Benching Bellingham, Thomas Tuchel & England Argentina Rivalry! | The Overlap Fan Debate

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2:17who believes England are going to win the World Cup I'll get it for the end I love that it's our first World Cup in 28 years from Scotland so huge buzz around the country when we qualified we know FIFA and we thought it would get better when Blasso went to Fields it's actually got worse if you're giving money to Country X to build their stadium well the delegate from Country X is going to keep voting for Infantino I personally was really looking forward to this World Cup, but then all of a sudden, everything around it has just completely turned it on its head. What's your fierce reaction when you see the squad?

2:49It's either going to end with group exit or going all the way and not much in between. A little bit dubious about Tuchel when he came in, just for various reasons. We talked about how honest he is in press conferences. I love it, but it makes me wince a little bit. That directness, that candidness he has. Precisely because he's German. He doesn't care. And you're talking about Jude Bellingham. If the first game of the World Cup goes, Jude, you're sitting on the bench next to me. That'll be a big moment. I mean, that sounds harmony out of wonder on day one, isn't it? Because everyone talks about Scotland, the old enemy, and...

3:15For me, Argentina. Argentina-England games are incredible. It'll be interesting to see how your team do. My team? England. My team's Liverpool.

3:30Hello and welcome back to the FanDB, brought to you by Skybet. Today's episode is a World Cup special as we look ahead to the tournament in the summer. So, Shea's back with me once again. A big hello to our supporters and a warm welcome to a journalist, author and co-host of the Football History Podcast. It was what it was, Jonathan Wilson and the England pod host, Ali Maxwell. So, thanks for joining us, guys, and welcome to everyone. Shea, I'm going to start with you. What do you love most about the World Cup? Playing in it was good Supporting it growing up was good as well Under the Jack Charlton era From an Irish point of view But playing was the pinnacle for my career To play in Japan and Korea in 2002 But I think now that the Premier League's Parked on one side The Champions League final's gone I think now I think the focus Quickly turns to the World Cup Obviously Ireland are not there But you're looking at the favourites The best teams And the best players Are obviously going to be performing In the World Cup In a couple of weeks And it's the biggest tournament In the world football isn't it that's what it is I mean it's a different format this year with more teams and stuff and things like that we'll probably talk about in a bit but there's nothing taken away from it it's the greatest show on earth isn't it it's a brilliant tournament and it'll be interesting to see who wins it of course Argentina the holders you know Messi got his final wish in the last final can Ronaldo maybe do it this year I'm not so sure but it'll be interesting to see how your team do as well the next my team England my team's Liverpool you just mentioned Messi in the World Cup my next question is what's your favourite World Cup memory but the fact you've just mentioned Messi I'm actually going to choose that one as mine I just think it was fitting that a player of that stature finally won the World Cup for me so I think it's probably the greatest final I think probably in World Cup history I think it must be what's your favourite World Cup memory?

5:31might even go as far back as 94 actually back in America where the World Cup was this year when Ray Houghton scored against Italy. 1-0 to beat Italy. I mean, the whole nation went absolutely bananas, of course. I think it might have been Giant Stadium actually that that game was in. But again, you know, it's memories that young English fans or whatever or Spanish fans or whatever it is will make this year. You know, you think your first goal, your first game or whatever, your first memory as a fan. But that was a special day for a lot of Irish fans, of course. Jonathan, you have released a new book, The Power and the Glory, a new history of the World Cup.

6:07Can you tell us about it? Yeah. I mean, the World Cup, I think, is my favourite thing in football and therefore my favourite thing in the world. So I've been obsessed by the World Cup since I was five, the start of the 82 World Cup, which is my first one. And I remember pouring through the ladybird history of the 82 World Cup and because I was a weird and precocious five-year-old, which will shock you, I knew the score of every final, I knew the scorers, I could have told you the capital city, the flag, the currency of every country in that first World Cup. And I've written 12 previous football histories, so I thought it's time to do the thing I actually really want to do and to try and set the World Cup in its sort of cultural, political context.

6:55You know the 82 World Cup, just because you said that was your first World Cup, it just comes to me, did that have two group stages, that World Cup? Yeah, it was six groups of four feeding into four groups of three. Wow. And they got rid of that because the problem was that the four groups of three, the winners of each group went through, but if a team won the first two games, that third game was completely pointless. But that was where you got that brilliant group with Brazil, Argentina, Italy in the famous Italy 3-Brazil 2 game. Yeah, yeah. So it produced some great football, but also some football that didn't matter at all.

7:27Tell us about what's changed in the USA since the World Cup was last there in 1994. And I must say, this is not me being a little Englander. I mean, how have America had two World Cups? And England have had one. Because it's a home of capitalism and they've got money and they see it as a massive market. But I mean, it's a fair question. I mean, the biggest thing that's changed is MLS. so the third attempt really to launch a professional league in the US starts in 96 I think it's pretty established as a league I think it's probably 12th, 13th best league in the world depending on exactly how you judge that I think the US probably is a bit better now but it probably hasn't kicked on quite as much as they'd like if you look at who are the best American players you think 10-15 years ago you had people like Clint Dempsey, Landon Donovan I'm not sure you'd expect maybe 5 or 6 to be playing in the Premier League now know uh christian pulisic's probably the the highest profile so i i i suspect it hasn't quite developed as it liked and i was speaking to moutinho pochettino last year and he was saying one of the problems is um it's not really a culture of grass roots football and that still hasn't hasn't started it hasn't you know it hasn't begun so if you want to play basically your parents have to have to pay for you to join a club and that a means a lot of people who are playing uh tend to middle class there's a whole load of people just can't afford it but b if you've paid i don't know how much it costs five hundred dollars a thousand dollars a year for your kid to be playing there at the end of the year you go to the coaches and say well how have you made my kid better and positional awareness or first touch or technical ability it's very hard to measure that what you can measure is sprinting speed what weights of a lifting so the focus is very much on the physical side of the game and i think you look at somebody like christian pulisic you can You see, physically, he's great.

9:20Is he good at running in straight lines? Maybe not. You said you've covered a lot of World Cups and you know everything about them. And every tournament, almost all of them, the conditions will play a factor in terms of, you know, at the end of a season, the heat. Is this going to be on a completely different level? Yeah. Probably what we've seen before? I think Qatar, one of the reasons football was so good was precisely because it was in the winter. I mean, 20, 25 degrees, it's fine. Whereas this, which could be talking 35 degrees, high humidity. I think also Qatar, the football was benefited because people who played in Europe are only halfway through the season and not knackered at the end of the season.

10:05So Anthony Barry, Thomas Tickle's assistant, he was talking about a heat-proof game model. He was a bit more evasive about what that meant. But I assume that means not pressing constantly for 90 minutes, pressing in short bursts, probably a lot of focus on set plays, trying to calm the game down. But yeah, teams clearly having to think about that.

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13:17Listen, we know FIFA and we thought it would get better when Blatter went. It feels like it's actually got worse. The situation with group stage tickets, you said you're all going over for the tournament. I mean, where is it at right now? I mean, this is something I've read in the press without probably looking into the absolute detail of it. I mean, are the stadiums half full of the England, you know, Club England or, you know, the supporters groups of Scotland as well? Have they got behind? Have they taken all their allocation up? It's a bit of a difficult one. I mean, with England, the most disappointing thing for me, OK, you go to World Cups to watch the game, but also you go with your mates.

13:58OK, so I go with quite a big group of people and they really look forward to every tournament. You know, Germany, you go out there, you get your city that you stay in, you get your train journeys. And it's part of the social as well as the football itself. I personally was really looking forward to this World Cup. I mean, Shade talks about, you know, 1994. I actually never went to the 94 World Cup. I went to 1990, but because England went in 94, I didn't go. You know what I'm saying? So stupid because my family lived out in America, my brother was out there. They're like, come over. I was like, no, no, no, England are not there.

14:26I'm not going to go. After it didn't happen, I was gutted. And I just thought, I can't wait till the World Cup's back in America again. You know, so now it's come around. I thought, OK, the World Cup's back in America again. OK, the reasons behind it and all that. That's a different story. But I was really excited. But then all of a sudden, everything around it has just completely turned it on its head. So a lot of my mates who are all excited about it, they've all planned to do the trip one by one. They've all dropped out. So what you've got is you've got big groups of people that were going to go.

14:51And they're like, no, we're not going. These are people that go everywhere. They've gone to all the qualifying matches for England. They've gone everywhere. They've been to every single tournament. Top cappers, people that get tickets easily. And they're not going. or what they're doing, they're saying, tell you what, I'll buy a ticket for the final. If we get there, OK, so I could tick it off. Or I'll go to the first knockout game or the second knockout game. A lot of people are actually going to, fingers crossed, if we do finish top, then the 16th game will be in Mexico. So everyone, that's the hottest ticket at the moment now.

15:21Everyone's going... Is that because everything's a lot cheaper in Mexico? Is that basically it? That is the reason why, but also because it's Mexico. And a lot of people say, we've never been to Mexico. You know, to see England play in Mexico, which is a proper footballing country. I mean, I was in Mexico last year and all the Mexicans that I met out there, you know, Darren and all that, they're going, make sure you come over to Mexico, Bill. You know, when you come out there, I'm like, no, no, I'm not going to come to Mexico. We've got to go where England are and then we'll, you know, travel around.

15:47After a week in Mexico, I'm like, I'm coming out to Mexico. So we're actually flying out to Mexico and we're actually flying in and out of Mexico because it's cheaper. It's much more of a footballing country. But at the moment now, when you ask about the tickets, a lot of the tickets of the games didn't sell out for the allocation as much as actually it's on the edge so I think they've sold out and there's a bit of a wait list but in general the more important thing is there's a lot of people that would go that are just not going because of everything around the World Cup it's just as they said it spoils it for them Dan Martin similar thoughts with Scotland?

16:19No we wouldn't hedge our bets on being past the knockout stage unfortunately so I think everyone we know it's our first World Cup 28 years from Scotland so it was a huge huge buzz around the country when we qualified everyone we knew that's wanting to travel out and be there the allocation was tiny I think for all the nations I think it worked out something like 8 % the Tartan army's got a huge following it's oversubscribed you can't join the official Tartan army so it's sell on tickets at the moment some people which are coming down aren't they they are coming down a bit give us an idea I think at the start the chat was if you were going to buy like one on the resale you're maybe looking at$800 just for like a lowest category ticket but that's like when we've got mates that have just grabbed ones for maybe about$300,$400 which is still really really high but I think we've got a very different situation we've not been to World Cup in 28 years so you know Well the guy you're talking about who probably I would say sets the prices here in Fantano the head of FIFA says the 2026 World Cup will be the biggest most inclusive and greatest tournament of all time.

17:28Thoughts on that, Ali? Well, it's the biggest, literally. I'm not sure about the other two. It's so tough to hear Billy talking about top cappers, people for whom following England is like pretty much everything because it takes a lot of time, effort, money, not being able to go because of this. We're very fortunate, the England pod, we're going out for the group stages. We've managed to get a sponsorship to cover the trip. otherwise there's no way we'd be going either you know i think there's obviously so many different factors and you can travel cheaply or not so cheaply but just for those watching who are just wanting a number maybe because that's what never quite gets said is i would say for a group of three as we are uh to go out for the group stages and do it the way that we want to do it probably between 15 and 20 grand for a group of three so if you want to do the whole seven weeks and you want to stay out and you can take the time off work and family commitments you know we're talking double that 30 40 grand probably you know when we talk about we talk about this a lot in in club football about you know ticket prices and and what are the and the clubs use the argument of oh we need to bring this revenue in because we need to pay the players wages and what what is it about how can fifa justify because i know in the last tournament this there has been a huge jump in terms of ticket prices from you know four years ago what how do they justify what is the argument for what is the money for for it so if you're talking about the ticket price being i think you just mentioned 800 quid 600 quid let's say it was 100 where does that money go for fifa does that go to fifa yeah so i mean look i certainly don't want to speak for fifa but i think what they would say is and i don't know the extent to which this actually happens but they do an awful lot of work globally right um whether it's good work or not good work they are they're certainly They purport to invest a lot of money into the game globally and sometimes in much smaller nations who won't be in the World Cup.

19:24And I guess so they see this as their biggest revenue stream, right? It's their big tournament. It is their biggest way of making money. So I guess for them they would say, well, the more money we can make from this tournament, the more we can plough into good causes across the world. Whether you believe that they do that. That's absolutely the line they would give you. So in a four-year cycle, so if you look at the last four-year cycle, them, including the 2022 World Cup, 83 % of FIFA's revenue came from that World Cup. So I suspect that proportion will be even higher this time, although they've got the club World Cup expanded now, which should bring in more money.

19:58So yeah, the nice idea is this money is redistributed around the world. You're building, I don't know, Benin needs a stadium. Brilliant. There's Zayn with Benin. You need to go and train up referees in Ecuador or whatever. But actually, we all know that FIFA has become this vehicle to get Gianni Infantino re-elected. So a lot of these handouts from FIFA, the gold project, for instance, I think if you actually audited that properly, you'd see the money doesn't necessarily go where it's meant to go. But if you're giving money to Country X to build their stadium, well, the delegate from Country X is going to keep voting for Infantino.

20:36They have all these FIFA committees, which they've proliferated. They've got bigger and bigger. If you're an FA delegate that's sitting on one of committees, you get a stipend and you get your expenses, which are very, very generous. Again, you're not going to rock the boat, you're not going to challenge Infantino. So all of this, while there may well be some good stuff going on, and there are very good people at FIFA, it also helps Infantino get... The thing I was just going to say is that the fans will get punished at the end of the day. Yeah, completely. Because FIFA will get all the TV rights money and all the different sponsorships.

21:08And this has changed since 2007. Sorry, if the stadium's half empty, it's not the same product, is it? If the atmosphere isn't so good, it's not the same. and it's you guys who bring that. But the stadiums are not going to be empty and that's part of the problem as well because it's in America. Okay, I mean, I'm a Brevard fan and I went out two years ago to the Summer Series out there and obviously Premier League has started to become big within almost like a little clique. So it's almost like a sort of kind of credible or trendy thing in America. So the fans are in it. They're properly in it.

21:36I mean, I've gone watch MLS quite a lot out there as well. So I know quite a lot about American fan culture but they've also got this culture where they are happy to pay whatever for tickets. So we get, again, as Brentford, we get a lot of Americans that come over and they come up, they ring us up and say, oh, can you get some tickets? You say, okay,£30. They're like,£30? I'm like, is that all? Yeah, that's what it is in this country. Okay, 20 is plenty, 30 pounds. They're like, oh my God, that's how much we pay for, you know, we pay less than that in our fees in America. Then we went out to this cup over there and tickets were like two, three.

22:05We had people that paid$500,$600 to go and see a friendly match and they don't think too much about it. So what you've got now as a scenario is FIFA's gone in, they've gone, okay, it's in America now. America will play it. So what we'll do, instead of last year at the Euros two years ago, I mean, no, it's not FIFA, tickets were 60 quid, 80 quid. The cheapest ticket is going to be 200 quid, right, just for a group game. And then after that, we'll step it up. Then we'll get 350 quid. And then the final is going to be 3 ,200 for the cheapest ticket. And it's ridiculous. So all of a sudden, what you've got is then the resale market comes in.

22:38Then the resale market, people will go, well, the cheapest ticket is 200 quid. So if somebody wants to come in, he's going to actually pay at least 400, if not 600. The Americans come in and say, well, we'll pay 1 ,000, 1 ,200. Final tickets are on there for sort of 5 ,000, 8 ,000, 10 ,000 pounds. It's got ridiculous. And the most disgusting thing about it is that FIFA, instead of like, you know, you've got normally people go to StubHub to buy tickets. But they said, we're going to control the resale of tickets ourselves. So we'll make our own StubHub. And what we'll do is that if you want to resell a ticket, so if you bought a ticket for a game, you buy it for 200 quid then you could put it on the FIFA StubHub for a grand if you wanted to no problem, they said that's fine is a disgrace that fellow I can't stand him and they take 30 % 15 % on either side so you don't think he's got a car you can never get rid of him the only way you could get rid of him would be a much stronger UEFA under a different president than Cheferin we don't have that at the moment and UEFA has the power, it has the wealth you could for instance if you wanted to challenge FIFA, you could say, right, the Nations League is a pre-existing tournament, let's invite Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay, maybe Japan, South Korea, maybe the big TV markets, US, Mexico, and then you really do have a threat to FIFA because you can't have a World Cup without those nations.

23:56But at the minute, there's no prospect of that happening. Is there any incentive for them to join that? Like, from a financial perspective, if UEFA tried to do that, what's the financial incentive? Like, you already said, the stipend and all the expenses. if you've got the delegates that are in his pocket they're not going to... No, you're quite right and that's one of the reasons why it won't happen it would only be if you've got say a very enlightened leader in the Argentinian game or the Brazilian game or if this new Nations League Plus could generate enough revenue that you could challenge...

24:28Sorry, just the other quick thing is the plates, the hotels, the trains they've all got food on the roof The dynamic pricing theoretically means I think this is why you're right the saves will be pretty well filled. Dynamic pricing means that the prices can come down. So I've got mates who live in the US who are saying, well, I'm not buying a ticket until the week before. And I think they're not bothered particularly about what game they're going to, but I've got a mate who lives in Atlanta. They've got Uzbekistan v. D. R. Congo, so not necessarily the most attractive game. There's no huge Uzbek or Congolese diaspora in America to fill the stadium.

25:03So those prices will drop to$20,$15,$10. So if you live in Georgia, brilliant. Wait until the week before, then buy the ticket. But you can't do that if you live in Uzbekistan or live in DR Congo or live anywhere and you want to go to that game. You've got to get your flights. You've got to get your hotels. You've got to start your visa. And the other thing, we're saying this as people from Britain who are relatively, in world terms, wealthy. Say you're a Bosnian fan. So Bosnia, their second World Cup, their first game's against Canada. Had a look at that last week. The price for that is$2 ,250.

25:41Now, the average monthly wage in Bosnia is$800. So you're saying to the average Bosnian, if you want to go to this game, only your fourth ever game at the World Cup, even before you pay the flights, the hotels and everything, it's going to cost you three months' wages to go and watch a game against Canada. It's a disgrace, isn't it?

26:06I just want to bring Martin and Daniel in. We brought them in initially on ticket prices. We're going to try and get off that and try and bring a bit of positivity to this episode of the World Cup. So you're the brothers, members of the band. Scary Vo. Yep, it's got on, yeah. Have I got that right? So welcome to the show. And I'm just looking at, is that at the Ali McLeod? The 78, yes. Is that when you were going to win the World Cup? yeah he's too young to remember that but you've brought out a World Cup song for Scotland never stopped dreaming tell us about it yeah I think just like everyone else in Scotland when we finally did qualify after that time the euphoria took over and we thought it would be a great idea to write a song but so did every other Scottish band so there's plenty of songs going out up there but I think as a nation we're trying to keep as positive as we can about it there's a lot of stuff around it you know ticket prices and everything else but in terms of the nation going there for the first time it's been amazing for this generation I was pretty young when we were there last time in France 98 so so you're heading over to Boston but you're stuffing up in New York on the way so what's planned in Boston the Tartan army are there you're going to have a ball Boston and New York yeah we've managed to actually a couple of shows from the route there as well and we'll probably do like the parade before the game and go to the game and stuff so it's going to be incredible it's been a long time coming to qualify for the World Cup many fans are they expecting Scottish fans forget the ticket situation but just in general to go there it's a rough number there'll be tens of thousands we're going to base ourselves on Providence before the second game we're going to stay out and the record there's going to be about 10 ,000 Tartan Army there so we've already got a Providence Tartan Army and there's a march organised for that as well so we're very lucky we were at the Euros a couple of years ago as well and had an amazing experience the main reason we're going over to Boston is it's a charity event for Street Soccer Scotland, the top that Martin's wearing.

28:01It's an amazing charity. And a family, the Yarrow Foundation, they have an event that they're doing in Boston to raise money for that charity as well. So we had a great night and they did the same thing in Munich. Actually, a mate Robbie Keane was there. He managed to gate crash. Oh yeah, Robbie. The party. Sneaked in. He had a good time with the Scots. So he was there and we had probably the best day of life. So we ended up having lunch with Sir Alex Fergus the day after before we went to the game and got hammered by German. dropped back down to earth very quickly okay well this time what's a successful tournament for Scotland?

28:35I think it's performing well and you know even if we get a result along the way it's like I think they have to get out the great people beforehand at the Euros but getting to the a major tournament again was a big thing but we've done that twice now I think the next step with the Scotland team is to come out this group and particularly with the players that we have just now in McGinn and McTominay are playing right at the top the game against Denmark was special wasn't it the goals in that game I mean McTominay's over a kick was a stuff and Kenny McLean just capped it off yeah it was unbelievable wasn't it incredible I think it's got to be not just being there and the Scots being there for a good time it's got to be this time that's the other thing as well is the format of the World Cup now isn't it yeah got a great chance of getting out of the group because of more teams you guys mentioned before Scotland never got out of the group have they no so it's a big chance isn't it yeah good opportunity and the manager who will have masterminded that if that's the case of Steve Clarke just signed a new contract please with that yeah I think he deserves it I think a lot of us felt it was quite funny timing and would have maybe waited until after the World Cup to do that as well especially the way the last two majors have went to the Euros so maybe the timing is off but they're obviously showing a commitment to him if you're out of progress get through the group have a good time in the knockout stages who do you think is your key player?

29:55I think probably McTominay obviously he's one of the best players probably global at the moment but I think there's a few guys that probably Lauren Shankland get two goals at the weekend get great finishers I think probably guys like that I think there's a huge emphasis that he puts on the squad and making it almost like a club team atmosphere there's been a lot said about them not taking McBurnie even though his contribution for Hull and other players not getting selected but Steve Clarke has always been very much a club type mentality so they're a really tight group but obviously McTominay's like a global star now I was gutted for Gilmore were you?

30:30I was going to say if you'd asked me the same question I would have said Gilmore's probably the most important player just in terms of retaining the ball and calmness we need that at times when we've not got a lot of the ball we need somebody that'll keep it I just think anyone now playing those little friendlies before the tournament from any country anyone gets it in do you think every four years I was gutted when I saw that for Billy Gilmore Jonathan your superb World Cup memory So we're going to ask you, give us your favourite Scotland World Cup story. I think if we go back to the first World Cup Scotland played in, 1954, which I'm afraid very much sets the template.

31:08So to start with, Rangers say, hang on, do we actually have to give our players? We pay their wages. So they get a ruling on this. And the ruling is, if you've already got a game arranged, then no, you don't. So Rangers' response is to arrange a tour of Canada so they don't have to release any players for the World Cup. Wow. So they then go to the World Cup. Squads are 22 in those days. They take 13, two of them are goalkeepers. They take a massive selection committee. Andy Beatty, the manager, resigns after the first game where they lose 1-0 to Austria, which actually is a good Austria side they get in the semifinals.

31:44And so the selection committee, I mean, there's not much selecting to be done when you've only got 11 outfield players. They then lose 7-0 to Uruguay. But I can just give you a quote from Tam Reid, who's the head of the selection committee. This is before the first game against Austria. Our forwards have been instructed to go all out for an early goal, knowing from experience that the Continentals don't like to have to fight back. Special emphasis has been laid on the necessity of hard but always fair tackling. This should knock some of the funny notions out of the heads of the Austrians. so that's the level of research and insight that Scotland used to put into these brilliant right let's turn our attention to the three lions Dan what's your first reaction when you've seen the squad it's interesting shall we say I mean there's been a lot of talk hasn't it about the selection obviously as a Palace fan seeing Adam Walton not go I can't get my head around it obviously he's such a fantastic talent and I mean even Morgan Gibbs-White not being involved I can't really understand personally but at the same time you know Thomas Fuchel has often been spoken about as somebody who is not there to sort of play to the whims of all England fans want he's there to win us a tournament and I suppose the proof of the pudding will very much be in eating because if you get to the knockout rounds and you start getting through these games and you perform in a way similar to what the lads were saying about Scotland as a club side you don't necessarily need the best players in terms of their club form and the teams they play for if they're bonded as a group and they end up getting to the final and winning it then everyone's going to look wiser after the event but as of right now I would suggest it's either going to end with a group exit or going all the way and not much in between.

33:31Billy when you follow on from that when you saw the squad yeah do you look at that squad and what you think that the team took a pick and I think that's a team that can win or a squad that can win the World Cup. I thought, tell you something, I thought it's a squad that's going to do OK. And again, not rose-tinted glasses, but I was a little bit dubious about Tuchel when he came in, just for various reasons. And I'm normally 100 % behind every manager, Sven, you know, even Fabio. I was 100 % behind them all, you know, even Roy Hodgson, you know what I'm saying. I'm not knocking Roy, but when you look back at all these scenarios, you think, Roy Hodgson, England, you know, he's taken us to Rio.

34:07No, he's not at all. He's taken us home. But when Tuchel came in, I was a little bit guarding. And I remember going to Barcelona for the game out there against Andorra. And I was a little bit like, show me, show me. And we ground through that game and we managed just about to get a result. And I was like, I'm not quite sure about this. And also, I mean, I was very much a Southgate person, not necessarily because of what he did tactically, but what he did in the background, you know, stuff like that as well. So now I have to admit, as he's come through the group stages and what he's done in the group stages, I've had to just take a step back and think, actually, I think the guy's got an idea of what he wants to do.

34:45And I think the squad that he's chosen and the reasons behind it, like, you know, I see Dan Byrne, I'm like, I'm not quite sure, why Dan Byrne? You know what I'm saying? I'm looking at Jed Spence, I'm like, I'm not sure about Jed Spence. But then when he's given his reasons behind why he's done it, I've got to step back and say, look, this guy sees them all the time and he knows what he's doing. And I think that, and the most surprising one for me, being a Brentford fan again, Ivan Toney. Brilliant striker. When he was playing for us, I thought he should be all over England. Went to the Euros, got a little bit of a chance.

35:12I didn't think Gareth gave him enough of a chance because I know what he could do. But then he's brought him in. After scoring goals for the South, he's not even seen him play. You know what I'm saying? He sent Justin Cochran out to go and see him. But I think it's a brilliant move because he is a brilliant striker, a great person. And just little moves like that, I think will give us the edge because everyone's got to go, who's Ivan Toney? You've got no idea how to play against him. Well, you've got a lot of experience with World Cups and you were in St Etienne. Oh, yeah. For a certain goal back in 1998.

35:38Tell us about it. God, blimey. Michael Owen. You know what I'm saying? So I'd gone to that game and I went with my mate Leeds, man. It's surprising who he supports, actually. And we got another ticket for somebody. So I ended up sitting in the sidestand. So I was sitting there in the sidestand, all the England fans behind the goal. And I've got to say, this is still one of the most exciting games I've ever been to. It was like a tinderbox atmosphere inside that stadium. And then I just remember Michael Owen, he picking up the ball, running the score, you know, went past us, scored, and he put the ball in the back of the net.

36:11And literally, it went off. And I just went so mad. I remember there's this Coca-Cola seller. I just ran up the stairs, hugged this Coca-Cola seller. He just looked at me, just took him above me. It's like that, sort of running up and down. It was an unbelievable feeling. I mean, that whole game, you know, the behind it, you know, the Beckham kick getting sent off, the goal that was disallowed, you know, the penalties up. But it was just, honestly, it was an unbelievable game. And for me, that's actually, that had made Argentina, because everyone talks about Scotland, the old enemy, and all this.

36:41For me, Argentina. Argentina-England games are incredible. They are. The atmosphere, the Argentinians, they don't, there's a little bit of, you know, a little bit of needle between, you know what I'm saying? So you get that little edge on the pitch and off the pitch. Japan 2002, when we played Argentina, and when we got that penalty for 18 minutes we were hanging on. Again, one of the best games I've ever been to in my life. And the party afterwards in Sapporo, which went on all night, like literally in all the bars, all the England fans and the Japanese, just unbelievable. But that game Michael Owen scored, I mean, that goal, unbelievable.

37:14After that, unfortunately, you know, it didn't quite go to plan. Well, we'll see what happens in the summer. Ali, I want to ask you a similar question. Obviously, when that squad come out, who were you disappointed? Who do you think deserved the call-up? Yeah, I mean, like Billy, we've been following Tuchel's England pretty closely and he pretty much laid it all out throughout from his very first press conference until the squad announcement. And more than any other England manager I can remember, he does just explain the reasons why he's done everything and he doesn't hold back and even can be quite jarring, can't it?

37:48He's very honest about why he didn't take Palmer and Foden. I think Foden, he said, I don't know what position he placed for us and that's jarring, but I like his honesty. so I wouldn't say any of the squad announcement actually shocked us other than the Tony inclusion because this England team and it's always worth making this point it's not been put together now for the World Cup it started back in March 2025 and so it was actually the camps in September October November that were the most important for building the team it doesn't start now it started then so the main guys that I think were the the headlines not being included Gibbs White for his fantastic club form but wasn't involved in any of the qualifying.

38:27Foden and Palmer for different reasons. I think people have sort of just about understood why they didn't go. They've got so much competition in their positions and if you watch Tuchel's England and you see how Rodgers played for example it's hard to argue that he would be someone to play in that number 10 role. Lewis Hall just because we've only got one left footed left back and that's a bit of a concern on that front. I agree with Dan. For me, it's the omission of Wharton that I find hardest to get my head around. A, because of the player that he is and the skill that he has that not many other players have with that snappy progressive passing and his vision.

39:02We can all see, because we've seen it dozens of times, games in which England are struggling against a set defence and that skill must be something that, you know, it's so important for that. But also just the fact that we've got But Anderson and Rice, we're all buzzing with those two. They've been brilliant. And Anderson's unlocked Rice to a degree. If Anderson was to get injured, I don't want Rice dropping deeper again because we've seen that enough and it's not getting the best out of him. I don't really want Henderson, therefore, starting in that role. And Manu's the other centre mid in the squad.

39:32That's not his best position, being that first one to pick it up off the defence as well. So for me, just not having Wharton when you've got 26 players in the squad feels very strange. What I was going to say about Trent. What about Trent? You never mentioned Trent. You talk about unlocking defences, and we're probably nearly all agreeing that maybe from a defensive side of you, he has his frailties, isn't he, Trent? Yeah. But if you're trying to unlock a low block, whatever it might be, in tight games, even Trent off the bench, his delivery and stuff. Very little. But you didn't mention him there, so I was just wondering.

40:03Well, I'm going off what we saw from what you're saying. He was never goal-wise. Exactly. You never had him involved in that. Tuchel just doesn't like him as a player. he just clearly do you think it's a fallout or do you think it's a tactical thing do you think it's a defensive thing he's playing for Real Madrid here he's playing for Real Madrid for sure well yeah but the way that Tuchel uses his full backs is you know they are much more about like but Spence was a surprise for me as well wasn't it yeah you know the team that's very good relegated like I think Spence is basically whether you agree if this is true or not but his sort of thing is being a lockdown defender right like incredibly quick good footwork and I basically think if we play against an Mbappe or someone that's where he might use Spence.

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42:32Go to Nutrafol.com, promo code BASEBALL, for$10 off your first month's subscription and free shipping. Find out why Nutrafol is the only hair growth supplement brand trusted by MLB at Nutrafol.com, spelled N-U-T-R-A-F-O-L.com, promo code BASEBALL. That's Nutrafol.com, promo code BASEBALL. When you look at the squad he's put energy and athleticism and harmony over talent there's no way when you talk about talent Harmony is a good word to use I think I think he sees certain players maybe Trent's one of them maybe Foden Palmer I don't know the Harry Maguire one but the fact he's going for Dan Baird I think most people in this room would probably say you'd say Harry Maguire is probably a better player than Dan Baird but I know he loves Dan Byrne in and around the squad.

43:30He can also play left-back, Dan, as well, can't he? Yeah, but what I'm saying, so just when you're listening to him and talking to him, obviously I know Anthony Barry a little bit through his scouser, but they put great story in this togetherness and we're going to be as a group for hopefully six weeks, but this is bigger than just having a talent to play. We can't have anybody who brings the group down in any way or a negativity or they're not happy they're not playing or they're throwing their arms about this is about we're going to be a team and he's not daft Tuchel he obviously knows in Ford and Palmer Trent Alexander probably three of the most technical players you could probably we've got right now but they're not in a squad and you think of something Anthony Barry mentioned I think Jonathan you mentioned before about how they're going to go about winning the World Cup now it won't be about like amazing football or pressing, but set pieces are going to play a big part in it as well.

44:30So maybe that's in their idea. Maybe also rotation. And the thing that I thought was interesting is when they pick the four wingers, I've got that right, Madowiecki, Saka, Anthony Gordon, Rashford. Normally when you're picking a squad, you'll think, okay, we'll have a quick one. And then we might have one, someone who gets between the lines. so you've almost got different types of players whereas they're actually no our wingers are just going to be fast we're not going to have a Foden or a Palmer who maybe gets in the pockets if Saka's not playing Maddowek is just going to do the same thing but it's about pace it's about energy it's about runners it's not sort of players getting between the lines and if you go back to the last tournament that was the criticism wasn't there of Gerrit Southgate there was almost too many of those players he was trying to fit them in wasn't he to try and get them in the team because it's about the fit with Kane I think Tuchel is obsessed with Harry Kane and understandably so.

45:22In that front line, it's all about the fit with Kane. And if he's dropping deep, which he does very naturally, occupying the centre-backs, how do you make the most of that where you need people penetrating in behind? What's your opinion on Kane? I mean, he's had an unbelievable scoring career in the last couple of years. But in the last majors and the Euros, obviously, it felt like you were carrying him for a long period. I think hopefully he's coming into it physically in much better shape. I mean, the confidence that he's playing with at the moment it's just ridiculous so I think I'm broadly in agreement with how Tuchel's trying to build the team tactically it'd be really interesting the number 10 role because I think Rodgers and Kane have started to develop a nice relationship throughout the qualifiers because Bellingham was absent he was injured so now that he's back and available it does feel like it's either Bellingham or Rodgers starting and most people would say Sorry just on that point do you think then you're talking about Harmony and the squad and you're talking about Jude Bellingham if he first game of the World Cup goes Jude you're sitting on the bench next to me and Rodgers is starting.

46:19I mean, that sounds a harmony out the window on day one, isn't it? Yeah, but I think Tuchel's strong enough. I think he's shown already with how he's dealt with Jude. He's left him out of a couple of squads. There's been things said. There's obviously a relationship to be worked on, I would say, from both parties there. But I don't see a situation unless Morgan Rodgers gets injured in the warm-up games where Jude Bellingham starts the first game. I think it's Morgan Rodgers. That's going to be a huge... I don't think many people have really cottoned on to that still in the wider media. the media are going to turn that into a massive thing and so Tuchel's ability to handle that we talked about how honest he is in press conferences I love it but it makes me wince a little bit after the Wales friendly at Wembley he basically moaned about the poor atmosphere and it felt like a shot at the fans but anyone who goes to England games at Wembley A, they know what to expect atmosphere wise and B, they know that all the factors that go into the poor atmosphere it is not the individual fans fault it's because of how difficult it is to get there how expensive so he's already said a few things that make me somewhat concerned about how he's going to cope with it um even though i am broadly optimistic i do like him i think sorry i i think that directness that candidness he has i think partly it's because precisely because he's german he doesn't care he doesn't care as much you know in he loves london he clearly has a really nice social life in london um but he's yeah he knows in five years ten years he's going to be back in germany it's It's not like Graham Taylor.

47:45Every time he goes on a Tesco, the bloke on a cheese counter. Why didn't you take Lineker off? Yeah. I think that should give him more clarity. Why didn't he send Koeman off? But you also look at, you know, back in, again, like 2006, you know, the team there that you played in and you look at the manager, you look at the set-up, you look at the team, look at how it was dealt with, look at the press, look at everything. Look how we've moved on to now, like, you know what I'm saying, 2018, 2022, where we are now, actually. it's completely different the mentality on that we had some great players in that day and we all thought you know I mean I went to all these World Cups I thought yeah we're going to win the World Cup but looking back at it I mean I look back at some of the videos I thought I know we're a bit unlucky there but we weren't going to win it I think we're much more set up now as a rounded outfit you know off the pitch and on the pitch and the balance of these players and you haven't got that kind of those selection problems that they just weren't dealt with or players that were kind of you know you know back then 2006 South Africa 2010 there's all sorts of stuff going on in the changing room they're the two World Cups I was involved in I can't say now when I look back at my career at the end of your career people say what are you proud of and a lot of people say I played in a couple of World Cups I don't say that about myself it's not so yes I played in two World Cups I don't think I enjoyed the experience I didn't love it I didn't come away thinking wow I was part of the World Cup and what you're saying there was a lot of negativity the team didn't do well the media side a bit of like you didn't come away the way the lads in probably 1990 they get to the semi-finals still remembered now what Gareth's done and I do have a little nagging fear I think Gareth Southgate's going to be a lot more appreciated in the next sort of 5 to 10 years because I was a massive Southgate fan in terms of what he did with England and people saying they underachieved and they should have done this with this team I'm a bit like I'm a little bit like this with this tournament where I think England could I think they'll find it tough if I'm being totally honest.

49:41I look at the squad that's picked and there's a lot of good players in there but I class a lot of them as good Premier League players. I don't look at all of them and think that's an international player there and maybe that's where we are with the squad at the moment. So I wouldn't say I'm the most optimistic right now. But I want to bring the guys in at the back there. What are you most looking forward to before you get into this World Cup? What is the thing you're looking at? I think the thing's just been back there. The Scottish fans been back amongst the World Cup we're obviously hoping the Irish were going to be there as well and it'd have been an even bigger party a weird one but as we were saying now I think that there is now an expectation to get out of the group and do well at it we don't want to just be there for the fun and the party which will be there for sure but I think with this group we've been together this Scotland team we've been together now for a good couple of years been at a couple of major tournaments had the experience so the expectation is there to get out the chances there the first game against Haiti which is probably the one I'm most worried about we're notoriously bad against any team we're expected to win against it'd probably been better but that's like a Cup Final Haiti isn't it the first game if you win that then you've got an unbelievable chance of getting through haven't you Brazil's the last game is that right Brazil's last game you don't want to come down for that that'll be typical Scotland we'll come down for the first game we'll probably leave it to have to beat Brazil to get through that's probably it's going to right a little vote who believes England are going to win the World Cup I'm going to have to put the end well Ian I love that yeah well done we've got another one at the back another one at the back listen it's about a little bit of luck and that's the thing you know that as well a little bit of luck there's penalties that don't go in a little bit of luck and once you get out the group stages and that's the most important thing too cool I remember going to Brazil again I remember going out there so happy four days later I was going home because Roy Hodgson wasn't sending us to Rio you know what I'm saying and I just said to myself tell you something I know I used to moan about England not being all sparkly in the group stages anymore.

51:38I literally do not care. I literally, you can go out there, put 11 men behind the ball, let's just get us out of them group stages, because once you've got the group stages, boom, you know, you've been bending them on, whatever like that. Is there any worry from an England point of view about when Germany come into, like Germany, England, say in a semi or a final with the manager and stuff? I just find it remarkable that the manager is German. No, not at all. He'll want to beat Germany. You think? He'll want to prove a point. he's like he didn't get to be the German manager so I'm going to be here I'm going to beat you I learned a lot about Tuchel from one of the podcasts that Jonathan did and Nagelsmann and Tuchel were like protégé and mentor is that right?

52:15Yes sort of yeah so that's another big narrative I think Tuchel would back himself in that one yeah will Scotland make the knockouts? oh yeah yes yeah we'll have that one right just before we finish we've got a fan debate community question to everybody. Sent in from Pat from Huddersfield. If Cristiano Ronaldo wins the World Cup, he will forever settle the Ronaldo versus Messi debate and go down as the greatest player in history. Do you agree? No. No. No, I don't agree. Do you think if he won the World Cup, would that put him... I don't think it makes him the greatest player in history, but do you think that would put him above Messi?

53:03No, not for me either. But in the framing of the question... Who's Pat? Honestly, I'll be asking... Do you think all jokes out on the Ronaldo thing? Because I've seen clips of him in recent weeks playing, obviously, in Saudi. He looks like he's a wee bit caught up with him, perhaps. They're more likely to win if he doesn't start. But Portuguese have got some great players. And then you're trying to build a team around this one player that maybe he's not at the level he was. They should be a great side. You look at the players they've got. You look at them four years ago. They finally leave Ronaldo out for their game in Switzerland and Goncalo Vamash scores a hat-trick.

53:32And yet still, the crowd... But do you think Ronaldo this summer will be an impact sub? Or do you actually think that Martini is going to hit the start of him? He'll start, and there won't be much impact there. He'll dump it about. No, Roberto Mano speaks so highly of him, doesn't he? I think it's such a... He's got no choice, I don't think. No, I agree. I just want to go through everyone then, and tell me who you think will win the World Cup. Argentina. France. Brazil. France. Spain. England. I'm going to go Brazil. I'm going to go France and before we go Jonathan I want to ask you lastly because you know more about World Cup history than anybody what do you class as the three biggest or iconic moments in World Cup history if you could give us a top three moments only moments goals I don't know okay so the five minutes when Maradona scores twice against England in 1986 in the quarter final okay is that going number one or three that's on the short list I think I mean Messi's performance in the final last time I mean I'm uneasy picking something as recent but it's so huge and then this against you I mean I want to choose something obscure but I think Pelé's passed to Carlos Alberto for the fourth goal against Italy in 1970 that would have been my three not Gordon Banks save, no?

55:01Maybe, but I just think they are... I'm looking for the goalkeeper. Yeah. Yeah, I think that, yeah, absolutely spot on. Thank you. Brilliant. OK, well that brings to an end another episode of The Fan Debate brought to you by Skybet.

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