Bergkamp: Arsenal’s Golden Era, Wenger Influence & Title Hopes | The Overlap Exclusive

0:28Thank you so much.

0:34He's got two minutes, it's not like him Oh, here we go, here we go, here we go Here we go, bam OK The first time I met him was at a petrol station Have you heard the story? I was at Clackett Lane Services and these big BMW 7 Series and it was on the wrong side of the pump and then I just remember coming in because I used to go down the M25 coming off the junction 6 catering and like he was he just came out came out of the fucking place it was just like there it's oh my god and then we said oh my god did you sign he said yeah I just signed and I said oh come on and that's where I first met him did you see someone come in there?

1:22yeah we're at the top of the stairs but he's talking to someone so I just thought I'd quickly get you your lemon water at. The goals, what you saw him score for Ajax, you know, it weren't just like tapping his stuff, he scored chips, he scored great goals, he scored all kind of goals, so you knew of his name, you knew, you saw him in his Cruyff boots and his tight pants, tight shorts and stuff. You know what I mean? So you knew what he was about and then obviously he went from there to Inter Milan, which is a massive move, so I was keeping an eye on him. I never ever thought in the whole world of football that I'd ever get to play with Dennis Bergkamp.

1:56This guy Yeah, yeah. White trainers. There was some guy, white trainers. Yeah, this guy coming down now, I've seen him come out and back in. Let me see. Yeah, I could see something. Yes. Is that him? That looks like him. That's him. Boom. And then you start to think, whoa, if we're making that kind of signing, and obviously David Platt came as well, a lot of experience, then they're serious because we were going through some fallow years at Arsenal and it just felt like we weren't ever going to be challenging for the league again. And then Dennis came and then you knew that there was a change.

2:30There's a switch because you don't buy a player of that stature, that quality to win cups. You're trying to win the league. We got Dennis Bergkamp. We got Dennis Bergkamp. He's an icon at our football club. When Dennis signed, everything changed. Even my attitude towards it changed. I said, well, we're serious now. We are going to try and win things. It was just like the first day of school where I just can't wait to see Dennis because if he was at school, he was the best player in the school. So the best player in the school is going to be playing in the same football team as me. I was so excited.

3:03It was just like crazy, crazy, crazy excitement.

3:13Sometimes he said to me, hit me, hit me before I came, hit me in the face. they're at a level that I don't think they can compete with the biggest teams in the world Arsene was of course the one who just let the players do their thing to their thing to come from Ajax to go into a intense environment like Inter what was that what was it like Dennis the danger is of course that people start to talk about the last few seasons the difficult period is yet to come

3:46Oh!

3:50Ian, my man. How are you, sir? Oh, it's good to see you. Thank you so much. You okay much, man? Yes, yes, I'm good. Take your coat. You're going to keep your coat on? You look for it. You know what, Dennis? I was watching because you were downstairs. I was watching you walking around. Yeah. We're stalking you. Well, normally someone should have been there. Someone should have been there. There's no one to meet. No one met you. You've got enough people, so... How are you, my friend? Yes, I'm good. You look well, bro. What, have you been playing golf? No, well, a little bit, yeah. Maybe last time we played golf.

4:23I played badly. You played badly, yeah. Yeah, but you never said... Was you talking about me afterwards, like when you was on a plane or something because I was so bad? I looked good. No, it... Because Mitch... It was an off day. I think it was an off day for you. No, it was my knee. My knee's done now, Dennis. So... You've got a new knee. I can play now. Yeah, I've got a new knee. I've got it like last year. I'm just in the last stretches of it now. Look, I'm back now. Well, it's not good yet then. You see what I mean? Because remember, the ankles fuse as well. You sit down too much, I think.

4:54Oh, sit down too much. You, you. Should be moving. Did you watch the game the other day? Yeah, yeah. Fucking hell. You were sometimes shown on television. Did you see this? Did you see? It doesn't help it. You know, the thing is, they showed Thierry. they were showing teary and I thought because I was with I was with Stacey and then I was looking I said look Stacey they're showing teary I didn't realise but then everybody started sending sending the fact that they were showing me but then I thought to myself okay don't do anything don't do anything that's going to give them that and then and then you were like this Man United made it free too I was like gee I was like this oh my gosh because once when that happens you know everything what you're thinking that comes negative oh my gosh people call us butlers are we going to do it?

5:40We're not playing with that free. We're not playing like we played at the start of the season with that intensity and that belief. Something's happened, Dennis. And this is what happens at this stage of the season. Of course, you do, yeah. So this is where you need to win those games, Dennis, so you can get the cushion for if you have these. That's the thing. That's exactly what I was thinking. Because come March, April, you get the quarterfinals, you get semifinals. I mean, you see the Carabao Cup now? Yes, the Carabao Cup. a lot of players played in that cup as well where normally you would have said well I'll just leave it second round third round just get out of that cup and that's it but you want to go on and on and on and then suddenly you're in a final you think okay you want to win that as well yeah you want to win that as well so you put your best players in but three or four days later you've got a Champions League quarter final or whatever it's going to be difficult just quickly before we go on to everything.

6:38When you're watching this team in this moment, Dennis, what's your feeling? Especially watching United obviously come back with Michael Carrick, new manager. They look good. Let's face it, they look good. But did you see the mistakes, Dennis? Some of the mistakes, is that pressure? Because we're talking about proper players up to this point, no problems, and we've had this situation three times now where people are saying oh, we're going to bottle it. Do you think those mistakes or something that's creeping in? I think it is a mindset, to be honest. And if it's pressure, I'm not sure. Just like, OK, we come to the stage of the season now where it's going to be difficult and hard and maybe you're a little bit more tensed in playing, whereas when you're free here, you can just play.

7:28And of course, you get a call against and maybe you make a mistake, but then you just go on. You have to still enjoy this moment, I feel. You see when you say that, Dennis, it's about when you're free here, right? So when you was younger, was you always free there? Yeah, always. How did that come about? I was never free there. I was always feeling like, oh my gosh. I don't know. It's just the love of football, I think. And just want to do things, you know, what you do in training as well. And I never thought of football bigger than the 11 players you were playing with, you know? What do you mean?

8:05Well, you just play the game. And if it's for 60 ,000 people and millions watching at home or just on a Sunday afternoon where just mum and dad are watching, it's the same. You're taking it in the same... Yeah, I just enjoy that game. And I was never bothered of things around. That's not a mindset that I found until the calm... Probably when you came. You had it later on, but not when you were younger. No, because when I had it then, I felt everything was pressure. I don't know if it's because the way I came through and didn't get through in the trials and stuff, Dennis, which probably was different to your coming through, so you were always calmer.

8:47But mine was always intense to the point where even when I was finishing and stuff like that, you know what I mean, rushing. Yeah. So when you were young, so you're finishing and everything, you was always calm like that then? Yes, yes. I was just, as I said, I could do things in training and I could do the same things in games because it didn't bother me if people were watching or people had an opinion about it. And I've been speaking to youngsters nowadays and they feel more, I don't know if it's social media or something. What pressure? They're always... Thinking about what's going on? Yes.

9:29Wow. Yes. Mm-hmm. So if I hit a ball over the crossbar, like 20 yards in the stand or whatever... You didn't care? I really didn't care. It's just that I wanted to do that, you know? And if it goes wrong, OK, it goes wrong.

9:50We're finishing then, Dennis. What position did you start when you started? Was you a number nine, straight-up number nine? and where did you start? Well, as a youngster, you mean? As a youngster at Ajax, that's of course the Cruyff thought, you have to play different positions. So as a striker, you have to play in defence as well, just to know what different the game is. You can't make a mistake there, otherwise you get a goal again. That sort of thing, just feel. Just so you can recognise what that guy's going through in that position. And if you're a right winger, which I was, I was a right winger in the youth, they put me on the left side as well, just to practice your left.

10:35Of course. You know, just go around and cross with your left. So I was a right winger, but I played more positions as well. Right back, I played right back as well, just to do the overlap. Did you enjoy doing the overlap? I like what you've done. So did you like doing that? Did you like doing it? Yes, yes. I enjoyed playing those different positions. And when I came into the first team, I was a right winger, but I felt like close, you know, it was like I couldn't be involved enough. Oh, you wanted to be more, yes. Yes, yes. So when did that happen to get involved more? Because like, let's say, for one of the better, being a number 10.

11:18Yeah, yeah. At one point, because we always played with a 10 just behind the striker at Ajax at that time. So they put me there once. Who was up front in front of you? I think it was Stefan Patterson already. I think so. So I played behind him. And yeah, it worked. It clicked. And that was my position from then on. because I felt freedom and I scored goals. Yes. I was all over, yeah, defending, attacking on the right, then I felt that freedom again, like, okay, this is it for me. So what about the finishing? Let's talk about the finishing, Dennis, because I was speaking to the guys before you came in and talking about when we used to do finishing and that you never, I never saw you do any kind of messing around in training, Dennis.

12:10Was that something you had in, right from the start, was that something instilled from Ajax when you're finishing? It's no messing around. Finish, finish. Yeah, it's... I don't know. I love to score goals and I love to score beautiful goals. Yes. But, yeah, I was always trying things, always knowing where's the goalkeeper and what can I do with the space on the left or above. So, for instance, you're going through on goal, Dennis. What are you thinking? Let's say you're going through on goal now. Now, I remember my teacher, he used to say to me, as soon as you're going through, there will be a space that appears.

12:51You'll see more, because obviously the goalkeeper, you either can chip it over him or you'll see more space here or if he hasn't done his angles properly here. So when you're going through, what are you looking for? I'm looking for that space that you were talking about or otherwise create a space. So take it one step to the right, the goalkeeper will move one step to his left and then it opens up the space there. and yeah I've had many discussions not discussions but journalists ask me like yeah you always like to chip a coal keeper and and yes you're always looking for the beautiful coal I said yeah but if you if you look at it there's maybe one yard on his left one yard on his right space but above him if you can do it right yes you can chip him you got three or four yards so so basically that it's always thinking how to do it.

13:43It looks beautiful, but it's well thought. But then the thing is the execution. So with the execution, like I said, I never saw you messing around in training. So the practice at that age, getting through, because remember you came through and it was like Van Basten was playing, Raikard was playing, Kroif was manager. Was you allowed to practice those things? Could you practice bringing those things into materialisation? Well, it's a DNA of the club. I strongly believe in the DNA of a club. They encourage that. Yeah, yeah. It's playful. Ajax is playful. In the youth, it's just do your thing, you know, just entertain people but entertain yourself.

14:23It's like you have to enjoy football. That's basically what the DNA of Ajax is. And not think too much about the shape of the team or system or whatever. Just focus on the individual and try to do the good thing, the simple thing, but the nice things as well. Would you call yourself a striker, Dennis? More an offensive midfielder. Offensive midfielder? Yeah. Because play, like I was going to say, because obviously Van Basten, Van Basten, Henri. did you compare your finishing and the way you played with any of those players like Al Van Basten played or Thierry played did you take anything I always felt comfortable well you know it as well if I had a striker up there I didn't want to be the main focus I'm like the second voice in the band you know just complimenting each other and making make it make it and I always felt comfortable with a big name or a striker in front of me who could take attention away who I could feed you know because I really love to to create put players put a striker in position that he can score for me that was at the same level as scoring goals so it was especially when you got older you know you come more in that position and I really enjoyed that, just feeding.

16:02What about the strikers today? Who would you say you'd like as strikers today? I'd probably say, I love Harry Kane. Harry Kane seems like an up-to-date version of you but obviously he's more ruthless as being the nine to score but what strikers would you say that you're looking at that you say, I like how he plays, I can play with him? At the moment I think the ideal strikers, how we knew them, like Van Basten, I think it's Harry Kane and Lewandowski and Lewandowski is of course at an age that it's not going as smoothly anymore but those two strikers for me were phenomenal and Benzema for me Benzema I try to teach children strikers you know kids a lot with his movements was unbelievable.

16:58And I tried to put it in the head of strikers that I worked with in the youth as well. Because his runs were amazing. Fantastic runs. Very underrated. I'm pleased that towards the end there, he got a lot of flowers, you know, Ballon d 'Or. Got a lot of credit for what he'd done. Because I think he was quite underrated. What do you make of the, like, for instance, you look at Arsenal's current strikers, you see what's going on at the moment with Victor and everything. What do you think of the current striking options of Arsenal at the moment? Well, as I said, the big ones are, in my opinion, like the Harry Kane and Lewandowski.

17:35Yes. Haaland is, of course, there. But the really big ones, they're not around anymore. No. So then you have to settle off for a different sort of style of football or for a lesser striker. Lesser striker, yeah. And that's what you get now. So you can be mad at those players all over the world who won't reach that level of the strikers we talk about. But it's not there at the moment. It isn't. So it's difficult. I had these discussions a few times with my son and with other people as well. Who are the top strikers now? The strikers that we used to have. you can't really find them you can't find them because like just the role off your head it's Lewandowski Kane you know Mbappe probably but he's kind of winger come yeah it's not like it was who you can pass in the feed who could be part of the team who are there with crosses you know because as a striker you need to have it all I feel but not only finishing but you have to be a link up player as well But the thing is, Dennis, I think that might be a time gone now.

18:56Because even watching the game, you don't even see people making a run to the near post to flick it in. You're not seeing that kind of movement because the game has moved to a place where the wingers are no longer right winger on right, left winger on left. It's more right left foot on this side, right finger on that side. The ball doesn't come in the box early. Everything seems to come inside. How do you think you're playing today's game, Dennis? I always try to find space. So you have to find space somewhere. So maybe I would let a winger come inside and I would go on this position outside to have a cross.

19:32I mean, Kevin De Bruyne did a lot, of course, finding the space where people would move out of their space. But yeah, I think I would be more of a link-up player. I mean, the wingers are more involved nowadays. than before so maybe i would have been a left winger i don't know just just uh coming up yeah coming up there just creating because you need players who create things nowadays because yeah because the game seems so rigid and yeah deep block to try and find space like you said you might struggle to find space yeah it does feel like it's it's quite hard to watch sometimes it's difficult it's difficult to watch but you need need to put that freedom on players who can make a difference to mess up a pass.

20:25It's more like chess nowadays. Like, okay, pass, get the ball back, get your percentage high of ball possession. I'm not really a lover of that. Nice. You know the goal. I'll call it the goal, right, Dennis? No one's done it before and no one's done it after. When you watch it, Dennis, do you think, I love this. It's the only goal that's ever been scored like this, man. Newcastle away? Yes, bro. Do you want to see it? Yes, man. I want to see it again. I've not seen a goal like it before, and I've not seen a goal like after. And then it's just like... No. What, honestly? I just love it. Jesus Christ.

21:08Yeah. It's not... Yeah, look. What a plan. Was it? Was it? Dennis, what was it? So when you see this... So this goal, Dennis, like I say, man, it's just like... Yeah. You know, it's the goal of all goals for me, simply because, like I say, I've not seen it before. And people say, I remember at the time, people were saying, yeah, did he mean it? Did he do this? I said, it's not a case of meaning it, Dennis. Can you explain to people the reaction of the fact that, like I heard you say, the ball was behind you for a start. So then, talk me through. Yeah, the main thing for me was after the game that people would ask me, like, did he mean it?

21:47You know, or me, it goes around, did he mean it? And I couldn't understand the question because, as you know, you adjust yourself to what's happening on the pitch. So when people asked me, I said, yeah, the ball was behind me. And they were like, yeah, yeah, yeah. After such a goal and you say he's... No, but you adjust yourself, like, okay, I wanted to go that way, get the ball on my right, and then play one against one. But it's behind me. So I'm still going that way, but I cut my left foot and flicked it. And everything that comes after that is just hours of practice when you were younger. Not leading up to this moment, but your first touch has to be right.

22:35The pace of the ball, the strength in the end, the finishing, that all comes together and that leads up to a great goal. But when you just split it up in all the parts, it's like pass behind, just trying to go that way with the first touch. You know from millions of times kicking a ball how the ball will react, where it will go, where it will go behind the defender. You know the defender is committed? Yeah, the defender will come in. And it could go wrong as well, but this time the defender just stepped in. I still needed to take a little bit of strength. And, yeah, as I said, it's all different parts because as soon as you're pushing, you know, okay, the goalkeeper, where is he?

23:29Right. And I wanted to kick it with my right foot. And then you have to open up your body. And, yeah, the goalkeeper, of course, leaves some space. so when you divide it up yeah although when all those things come together oh wow it's fantastic but you know as well every little bit could go wrong absolutely this is what i'm saying it's just it's probably why it's only we've never seen it again it can't be manufactured because of the fact that it wasn't yeah in this execution because if robert could do that pass he'd try and pass the ball to you in a position where it wasn't behind you so we probably will never see something like that because I don't think it can be manufactured because so many things have to go right but then when you get through Dennis the calming moment was obviously right I'm past him now, the goal I'll just slot it down.

24:19That was the easiest part for you? Yeah because then you're free and finishing one, if I didn't finish that that would have been a mistake. Did you realise in the moment, because you just celebrated like normal and then you went back kind of like did you realise the goal you just scored or you just thought you just scored? No I didn't realise it till I drove back of course with Vic in the bus the team was flying so I had four or five hours to have some text and what a call and I realised okay it was a good call it's a good win first of all

24:54so yeah driving back and the next few days I thought okay let me just I never look back games or moments I never do that so I went after two days okay I've got so many questions just let me see how they saw it and then I realised now I understand all those things as you know if you put cameras on training sessions I mean that will entertain a lot of people at home trying to get things done yeah exactly a lot of things go wrong but a lot of calls who were scored there fantastic I go for Holland The 98, yeah. This one, Dennis. Ah, then Dina. This is a great ball from him, though, man. Yeah. Dennis.

25:41Because you're way up top, Dennis. Like, literally the last, nearly the last man. Look. Jesus, Dennis, look. This is the most animated I've seen you celebrate. Look. I've never seen, look.

25:58Yeah. Did you practice that, Dennis? Because, like, obviously, when we played... Yeah. You were never in a position where you was the... That run was probably the run that I would make. You're probably here. Well, I think Cluiford was still on. I didn't see if Cluiford... There was somebody over on the left. If he goes to the side of the ball. Because remember, was it Frank? Yeah, Frank. So Frank was starting on that side. So maybe he might have gone for that run. But then he'd done the diagonal. Yeah. And then, again, then it's this... Again, I know Frank, of course, since I was 12. and we always played in similar sort of positions that we played there.

26:39And, yeah, we did a lot with the Dutch team, with Dutch players like the contact, you know? Yes. The eye contact. I had it with Wim Jonk as well, eye contact. Even from that far? Yeah, it's, yeah. Plus you knew him, so you knew. You knew, yeah, you knew. So a little movement into the ball and then go. In the end, you've got two yards or maybe one or two yards space to do this. Again, yeah, but Dennis, this is another situation. The ball's come, what, is it 40 yards, maybe? Yeah. And it's come... Yeah. What are you thinking, like, with the first touch? It's like the goal against Leicester. Yeah.

27:17So the ball's come over, Dennis, so you're thinking this has to come back here. So the touch has to be perfect to come back here. Yeah, especially it needs to be close to you. Right. The control needs to be close to you that you can have a quick second touch. Right. And then it's great to have it in the air, you know, that it comes down and you still have your feet to just sort them out. And then the defender will come in, of course, and he can't stop straight away. So you play a little bit with that. And I think the second touch was not lucky. I really wanted to put it down, you know, just to make sure that he was coming across.

28:06And then, yeah, then the finish. I think at that moment before the shot, I wanted to celebrate already because I knew it was going in. You did? I knew. I knew exactly that. This is just a piece of cake just to hit it past the car. Outside of the right foot. Yeah, that's just a given. I was really pleased for you there, Dennis, because I was celebrating, saying, that's my teammate, that's my friend. That was a good moment. It's a tense game.

28:40So teammates, Dennis, Vieira, Van Persie, Thierry, they speak so highly. When you hear the players like that level, like Vieira and Henri, saying that Dennis Berg, I always say, I always say Dennis is the best player I've ever played. do. What does it feel like, Dennis, when you hear players who've played with Zidane and play with those players, World Cup winning players, saying that Dennis Bergkamp is the best player I've played with in my team? That's the best opinion you can get from other players, because they don't do it because they like me. I mean, they might like me, but they say it because...

29:18What you bring. What you bring, and that's the best compliment you can get, of course. Yeah, what can I say? They see you every day. They see how you approach the game. And that's the biggest compliment you can get. Is that something when you... Because training then, it's like I mentioned that with the training. Every day in training you think, well, I'm getting something out of this. I'm not... This is specific. I have to get something out of this. Because everybody says that you're training, you're playing, the professionalism. You know, is that something that you worked on? Does that come from Ajax?

29:52I think that's a character thing. Like how you are. I mean, I've been a perfectionist or still am a perfectionist. I want to, everything has to be right, you know. So in training as well, yeah, if someone had a good pass, I would applaud it, but I would say, okay, the next one's for me. Yeah. You know, I just want to, yeah, that's a drive in me. Yes. But also, like, in my character, probably I want to do right, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't want to mess up. I want to do right. And I keep doing that and keep trying. Plus the DNA that we talked about, you know, that you want to do it nicely as well.

30:36Beautiful. And then you, yeah, and that combination makes it, yeah, that you come to a high level. When you think back on the teams you've played in and the teammates you've had, is there anything you'd say you'd take from teammates? Like, you know, the way some of the teammates were. I can mention Martin Keown, right? You mentioned Martin. People would laugh when you mention someone like Martin because for some reason, I don't know why, they don't think that this, they realise that this guy, for me, was one of the main reasons why I was able to perform like I did on a Saturday. And the way that Martin was preparing, it was intense, but it was hilarious.

31:18It's real bad. When you think back at those kind of characters, Does it make you smile? You say, yes, I needed mine. I needed, you know. It's true, but I always find it difficult to explain why, you know, because I can understand the other side as well. I think of Martin like, okay, what kind of player is he? Yes. But the way he approaches the game, the way he talks, the way he is always focused, maybe sometimes over the top, but you just take it in, you know. sometimes he said to me hit me before I came hit me in the face and I was like what I'm not sharp I'm not sharp so he wanted me to slap him in his face you know you should have slapped him I did but yeah I was focused but I had I had the confidence as well like okay just let me play this game but of course there are players who approach it differently they feel nervous or they feel it differently maybe they think okay if I don't have a bad game then someone else steps in lucky enough I never had that problem so I could understand those plays but well was there anything from those teammates what I learnt from Martin when he marked you in training he marked you like it was a sad game It wasn't no joke.

32:49And then you see how tough it was to score past those back guys, like whether it was Dicko, Tony, Bodie, Martin and Nigel. But is there something when you look back at those teammates and say, I'm going to take that from him, I'm going to take that from him? Yeah, I always mentioned it's so important to have an English core in your team. Wow. Like the mentality, because it's not just playing in the first team. It's when they were born, they were raised with the English game. and they brought that into the first team. So it's really important to have that mentality because they understand what the game is about.

33:25And of course, slowly that goes away with all the foreign players and stuff. But I always said that mentality is from when they were at a young age and they bring that to the first team and you should use that. So that's what I always like with the English players plus little examples from players or like the back four we had in those days. Sometimes in training, when we played 11 against 11, I found myself offside where I was looking, okay, what did they do? The combination between those four and the back four is of course something in England. It's not only Arsenal, but other teams had it as well.

34:09But that working together, I really admire that and it made me better because I could find that on a Saturday as well with another team so I had to adjust myself. Yeah, I found when we played against someone else if they were loose anywhere I could get into the space they weren't tight enough on you so we were able to get in so I felt that the levels that they got to and the thing is they should get a lot of credit those guys and Martin is because they do make you they make you better they make you better plus I think the mentality of the game in Italy, where I came from, was professional. It was from nine to five.

34:50You had to be focused and serious and normal. Coming from Ajax was a big change, of course. But then I came to England. But Dennis, just quickly on that, because coming from Ajax, because you say it was fun, you had a lot of fun, then to come from Ajax, to go into an intense environment like Inter, What was it like, Dennis, in respect of when you get... Was that an instant, like, oh, my gosh, this is, like, somewhere else? Yeah, for me, it was difficult in a way. Not difficult, but because I took it. Yes. But it was a big learning moment for me. OK, wait a minute, this is total opposite of what I was used to.

35:31Yes. I was this... I was playing a lot. I was getting five, six chances per half in Holland, so I could try little things. Yes. And in Italy, you only had one chance in the game. And you had to score, otherwise the papers were full and everything. So, yeah, that changed. But in general, it was more like a job to me, like work. The enjoyment went a bit, huh? The fun was totally different. It was totally different. It wasn't fun anymore. It was like, okay, midfielders were told by coaches, like, okay, if we run up and you see the halfway line, you stop. Don't go further. So I was attacking with two, maybe three players, you know, against five, six defenders.

36:25It wasn't my game anymore. So while you're in training and you're hearing him say you stopped there, you're instantly thinking, well, what's going to happen to me? Yeah, I know. but I was too young to and the language barrier was high at that moment so I wasn't able to change something you know and when you want to change something you need more people working with you I learned a lot those days I learned a lot and I took that with me and then in England Yeah, it became from very serious, it became more fun again. Yes. I mean... How did it feel when you first came, Dennis? Because remember, you came, and you came under this cloud of, oh, Italy, the man marking, and you just mentioned how the chances were so few and far between, and I found that any time you played against an Italian team.

37:27So when you came and then you started, remember, it was something like seven games or something. And so you were still getting that kind of negativity. What was you thinking going through that kind of phase there, then it's before the Southampton game? Well, my mind was still like... In Italy? Yeah, Italian football. Like, OK, when you get your chance, you have to... I got to realise more and more during those games, I've got enough freedom here to do more. And slowly I got into that. And, yeah, then you got your first goal and you start to realize, okay, I can do this. And I'm constantly learning from other players as well because in a way I learned as well, like, well, for you, for example, from you, like you were in the bath before the game not doing a warm-up.

38:24And in my mind it was like, this can't be done. How can you do that? And you just walked on and you played 100%. I mean, Tony Adams was missing a few days sometimes during the week. Remember? And, yeah, he was there on a Saturday. Bam. There he was. Yeah. So I was learning a lot when I came to England. And, yeah, for me it was very difficult in my mind, certain things like pre-season in Sweden. We were... Running, man. Running, training twice a day and really tough. And then in the evening I went for a walk and I saw the English players sitting there with the minds of beer and they were doing it.

39:12And I was like, wait a minute, everything you've done today is wasted. But yeah, again, it's the mentality and slowly it changed, of course. I think it changed for the better. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, but you don't realise, because obviously you say slowly it changed for the better obviously you started to score and we started to remember what we used to call you when you used to come out for training you used to say the Messiah the Messiah he's come to save us that's what we used to it was you no but remember but the thing is Dennis I think that you don't you don't realise that you you were a major part of that I remember like Paul Merson Paul Merson Merson honestly loved remember he just gave you the number 10 there you go mate take this that's for you Paul Merson said he could not believe in the Moline let you go like they did.

40:00You couldn't believe it because you have to take credit for our level of training and your preparation, where you'd come from. Firstly, Ajax, then the intensity of Italy and then you came to training and your training was on point all the time. Everybody changed. We went to another place. For me, it was nothing different. It's just how I approached the game. It helped, of course, when and Arsene came, Patrick came. Like the European influence was, I think it was needed not only for Arsenal, but for many teams. And I think especially that first wave of foreign players made a good difference to the Premier League.

40:44Yes. Yeah. Yeah, so that was a good time. Just quickly, Dennis, we go on to talk about some international. What do you think of international football? But how do you think your international career went in what you'd done? Obviously, coming in with Baston and, you know, Hullet and Rijkaard and all these players, the great Dutch sides. You know what I mean? I was so, I loved the Dutch from 74, 78. I thought they was going to win it, but they didn't do it. Then obviously they've done it in 88. But how would you say the levels in respects of the Dutch side and you getting to that level and playing in the Dutch side, the pressure that comes with that?

41:21What was it like for you, the 10 years you had? For me, it was a fantastic career. They won it in 88. In 90, it was a disaster, that team. And I, just after the summer of 90, after the tournament, I came in the national team. So they were still the same players, but a new wave was coming. It was a new generation was slowly coming into that. So, 92, I was still there with that generation, and they were fantastic. But slowly there were young players coming through, Frank De Gaulle, Brian Roy, you know, those sort of players. And, yeah, then it was our time in 94. And, yeah, there was the... There was a friction?

42:12No, not friction, but, like, the balance was changing. Marco wasn't there. Köhler didn't come. so yeah I was lucky enough to be with those players because they were absolute fantastic great players and I was just as a youngster I was coming in there and I had time to become like not the leader of the rest but like one of the main players coming in and that showed probably in 98 and 2000 was our biggest time of that generation Quickly with them, what do you think of the Dutch side at the moment? How do you think they're going to fare? For me, the last few years, you just don't know what you're going to get because they're at a level that I don't think they can compete with the biggest teams in the world, but they have players who can.

43:12So if it can gel, if they can make something out of it, then that could be a surprise. But they've got a lot of good individual players who play at all the big teams. But, yeah, it doesn't seem to gel for now. But if they can manage to do that... You think they might be able to cause a problem? They might be a dark horse? Yes, yes. Because they've got players who can make a difference. but if you look at them now, for example, you would say, oh, I don't know. But they can do it. So, yeah, it's just a matter of form of the day. What about, you look at the England side, Dennis, what do you think?

43:59Can the England side, are we in the same place as that? Do you think you look at our team? Because I look at our team and I think goalkeeper, defensive, midfield and up front, especially with Ari, with Kaya. I don't know who's going to play on the left. I think we've got the Spiner foundation for a good side. I think you're one of the favourites. I mean, England has proved that, of course, over the last few years. Some players only got better. I think you've got a problem with that you have too many good players and you have to manage the players who will be on the bench, who won't make the team.

44:41and especially in midfield up front is of course, yeah, who will you pick? Harry will definitely play. You know, Morgan Rodgers is making the charge with Jude. You know, the thing with Jude is just, when you watch Jude, he's a big game player, he's a big tournament player, so you'd have to feel that if he's playing, he's playing well coming into the World Cup, he'll probably play. But, you know, I just feel that we've, this is as good a chance as I think for a long time. I feel with national teams it's always difficult for a manager because you can't build a team. You get 11 or you get 20, 25 players and then you have to make, sometimes I think just pick your best 11 players and then decide how you're going to shape it and how you're going to because sometimes you see players on the bench where you think okay he can make a difference just adjust the team so you can have the best players in there and that's always the problem for a manager I feel that they only cut them for 10 days before the tournament you've cut them 3 weeks but you can't of course after a year that the players have you can't reshape things or tell them you have to do this so you have to do that.

46:05That's always a problem for the manager.

46:10How would you say your career has been shaped by managers? You've had Wenger, Cruyff, Michels, you know, Rinas Michels, Van Gaal. Some big names, bro. Yeah. How would you say that they shaped your career? And which one of those managers would you say, you know what, you had a massive influence on you? I think with my managers, probably Koppel at the start because I was so raw, but then obviously Wenger had the most influence over me and what he wanted me to do. Which manager would you say you know something, yeah, he's giving me exactly what I need?

46:45Well, for me, I was lucky enough to have managers who, for example, Cruyff. I came in the first team when I was 17. He was the coach. And all he did say to me was like, just do your thing. Whatever you do on the 19s, you do here as well. but this is a bigger stadium it doesn't matter he gives the confidence to a young player where you can just not focus on where am I with corner kicks nowadays when you come on there are three people around you you have to do this if you're 17 you don't want it so I was lucky to have the right manager at the right time we just spoke about me coming from the right wing to the number 10 position.

47:32That was Louis van Gaal who did it at Ajax. Did he do it specific like Dennis? I think I want you to play here because... I think he had it. I mean, people knew, you know. I wasn't the right winger like, OK, just let him do his thing there because, yeah, don't let him go in the way. People knew that I had more than that. So, yeah, it was a matter of putting me there and it worked out itself. In the national team, I was lucky enough to have Rinas Michels just to experience that, you know, because it's a big name. I had Advokat, Hering. Yes. And, yeah, I always saw managers as they can help you.

48:19Yes. They won't make you play better, but they can help you just to feel comfortable. I mean, Arsene was, of course, was the one who just played to your strength. Just let the players do their thing. So that was... Yeah, I never was a player who said, OK, this manager really made me a better player. I always strongly believe that I did it myself with the help of some managers. Some of the managers and the teammates, obviously. we're around the managers now I look at the way my game was I'm not sure I'd be able to play for Pep or even Mikel with the way it seems so it seems a bit for want of a better word it seems a bit rigid and I needed to have the freedom in the final third you know what I mean I knew that I had to it's real because the one who told me when you're up there because you've got Dennis behind you just go and do what you're doing up there But in respects of that manager, I think there's too much going on for me.

49:29I'm not saying I'm stupid, but I'm just saying that that probably would suit you playing for a Pep or a Mikel now with the way it feels so regimented. You can easily slip into being the orchestrator of that. Which manager would you say at the moment, you know, yeah, I like him, I could play under him? Well, I like, of course, that there's a philosophy, that's an idea about football, You know, you're just, yeah, if you want to be dominating, controlling the game, trying to attack, you know, playing entertaining football, that's the philosophy. And then you have your training sessions on there. You've got your players on there.

50:10You've got, you know, the mentality of all the players there and the club as well. I like that, that you have an idea of how to play football. And then it doesn't really, I mean, at Inter we played 5-4-1. I didn't like that because the four were not attackers. They were like... Defense. Yeah, defense. So I didn't like that philosophy. But if there's a philosophy and the coach is there to guard that, you know, just to... Then I think I could play for a lot of managers. but I just like the idea what you said just to orchestrate just to know that okay I want to be the main player I want to be the player that get the ball from the back and then I would feed other players and they know that that's the philosophy of the game of the team you know that's yeah if he's got the ball then everyone else must know okay now it's going to happen You see with Arteta and the way he's doing it, he looks like he's going to try and finish it off this season.

51:25Obviously, he's had three goals this season. It seems like the pressure's starting to mount on him in respects of trying to get it done. How do you think it's gone up to this point? And do you think he'll get it over the line? The danger is, of course, that people start to talk about the last few seasons. Yes. And if you let that come to you, if you're going to mention it yourself, for example, then the players will know. Yes, yes. So I feel you, well, I know what Arsene always said, just take every game by the, in this period, every game just is a final. Just focus on the next game. And that's the main thing now.

52:07I think I wouldn't be too worried

52:13because I feel the other teams aren't strong enough at this moment. City maybe coming there, but I feel, I don't think there are other teams who could catch them because they're going to drop points as well. So again, I wouldn't worry about that. Just focus on your own squad, your own team. Plus, the big games are yet to come. The difficult period is yet to come. So for all the teams, because they're all still in the Champions League and fighting on. So I wouldn't worry about that. But the only thing I would say is, you just mentioned it before, like the intensity of the first few months, the joy, the excitement.

53:03It looks sometimes now like, OK, let's not make a mistake. Yes. And that's in football, if you're at the top, if you want to be a champion, you can't rely on okay let's not make a mistake you have to you have to double down man you have to go again you have to go and you have to if you make a mistake okay and you make another okay just keep doing it keep doing it because yeah you know what remember that which time when was we which time I think it was the year we won the league and I think I was in front in front of you or something and I turned and I said Dennis our team's really good man it was the first game against Leeds it was Leeds wasn't Leeds Leeds away and we were taking the kick-off.

53:45We were getting ready to take the kick-off. You looked around like, we could be champions. We could be champions there, Dennis. Our team looks great. We didn't kick a ball yet. We were only starting. I suppose that's the belief you have to have. No, it's fine, Dennis. It's good to see you always. I love you, Dennis. Yeah, it was good. You know I love you. I love you so much.

54:08What have you been doing? What are you up to? What's going on? You look well. quite busy with a family how many grandkids now two it's the best thing ever the grandkids it's fantastic yeah the kids the kids are good of course yes that's nice because then it's got a family of like supermodels you know they're all gorgeous people all all down to my looks she's not here is he back