Arsenal Need To Beat Man City | Fan Debate 2024

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0:32You will look back as Arsenal if you win on Sunday and win this league as the defining moment. Since Henry's come in at Aston Villa, we've just been on an upward trajectory. You've got it in you to sort of like wobble. But he's going to be involved. Clive, don't just look at this from an Arsenal point to you. It's disgraceful that we've let them off scot-free. It really is, honestly. How can you sign 36 players in your first season back in the Premier League? We could sneak into the Champions League through this fifth or something. It's just because it's United and I absolutely hate United. Where does the hate and despise come from?

1:02You.

1:09Hi everyone and welcome back to the Overlap Fan Debate, brought to you by Skybet and on the back of International Break, we're going to get right into the biggest talking points of the Premier League weekend. So it's been a busy International Break. I'm not a massive fan, as you know, of International Breaks, but how do you think it's gone? What are you not a fan of, just before we get into it? The fact that you're a sub for eight years. Yeah, I'm just bored. I don't know. Is it that exciting, international football? I must admit, I struggle with this one at this stage of the season. We said there'd be a lot of pull-outs, didn't we, a few weeks ago because of the time of the season with big games for clubs.

1:44And that's what's happened. And it just, at times, I think devalues probably the games. And you end up with sort of like half a team playing. Obviously, managers still get something out of it. but I think when you're in the midst of title running, Champions League, final stages, relegation battles, players, coaches, managers are just nervous as hell about getting injuries. Just have one. I don't understand why you need to have two. Just have one on the Saturday and then let the players get back. Give them an extra couple of days than what they'd normally have from an international break. Even from a fans' perspective, I don't think even fans like it at this time of the year, do you?

2:18No, definitely not. So I think this March friendly I think does need to be thought about moving forward quite a few players pulled out you called it didn't you? no I just knew it would happen because I mean it's so important for all these clubs and they'll all play at weekend I don't think there'll any player there isn't a player that's pulled out that I don't think they'll miss the game at weekend I get frustrated with Liverpool because I don't think we do it enough pull people out of internationals I was like Robertson getting injured yesterday I know but then Jürgen Klopp was saying telling him that it's out game to play Gomez I was like, oh.

2:53I know. No, I literally, I just don't want any of our players to play at all. Because obviously they don't really support England. And the moment I've seen them come on, I'm like, oh. I don't even watch it. My dad texts me Robbo down. I was like, oh, Christ. Well, Clive, what about the Arsenal pull-outs? Are the injuries or pull-outs? Well, the Saka one is, I think maybe that's a bit smart. Strategic. I think, well, I think he's got an injury. He's got an Achilles injury that he's managing. And they just thought, well, you know, I don't need to see you. so you go off we can have a look at Bowen we can have a look at Foden we can have a look at these players you get your legs up son you've got a big game coming up so that's what they did the Ben White one intrigues me because we were all in Qatar last year sort of and Ben White obviously they went home didn't he and it was a real difficult one at the time because obviously at the time the reason cited for him going home was mental health if you remember which meant that everyone obviously you know supported Ben said you know you know we hope he's well but two things happened one the news broke internally about the argument that he'd had in the camp so we all knew about it this was like so is it mental health or is it an argument and a fallout and the next thing was a week later he was pitched on a bike in Dubai with Arsenal at a camp so it was like hang on Dubai's only 45 minutes away from Qatar So if he was homesick and if he was struggling.

4:23So there was something that wasn't quite right. And then obviously the news broke in a couple of weeks ago that he said he doesn't want to play for England, doesn't want to be considered. And Gareth seemed to sort of say that as well in his sort of press conference. But Gareth then said that it then broke about the argument with Steve Holland and what Ben White had done. So something's happened there. What do you make of it, Clive? Because it's an interesting one. It's an interesting one. And too many people know the story. They know what happened with Steve Holland. and I think some of the reporting around it has been a little bit disingenuous.

4:55I think, from my angle, it's a failure of management, really, managing a different character, maybe, within a group. There are some people that suit a group, there are some people that suit a dressing room. But if someone's valuable and valued, you make them feel that way. If you feel, well, actually, he's down there, he's behind Dyer and Walker and Trippier and all these other players, he's probably thinking, I'm getting a bit of stick from the coaches. They don't really rate me. And so, you know what? I don't need to be here. If you're in an environment that's negative towards you, it can affect your primary environment at Arsenal.

5:30It can affect your confidence. So he removed himself from it. But what's happened? What's changed? What is the story, though, Clive? You said that too many people knew the story. What do you believe actually happened in Qatar? It's not even what I believe. If you look at, there's an article in The Telegraph this week, which really details it right down to the conversation. There's Nyko in the Athletic as well, which is pretty close. If that's the story, and if you know when these things break, there's normally more to it than that. And so he moved himself from the situation. My view is things have changed.

6:04Things have changed footballistically. When they first fell out, you've got Rhys James, you've got Trent running up and down as a right back, you've got Kyle Walker, you've got Trippier, and you've got Jaime Maguire playing centre-back. All these players are getting older. Some of them are injured. Trent really likes to be in midfield for England, so his position is slightly different. Suddenly, Ben White is killing it for Arsenal. Top of the Champions League, and Southgate thought, I'd better defend this first because someone's going to ask me, why isn't he here? Whereas when he was down the pecking order, no-one was worried.

6:40so his football play is really quite conducive to what England are doing and he's so tactically flexible he can play in a 3-2 build up he can be in a 2-3 build up he can also play on the outside overlapping how many England players can do that? I just want to come because I was in a similar situation I stopped playing for England the argument that was detailed in the press that we think has happened he was asking about his game and he asked something to Kyle Walker as well, didn't he? Maybe the game's coming up and maybe there was always this feeling that Ben White isn't a huge football fan in terms of watching football, which is fine.

7:20I don't actually think the argument, I know you may be having a pop at Steve Holland, but when I read it, I don't think it was the end of the world from both sides that it means that someone doesn't play again. But I think the fact that he was always probably felt like he was fourth or fifth church, because I had that feeling whenever I went to England. And rightly so. I was fourth or fifth choice and rightly so Ben White's fourth or fifth choice I'm being totally honest I think he's done a great job for Arsenal but he's not better than Trent Rich James, Kyle Walker or Trippier he's not you know so I was in that position and you do go there feeling that you're not rated's probably the wrong word there's just there's other people better than you and you're never really going to get that opportunity so I don't think it should be made into a huge study because number one he's not going to play anyway really and I think he will now though he's playing center back I think even I don't I don't know he would he think you play now so yeah I know you would you know I think you watch the claim send you didn't please send my first group carry you watch those if you watch those defenders that were playing for England last night Ben White's playing what would it's easy to say that now after the game but he wouldn't he doesn't play center back for his club and John Stones is the Ben White if you like it you're gonna play Ben White and John Stones together as center backs book as I said I think he's doing brilliant for Arsenal he's probably not sees himself right in there and I think Ben White's probably thinking you know what I can relax I can get ready for Arsenal I can enjoy my international breaks and you know what good look yeah it's outside to it but you know you sort of said he's behind Trippier I saw what's prepared this season and I don't think he is I'm talking in general of the last two or three years I'm not talking about like the last six weeks in the England environment he is behind Trippier maybe it's a football discussion then let's have that discussion about how we play but it's not a football discussion because because Trippier is one of the five captains, so he's going to be involved.

9:07Clive, don't just look at this from an arse to point to you. Trippier has had a bad three or four months for the last two or three years. He's been a brilliant player for England. Absolutely. And England managers at times, and rightly so, and I think we forget this as fans, they pick players on their England performance. Sometimes we'll say, this one's not playing well for his club, he should be ahead of them. But sometimes a manager's got to go, who's done well for me? Who's actually put that England shirt on in a big game with the added pressure that you have maybe differently and all the focus is on England.

9:35So I don't have a problem with... One last question on Ben White. How does it resolve itself? Because obviously I think that he would be in the top seven or eight defenders in this country at this moment in time, irrespective of what Cara says about whether he'll be in the team or not. Who backs down before summer? How do you resolve this? Does Ben White change his mind? Or is it a case of now, I'm not going to play for England whilst the current management are there? It seems clear there's a breakdown in a relationship. That's what it seems like from the outside. So who wants to fix that? Is it the player or is it the management?

10:08If they want to fix it and they value each other, then they can fix it. If they don't value each other, they just stay like it is. And that's the same for any of us who go to work right now. If you're not respected, not valued, you worry about it a little bit. So that's my view on it. It's a simple relationship breakdown that needs to be resolved if they want to. It's interesting because when I was with England, And it never broke. I'm not going to name who the player is, to be honest with you. But as a player pulled out, he was there for three or four days. He just didn't want to be there. He just didn't enjoy it, didn't like it.

10:39We never picked him again. He came and saw, he didn't come and see me. He went and saw Roy and said, look, it's just not for me, this. And we probably played, I'm trying to think back to our time, I'm trying to think of a couple of players who think, they didn't really want to be there. You know what I mean? Scolzi, after the Euros in 2004. For whatever that reason it is, and I'm not quite sure to this day, Some people say it's because he's playing on the left. Some people say it's because he just didn't like being away from home. Obviously, maybe that both may be true. But he never turned up again.

11:08He never played again. He said, I'm done. And so there is maybe a little bit of that with Ben, that he actually just likes the idea of playing for his club, doesn't like the idea of being away from England. So it's not everyone's cup of tea, is it? Well, the main thing from that, from your point of view, is that means that he's going to be fit for the weekend. Yeah, he's going to be fit, along with all the other Arsenal players. So, Jay, Kobi Mainu last night was very impressive, wasn't he? I was really impressed with him. I was worried when he got pitched, not that he wouldn't do well, but he might get a bit of stick if he made a mistake or whatever.

11:37And I thought Southgate actually handled it really well. Giving him 15 minutes against Brazil made a lot of sense to me. Just giving him that little cameo, did well in it. And then starting him against Belgium and getting player of the match, it just shows the talent of him and the maturity he's got. And I thought the midfield of him, Rice and Bellingham, just worked really well together. The thing I loved about last night is, and I think before the game, I was watching the people talking about him. I think there's this thing being built and that he's this like holding the field player. I don't really see it.

12:03He looks like someone who, he dribbles, he runs forward. So I don't actually think he is that because there's talk about maybe United sort of maybe needs a holding the field player. Casemiro might move on. I don't think he's that. I don't know what you think watching, but certainly last night, that thing where he just turned and he's just running at people centrally and he's all over the pitch. I mean, I thought that performance last night was sensational. I did. And sometimes you look at a young player, it feels like it happens every tournament. And we're talking about these March international breaks.

12:35It just feels like this time of the season, someone really young who you're out of nowhere, just, you know, whether it was Rooney, whether it was Michael Owen, whether it was Bellingham a couple of years ago, they just go, we know for a fact this kid's on the plane now, I think, on the back of last night. And you're actually looking at that first 11 and thinking, I mean, you don't want to get carried away on one game, but it's like, because there's no options in central midfield, really. He's definitely going. I just bet that he plays now. He's definitely going. I mean, I think for me, the one thing that is absolutely, in all of those plays, you know, Michael Owen or Jude Bell, his temperament, from the first game, his first three games were away, I think, Anfield, St.

13:18James' Park and Goodison Park. You can't play at those grounds sometimes when you've got 50 games without having real difficulties, like sort of nervousness, anxious, going under. He literally, just in the first three games, he felt like he was at home. Last night when I was watching England play, and I don't know whether it'll be like that in the summer, you mentioned that three midfield of Rice, Bellingham and Manu. It felt like for the first time, I'm not going to say ever, because that might be too strong a statement, it felt like I was watching a Portuguese or Brazilian midfield where they were rotating.

13:53And I thought, do you know something? And when you say, is he a holding midfield player? The answer's yes and no. I believe he's not. In the sense that when he actually goes back to defending his own box, his positions are fantastic and his awareness of danger and runs into the box and actually, to be fair, blocking pullbacks and things like that. It was incredible for a young player. But also last night when he, there was a moment in the second half where Doku went past him and he got back at Doku and took the ball off him, do you remember? And then he went and slid in. You can't do that unless you're, I always think Owen Hargreaves could do that for Manchester United.

14:24Owen Hargreaves was a great tackler in midfield. He'd go and take the ball off people. He's got that about him where he goes and takes the ball off people. Because if me and you were playing against Doku and Doku was running out... Once he's gone, he's gone. Once he's gone, we ain't getting back at him. Also, we drop off him to make sure that he's making pass it. He will go and think, I'm going to take the ball off Doku. There are very few players like that. But the thing you just said then, the England game... I mean, the results haven't been obviously great in the last two games, but I actually watched that last night.

14:50and Oli, should I ask you about Foden? You said it looked almost like a Portuguese pursuit. Yeah, it's almost like it felt like. And I felt that was one of the best I'd seen Foden playing in the shirt in that I actually seen him as if he was playing for Man City where he gets the ball and he's actually running out of defence and when you say about the movement in midfield it was interesting watching it last night he almost played Foden as a number 10 with Bellingham and Chilwell's job was basically to just cover the whole left side and I thought that's really good going forward if you have that forward in midfield you have Declan Rice Maynou, Foden and Jude Bellingham.

15:22Will he stay like that? No, I think Foden has to play in the team. What were your thoughts watching Foden last night, Oli? I think, you know, positionally it worked really well. And it's the first time that I've seen Foden play in this position over two games for England, whereby, you know, on the team sheet, he's starting on a left or right wing, but he's coming more centrally like he does for Man City. And he sort of had that freedom for the first time. It seemed a lot in the past like Gareth Southgate, when he has played Foden, has wanted him more regimented out on that wing. And he sort of, maybe it's because of the position that he's been playing this season, where he's been coming more centrally for City.

15:56You know, he's finally said, OK, well, actually, let's get you in that space as well. You know, when we've got the ball, we'll have you in that central, you know, sort of position, give you that ability to flow. And I think it works really well as well. You know, I think going back to Kobe Main, who just touched on him, he's brilliant at sort of breaking the lines and then giving that, you know, permission to Jude Bellingham and Foden to get forward with the ball. We saw it last night for the penalty. Kobe Mayne, who obviously had that fantastic breakaway, attracted defenders towards him, managed to pass the ball off to Bellingham and it then leads to a penalty.

16:24I think the players who are going to benefit from that the most come the summer are Foden and Bellingham. I think the partnership that they struck up last night going forward was fantastic. You kept interchanging, didn't you? That's what I watched last night because you're thinking of the two best players we've got. I'd say Bellingham and Foden. It was just that combined with each other and combination play. You look in both of those games, you look at Bowen and you look at Gordon who started on either wing in both of those games, they did stick within that regimented position of either left or right wing because they suit it and that works for them.

16:55But then when we had the ball, Foden did have that freedom and that just seemed to work. It meant that we were overloading the Belgian midfield and defence. Cobby Mayne was breaking the lines. Despite the result last night, I actually thought we played really attractive football going forward and we had some really good breakaways. Obviously, it didn't quite convert into chances. Maybe we missed Harry Kane in that number nine position. but I think, you know, despite the results, that's a big positive that I'm taking, is Phil Foden finally looks comfortable in an England team. Do you think England obviously can win it?

17:24But do you think there's, like, do you really believe England are going to win the tournament? They've got a real chance, I always think, and to be fair, it is defensively that I always think there is a concern. And I've thought that from sort of day one, that in the big moments, in the big matches, there'll be that element of concentration. I'm not quite sure that our centre-backs are good enough to win the tournament. That's the only question mark I've got. I agree. I'm with the same views, agree? Yeah. Baz? Bramthwaite was on the bench, he never got any minutes. No, I was poor from Southgate, I thought that, to be honest with you.

18:00I thought Saturday he could have gone strong and sent a lot of the lads back who are involved at the top end of the table and maybe mixed it up for this one a little bit. But obviously Lewis Dunks made an error last night which led to a goal. I would have liked to see Brantway kind of what he did with me you know just put him on for 15 and just get him in there because not calling him like bigging him up saying he should be playing for England but he's had a great season and that's the reward and if you are genuinely thinking about taking him why not just blood him a little bit I'm speaking to Conor Cody a while ago and he was like there were so many groups he went with and didn't get on at first or then when he was involved Southgate didn't use him or whatever and he wasn't having a go he's like that's just the way it is but I think for young players when you're integrating them I mean, you two have played for England, so you would know better than me.

18:44But sometimes, would a 10 minutes, would 15 minutes make a difference to feel comfortable in that environment? Yeah, I just think that thing of going on there, because I always think the big thing with England is not actually the quality of who you're playing against. I always felt that I played at a higher level with the Champions League, but there's a different sort of feel with England that, I don't know if it's the pressure or the eyes on you, or, you know, there's a pressure with playing in England, not necessarily because of the quality you're playing against, It's just the fact that you're playing for England.

19:17Shall we get to the Premier League? The big game at the weekend, Clive? What game? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Is this make or break for you? You know my views. Not really. For me, it's... So if you got beat against Manchester City, you still believe Arsenal can win? For me, it's important not to lose. That's where I am with it. I'm not going to change my position. I'm more confident this year than last year only because of the various ways we can play so we've been keeping teams with territorial dominance in their own half we can do that, last year City went long on us, I think we can manage the long ball a lot better, we're a lot bigger physically and we're a lot better across the ground, if they press us back we've got a goalkeeper who look after the ball and we can hit a 6ft 4 centre forward so we can also mid-block on like we did in the home game and just make sure that when we regain possession, we don't get too excited and give them the ball back and then they take us.

20:11Because when City get you on the counter press, they go to the exact hole that you don't want them to go. They run straight in there and they double up and they take you. They're very smart. So I think the way we play now, we've got more ways of playing to manage what they might do. And so I'm really excited. The reason why I'm excited is not because we're going to win or we're going to draw, but if we find something else out, We need to find it out real quick. Because this team needs to progress. Are they going to progress by experience? It's a beautiful game for Arsenal in the sense. It's a beautiful game for us to watch Arsenal.

20:45To think about the fact that you go back 12 months and there's a direct parallel between last season and this season. And I always said at the end of last season when they obviously struggled, I just want to see them in that same situation again, on a run-in, against City, against the big teams and see how they handle it. And I think we all probably feel the same, that we're a lot more confident this year that Arsenal are going to handle this game better than they did last year. Because last year, to be fair, they'd already started to dip a little bit. This is the start of the running. It's real.

21:17It's happening now. And you know, obviously, on Sunday, it's huge. It's a crossroads game. I think these games sometimes can signify... You can sometimes speak too big as a pundit, but they can sometimes signify, they can sometimes create history. You will look back as Arsenal, if you win on Sunday, and win this league as the game, as the defining moment. There are all these games over the years that you look back on in 15, 20 years. That match is here now. I'm not saying there isn't eight games to go and there isn't other big tests. You could win on Sunday and then lose three games after that, but I don't think you would.

21:51I think if you won Sunday, the confidence and belief would be huge and cities would be dented slightly. So to me, it's a defining game for that group of players and for that manager. As a young manager, he's got to show and demonstrate that he can live in that arena, which he has done now for two years with Klopp, with Guardiola, and handled these big moments? That could be, with Jürgen Klopp going, you think of that rivalry now between the master and the apprentice, in some ways, Pep, they are tested. It could get a good chance of getting each other in the Champions League. And you think over the next two or three years, that could be the big rivalry between the two managers.

22:25But, Clive, you haven't won there since 2015. You seem confident you can go and get there and do something a little bit different. The thing for me with Arsenal, I think, different. You've mentioned you've got more physicality with Saliba playing and Declan Rice in there. The thing with Arsenal which is interesting is that you've actually beaten City this season. Liverpool and City have both drew against each other. Liverpool have lost to Arsenal and drew, I think. So, I mean, if you could go and beat City twice, out of these three teams who are going for the title, you're the only team then who've actually won in this little sort of round.

23:00Robin, that must give you a massive belief. It does. I think our defensive structures look quite good. Everything looks good. When Kevin Dubroiler runs around the corner and runs downhill, then you find out how good your defence is, right? But we have, he didn't play in the league game, but he played in the community shield, and he was effective, but I do think we are more able to control them, and I think it's really important that we, it's about where we play, we do squeeze teams back a little bit, and we're confident to do that. We talked about England earlier on, and England tried that against Brazil, to squeeze up.

23:34they squeezed up and gave away seven big chances because their defenders can't run backwards our defenders can run backwards and I think it's important that we have that confidence to squeeze people in and then control the regain to go from there Just Clab, on the running I think you need to win on Sunday because you've always got to imagine that City are going to be perfect you've always got to imagine that unfortunately we've got this point of the season where they can go and win eight matches on the bounce I don't think Arsenal will so the reason I say I think you have to win is because I'm not quite sure who else is going to take points off City on the journey now of course they could drop points, it can happen it's football, but that's why I think it's so important that you walk away from there on Sunday with a point, of course City are probably disappointed with a point but I think to damage them and to give you the full belief, I do think you need to win No, I was looking at it, I actually think 90 points I was looking at the points on the international break about what you might need to do and that would mean I think 90 points that would be Liverpool dropping four points from where they are that would be Manchester City I think so City dropped four points and Liverpool did the same I think Liverpool are a point ahead of them I actually think everyone is looking at Arsenal's fixtures and thinking I could see Arsenal dropping more than four points with the away games that you've got so again I go back to what Gary said I think winning there not just psychologically but obviously for the points situation and I think the belief it will give you in the other away games as well, that you can go to City and win.

25:05You'll believe you can go to Old Trafford and win. You can believe you'll go to Tottenham and win. They're still not easy games, are they? They're not easy games. I think what's new for us and new for me is really the schedule. It's come out now, what we're going to be doing, and it literally is every three or four days. We haven't done a Champions League quarterfinal for 14 years. So the emotional impact of that is unknown to us. We're saying you get to the semi against City. Yeah. And then Liverpool City, they're thinking, if from this day onwards, if Arsenal got to play City three times for the end of the season, that's going to have an impact to us, without a doubt.

25:38So to counter that, this is the thing that we're unsure of. We are getting some of our key bench players fitter. And I think we're going to need them because the schedule is really unforgiving. And so the people who are not playing at the moment hold the key for us going forward. Oli, what are your thoughts? He seems confident, doesn't he? yeah well I think there's no there's no reason not to be but at the same time you know I'm going to back City aren't I mean we're in the position that we need to be and it's the position that we find ourselves in time and time again which is you know as a fan absolutely glorious coming back from the international break still being in three competitions and you know like Clive just said dealing with that schedule that is something that we have done time and time again and we've got that experience and for me the experience is still maybe the thing that we're relying on which is an absolutely brilliant thing to be able to rely on but you know I don't think we've lost a game since December 22 games undefeated we've gone in all competitions so you know maybe the football is not as fluid as it has been in previous seasons but we are getting the results and you know we're starting to put that pressure on so I do kind of feel like it's on Arsenal to come to us and and sort of make that statement like you said they've not won there since 2015 I don't think that plays too much into it but what what I do think plays into it is the fact that it's at the Etihad, it's that sort of same parallel fixture to last year.

26:58Man City are never not going to believe that they can win a big game like this. Do you believe you need to win this game to win the league? No, I don't think so. I'm a similar position. I don't want us to lose. That's the big thing. I don't want us to lose the game. But we do have a very tough run in as well. Admittedly, we've got Arsenal and then midweek we've got Aston Villa. And then we've also got to go to Spurs away. We've not won a Premier League game at the new Spurs ground. So we've got those games that could trip us over. When Gary says, I can't see City dropping points over eight games, you know, it could happen.

27:32But I just sort of think, as I go back to that experience, I'm always going to back City when it comes to the running because we've done it time and time again in the Premier League. We've now obviously got the experience of finally doing it in the Champions League and getting over the line. And, you know, those big games, I think, you know, come to the Etihad on Sunday, I just, I back us, I back us. I still think right now, I think most people probably an area around the country still believe City will win the league. But I think if Arsenal do get something, maybe Liverpool won before the game, if Arsenal won, I think you'll believe you can win the league.

28:04Liverpool, if that game's a draw, you go two points clear maybe at the top. Abi, how would you be feeling going into the Brighton game from a Liverpool point of view and then obviously keeping your eye on the game later? I think it's probably a good game for us to be going into at home on Easter Sunday. I think we needed that international break after losing a game from United. I honestly think that they needed a bit of a break to sit on it, you know. I know I did. Yeah, I think we bounced back well after getting beat by Arsenal, so hopefully we can still have that same sort of bounce back. I think a draw is probably the best thing for us and then just let us gain points, but I'm starting to get a little bit scared of Arsenal now.

28:40Arsenal are worrying, mate. Abi, I want to ask you something, because I was thinking about this, with Liverpool point of view, you're home for a draw, they both drop points. What do you think would be better if one team won? Would it be better if City won or better if Arsenal won? If I had to pick one, I'd probably say Arsenal, just because I'm so scared of City still. I'm just terrified of them because of how many times it's happened to us and I keep saying it, but I'm getting scared of Arsenal now, I am, to be honest. You have to. You'd rather have Arsenal? I'd rather Arsenal. One? Because I can see Arsenal.

29:12I mean, if you're sitting on Sunday, to be honest with you, I'm almost, in some ways, I might say it's game over, but... It feels game over for me. It just would be very difficult psychologically. They're experienced, then they're on that run, the 22-game run, they're coming back. The only reason I totally agree with you... You'd want Arsenal to win Sunday, surely. No, yes. From a Liverpool perspective, I mean. But my point being is, I think even if City lost on Sunday, they can still win the league. I think they can still win the league. I think if Arsenal get beat, I don't see how they can win the league.

29:43I agree. So my point from a Liverpool, I've been thinking, surely you'd want City to lose. but I actually think City can still win the league if they get beat. I don't see Arsenal winning the league if they get beat. And it's only like two points. So then my point would be, and from a Liverpool point of view, would be you're actually fighting against one team. Now, I know the points wouldn't be that much, but I just think psychologically it would affect you. City would jump above you. Liverpool, you'd probably expect to beat Brighton at home, would then be above you. And I just think it'd be tough for you to come back from that.

30:12Yeah, maybe. But hey, look, why should anyone trust us in this running? Why? Because we haven't done this before. So we have to build that trust. It starts on Sunday. We have to build it. We have to show people we've got the mentality to go to these places you said earlier and say, you know what? We're not worried about this anymore. We've finally gone to Manfield and not been done fours and fives. We've gone to Spurs and we've covered that situation and we just need to go to Manchester, basically. It's a big moment for all those players. Yeah, of course. But, Abi, I want to go back to the Manchester because I haven't revisited that yet the Manchester FA Cup game and OJ's to your side there but you said you needed a break I mean how did you feel on the back of that game and how do you think that it will affect the team going forward hence you know going to Old Trafford as well so quickly if we'd have lost to anyone else I'd have been sitting on it alright it's just because it's United and I absolutely hate United no offence we've become great that's not very nice I'd have been if you didn't I just absolutely despised them so it's just sitting with me in a really bad way.

31:19The fact that they're able to stop us from going for that quadruple is just the worst thing of all the teams that could have done it. It's used, and I know you just love the fact that you were the ones that were able to do that for us, but I still feel like we can go on and win a treble, though. Jay, how do you think that will affect Manchester United going forward? And also the young players. It was an unbelievable victory for you, wasn't it? No, it was. I'm glad I'm still getting to talk about it, to be honest with you. I thought we might have moved on, but it was massive because going into that game, you feared the worst.

31:45There was a lot of pressure on the players, the manager as well. To lose at home to Liverpool, they were chasing that quadruple. Would have been devastating. And it wasn't just the fact we won, it was the way we did it. I think with Tanaj, there's people sort of doubting him because of the results we've had. You've got Ineos waiting, are they going to back him or whatever. But he got his tactics right, he went for it, he brought on attacking players, he played it the right way, the way you'd want to win a game of football. The atmosphere was fantastic and a few of the players, like the younger players, steps up mainly, he's been great anyway, he was fantastic.

32:13and then some of the fringe players like Anthony Diallo, players we've not really seen much of this season, got the goals as well. And I think that it just gives him that little bit of an edge now where fans who maybe were doubting him, we've got something to look forward to because, I mean, I've always backed him anyway, but there's some that are going, is he the right guy? If you're looking forward to just a top four race or a top five race, it's nothing to look forward to. That's a fan. But now we go to Wembley, we could win a trophy. You've got an FA Cup semi-final on the horizon. There's just a bit more hope and expectation.

32:41And plus, when you see the reaction from Liverpool fans, Can I give you my take on it? I know I went on holiday, didn't I?

32:49When you're saying stop to get in the quadruple, no one's ever done that before, won four trophies. And I go back to what Liverpool did a couple of years ago, where they're going for it. And they actually end up losing out on the two biggest ones in terms of the league and the Champions League. So I don't think there's any way Liverpool are going to win four trophies. And I actually, at the start of the FA Cup run, when Liverpool played that, I wanted Liverpool to get beat that game. once the game starts you always want your team to win don't you I was a little bit like that in the United game but then the way United won it was just like oh my god it was just celebrating and sending messages and stuff like that but I actually think with the two week break you can almost go surely that can help you slightly a small percentage in terms of the league so if Liverpool would have gone through I think they would have had basically a midweek game every single week if they get to the Europa League final.

33:41And they'd have had one the last week of the season between Villa and Wolves. That's when the Fulham game may have gone, I think, which was the semi-final. So I'm trying to take the positives from it that it might be something that they can take, basically. Because I think in that season a couple of years, Liverpool just completely ran out of steam, didn't they? In the last couple of weeks of the season. We did completely run out of steam, but at the same time, I mean, it still got down to the last game of the season and we still got to the final of the Champions League. so I don't see that we ran out of steam in just those last couple of games.

34:11I mean, obviously it was in City's hands, but I feel like of all the games I wanted us to lose, it probably would have been this one, as long as we don't get beaten. It was the way we lost, wasn't it? It was the way that we lost. I think if we'd have lost on penalties, you'd have just gone, I think it was our fault, though. I mean, all right, you did all right, but I honestly think... We did all right. You did all right, but I honestly think we lost that game. You didn't go and win it. We were poor. We switched off at times. I'd say the opposite, because I think we went for it. We ended up the game with Bruno Fernandes, Anthony and I think the lower sum...

34:41Anthony scored in defence. He proper went for it, Tanad. I respected that and I think that was the way to go about it. He didn't try and play for penalties. Had he played for penalties, I wouldn't have blamed him because we've got a pretty bad record against Liverpool. You think, OK, it's a bit of a lottery. But he went for it, threw on a load of attackers, just kept going. I thought we'd lost it when Marcus missed that chance at the end. I thought that's going to come back to bite us. Offside, that belief. I was glad to hear that. I was relieved because I felt for him, but he kept going, got his goal, and obviously, at the end, I've never seen anything like it.

35:12It was just fantastic. Where does the hate and despise come from? You.

35:19Where does it come from? United? Yeah. Are you messing? I hate you so much as ever. Aye, aye, I've said nothing. United in the last 12 years, sort of like 13 years, have not been sort of like a threat to Liverpool. It's almost like I thought you might have moved. He's just integrated into you, though, isn't it? That's the way it shifts in. I thought you might have moved on like him. Gary, it's always been like, when United winning titles and Liverpool were in it, we still hate him. Oh, no, my childhood was ruined. It's absolutely... Liverpool won everything, so for me, it's quite obvious where it came from.

35:52That's the way it should be, it's built in. Flav, Oli, let's get these back in. Just want a score prediction. That's a tough one. I'm going to go 3-1 to City. Just FYI. It seems to be Pep Guardiola's favourite scoreline at the moment. We are struggling to keep clean sheets and we have obviously got Edison out. There's a couple of defensive worries as well, obviously with Stones and Walker during the international break. But going to back us, 3-1, strong performance. I think we'll do it 2-1. I think City are very good in the first phase of the game. They like to control the scoreboard. if we're still nil-nil 20 minutes, we're going to be in.

36:34The moment is here. It's a 20-minute game.

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37:20Alex, we're going to move on to spares. About time. I know, we haven't had too much arse, haven't we? What are your thoughts now, where you find yourselves now? in that battle for the top four. It's interesting now. Obviously, last week's result was a kick in the gut. After a performance like that against Villa and then to almost revert back to old Spurs and go and do that the week after was really disappointing. And I think that's the first time that Postacoglu's come out and said that he was unhappy with a particular half of football, that we weren't doing the things that we've worked at all year.

37:51Even the games, you know, four full-backs defending at the Etihad and stuff, but we still did everything that we did. The Chelsea game, you know, we stuck to those principles and that just seemed to kind of just whisper away a little bit against Fulham were very good I must say he played played really really well but this journey is about is going to be about us progressing in his image because he's not going to change his style of play he's not going to change we talk about it and the full backs and people moving about and if you actually look at your back four and look at them individually and you'd say a doggie's done well at left back poros done well at right back van de Ven's obviously had injury problems but he's always looked, everyone says he looks fantastic.

38:27Romero's a World Cup winner. So individually, you look like you've got a really good back four but you can just concede so many goals. And I think that's going to be part of them. It's still been such a short amount of time that he's here and this style of play and this way that he wants people to defend in an attacking way almost is going to happen. We heard from Celtic fans in the summer saying, look, there's going to be days like Fulham that happen and you're going to concede a lot of chances. But the question for us is going to be for him. He's talked about Champions League and being asked lots of questions about when finishing fourth, finishing fifth.

39:02And his aim is it's more important that I see if it's progressing in this image because we're going to have the summer, we're going to have January and we'll go again. And I think that has happened. We've had some ups and downs. We've had some terrible injuries, as has everyone, I appreciate. But we're definitely moving in the right direction. I think it's going to be about depth for us, because as soon as you take Udagi out, Porro out, Van der Verne, and as we saw when that happened, it's a struggle. It's a real struggle. Spurs have always been a team fighting for the top four. I think there was one season of the pot you fought for the title.

39:35I mean, when he's saying this is going to take time, how long is this project? What is success for Spurs and Postacoglou? I think his ambition, and obviously it's his ambition, but I genuinely think he believes that his job here is to bring a culture of success to Tottenham. Just in the mentality of the club, first and foremost. Challenging for the Premier League title. And whether that is how long that takes, we're in an amazing financial position now. Daniel Levy has his critics, me being one of the biggest ones. But we're in a position now where we've got this huge safety net of money that we can spend.

40:09We have to, at some point, be seen to go and do it. and he's got away with it, Levy, this year because, you know, at the end of last year, Kane going, Posse Coglu has brought in such a feel-good factor around the club because if you're not winning every week and you're not top and you're not fighting for a chance, you've got to be enjoying watching your football every week. It's vital, particularly for a club like Tottenham where the history is based around that anyway. But success should be challenged for a title and I think the summer and January, we should be seeing that we are at least getting towards that aspect.

40:47So you feel like you've got the right manager, it's just whether the owner fully backs him and really goes for him? Yeah, I love Ange. It's nice to actually like a manager that you've got, which I haven't for the last four years. And is he the man that comes and changes everything? I don't know, yeah. He's at a level that he's not been at before as well, which I think he'd readily admit. but the way he talks, the way players talk about him, it does give me hope but actually, yeah, do you know what? We've got one here. Do you ever see Spurs challenging for a title or winning a title? It's just not something we've ever been brought up with or seen.

41:23We did, under Pochettino in that season where they got champion. Do you think they were going to win the league? No, but I think that's where they got sort of closest to winning major trophies. no I don't and it's not maybe because of what Tottenham do it's more because of what the others are doing and I don't think he's ever going to you said he's got that sort of reserve of cash he's just never going to do what even Arsenal have done to be honest with you in the last few years the Kroenke family why not? I just don't think he's got it in him it's not his nature it's not what he does Costa Coglu?

41:55no Daniel Levy spending the money to get to a level whereby they can compete with Arsenal with City with United, with Chelsea. I just don't... These clubs are monsters when it comes to cash and putting money into it. I think there is a crunch point now, though, because we've had everything in terms of, you know, we had a 36 ,000-seater stadium, then we've got to build the stadium, Wembley, COVID, everything now. You know, the figures for this year, their figures are going to come out in the next couple of weeks and it's going to show a lot of positives in terms of the numbers. Why can't Tottenham do what Liverpool and Arsenal have done?

42:27I personally agree. And I think... Lever's excuse, but his reason has always been, look, this financial stuff is coming down the pipeline. We've had the stadium overspent. We've had COVID. Now we're just building up to a stage. There's not going to be any more excuses now. There's not going to be any more excuses. He still have to basically take his wallet out of his pocket and spend it. And just from a point of view of how he's operated for all those years, I accept obviously there may be more revenue now in the stadium. But, you know, Liverpool have... Will he go and do an Alisson and Van Dijk?

43:00Will he go and spend 160, 170, 180 million on two players to change the whole dynamic of the club? If you think about what Arsenal have done with 100 million on Declan Rice, will he go and do that? Has he got it in him to do that? I don't know. I really want to think that it could be because there are lots of bad football club owners in this country and he, despite the stick, and he manages to shoot himself in the foot at least once, 6 % season ticket rises the other week after we've just had a great result against Villa. Any good feeling he gets, he always seems to knock it back. But there is a chance for them to do that now.

43:36Before, I think a lot of us have accepted... But will he do it? I always think there has been a real... I think if he doesn't do it now, then he never will. Culturally, to shift the balance, you talked about Liverpool and what Arsenal have done, to shift that mentality. They've had to go and do something big. Liverpool did two big, massive, huge deals. That comes from money of Coutinho. Liverpool have never sort of just... But he's still had to go and spend it. Yeah, of course he's got to go and spend it. And that's what Tottenham are going to do. As he's saying, this is the first time it feels like they are actually in a position where they've got a stadium to bring their money in.

44:11How can Arsenal be financially stronger than Spurs now when you've got this stadium? I know maybe being in the Champions League for a few years, I get that. But in terms of really breaking the bank and trying to make that next step, I think Spurs have got to do that. I think you're right. I'm not sure. Part of the bit that feels to me that he probably won't go and do that is because there has been a shift in terms of recruitment in the last year, in terms of a lot more data-led. Their club have been quite proactive in making sure that fans know that this is data-led and the type of signings like with Doggy and Sarr.

44:38Yeah, but that's what everyone does now, isn't it? Yeah, but that's what I think. They've gone down this route, particularly with the new football director as well. I'm not sure whether he would go and pull those big monies out of the way. I said a few years ago, and it was criticised at the time, that I think he's the best operator in football, because actually if you look at what he's done off the pitch, there is no one, I think, apart from Manchester City with their endless cash that they have, has developed their stadium training ground in the way in which he's taught them off. No one. It's unbelievable what he's done.

45:08The problem is he's never really got it right on the football side. He's always wanted to keep a sort of tight rein on that side of it. If he just let that go, which he probably won't because he's demonstrated he won't, and he allowed to take the shackles off a little bit, there could be a chance that he could challenge but I'm not sure he will ever do that you actually look with Arsenal and Tottenham before Arteta came in where basically Tottenham finished above Arsenal for about five or six years in a row something like that and I think the job Arteta's done is brilliant he got them to a certain level and then what you're talking about Liverpool Liverpool did the same and then they had to go Van Dijk-Alisson so he's had to go so the Declan Rice he spent big money on Havert whether that takes you to a title we'll see but he had to get them to a certain level and that's what Poster Coglu's probably trying to do now and then it is up to basically Daniel Levy in the next 18 months to go and buy that but we've seen it before you know Conte we finish fourth they bottle finishing fourth and we nick it at the end and then you're thinking well Champions League a manager like Conte now's the time to go and they did to an extent and it's not that we haven't spent money we have spent money I mean we spent almost 65 million on about four years ago the fellas in midfield

46:25And that's his defence, that they do go and spend the money. And OK, it's not worked out. But I think he's, like I said, from the fans' perspective, for the people that are against Levy, and I think everywhere falls somewhere in between, is that these moments are where you've then got to go and push. And he's had these excuses or genuine reasons all the way up until now. But now there's a time where you have to, if you're serious about it, then you're going to have to go and do it and this will be the test. Luke, are you in a position, similar position with Aston Villa? Slightly different to our clubs, sort of different in the mould that we're not a traditional big six club so we're having to try and pave that gap and close it down slightly.

47:09So, you know, we've just signed a new kit deal with Batano, 40 million, 20 million over each year. Last season it was like 8 million So we're trying to bring in more revenue to be able to spend more money and try and compete. But, you know, this season... Rupertano? What's that, sorry? Rupertano. Yeah, on the front, yeah. So, you know, it's£8 million and now it's£20 million a year. So we're slowly getting there. I think that's about the seventh hoist in the Premier League. So on that side of things, we're kind of getting there. And with Monchi coming in and his recruitment model of trying to bring in younger players, it feels like there's a long-term vision of how our recruitment policy is going to go.

47:50So, you know, as the years go on, these players can come in with signs. Sousa from Arsenal, a young left-back. Nadelkovic, a hot prospect from European football. So, that side of things, our model's changing. So, as a Villa fan, it's really exciting. And, you know, we're still fourth. We're still competing there. And hopefully we can get over the line. Luke, because I don't want to go back into the FFP stuff and Naber, I know you're sort of on the brink or close to that. Can it ever get better for Aston Villa than where you are right now? Yeah, it can, but we've got to move quickly and move fast and try and seize this position that we're in at the minute.

48:28You know, corporate, commercial, match day, we're a million miles off it from these big six clubs. And our owners are ambitious, but we've got to find ways strategically to close that gap. So, you know, we've got a new kit deal with Adidas coming in next season. so that's going to bring in more money. We've got that Batano, like I say. It was going to have a stadium expansion of the North Stand so they were going to knock the North Stand down and redevelop it and now they've put that on hold. Which one's that one? Which stand's that? Opposite the Holt End. So now we're not doing that, it's been put on hold because at the minute Villa have got a problem of fans leaving the stadium and getting home.

49:07There's not enough trains, there's not enough ways for fans to disperse the ground So they've put that on hold. And then there's the other idea of potentially maybe one day Villa having to maybe move stadium. You know, we see Man United want this Wembley of the North. You know, Villa have got to be clever. And to fans, it's disappointing thinking, OK, we might leave our stadium. But we've got to fix up and get with it quick. Otherwise, you're going to get left behind. And our owners want to compete. So we've just got to try and do what we can. Do you see Villa getting top four? Got Wolves of the weekend.

49:41I don't think you can call it. It is close because we got absolutely smashed against Spurs and then we draw to West Ham and then they lose to Fulham. So I do think it's going to be very close. It feels like you're both not sure. That United defeat at Fulham at home was an absolute shocker. I think we'll look back on that in the end of the season. I think if United have had them extra three points, then they'd have been right in it. I think they're just a little bit too far off it. We've got, obviously, Liverpool coming up in a couple of weeks. You still believe when United can get top four? You've always still had that belief.

50:19You're the same, Jay? Part of me feels like we could. Because it's like no-one wants it. We're not that far away. Villa will drop points, Spurs will drop points. Shall we? Yeah, we do. And the Fulham game was a shocker. I also thought the Spurs game as well at home, when to take the lead twice and not win, was just really frustrating. The Fulham one was only three weeks ago, and it was 3.40. It was like, oh, it was a shocker that one. Who are you more worried about? Manchester United or Spurs coming for that position? I've been hurt by Man United a lot. Last-minute goals my whole life. So, they sort of do worry me.

50:52And they always do it, don't they? Remember, Leicester were sort of, after they won the league, they kept trying to get top four and it was always like United that get in there. No, I think it's us and Spurs. I think I can see United dropping more points than Villa. We're nine points in front of them with nine games to go. Those games are... They're disappearing, aren't they? You'd have to blow up. United will drop pot. This coming week, we've got Wolves on Saturday, we've got City on Wednesday, and then we've got Brentford on Saturday. So there's only six games after that. So I think if we're in an all right position after that...

51:31Emery's not mentioned the top four this season. He keeps saying at the 33-game mark, then I'll talk about it and I think he feels like if he can get there he can manage it that's how I feel

51:50Jay, how do you think Manchester United can get there? You're excited for the end of the season with the FA Cup obviously still to come I think it's going to be difficult because like you say we've got big games we've got to play Arsenal we've got to play Liverpool we can't get a run together every time it looks like we've turned a corner I've been saying this since 2014 but you'll think we're going to turn a corner then we'll lose at home to Fulham or Bournemouth or whoever. We've had some pretty horrific results so I'm kind of with Gary, I feel like it would take Villa or Spurs to almost implode.

52:17You said before you still back the manager, if the managers didn't get top four and City maybe beat you in the FA Cup final, would that be enough for the managers to stay? For me it would. I'd like to see him being given a chance under this new structure, I'd like to see him being being given a chance with some of the players that he's had missing coming back in. Martinez is a big loss for us. I know every team has injuries, but we've had a lot of injuries this season. We've had no Luke Shaw for half a season. Maynou, who we've seen since he's come back from injury, has been vital. He was missing for the first sweaty games or whatever it was.

52:48So I just feel that if you are going to bring in a director of football, have Omar Brad has come in and he seems to have a good CV and knows about football, give the manager an opportunity. I'd give him one season because this season has been a bit of a disaster, but he did well in his first season and even this season we're still in a well you know a cup semi-final we should beat coventry we should and another final so it's not i know famous last words that'll get clips of actually both about the story i saw yesterday and the reason i mentioned it it was because it come from my hogden who's obviously you know mantis united man you mentioned some old gary o 'neill yeah i saw that he said though it was weird because i read that and it It was not as manager, it was like joining the coach.

53:30A role. Gary O 'Neill's not going to be a Premier League manager and go to Man United. I couldn't understand sort of... There's been some... I mean, I said a couple... I said on Stick to Football last week, even Gareth, as well as Gareth's done with England, I'd never seen the fit between Gareth and Manchester United. I'd never seen the fit between Graham Potter and Manchester United. And that's been a sort of, if you like, strong rumour. I don't see the fit between Gary O 'Neill and Manchester United. These are three... What fit do you see? I don't know. Instinctively as a fan of a club, when you're here and there, you feel it or you don't feel it, you just do.

54:04You make a feeling. It's not a feeling I've had. I've not woke up thinking, I'll tell you what I think, that looks like a United manager. Would you stick with Ten Hag then? If you've not got anyone that's... Because you remember with Van Gaal? Jose was there and everyone was like, that's the obvious one, Jose can come in. I don't feel like there is an obvious one. I'd like to see him kept in the sense that, to be fair, I'm not quite sure at the moment when I look at sort of, let's say for instance there was a, let's say Klopp was on the market as an example and you could get some sort of world-class manager that's, he is on the market isn't he?

54:35No yeah he's on the market. You know what I mean, let's say someone like that, but everywhere I look I just think to myself we could end up with someone who's probably not as good as Eric Ten Hag and got the pedigree of him and he's actually got two years of experience and the fact he's had that good first season but he's experienced that difficulty means that he should be better for it. So I think that for me, I would like to see... I don't like the idea of him leaving and us bringing in the names that have been suggested. I don't feel that doesn't feel right. I'd rather stick with Eric Ten Hag and think, right, OK, let's just give him...

55:05I won't even say another year. I'd just say, let's just actually give him... Believe in him, say the least. I mean... Believe in him, you know what I mean? If he has another season like this, he's not going to obviously be there. But we could win the FA Cup and we could sneak into the Champions League through this fifth or something. No, no If this fifth place Does get it One of them two I mean they've got it in them To blow up Tottenham and Villa They have You know you have haven't you You've got it in you To sort of like Wobble You have I'm not saying you will But you've got it in you Have you seen your performance?

55:32I'm not sure on that Because Since Henry's come in At Aston Villa We've just been on An upward trajectory So I hope Villa You used to be fine I hope Villa get there But I just think Tottenham look I mean you could wobble Couldn't you? I think the record that we've lost like four games in the last 22 that can happen of course but I think we've got a relatively fully fit squad now, Van Der Ben back at the weekend, I think you'll see us just push on, I think we'll finish it up there I'm just trying to antagonise you to be honest We're talking about managers, Liv at West Ham David Moyes seems permanently under pressure fans disgruntled what are your thoughts on whether he should stay or go?

56:16Well, with David Moyes, I love him. I mean, he won us a European trophy and I think everyone forgets about that as soon as you have a season where you fall off and you're not actually hitting what we should be this season. What should you be hitting this season? We should be in top six. We should be there. We shouldn't be dropping points against Burnley to start with. And I think we should be challenging for that top six and we should be pushing higher and fighting with Spurs and Villa because if Villa can do it, I mean, who's to say that we can't? We've got a trophy to prove that we're actually pretty good.

56:56Yeah, yeah. So with Moyes, I love him, but the football he plays is negative. You go to football and you want to watch everyone attack. You want your team to win. I go to football and I sit there and I go, I don't know if we're going to win this because we're kicking back all the time. you want to go to goal passing back constantly it's frustrating can it ever get better for West Ham in terms of one of Trophy, you're saying you should be in the top six but you're actually seventh now so you're roughly where I think most people in the room who weren't West Ham fans would say West Ham should be or maybe actually slightly overachieving, I mean is it just better football because I don't see West Ham ever being hiding the table if I'm being totally honest erm I'd say that it does get better.

57:44I think if we can progress in the Europa League and get to the final there, then we're proving everyone that we've just won the Conference League. We're now in a Europa League final. Who's to say that we can't then fight for Champions League? In terms of getting in the top four? I think you said this a few weeks ago, didn't you, about West Ham? They're almost sort of like caught between the devil and the deep blue sea. They've got this manager who's so consistent, who never lands them in trouble, who gets them into the top half of the table. the prize money in the Premier League is huge. Competing for trophies, they're in the latter stages of European competition.

58:17And yet, there are fans who aren't happy because of the style of play. It's a little bit like at Spurs, when I was watching Spurs a few seasons ago, and you had the managers there. And I think I had a debate with someone on Sky, I can't believe it was after a Spurs game. It wasn't. And I said that Spurs fans are never going to be happy if the style of play is like this, even if they're sort of challenging for trophies, they're just never going to be happy. and I think West Ham fans have got to that point haven't they where they're just feeling like the sort of balance scales are tipping I think from watching football when I was a kid Spurs were always that team that we all associated with Spurs fans have to have good football but West Ham have been like that no but my point being I think that's across the board now I think every football fan now certainly in the Premier League expects their team to play a certain way and the only way you accept it is probably Everton-Baz where if you or anyone's team who are fighting relegation, you'll put up with anything to make sure you're still in the Premier League.

59:13But once you know you're an established club, you want to go to the game, you want to feel like you're on the front foot, you want to be excited. I mean, is there a manager out there or maybe a manager in the Premier League? You look at the way their team plays and think, I wish he was our manager. Well, that's the thing. When you compare it and you take it out of that situation, you go, well, what manager is there that you would take that's on the market now? and I think that's what it's kind of a reality check for every West Ham fan when you ask them that question well what manager would you take and what manager would want to come to West Ham with the players we've got and the competitions we're in I think a lot I think West Ham would be a really sought after club because I think actually you've got a good group of players and I think that maybe we you know Deserby comes to Brighton all of a sudden plays football that's out of this world Poster Coglu obviously we know from Celtic but was he third choice for Spurs I think probably it's through the fourth choice one here I mean he wasn't the first choice now all of a sudden he comes and basically just absolutely smashes it out of the park when it comes to football he's blown us all the way this season so I think there are managed and I wouldn't undersell West Ham about how big a club that is now bigger job that is you know I was there a few weeks ago on the Monday night football for the was it Brentford on a Monday night I just like 55 60 ,000 people in that stadium on a Monday night yeah it's incredible really you think about the amount of people who go and watch every club but you know it's a massive club so and seventh in the league but I love David Moyes I mean I think he's done an unbelievable job but I think the owners will be sat there thinking we better be careful what we wish for here we might get a few more passes but all of a sudden you could be 15th in the table thinking oh my god we need David Moyes back that I think that's what they'll be thinking yeah do you think that risk's worth taking the market's uncertain revenues tied and hiring on hold.

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1:01:32I don't, I don't. I think you've got to take it away from the Premier League as well. We didn't do that great last year in the Premier League, but we got a trophy in another competition. We could do the same again this season, even though we're higher than last season at the moment. We could then still get a trophy at the end. And I think he's a great manager. Oh, so you wanted to stay? Yeah, I like him, but I think the style of play he plays on the pitch is really negative. And I can understand why people would want him out. I was sat a manager at Salford over style of play, which is an ego thing in some ways from a football perspective.

1:02:10And I think paid for it for probably a couple of years after. They destabilised the club, destabilised the changing room. We went from having two managers in six years to all of a sudden then three, four months later, the next manager didn't work we were then chasing our tail before you know it you're an owner that's panicked I've been there where we had literally such stability in the football club we'd had like Bernard and John Ove for four seasons nearly we'd had Graham their style of football no it was it was great then Graham for two and a half seasons so we were really stable everything was really sort of quite measured all of a sudden we thought right we want a better style of play we put Richie Wellings in who's proven to be a great manager before that and after that since but it just didn't work and it went pear shaped inside three months before you know it you called a mad owner.

1:02:54And so I think... By him! No, but what I'm saying, before you know it... What did they call you? Remember that one at Atletico Madrid? Ages Jill? Yeah, but before you know it, you've gone from being the most stable, sort of, if you like, ownership in the league and everything like that, to all of a sudden you've sacked two managers in a season. And I think that the owners at West Ham have been around the block. They've been here, they've seen it, they've done... They've done that last time, didn't they? Moise had been stable, he sacked them, got Pellegrini, all of a sudden. And then had to go back.

1:03:21Getting back. So I think they'll just be thinking, let's be careful here because we've been here before. And lots of clubs find themselves in that position, but chasing the style bit, which I agree with, I'm big in it. I think Manchester United have to win football matches, but I think they have to play a certain way. Simple as that. They have to. So I demand that of my club that they have to play well. But sometimes when you're in a position, if it's going to end, it needs to end at the right time to make sure that the club can progress and not destabilise everything that's there, I think.

1:03:58Greg, go to you. Yeah. Where do you find yourselves in the tier? Is it 18th now? Yeah. Just lost the four points. For now. For now? Do you think you'll get some back? Well, we've appealed it. I think we'll get one back. Everyone appeals, don't we? Yeah, I know, but usually it works, Baz. So, er... Can I put something to you about Forrest? Honest, didn't we? We've still got six. Can I put something to you about Forrest that, to be fair, has nothing to do with the actual results or nothing to do with the points deduction. It's to do with the, I think, nature and atmosphere and perceived panic that's happened, not just with the points deduction, but the last six weeks.

1:04:34You know, appointing Mark Lassenberg, to me, that's just a nonsense. That the owner turned up on the side of the pitch, that to me just demonstrates panic in turn. When I look at that, you know, you've been in a football boardroom, you've been in a business, you know when there's crisis and there's panic going on because you start to see things like that emanate externally. I worry what's happening internally there because things have started to come. Notations like the Clattenburg one is just crazy in my mind. It gives the players an excuse. Honestly, what you've done there I think is give players an excuse.

1:05:06Never give players an excuse that the referees are all to blame for the reason we're dropping points. I know you might have had a couple of bad ones. I know you've had a terrible one or two. You've had some shockers, I know that. But just generally I think I'm a bit worried about what's going on I don't know if you've got more insight than what I've just you know if you like spoken about I do get that from the outside with regarding the owner being on the side of the pitch you only have to look at how he behaves with Olympiacos you know that's what he does that's not a panicked owner that's how he does it over there in the midst of a relegation battle I know I mean that was a unique game that Liverpool game it really was so I can let him off for that he is a fiery character he's been like that in Olympiacos he's going to have to learn you can't do that in the Premier League with the world's media watching you but that's just how he is that's how he behaves that's how he's always behaved the Clattenburg decision I agree with you I did and when it happened I thought what are we doing here they have since tried to explain it it's about explaining to the players and the management why these decisions are made and what we can do as players we know when they're at this you know as fans by the way the decisions are going against you you don't need it explaining by it you know why it's gone against you.

1:06:19I understand. Every time. However, you know, you might be looking back in five years and the top four are, you know, recruiting these ex-referees and getting stuff like that. But it was a strange one for me. I didn't understand it at the time. I do a little bit more now with what's coming out of the club about the reasons behind recruiting. We had referees come in sometimes privately, maybe at the start of a season, sometimes with England at the start of a tournament where there's new rules that are coming in and things of maybe there's a new clampdown on certain bits of behaviour. You'd have referees come in and just say, look, you'd have that coaching, that type of talk.

1:06:54You'd never publicly appoint someone to say, we need to explain to our players and manager where these referees are going wrong. That doesn't make sense. It is hard to argue against that. However, the decisions that have been made, not just on the pitch, but when it goes to VAR, have been that bad, that blatantly wrong. What can we do as a club? We keep accepting these decisions. We find ourselves in a relegation battle. Premier League wanting to take eight points off of absolutely everything against us. What can a club that's fighting for their Premier League position do other than something new?

1:07:26When you talk about fighting, I'll go back to the PSR breach. Obviously Everton had that for a long time, felt like it was going on. Your appeal, what is the feeling within the real fan base of Nottingham Forest that you've been really hard done by or you were expecting what you got? The rules, we were expecting it because we knew the rules. We knew the rules when we came up. I don't believe we'd have stayed up if we hadn't have breached. I really don't. I feel like going up with it... Do you think it was worth it? Well, it was because we stayed up. Will it be worth it at the end of this season?

1:07:58We'll see. But on that, I mean, every club that's been charged, we've almost, when they've signed... Like Everton, we've known about Everton's madness. You've been calling them the worst owners in the Premier League for three, four years. When they signed 34 players that summer, we were like, is this right? If you feel right Chelsea I know Chelsea's maybe Even all their stuff That's going around You know the clubs That are actually making A little bit of a mess of it The big thing about it They know themselves You know yourselves Don't you You're only going to be A couton to go This is not going to be But we weren't signing 34 players That were £50 million each We had to build a squad From having Five first players That's an army Yeah but it worked I know some of them Lingards didn't work Players like that We had to build a squad It was unique It wasn't like Luton had this core squad and team and they've gone up with that.

1:08:47That's incredible. We couldn't do that. And we knew that and we knew we had to sign. Yeah, it's rash. We probably did sign a few too many. But I truly believe... Yeah, but it worked. Last season, you were saying that. You know, the 29 players at the time, we stayed up. So it worked. However... You spent a hundred and odd million and just stayed up. That's not working. Well, it's the Premier League. That's how the Premier League is, isn't it? I think it's interesting. You're basically saying that it was worth us breaking the rules and getting the four points to stay up. But surely that's got to be a deterrent, hasn't it?

1:09:24Obviously, the points have to change. But you're actually saying, no, I'm glad we did do that. So we were talking beforehand about Villa maybe having to sign Luz Watkins. Is it worth them taking a points deduction and saying, actually, we'll take it, we'll keep the player and we'll get those six points back somewhere else? that's why the rules are so ridiculous Baz, do you feel I'd done by the points sort of deduction that Nottingham Forest and Rockham Pace level? A little bit but I've said all along I don't agree with points deductions I've had Nottingham against Forest I didn't want Forest to get one because the nonsense in the fair once you start putting asterisks onto league tables it's the Zingari league as far as I'm concerned in Liverpool a Liverpool local league where you just take points off because Jimmy's turned up hasn't signed plays get four It hasn't been like that And it's a nonsense It's an absolute We're seeing Leicester Who had already got points deducted Whatever league they're in You know And things like this Forest position's slightly different to us Because it's 46 players you've signed in two seasons I don't know what I'm just saying But we've only got the£61 million as well Because we didn't have the parachute What I'm saying is I'm not having a go with Forest I'm just saying that's slightly different Because ours with the stadium and other things So that's why we feel aggrieved Because it isn't Our squad I was saying to you before Look at Everton's squad in 21 to what it is now.

1:10:42It's like half the size. People go, why are Everton able? Because we've had to sell everyone. We've got nothing left. So you feel a bit of greed because you've got two for sending a nice email. Apparently that's what the ruling said. Oh, Forrest. So are you not actually sort of sticking together in all this? Yeah, we are. Absolutely. On the main, definitely. But I read that nothing than Forrest in the thing that they sent to the Premier League. Mentioned Everton about 50 or 60 times, innit? D 'Amaco, wasn't it? Nick De Marco wasn't he? The one trying to shoo everyone back in May. You were actually using Everton to actually help yourself.

1:11:15I think the Premier League were using Everton as well. We admitted our wrongdoing straight away and said we'd work with the Premier League. That's why we got these two vital points back that we're now appealing and they could add them on. For me, just in the grand scheme, forget about Everton just for now. For those two points, for writing a nice email. If I'm looting, It wasn't that. It's working with you. No, but I'm saying. I'm saying. Pretending the mates, but they're not really. No, no, I'm not. I'm saying if you're another club and you look, I mean, one point could decide the Premier League.

1:11:49One point could cost Newton or... If we're Everton and you've got it back as your email was better, A, I'm coming to get the person who writes more emails. Because our independent, our three-person independent panel is different to Bazzis. So they're not going to come up with the exact same decision either. We're still in, actually, because I'm recording this, Everton are in their second one. Yeah. And it'll be the fourth set of three different individuals who've heard it. And we've had ten points. Then in our appeal, the three-person panel went, don't know what they did with that, that's nonsense, so they give us six.

1:12:21Then Forrest have had days and got four. So if we carry on, we'll get two, Leicester will get none. Well, yeah, and we'll get this one. And by the time Chelsea and City go, they'll get credited. Will you give them 20 points? I think the clubs involved in this are all frustrated with the Premier League's being a lot of criticism. Yeah. It's been handled. You're massive on independent regulator. What would an independent regulator do in this situation that's any different than what's happening now? Well, I'm not quite sure what it could do today. What I think it can do, to be fair, is, I mean, the Premier League's stuck because you've got these 20 members who have all got self-interest.

1:12:53They can't sort out a deal for the EFL. That's now been on the table for a couple of years. I think there is a lack of faith and trust in some clubs now in the Premier League in terms of how they're handling these systems. I think generally the big thing that I'd like to think a regulator would do on this, and the Premier League are trying to do it themselves, they've actually said they're going to do it themselves, is change the actual rules around sustainability so you can measure it in real time. I said this about League Two, I think I said this a few weeks ago. In League Two, you have to put your business plan in at the start of the season and you're not allowed to sign a player.

1:13:25Because obviously the league register players. Yeah, yeah. So when you sign, give me a player you've signed. Give me a player you've signed. Mike McNeil. Alanga Alanga Right They would look at it and think Actually this money will take them Over the threshold of loss for this season We're not allowing you to register that player Until you have sold a player Did the Premier League not tell you is that though? Yeah but this is the difference But they don't They haven't got the ability to monitor it in real time And the ability to be able to stop you signing a player So that you don't go over the threshold Because you're measuring over three years aren't you?

1:13:57In League 2 it's season to season So the rules need to change OK, but in this situation, let's get back to them. I believe clubs know when they're going over. You've got an accountant, you've got your financial guy, your CEO, you must surely know when you've gone over the threshold. So you're saying an independent regulator should come in and say to those clubs, you can't buy that. No, I don't think a regulator's job is to basically regulate the game so the rules are in place to make sure that everything's done properly. So, for instance, the sustainability rules need changing. The Premier League themselves have accepted that, the clubs know that.

1:14:29The distribution needs sorting. So my point is a regulator will come in and ensure that some of the sort of what would be gaps that exist within the game, some of the sort of... I get that. I've got an example. No, the rules need to be more... Sustainability needs to be measured in real time. You're not measuring in three years. In the Liga, their president said the Everton situation would never have happened. No. Or Forrest's situation would never have happened. In League two. Because, like Gary's just said, they do that. In League two. So they go to the Premier League. Now, the Premier League, the big pass being missed...

1:14:59players could do last year because they were in breach. The bits that's been missed though in this is that the Premier League were telling Everton who they could and couldn't sign and then once the independent regulator come down and went oh we didn't know nothing about that. Like Gary said and I think you said every player you sign the Premier League have to decide whether to allow you to go through. So what the La Liga president was saying was if either seeing Forest spread to he would have gone you can't sign him and you can have him but you can't play. And that's my point and I've said this at the start I think the Premier League should have actually been stronger.

1:15:28Absolutely. But can you imagine, as a set of supporters, and it comes out, Everton, a week away from the deadline, they want to get Dwight McNeil over the line, whoever it might be, and the Premier League have said no. Can you imagine the reaction? But this is what's happened with the Brennan Johnson sale, which is the reason we've breached. Brentford wanted him for£30 million in the June, which would have pretty much put us on the line, which would have cleared us. We knew Spurs were eventually going to get the chequebook out and give us the over£40 million. We knew that There was an agreement there But it was going to take Till the end of the window Which took us over To the next season's books So if there was If there was a regulator there We'd have said This is what we're doing If it is all about finances It's putting us in a better Financial state But what it was Was the date That happened with us The date is the reason A regulator is not someone That the clubs will be able To contact A regulator is going to be Something that sits Outside of the league The league's still going to Run itself The league's still got to Manage its own finances what the regulators are going to do is set the parameters of sustainability of distribution hopefully which is not down to do at this moment in time it's going to if you like set the framework or help with the framework of what the leagues are going to work with the Premier League will still operate itself I think when you need this the rules you're absolutely right I'm not defending it we've gone over it and Forrest have gone over it and Leicester have gone over it and Chelsea have gone over it and it will go on and on and on and Villa will go over it and Newcastle will What are the three big things that football has failed fans on in the last few years protecting oh god owners allowing owners in that maybe have had the correct funds or haven't been the right type of people sustainability and distribution and that's the pyramid they're the three big things there are other issues as well like for instance should moving stadiums changing badges or whatever it might be other or the other things that are like heritage items but they're the real sort of big things that you think that basically the clubs need relegation the 92 clubs need a framework to work within and that's what I think the regulator will provide the clubs then will have to operate within that the clubs have decided Everton and Forrest I think have both admitted their errors on sustainability they've both come clean as it were I think Chelsea have actually as well have come clean they're accepting they've broken the rules what you're arguing about is the punishment oh yeah that's what I'm saying I agreed with Jamie on how the club was running it's shocking and Forrest they might argue slightly I've got some sympathy, to be honest with you, with the Premier League.

1:17:56They're damned if they do and damned if they don't on this. To be fair, you've got to look across here to Luton Town. You spent four... They work within the financial parameters of the league's framework. You don't. They basically could go down whilst you benefit from having extra players. If you just think of it and forget Forrest, is it right? He just said it was right last season. It was the only way we could stay. How is that? You don't believe it. Why? Because we would have gone down. Sorry, I need to pick you up on this, because you're saying that we did the right thing by breaking the rules.

1:18:28No, I'm not saying we did the right thing, I'm saying we wouldn't have stayed up. No, but what I'm saying to you is... They both four right-backs, they both four goals, that's not my... There's this whole thing, isn't there, about... Greg wasn't bad at football, by the way. Feel like he's getting it. No, I like this, because... This idea about Watkins, Villa shouldn't sell him, they should break the rules and get four points. Because it shows what a joke the rules are. That isn't about protecting a club from going under That's where we've got to now I mean we're not going to come on to City yet But that's where we've got to To the point whereby clubs feel They're bigger than the league Yeah but the rules were there to protect Portsmouth, Reading Don't support the clubs breaking the rules But the rules are nonsense And that's why they're being changed Blame your owners to be fair Blame the Premier League for the silly rules No Can I just say this though You just want a basket case.

1:19:18That's why the rules are changing. Simple accounting. You're allowed to lose 100 million. 61 million. You're allowed to lose 105 million in three-year period. We weren't. OK, because you come up with different rules in the AFL. Yeah, I get that. But when you're saying the rules or whatever, what you did last season to state was a bit mad. That wasn't normal. You had players left, right and centre. It wasn't like a brilliantly run operation. Great. I agree with that. Buying well, selling one. It was just mad. I do agree with that. But again, I go back to the fact we're still in the Premier League this season.

1:19:54And without doing the majority of those signings, we wouldn't have been from the position we were in. I don't see how a club... Right, Luton may well stay up. They'll stay up on the back of our points. I have to say something here, though. You're Nottingham Forest, and I don't know a lot about your football club, other than the fact I've watched it and followed it for 30, 40, 50 years. He's got a rich history with a man that used to be at the helm, Brian Clough, who is an absolute legend of this game. What do you think he would make of what you're saying? And this sort of, if you like, casual way in which you describe breaking the rules as being some sort of normal thing.

1:20:32Seriously, you talk about the integrity of the football club and the history of it and all the things that you talk about. Why would you even want your club's reputation to be ruined just to stay in the Premier League? And it sounds crazy. I know we all want to stay in the Premier League, but are we really at the point whereby the desperation is such that nothing else matters and Luton or another club in the other part of the league, forget them we break the rules, we're in here, we're alright we've got to come away from that Brian Clough straight away I'd imagine wouldn't have liked the Premier League as it's set up as it is we protect the top six and we do but maybe he wouldn't that's a different argument don't change the argument What would he think?

1:21:15He wouldn't have liked the owner having so much power, for starters. He certainly wouldn't have liked the amount of signings. If we're looking at last season, he'd have liked the way Steve Cooper managed it and got us up and did all that. But yeah, he wouldn't like this current situation. Of course he wouldn't. I properly started to unload on the Glazer family post-Super League. Before that, believe it or not, my actual criticism of them was either little or next to nothing. United fans will know that. Once I recognised they were a danger to the actual game itself and they were willing to do something like that, that was when I fully unloaded on them.

1:21:52Those owners, honestly, those six owners who signed up to that Super League that were willing to destroy the game in this country and destroy the game around Europe as well, by the way, they've been let off scot-free. Exactly. They've been let off scot-free. It's disgraceful that we've let them off scot-free. It really is, honestly. they got fined 3 million quid each which is unbelievable they should have been kicked out of the league a lot of them honestly Gary I agree how are you going to kick them off the league and do what right seriously for what they did it was an absolute crime anyway we'll move on from that so I get the fact that the top 6 need managing that's partly why the regulator needs to come in to protect the 14 of us in the Premier League because the top 6 will lie it's a cartel it's a cartel and they're getting further and further away and one of them is my club and I love that club and I want that club to be at the top of Europe every single year so I'm ambitious for my club but if they started breaking the rules which thankfully they haven't if Manchester United started breaking the rules around sustainability and said well I'm just going to carry on spending money and get me my four points I'd be shocked I'd hope in City fans if they were to be found guilty they're not going to start then trying to justify what's happened if they were to be found guilty Well they will because every football fan would do the same in the same situation and that's like we've been and we are with the spotlights on us and everyone's saying we've done wrong, it's terrible, this, that, the other.

1:23:11I get it, but when you see a club possibly in breach of 115 of those things and we have just desperately tried to do something, you spoke about those three things about the owner. Sustainability. You look around our city, what the owner's actually doing and the projects he's putting money into. This isn't an owner that's going there, having five years, look at me, I'm great, and then going. This is someone who's trying to build something. None of us want to move stadium, but it's looking like, Is that frustrated with the councils? We might have to build a 50 ,000-seater stadium. This is an owner that wants a club in the Premier League for the next decade or so.

1:23:48I get that. There's lots of owners in this country, and if he's investing in the city, that's great. But at what cost? Is it to the cost of Luton Town? So what I'm saying is, I'm happy that Nottingham Forest are in the Premier League. It's great that they're back in the Premier League. I want Sheffield Wednesday to come back into the Premier League at some point, and clubs that, to be fair, have been lost for the last 10, 15 years. So I'm not sat here thinking I don't want the clubs to come back in. Because I know the impact it has upon the cities, the impact it has upon the community. But at what cost, to the detriment of other towns and other cities, like Luton Town and Sheffield United and Burnley.

1:24:25Leicester were the ones that suffered. Let's bring Finlay in from Luton. I mean, what are your thoughts on basically... You're up against two teams. They've broke the rules, but it may actually work in your favour that they've had points taken off them. But then if they're getting points back after the season's done, how is that fair on anyone? We could go into post-season, think we stayed up on the last day, and then they get the points back. We may think we've been relegated on the last day. We lose a couple of players who go to bigger clubs for big money because they've been promised they can leave if we go down to the championship.

1:24:53And then we lose them after the deadline's done, and that's because they've essentially cheated or not cheated and got their points back or had points put back on. We've been in a position where we've dropped right down. We've lost so many points. We've got 30 points taken off us. It almost killed the club. The only reason we're alive as a club is because the new owners came in and saved the club. Then you look at Reading as well, and they're in an even worse position than any club in the country at the moment. Dire Young is killing that club from the inside, but the Premier League is so stuck looking at those 20 clubs in the Premier League.

1:25:23And then Gary mentioned that they've got into a position where they're not helping the EFL anymore. That could kill more clubs in a way. Are you frustrated with what Greg just said about accepting breaking the rules to make sure they stayed up? Absolutely. How can you sign 36 players in your first season back in the Premier League? I don't know how much money you spent on that first season. It's crazy sort of money. We've spent£30 million since 1996 or something in our history. And then we spent£5 million on our record signing in the summer. And we're all celebrating like it's the best day ever.

1:25:53And you've got money thrown around in the Premier League that's insane to us. But we're not going to break the rules because we've got owners who not only care about the club, They care about how the game is run and they care about everyone else in the pyramid as well. What's the feeling with Luton fans in terms of the reaction of, say, Everton and Nottingham Forest fans, maybe other fans in the future in terms of them being frustrated with how the Premier League have dealt with them? How do you see that from a Luton perspective? So you can understand the frustration towards the Premier League because nothing's really laid out at the start of the season.

1:26:25There's no consistency to the decisions that are being made. so you've got 10 points and it's reduced you've got 6 points and they've got 2 points because they're good behaviour essentially and then they might lose those because they've decided to appeal it so you've got to be frustrated with the Premier League because it means that the focus isn't on the football and the pitch but if it saves us we almost died as a club because of points deductions if it keeps us in the Premier League and secures our future for the next however long we're going to be celebrating all day I just think, I'm just going to say the last thing is that we are building a stadium by the way and without the stadium I know what you said about wages, you're right, everything's coming down, the figures are there, they're out for everyone to see.

1:27:02Without building a stadium, Everton don't breach. It's as simple as that. So, yeah, you can go, well, you know, that's what I'm saying, it's slightly different to Forrest, not condoning it in any way, shape or form, but everything Everton have been, we're still getting punished for past deals of a couple of years ago. To be honest with you, I'm very aware of League 2 sustainability. I'm aware of the headline,£105 million over three years. I thought infrastructure spend was allowed and academy spend was allowed interest on the stadium to my point but it's not just just correct me if I'm wrong because I think you can build a stadium or else Tottenham would be bust I mean they spent a billion quid United are potentially going to spend whatever they're going to spend on the stadium I thought infrastructure spend training ground spend was allowed outside of FFP a percentage yeah but it's interest on the paint so Everton were given when they started it this is my thing if the Premier League would have said that to start a build, you can't have to, otherwise you'd be either gone down.

1:28:01That's what you should have. My opinion, you changed it halfway through, Gary. But I thought you were 300 million over and it was a COVID relief that got you down to a certain level. academy and all your women's team and all that come down to 19 and a half. Every club plays way over it and then all the charges are added back in. Every club, there's only three who are positive. But I don't, look, at the end of the day, you know, I know that all the clubs are living on the edge League 2 by the way We're all living on the edge Sometimes we can get At the end of a transfer window And we can think Right we've only got 42 grand left In the sort of bank To be able to spend Because we know We can't go over that We never went over that I'm sat there As a Solford City owner My chair A minute of time Karen Baird Finance Absolutely spot on Right We've got 100 grand left Yeah We've got 32 grand left We've got 21 grand You're almost And then all of a sudden You think right We'd better bring some money in You go back up to 70 grand Why wouldn't it be?

1:28:59It's so simple. If you've got real... You know when you're going to go over. You know you're getting to that sort of line there and you think, hang on a minute, we haven't sold... Who was the player you mentioned before? Brendan Johnson. We haven't sold Brendan Johnson yet. What happens if we don't? We better be careful. We can't sign that 34th player. We'll have to leave... But we made 13 million more for the goal. No, we'll have to accept 33 rather than 34. You know what I mean? And then Brendan Johnson goes through. Great, we'll sign 34th. Right, that's it. We've finished. We've had a great fan debate.

1:29:30Join us next week where we'll be taking more questions from the audience and we'll be giving them our own.

1:29:54passion