Can De Zerbi Save Spurs? Saka Disrespected & Salah All-Time Debate | The Overlap Fan Debate

0:00There's a real fear they could choke here. There's no other reason that you take 11 players out. If he's getting crucified, like, he's Arsenal's worst player. He's still our poster boy. Didn't answer that question, did he? No, he didn't. That's what he does. He's a politician. OK, OK, go on. Read about the game at the Etni hand. You told me Bournemouth next week. I don't care about Bournemouth. Have City got any dark hearts? Nah, we're not getting dark hearts. No? Squeaky clean, we are. Think of 115 dark hearts. Some Spurs fans are dressing this up as a show of ambition. I think it's a show of panic.

0:31Hands up. Who wants to see Spurs go down? If Luis Enrique went and rung up Man Utd and was like, I want the job, I think you kind of have to go with Luis Enrique. I would love to beat Liverpool. Oh, you know what? I'd love to beat you again. We'd be out in the car park fighting who made the worst decision. Celtic with Nancy or Spurs with Tudor. Ben needs to catch a train, don't you need to go? Yeah, sadly, I do. Train to the Championship or... Yeah, goodbye mate.

1:02Hello and welcome back to the Fan Debate brought to you by Skybet. And today I'm delighted to be joined by former professional goalkeeper making his Fan Debate debut. Shea Gibbon.

1:18So welcome to the show. A big hello to our fans and some new faces. we've got fans from north of the border because the SPL this year is very exciting and maybe more exciting than the Premier League right now. Three teams going for the title. So welcome to you to the show. And how are you feeling about the debut? On the fan debate? Did you watch it? Yeah, I do, yeah. Nervous, yeah, a few faces. I feel like we're in the spotlight here badly, but we can give as good as we'll take probably. We will. Don't worry about that one. So, all right, where we normally start most shows is the battle for the title.

1:55Probably a little bit more interesting on the back of Man City's convincing win, I would say, Luke. But Matt, I want to start with you. How woody are you after the League Cup final result and performance that this is going to affect the league title bid? I think that it was a worrying performance, but I don't think it's worried me too much. City were superb, and they felt so at home there. I didn't for a second feel like we had the upper edge on them. Apart from there was a little spell in the first half, but they took control. It was muscle memory from them. Pep Guardiola, he's been there so many times.

2:32He knows how to do the business and we were outclassed. You say that. Does that worry you that your team and Mikel Arteta don't know how to do the business? No, because I think that we've got ourselves in a position now where if we were to throw this away, it would be unforgivable. But in a final, I think that we maybe didn't respect City enough and respect Pep enough. Like I said, he's been there so many times. And Wembley, I was at the game, they just felt like they were at home, more so than even at the Etihad. And what I'm not concerned about is the fact that one positive I've taken is when we have been outplayed this season or dropped points, our response to that has been superb.

3:14I remember we lost to Liverpool and we won the following 11 out of 12, dropped to United, won the next five, dropped to Villa, won the next seven and drew to Wolves and we won the next five or six, I think it was. So after we dropped, we seemed to learn a lot. And I think a lesson against Pep Guardiola, when the shit needs shoveling, that is a lesson better than any other. So is there more fear now going to the Etihad for that big game in April? I don't know if there is more fear. I think maybe arguably less because like I said it's a lesson learned and we'll have our best goalkeeper in goal for that game which was a huge huge counter to play Very important position very important position the goalkeeper But apart from Raya's shot stopping Raya changes the way that we play from the defence to the midfield and I think City actually capitalised on that big time the mistake happens and he gets The psychological side of how do you think that the Arsenal fans will react say they go to the Adi Had in a couple of weeks and they lose that game.

4:13What do you think their mindset is then? Well, it's a game for us both to play before that. I think they go to Chelsea, we go to Bournemouth. So I'm retired from just ticking off fixtures. Since we dropped the Wolves, I don't do that anymore. So all I care about at the moment is Bournemouth. The big thing that you've got... I didn't answer that question, did he? No, he didn't. That's what he does. You see, he's a politician. So with those in debate, they asked the question, we answered. We asked the question, they answered. Do you know what he answered? I'm asking you about a game and you've just not even answered the question I've asked you on.

4:45Sorry, OK, OK, go on. Read about the game at Etihad and you told me Bournemouth next week. I don't care about Bournemouth. I don't want to look at it. I don't care about it. Why don't you answer the question? But what's the point of looking towards Etihad if we dropped to Bournemouth? I'm not bothered with Bournemouth. You're just asking about the game at Etihad. I'm asking you that question. It's a fucking massive game. I'm asking you what's the psychology. If you lose that game, I'm asking you about that. That's what I ask you. Yeah, it could be detrimental. Could be a massive sway in the title charge.

5:09but who knows, they could drop to Chelsea, we could beat Bournemouth, then the result matters a little bit less at the Etihad. There's a game in between. OK, so on this show, and not just this show, I think when we describe Arsenal, the word the dark art at times comes up for different reasons. Have we seen more evidence of that in the international break? Are you referring to the withdrawals? Well, what else would there be? Yeah, no. For Calafuri and Giocares, I understand it. I understand that they can play. They're playing in games that actually matter. But for Yedekan Rises, Ysaka, Salibas, Timbers and Gabriels and the rest of them, do you really think that they care about playing in these dead rubber international friendlies?

5:51What about all the other players who did stay and play? It's the same for them, isn't it? I understand, but these are players who are considered injury risks. And what is the point? You know, Maduweke played, I think he came off for 30 minutes. Potentially injured. There's no point in doing it. one thing that I don't understand is why they try and cover it up as an injury I don't know why they don't just come out You get fined by UEFA if you do that But why? You get fined for not taking your players to internationals otherwise everyone would just do it every time when it's a friendly But Pep Guardiola's done it plenty of times Alex Ferguson's done it plenty of times I don't see why people have a mown up But this 11 I've never I totally get what you I think the March April international thing especially when teams are going for the Champions League and the league notoriously has been one where players pull out I get that but 11 I've never seen that before.

6:38These players are going into a run-in. It's probably going to be one of the most intense run-ins of their career. It's all my city. We've done that a thousand times, mate. But why is everyone having a moment? You wouldn't be complaining if it was happening to you. That's irrelevant. That's completely not relevant. It doesn't happen to anyone else, does it? It's not really. It's awesome, is it? You are the only team that has done it. The only team that's done it. There's no bigger honour than playing for your country. Yeah. It doesn't matter if it's competitive or friendly. And also, it's 11 players.

7:02When Deke and Rice and Cole look back and they finish, It's like, well, there's three or four, maybe ten caps that could have got more for England or whatever country. Declan can sit there and Saka can sit there and say, listen, you'll see how much I love my country in the summer when I go out to the World Cup and play for them. I'm not bothering playing against Japan in a dead rubber game that I could potentially get injured and ruin my chances of winning the league for the top there. I understand, as you said, I understand, but 11, I think, is a bit where you go, that's too much. And when you're saying, you know, this game, it doesn't matter.

7:32Listen, I'm not a big lover of international football, but if everybody had their attitude, there wouldn't be international football. There wouldn't be games, would there? There wouldn't be a World Cup. I think it's with Arsenal, these players are nailed on starters. I know everyone's got nailed on starters. Or 11? Probably. We're in a relegation battle. And Bowen went and played. We could have done with him wrestling. It's different with Bowen. Bowen would love to go to play for England. So Rice and Saka... Rice and Saka, they've got nothing to prove. Bowen's fighting for a spot. I don't think this shows this potential that they are worried about the running, because that's why they're all pulling out.

8:07They're nervous. I think if I was, Luke, I want to tell you, I'm sure because you're involved, you're probably looking at it more than anybody, because you're thinking, our players have gone away, theirs have come on, they'll be rested. I think Pep Guardiola can frame this almost as a positive. I do, I really believe that. Because it is unprecedented, I think, to see 11 changes. You'd expect five or six, but probably not 11. I think Pep Guardiola can make a big thing about there must be a real fear from top to bottom at Arsenal. We all know it with the supporters because that's understandable.

8:41You've gone so long without the league. There's a real fear you could throw it away. That's normal fan behaviour. But if I was Pep Guardiola and them City players come back, I'd be saying, these are absolutely terrified of throwing this league away. Dave, there's a real fear they could choke here. There's no other reason besides that fear that you take 11 players out. It's never been seen before. There must be a real fear on the back of losing to City and then basically, you said before, you used the word unforgivable if you never won the league. That must be the feeling with Arteta and everyone surrounding Arsenal must be, there must be a real fear and I just think Pep Guardiola has got to play on that fact and actually see this as a positive, not a negative that your players went away.

9:25There is a fear running through Arsenal that they are going to choke and throw this league away. I don't agree with that. Yeah, I mean, what I'd say as well is like, they've had 11 players pull out and they had 11 that didn't turn up at Wembley because quite frankly, I thought that game was just crazy. In the second half, the way you just rolled over and you just didn't turn up at Wembley. We were having all this talk about quadruples and stuff like that. And I understand Arsenal nine points clear. I understand City have a game in hand. I understand we're going to play them in that game. But I completely agree.

9:53I think they are completely just going delirious about potentially throwing this away. I understand City have dropped quite a few howling points in the last few weeks, but I agree with what Shea was saying. If City go and beat Arsenal at the Etihad, I think they're going to be completely rocked. I think, to be honest, they're already rocked. You've got to beat Chelsea first, mate. You've got an FA Cup game against Southampton you're not mentioned, mate, as well. I think also what you missed is, by going away with your international team, it almost relaxes you a bit. You come away from that intense Arsenal pressure that you're under to win the title, and you go away, it's a different environment.

10:27You can relax a bit more. They're still training. They wouldn't get many minutes because obviously, you know, we look at what's happened with Villa. We've lost Juri Telemans for a while. He's just come back fit and he got called up immediately by Belgium. Nobody, no intention of him pulling out. All Emery did was said, look after him, give him a few minutes and he'll be ready to come back. And they knew they weren't going to play the first game anyway. Yeah, yeah. Because Tuchel said that. He kind of split the squad into two, didn't he? So they were only going to play him one. Go away, relax and then come back ready to go.

10:54Gabriel went down injured and I think he did his hamstring. He could get injured in his hamstring. He was down every game, Gabriel. He'd be fine. Did his hamstring against Senegal. Yeah, yeah. We had a friendly in this. We went away, took the rest of the players that didn't go on internationally and had a friendly in Spain and Sancho went down and hurt his shoulder. We still don't know where the injury is. So that can happen any time. So you've just got to... Yeah, damage limitation. Pull them the fuck out of the internationals. They don't need to play. Yeah, but what happens if they don't play for two weeks and then get injured in the first game back?

11:21Everyone should have had some minutes they'd have been alright yeah yeah the hamstring guys I mean just on the back anything Arsenal do battles everyone when you're at the top that's where you get shot at people are chasing you down you have to deal with the psychologically what I would say on the back of that losing the final a couple of weeks back I thought when City dropped obviously got two draws I think it was Forrest and West Ham I think they dropped four points I thought it's Arsenal's title now it's done but now when they lose the final I was looking at Arsenal thinking they can win the double they can maybe even win the treble but I think that's rocked the whole of Arsenal in a sense they've lost the final you said yourself they didn't show up in the final would you worry nobody won in the FA Cup or the Champions League like on the back of that performance?

11:59Yeah it's made me question how much these players actually want it when you know in that final we were to get to that final but like I said it's a lesson learned and hopefully they learned that lesson. You wanted to speak about Bukayo Saka the floor is yours. Every time I go on social media recently I see people having a pop at Bukayo Saka and I've sort of come to the conclusion that this country the culture in this country loves when footballers are going through a tough time they create these narratives it's happening with Neymar recently everyone's now downplaying Neymar they create this narrative of negativity and criticism and just terrible bad vibes that spiral into it and the media laps it up and the disrespect that I think is that's being shown to Bakayo Saka admittedly who is having a not Saka like season I think it's disgusting I mean Is it I mean I haven't really seen much of it you say the media but social media you're talking about Social media I've seen I agree with you but I think it's probably all there's players in all teams that we could probably say that about I just think it's football so tribal that everybody's ready to jump on you know your play's not as good as our one you know you said he was and then he has a bad season so everyone I think it's tribalism more than anything rather than I haven't seen too much media wise I've seen a lot of videos.

13:22I don't know if I'm allowed to shout out the stations that say it. Probably won't. But there's a couple of idiots, you know, sell him or he's overrated, he's a flop, he's fallen off completely. The guy has, without any right to do so, carried Arsenal his back for the last six years. An academy graduate that's been through some of the most disgusting racial abuse. He still goes to every stadium and everyone chanced it. He's let his country down. The guy is a poster boy for Arsenal Football Club. He's the perfect footballer for every kid growing up. He's an absolute legend on and off the pitch. And he's getting crucified.

13:56He's Arsenal's worst player. He's still our poster boy. He's played, I think, over 350 games for Arsenal. Basically every minute possible for club and country over the last half a decade. And one sort of sign of adversity, and now he's a villain again. Do you not blame Arteta, though, for overplaying him as maybe why we're getting this sacker now? We obviously had that bad injury. We've seen players before, so young, play so much football, it catches up with your body. When you're that good, though, it's very hard to drop you. Especially when he's... The mentality that Saka has carried from day one.

14:30I remember we were at the absolute pits and he put a tweet out saying, Arsenal fans, you deserve better. Completely turned it around. There was Arsenal players on 200, 300 grand a week. He was showing more fighting than any of them combined. And I'll always love him, but I don't think he gets the respect as a role model from the media. with the Arsenal fans back here. Talking about respect, I mean, I played over 700 games in Liverpool in the Champions League. Liverpool fans tell me constantly I was a shite. Matt, there's another one here about the offside rule. Yeah, I was curious to know with Wenger's offside rule coming in, how do you think that's going to affect defenders from your perspective?

15:06Shea, it's the daylight one. So we started, you know, probably when we were kids, you had to be behind the last sort of defender. Then it became level. Now we're talking about daylight. I don't think daylight will work either I think it's too advantageous to the forwards and to the strikers you were talking about holding a high line or whatever defending high we know about the strikers the speed that a lot of the strikers have how do you defend against that so I don't know where the happy medium is because I'm not that big fan of the semi-automated as well because remember the goal that Real Madrid scored with Bernardo Silva handball it took them minutes to get a decision on that semi-automated it was Vinicius offside, just inside the city's half.

15:48And then he showed a picture of two sort of cartoon characters saying that I think one of the central defenders was playing them on and we didn't see when the ball was getting passed and all this kind of stuff. So, you know, I think we spoke off air about it. You really want to bring it back to when we played. I know that sounds about dinosaur-like, but in a sense, like, you know, like a big toe being offside and all that. It's kind of, I think level. I think level, if you're level as a striker, you're onside. if your knee or your forehead I think recently there was a forehead it was offside just all that nonsense I don't agree with I obviously it's Arsene Wenger I'm probably one of the legends of the Premier League isn't he probably someone everybody looks up to but I think since he's come out of the game and I think he's he's obviously involved in FIFA or people who make the rules I think it is and I was involved in a in a discussion with Arsene Wenger with a group of ex-players about do you remember the stuff about the World Cup every two years and I ran on a call and listened to it, I just obviously didn't agree with it.

16:46But I think that idea was nonsense, to be honest. And this one, I just don't get it at all. It doesn't matter whether the rule is behind the last defender level or daylight, it still comes down to that. There's got to be a line somewhere, and it's whether you're that far in front or that far behind, basically. For me, I don't know how a defender, how it would work. You try and place someone offside sometimes, or you hold a line, you think, he's just gone past me. What's the daylight one? how does that even God knows how that I think it's nonsense to be honest I find it mad how in a week where they've done a massive fan survey across Premier League fans saying has VAR improved the in-stadium experience that they're trying to complicate the game even further and they're not listening to the people that actually pay the money to go and watch it it's just like please just rip it up and start again it's just like it's made the game worse made it too complicated the thing that we all loved with technology everybody loved goal line technology didn't they we all no one ever because it's black and white exactly and that was probably the thing to stay but listen I think we'll be arguing with VAR I think I was probably one of the reasons why VAR got involved with Thierry Henry handball I think for us we was out in the World Cup finals on the back of you may laugh now but it wasn't funny to tell you but that was such a big decision such a big call and had VAR been involved at that time and I think it came in not long after that because there was a big outcry of an injustice towards us that we didn't qualify on the back of that so I think there is a place for it but I agree if you and agree with the fans in the stadium they pay their hard earned money and they get probably the least best experience if I had even the right English but they should have some sort of communications inside the stadium to help you guys That was a clear and obvious one wasn't it?

18:25And that's where it should be in my opinion Anything that's subjective is going to be subjective whether it's a referee making the decision or somebody And the other thing when it takes four and five minutes just stick with their on-field referee It's not enjoy the game in this stadium you get the goal and then you have to wait and celebrate again Is there scope to go to with an example like that or any other clear and obvious examples is there a scope to then go to a challenge system do you think then maybe it's going to elongate it even more it's in American yeah something like that so it's like at least that is so outrageous where they can quickly see that clear that up and you know sort of just the other thing I think I'd like to go on as well is time you know we're talking about time sorry we're going off on one here but time wasting I think it should be taken out of the referee's hands and the officials it should be some guy stopwatch I'm free like next week with a stopwatch here and my whistle but all joking aside when the ball goes out of play the thing stops yeah I agree a clock and you do 30 minutes each way 30 minutes each half because you get more in time football I know what you're saying you get more in time there's something about the time we all know it's 90 minutes there's something about like the 90 I understand what you're saying but when people start saying it's 30 minutes each half and you're playing an hour of football and you're playing more football I get it but I just don't think you can get away from 90 minutes there's something about 90 minutes of football but I do agree with you in terms of time I don't know what the exact in time play is at the minute but it's less than one hour it depends I think your team are near the bottom are they?

19:50Newcastle are always near the bottom of ball in play but then there's no argument is there? no one has an argument unless you do it like that done for goalkeepers taking too long now is it 8 seconds and then you have a corner unless you did that for throw-ins where it's like right you've got 8 seconds to get the ball back in play or it goes the other way we've got corners next year as well yeah I can look at corners as well that's the hard thing it's like you want to take these things out of the game but you also want them to interfere less. I think for me, you'd get rid of it and you'd say it was a thing that didn't work and we need to maybe rethink it.

20:17Yeah. They're trying to double down on it. We've all been involved in games when the refs put up four minutes or six minutes. And to your advantage, how the hell's he got that? It feels like they've just made it up. But if you've got some guy with a hooter in a bleeding stadium with a stopwatch, no one can complain then.

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21:29Luke, we're going to go to you. Manchester City. I know you've got a lot to say. As pay. Come on then, get it off your chest. Yeah, well, just for starters, I know Matt's already spoken about the Arsenal game, but he came on here and said, and uploaded just before the final, and said the winner of the League Cup final, that Pep Guardiola doesn't give a shit about, Arsenal hungry to win a trophy, all this stuff, the winner of the League Cup final would win the Premier League. That was filmed prior to you dropping. When did he upload it? Two days before the final. He put it back out two days before the final.

22:02I want his own socials Yeah I just want to know if you still stand with that No I don't stand with it Okay Convenient How confident are you about the title? As confident as I can be at this point like I said before we're nine points off Arsenal nine points is a big gap you know what I mean but we've got the game in hand we've got a game against Arsenal we know that they often do come to the Etihad and fall apart we've seen it before they've not won there since I'm sure you'll be able to tell me what 2015 so it's been over 10 years since they came to the Etihad and won I don't think they need to come to the Etihad and win and that's what worries me slightly about the game if they just come up and set up for a point which I can expect them to do hopefully we can beat them we've had teams like United in 2012 come to the Etihad and try and take a point and it didn't work so if we can beat them in that game and we win our game in hand I think we've got every chance of catching Arsenal but it's whether we can win all our games because if we're going to win the league we've got to win in my opinion all eight games and it's whether we can do that In the time you've been watching City I would say most seasons they've probably been going for the league or you're in a battle with somebody.

23:07How do you rate Arsenal as a challenger compared to what you've had before? I think there's a complete contrast in how they play football and how we play football. A lot of our title races were against, obviously, Jurgen Klopp's Liverpool, and there was a lot more respect between maybe the two styles of football. But ultimately, Arsenal this season have sort of squeezed every drop out of these dark arts, which people might not like, but I guess Mourinho was doing that however many years, 20 years ago and yeah, they've benefited a lot from it. I think this is a very new Manchester City team and it's an easy thing to say and obviously people are going to say I'm just using excuses and stuff but ultimately for the last 10 years we've lost a big player every year.

23:46Last year we lost Kevin De Bruyne. We've replenished the squad a lot. Everyone will talk about how much money we've spent and stuff like that and we've got so many young players. You look at Kusanov coming through. You look at the signings we've made, Ryan Cherky. The senior players like Nathan Ake, the players that we signed four or five years ago. So for me, I think this is very much a rejuvenated team and it's one that I think is going to have a lot of success going forward. But this is kind of the first... It's almost, for me, like a third generation of Pep Guardiola's teams. And I think, yeah, as an opponent, I don't think Arsenal are the best opponent we've had by any means, but this is maybe one of the less strong City teams we've had.

24:22You know, before you keep saying about dark arts and everyone says about Arsenal. Yeah. Have City got any dark arts? Nah, we've not got any dark arts. squeaky clean we are think of 115 dark hearts yellow cards Rodri stop and counter attacks I mean at least he's getting a yellow for it I mean some of the Arsenal dark hearts that are going on like Raya punching players somebody remind me of how many penalties Arsenal are giving away this season zero zero yeah exactly there should have been one or two but we've been quite well disciplined at the back throughout they've been disciplined at the back but he's just said they should have been one or two we've had a touch of luck I mean there's a good argument when you talk about the challenge City have dropped off the season and dropped too many points in my opinion to probably be really but you think of Liverpool and you were talking about Jurgen Klopp before and the many title races they had and they were pushing all the way weren't they the last couple of weeks of the season and they played some brilliant stuff as well so do you maybe look at that and go don't care how we get it done get across the line get the job done Ultimately we're all fans so if Arsenal win the league I don't think any fans are going to care how they've won it but it's whether they can replicate that again and again which obviously they're going to aim to do if they do win the league I don't think it will be a sustainable way of playing I've seen a few times maybe this season Arsenal have kind of just been shut out maybe like when they played Forest some teams maybe just kind of do the same back to the minute in a way and sometimes like we said with a couple of the decisions they've had a couple go their way but ultimately so far this season the table shows they've been the best team at getting results and that's it's results business isn't it football hate to bring out all the cliches but they're top of the league at the moment and if they win it they're not going to care how they've won it so yeah as much as I don't like it and I'd love City to go on and pip them.

26:00They're top of the league at the moment, aren't they? Right, I want to ask everyone in here, we've done it before, I think, with City and Liverpool, see who you want to win the title, Arsenal or Manchester City. So, raise your hand if you want Arsenal to win the league. Sophie's choices. Man City are your rival, I don't understand it. I think it would be just entertaining if you bottle it. when they win it you just forget about it they're catching up on you but they've got about like 10 fans so you don't realise it when they win the title if Arsenal win the league you just see it everywhere 10 fans I'd go for Arsenal just a different a different winner so so go on who's got their hands up for Arsenal by the way just reasons why Aaron come on it's just a bit different I mean as a Scottish football fan we're used to the same team that's been in the league all the time up here so the same kind of applies for England if you have a variety of top of the table and someone else wins that you've not seen win for a while or win before I mean people still going to be Leicester winning it over 10 years ago because it was different it was something new and if the same team wins it every risk gets boring Yeah no I agree that's probably why I've put my hand up So City fans who wants City to win it?

27:16I'll ask for this you want City to win because obviously you're an ex-player do you want City to win not because you want City to win you want to see Arsenal fail Yeah. Is that what it is? Yeah, 100%. I would take the same team winning every year. Why is that? I just dislike Arsenal as a club. I dislike their fans. And like we just heard, it would be hilarious. It would be all-time entertainment to see them melt down and bottle it. So I would take Man City win it for every year for the rest of my life. If it meant they didn't win it or these didn't ever win it. Did you hate Arsenal? Did you hate Arsenal?

27:52I've hated Arsenal since I was a kid. I've always hated Arsenal. They've got a bit of Sky Blue on the shirt as well somewhere. Yeah, do you know what I mean? We've got the West Amchester City connection. We might be going through something else there now after that draw. Why do Arsenal get hated so much? What do you think? Why is that? Why do you want to start? Social media probably amped. The fact that we're actually quite good now. We weren't hated in 2019 when we had Emery or towards the end of Wenger because no one cared about us. We were a laughingstock. Now we're a little bit of a problem.

28:28People want to... Oh, they're doing 11 players on it. You won more trophies back then, though, than now. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, but we won an FA Cup. There was no threat. It was like, oh, little Arsenal shit team. But that's what you've got now, though. I know. You've just gone with one FA Cup. That's all Arteta's ever won. I understand, but we're competing on all four fronts. I know we've just lost... All four fronts. Nico O 'Reilly will have something to say. You're now chasing. You two behave yourselves, right? There's one man who I have no problem not wanting Arsenal to win anything for obvious reasons, is Ben.

28:57He's a big Spurs fan. So we're going to look at the other end of the table.

29:05Dezebi. Yeah. Thoughts? Not massively happy with it, to be honest. I think there's a multitude of reasons for that. Some are related to off the pitch, some are more on the pitch. it's caused a split in the fan base which I don't think is necessarily what we need at this point in time we need that kind of unity need that division we don't need that division sorry in terms of him as a manager he is without doubt the best manager that we could have got in this situation I also don't necessarily like that some Spurs fans are dressing this up as a show of ambition I think it's a show of panic to be honest with the situation that we're in and I think a lot of the responsibility for where we've gone wrong this season falls back on the club and the ownership themselves, and I think this is another example of it, chucking money at the problem, giving him a huge bonus, a huge wage packet to kind of come in and join now, to convince him to come rather than in the summer.

30:00It's a sign that they've understood the danger of the situation that we're in far too late, rather than months ago when Thomas Frank should have been sacked earlier and not panicking, to use their words, in the January transfer market. De Zerbe has also got a long history of volatility at other clubs that he's been at. He's barely lasted more than two years at any club that he's been at. And we've given him a five-year deal. I think from a footballing point of view, I think the way he wants to play and his tactics align with what we want to see at Tottenham. We've spoken about Thomas Frank and the fact that he was too pragmatic.

30:36I expected him to be able to evolve and develop as a coach more here than he did. And I think Deserby plays the right kind of brand of football that we want to see at Spurs, which is important. But he's obviously got a big firefighting job to do now with seven games to go and there's obviously a question about whether he's going to be able to implement that style this quickly or whether it's I'm going to do what I can now to keep us in the Premier League and then go again next season and really use pre-season to do that. Ben, you said you and it seemed like a lot of Tottenham fans and listen, I think it's just football fans in general.

31:06They're just so negative and everything's always... If you're in a position you're going to be negative aren't you? I know, but what I'm saying is who are you going to get? Tell me. So you're saying you're not happy with the Zerbies. I understand what you're saying with the off-field stuff. Yeah. The on-the-field stuff and you're saying there's question marks, there's this, there's that. What were your... So, you know, I know people in terms of football clubs get a lot of criticism and sometimes rightly so. The Tudor appointment was a disaster for you. What could they do? What was their option?

31:32No, I get it. Beggars can't be choosing in this situation. So what's your problem with it then? To be honest, it is more of the... a lot of the off-the-field stuff includes some comments that he's made in the past and I think he should be held accountable for that. But also, So the fact that do you really... I know we've got to think about the short term right now and I do naturally feel more confident about him coming in because he's got Premier League experience. I know he didn't win his first five games at Brighton, but he's a better, more experienced manager now than he was then. So there are definite positives to it as well.

32:02And look, beggars can't be choosers. We are in a dreadful situation that we should never be in. I just think that there's so much stuff around the appointment that reflects badly on the club. Who would you have appointed? Who would you have laid to have come in? And before De Zabie was getting spoken about, if it wasn't De Zabie, because there was talk that he didn't want to come now, he wanted to come at the start of the next season, who would you have put in charge right now? My personal preference was Ryan Mason. I know, obviously, it would be his third time as the interim manager, and he didn't do that well at West Brom, but I think, from my point of view, and I can understand people who would argue the opposite, he's someone that does know the club inside out, has already got a pre-formed connection with the players because he was assistant manager last season under Ange, and only obviously left in the summer to take the West Brom job.

32:45Again, he didn't necessarily prove anything at West Brom, but I think he'd probably just come in, have that relationship with the players, which is maybe what they need right now to kind of inject a bit of confidence back into them, probably play more kind of square pegs and square holes, just simplify things a little bit, which I think is, you know, Tudor obviously had a lot of injuries to deal with, which, you know, every manager at Spurs has had over the past couple of years. But by the time we got to that Forest game, off the back of Liverpool and Atletico Madrid, where we showed more encouraging signs and kind of development, we had too many players back to kind of play as many square pegs in round holes as we did in that game.

33:17So I think someone like Mason would probably simplify things a little bit. And I never really massively understood the red nap shouts or those kind of things because I think he's been out of the game for so long. And yeah, the fans would get behind him. I think the fans would get behind Mason as well, which is why I said I think we need a bit of unity right now to kind of get us through this. You've seen the efforts that Spurs fans have gone to to try and get behind their team. And I think that would be amplified even more if there was a manager that we really kind of could connect to. I understand the arguments on the opposite side of things that he didn't do well at West Brom or whatever.

33:47It's like you need someone with more of a strong presence. Do you go and get Sean Dyche, who's got more relegation experience? You start to lean more towards that idea because we've never been in this situation before, not in my lifetime anyway. We haven't been relegated from the Premier League. So I don't know. I don't think anyone's got a bad idea. I think because we're panicking and because we're not used to being down here, any idea that someone throws out is not a bad one. I just think we're all just kind of like having to get out of it. Also I'd say on the back of Tudor he was supposed to be classed as a disciplinarian and no nonsense.

34:20Now Deserby talks volatile and you're talking about a group of players who are very fragile. I know you've got a lot of injuries and that's no one's fault managers or maybe even the powers that be at the top. But these guys are fragile as in the players the 11 players and you're bringing in another and it's very common disciplinarian takes no nonsense. Maybe they did need somebody like a Harry Redknapp that's going to go lads you're all brilliant arm around the shoulder to get it across the line. if the Zerbe lose these first five games you're in the championship next year and that's what happened at Brighton or whatever he didn't lose them but he didn't win them so it's like it's a big concern if the Zerbe loses that first game against Sunderland because there is that split in the fan base and he hasn't really got that much credit in the bank people will start to you know there won't be like right let's kind of move past that we've now got six games to go we just need to kind of keep getting behind the team there will be a lot of negativity off the back of that I think this is where the players have got to take responsibility as well But I think the managers have taken a lot of the flat throughout the season.

35:13I've put a lot of the responsibility on the club and on Thomas Frank during his time here as well. I think a lot of that was because Thomas Frank was getting, I think he was getting a bit of a free pass in the media to an extent. And I think a lot of people were pinning the problems on the players when we weren't seeing any real signs in terms of his tactics. And he wasn't playing the sort of football that we wanted to play despite probably promising it to start the season. But the players have got to look at this now and think that you were the group that won the Europa League for us last year.

35:39You got the monkey off our back. You gave us, in terms of my generation of Spurs fans, the best night that we've probably ever had in our lives. And those memories that you spent with friends and family around that Bilbao final will last forever. But your legacy as a Tottenham player will be defined by if you get relegated or not. Because people won't remember that team. So they've got to step up. You look at someone like Romero, who I've defended a hell of a lot, but you go back to that second goal against Nottingham Forest. He comes out and says, I'm going to give it 200 % in Spurs' last seven games.

36:05It's like, well, it would have been nice if he did that for that second goal. You look at Forest and you look at West Ham, and because I think they're not to be patronising, but they're used to being in this situation, those guys at the back, Murillo and Milenkovic, saw that in their last game, they can organise a defence. They can stay disciplined and committed for 90 minutes to get everything away, head, kick, everything away, whatever, and just kind of pull other players, you know, sort of take responsibility and get them doing what they need to be doing as well, whereas it feels like we haven't got that.

36:31Maybe De Zerbe will inject that with that kind of harder approach, maybe because the style is similar to what we saw under Ange it's going to be interesting to see whether he tries to get them playing from the off or whether he tries to get them to defend and counter it's going to be fascinating maybe they do need that or we're not going to know until the first game he's got 10 days before I'm with you a little bit with the players and what you said about the manager I think we highlighted that early on on Monday Night Football it just didn't seem right with Thomas Frank the way they were setting up at Tottenham but they've had three or four different types of managers Ange, open football everyone loves it Thomas Frank pragmatic manager a disciplinarian comes in Tudor now we've got something a little bit different with De Zerbe they just keep getting beat whatever they're doing so I mean a lot of it does fall on the you say De Zerbe De Zerbe ball and all that he's obviously quite good when it gets going but are these players capable of taking them instructions on board straight away or you made a good point is he going to go back to V6 and goal we always think if someone's fighting relegation it has to be a Sean Dyche Allardyce type of we always think oh you've got to get someone in maybe I should get on the ball and playing scores some fucking goals.

37:35I think that's our best chance. I think that's our best chance because I think that De Zerbi's style of play is similar to what Ange wanted to do in terms of drawing a lot of players into kind of deep build-up, baiting teams into pressing and then trying to attack the space in behind. Obviously, it's risky. It's high-risk football and you've got a group of players that aren't the most confident at the moment. But if he tries to... Like I said, he's got quite a bit of time before that first game. A lot of these players will be coming back in the next few days. He's got players coming back for injury as well.

38:02Do you use this 10 days before Sunderland away next week to say, no, we're going to go there and play, and we're going to try and show a bit, because like I said, they're really struggling to keep organised at the back at the moment, keep that sort of discipline. You're hoping maybe that that muscle memory kicks in a little bit, because Ange got, when we were at our best under Ange, and obviously it did go wrong, he did get players who weren't necessarily perfectly suited to the way that he wanted to play over performing. Look at Vacario, for example, who one of his biggest weaknesses is with his feet, but under Ange, he was a lot better because we had more options on the ball, he was encouraged to be more brave so naturally he wasn't as bad.

38:36If you're being encouraged... He's injured now, isn't he, but Vicario? Well, he's having the hernia surgery but I think he might miss one game maybe. But then you're asking Kinski to come in who's been taken out of the Champions League. Yeah, but also if you've got a manager now in the Derby who's going to say, look, I'm going to trust you the way that you play... Look, Kinski didn't show it against Atletico Madrid, obviously but his biggest strength actually is playing with the ball at his feet. So again, if you've got a manager that comes in that is asking you to do that and saying, look, I'm going to back you, you go for this and if you make a mistake it's on me I'm asking you to play that way it might give those players the only thing I'll say sorry I'll quickly say is like when you're in the position you're in confidence is an all time low Ginski plays into the sixer or the defender and they give away a goal straight away the whole thing it just goes flat doesn't it this is the thing as well with the fans because like naturally there is a I feel like there's a little there's 20 % of like every football fan's brain no matter if you're supporting Man City and you're watching Pep Guardiola trying to build out from the back if you're at a game even if you're in full confidence your team are thinking just get rid of it Just get rid of it.

39:31If you're in a relegation battle... Even more so. You don't necessarily... Even though I would rather... I want to see Spurs play good football. But primarily, I want to see Spurs stay up. So naturally, if you're in the ground, you can be thinking just like, let's stop dicking about of it. Let's try and go long. But we've tried to do that and it's not worked. Maybe getting them to try and play, I think might be the best way to go and try and outscore teams. Do you regret hounding Daniel Levy out? No. No, not really. I think Daniel Levy, there is a bit of revisionism on him naturally because a decline has massively accelerated since he left.

40:03But he is also part of the problem in terms of why we are where we are now. I think if Daniel Levy was still at the club, Thomas Frank probably would have been sacked earlier. I don't think we'd necessarily be in this precarious position. Daniel Levy did do a lot of good things for Tottenham, but he also held us back with his kind of micromanagement of every single aspect of the football club. I think he was a bit of a control freak in that aspect and didn't really know how to run the club in a modern way and maybe give responsibility to other people and also just show a bit more ambition. I think he was hamstrung a bit by the people that own the club in terms of loosening the purse strings etc and I think those are the people that should be in the spotlight and obviously Vinay Venkatesham coming in this year has to take a lot of accountability for I think almost gaslighting the fans in a way I think the last time I was on here was off the back of the West Ham game where you beat us which is when I first said I think we could really be in trouble here and the gap was nine points then he came out in the programme before that game and said we're going to break our wage structure in the summer we're going to do all this the January transfer window was nowhere near good enough for a situation that Spurs find themselves in with the injuries that we've got.

41:04And, you know, us as fans could all see what was coming. So if we get to the summer and they don't do that, and you've got a manager in Deserby that's fallen out with boards in the past for wanting control over transfers and not getting what he wants, it all smells like it's a bit of a recipe for disaster. But I don't think anything will fundamentally change at Tottenham in terms of being where we should be and where we threaten to be until the owners go. OK, listen, a little one. it just comes to me now because I know the rivalry and Spurs again is one of those teams probably a little bit like Arsenal where people look like probably not want you to do well for whatever reason I don't know what it is but hands up who wants to see Spurs go down?

41:45After the favours it gives us six more points we just lose to you twice every season for no reason purely for numerical reason mate that's why I don't want to see Spurs go down that doesn't mean I want to see one I'm not getting into Volvito I want to go down but the point I'm trying to make is I just think when I think of games I think of Spurs Liverpool is a big game I think of Spurs United I think of Spurs City Arsenal I wouldn't want to lose that from the Premier League as a neutral I've got no skin in the game with Spurs I think the thoughts of Spurs going down and a team from the Championship coming up and those games don't feel as big against City or Arsenal I think we'd lose a lot if Tottenham went Would it be that big of a loss really compared so you've got Liverpool, Man United we've got Man City Man City we've still got big games it's not that big of a loss no but I just we'll have a little break there's five or six games in the season that Spurs are involved in that if I'm watching on a Sunday afternoon I think I want to watch it's one of the best stadiums in the country as well isn't it I'll be playing Lincoln next season Lincoln at home first game I'll be there you can close the top tier why don't you want to play I wouldn't be gutted if they went down.

43:00I'd laugh my head off. I don't actively want them to. This is a load of bottles. That is a load of bottles. Dan, like J.V. Tingey, it was a passage. Dan.

43:17You're starting fights and we're coming to you now. You've got to get your chance now. You're obviously loving Spurs' demise. How worried are you? I mean, because I think if Spurs weren't involved in this relegation, in fact, they feel like they're dominating all the headlines because you just cannot believe Spurs are there. Yous have been there a lot more, obviously, over the years in the Premier League. But it'd still be a huge thing, wouldn't it, for West Ham to drop out of the Premier League? I mean, how are you feeling about it? But is there also a little flip to it that, obviously, you're worried, you're nervous.

43:50But if you could stay up and Spurs went down, would that almost be one of the greatest seasons of Premier League? Yeah, listen, it would be absolutely brilliant. On the other hand, if we go down and we're the reason Spurs are still in the league and we go down, that hurts even more. So it is worrying. I'm nervous. However, in terms of team-wise, I think Spurs are the worst team in the league right now. We're a lot better than them if you go on form. So I'm confident in that regard and deserve to be coming in. I think any manager, if they would have got dice, I'd probably be doing a little bit more worried.

44:23It's another roll of the dice. You know, there's a chance it can click. However, they're not built for this. You know, De Zorbi's not built for this. We've got people, we've got a manager that's been in this situation. We've got players that have been in this situation. Fan bases, you know, we're experienced in this situation, unfortunately. But overall, if we was to go down, yeah, it'd be devastating. It'd be absolutely devastating, especially the situation we're in with the stadium. A lot of teams are going to come there. It's their cup final for us because it's a big stadium, but for us we don't tend to enjoy it.

44:57The fan base isn't going to really make an atmosphere. Well, you mentioned the stadium. It's an interesting one there. There's a lot being made, hasn't there, in the last couple of weeks about the stadium and the athletic stuff. They wanted it for the... What was it, the athletics? The World Championships, I believe. Yeah, the World Championships. So there was a little bit of... Keely put a tweet out, didn't she? Having a little pop at West Ham. But a little scenario here. If you were to get relegated, would you take staying in the championship for five seasons if it meant when you came back, you could go back to the Upton area?

45:34A hundred percent. A hundred percent. If you said 10 years, right, I would take it. Yeah, that would be a no-brainer. As much as Premier League's great and all of that, look, we're not in danger of winning it any time soon. But just to be able to enjoy going to watch my team again, that would be everything. I gave up my season ticket because I just don't like it over there. It's just not where... Is it the actual... I mean, when I commentate there, it's probably the one I just... I say it dislikes the wrong word. You're just so far away from the pitch. You can't sort of see players at different times.

46:09What is it? Is it the atmosphere? Is it the area? Is it getting there? Is there no pubs around there? Because going to a game of football is not just about sitting in your seat, is it? It's the way you go, the people you meet, going for a drink before the game, after the game, the area it's in. What are the big things about it? Yeah, so pretty much everything that you said. So it is the distance, although I was quite close to the pitch in my seat. But it feels like neutral ground. You know, you go in there, it's probably the only stadium where all the seats aren't coloured the team's colours. You know what I mean?

46:40The only stadium at that place. You said the walk-up. There's only one proper pub round there. A lot of it's all Westfields, very posh. We haven't got the old burger vans and stuff outside the stadium. it's very corporate so everything in and around just don't feel West Ham it's the things they could do you're talking about the big I don't understand are they rules set in stone that you can't have it almost like an old fashioned stadium or I don't know it's the things the club could do yeah I mean it's tricky because we don't own the stadium you know and that goes to a lot of issues that we're having is we don't own the stadium so it's the OLDC that own the stadium that make the money and they go and all the vendors you know they'll sell it to the highest bidder so you don't get the old boy who's selling the scarves and the badges and all of that.

47:24You're not going to get that. You're going to get all these corporate food places around there because that's the issue. As long as we don't own it, it's not our home. They realise they've made a bad deal. They don't want us there, and you can feel it. And now, like you said, this World Athletics thing coming up, they're wanting to boot us out for three weeks during the season. I'm glad we're sticking to our guns on that one. And like I said, Keeley's saying that they'll win more medals than we've ever won. will we get, you know, like 50 or something for winning the Cup of West Ham? Do you think there's any chance of them building a new stadium at all?

47:57Well, yeah, I had this out with Simon Jordan and that went a bit mad over that because I said I hope that we can go get a new stadium, right, which was ridiculous, outrageous for me to say. But we've got the land there. It depends. If we get, you know, one of these Saudi owners or something who can maybe come in and buy the stadium and either restructure, knock it down, rebuild, that would probably be the most likely thing, right? You'd have to have massive ambition. And it is very funny. The same people that said it was ridiculous for me to hope for a new stadium are now saying that Newcastle should go and knock down their stadium and get a new stadium.

48:31So I don't think it's complete fairytale. But as fans, hope is everything. And that's the hope I have. I have to hold on to some hope that one day we can get a good match. The thing you would say about the new stadium, we've both played at the old Upton Park. It used to be quite intimidating for the keepers especially. The abuse you used to get from behind the goal. and what's it called? The chicken run. The chicken run. And over there, it was a spicy sort of welcome you would get. But again, that's taken away. The new stadium, the fans are miles away. There's no intimidation for away players or fans.

48:59So many season ticket holders have been lost, haven't they? Yeah, yeah, they have. I think nearly 40 ,000 season ticket holders have been lost from when we had Upton Park to now. So from year on year, just walking away, and I know so many. And it is because, it's not because of success on the pitch. Maybe if we'd been winning trophies and that, people might stuck around a lot. But it is that enjoyment. And I think, actually, if we'd stayed at Upton Park, we'd probably been more successful. We was really good in that last season. And that advantage you spoke about, that cauldron, like teams not wanting to come, I think we probably would have won more than just a conference league, which I'm grateful for.

49:36But they talked about moving here for Champions League football and, you know, eventually we're going to compete for the league. That's why we need to move to this stadium. And like I said, none of it comes to fruition. What I would say, one crumb of comfort for Dan before we move on, whatever, is I do think you'll stay up. I don't know why, I've just got a feeling that you've been in that position all season and you've got the manager, you've said the players, they all know they're in that position, whereas Tottenham, for example, in free, I'm not saying they're going to go down, I'm just saying I've got a feeling about West Ham that they'll stay up.

50:03We've got Wolves next and we play before them, so if we win that game, they drop in the bottom three and that pressure could... That is the worry, it's like if you drop in, then it might be one of those things with Spurs, if they drop in, then it all of a sudden kind of kicks in. But it also is the opposite. We could relegate Spurs and win the FA Cup this year. Do you want to go after the FA Cup or do you want to stay in? It's such a tough one, but I lean towards the FA Cup. Winning that conference league was amazing, but to win the FA Cup, we won it when it was a top, top trophy, when it was bigger than the league, when we were winning it back in the 60s, 70s and 80s.

50:40So to win that trophy, again, I think it's special to a lot of West Ham fans. So to have that moment of seeing us win it, to have the parade the next day in East London, I think as horrible as it would be playing Championship football in that stadium, I would sacrifice that for that moment of just having that FA Cup and the memories. Because you were so close, weren't you, in 2006? Yeah, yeah. I did as much as I could to help you, but you still didn't take it. You know what? I would love to beat Liverpool to win that FA Cup. Oh, Liverpool? Yeah, I would love to beat Liverpool to win. Oh, you know what?

51:12I'd love to beat you again. Right, now another part of the table, Champions League positions. Justin, you look fantastic. Thank you. What's the secret? Fitness, diet, exercise, thank you. Yeah. Lost a bit of weight. Yeah, yeah, you're looking really well. And I love the tracksuit top. Thanks, mate. So good. Really smart, that. Is that going back to the European Cup? Not really, the badge is that era, but yeah, this is just the Adidas gear that's coming out. She's been absolutely brilliant this season. Is Unai Emery the best manager in the Premier League and do you worry about losing him? I think he's in the top two, yeah.

51:52We've got to say Pep, haven't you? I'd agree with that. No, I don't worry particularly, no, not this summer. I think there's going to be a lot of talk about him, but that's because of how well he's done with Villa. I think the only potential two clubs in the world that could have a serious chance of getting him out of Villa would be Madrid or Barca. I don't see any Premier League club. Not Man United? No, no. I thought, I'd done a newspaper article a few, a couple of weeks ago saying I couldn't believe he's not, people aren't talking about him as like, you know, the only worry for Villa is what more can he do?

52:30I always think, almost, not hash to, but it'd be nice to win a trophy, wouldn't it? Yeah. To look back on it and years to come, 10, 15 years time, like Ben was talking about, spares, you've always got that sort of, something you can look back on. You'll all look back on the time of the year, fantastic Champions League, football was great, exciting nights at Villa Park, but you want something to sort of hold on to. But with the PSR stuff, it almost feels like, what more can he do? Well, we're getting there now. The evolution from where he was when we came in and the club was to where we are now is incredible.

53:04I mean, we posted our last set of results yesterday. We've made a profit. Very many clubs in the Premier League make profits these days. So you won't have to sort of sell in the summer, do you think? It doesn't look like that, but I'm sure some rule will come out that we have to sell another player, because that's what we have to do every winter. Didn't you sell your women's team to yourselves? Yes, we did, yeah, yeah, yeah. But these are, you know, they were loopholes that were exploited by clubs legally, unlike other clubs that do things. Chelsea. Quite amazing. Sorry, I thought you were Chelsea in there.

53:30But yeah, that's the frustrating thing. You see things like that Chelsea have done historically, and City still haven't been held accountable for, then it's really frustrating for a club like that. Alleged. Sorry for jumping in, because we're on that question. The Athletic published an article on Villa's€97 million loss in 2024-2025. I know that's obviously a year ago. So we have Kieran Maguire on, don't we, on the show every few months. And he thinks he could be in trouble. Champions League qualification is essential. Yeah, we will qualify for the Champions League. I'm pretty confident. Oh, you're reading it here first?

54:08Yeah, no, I mean, it's been a very, really strange season. You know, from the start, the first five games, we got three points. We couldn't barely put a shot on target or anything else. And then we went on that amazing run that basically put us in third position most of the season. And then after Christmas, then we had the three horrendous injuries in three games where we lost basically the whole of our midfield and arguably our three best players. To lose McGinn, Tielemans and Kamara in successive games, it was just ridiculous. And that caused this drop-off, which a lot of people went on social media and said, oh that's it now Villa have gone we always knew that was going to happen but then just before the break McGinn's back who's the soul of Villa he's just one of our best players of the season I watched McGinn last night I was at the Everton Stadium for a Scotland Ivory Coast game and he come on sub and you know when someone as soon as they come on change the game and just looks a level above everybody else that's what we've missed yeah yeah and I think people outside of Villa don't realise how good a footballer he is as well I mean everyone talks about his passion his desire and his backside and his backside As soon as he came on yesterday, he just knocked this well out.

55:12That's John McGinn, isn't it? We love John McGinn, and he's, like I say, he's the soul of Villa at the moment. And then Tielemans, he's back now as well. And I think if you look at what we've had to navigate through the period under Emery, which feeds into what you're saying about the financial side, I think he's done all the groundwork now. And the off-field stuff, the owners are phenomenal. Everything we've done off the field has been brilliant to try and bridge that gap for the financial reasoning why we keep getting these sanctions and why we have to keep selling players. We sold Jacob Ramsey in the summer to Newcastle, 50 million.

55:44We had to do another deal in January where Marlon was having a really good season with us, but they had to make a decision and say, we need to rejig the forward line. We want to bring a different type of forward in with Tammy Abraham. So we had to make that decision to let him go. And there has been mistakes in the transfer markets, but we are working under a really, really tight budget. I can't emphasise that enough. In the four years since Emery's been at Villa, we've had an£84 million net spend. To put that into context, Burnley, in the same period, have had£114 million net spend, and we are sitting consistent qualification for Europe every single season.

56:20The wages. I was just going to say, you've nearly answered the question already, so we started the question about Unai Emery, so again, he's done everything, selling some of your best players to try and balance the books and sort of wheeling and dealing nearly in the market, and still, you would say, overachieving. So my worry from a Villa point of view would be he could join a Man United or a Real Madrid or something, but what I'm saying is he would have even more of a budget. Because there's no doubt when he goes to the Etihad or to the Emirates or wherever he goes, he feels a bit, in my opinion, handcuffed because he's the top manager.

56:54We just said we're probably the top two managers in the country. But what's going to keep him at Villa Park, whereas if someone, one of them big ones, really come and get him? because he's got a, not an open checkbook, but a lot more budget he spent on players. The big thing, it's control, isn't it? It's control, yeah. He basically runs the show up in Villa. And I think what he's done at Villa to get to where we're at now, where hopefully these financial shackles are being released a bit more, is why do all that groundwork? Jimmy's just said that you might get fined if you don't make it... No, I don't...

57:23Ian McGuire. Ian McGuire said... Ian McGuire is not here said... I don't want Villa fans coming for me. The bane of my life as a Villa fan the last four years, which has been a fantastic period, All we ever talk about is money, finances, PSR, SCR. Can we actually buy a player this summer without having to sell a player? Which has been terrible over the years. So the fact we are competing season after season after season, he's a manager. And he's essentially playing with a squad that he inherited still. The nucleus of that team is still the players that he inherited. He's a fantastic coach, first and foremost.

57:57Whatever Arsenal fans tell you, he's a brilliant coach. and the reason we are successful is because of him but what's happening off the pitch is equally as important to get us to that level where we can. But he strikes me as a manager that wants to win the Premier League. Absolutely, that's what he wants to do. No disrespect to you or even for Newcastle, I think with all the restrictions we talk about, you've got amazing owners with huge wealth behind them but they're not allowed to spend the money. What I'm saying is if you and Emery will get to a stage where you go, well, I can only do so much now, what do you want me to do?

58:25Maybe, maybe that might be the case but I don't see that in the next 12, 18, two years because of what's happening off the pitch. You know, we had just started the rebuild of the North Stand, which will take us well over£50 ,000. We've got the warehouse, which just opens£3 ,500 capacity match day experience for fans to come in, which is huge. All of the corporate areas of Villa was redone last summer in just one summer, all redone. And yet, ticket prices are a big talking point with Villa fans. You know, they are quite expensive for where we are. They are sort of London prices. I'd love those to come down.

58:57and sometimes clubs hide behind the fact that you need to get revenue from every single aspect and I think sometimes that's a bit unfair, especially on fans that are being priced out of football, which happens at a lot of clubs. And in a way, I'd love the financial restrictions just to be totally gone away with, but then that would lead to mayhem, so you've got to stay within them. I think what really hurts is the likes of Chelsea have done what they did to get all them years ago that gave them that platform to kick off from, and that's given them a head start and advantage. And then all of a sudden everyone went, oh, we can't have that anymore.

59:33We can't have another Abramovich, so let's bring all these rules in. And the horse had bolted. They'd already got that. Their revenue streams had gone through the roof because of the players they brought in, the salon amounts they sold Hazard for. So that gone. So clubs like Villa and Newcastle that are trying to push the boundaries are just being hampered every step of the way. So the fact we are competing with a Chelsea that have spent£1.7 billion on players in four years. It's insane that we're even in that conversation. Is there any Chelsea fans in here? No, he's not on this week. I absolutely love what we're doing.

1:00:08I think it's fantastic. I agree. Brilliant manager. Okay, well, normally we have the Liverpool fan on. Gareth must be in a bit of squad rotation. He's not here today. I give my view on Liverpool most weeks. So, Shea, I'm going to ask you a couple of questions on Liverpool. Okay. basically what have you made of slot in Liverpool this season and was it always going to be tough to integrate all those signings I don't think it was no I think because you're signing some amazing players I mean Isak was like he's not hit the ground running with injuries and form what have you but you know when you spend that kind of money last summer I was as a inverted commas expert asked the question who'd won the league I said Liverpool and I was asked who'd won the Champions League I said Liverpool because when you add that sort of quality to the squad that was already there I know they sold a few as well.

1:00:55I thought that they would be competing with City and Arsenal for the title, they really did. So they've dropped off a lot. We're sitting here today thinking, can they make Champions League football? Which, if you said that at the start of the season, you'd go, no, they would cruise to Champions League football. So they've definitely underperformed for whatever reason. I mean, a couple of players have left, I think, which Diaz on the left was a big loss. Obviously, Mo Salah's not hit the heights he has last season. reasons why Isak's obviously had his injury problems I don't know I don't know it doesn't seem to be clicking for whatever reason and I do think recruitment last summer was top heavy they went a lot in the market with forward players and forgot about the defensive side of things and they've conceded too many goals so in the cold that of day in hindsight you should have maybe went out pushed the boat out to get for example Gahey in and maybe not pushed the boat out for Isak perhaps because you had Ekotiki already but that's the way they went and maybe they're paying the price now Yeah, it's been a mess, but it's going to be an interesting summer again.

1:01:53You've just mentioned Mo Salah. And since we're on here, he's announced he is leaving at the end of the season, moving on. Where would you rank him in an all-time Premier League list? And how will Liverpool replace him? You mean Liverpool or Premier League? Do not say he's sixth. You mean Premier League or you mean Liverpool? Well, just, no, Premier League. Where would you place him? You think of all the great players we've had. Is he up there with the absolute best we've ever seen in the Premier League? I think it's argument's sake again, but I think he's in the conversation. It's difficult if you sat here and we asked all these fans for your 11 best Premier League players of all time.

1:02:34I don't think we'd get the same 11, would we? But he's definitely in that conversation for that right-hand side. The numbers he got last year, goals and assists, was incredible. Not the only reason, but one of the main reasons why they won the league was because of Mo Salah. and again it's just it's a shame how it sort of never really comes to a good end does it any sort of when a top player leaves the club there's always like there's always noise negative and positive you know but I think he would be definitely in the conversation for all time 11 and if you want to talk about maybe foreign imports into this country the Premier League he'd definitely be in that 11 you know players from outside of this country perhaps you know he's an amazing player I don't know you'd see a lot more than me but from the outside you know I think he's been immense.

1:03:18Yeah, he has been. I think he would get in a Premier League. I just want, we've done a couple of votes on this show here today. Would he, I mean, if I was picking a Premier League 11 all-time, he would be in my front three. Mo Salah would be on the right wing. I'd have Thierry Henry as the centre forward and have Cristiano Ronaldo on the left. Just, you know, in this room now, would Mo Salah be in your Premier League all-time 11? Yeah. Probably, yeah. Definitely, yeah. Put your hand up there. Who's in the argument for that right-hand side? I mean, you could have Ronaldo on the right. Ronaldo on the right.

1:03:56Bale. Bale on the right. Marez. No, I think Marez deserves respect, but he's not on the level of what Salah's done in the league. Bergkamp, Bozzola, I'm thinking of just in general. I know he's probably a lot younger. I think it's between those four of Shearer. You can shuffle around the front three. Salah and Ronaldo is that four and one of them. You could have Shearer up front, you could have Henri on the left. Ronaldo on the right. I always have this argument. People always put Henry on the left. He used to always end up on the right. He used to always end up on the left because he kept bending past me on the left-hand side.

1:04:26He played on the left at the start of his... He played more so on the left at the start. He wasn't a left-winger. He played centre-forward. Also, I feel like when we do these 11s, we always just go 4-3-3. Yeah, I know, I know. You can play 4-4-2. You also just preference as well. Salah, Ronaldo. Rooney even. Rooney. You can play whatever you want, but what I'm saying is whether you're playing in right midfield or right wing, I don't think there's anyone else who you naturally think I know Becham was a completely different player but he is someone you think on the right he was a brilliant fan he was a right midfielder rather than the right winger but I don't think Are we forgetting any obvious ones?

1:04:59Mahrez or Saka Who's he? Are we forgetting any obvious ones? That's what I'm saying I think Saka Mahrez but not quite Hazard Who? Hazard He's more the left isn't he I would say It's Salah or Ronaldo and based on the Premier League what they've done in the Premier League is Salah yeah I agree Rooney it depends on his lot Rooney surely he's getting the models he's in the middle isn't he yeah they compete with Amri really Aguero and Rooney it also depends how much you value like longevity or at their peak because it's the whole I mean it's the international break so it feels apt the Hazard-Salah debate which comes around like every five minutes but again it's like I don't think this level of longevity of what we've seen from Salah will be repeated for a very long time he's got the third most goal contributions in Premier League histories yeah he's in he's in he's in isn't right

1:06:15keep the flavour ditch the subscription get 20 % off your first two orders with code APRON20 terms and conditions apply visit blueapron.com slash terms for more Alice hi Manchester United it's your debut on the fan debate so we're welcome so Manchester United I think one of the big things I think or one of the real big positives this season is not obviously where you sort of rescued the season if you like second half the season but I think the form of the goalkeeper Oh, Le Monde. Since he's come in. I mean, are you thinking you've got the real deal here? Because that's been a real problem position, hasn't it, for a long time for United?

1:06:52At first, I was thinking early days, you know, let's see. And it still is early days. But I'm thinking, I think he was£17 million. He's on quite low wages. It was relatively unknown. I thought, you know what, if it doesn't work out, it's not the end of the world. We haven't spent crazy money because I think Inanna was£50 million. But he makes everything so calm. The amount of times there'll be a shot at Inanna and he would spill it and maybe someone would then just tap it in from the opposition. or Inanna would just make something look so complicated or so awkward. Like I was watching the Bournemouth game the other week and every time the ball came, Le Mans just caught it.

1:07:22And sometimes it was a really hard, fizzing shot and he just catches it, he doesn't spill it. He makes everything so simple. And I think we went to Inanna because we wanted a more ball-playing keeper. And I think Le Mans is definitely a better shot stopper than ball-playing keeper. But with his feet, he's solid, he's comfortable. But I think we've seen that having a good shot stopper has been really beneficial because I think the biggest issues last season was striker and goalkeeper. And I think getting a striker and just more attacking power than Buma and Kunia and a good goalkeeper is one of the main reasons I think that we've gone from 15th to maybe third, which is a big jump.

1:07:56What's your feeling on the managerial situation? Is it had to be Michael Carrick? Has he done enough right now? Or is there somebody else out there you think they have to get the job? I don't think any decision should be made until the end of the season because, look, things could massively change. which we don't know. But as of now, I think Carrick is the standout candidate. We're talking, you know, Tuchel's probably going to stay with England. Ancelotti's going to stay with Brazil. You know, De Zerbe's gone to Tottenham. You've got Enrique. I don't think he's going to come near Man United. Emery, we wouldn't give him the control.

1:08:23Ineos want a head coach. So you look out there and you're looking at the options. You're like, maybe Narl Gosman, but he's got the World Cup and wouldn't come in late. I think if Michael Carrick gets third place, the players are very on board with him. I think it's probably, one, a safe option, because I think Ineos don't want to upset the fans. and I think they'll be like, OK, they like Karak, he's come third. But also, like, we sin that sometimes changing it can ruin things a bit. You know, we brought in Ameren, we wanted to change it up a lot and Ameren wanted wing-backs and this and that. And I think we just realised under Ameren that Man United isn't a wing-back team.

1:08:53We are a 4-3-3, 4-2-3-1 kind of team. And I think, you know, with Karak, we can sort of have an idea of what we need to do in the summer, whereas another manager would come in. And I don't think he would come to us, but like Xabi Alonso would want to do something very different, for example. Well, I'm going to interrupt you now because it's very funny. you've just said this Pep Guardiola is leaving Manchester City April 4th mate

1:09:17I don't think it is right we'll get back we'll edit that bit I don't know he was right for that great shot sorry Alex for interrupting you yesterday you were talking about a new manager coming in who could basically almost rip up a little bit of what you've been doing right now and the success that you've been getting yeah I just think Michael Carrick is maybe the safe option. I think, look, if Luis Enrique went and rung up Man United and was like, I want the job, I think you kind of have to go with Luis Enrique because he's a world-class manager. Is it almost, that's the way I feel a little bit, is it almost, it's Luis Enrique or Michael Carrick.

1:09:52That's the way I feel like most people are sort of feeling it now. It's a lack of options. I wouldn't get rid of Carrick for Glasner or Marco Silva. For me, unless it goes really wrong between now and the end of the season with Carrick, for me, it's like you need an elite manager wanting the job or you stick with Michael Carrick. I think on the Carrick thing, because a lot of Verticom's experts, like Gary and maybe Roy and stuff. Experts? Maybe Jamie then.

1:10:20Before Carrick managed that first, it was the Manchester Derby, I think his first game in charge, is that right? Yeah. And they were all saying, there's no way, it doesn't matter how well he does, he couldn't get it because of what happened to Ole Gunnar Solskjaer and all that stuff. But I totally disagree with that because I think, you know, he's given this platform to go and see, is he a good enough manager? He's man-united through and through. if that's your argument because Oli failed at the end or whatever you want to say. Oli also worked with different people. I know I've given Ineos a lot of criticism, but I do think the recruitment under Ineos is more planned.

1:10:48With Oli, we desperately needed a defensive midfielder. Everyone was like, go for Declan Rice, go for Declan Rice. They kind of ignored it. I do think as well, one of the reasons Oli didn't succeed was a lot of the players Oli wanted, Bellingham didn't get, Grealish didn't get, Declan Rice he was begging for didn't get. They ignored midfield after year after year. I think with Michael Carrick he should get more support and hopefully we don't get a repeat No, but what I'm trying to say is I think that's a poor argument they say because Oli didn't do well in the end Can I just interrupt? Sorry, sorry But what I was going to say is if that's the case then there's no guarantee that a top manager they've had Mourinho, they've had Van Gaal they've had all these Ruben Amaroum was the best manager in Europe before they got him and stuff the argument falls apart because you can't get any manager saying because Oli failed I think Michael's done well people always say Oli was it that I don't think it was that bad Oli Crossell I'm totally honest what he did is I think the UE he got Man United playing good football they were back up there and that's sort of was Oli Crossell ever going to be a Premier League winning manager we didn't look at him like that to be from afar or a Champions League winning manager that's probably the way we look at Carragher you look at it and I think can he win the Premier League you know when you think of some of the big managers that do it but people always say that it failed with Oli I think with Oli I think you finished second one season the Europa League final was a killer for you if he'd have won that and been able to get a trophy and the next killer was bringing Ronaldo in for him under Solskjaer Man United were alright they were decent now would they ever make that last step which is always the hardest probably not but it wasn't like a disaster it wasn't bad it wasn't Tenar type of football or Ruben Amaran it was not good and it was very close and couldn't make that last step and when you think about do you come up against as well?

1:12:33Klopp, Liverpool, Pep City. You know, it was always going to be tough for them. So I think sometimes when we talk about Solskjaer's United, it gets dismissed a little bit too easily. It was a lot better than what people give them credit for. Our team that came second, obviously, we lost out to that incredible City side. We're in the Pep, obviously Klopp era. I do think that team that came second right now, if it was in the Premier League right now, going up against Arsenal, there could be a debate of, could he have won the league that season? Obviously, that's not the case. but I do think that team that came second even the season we came third we played good football it's just we couldn't get that trophy over the line you look at Ten Hag he came in, won two trophies already won more than Arteta and he left he was able to win trophies some managers can win trophies and some managers can maintain form and I think with Ole I think a big problem was the recruitment going for Ronaldo over Declan Rice don't get me wrong bringing Ronaldo back was an insane moment he got nearly 20 goals which is nuts and we've lacked a striker since Ronaldo left.

1:13:34We replaced him with Vecost and then Hoyland. But we completely neglected the midfield. We had McFred playing deep and McTominay, we've all seen, is not a defensive midfielder. Look at what he's done. Now he's been allowed to play further up. I think had we actually sorted out the midfield, potentially things could have been different. But again, he's competing with Pep. He's competing with Klopp. It was really, really difficult to maybe match those levels as Oli. OK, I'm going to ask you about Lehmanns. but before I do Ben needs to catch your train don't you need to go yeah sadly I do yeah sorry guys yeah okay train to the championship or yeah good one mate

1:14:14nice one sorry guys good to meet you thanks Ben thanks mate see you soon see you soon see you soon I was going to ask you about the goalkeeper am I impressed are you with him yeah I like him a lot I think you mentioned Alice about just bringing that calmness to the team you know you know under Onana or whatever, Bayon Deer, even the first game at the Manchester Army, I was surprised that Ruben didn't just chuck him into that game because I know City signed Donnarumma the same week or the same sort of window and he was chucked into that game because Bayon Deer and Nanna were... They're shaky. Shaky, to say the least.

1:14:46And I think even, Jamie, as a defender, when you're walking out onto the pitch and there's a guy behind you thinking, what's he going to do this week? How's he going to perform? Can we cover him as a defence? You talk about a really good back four. But again, conceding so many weak goals, Man Utd, it was a real Achilles heel for them. And again, I'm surprised that Donano came in because Ten Hag had him at Ajax for a number of years. I don't think he's at the level to play for Manchester United, I really don't. Yeah, he's good with his feet, but I would even question that if I'm being honest. Yeah, we didn't see much of it.

1:15:16I think now with Ammons, and you mentioned someone so young as well, and he's just very calm. Even I remember a month ago maybe they played Everton, they were bombarding him with balls into the box and he was just punching stuff, getting stuff, whereas previously they end up in the back of your net and the keeper is found wanting. I think that's the sign of a top keeper. We're not talking about him that much in a good way. You're not talking about him every week. I'll see the goal, he can see it again, see the mistake he made, see that. He's a very calming influence and I think that calming influence spreads through the team and I think they've got a brilliant goalkeeper.

1:15:47FA Cup quarter-finals this weekend, Shea. I'm just going to look at them really quickly. Who's playing who? Basically, who's left in it? No, I want you to just say, who do you want to see in the final? well I'll go through I would think Man City are going to beat your mob at the weekend early kick off Chelsea Port Vale you might as well be Chelsea I think Southampton Arsenal you guys will win that yeah but they've got so many injuries don't forget Arsenal well yeah hopefully they recovered hopefully they recovered after this you know traumatic international break West Ham leads West Ham leads I think West Ham will win that I mean I I think the final will be the League Cup final if I'm looking at the teams that are left I think it'll be a City Arsenal final once again can I ask you both a question quickly do you think do you think the FA Cup semi-final should be at Wembley no no where should it be played I think there's enough I think there's enough big stadiums now in this country what's Old Trafford 76 there's enough big ones anyway even if it's 50k we've had the Community Shield at Villa Park Leicester's Ground no I mean the argument they use which is fake anyway which is like oh more people could come and watch it they've just got to pay for Wembley we all know what it's for but what I'm saying is I think when I was a kid Villa Park I mean I went to Villa Park in 85, 86 and 89 to watch Everton in semi-finals that was just like that was the semi-final ground Brilliant yeah Ellen Road was one with Everton v Spurs and I think there's something special about two Premier League or two teams playing like a stadium that they play I think it's quite quick I played two semi-finals at Old Trafford actually and the place was Yeah but what I'm saying is the stadium's a big what's Tottenham?

1:17:19But the prize to play at Wembley then in the final like we're going to Wembley in the final like to play in the semi-finals It's not as special, is it?

1:17:33So we've got our Scotland boys in. It's, as I said, at the start of the show, the top of the show. It's probably the most exciting SPL season we've probably most of us have ever seen, really. You've got to go back to the mid-90s. So Aaron, I'm going to come to you with heart and the situation you find yourselves in. And the reason I say go back to the mid-80s, I do remember, you probably won't remember, certainly don't know, I do remember the last game of the season. It was the Celtic one, wasn't it? Did you get your own goal difference? Oh, I went... 86? I mean, 86, yeah. And then the cup final week after?

1:18:12Yeah, we lost at Dens Park and then lost the cup final the week after. That probably still gets spoken about a lot. Oh, yeah, I mean, I wasn't around, but my dad still tells me, all I've been hearing this season is, enjoy it but don't get too kind of delay because we all some are going to win the league that year and then look what happened so put it this way we could be mathematically guaranteed the league in the final day and still be thinking how are we going to throw us away how are we going to possibly make an absolute mess of this it's just the pessimism that gets drilled into there when you support a team in Scotland that isn't one of the old firm you've just always got to you always feel like it's going to be one of these two over your shoulder at the last possible second but it's been an incredible season so far but you just want to it's a really fine balance between enjoying the ride and also being like okay but what if this actually happens what if we actually go all the way what do you do how do you act because no one knows how to act if it even happens you know so far this season for people like us who don't watch the SPL every week and you think it's a surprise hard today it is a surprise obviously but do you think you are actually the best team in the league?

1:19:19right now yes because we're top of the league if you want to call us that. Do you feel like they're coming? Are you nervous? Sometimes you look at a team and you might be ahead of them but you think they are a better team than us. We're almost hanging on here a little bit. Do you have that feeling or are you confident that you can hold them off because of the quality you've got? It's been a strange season in a lot of good ways but I've never felt more confident playing against the old firm than I do now. I mean, when I was a lot younger when Brendan Rodgers' Celtic team were destroying absolutely everybody.

1:19:50I had to grow up watching them win title after title after title. Normally at Tyne Castle, it was to rub it in there a little bit more. And they had that fear factor. But this season, both Old Firm teams have been so catastrophically bad at certain points that they've kind of lost that invincibility and that fear factor, both of them. I mean, I've never thought I'd see us win at Ibrox and Parkhead in the same season, let alone do it multiple times. It's incredible. And taking the game to the Old Firm has always been a very difficult task for any team in Scotland and the fact that we've been able to do it on multiple occasions it's just no sweeter feeling full offence intended no sweeter feeling than beating the big Glasgow team Aaron can I ask you you just said there that you know at times they've been really bad this season is that why hearts are where they are or the point I'm trying to make is the points you've got right now I don't know what that is is that a normal point that like a champion would have at their stage of the season or is it almost like a low points figure because they've been poor and you've been able to sort of, you know, capitalise on that?

1:20:57Well, they did pull away at some points but I think that because Celtic and Rangers have sort of got their act together, I mean, it's not quite more for non-stable anymore at Celtic Park so they've kind of been able to motor a little bit and Rangers have kind of got their house in order with Danny Roll replacing Russell Martin and they've slowly got a bit of that competency back but we've just been so good that we're still with him to beat. but I just think that it's been a combination of us being really good and them being really bad at the start of the season if that makes sense to you I think that it's been a combination of both factors that have led to us being in the position that we're in now but it's not just because they've been bad we've been really good as well and it's important to remember that as well You're a big fan of Tony Blue?

1:21:39Indeed yes it can't be understated there's two things obviously the investment's great that's obviously going to help us out but the recruitment has been top notch you're signing boys like Clare de O 'Brager from the depths of the Norwegian third division for half a million quid and he's gone on to have the season of all seasons and you're thinking if he does leave it's going to be for big big money you're signing complete unknowns people would have laughed at you going you're not going to win a league signing boys from that division six months later seven months later it's like well look at them look at them now look at how well they've been playing it's just been incredible to watch Barast of GM anything that we could do wrong this season we have done wrong the situation with Brendan where there was clearly a disassociation with him and the major shareholder what did you think about that that took me aback I've never seen an owner speak about a manager like that before in my life I would like to say that bearing name with Dermot Desmond the notoriously litigious Dermot Desmond that wrote it I would like to make no comment on that statement whatsoever.

1:22:46I think it was... And the fact that Brendan didn't come back at him, I don't... Because Brendan, you'll know better than anybody, he is a shrewd operator. There's not a word comes out of his mouth that he's not thinking five steps down the line. So the fact he didn't come back at it has been suspicious. But I think the simple fact was he didn't get control. You know, you were talking there about how Emery's got control at Villa. He wanted more control. And I can see why. Because we have not... He wasn't signing the players, apparently. And other than Kuhn, which we signed him three years ago, our record in the transfer markets then has been horrific.

1:23:32We've not signed anyone of any... We like to buy low, sell high. Virgil van Dijk, originally that was... We picked him from, I think it was a couple of million from Holland. We got, I mean, Southampton in turnout. They got a bargain. You know, we've been in that. Matt O 'Reilly that went. We've always paid one, two million, three million for players. And then we're looking at players, teams coming in for them. We have nobody in the squad just now that will get more than 10 million for it. I don't believe. So we're not, we have, and also just the Nancy thing. I mean, you said earlier, and I'm not having it.

1:24:11we have that was I mean again if Ben and I Ben was still here we'd be out in the car park fighting who made the worst decision Celtic with Nancy or Spurs with Tudor you know because they both had the similar times So just going on that then briefly the Martin and Neil was in charge at this point and Nancy came in do you think as a fan that Martin should have been given to the end of the season at that point or is that too Well I would like with hindsight I would say yes at the time bearing in mind he took over just before in December the idea would be seven games to the transfer window so the idea was give a manager games so that he can assess the squad we knew that he played three at the back so you've got to give him a transfer window I think you should have given Martin seven more days but you had Hearts at home you had Roma in Europe and you had St Mary's in the cup final I know and I thought it would have been a nice way to finish Martin picking up the trophy and going thank you Martin very much then Nancy comes in a week before it didn't make any sense at all again that's what I said right away every single opportunity we've had this season to make right decision wrong decision look that's the one for us let's go wrong we've done it every time and I've got no confidence and whose fault is that then is that oh it's the board it's as simple as that it's the board there is a lack of planning there is a lack of connection with the fans everything that could be toxic at a club at the moment it's toxic it's Celtic and that is something that these two guys on my left hand side here they are lapping up you know because it's opened a door Long day it continue Well I'm sure these guys sitting round are going why is a Celtic fan getting upset you win everything every year blah blah blah I get why they would think that but one thing that every fan of every club wants you to be the best club you can be with the resources that you've got right you know West Ham you're in a rented stadium you want If you can stay in that Premier League, that's you doing the best with the resources that you've got.

1:26:13City, you've got great resources, so you want to be at the top. So that's what you're looking for. We ended last season with 70 million quid in the bank, which might not sound a lot in English Premiership, but in Scotland, that's massive. The advantage we've got in both of these clubs is huge. To put it in the perspective, we broke our transfer record this season and it was 2 million quid. The most expensive player ever. and he's also barely played so that's been great but the financial advantage Celtic have over everyone's ridiculous and while it's very funny to lap up your pain just now I do understand why I do understand why yous are so up in arms with the board and the fact that yous don't compete in Europe enough when you see teams like Bodo Glimt going as far as they're doing the champions they've got a tiny wee ground yous have got Celtic Park yous have got loads of money you should be doing better than you are but you're not which is great 18 months ago we took Bayern Munich to the wire.

1:27:08And that was a good Bayern Munich team. So we were at that point where we could kick on from here. But we got rid of Kyogo, who we still haven't replaced, 18 months later. You tried to replace Kyogo with Kyogo before it fell through. I know, exactly. Literally, it's been a shambles. If you ask me, can we still win the league? The answer is yes, because we've still got to play Rangers at home. we've still got to play Hearts at home we can both beat those you know if we beat both of them but I've got no confidence we can do it not after the Dundee United game the other week there I've got no confidence that we can do that Shea you've obviously a 20-year-old former clubs isn't it the man O 'Neill situation you're saying he probably should have had a little bit longer in the middle of the season but he's been the manager well he's the manager now and he's done a brilliant job would you want him to be the manager going forward?

1:28:06I don't know if it's long term that's the right answer Martin's 73 I think now but I do feel that he definitely should have been given that week extra and then looking back now in hindsight it's an easy thing to sit here and go he should have been because Nancy didn't work out Clare didn't work out he tried to change the system mid-season didn't have the players to play in that shape and all the different things so that was a I think that was a no-no and that's easy to say after it didn't go well but I just think Martin at age was probably at that stage and doing so well I think the board had a chance to go do you know what Nancy might maybe be an option in the summer or someone else perhaps or whoever it might be but let's give it to Martin he knows the club he knows the fans love Martin don't they and again he's talking after games there's a real you know the fans are not speaking to the board and the board there's protests and all that so Martin's having to try and manage all that manage a team that maybe is not good enough to win the league but still in with the shout as you say so there's a lot of disharmony I suppose off the pitch and Martin's trying to manage all that I think Martin if he won something this year would be a phenomenal season in a sense with all he's had to put up with.

1:29:06But I don't think long-term Martin will be the answer. I'm sure they're looking and speaking to people maybe for the summertime. But again, it's a mess when you think we talk about 70 million in the bank last thing. They should be out of sight now when you talk about Hearts and Rangers and they're not. I mean, where is that money? Is that money still just sat there? It's sitting in the bank. I mean, this is as bad, I know it's, again, Israel, this is as bad back to the Lou McCary days. I mean, some people had the sense to get out of the club when Lou McCary was manager, obviously. Pointing no fingers.

1:29:36But it's back to that mid-90s that there's a lack of connection. But is this class now a reset button for Celtic, you think? Well, we're going to have to look at something along the lines of what happened when Postacoglu came in. Because the year that Rangers won the league and then Postacoglu came in, I mean, his signings, his first transfer window was absolutely sensational. You know, we've got Kyogo, Matt O 'Reilly, we've got a lot of really, really good players in there and it clicked, well, five or six games. So we're looking at, Lightning needs to strike twice because the club needs absolutely gutted from boardroom.

1:30:18Well, management doesn't need gutted, but obviously I don't think Martin Nguci at 73 is a man to take us all the way forward. So you're looking at a change at boardroom level, a change at management level, and the team needs an incredible refresh. And we've really just got to hope that there is an Ange Mark II out there. But I'm not confident. OK, Kai, are you confident about Rangers this season? Danny Rawls come in. I think the Rangers are probably the team that's been in the most cardboard trajectory recently. I think Hearts, you look at their results since January, I'm sure it was like 5-1-0 wins or something.

1:30:55I don't think it's sustainable as good as it is for them. I think you look at every kind of stat metric Celtic sit on top of all of them but I think Rangers have just been really steady in coming forward just getting results I think disappointed with the old form cutlabs playing so well in the first half and then dropping points there but I think if we win the two games before the split I'd be really confident they couldn't get it over the line The situation this season you're actually happy that it's not just you and Celtic and there's actually somebody else involved In some ways, does that make it easier that the attention is not just on the old fame constantly day in doubt?

1:31:34I don't think it makes it any easier. The question and answer will probably be different at the end of the season. If we do win the title, Hearts are doing so well, but the pressure should be on them because of where they've been. But I think there's still more pressure on regions of Celtic to get there. I don't think people still expect Hearts to win it at this point. again I think they'll have Devlin and Shanklin to come back which will be huge but like I say that amount of 1-0 wins I don't think is sustainable over the next like seven games so I still think Hearts are in the best position obviously they're at the top of the league but I still feel the media put more pressure on Rangers and Celtic to get back to where they think they should be I was that way to be fair just let them all the attention beyond Rangers and Celtic let us just get a bit of us just quiet generally I prefer it that way I mean we can win 1-0 what you would say I suppose as well the pressures on Celtic Rangers even with their fans playing at home like there's a pressure at Ibrox there's a pressure at Celtic Park isn't there to performers hearts there's more of a feeling that's you know can we encourage a team to get over the line that's probably the feeling isn't it you could say there's been a bit hot sale at Tincastle recently is it not not so much like the stadium ringing with boos but I think a lot of fans kind of disappointed it's more nerves I think it's just because we as a fan base aren't used to being in this position it's like we wanted to happen so desperately and we want that a bit of success that when I mean I've seen some good Hearts teams and some terrible Hearts teams we like a boo at times but it's just like you want it to happen so badly that sometimes you kind of fall back in your own ways It's funny I can totally understand we have that discussion with Arsenal so much here and they probably used to probably winning more titles than yourself but it's funny even me being in Liverpool and you go to football and you know obviously not got a keen eye on the Scottish stuff but even people who I go to the game with or who are into football I would have had to get on it's like it's almost like this desperation I think around Britain certainly with people I speak to one I ask them in the league it's a story it's something different so it feels like everybody's rooting for you it's like when Leicester were top as neutrals in Scotland we were all like oh we hope Leicester win it just for the story I mean at Tyne Castle there's a load of guys with Albert Kidd syndrome you know that they remember that game you know Denz Park Love Street you know and it is just that we are taking nothing for granted until it's the last whistle and the last day Right you three who's going to win the league who do you think is going to win the league each of you give me a shout what you think right now and try and be as neutral as you possibly can I can't say it's going to be I think we I think we will still win it but I am it's a 51 % confidence that's it because most of it's coming from here not from here if you don't win it who do you think would win it I want hearts to win it I know what you want I know that I'm going to go hearts absolutely hearts hearts glorious hearts all the way Aaron go on do you think you'll do it yeah I think we are I think we're going to do it might as well near a cast of the master I think we're going to it'll be difficult but there's no we've got this far because we've been very good and what's the point in getting to this point and not wanting to back your team?

1:34:55Do you think the helicopter pilot is going to be flying round? With the trophy last game of the season? Where do I land this thing? That would be a stressful one. It would be, wouldn't it? If it's not us, I do think it will be Rangers though. I think if Rangers won the two games before the split, then Rangers, based off how we've played against Harlis at Ibrox and how we've played against Celtic recently, I don't fear going to Celtic park or Greencastle in the running. hearts are normally quite bad in the split as well even historically we've always struggled to win games post split he's talking it down he's talking it down yeah okay fantastic to have you on for the first time I'm sure we'll have you on more in the future and that will probably depend on hearts doing as well as the possible come on boys I want to come back here it's lovely yeah brilliant okay that is another episode of the Fan Debate brought to you by Skybet

1:35:48Thank you.