Arsenal’s UCL Heartbreak, City’s Post-Pep Era & Carrick’s Big Summer | The Overlap Fan Debate

0:00This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try it at Progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states. Thank you for calling the Bombas Comfort Line. Bombas make socks, slippers, tees, and underwear made with the highest quality materials. Press 1 for comfort, 2 for style, 3 for donation. You chose style. Bombas is styles for whatever you enjoy.

0:33You can run in Bombas, lounge in Bombas, dress them up, dress them down, but always give back in Bombas. Because with every item purchased, another is donated. Bombas, comfort worth calling for. Go to bombas.com slash audio and use code audio for 20 % off your first purchase. That's B-O-M-B-A-S dot com and use code audio. I sold my car in Carvana last night. Well, that's cool. No, you don't understand. It went perfectly. Real offer, down to the penny. They're picking it up tomorrow. Nothing went wrong. So, what's the problem? That is the problem. Nothing in my life goes to smoothie. I'm waiting for the catch.

1:04Maybe there's no catch. That's exactly what a catch would want me to think. Wow, you need to relax. I need to knock on wood. Do we have wood? Is this table wood? I think it's laminate. Okay, yeah, that's good. That's close enough. Car selling without a catch. Sell your car today on Carvana. Pick up these may apply. Running a business means juggling a lot of moving parts. And when your communication tools can't keep up, things start to slip. Missed calls, slow replies, scattered conversations. They're not just frustrating. They're lost opportunities and revenue left on the table. That's where Quo comes in, spelled Q-U-O.

1:41Quo is the number one rated business phone system on G2. trusted by over 90 ,000 businesses. One shared business number for calls and texts, so every conversation stays visible, organized, and accountable. It works from an app or computer. You can keep your existing number, add teammates, and sync your CRM, letting you scale without adding complexity. And with built-in AI, Quo logs calls, summarizes conversations, and flags next steps, even after hours. Stop missing customers. Stop leaving revenue on the table. Try Quo free and get 20 % off your first six months at quo.com slash tech. That's Q-U-O dot com slash tech.

2:25Quo. No missed calls, no missed customers.

2:43He sort of threw that all out the window and go, we don't want him anymore. I would change the manager, but I'd have changed him for Xavi Alonso. Top of the league with, I think, four or five guys. So that was a little bit of a bottle job. I'd say a bottle job, personally, is going up 1-0 in two European Cup finals and losing them both. It comes down to Sullivan. He promised us Champions League and delivered the championship. I think Pep Guardiola is the best manager we've had in the Premier League, but obviously the debate is, is it Pep Guardiola? Is it, say, Alex Ferguson? Honestly, you haven't been around as long as I have.

3:12Villa are as big a club as anybody in the Premier League. What he's done in the Europa League is unbelievable. But you don't want to be known as the Europa League, man. You're going to learn what it's like to be a real football fan now, son. And that's how I feel for you, because your head's a bit in the sand and it's going to get real quick. At no point in Arteta's reign anyway. So the new team we're talking about, has it? Not a Champions League one, is it? That one's silver, mate.

3:40Hello and welcome back to the Fan Debate brought to you by Skybet I'm really glad to welcome Shea giving back to the couch Oh Shea glad to have you back Before we get going with the supporters what have you made of this season and also what has been your favourite moment? Well you've got to congratulate Arsenal haven't you? Have you? Well you do you always congratulate the winners don't you? It's been so long I think was it second three years on the bounce and I don't know bottle jobs call them what you want but now you've got to say congratulations they got the job done they got it over the line and you have to give them great credit because whoever wins the league you've got to say well done and yes people would argue it's not vintage Arsenal or it's not a vintage Premier League this season perhaps but I don't care how you get the job done you get it over the line and Arteta and his team have done that so great credit them for that.

4:36Maybe he'll adapt next season and try and play a bit more, maybe I don't know what's the word. You said it. Offensive football and try and play a bit more expansive maybe and add a few more maybe flair players to the sort of forward line and try and win it differently. But I think what confidence and belief that Arsenal will get from this winning the league, then it'll be it'll hold them in good stead for next season. I think it'll be for these players to get the belief they go on and maybe do it again. I'm trying to think moment of the season what sticks out for a moment of the season save save of the season probably Raya save I think it was a Brighton against Brighton I think that save for me was phenomenal Pickford deserves a mention the one at Newcastle I tried not to mention that one but as an ex-Sunderdom player and obviously doing it up at Newcastle but I think Raya I think this season had been for me the standout goalkeeper and that save against Brighton was world class and I think for one of the reasons they won the league and I do believe that Raya has had a brilliant season and he's up there with some of the brilliant goalkeepers in the past at Arsenal Well your two answers with Arsenal so let's start with Arsenal we've got Matt the Arsenal fan 22 years without winning the Premier League got it done parade yesterday looked fantastic all the Gooners out to celebrate and rightly so but we'll start with the Champions League final from a couple of days ago Matt I mean what's your feeling around losing the final?

6:04How do you feel about it? It was devastating, especially when you're that close. You've done all the hard work and for it to come down to a couple of 12-yard kicks, we were on the verge of basically being immortal, immortality, and that's what hurts the most. Not so much the concept of losing, but how close we were to what could have been. I was there and coming out the ground, obviously people were heartbroken, speechless, but everyone that I spoke to said that they were as proud as they were gutted. We know collectively as a fan base, like it's going to be dark tonight and light in the morning, that this team will be back at some point sooner rather than later.

6:43There is belief amongst us. We're so together. I actually want to quote one of the board members, Ben Winston, who said he remembers the feeling leaving Paris in 2006 but that was the end of an era and this is the beginning of one. And I think that the parade came at a good time because it gave the players time to reflect on what they've done, what they've achieved this season, despite it ending on a low. And I think it showed them how together we all are, how connected this fan base are. I was there covering the game and I had this feeling going into the game that everyone you spoke to with Arsenal fans, and I should make this point actually, flew out with Arsenal fans, flew back, saw them, I was there on Thursday, they were around us in the ground, they were absolutely brilliant and the reason I say that is because Arsenal fans get so much stick don't they for being that fan base online, I think we probably should all remember that there's all cranks online isn't there, from every set of supporters, including Arsenal and my own, but the Arsenal fans absolutely were brilliant with me and our team all the way through so I should mention that, but the feeling I got going into the game was almost that it was not a free hit but you were just so happy and relieved to get the league done and after the game I saw some of your staff I saw Stuart the photographer who's now my good friend after I gave him a bit of a stick a few years ago and it was that feeling of like you know and then you had the pre-gesting I've seen the scenes there it didn't feel like there was that much disappointment it didn't feel like devastating I've been there but Liverpool as a Liverpool fan the last probably five or six years a couple of times lost Champions League finals and it felt like oh it took me weeks to get over with whereas Arsenal it didn't feel like that was and I think it's a good thing in a way Like you say, it wasn't a free hit, but it would have just been the cherry on top.

8:28But there's, like I said, there's just a sense in us that we're just getting started and we will be back there soon. I think we'll be in Madrid next year, as a bold prediction. OK, I'll ask you that because I want to get to know the nitty-gritty of the game and the performance. Yeah. Do you think you can win the Champions League playing like that? Listen, 100%. I think it was a tactical masterclass at the end of the day. It wasn't. You don't think so? One shot on target, 20 % of the ball. I'll tell you what, and you know what, I probably shouldn't have been so forthright there. If you win that, it's seen as a tactical masterclass.

9:04That's a Mourinho masterclass. And you think of how highly regarded, say Brian Clough is in this country for what he did in European Cup finals. They won it that type of way. They were that type of team. but what I would say is I don't know if it's Arteta or it's the actual players you've got in your attack are not quite good enough but you had a favourable run to get there I think and then obviously you didn't lose to PSG to not lose a game in the Champions League is unbelievable and not win it but I just think you'd have to you've got to get better attackers or you've got to you've got to go for it a little bit more but then tactically knowing that we don't have the attack that PSG I mean and their attack is as good as our defence, maybe you could say.

9:49Knowing that we haven't got that attacking threat like they do, you've got to adjust tactically, and we did that, and we held them to, you know, all they got was a penalty. I didn't really, I wasn't at any point thinking, oh, we're under the cosh here. I think it was a tactic, and we convert our penalties and we win, and it is a tactical masterclass. If you went at PSG, they would have exposed us, like they did to Inter in the final last year, beaten 5-0. You can't go toe-to-toe with something like that. they'll absolutely punish you on the attack. And I think we adapted brilliantly and it just wasn't...

10:19Well, when you say you adapted, that's been the criticism of Arsenal right throughout our test of time, hasn't it? This wasn't a one-off game. This wasn't like a tactical sort of settle that we've not seen before. And the probably question remains around it is, is it a handbrake on or a lack of top-class players? Do you put that down to the manager or those players? Because when you look at the first half, and I find it difficult to have a go at Arsenal there because they won the league and as I said you didn't lose a game in the Champions League and you took PSG to penalties but when I was watching the first half they didn't create a chance but I was watching it thinking you've still got to you've still got to make a few passes you've still got to have a bit of if you're the best team in England and they're the best team in Europe there shouldn't be such a gulf in actually the idea with the ball and it was only once I think in the first half and I saw I saw Miles Lewis Skelly get the ball and he ran through midfield and played it wide and I thought I don't think I know you're not going to dictate the game they're better than you I get that but it shouldn't be such like where you couldn't keep the ball for two passes now you're on the edge of your own box a Champions League final shouldn't be like that we were letting them have it why let them have it?

11:29because it was working until it didn't we gave away a cheap penalty that didn't need to be done we didn't concede an actual in-play goal but you had one shot and target in the game but this was the game plan we got to penalties if you would have told me before or you want to go into a penalty shoot, I would have bit your hand off for it. It worked. You think it's a missed opportunity? I think the tactical plan was really good, actually. And I do believe that, to a certain degree, there was a missed opportunity there. I say that because, obviously, Dembele was off, Carviskelly was off, Marquinhos was off an extra time.

11:59And I think this is an opportunity now for Arsenal to go, tell you what, we don't want to go to the penalty, we can do something in-game. But I don't think there was ever that belief within the game that they could go and do something. I mean Jokras was a struggle up front he really struggled to do anything any impact off the bench I think he really struggled if he can get someone in that area he can be a different team we'll say I agree with that I actually thought they were going to win at an extra time when you actually saw the players on the pitch I think Arsenal's team was better in extra time when you'd actually look their four best players were probably off the pitch now I know it's difficult at an extra time everyone's a bit tired and things like that and I understand I'm not saying you should have took the games I'm not saying that I just felt there could have been a bit more courage in terms of actually when you had the ball to get on the ball a bit.

12:44Mars Lewis Skellar thought it was doing that three or four times but I just wanted that courage from other people where it wasn't like we got the ball back Ray has gone long, we've lost it or we've had two passes, we've lost it and we all get back. It was almost like you are the best team in England you have not lost a game in the Champions League it's a bit like surely we can keep this show for the ball a little bit more boys let's have this courage to like open up a little bit not to leave yourselves open defensively but a bit more. Come on, boys, get on the ball. Sometimes when you get the early goal, something inside, we've all been players where you've maybe got something to hold on to.

13:17That's the only thing I would say, and if you are what you're saying, this is the start of our journey in terms of going to win the Champions League. I think you just need to show a little bit more, have a bit more arrogance. Yeah, they'll learn from it. We've not been here before for 20 years now, and certainly not been under Arteta, and they'll learn from that. And I think that going into the next season, and we will have a little bit more arrogance about us now we know what it tastes like to win. Do you think it was a penalty on Maduweki? I think no is the answer. I think if the referee did originally give it, I don't think he would have overturned it, and that's what's frustrating.

13:52He was very quick to give them a penalty, but no interest in ours. So it was a penalty though, wasn't it? Yeah, but from the referee's angle, you would have thought that that was a penalty as well. I don't know, it's just too much of a grey area. What I didn't like at all was him blowing half-time on the corner. I've never seen that before. Mate, Saka was dilly-dallying over to the corner. What do you want to do? Give him an extra two minutes? And that's a player that didn't turn up. You guys act like Saka's the second coming of Jesus and completed about two passes in the whole game. The way that he was instructed to play by Arteta was to track back and help defensively, which he did superbly.

14:26And unfortunately, he couldn't get in on attack. I think he did his job defensively. I would have loved him to be a bit more ruthless going forward, but that wasn't the game plan. I wouldn't blame that on him. Do you think he would have been slightly different if you hadn't scored so early? Yeah, of course. We were holding on to the lead and his job wasn't, I don't think, to get another one. I think it was to hold on. And I think he did well at that. It's just when you do that, you then nullify his attacking strengths. Gabriel was fantastic. I thought him and Saliba were brilliant in the game.

14:54But were you surprised when he went for the penalty? Was there anyone else you were looking at thinking, you know, why is the centre-back taking it? Look, this is very easy to have this debate. I think if you're a professional footballer, you should be able to convert from 12 yards. I know it's obviously the highest pressure penalty in the game. It comes down, I think, to bottle. I think whoever's there and wants to take it, takes it. I remember Bayern Munich-Chelsea in the Champions League final. I think Neuer took Bayern's third because he thought, fuck it, I'm having this. And Gabriel probably did the same.

15:21He's a bit like that. He's fearless. You've got to hit the target, haven't you? Two, they didn't even hit the target. The keeper didn't make a save. How can you lose a game, a Champions League final, where the other keeper hasn't made a single save? Well, you hit him off target. Wakey fighting for penalties 3-0 up and he's nowhere to be seen this is what comes down it comes down to Bottle and Gabriel obviously being a leader said I'll have this and he missed it yeah I respect Gabriel do you think it was like not a showboat anyway but obviously the fifth penalty ticker is normally like the glory penalty yeah and you normally have like a more attacking mind the player ticking that one do you think Gabriel wanted to grab the headlines and think well fast I think that went why not tick second or third that's a ridiculous statement that's jumped off the page to me though I said that to him before.

16:03I said, I think Declan Rice should have took the fifth. But when he's going to take it, a defender, then take the second off the other, and you've got a chance to turn it around then. If you don't get there. The problem with the fifth penalty taker, and this has happened a few times, and it happened to Ronaldo in a tournament a few years ago, some people do want to take the fifth penalty and be the glory. I don't see that with Gabriel. It's not just the glory, though. It's also you can be the one that has to save it as well. Yeah, exactly. There's a more pressure penalty. But the reason why you wouldn't waste one of your penalty takers on your fifth one, or say let's say your best one or your number two because it might not get there.

16:34And there's nothing worse than your best penalty taker not taking a penalty in a shootout. So your best penalty takers have always got to take, for me, one of the first four. It's never over before. If you don't get there, then you've missed probably two out your first three. Yeah, and we did miss one, so we needed someone to step up and slot it and get us back in it. They did. Ezi's record's not good for penalties either, is it? Crystal Palace, Ezi struggled from the... I don't know if you've seen some of his penalties from Crystal Palace as well. I think he took a step penalty for Palace and then said, I won't do it again.

17:01He missed the penalty against Liverpool in the shootout of the Community Shield and there's a video of Tyreek Mitchell afterwards looking at the big screen and he's taking the penalty on it and he says, you've got to put that in the bin mate and he's like, yeah, it's done and yet he's done the same thing again I think it's just muscle memory a lot of the time because it's a high pressure thing and if you change your penalty stride and everything in that moment then maybe you're more likely to miss but I think he was waiting for the keeper to move and then he went Sometimes there's nearly too many variations like he stands up straight then he runs to the left then he does a little like fast feet and then he's I mean it's a very technical because we were saying before you made a good point I mean the PSG goalkeeper doesn't make a save in the game does he in the shootout he obviously doesn't get anywhere near the goal doesn't cover himself in glory there but with the SA one I thought the keeper actually does well because he doesn't move is it hard not to move in a situation it's very difficult not to move yeah it's very difficult not to move and I suppose maybe he just stood there in the sense that I can't really read the run-up.

18:02But then the thing is, Eze has to put it in the corner, doesn't he? He has to score. Because I think if he passes it in either corner, it's obviously stating the obvious, the goalkeeper hasn't got the time to react to keep it out then. But I think sometimes you can do too much. Like he starts straight to the ball and then he runs to the left and then he does fast feet and then he does a stutter. Like sometimes there's too much going on there in the run-up, do you know what I mean? I think John Aldridge, remember, would do a shimmy like. But a lot of them were doing that straight. A lot of them were straight onto the ball and then all of a sudden...

18:29Gabriel did the same, didn't he? He went straight to the room and then moved, didn't he? Every player has missed a penalty. It just, it's unfortunate. You know, it happens. Shit happens. John Terry missed the penalty. He was crying and he came back and won it. It happens. But all I'm saying is I don't think Ezzie's record from the penalty spot is good at all. No, it's not. I'm surprised that he's been stepped up to take one. He missed one against Newcastle where he was waiting for the keeper to move. Mick Pope just started failing, didn't he? And yet he barely moved and obviously he's just put it down the middle because I think it sort of spun his head a bit if you're waiting for the keeper to move and they don't move it's going to be a problem can we talk about the fucking Premier League please let's get back to it because you said you said that you think this is the start so what do you think Arsenal probably need personnel wise in terms of maybe to take it to another level in terms of for me I think you still need a centre forward and a left winger I've felt that a year ago and I still feel the same now even though you've won the Premier League I still think there's probably areas where you could improve.

19:28100%. I think we need to build around our core, stick together and block out the noise. Now these players have got, you know, they know what it tastes like to win. I am hopeful that they will get addicted to that feeling. If there's ever any lack of motivation, they can now go on their phones, look up the scenes from Tuesday night, look at the old people crying, look at the smiles on their faces when they're on the top of the bus at the parade. That should be enough for them to go out because they know what it feels like now. and City have, I think, just landed their plane and we've just got off the runway and now it's time for a long flight.

20:03Do you think... I think this is a great opportunity for Arsenal to really sort of kick on and be almost the dominant force for the next year or two because the other big six, if you like, I think five of them, besides yourselves, have all got new managers. Yeah. Obviously, have I got that right? Arteta's the only one to have won it. Yeah, so what I'm saying is You know, there's going to be teething problems with some of those managers new to the Premier League. Is that one of the reasons why you see this as the opportunity that you've got to grab it? Yeah, we're comfortable. And I think this is what I was saying before about we know we're going to go again.

20:38We know our future. These players, this gaffer, they're not going anywhere. Whereas there's uncertainty around everyone else. So, yeah, we've trusted the process. There's been a couple of bumps and there was points where I didn't trust it early on. but a few years down the line no one's denying that Arteta's been given licence to go out and spend the money but he's got the recruitment right he's got a team full of players that he's handpicked that he loves that he's turned into a family and everyone else is sort of kicking off a little bit your gaffer's gone sorry mate I'm not going to do this I think you'll be alright next season it's three games a week could or about us yeah and obviously City there's a big change God knows what's going to happen to them So, your players are going to be exhausted next season because you went all the way to the Carabao Cup final, to the FA Cup semi-final, Champions League final.

21:32They didn't make the semi, they got knocked out by some spies from the Champions League. Oh, right, quarterfinals. Then they're going to the World Cup, right? And I think there's more games this World Cup, right? It's a bigger World Cup. And then they're going to go again in all the comps. And we know Arteta, he likes to play his favourites in every competition. you're going to see Declan Rice is going to be now no matter how successful you are we can spin it in a negative it's unbelievable don't get to the Champions League final again or the NIO Cup final is that not going to be a thing where there's so much football play I think it will be alright

22:22What if you had a room where no one interrupts? No notifications, no expectations, just space to talk. With BetterHelp, therapy happens in a space that's yours. Visit betterhelp.com slash randompodcast for 10 % off your first month of online therapy. Rally caps, lucky socks, never stepping on the foul line. Baseball is full of superstitions we hope give us an edge. But let's be honest, most of it's just luck. That's how I used to feel about hair growth products, until I found Nutrafol, the official hair growth partner of Major League Baseball. It's physician-formulated, clinically tested, and recommended by dermatologists.

23:04An actual game plan for thinning hair. Nutrafol has formulas for men at every stage. There's Nutrafol Men for guys 18 to 49 to help grow thicker, fuller hair in 3 to 6 months. and Nutraful Men 50 Plus, designed specifically for men 50 and up who want to keep the hair they've got. Go to Nutraful.com, promo code BASEBALL, for$10 off your first month's subscription and free shipping. Find out why Nutraful is the only hair growth supplement brand trusted by MLB at Nutraful.com, spelled N-U-T-R-A-F-O-L.com, promo code BASEBALL. That's neutrophil.com Promo code baseball Hey there, it's Wayfair here Where delivery and setup are as easy as a few taps on your phone You're relaxing in an old hammock Scrolling Wayfair's app when you spot it A brand new patio set Next thing you know, Wayfair delivers it right to your patio And sets it up Oh, you need a new grill too?

24:01Alright, Wayfair's got you covered With Wayfair's room of choice delivery And fast expert setup on qualifying orders Life gets a little easier Visit wayfair.com or the Wayfair app Way fair, every style, every home. Thank you for calling the Bombas Comfort Line. Bombas make socks, slippers, tees, and underwear made with the highest quality materials. Press 1 for comfort, 2 for style, 3 for donation. You chose style. Bombas is styles for whatever you enjoy. You can run in Bombas, lounge in Bombas, dress them up, dress them down, but always give back in Bombas. Because with every item purchased, another is donated.

24:36Bombas, comfort worth calling for. Go to babas.com slash audio and use code audio for 20 % off your first purchase. That's B-O-M-B-A-S dot com and use code audio. But listen, you think you'll be all right, but myself and Gareth were in this position last season, talking about Liverpool kicking on, won the league, and here we are now, Gareth. And we haven't got a manager 12 months later after Arne Slott coming in in season one and winning the Premier League. was it the right decision to part with Arne Slott? I think ultimately yes although right now it's still pretty raw from when it happened obviously Saturday afternoon I've got mixed feelings about it I felt when the news come through I thought well why now because everything pointed to the fact that he was going to stay there was talk of a new assistant manager coming in he'd said himself in multiple press conferences I'm involved in summer recruitment.

25:36I expect to be here next year. And so, you know, I was kind of looking forward to going on holiday and sort of forgetting about it a little bit and then bang. And it's taken everyone by surprise. You know, you listen to all the reporters who cover Liverpool week in, week out. It's come from left field that they've decided to suddenly do it. And when they're saying it's based on data and it's based on a review, well, you knew what the data was and you knew what all the problems were, you know, last week. so I didn't really get that equally the other side of me is I'm kind of relieved in a way because I was worried that there was a bit of a Brendan Rodgers type feel about it where next season could be derailed quite quickly, lose a couple of games it goes toxic early and then what are you doing and who are you recruiting and what manager are you going to get at that point and you've missed the transfer window and all of that kind of stuff So there's a part of me that thinks if you're going to do it, well, at least it's done.

26:35They're talking about a new manager being in place before the World Cup even starts. So that then, you think, means there's time to have a good runner by the five or six players we probably need. Yeah, I'm a bit like you. I could live with whatever decision the club made, really. I'd got my head around him staying and I could almost justify it in my head and go, OK, listen there was injuries there was new players coming in the situation with Jota he is a Premier League winning manager the Salah situation on the pitch and off the pitch must have been a nightmare to deal with we don't know what goes on behind the scenes but you can imagine the feeling around you think OK he's moved on I got my head around it a little bit now I was a little bit that I would change the manager but for a certain manager I wouldn't just change him for anyone it wouldn't be a case of Anish that goes and then we're looking for a manager if you could have got like a who I think in my head like a top manager whether it was it was Enrique it might but that was never going to happen but I'd have changed him for Xavi Alonso so as soon as Alonso had gone to Chelsea I was like no I think I'd probably keep him and now it looks like it's going to be Iriola who is I think we all say fantastic to what he's done at Bournemouth but if he had said to me a few weeks ago would you sack Arnaud Slot and bring in Arreola I'd be a bit like oh I'm not sure I don't know because and I say this with all the clubs especially the big six the clubs we associate with winning the title when they make an appointment I look at it and think can I see that fellow winning the league or winning their club the league and the thing I always go back to with Slot is we had a manager who won the league and I know the performances this season were so poor and the results were so poor but it was the performances more than anything so I can get it in going, I get it but I just think a manager from Bournemouth who's never had much European experience managing the Champions League or certainly done that in England three games a week I do think it's a risk, I do It is a risk Well anybody's a risk Anyone's a risk, yeah any move is a gamble I think there's maybe a little bit of a dearth of available top-class managers as well.

29:03I mean, you look at Mourinho who's ended up going back to Madrid and things like that. So, you know, Enrique is the one I think we would have all loved and we would have walked to the end of the earth to get that man. But, you know, he's lifted another Champions League. He's going nowhere. So, that's that done. And then who else is there? With Iola, I think everyone, I like his style of football. It feels more Liverpool, I've got to be honest. I think one of the problems is last season was such a tough watch you know we were going to Anfield and we were just like you know the thing you were looking forward to was having a pint with your mates not the footy and you know you had you know you had Watkins you know basically saying I know Liverpool are terrible at the back and I know I'm going to find space and I'm going to exploit it and you know that was sort of quite telling as well there was all the problems with set pieces there was the start to the games as well which really did my head in.

29:58I mean, if we're playing Man United at Anfield, I expect whoever's wearing the red shirt to go and get stuck in, go and win the first, second balls and all that kind of stuff. We didn't do it. And then it was a repeat of that at Old Stafford. My worry with that, Gareth, is when we're talking about Jair Aola, we're going to go back to that style. Of course, a manager plays his style. But they've recruited for an Arne Slott style, which was not quite Jürgen Klopp, was a bit more control. Now, when we're saying the football wasn't great, you're right, it wasn't. It was slow, laborious. But it wasn't a case of the manager being defensive.

30:33He had a lot of attacking players on the pitch. My thing is now, Isaac, Wirtz, Eketike, I'm not sure they are those type of players. That's my worry. So when we said the football was slow, the pressure wasn't there, it was because we had Wirtz, McAllister in there. Isaac doesn't press. He doesn't play too much. Eketike doesn't really press. so you almost brought these talented players in and they couldn't play this style that we associated with Klopp we saw bits of in his first season and Liverpool went the other way so the reason I said about Alonso is because in the back of my mind I was thinking this is the guy who's got the best out of Florian Wirt in terms of Bayer Leverkusen so we know your most expensive player and he's won and he's won with them he's got the connection with the supporters so that's the one that I'm a little bit like if you were going to change and why would it not be Shabby Alonso?

31:25I think that's where the questions start to go upstairs. If you're doing a review of the season, why doesn't the review of the season include Richard Hughes, who's the director of football, and Michael Edwards, who's the CEO of football? Because they're the people who are responsible for the recruitment and for buying those players off that profile. And it felt like all season... I have sympathy there for Slott in that. He's going to a gunfight with a knife almost every week because he hasn't got the squad. I think there's an extent to which any manager would have struggled with that squad. I think perhaps they could have got more out of them, perhaps there could have been more fight, their tactics might have been different, maybe the set pieces would have been different, whatever.

32:08But equally, it wasn't right, it wasn't done properly, and yet them fellas are apparently keeping their jobs. And they've only got one year each left on their contract, so there's that uncertainty there as well. And so far, nothing's been said about their roles. And in fact, it seems that Richard Hughes has now been allowed to go and recruit another manager in Iola who he's worked with before. So I find all that strange. And one of the things, one of the explanations really as to why they haven't gone for Alonso is being people saying, well, he's too big of a figure and he could have been too close to the fans.

32:46And the nerds, if you like, don't like that. they don't like a manager having that power well I tell you what listen this idea and I've said this for you and this goes back to Chelsea as well I'm sick of these directors of football listen and by the way I've got great respect for what they did in terms of being there with Klopp but the longer Klopp's not there because the people at the top at Liverpool Michael Edwards especially he was there under Brendan Rodgers and it wasn't great Klopp comes in and Michael Edwards and his team obviously are past that and do a great job but the most high profile recruitment team I've heard about in my life Everybody talks about them.

33:20The fans have got them as these gods. As soon as Jürgen Klopp goes, it seems to drop off again. So is Jürgen Klopp the star? I mean, that's what it looks like. Great managers make good players even better. That's what the great managers do. That's what they've always done. And that's what I'm looking at a bit. So this idea that you can just get anybody in as the coach, and this is what Chelsea think as well, just get anyone as the head coach. We do the recruitment. Managers doesn't matter. We just flip them. it matters at Liverpool and that's my little thing about Alonso or Iriola Iriola's done a brilliant job but it's a big jump from Bournemouth to Liverpool if he is the guy with Alonso you've got the playing career the CV the managers he's been managed by what he did at Leverkusen playing in a European getting to a European final as well as winning the league but he's managed I know it didn't go well but he's managed at that level that sort of scrutiny that pressure and that's if they chose Iriola above Alonso because of that well I think that's very worrying for Liverpool going forward if they've chose somebody else because Alonso wants to play a back three or it's his style of football maybe it's a little bit too much like slot okay fair enough they want to go to the high pressing game again but as I said before I'm not sure Liverpool have got the squad right now for that but Shay Weed Sorry I was going to say it's worrying that you mentioned they're bringing an assistant manager in from Holland whatever that was in the pipeline Alonso has just gone to Chelsea a few weeks back so it looks like At no stage they spoke to Alonso and Slott was the man for next season.

34:51So is it the last three or four games that they've really gone, this is not good enough? Or you think at that level or that size of football club, the well-run, the best-run football clubs would have a plan in place. And the plan was for Slott to be there next year. So my question is, what actually happened in the last week or 10 days to sort of throw it all out the window and go, we don't want him anymore? Do you think that got something happened very... I'm not talking about a couple of days ago. I mean, I spoke to someone around the club and they said that the last four or five games of the season actually made a big difference how poor Liverpool were and how they sort of limped across the line to get Champions League football.

35:27They made a big play out of that sort of like, that was the straw that broke the camel's back. Yeah, it would make sense, that, wouldn't it? Because I think Liverpool have been incredibly fortunate to be in the Champions League next season and they almost fell over the line. It was almost down to other clubs underperforming and not grasping the chance to go and get in it themselves because there was an opportunity there at one point where we were looking at Man United and saying, we can catch them there. And then it just tailed off. And even the very last game of the season, we could have lost that in the last couple of seconds of that game.

36:03So there was no control. Chelsea was terrible. I was speaking to, I know he's not here today, but I was speaking to Rory last night and he was saying he couldn't believe that the state therein, they were able to come to Anfield, go 1-0 down and then start dictating the game. And Liverpool are just passive and weak and meek and just letting them have it and letting them come at them. And I think that was worry and that was obviously the game where quite a few fans decided to start booing. There's stuff being in the papers since that apparently slot went absolutely off his head with the players after that game as well.

36:39So if they've had a reassessment then, And I can sort of understand it because, back to what I said earlier, you start to worry about how's next season going to be then and how quickly can it go wrong. And they've gone to great pains from the briefings, it seems, to say, this is definitely not down to we asked the players and the players didn't want them. But I kind of think, well, they're bound to say that. And there is an element of it. I do wonder how many of them actually wanted to play for them next season because I found strange in that last game against Brentford I don't know why Curtis Jones as a scouser scored in front of the Kop and then didn't celebrate and in fact looked angry and I thought what's going on there?

37:21What's in his head? How don't you celebrate that moment? And then even Virgil after the game's ended he's on the pitch just staring up at the stands and again I thought well where's his head at? What's going on there? What's going on inside his mind? Canate's obviously gone as well bizarrely only six weeks ago he was basically after the derby wasn't it he was saying speak to me soon you'll see I'm still here I'm going to take more control I'm going to be a bigger figure at the club now he's gone what's going on there? there's loads of little bits where you're like you're wondering what the hell's going on and maybe we never found out until autobiographies get written in a few years time or whatever but it seems like a lot of mad stuff's going on behind the scenes but you know what I'm a little bit with you and Arne Slott when you look how bad last season was you can't complain too much about the change and as I said I could have gone either way but what I would say is a big thank you to Arne Slott he won us a Premier League title and if someone had said the day Jürgen Klopp announced he was leaving in the next two years we'll win the league and we'll get Champions League football the season after we'd have all bit your hand off 100 % best day of my life because you know children being born sad and things like that because we didn't get to celebrate that other title properly and you know all I ever wanted I've said it on here before was the lads I've always gone the footy with we always said can you imagine that pint when we won the league you know and we never got to have that pint when we won the league when it was the COVID season so Arna Slott got us that moment that we dreamed of for all of our adult lives to have that pint after we won the title so for that Arna Slott on the slot one then when he was announced Liverpool manager were you happy excited about that or were you going like because you mentioned the Areola there before and says, well, I'm not sure.

39:11He's coming from Bournemouth. Can he do the job? Was your mindset when Slott got the job, I'm happy with this guy? Yeah, I mean, it was a bit like people weren't quite sure who he was or know too much about it. But you add that, OK, winning the league with Feyenoord, he's obviously played European football. Listen, we watch your IOL every week. No one can say you don't love watching Bournemouth play. If Bournemouth are on the TV, you're watching them, aren't you? You think, oh, we're going to watch a good game. So you get that. But the point being is how he plays, and I said this at the end of last season, we were talking about the Chelsea manager, it was on Monday Night Football, and we were looking at Chelsea's options and Iriola was there and I actually made the point so I can't go back on it I said I think Iriola's making a mistake leaving Bournemouth because I think the next thing he needs to prove is brilliant manager, great football, high intensity he needs to prove he can manage a European season with the way what he asks of his players physically and when you have a Europe you've got to rotate and you've got to move so all these things come into him and I thought that would be the next step for him just to prove he could still produce the goods in a European season and then he'd get his move to his next club.

40:15It almost feels like it's a year, not too early. Listen, Jürgen Klopp was probably manager of mines and that's the one proved that at Bruce Adortman with that style of football. Do you worry that in Iola's will run them into the ground so early? That's the feeling. Do they get injuries? If you look at most of his seasons, I think the second half of the season they drop off. I think last season was the first time I think they've had a great second half of the season. Normally they're up there at the start of the season So these are the things you have to take into account. And then does the intensity actually have to drop off a little bit so you're not actually getting the full iraiole because you're getting too many injuries, you've got too many games.

40:49And then he's actually going to be more of a footballer manager. You're on the ball more at Liverpool than you are at Bournemouth.

41:01I mentioned I would have swapped Arne's slot for Xabi Alonso, but he's gone to Chelsea. How do you think he'll get on there? Well, he just obviously didn't last long at Real Madrid. That's my worry. And they say that sometimes the players at Real Madrid are running the club. Well, he's joining another club that feels that way at Chelsea that the players have the say. And perhaps you mentioned before about being a head coach and stuff, and it feels like even the powers that be at Chelsea are nearly picking the teams at times, and he's out just sort of coaching the players on the training. But I don't think that'll work with Alonso either.

41:32I don't know if the club can step away. I think they've got a couple of directors. You're talking about one director of football. they've got two or three directors probably bringing all these different players in but a little thing I just wanted to mention before you carry on is they've actually changed this title to manager rather than head coach do you think that obviously well I mean I'd like to think that Xavi coming in as well had a big say in how he wants the club to be run before he's even signed a contract you know he can't have powers that be telling him you've got to pick him you've got to leave Enzo out because he mentioned he wanted to leave the club then give him the captaincy when he comes back and all this they can't have all that Xavi has to be in charge.

42:08But again, it just seems that Chelsea has spent all this money and they're no further forward. In fact, they're going back roads, aren't they? They're going back. And I suppose the perfect fit would be Alonso at Liverpool, but that's gone now. So now can he do it at Chelsea? And he will, as a manager, done so well, as you mentioned at Liverpool, in a sense failed at Real Madrid. You can call it whatever you want. You can call it the players who are running the club, but people will look at it. It didn't work at Real Madrid. I think you mentioned there were four points off top when he got sacked, but it just didn't work because he got sacked that's the bottom line now there's pressure on that position because we see how quickly Chelsea go through their managers but again what he'd done at Leverkusen and won in the league and been unbeaten it was just amazing what he'd done there so sort of watch this watch this space as they say The other one the big one is Pec Wadiola leaving it's a huge loss isn't it for the Premier League really and you know one of the greatest managers we've ever seen possibly the greatest manager of all time I would say but do you worry where this Leeds City when you think of Ferguson leaving Manchester United you think of Wenger leaving Arsenal those huge figures in the Premier League do you think this could take a couple of years for City to get back I mean it's well run I know Hugo Vianna's in there I obviously play with Hugo at Newcastle and he's look at what the window did in January bringing in Gehi and Semenyo and stuff so I think the players are there and then again they'll go again this summer obviously big players are leaving Bernardo Silva John Stones is leaving obviously the manager is the biggest one he has talk about being head coach but he has been the manager of that football club.

43:36He has it all to say with everyone coming to the club. So there will be a trepidation a little bit or a little bit of worry from the fans and the people at the very top of Man City. Can Maresca, I think that's the talk, he's not done yet, but Maresca's the man he's been there before, he's an assistant, of course he knows the club well. Can he sort of keep the reins, keep this club ticking on and by I mean by ticking on, win the Premier League, get back to the Champions League finals? That's where Manchester City belong now. You know, they're not going to take a step back. They want to keep pushing hard.

44:07Absolutely. Well, you know, I think there was an inkling in a lot of City fans, when Pep signed that two-year deal, that he might just do one and go. And I'm really glad he didn't go last season because that would have been a proper, you know, dampener to go out only winning a community shield. Wouldn't have been, you know, a good way for Pep to go. But he's had, you know, 10 seasons, 20 trophies. Like Jamie said, I think he's the best manager we've ever seen. And yeah, you know, the dream ending would have been to see him winning, you know, another Premier League title winning a Champions League but to get two trophies in his final season Pep to go out and I hope he had a chuckle watching you know Gabriel sail that penalty into the sky you know what weird comment that is why would he have a chuckle there?

44:47maybe he wouldn't but I think a lot of City fans City fans will have was it? what was Harland's picture about that? I don't know he puts it on social media you'll have to ask Harland mate I don't speak for Harland but you're speaking for Pep Guardiola I said I hope he had a chuckle I don't know if he did but yeah you know like Shea said Arsenal were the best team in England this season they won the league Pep couldn't get that one over the line but he got two trophies 20 as well like I'm sure you know a Palace fan to win three trophies how good that is a Villa fan winning a trophy Liverpool winning the league last season West Ham winning a trophy Arsenal winning a trophy these are like monumental days in history for these clubs and Pep's managed to do that 20 times for City so 18 you what mate?

45:3018 it was 20 I thought you don't count community shields I just said the Palace won three trophies mate so I've just counted it so yeah winning a treble getting 100 points winning a domestic quadruple winning four league titles in a row that is all going to come to an end it has come to an end not necessarily the trophies but Pep Guardiola's reign at City it's come to an end I don't think the trophies will come to an end because Maresca's a proven winner you know Leicester he got them promoted to the Championship he takes on a way bigger role so you're saying I'm not saying anybody can manage Manchester City.

46:01I'm not saying anyone can manage. I'm saying Mareske has gone and beaten PSG 3-0 in a final of the Club World Cup. Last summer he won the treble at City. I believe he's credited to an extent with... He won the what? When he was at City, he won the Champions League as part of the backroom staff, didn't he? And obviously he's been at the club before. He knows the club. I believe he was credited with... It's not Carson, he's the fourth choice keeper or not. Giving City a back four of four centre-backs. I believe he was involved with that tactically. So, you know, if he gets the job, which it looks like he is going to, he's proven he can win trophies at Chelsea.

46:33He got two there last season. He's walked away. There was talk as to whether maybe he walked away because, you know, the control of the players, what was going on. Did he not have enough control? And he seems like a strong head. So I'm personally pretty happy with Mareska. People were talking, would he be the right move? I'm pretty confident now that the way Pep's left the club, you look at, like you said, you know, when Wenger left Arsenal, when obviously Fergie left United. There was talk that maybe they were on a massive downward. But, you know, Fergie did win the league in his last season.

47:04Was that group of players prepared to go and keep winning? It wasn't. So I think this City team, you know, they've got to prove themselves next season. They've won two trophies in Pep's last season. What have they got? And I think, you know, Maresca, can they go and do a job? He's in a decent position to do so. I think, I was a fan of Maresca at Chelsea. I thought he was a really good manager, coach. I looked at the games when he came up against Liverpool. He gave Liverpool a really tough time, really clever with how he did things. Obviously worked under Pep before as well. So I think he's a really top coach, competent manager, but obviously he's not Pep Guardiola, we will see.

47:38But I'm only asking this because this is here, by the way. Has Pep Guardiola left because he thinks... No, but nobody knows the verdict of that bar a three-man panel. so if Pep somehow magically knows then I don't know how he's done that well he is Pep if anyone's going to know he'll know well I mean that would be breaching every part of the contract and is that why is that why you've got a manager then who's got championship experience because we need league two experience by the sound I think there's a way someone said there's a way that you could get relegated and we could stay up yeah is that right if that happens book's been closed we saw Bruno Fernandes get an assist because the season had ended so I think I think your chance is staying up, mate.

48:23I think you're clutching, to be honest at that. Can I ask a question? Go on, mate. What do you think went wrong for City this season? What went wrong for City this season? I think, ultimately, the squad itself had some good heads in it. It had Bernardo Silva, it had Stones that were on their way out. We dropped too many points in games where we were winning, effectively. In the league, that's what went wrong. In the Champions League, we had a very poor first leg against Real Madrid. The second leg, we started off terribly with a red card. so the Champions League was gone in the league there was games like West Ham away we were ahead and drew Tottenham away Brighton at home Chelsea at home Sunderland away these were games we should have won and the majority of those we were leading and we didn't get those points and then when we finally got close level just ahead of Arsenal with five or six games to go that worked I'm asking why were you dropping these leads so frequently because Man City that's not like the City that we've seen for the last ten years yeah that's true well like I said You know, it's a young, it's a transitional season, it's a transitional team.

49:24And in that season, like I said, we've won two trophies. In the league, maybe at times we did lack the experience. So, if Arsenal would have done what City did in the league, we'd all have said they bottled it. Oh, absolutely, yeah. City bottled it. Arsenal haven't got, well, I don't think if Arsenal had done what City had done, we'd have said they bottled it. Yeah, but you said it's a new team. Say that again, sorry. Say it's a new team. It's partially a new team, yeah, but at no point in Arteta's reign anyway. So, the new team we're talking about. Get out of there, mate. not a Champions League one is it that one's silver mate anyway yeah what was the question again sorry I got into it you're just trying to get more thinking time no you just you said it's a new team so they had an experience what I'm saying did this team they are the treble winners yeah but in Arteta's reign at no point did Arsenal get you know from miles behind close and then not make it not get it over the line Arsenal were heaps and bound whatever the word is they were miles ahead of City and ultimately what happened is they've lost that huge lead and when they did lose that big lead again they kicked on like a champions team do and they won the league.

50:26So like I said, you've got to credit Arsenal but with this City team, we were miles behind. We created those problems ourselves. No one until maybe I'd say February, March when we started picking up points, when Arsenal dropped off, when we beat them in the League Cup final, when we beat them again at the Etihad. At that point people said, can City go and do it? And we didn't do it. We didn't do it. But no Arsenal season under Arteta anyway compares to the City one here where we've caught them and they're not quite got there, if that makes sense. Top of the league with, I think, four or five games to go is a little bit of a bottle job, in my opinion.

51:00Well, it's not, is it? A little bit. Because you led this season for like 300 days. I'd say a bottle job personally is going up 1-0 in two European Cup finals and losing them both. It's a great deflection. It's a brilliant deflection.

51:20Shae, looking back at Pep Guardiola's time at City, how much of an impact he had on the English game? Amazing, yeah. I mean, I think the way he's revolutionized, we spoke before about how he's changed the game, and a lot of teams play that way. We've seen managers come to the Premier League and do different things, but you see different managers, not just in the Premier League, you see around Europe, and you see even the Championship, playing out from the back, playing through the thirds, the way he's changed football, I think is incredible. I mean, one thing I'd dislike a little bit, you know, for example, he's very structured in some of the systems he plays and in a sense takes the freedom away.

51:55Look at the Champions League the weekend, Carver Skelly and stuff like, if he was maybe in a pep team, would he be more saying, you know, I want you to do less dribbles, sorry, keep your shape and all that kind of stuff. So sometimes you can be overcoached, but when you won 20 trophies in 10 years, you can't really criticise too much. I don't know, I think he'll be missed, not just for Manchester City fans I think the Premier League he's a huge personality when it comes to the Premier League around the world as well and it's a big big shoes to fill it really is has Maresca got the personality to do that only time will tell but Pep Guardiola he goes he goes with a lot of you know people saying like what an unbelievable unbelievable career he's had but of course anyone who's worked on him any player who's played on him it's just every day was a learning curve and the sort of levels he goes to and the depths he goes to when it comes to coaching and stuff I think even as pundits we probably learn from when you're watching your Monday Night Football you think what's Pep doing what systems he's doing and that for me is one of the reasons why I said a few weeks ago that I think he is the I think for me I don't need to debate whether he's the best manager in the world or maybe of all time when he finishes but just the Premier League now I did a newspaper column that ruffled a few feathers where I said not like you Jimmy that no I think Pep Guardiola is the best manager we've had in the Premier League.

53:17But obviously the debate is, is it Pep Guardiola? Is it, say, Alex Ferguson? Now, before you get into it, I'm going to make the case for my defence of why I went for him. I mean, the trophies speak for themselves, obviously. I think the football and the influence he's had on the game and almost everybody's trying to, it feels like copy Pep. And it's not just playing good football. It's like, even Liverpool, Jürgen Klopp, had a spell where they put Trent Alexander-Arnold in midfield from full back that was Pep who was doing that at Bayern Munich you know things like that when he first came to English football I think he had a midfield where he had sort of De Bruyne and Silva as almost number 10 and one centre midfielder and I remember Gary on Monday Night Football a guy who's won 7 or 8 Premier League titles saying you can't win the Premier League playing like that and I mean he was proven wrong but I could understand what he was saying you're thinking you need power you need that strength in the Premier League he won it like that he's changed the team that much that you don't even you don't even remember them missing anybody so company left who we'd say one of the best centre backs David Silva arguably City's or certainly probably in the top three or four players ever Sergio Aguero one of the greatest strikers you don't remember them missing them I think he won a league with no centre forward once he is so the point and when I'm comparing it to sort of Sir Alex Ferguson as well who as Adam knows I've got unbelievable respect and admiration for even being a Liverpool man.

54:43They did the treble that United did. They won the league four times that United didn't do in a row. They won a domestic treble. It's like, I was making all these arguments when I was making, and I'll go to you, Adam, because obviously you're Fergie's man, I get that. Is there an argument, when I'm making these four or five arguments, why I would sort of put Pep just slightly above Sir Alex in the Premier League, What would be the argument against what I've just said? I think when you look at the club that Sir Alex Ferguson took over, Pep Guardiola took over a side that had already won the league.

55:20United were a long, long way away from that. He had to change the culture of the club. He had to change the academy and how that was working. He had to do everything. He had to put the roots in to be able to grow something from there. I think you look at the period as well between 1990 to 2001. Fergie won 20 trophies in that time as well. He won the treble, large nucleus of academy players. In his period at Manchester United... What was that, 1992? 2001, he won 20 trophies. And then obviously between 01 and 2013, he won a lot more as well. I think you look at the players that he did it with, the academy and all those kind of things that came through.

55:54I think in Fergie's time at United, he was only the top spender three times. It's kind of like this myth that Fergie outspent everyone and he was always spending money. and I just think when you look at the amount of times he revolutionised the team as well kept changing three or four different squads built those the managers he came up against as well I don't think he'd be allowing Arnest Slott or Arteta to take his title he was coming up against Wenger the greatest Arsenal manager ever Mourinho I think Jurgen Klopp gave him a bit of a run for his money didn't he? Jurgen Klopp was unbelievable obviously I wouldn't say Liverpool's team was the best Premier League team they've had in that time but the Chelsea Arsenal teams were 99 points 99 and 97 points Liverpool team That's what I said I said the Chelsea team was the greatest team he came up against the Arsenal team was the greatest team he came up against the Liverpool team obviously was the one that Pep went up against but I think when you look at the way he did it as well and for me it's 115 big reasons why we've got to look at that Adam listen You have to look at that If that comes out and City are guilty I wouldn't look at that and go that means Pep's not a good manager I'd look at the hierarchy and a lot of that goes before Pep I'm not trying to defend City here but in that time Man United spent more money than Man City in that time we're talking about didn't they?

57:15Yeah we've been horrendous since Fergie left yeah Yeah but that's what I'm saying it's not like he spent more than anybody Pep Guardiola's obviously a great coach I'm not arguing against that but you have to look at the clubs that they both came into and Fergie You know that point there, that's interesting you say that, Adam. I agree. Man City, I think, had won the league a couple of times with different managers. They were obviously always going to be top three or four. We scraped. When Ferguson came in and people said how bad the club was, you know Man United better than me. I'm only saying this from afar.

57:46I remember sort of the early 80s when Atkinson. Man United were always there or thereabouts. They were a cup team, though. I know, yeah, but if you don't win the league, you are a cup team, obviously. So what I'm saying is, but you're always chasing Liverpool. You're always in the top three or four. when he took over and I'm not trying to knock Ferguson I'm just saying this thing that he'd come in with Man United were terrible Man United in 85-86 should have won the league the season before Ferguson comes in the season his first full season Man United finished second in 87-88 his first full season Man United then had a few poor seasons because of poor buys in about like 88-89 you were 12-13 that was on the back of buying Neil Webb or Paul Lince or Danny Wallace players he brought in Jim Leighton in goal it didn't that's why that's why a little bit and I'm not Ferguson obviously absolutely adore him but what I'm saying is it took him a bit of time to get going it wasn't just the club it was he made a lot of buys that didn't work but he was also investing a lot of time into the academy changing those things and I think that's massively important and for a club like United it's super important when you look at the academy record that we've got so I think the the stature of the club at the time whilst Manchester United were one of the biggest clubs in the country, it was still a lot different.

59:00And then people always throw the Champions League thing back at him as well. Like, early stages, you know, we could only play three foreigners in the team in the early days. And then obviously we had a few slip-ups, but Soli Pepp lost against Monaco. I think we lost against Monaco as well in 97. I think it was the Dortmund game when we lost against them by Leverkusen. That was a bad one. But eventually he got there and he won two of them. But if we were talking all around, the whole careers, who would you put on top? Ferguson? What Fergie did at Aberdeen was unbelievable. Yeah, unbelievable. Did the two Champions League finals come into your...

59:36If you look at the team we had in 2011, we shouldn't have even been in that final. I think we had Valencia, Rafael, Fabio, Darren Gibson scored in a Champions League semi-final. Fergie was working his magic at that point and he had to compete with... You say we've spent a lot of money in the Pep Guardiola era, which is true. From 2005 onward, Fergie had to deal with, we sold Cristiano Ronaldo for a world record fee. We brought in Gabriel Olberto, Valencia and Michael Owen. He was dealing with the Glazers and he covered up for him a little bit at times as well, which United fans didn't like, but he was dealing with the Glazer ownership that weren't really investing in the team in that period of time.

1:00:15It changed from 2013 onward, so I think you have to credit Fergie massively. and for me it will always be great I couldn't get a less way I'd be the same I go back quite far obviously I've been an older fan and I remember the first season United won it under we went toe to toe with you that season and we dropped off at the end but I agree with Adam I'd put Fergie above Pep simply because all the reasons I was just thinking when he was talking all the reasons Adam said he's totally right United weren't nowhere near where City were when Pep came in and with all due respect to Pep he's a brilliant coach and he has revolutionised football but the three clubs he's managed he's had so much wealth you don't put Lewis Hamilton in the worst car though why would Pep ever test that?

1:00:56Yeah but he's had everything he could have possibly needed whereas Fergie built an empire and yeah you can say he did that when he first came and got that runners up spot then it dropped off but to come back from that whilst building that academy My only thing was it took seven years to win the league I just think if you wouldn't get listen it was a different time But the multiple evolutions that he had at the time They're a different kind of managers as well because obviously talk about Pep like revolutionising the game inverted fullbacks in the midfield false nines and all because Fergie was more an old school manager wasn't he yeah yeah but the way he ran the club you mentioned the academy from top to bottom and had to rebuild that whole club I think Alex Ferguson is the biggest figure character when you think of the Premier League you think of Alex Ferguson you don't think of Pep in terms like his press conference or mind games or maybe bust ups with his own players he was a huge what I was trying to get at was Fergie was he always brought a good number two in the year and the assistant to do the tactical shape he was kind of more of an old school manager but he just evolutionised every few years rebuilt the team new ideas he was willing to tackle them on board the vote's coming out but I just think the Champions League finals just for me they weren't just wins they were you also lost the Champions League final against the Porto Chelsea team no but I'm talking about when they come up against two great teams Messi and Ronaldo were in both teams it was Ferguson and Pep Guardiola.

1:02:19I know you're saying one of them. 2011 we didn't have a run. OK, but the other game was still a bit of a... And by the way, they had some injuries that game. I think Jaya Tori played centre-back. Good player. Let's put it to the vote. Who's going Pep Guardiola?

1:02:38So Alex Ferguson wins. One thing on Fergie though, I remember Fergie's last game at Manchester United and my dad turning to me and saying, and this is what you're about to go through, he went, you're going to learn what it's like to be a real football fan now son. And that's how I feel for you because your head's a bit in the sand and it's going to get real quick. Right Adam talking about being a real football fan are you going to need to go through a few ups and downs again this season with Michael Carrick in charge are you happy with that? I'm happy yeah I mean obviously there weren't like I think Rabo made the point earlier you see Real Madrid getting Mourinho in and there isn't a depth of managerial talent out there it feels at the moment and I think Michael Carrick's brought a little bit of calm and measuredness to the Manchester United thing we're going into a summer without the hysteria that we usually have when we get a new manager and we're thinking, oh, what players is he going to bring in and how are we going to play?

1:03:33And the idea of all these new managers seems to be better than it is when they actually get to working on the football pitch. And I'm really excited to see what he can do. I'm looking forward to this summer. But he just all feels very calm. And I think he deserves a lot of credit for what he's done at United. He's calmed things down. He's got results on the football pitch. The crowd's bouncing again. It feels great to be back in the Stretford and at Old Trafford. and you could feel it under Amarimi, it just kind of got a little bit... It just couldn't be arsed, really. You just turn up and you'd be like, we're going to see some boring football again and the manager's going to gaslight us after and it's just going to feel crap.

1:04:08And I think Karrick has made it feel a little bit calmer and just... I'm looking forward to this season. Obviously, it's... The Premier League next season, I think, is a little bit open. I think Arsenal are obviously the overwhelming favourites going into the campaign. But you look at all the other clubs, we don't know what Liverpool are going to be like, we don't know what Chelsea are going to be like, I don't know what City are going to be like. There's a big opportunity there to maybe challenge. I think the goal has to be to get into the top four. That has to be the goal for the season. But if you can get yourself into December and you're not too far away, there's no reason why we can't.

1:04:39We have to have a big summer. Because you finished third this season, I had this little debate with Gary at the end of the season after the United-Liverpool game about, I'm almost saying, don't get kidded by United this season because I think it's a little bit of a, I think I used the word, false economy in terms of no European football, didn't even get to a quarterfinal. I think you went out in the first round of both cup competitions. Yeah. So what I'm saying is that's not normal. That's not going to happen next season. So it's going to be different. But on the back of finishing third, and you're saying a little bit of a situation with other clubs, are you expecting a title challenge?

1:05:10I wouldn't start off the season's title challenge. If someone offered you Champions League football now, would you take that for next season? Oh, yeah. But at the same time, I think if you look at where, let's say we compare this season to what could potentially happen next season, I think a lot of the points that we dropped were at home. I think you look at you think that Everton, West Ham, Wolves, Bournemouth, etc. is at home. So it's not like we have to get better against playing against Man City and Arsenal and all these teams. We have to get better playing against those teams at home. Now obviously, pressures change once you are a little bit closer to the top two teams or the top one team.

1:05:44And if you are in a title race, you start to see players acting differently. That wouldn't be the goal for me at the start of the season. It's consolidate, get top three again and see where we can go. but there might be an opportunity to open up and I think if we can invest wisely in the summer. Who? What age? I think that midfield has to get, we have to go big in midfield. In a similar way to last summer, we kind of went, let's address this front three and we brought in three quality players. I think we have to do the same with the midfield. I'd be looking at three players in the midfield as well.

1:06:16Any names? We're being linked to Edison at the moment. I'm a little bit torn on that one. I don't know too much about him, granted, but from what I have seen, I don't feel like he would be a first choice for us. But if he comes in as the third option, I don't mind that. I like Mateus Fernandes at West Ham. There may be an opportunity there. I still like Carlos Buleba, despite him having a little bit of a flatter season this season. Chiuamani could become available if things change at Real Madrid. I don't think we'll get Elliot Anderson. Bernardo Silva's best days are behind him. I don't think he'd ever come to Manchester United anyway.

1:06:50Strange, strange Fernandes has been relegated two seasons in a row by the way so watch out Yeah, watch out I mean Ruben Amri mated him which tells me he's probably a good player to be honest but I think if you look at the two of Maynes Adam Wharton I think we need one of those kind of top players and then two players that can that can rotate and come in You just mentioned because of the upheaval in other clubs there might be something where you may be challenged for the title Who do you think would finish higher next season? Manchester United or Man City oh no what a bad question we were as close to you as you were to Arsenal it's been 13 13 seasons in a row we finished above United so that's like asking I don't know Birmingham City I think you're in for a massive shock they're not finished above us I don't think I don't think it'll be that big a shock I think Man City will definitely finish above Man City and why I say that is because you've already kicked them up and send me that they're going to be Champions League Man United's going to be Champions League next season and as you mentioned in the other cup competitions as well.

1:07:50I think that'll be a huge sort of pull in their squad. Unless they go and get six, seven players. That has to be the aim, I think. That's what I'm saying. Because at the minute, they're wafer thin and it's been okay Saturday to Saturday. And that's probably worked in Carrick's favour as well. He's got the job because, I mean, Bruno's got player of the season and he's got all these assists. But if he's going to Real Madrid on a Wednesday and coming back, playing Bournemouth away on the Saturday at 12.30, there's so much extra strain on that squad. So I definitely think City will finish at both of them.

1:08:18Because I do believe City they will go again this summer as well and strengthen where the new manager wants to strengthen as well. And these players are hardened up to Wednesday, Saturday, whereas the United players aren't. I'll tell you what, you said there was a bad question, should you have a vote? Well, you've got to bear in mind there's going to be a 55-point deduction. Exactly. Well, if that comes in, then it's different, isn't it? You know what I mean? That'll be close then. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

1:08:52Hey, sweetie, your mother showed me this Carvana thing for selling the car. I'm going to give it a try. Wish me luck. Me again. I put in the license plate. It gave me an offer. Unbelievable. Okay, I accepted the offer. They're picking it up Tuesday from the driveway. I haven't even left my chair. It's done. The car is gone. I'm holding a check. Anyway, Carvana, give it a whirl. Love ya. So good, you'll want to leave a voicemail about it. Sell your car today on Carvana. Pick up fees may apply. We all belong outside. We're drawn to nature. It calls to us. Whether it's the recorded sounds of the ocean we doze off to, or the succulents that adorn our homes, nature makes all of our lives richer, calmer, and frankly, better.

1:09:44Despite all this, we often go about our busy lives removed from it. But the outdoors is closer than we realize. With AllTrails, you can discover trails nearby or trails worth traveling to and explore confidently with offline maps and on-trail navigation. Whether you're looking for a laid-back walk with family or something more adventurous to get your heart pumping, AllTrails gives you the tools you need to get out there and find your outside. Download the free app today and make the most of your summer with AllTrails. Thank you for calling the Bombas Comfort Line. Bombas make socks, slippers, tees, and underwear made with the highest quality materials.

1:10:28Press 1 for comfort, 2 for style, 3 for donation. You chose style. Bombas is styles for whatever you enjoy. You can run in Bombas, lounge in Bombas, dress them up, dress them down, but always give back in Bombas. Because with every item purchased, another is donated. Bombas, comfort worth calling for. Go to bombas.com slash audio and use code audio for 20 % off your first purchase. That's B-O-M-B-A-S dot com and use code audio.

1:10:55Justin, how have we left you so long? I don't know. On the back of such a great... I think he's not saying nothing. Because all this managerial chat, he's thinking, I'm just going to put my hat on, right? Yeah. No one mentioned Una Emery for the Liverpool job or for... Oh, I'm not worried about that. They've had a lot of time and they've had a lot of time to talk about a team that won a European Cup final or not the European Cup but a European final. I'm happy to sit here and wipe my term. What was it like just when you were there? Yep. You know what? Listen, I've got to be honest and I'll probably speak like I didn't want Arsenal to win.

1:11:26I don't like to see my rivals win a big trophy. Someone at the back there is pointing his arms up. Are you an Arsenal fan? No. Go on, explain that then Premiership side Playing at Champions League Yeah You're not spotting Who's your team? Nonsense I'm breakfast OK No, but it's interesting I've seen you throw your hands up I could But the point I'm trying to make is I was delighted for Villa And I was delighted for Palace But if it was at Chelsea Arsenal Man United Man City Who I see as Liverpool's rivals I would never want to see them Win a European trophy See, unfortunately that makes me a bit sad because that means you don't see Villa as a rival.

1:12:05Maybe if you were in the Champions League I'd feel differently but the fact that it was the Europa League... Do you not put Villa at that level now then? No. Do you think Villa can challenge for the Premier League next season? The only thing that will stop us next season, we'll obviously get into that, is our recruitment again. We're going to another summer when we're going to have to... Do you have your money to spend now this summer? We're hamstrung again. This is the fourth season in a row. We're going to go into a summer with who knows who's got to leave. There's big talks of Morgan Rodgers going and having to level the books again, which is going to be very difficult.

1:12:34How can you ever compete? This is the problem. We compete because of one reason, Unai Emera. Four seasons in a row we've been in. We've finished European qualification every season. If we hadn't lost United last game last season, we'd have been three Champions League qualifications in a row. We've got two in a row. He's put the first European trophy for 43 years, the first trophy of any kind for 30 years. and with all of the managerial merry-go-rounds going on, I think last time I came, Jamie asked me, do I think Unai is the best manager in the Premier League? And I said, no. I said, I think he's number two behind Pep.

1:13:06I will upgrade that now. He's now comfortably the best manager in the Premier League without any question. What is that to do at Villa since he came in 17th under Gerrard to qualify for the Conference League in that first season, which was no one would have even ever said that when he walked through the door, could he qualify for Europe? and then to do it consistently for the next three seasons. This season, I mean, Spurs won the Europa League last year and finished 17th. We've now won the Europa League and finished in European qualification again. We've had our best player missing for half a season, got injured in January.

1:13:40The other two of our three midfielders got injured for two months. Everybody wrote us off. I was listening to all kinds of other podcasts, everyone saying when they were trying to predict their top four for the end of the season. Nobody mentioned Villa again. And I've had it again today. Now, nobody mentions Villa for anything. I understand that we've got this problem with finances, so we are constantly having to fight that all the time and try and be very clever with the way we bring players in and out. But he's managed to do all this on the low... I think our net spend since Emery came in is lower than Burnley.

1:14:15I agree with what you've just said in terms of Emery being the best manager. I said that a lot, I think, over the last year or two, that besides Pep Guardiola, when you look at what he's achieved or his body of work I mean he won the Europa League for is it five times now is it? Five times I mean it's How is he not on that shortlist for manager of the year? I know it was unbelievable Six managers You think Unai Emery would you think he could walk back into Arsenal and win us the league and get us to a Champions League final? If you'd have had the confidence in Emery that you've given to Arteta and given him the freedom that Villa have given him which was never going to happen you would be multiple Premier League champions I'm a big fan of Arteta but it's only I mean I know it's the Premier League, but he's won two trophies in seven years.

1:14:56Yeah. But Arteta's spent£1.1 billion since he's come in. And you go to a Champions League final, he sets up like Sam Allardyce. You're acting like Villa are a massive underdog. Unai Emery is a terrific manager. You've got a really good team. Four years, we've got a lower net spend than Burnley. Yeah, you've got a really good team. What manager can do what he's done in that time with that budget? But then what's the next step? And don't forget. What's the next step? The next step was to win a trophy. We've done that now. and now the next step is to go and win another one but next year, the key for me next season is Champions League qualification again we need that two year qualification because when we got Champions League qualification two years ago that really helped release a little bit of the financial shackles and then we dropped into the Europa League albeit that meant we could go and win it but that then created this problem where we've had to comply with European regulations which is insane and now we've qualified again for the Champions League.

1:15:52So next year, hopefully, things will lift a little bit more. And then if we can do it again... I mean, all I ever talk about when I come on here is money. It's sad, though, isn't it? It's sad because we've got a manager, we've got an ownership that can compete with anybody in the Premier League. We've got a manager... But the Israels came in because of clubs like you. No, they didn't come in. They got generated by clubs like them. That would just kick it back up to them. It is absolutely insane. We've got everything to compete at the very, very top. it's sad how much your club's ripping off your fans as well isn't it you know£99 tickets for Champions League that's football isn't it it's like absolutely shocking just going back to Unai Emery then he's an elite manager in my opinion elite manager and we're not we're talking about obviously the Real Madrid job the Liverpool job's still on the table and then you're talking about a net spend less than Burnley do you worry from an Aston Villa point of view they go one of these clubs eventually the way I say that is because he's handcuffed and he's qualifying for Europe He's just won the Europa League.

1:16:47He's an elite manager. But it's something, part of his brain must be like, I can go to a Real Madrid, I can go to a Liverpool and be a Premier League winner, Madal, Champions League winner. This comes up quite a lot, Shay, to be honest. That's my worry. At the moment, no, I don't see that. Because what he's building, it'd be almost utterly pointless to do what he's done in four years. And like I say, if he does get another Champions League qualification next year, at some point these shackles will be released and then he can hopefully go and really, really have a go. and I think to set the foundations he has and then not go on and take advantage of what he's built would be a real shame.

1:17:22Yeah, obviously in another two years' time, if we're still where we are and a bigger job come... I always said Real Madrid, Barcelona type clubs are the only two that could possibly take him away but I don't see a Premier League club currently giving him the freedom. He's got this God-like head control at Willa though, hasn't he? And he won't get that at other places. And I totally agree with what you're saying about the money side of it. And, you know, Villa do, you know, these prices, season tickets have gone up 5 % again. And I've always sat really on the fence. I sort of, I understand that football, like many things, is so priced.

1:17:58But money in football is ridiculous, isn't it? From every single aspect. Players' costs, players' wages, agent fees. And clubs, it's such a shame that clubs feel like they have to then put that cost onto fans. because I'd love it to be 20 quid. I really would, but it's not going to happen. It's a false economy, though. What they lose is generations of other fans coming, bringing your kid, that kind of stuff. It's a decision that clubs have to make and they have to leave all the time. I don't think they actually profit anything off it. I think it's very, very cheap to start trying to charge fans that have made your club.

1:18:30You look back 100 years, it's these generations. You look back in history, these are the people that made the club. 100%. Hang on, I don't think we should be... This is a football game. This is not an Aston Villa thing. Yeah, I'm not saying, oh, I'm not Hound and Aston Villa by any way. Liverpool had a situation with the owners back down. There was something going on at City about 6-12 months ago. Yeah, and by no means Hound and Aston Villa. I'm just saying generally. But don't forget the point. Next season, we've got one of our stands. We've got three stands. We've got 37 ,000 in the Champions League next season.

1:18:56And we are the only team in the Premier League that has to constantly battle finances. So I sort of understand what the club's thought process is. I don't agree with it. I think it's wrong to charge 99 quid for a ticket. Let me put that out there right now. It's wrong. But the club are thinking, how on earth do we get to a point, with what they have given us, you know, a trophy, four years of European qualification, brilliant games, brilliant nights at Villaport, beaten Bayern Munich, beating Paris Saint-Germain. It's not for everyone, obviously. But, you know, doing all these things and having the time of my life I've had over the last four years, which I couldn't have dreamed of when Steven Gerrard left on the day when we lost to Fulham 4-1.

1:19:40It's insane. So for me at the moment, I'm sort of saying I will accept it as long as we keep pushing forward. The problem is where's the line? We're as big as club as anybody in the Premier League. You've got to remember that, mate. Honestly, you haven't been around as long as I have. Villa are as big as club as anybody in the Premier League. And if we can release the shackles, and no offence to Liverpool, you know you're saying 400 million they spent in the summer and you're saying the squad wasn't capable of competing we spent net 30 million and we've won a trophy and finished four I think it's unbelievable what Villa have done mate sorry to keep interrupting you but I'm really curious about Emery if you think that he's the best manager comfortably in the Premier League and Shea's talking about all these other clubs needing management why is no one sniffing around for him because he's I think clubs have that's the reality there's a lot of I think to be so Unai Emery I think eventually at some stage of his career will want to win the Champions League what he's done in the Europa League is unbelievable but whether you're a player or manager you don't want to be known as the Europa League man the next level of the Champions League he's had a couple of opportunities at what we'd call the elite clubs in terms of Paris Saint-Germain and Arsenal and it hasn't quite worked now is that because he doesn't have the full control in terms of running the whole ship like he does at Aston Villa and also is probably his style of management obviously I've never been managed by him but he's almost micro-manager with his players and meetings now whether the absolute superstar players you know the best players in the world would sort of want Unai Emery in team meetings every day I don't know that's probably one of the reasons why but when you actually look at his body of work and what he's won and the clubs he's been at right now when you look at the Premier League and we've all got new managers at most of the clubs and I know you're thinking Arteta but it's Arteta's first job he's done a brilliant job but he's won the Premier League after seven years he won one FA Cup I think he's still got a few more trophies to go where he could have a body of work where you could look at what Unai Emery's done yes at lesser clubs and he still probably hasn't proven himself as the real elite giant Champions League club that might be next for him in terms of I think he's a good point and I think why I think he probably didn't work at Arsenal and maybe not so much at PSG is that he went in and try to put his philosophy in to those hyper-massive clubs, massive personalities, the biggest players in the world.

1:22:09But what Avila is doing now, he's put this, like I say, foundation in place. So if we can break through the glass room, if we're close to doing now, then he can start bringing those top, top players in and then they will have to buy into what the club is, the philosophy of the club is. And I think that's a lot easier to do when you've had four years to build something than leaving and going to Real Madrid and saying from day one five hour meetings lads no we ain't doing that but at Villa it's you come into that group of players that know that it's a five hour meeting you either say yeah I'm up for it or I don't sign whereas I think that's a lot easier way and I think that's where he's at that's why I say over the next two three years it's going to be critical to break that real real top glass Do you think they can challenge for the Premier League title in two or three years?

1:22:56Yeah I think eventually yeah

1:23:04I was delighted that you were I really was and I was also delighted to see Crystal Palace win the Conference League Dan I mean what a time you've had over the last what couple of years well you can look at sort of 13 months really with the FA Cup final the Community Shield and this and you know obviously it's easy to come on here and say time of my life but it genuinely has been you know you look back to at 2010 and the club was going to be liquidated. We had to go to Sheffield Wednesday. We had to get a draw. We had nine players in the first team that summer. We've since done 13 straight years in the Premier League, been in two FA Cup finals.

1:23:42Just, you know, every single year, it's very easy, I think, for neutrals to look at Oliver Glasner and say, that's the guy that's completely changed it. And he has, you know, he came in, he said, I'm not a magician. And everyone's like, well, you're a liar because you've come in and you've completely transformed the club. But it's not just that Oliver Glasner turned up and suddenly we became this team. You know, there are foundations, there are all sorts of players that I could name across the last 15 or 16 years that have built us to this point. But one thing Oliver Glasner did do was change the mentality and the expectation of the squad.

1:24:13Because I think if you look at Roy Hodgson, the definition of a safe pair of hands, you know, someone that came in, wanted to stabilise, kept us in mid-table, we were never going to be relegated, but it wasn't a case of us aiming for the stars. And Oliver Glasner came in and said, why not? And I think it took not just the fans and the players, but the ownership as well, six to 12 months, to sort of understand that it was possible. And for us to get in the FA Cup run, I mean, we went to Fulham in the quarterfinal, and it just felt different. You know, we won that game, we took Villa apart in the semi, probably the best 90-minute performance I've ever seen out of a Palace team.

1:24:48And Justin would probably back up. We battered him that day. Played City in the final. No one really gave us a chance from a neutral perspective. win and won that, then go and win a community shield against the Premier League champions. And I know that people don't take the community shield seriously in terms of the elites, but for us to be there, having won the FA Cup and then win again, just pinch yourself stuff. And then obviously there was all the stuff for the Europa League being booted out of that, going into the conference. Around Christmas time, it very much came, the wheels were coming off.

1:25:18You know, Mark Gay went to Manchester City, Oliver Glasner came at a press conference, said he couldn't work under these conditions. It felt as though everything had fallen apart. And yet, credit to him and all the players, because as soon as the January window closed, we got back to basics. We made sure that we were safe in the Premier League. We never really looked like we were going to be relegated. And as soon as the knockout games kicked in, Fiorentina, I know that both Fiorentina and Shakhtar are not teams that have the European pedigree in 2026 that they did maybe 10 or 20 years ago. But for us, it's made in territory.

1:25:50You know, we're going into Europe. We've never been there before. Went to Florence, sorted it out there, went in front after 21 seconds against Shakhtar and Krakow. Took them, you know, comfortably in the second leg. And then to go into the final, I wouldn't say I necessarily expected to win because as much as you look at the budgets of the two sides and where Rayo Vallecano would come from, we were always going to be the favourites, but it's still Crystal Palace in a European final. And we were just comfortable. You know, over the course of the game, I think we deserved it. I mean, Pino's free kick, I'm sure many of you have seen it.

1:26:23I have no idea. It doesn't go in. And yeah, we saw it out and he's given me the best 18 months of my life. Are you worried you've lost your pep? Yes and no. I think, I mean, I've said this to a fair few people. We can't, as a fan base, expect to have this. It's not going to be the norm. It can't be. You know, you've already mentioned with Aston Villa, there are financial powers above us. What he has done, in many senses, is hamstring future managers because they can't get away with saying, we're Crystal Palace, you can't expect to win things because we know it's possible. So that sense before, five, ten years ago, of, well, we can't be in finals, we can't go and do this.

1:27:00We know that we can do it. It's just a case of dancing through raindrops. And hopefully, whoever comes in next has that same mentality because I think that's the key thing that's shifted over the last two years. Who do you want to come in? Initially, I wanted Andoni Arreola. And I honestly believe that if it weren't for Liverpool making a change, it would have been possible. I'm not saying it would have happened, but I think there was a chance. I think we've been speaking to him for a fair while and obviously Liverpool come in, it's a very different knock. Sorry for jumping in.

1:27:30I think for most people looking on the outside when it was Iriola's going to go to Crystal Palace, no disrespect, but it felt like... Sideways. I didn't quite understand it. I mean, listen, you know probably the insides of the club. What were they thinking? What was Iriola's thinking? As far as I know, and this isn't me saying categorically, but I believe, because obviously Oliver Glasner told the club in October that he was going to be leaving. We'd been speaking to him informally from November onwards. His North Star prior to the Liverpool interest was always the Bilbao job. And I think Terzic has gone in there and signed a two-year deal.

1:28:05And he probably saw Crystal Palace as this ideal sort of, not next rung up on the ladder, but an opportunity for him to potentially go into European football again. I think the key factor was that we were going to give him complete control of the transfer market in terms of who came in and who didn't. And if you look at Bournemouth, with Semenyo, with Kerkhez, with all sorts of players, they are hamstrung financially. So I think he saw potentially an opportunity to have two years where he can bring players in that he wants, let the players that he's not that bothered about leave, and sort of continue to boost his reputation.

1:28:33But isn't that why Glasner left? Or he had problems with the board? Glasner's situation is very murky. You know, he signed this two-and-a-bit-year deal, made it very clear to the board that he wasn't going to be sticking around. No one really knows why. I don't think it's necessarily a falling out because if you listen to the owners, there's no sort of crossed words. But I think it was just a marriage of convenience that ran its course. But it's about getting the next one right now. Right. Dan. Dan the man. I was at the last game of the season, the 3-0 win against Leeds, but I think even in the game, obviously you were there, there was no real feeling that I...

1:29:14I didn't get the feeling that going into the game that West Ham supporters were too hopeful that it was going to turn around on that day. You're obviously devastated, but who's the person you think of, almost like the reason why? Who do you put the blame at their door? Well, in a bigger scale, David Sullivan. I've got blame for Nuno, I've got blame for players, but it comes down to Sullivan. and the way that he scammed the fans, really. And we have been scammed. You know, you come in, purport yourself to be a West Ham fan. You tell us, you know, we have to move. We have to move to London to compete with the Arsenals and the Chelseas and the Liverpools.

1:29:59We have to move to get Champions League football. The sight lines are going to be equal to Upton Park. Here's all these images. Look how brilliant it looks. And then we get there. And someone said it on my channel. he promised us Champions League and delivered the championship so we give up so much and years of bad recruitment bad decision making lack of ambition when it comes to managers has got us where we deserve to be right now not the fans but the club I don't think I've ever heard a fan base so unhappy with the stadium move as West Ham supporters it doesn't feel like anybody's happy with that or can see any uplift in any way.

1:30:40I mean, you get 60 ,000 there. What was West Ham, 40? It was about 35. 35, 40. Is there no way you could see what they were thinking in terms of what I'm, you know, more fans, more money into the club, supposedly buy better players, we have more revenue? Yeah, well, I just, I look at it and I think, because I've seen a lot of people in media say, you know, they had to take the deal. It was too good to turn down. Tottenham had the chance to take that stadium. What did they say? They said, we'll have it, but we're going to knock it down. It's not a football stadium. They saw the problems with it.

1:31:13They didn't take this beautiful deal. And yeah, you look at revenues and things like that. But when you're not run well as a football club, we've got a 60 ,000-seater stadium and we're relegated. Bournemouth have an 11 ,000-seater stadium. Now they're playing in Europe. Palace have 25 ,000-seater stadium. They've not only equaled what we've achieved since we've moved it, They've surpassed what we've achieved since we've moved. Sunderland, we're in League One. Now they're playing European football. You know, all these clubs did not have to move. It comes from the top. It comes from the structure and how you run as a football club.

1:31:47And we are still run like a 90s football club. Like we're in the 80s and 90s. We're like 30 years behind every other club and how they do things. You know, when you've got an owner getting on the phone to, you know, agents and clubs going, yeah, fancy that player. Oh, you know, give me a discount on that. what modern Premier League club runs like that our training facilities I've just seen Huller getting a brand new state of the art training facilities Antonio he came up in a podcast and said how when they was at Chadwick Leaf and they was moving to our current one they was promised it was going to be this new state of the art facility and they said it was just port-a-cabins so everything we do sorry do the fans take any blame what you say from West Ham just go back like obviously when David Moyes was there they had a European trophy similar to you're talking about Palace but the fans were on his case weren't they saying no we want a different style of football do you think when you got relegated had Moyes stayed for example or was that the owners made that decision or was the fans part of that decision would you say well the fans yeah there was definitely unrest that season because you know we was playing the worst football ever right and this wasn't the football that Moyes played when he first came by the way he started playing the counter attacking football and it worked and we liked it but teams figured us out and it stopped working because Keats team starts paying us more respect so he changed the style and it didn't work but you know we did we worked in Europe but not in the league and we went back so you know we're conceding like six nils five nils of course we're going to be unhappy but that's not why he left he left because they want they brought in a director of football and they said to David Moyes right here's a new contract that we're going to take away the manager contract it's a head coach contract we need to be a head coach Moyes old school did not want to be a head coach so he left and when it when it comes down to Moyes and I always get this a lot you know if you had Moyes if you have Moyes all these other clubs like I said the Bournemouth don't have Moyes Palace don't have Moyes how do all these other clubs do it it's what you do after Moyes you know it's look we just talked about Hodgson steady stable manager you know you don't think how can you get rid of Hodgson no they get rid of Hodgson you bring in someone like Glasner You know, Emery.

1:33:57Like, why could we never go and get these managers? They slapped down, how much was it? Was it 8 million or something? 8 million, we'll have Emery. No, we go, who's free? Lopetegui, he's out of a job. He managed in the Premier League. Graham Potter, yeah, he's free. He managed in the Premier League. Nuno, we've just slapped him 3-0. And yeah, he's managed in the Premier League and he's just been sacked. Let's have him. Like, there's never any ambition. Are you happy Nuno stayed and you think he's probably the right man to bring you straight back up from the Championship? he's won the championship hasn't he before with the world yeah I think puff of breath there yeah give me a second here yeah my initial my initial feeling was that this season I wanted Nuno gone I think he's bottled it this season he's made a horrific job of keeping us up when he took us over we were two points from safety and at the end of the season we're two points from safety when look we did well to claw back and we went on a little run but there's so many games where he's just thrown it away we were It was 2-0 up at Bournemouth, right?

1:34:54Take off striker, bring a defender, we go to draw the game. You know, the Newcastle result was where I really turned on Nuno, the Newcastle game, because you go into that game, a game we have to win, and you play a back five, a formation that we have never won in this season, and Newcastle rarely lose against. And you just think, why are you changing it? Like, that run we had is when you started playing in that sort of two up top system and you just change it for no reason and he just goes negative and in 20 minutes in, he's like, oh, I've made a huge mistake. I've got to change it up and go back to what worked and it's too late.

1:35:33But I feel like ultimately it's probably the right decision to stick with him because we would have been on this looking for managers and it would have been like someone like Scott Parker who good track record of getting you out of the championship, not a good track record of keeping you in the Premier League. so the managers that we would have looked at Dyche I wouldn't have got rid of him before so at least now we can go and start focusing on recruitment because we're miles behind other championship clubs we've got to sell a load of players before we can think about bringing anyone in but you think how quickly it changed for Nuno the season before the Forest almost Champions League probably going for manager there and he's as I said he bottled that as well he bottled that spectacularly Nuno you know alright well listen we're going to finish there thanks guys and that is it for another great episode of The Fan Debate brought to you by Skybit.

1:36:21Catch you next time.

1:36:49Grainger knows when you're a procurement manager for an office park, you're not managing one building. You're managing all of them. And to stay ahead, you need to see through walls and around corners. Lights about to fail, filters ready to clog, HVAC on its last leg. If you wait until something breaks, you're already behind. Count on Grainger for quality products, easy reordering, and 24-7 support. Call 1-800-GRAINGER, click grainger.com, or just stop by. Grainger, for the ones who get it done. This is Robert Mace from The Athletic Football Show. Men's Warehouse is here to make you look and feel good no matter the occasion.

1:37:25From formal to casual, dressed down to dressed up, their in-store experts will help you find the right outfit for that thing you got on the calendar. And their on-site tailors will make sure the fit is perfect for your body. Suits, tuxes, sport coats, jeans, shorts, chinos, t-shirts, polos, loafers, sneakers, sandals, underwear. Get ready to look and feel good for anything from head to toe by visiting Men's Warehouse today. Men's Warehouse. Love the way you look.

1:38:14as just an everyday object? Your entire perspective shifts the moment you experience a Kohler smart toilet. Design changes everything, transforming a basic routine into something extraordinary. With standout aesthetics and intuitive controls, these are functional works of art, stunning design that never sacrifices performance. Enjoy customizable features for elevated comfort and convenience. It's more than a fixture. It's a cleaner routine and a more refined space. Experience the difference of Kohler Smart Toilets. Find more at Kohler.com.