City’s 115 Update, Football Turning on Fans & The Next Club at Risk | The Overlap Fan Debate

0:00Wayne Rooney: You get 25 % of your salary taken away if you didn't finish in the Champions League.

0:03Luke: So what's 25 % off£13 million a year? The average club in the Championship is losing£450 ,000 a week. If you boycott it now and you miss two games at Old Trafford, your season ticket's cancelled anyway.

0:16Wayne Rooney: The reason why people from around the world want to go to Hanfield is because of the noise and the legend of the cup. If they're not there, the tourist doesn't want to be there anyway.

0:24Luke: The Premier League cannot relegate Manchester City to League One or League Two. Every City fan will probably agree. We're just bored. We're just utterly bored of it.

0:31Jamie Carragher: We're fans. We're real. It's our life. It's our community.

0:34Luke: It's a bit like your children. You don't always like the club, but you always love them.

0:38Kieran Maguire: Your loyalty is exploited at every turn, so it's not just tickets. It's travel. It's food. It's drink. It's subscriptions to TV channels that they think they can still get away with. They are getting away with it.

0:54Wayne Rooney: Hello and welcome back to the Fan Debate brought to you by Skybet I'm joined by Wayne Rooney and our very loyal fans and our special guest this week Kieran Maguire our most popular guest in 2025 it says here hopefully be the same in 2026 from Kieran as well so welcome back to the Fan Debate Kieran and right tell us what you've been up to being busy

1:17Luke: Yeah, I'm teaching for the Professional Footballers Association. I'm teaching for the League Managers Association. I'm teaching for the Belgian League, the Dutch League, and I've got a full-time job. So very busy.

1:30Wayne Rooney: OK, so we're going to start with you where we normally start with you, on a certain club from Manchester. How is that going?

1:38Luke: Well, we had the hearing. The hearing took place over a period of around about 10 weeks. We reckon there's probably about half a million pieces of evidence that were presented by both the prosecution and the defence. The hearing finished in the second week of December, so we're now 14 months with silence. So by the cases similar to a fraud case, I think we're probably into the final reaches of getting a decision. I think part of the challenge has been that because there's three very senior people who are on the court who are making that final judgment. Getting those three together at the same time is actually very difficult, so that's delayed the case.

2:23Luke: It should be a result in the next few months, but we said this before. Pep was saying last February that he was expecting something. There's an awful lot of evidence to go through, and the charges are very, very serious, so you've got enough evidence.

2:38Wayne Rooney: I think most people are telling for you to want to do before the end of the season. Because there's been talk of City, if they were found guilty, that they could maybe be relegated for argument C. Does that come into it in terms of when they actually get to the end of their decision? Because if this happened once the season had started, how difficult is it then? Or the season hasn't finished? Would something like that come into play?

3:04Luke: No, no. The people on the commission, they are completely independent of football. So they are operating in their own little bubble. I absolutely agree. If it comes out the week before the end of the season, it would be catastrophic in many ways. From what I understand, both the Premier League and Manchester City will probably be given 24 hours notice of the verdict to allow their lawyers to go away and just check the small print of it. But then it could be at any point in time. It could be on the day of the World Cup final, for all we know. The Premier League are completely out of this because they simply ask the Commission to take place and they have no involvement at all.

3:43Luke: Listen, everybody speculates.

3:45Wayne Rooney: We wind Luke up on the show every time he comes on. But the longer this goes on,

3:52Luke: what does that make you feel about where this could actually go? Well, we've got well over 100 charges. We've got well over 115 charges when you actually go through the small print. So what happens if it's 70-50 in terms of favour of the Premier League or favour of Manchester City? Certainly when we had Manchester City themselves effectively charge the Premier League with these associated party transaction rules, both the Premier League and the club were claiming it as a victory. So trying to sort of sift that into some form of logic is going to be challenging. For example, if Manchester City are found guilty of non-cooperation, which I think is fairly likely as far as their relationship with the Premier League is concerned, they're likely to get a significant fine because that's what we saw happen with UEFA and the deductions there.

4:42Luke: If it's a points deduction, I think the Premier League will claim it as a victory. So we'll just have to wait and see.

4:49Wayne Rooney: Luke, what's the, you know, listen, Man City, the success that you've had, you know, you've been in the treble, four in a row, all this type of stuff. if it was to come down the wrong way for you in terms of guilt would that sort of tarnish any of that for you? You've still got your memories you've still been to those games are you sat there thinking oh please I really hope that we're not guilty It's not going to undo any of it for me

5:11Kieran Maguire: I don't think any fan can go back in time and take me out of that stadium but I think every City fan will probably agree we're just bored we're just utterly bored of it it's just dragged on that long Was it not you dragging it on? well Pep said when the charges came out Pep said like straight away City have been condemned or like all the talk of it we've been condemned before we've even had a result like this hearing and stuff like you're saying there's no announcement on that made so as far as we're concerned we're just bored of all the talk of it to be honest I think a lot of other fans will just be sort of anticipating what's going to go on with it it's just dragged on so long hasn't it so yeah

5:48Wayne Rooney: Wayne I think some of the charges go back to when you were playing when you were going for a title with City I think I've got that right haven't I so what I'm saying is would you look back at City as a team you know you come up against them probably when this all started the charges go back to would you look and go oh they cheated us out of a title or would you just look at it and think that was 11v11 on a football yeah no see I actually feel for the players

6:12Kieran Maguire: for the City players if it obviously if they're guilty of doing it then they deserve to be punished but it's not the players who are guilty so I feel for the players So in terms of when City won the league last day of the season and we didn't, it's not something where I'd say, oh, I want to get that Premier League medal because they've cheated the way to it. It'd be more, I hope they get the punishment now, which they deserve for doing that. It's not the players' fault, so that's where I look at it. I'm not really too fussed on when I was a player, what was going on above and what they were doing.

6:47But them players won the Premier League title

6:51Kieran Maguire: for their performances on the pitch. And that's how I see them.

6:55Wayne Rooney: Yeah, OK. All right, we've got a fan debate community question to us all here. So it's from Laura from Burnage. And what would we all consider a fair punishment if Manchester City were found guilty? Relegation. Get them gone. Transfer ban. No. I don't want them to get deducted points, especially this season. Maybe next season, but I want to win this one, fair and small.

7:19Kieran Maguire: Vegas can't be choosing, mate, do you know what I mean? They can.

7:22Luke: I think a three-year transfer round, bang.

7:24Kieran Maguire: But again, it's quite funny we're talking about this, because you're saying, if City get found guilty of what? You've just said there's well over 100 charges. You could get found guilty of one thing and 999 others are completely fine. It would have to be renovation, though. Are we talking about if everything got found guilty on everything? Is that what you're saying?

7:41Jamie Carragher: Well, like the majority, for those serious charges, because it's not just FFP, is it? it's like fraudulent, some of them borderline the charges.

7:49Wayne Rooney: We've seen teams be deducted points, haven't we? So it would just be that, but in...

7:53Kieran Maguire: If you relegate them, for me anyway, it would change the sort of dynamic of the EFL in a way that... I wouldn't say it doesn't punish them, but if you think about it, they would probably bounce straight back. Even if you put them down in League One, it's sort of a loaded deck anyway.

8:08Wayne Rooney: Some empty seats in the empty hat in League One. Did the EFL have to accept them?

8:13Kieran Maguire: No, we can only get given a points deduction that will relegate us. The Premier League aren't saying City are getting relegated, that's the punishment. They would, in theory, give us a points deduction that would just take us down.

8:23Jamie Carragher: There should be a points deduction for every season that they broke the rules, for every season. So for how many seasons they've broken the rules and that's been agreed, that's how many seasons that happens. Because it needs to be long-term. I mean, like, I've agreed with you, I feel for the players because they're the ones who played and they deserve it. And I feel for the fans because you can't control it, who I don't feel for as a club. And what about all the fans that maybe, like other teams who are competing, they're never going to get those moments that you got, Luke. Those stole, potentially.

8:53Kieran Maguire: I think the board took it away by Saki Mourinho, to be honest.

8:56Luke: Keenan, what is realistic? Well, the Premier League cannot relegate Manchester City to League One or League Two because that's an EFL decision. And Manchester City have not had any charges proven against them by the EFL. So therefore it has to be a points deduction. So if we take a look at precedents, we've had Everton and Nottingham Forest with six and four point deductions for a single offence in effect covering a three year period. The accusations against Manchester City cover a nine year period. So it's far bigger. The numbers involved, we're not certain about, but they're likely to be quite significant.

9:30Luke: So I think you have to add a zero to what we've seen in terms of Forest and Everton. So somewhere between a 40 and 60 point deduction, I think, would be on merit to be consistent with what we've seen with other decisions would make a lot of logic. If they want to go further, then we don't know the severity. In the case of both Forrest and Everton, they were to do with FFP purely. The accusations against Manchester City has already been hinted at. This is why it's taking so long. Corporate fraud is a very serious accusation. The board of directors would have to go. How can you be in a meeting room with other members of the Premier League, with the Premier League itself, of whom you're a shareholder, with this accusation being proven?

10:15Luke: And again, if you take a look at what happened with Juventus in Serie A, the Juventus board had to resign when they were claiming things about player wages which were proven to be untrue. So I think there's an honesty issue here, which would mean that if Manchester City are found guilty, and Manchester City, by the way, incredibly confident, as are the Premier League, but Manchester City are very common, then the board has to go and that could be a complete restructure of the club.

10:43Wayne Rooney: OK. Well, you mentioned Everton and Forrest there, and that's probably something that we all got used to over the last couple of years, PSR. So, Keir, can you just explain to us a little bit, so PSR is now being changed to SCR?

10:59Luke: Yeah, and to a certain extent it's same dog, different fleas, in the sense that what we have is a cost control set of rules which are to the benefit of the bigger clubs. Under Premier, under the PSR rules, you are allowed to lose£105 million over three years. With SCR, it's all focused on the players. So it's player wages and the head coach wages. So if you've got a marketing department, if you've got a finance department, if you've got a legal department, their wages are excluded. plus amortisation. Now, if you sign a player for£50 million on a five-year contract, that's£10 million a year. So that gets thrown into the pot as well.

11:42Luke: Agents fees go into and player write-downs. So you compare that to the money coming in from the club. And what you're effectively saying is that for every£100 that comes into the club, you can spend no more than£85 on all of those player-related costs.

11:57Wayne Rooney: So the clubs agreed to this, like the 20 Premier League clubs, and thought this would be a fairer and a better way.

12:04Luke: Well, 14 clubs voted for it, and that's the bare minimum. You have to have a two-thirds majority. If you take a look at the clubs that voted against, it was Bournemouth, Brentford, Palace, Brighton, Leeds and Fulham. Now, what have those clubs got in common? Those are what you might call the algorithm clubs, the middle-class clubs within the Premier League. And they use their player trading model to a greater extent to generate extra money. They feel that they're getting a raw deal. And also, the first thing that those clubs are wanting to achieve at the start of each season is to finish 17th or above.

12:42Luke: Now, the old PSR rules, they counted against Forest when they came up. Forest were only allowed to lose£61 million instead of£105 for Bournemouth, Brentford and so on. So those clubs voted against it because they wanted to have a greater advantage against the clubs which had just been promoted. Everybody's acting in terms of self-interest. Is this better for the game? What it's getting changed to now? I don't think it is, because if you're an aspirational club, if you're an ambitious club, the likes of Newcastle United and Aston Villa, they've got rich owners. You could even say Forest. You could even say Everton with their new owners.

13:17Luke: They can, you know, if you qualify for the Champions League, realistically, you're potentially getting the extra£100 million. That means you can spend an extra£85 million on wages. So it's gained against those clubs who want to join the big six, and it does count against them, in exactly the same way that PSR does.

13:38Wayne Rooney: Last time you were on, you said there was one club very close to breaking PSR rules.

13:44Luke: I did, yes. And I did say, sorry, Roy, Rory stressed out for a couple of nights about this. I did say that they play in blue. It was Leicester City. I did know that Leicester were, based on my calculations, likely to be charged and likely to lose that. And we have seen Leicester end up with a six-point deduction in the EFL Championship with potentially further charges later this season from the EFL as well. Yeah, I mean, is there anyone at risk at the moment? I think there's a chance that Villa could be in breach of the UEFA rules. Both Villa and Chelsea breached the UEFA rules at the start of the season.

14:27Luke: and they've had to go and follow a very, very strict business plan. There's a danger of Villa failing that again, which could mean they'll get another fine rather than the points to die.

14:38Wayne Rooney: So it was Villa and Chelsea and Villa could get a fine. Does that mean Chelsea have found another loophole, Rory? Hopefully. I mean, all that stuff, I just find it so murky. I know that it's beneficial and on some level it's quite creative and clever, but it's hateful, isn't it? selling yourself a hotel, selling yourself a women's team or whatever. Do you think they could clamp down on that sort of behaviour?

15:03Luke: Well, those particular issues were prohibited under the UEFA rules, but they were allowed at the start of the season under the Premier League rules. Now, under SCR, you cannot include sales of women's team, real estate, other unusual assets to yourself. So the Premier League has come more in line with the UEFA rules. although again it was a struggle to get that through because I think we've seen both Aston Villa and Everton both sell their women's team to themselves over the course of the last 12 months. It's within the rules, it's perfectly acceptable.

15:39Wayne Rooney: Adam, can I ask you about Manchester United? I think in terms of bringing revenue in, probably the biggest in the Premier League and probably have been for a long time now, but missing out on European football, got to fight for Champions League football this season. I mean do you worry that like if this sort of continues for the next couple of years that that will have a real hit on you in terms of you know buying players you know wages players coming in

16:06Kieran Maguire: yeah I think it's only so long that you can keep creating those kind of revenues that keep you competing with the top teams plus if you look at the ideas that they have for the club we're going to need to spend a lot more money so I think and I kind of hate the way we look at it obviously I want to be in Champions League because I want to go to Champions League games at Old Trafford but as a fan now you're starting to go that money will be really good for what we want to do in the future as well. And I think you looked at Liverpool last season, they finished top of the Champions League group, made over£100 million.

16:32Kieran Maguire: And it was massive for the summer that they had following. And then you look at the money that these teams are making now. I think Arsenal finishing top of the group as well. So it's massively important you get in there. And once you get in there, I mean, Spurs, I think, finished in the... Do you finish in the top eight? Four. You know, the English teams are going to dominate and obviously create more revenue. so yes as a fan I want to see United in there but also there is that financial thing and there's going to be only so long that we can survive with these glazenomics and we used to get pay cut when you didn't make Champions League so you get 25 % of your salary taken away if you didn't finish

17:09Wayne Rooney: in the Champions League so that was every player so what's 25 % off 13 million a year? 7 % I was at 17

17:22Kieran Maguire: you get 25 % of your salary taken away from me that's the manager players coaches trying to obviously stick in line so United was trying to stick within the rules obviously but I just think it's all it's brought in to stop teams going bust wasn't it and I had a derby and seeing the effect of decisions getting made to try and gain that little edge and of course you want your club to do well but these decisions just to try and get that little edge and then when you get caught doing it, the impact that that has and trying to pick up the people, people losing their jobs, not being able to... Seeing that first hand, it was not nice to be around so I think you have to live within the rules but I do think the rules now are made for the teams at the top and for the teams below to try and catch them up.

18:16Wayne Rooney: I think it's impossible. Well, Dan, I want to come to you on the back of that. I mean, you're probably the one team over the last couple of years who've really, you know, punched above your weight, if you like, in what you've done and got into European football. But do these sort of rules pay aside or what has changed you now? Does that prevent teams like Palace fully competing?

18:33Kieran Maguire: Well, as far as I'm aware, and Kieran can correct me if I'm wrong, I mean, he mentioned the clubs that voted against it. I would call them the squeezed middle in many senses. You know, you've got the teams that have the revenue streams at the very top. You've got the teams coming up to the prem that can invest new money, as it was. But for us, you know, you look at the season we've, what we're still going through, Eze went for big money. We had to sell Mark Gay because his contract was running down. Michael Alise went for 50 before that. But if we don't do it, there's no real way of us competing and continuing to be an upwardly mobile club.

19:07Kieran Maguire: You know, you're already talking about Adam Walton potentially moving on, Daniel Munoz potentially moving on. Because, I mean, we've spent big in January, yes, but it's just not really available to us unless we sell, particularly with the SCR with 85%. You know, we have a 25 ,000-ceter stadium, got no real corporate revenue. We can't just go and sign a sponsorship deal that's 15 million a year. And if we do fall foul of it, you end up with points deductions and potentially going down. So I don't really... Obviously, we're in a very privileged position compared to most football fans. We're sitting there in the Premier League, we're in Europe, we've won the FA Cup, it's fantastic.

19:39Kieran Maguire: But I do feel that the last few months in particular, have sort of shown that there is not even a glass ceiling, it's a concrete ceiling in many senses, because your squad gets picked apart, you can't get players to sign new contracts unless they've got release clauses in. And we understand our place in the pecking order, but you can't do what Blackburn did before because you can't spend that level of money unless there was a complete bolt from the blue. And look at them now, the bottom three of the championship. So I don't really know.

20:09Wayne Rooney: Hello and welcome back to Shot on Target, brought to you by Skybest. So this is how the game's going to work. It's Wayne, me and Wayne versus the fans. So you're going to have a little spin of that, Waz. And we're going to provide a player that has got the closest amount of Premier League games for Man United next to that number. So go ahead, give it a spin.

20:34Wayne Rooney: How expensive.

20:37Kieran Maguire: You're a bit lighter next time.

20:43Wayne Rooney: Jesus.

20:47Wayne Rooney: That's easy. Come on, Ad, you're captain. 25. 25. Look at him, straight in.

20:56Kieran Maguire: Yeah, yeah, with no info. Tevez played more than once, isn't he? Well done, you did well then. I think he does. Is it the season?

21:07Wayne Rooney: Contribute, or?

21:08Kieran Maguire: I've got the answer. I said the answer. We got one.

21:10Wayne Rooney: We got it.

21:11Kieran Maguire: I know

21:12Wayne Rooney: that's probably what we thought but you're not the captain Ellie's the captain

21:16Jamie Carragher: oh okay Brian and Boomer

21:19Wayne Rooney: we were going to actually say that didn't we so you've told what we've caused haven't you we've been signed this season but he went to AFCON didn't he oh yes

21:28Jamie Carragher: how many games are we that's a little well done so are you

21:33Wayne Rooney: are they locked in yet or no no I don't think we're locked in I'm not sure yet hang on we're locked in we're locked in we're locked in we're locked in 26 games There's 12 left, so 26, but he went to AFCON. Yeah, and he went to AFCON's all together.

21:44Jamie Carragher: It would have been like three. So then that's 23. Are we locking in in Buma?

21:48Wayne Rooney: I'm aiming for bail. No, no, no. I think you are like yours. What, Mike Lohan? Yeah. That's just...

21:55Kieran Maguire: Can we lock it in? We're going to lock in, all right?

21:56Jamie Carragher: Whenever you say anything, I trust you. Mike Lohan.

21:59Kieran Maguire: Mike Lohan.

22:00Jamie Carragher: We're locking in, Mike Lohan. We're locking in, yeah? No, no, no. We're signing all nine.

22:05Kieran Maguire: We need to make a call. I'll have to blow the whistle. Don't have to do it. When did he leave? Can we get... I've got a fucking whistle. I've got a whistle now. The last time. Are your logs all right?

22:23Jamie Carragher: You have not come to...

22:24Kieran Maguire: Which one?

22:28Jamie Carragher: Is Michael Owen closer than...

22:30Kieran Maguire: Fans, who are we locking in? We're going to lock in Michael Owen. Right, OK. Michael Owen locked in by the fans Are we more confident about that

22:40Jamie Carragher: I reckon he's got 22

22:44Kieran Maguire: I've locked in Who've they locked in Michael Owen

22:50Wayne Rooney: Michael Owen We didn't He locked in Michael Owen

22:55Kieran Maguire: Ellie's captain Ellie's captain Ellie Ellie No no no No, you're not doing it. Ellie, say your name.

23:07Jamie Carragher: Right, we've got like four answers here. Am I going to have to go for the final one?

23:10Kieran Maguire: Yeah, Ellie. Don't say mine. Don't say mine. No, because then I'm throwing you under the bus.

23:15Jamie Carragher: I'm sticking with Mbumo for safety. For safety!

23:18Kieran Maguire: It's five shots.

23:19Jamie Carragher: It's safety.

23:19Kieran Maguire: It's got to be close. It's close. All the real there, lads. In the grand scheme of people. I think we've got to.

23:25Jamie Carragher: Hang on a minute.

23:27Kieran Maguire: Personally, I think we've got to.

23:28Jamie Carragher: I don't think this isn't a very good team.

23:30Wayne Rooney: Are you going to blow the whistle for them as well? Okay, we're going to go for the goalie.

23:35Kieran Maguire: Which one? Sen. Who? Lemons. He never started at the beginning of the season. Nah, that's a terrible shout. I'm aware of that.

23:41Wayne Rooney: But he didn't go to AFCON either, did he? Yeah, he didn't.

23:44Kieran Maguire: I would have said Tesco. Yeah, Tesco's not a bad thing. He didn't say start, did he? It's very close. Oh, here we go. Extremely close. One between you. So both those players have played... Very close. It's 25 games. but it's the fans 21 of 32 come on what was Cesco is it like I contributed

24:07Jamie Carragher: you did well

24:09Kieran Maguire: you did the final decision I want to know what the others are Cesco's played 21 times as well United so it would have been a draw ok so 1-0 to them so 1-0 to the fans yeah I played 1-6 they just keep going they just keep going isn't he 40 on that yeah Where's that's just going? That's going quicker. I know. It's going back. Oh, 342 appearances. Oh, my God, I've got an unreal one. Is this just Premier League? Premier League. How many seasons have you been in Premier League? It's 70, isn't it? Shut up.

24:51Jamie Carragher: You know what?

24:53Kieran Maguire: That's matching 380s. Nicky back to the day to the day. He'll go see what he plays. who was the other go on then fans lock it in

25:03Jamie Carragher: what are we going with

25:06Kieran Maguire: way more if it's 10 seasons

25:09Jamie Carragher: that's maximum 380 Premier League appearances

25:11Kieran Maguire: yeah but Bruno he's only 11 is it he said Bruno when he signed him

25:14Jamie Carragher: is my mouth no don't question my mouth

25:18Kieran Maguire: he's got an answer let's lock something in here we go yeah yeah Yeah, we have... We have to look in the hair. Neil Lunds, yeah. Look in the hair. Oh, no. That's overshot, that. That's foreign. Do we ever go first at this? I know, that's what I was thinking. You can do it. If I'm going to overshot, I'm not going to go to Skulls. Right, yeah. Ready for your answer? You're the captain. That was our one.

25:45Jamie Carragher: I think I've been overridden here. No, no, no. Can you just shout it out? It's not Nicky Bot.

25:50Kieran Maguire: If it is now... No, if it is, yeah. Can we lock in? We've... We've given him more clues.

25:54Wayne Rooney: Wait, who did you pick?

25:56Kieran Maguire: Who? Thing is, I think we've overshadowed by 10%. You're all massively undermining, Captain.

26:02Wayne Rooney: I'm the only one who has any respect for my captain. Shall we lock in an answer? Cass, you've given it on. Shall we lock in an answer?

26:11Kieran Maguire: Shall we? No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Shall we give it an answer?

26:15Jamie Carragher: I want to know now.

26:18Kieran Maguire: We're locking in Andreas. It's a bit late now, isn't it? We've locked in. We've got my cat. Who? Carrick, right? Nice, yeah. Battle retire. Ten seasons. Could be Carrick. I don't spend this life. No, that's not enough, surely. Rashford wasn't 10 years. How old did you start playing in 2015? It's 10 years. It works out for nine seasons, exactly.

26:38Jamie Carragher: Doesn't it? So I can tell you... It has been nine seasons played every game, so...

26:42Kieran Maguire: You guys got it right. Michael Carrick, 316 appearances, whereas De Gea did 415 appearances. How many... What about...

26:52Jamie Carragher: I would just like to ask Can we spin again, Waz?

26:54Kieran Maguire: We spin again and it's one all Can we go and we can go first Can you stop I think We need to

27:03Kieran Maguire: I've got hang on a minute Do you want me to stop? Let's go Do you know how many appearances you've got in the Premier League In Premier League? Don't tell you I can't No, it's probably that Four Three No, it's going near the line Oh Oh! Oh! This isn't great, this wheel is it? That's 180! 180! 180! Jumbo jumbo! Hey! Clever, sir! Could be! It's impossible now! Now we're in that ballpark! Now we're in that ballpark! I was shorted by 180!

27:37Wayne Rooney: It's like that broken clock theory! That broken clock theory!

27:40Kieran Maguire: If you say Alex Butner again... 180... No, no! You've luck and goal first! Bottom left! He just told me he's thinking about it! 30 seconds, Garrett! There's one player who has got 180 appearances. There's one player who's got... Yeah, there is one who's currently on 180 appearances in the Premier League. Oh, currently?

27:57Wayne Rooney: Oh, currently. I think I'm going to go with our one. OK. OK. Because he said currently as well. He's a current player. I'm going to go Harry Maguire. Oh, no. I said that.

28:11Kieran Maguire: He's a current player. I reckon Harry Maguire's got 240. OK, that's locked in. 210. If you spin it again on 210, you're going to do whatever. It's a stab in the dark.

28:23Jamie Carragher: That means he has to go and play half.

28:26Kieran Maguire: Funs, we're going to lock... Can I lock in? What is that? You're going to lock in. Nicky Butt. No, no. Luke Shaw. Comic time, I thought that was decent. Luke Shaw? Luke Shaw. Yeah. Nick Powell. Luke Shaw, we're going for it. Him saying probably is absolutely probably... You can't lock in, then change it. We haven't We've locked in Impressively You nailed it 180 Yes Luke Shaw Was 224 I apologise 224 Premier League games United I'm sorry 180 No Give the boy credit It's a bad start

29:06Wayne Rooney: Well The pundits are the winners Of the game And Thanks to Sky I'll see you soon

29:18Wayne Rooney: Have you ever dunked a custard cream in an English breakfast tea with milk in? Has anyone ever done that? Why have they got leaf blower? That is him!

29:25Kieran Maguire: But we've been cool. Big Fred. Unbelievable. Gary Neville, grow a proper muzzy or shave it off, you scruff.

29:37Wayne Rooney: He just said 4-3-3 before that.

29:40Kieran Maguire: Ça va! Hello, hello, hello. We're going to start Andrew on two and a half. Can't wait.

29:48Luke: That's what he wants. Give him what he wants.

30:18Wayne Rooney: Ellie, your team spent a lot of money in the summer. But the big boys, like you look at Sutter United the last few years, hasn't gone well, but they can still spend in the summer. Is that sort of what frustrates you now? You'd be in a position maybe with the rules where you can't then maybe have another go and try and rectify what's probably been a poor season so far?

30:37Jamie Carragher: Yeah, 100%. I mean, these rules were brought in and it has now created a benefit. That's why we have the big six. Ultimately, with all due respect, not every member of the Big Six deserves to be there based on merit. I mean, well, yeah. And you look in the history of when we started coining the term Big Six. It was about 2010, 2011 when we started using that phrase. It still doesn't add up based on merit. And we're talking about commercial value, but football isn't just about business. Football is community. And you ask every football fan in this room right now, it's so much more. And you know, obviously, everything that happened with Derby.

31:14Jamie Carragher: how hugely important it is. And it's so frustrating when these rules exist where already established Premier League clubs, already with squads worth hundreds of millions, and then the previous rules, as we well know, when you get promoted, you're not even allowed to lose as much as them. What chance do you have? Where's the competition? Where is the football? How can we enjoy the Premier League when it's so, so dull? It's the same teams year in, year out because they are allowed to. And the rules previously were very ambiguous, very ambiguous. It was never certain exactly what would happen, when it would happen.

31:52Jamie Carragher: They were brought in supposedly for sustainability to stop clubs going into administration, and rightfully so. But when you look at it, it was just so wrong that we got...

32:03Kieran Maguire: Is that what you get from it? Is that why they came in or was the inception from something else? No, no. How did they come about?

32:09Luke: It was Chelsea under Roman Abramovich was a disruptor, changed football. Manchester City did the same under Sheikh Mansour. The existing elite clubs, and that's not just in the Premier League, the existing elite clubs within Europe as well, they didn't want, PSG were a potential threat to those clubs that were used to automatically qualifying for the Champions League and automatically winning the trophies. So the aim was to stop another Chelsea, another PSG, another Manchester City. And that's why it's very frustrating for fans of Villa and Forrest and Newcastle. You're on the wrong side of history.

32:41Luke: You know, 2013, that's when the portcullis came down, and that's prevented a new owner. If somebody's worth billions of pounds and wants to spend it on a football club and says, tell you what, I'm going to guarantee it. I'm going to put this much money aside into a bank account with the Premier League. That guarantees the wages for the next three years. Well, why shouldn't they?

33:00Kieran Maguire: Well, I mean, I would argue that there's a potential political motive to this money coming in, that by having this portcullis come down saves the league from being sports-washed. Well, that's a by-product of why these rules came in. It doesn't matter if that's what you think or not. That's not why the rules came in. That's a good thing. You want to protect the Premier League from being... I'm just saying that's not why the rules... It's not a reservation, though, is it?

33:21Luke: Newcastle were acquired in 2021. Yeah. So that was from a... And they haven't been able to use that club to maximise their political gains. They've been in the Champions League two years out of the last three, which would not have occurred had it not been for the new owners. If they'd had unlimited spending, then surely they would have won the league by now. Well, they would have had spectacular losses.

33:42Kieran Maguire: Look, a Liverpool span now.

33:43Wayne Rooney: Are you surprised with Newcastle that they haven't been a little bit? We saw loads of players not cheater, mate. Are you surprised that Newcastle haven't been a little bit, clever isn't the word, a little bit more creative with their accounting? Like in the way that, why is St James' Park not called the Saudi Airlines Arena? Or something like that?

34:01Luke: Well, I think the new stadium could be called that. I think they've done everything that they can do. Certainly there were eyebrows raised at both the front of shirt deal. They've been for training camps to do exhibition matches in Saudi Arabia. So I think they've taken it as far as they can. They know that they are under so much scrutiny that one small step out of line and the Premier League will jump on them. So I think they've pushed it to the limit but have not gone over the line. Villa feel like that club to me where I think if I was a Villa fan,

34:32Wayne Rooney: every time they feel like they're getting really close, they just can't make that next step. And is that just basically down to the way football is now, the rules that a team like an Aston Villa, probably similar size to Newcastle. Newcastle have obviously got the PIF or the Saudi fund. Is Villa almost a team who the rules are basically stopping them now, trying to really go for it? Because they've probably got one of the best managers they've ever had, probably the last two or three seasons being as good as what they've had for a long time, probably going back to the early 80s.

35:04Luke: Yeah, if you take a look at the two owners, you've got Wes Edens, who's an American billionaire. You've got Naz Saweris, the richest man in Egypt. So they've got the money to put into Villa. You have to grow a club over a period of time, but we saw with both Chelsea under Abramovich and City, you can attach rocket boosters, and then the club can, on the back of that, grow and be sustainable. Villa having to operate with one hand tied behind their back, it was great that they have done so well in the league. It's great that they have got into the Champions League and into Europe in the last couple of seasons.

35:39Luke: But we've seen this year, they've already had a fine from UEFA. They had to switch players around in terms of one in, one out, as far as the player trading model was concerned, which meant that they couldn't compete as much as they wanted. and they are struggling, even though they've got the capacity with the owner's wealth to spend more, the rules prevent them from doing so. And it is frustrating.

36:09Wayne Rooney: Kieran, can I ask you about the World Cup? That's been a big talking point around the price of tickets around that. So, I mean, how will that ever end? When will it ever get back to feeling normal, like a price of a ticket at an international tournament? Is that long gone? Will that ever happen again?

36:29Luke: That ship's very much sailed under Infantino's version of what he wants FIFA to be. There is no doubt that he has compared the pricing structure for the FIFA World Cup this summer to how much you'd expect to pay in the NFL, how much you spend for an NBA game. When I go to the States, I've ended up paying ridiculous amounts of money simply because I've just wanted to see something. and his view is that it should be an experience rather than for those members of the team here, dedicated England fans that have done Albania away, that have done Finland away and all of these hard yards. That counts for nothing as far as FIFA are concerned.

37:10Luke: It's really disappointing that we've heard absolutely nothing from the Football Association in terms of the pricing for fans of individuals. So you think the FA should be on the front foot and going after FIFA?

37:21Wayne Rooney: Or like, call on these people out. Well, what's the FA there for? The FA are guilty of it themselves, or it's in a price of Wembley?

37:29Luke: It's very different with UEFA.

37:30Wayne Rooney: It's very different with UEFA. UEFA, the pricing with UEFA, it's expensive, but it's rationally expensive. What's happening with FIFA, it's just unbelievable. Like, there's a couple of things that they do. If England make it to the World Cup final, top cappers, people who have done Malta away, They've done every single possible game that you can do with England. What's wrong with Moulton away?

37:57Wayne Rooney: The letter's lovely. But they've done every single one that you could possibly do. The absolute top, four and a half grand for the final. If England make it to the final, but then the worst bit, and I don't understand how people aren't talking about this. Kieran, I'm sure you know more about this, but if you want to follow England to the World Cup final, what happens is you have to pay every round. You have to buy your tickets up until the final. And obviously there's going to be loads of people from England doing that, paying all of this money into FIFA. If you're French, Spanish, Argentinian, whatever, you're going to pay all this money as if England get to the final.

38:30Wayne Rooney: If England don't get to the final, you get your money back, minus a 15 % handling fee. It's bonkers. Is it just one person's decision? Is it just Infantino's position? Is there no majority vote or anything like that?

38:43Luke: is just him making these outrageous, unrealistic prices? Well, because Infantino has been reappointed as the president, he's acting as if he's the emperor. Even in terms of the secondary market, FIFA is now the official FIFA ticket tout for tickets, and it's charging 15 % to the buyer and 15 % to the seller. So if I'd got a ticket for Cape Verde versus Norway and I couldn't go for whatever reason because flight prices are high, hotel prices are high, then you can only sell it back through the FIFA official resale model and they're taking money there. So they've realised it's a huge opportunity to make money for FIFA and the disconnect, I think, between FIFA and football fans has never been greater.

39:34Jamie Carragher: Can I just say as well, though, this wasn't the case at the Qatar World Cup. I went to the Qatar World Cup and the ticket prices were fair. There are other criticisms, I'm not saying there isn't, but this USA World Cup, the prices are ridiculous. I paid like£60 for tickets. The most expensive ticket I bought in Qatar was£210, and that was by choice because I was like, oh, it's Wales, I'm going to treat myself. And this is just ridiculous.

39:57Wayne Rooney: The final in Qatar, the final via England was a grand. It's four and a half in America. So why that big jump of a four? And do you think, I mean, are these tickets selling well?

40:11Luke: The tickets for the host nations are selling well. Tickets for the big European countries and the big South American countries, they will sell very well. It's a cultural issue. In America, it is the land of opportunity. And that's why we've seen and FIFA are claiming record interest as far as applications for tickets are concerned, because you've got bots, you've got touts, you've got organised crime, all buying tickets because they know they can resell and they can make a huge amount of money on the back of that. So it's become a self-fulfilling prophecy. It's not dissimilar to what we saw with Oasis tickets.

40:46Luke: You know, it's dynamic pricing. And as far as FIFA and the United States authorities are concerned, that is the norm. I think we've got very much sort of a European and an English mentality towards this, which because we are built, we are brought up on going following our teams home and away all season. And yes, it costs us all money, but even so, it's within reasonable parameters. Because FIFA want one person to go to one match because they've seen a World Cup match, they've bought as much merchandise as possible. It will maximise revenues for FIFA. And this is what's happening at Chelsea.

41:19Wayne Rooney: This is what's happening in the Premier League as well. It's the same model. At Chelsea, the worst person in the world is a season ticket holder brought into the club. They want somebody who's on a day trip from Texas to go and spend a fortune in a club shop and then go to one game a year. Have a tour. Gareth, you've been quite prominent on this show and what you do on your podcast and different things about fighting for supporters to get cheaper ticket prices. You've spoken to MPs about it as well. Where are you with the World Cup? Have you got anything you want to ask Kieran?

41:53Kieran Maguire: Not so much on the World Cup because I think it's sort of being covered there. But in terms of the Premier League, the network of people that speak to the clubs, that represent fans, that have helped to produce this document, Stop Exploiting Loyalty, which is what we took to Parliament. That campaign's ongoing and we're all trying to get the message across to our clubs that we think with the current broadcast deal, there's plenty of revenue coming into clubs. Liverpool got mentioned before, Liverpool have got£702 million, I think, according to the Deloitte Money League. Now, what we're hearing across the network of fans is a lot of worrying signs that a lot of the clubs, like Brighton have already gone, I think, but a lot of the other clubs are going to follow in terms of putting the ticket prices up once again.

42:41Kieran Maguire: And what we're worried is that clubs want that to become the norm and that we just sort of, we go away, if you like, and that every year we just cop for the fact that our ticket prices go up and up and up and up until you can no longer go. Now, what I know from fans who do go regularly home and away and that kind of thing is that, you know, their wages aren't going up at the same level. You've got clubs quoting your costs, clubs quoting your inflation. Well, wages aren't following those things. And also, costs are going up for us. Our lechie's gone up, our gas has gone up, our shopping basket's gone up.

43:14Kieran Maguire: You know, everything, as a footy fan as well, your loyalty is exploited at every turn. So it's not just tickets, it's travel, it's food, it's drink, it's subscriptions to TV channels that aren't about there being another one next season on top of Amazon Sky, TNT and whatever. so everywhere you turn it gets harder and harder to do the thing you've always done and Ciarán said about our culture here is home and away going every game supporting your club through the wind and rain and all the rest of it for us clubs should value that clubs should recognise that that's the point of difference about English football is the passionate stadiums it's not people politely clapping and eating popcorn it's scarves, flags, songs kicking off a little bit they're being a bit of an edge to the grounds.

44:03Kieran Maguire: And, you know, I'm sure we've all been to football elsewhere around the world where it isn't that. There's people waving little white handkerchiefs and stuff and politely clapping, and that's their culture and that's our own. But ours, like I say, the points are different. The thing that makes it a good TV product as well is all that side of it. So it's almost trying to say constantly, you know, you're killing the golden goose here. And my question to Kieran would be sort of, you know, as an economist, academic, someone who's constantly sort of, you know, understands the football finances, if you like.

44:37Kieran Maguire: When you've got someone like me who's campaigning and advocating from a fan side, and then you've got someone who works at a club who's only thinking about revenue, what would you do if you were, you know, referee in that fight? How would you stop us continually clashing heads season after season?

44:54Luke: Well, I'd point out that during COVID, we had this... The Premier League always says, oh, football's nothing without fans. Well, we had football without fans. I loved it. And it was watching a training exercise. What fans do and what real fans do, and I'm not being snidey towards those people that have come from overseas who want... Because for them, it's a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. I absolutely get that. Football fans turn a piece of architecture into a living, breathing organism, and that is great for the TV audiences. And I think it's great for the game as a whole. I think the problem you will be coming up against, and I suspect you've already come up against it, is that the clubs will say, if we take a look at the takeover by Ineos of Manchester United in terms of operations, Manchester United are now generating an extra£50 million a year in ticket income compared to where we were pre-COVID.

45:50Luke: They will say, well, 85 % of£50 million, that's what,£44-45 million. that goes into the player budget. You want us to sign players and they will use PSR and SCR. They will use all of these things to try to browbeat fans to make you feel guilty for saying, well, hold on. I've got 40, I've got 50 years of sometimes some pretty rubbish football. Now their attitude is stay in your lane. You should be grateful for where you are. I've worked with West Ham fans, with Spurs fans. If you reach my age, now you've got to be 67 before you can have a deduction as a senior. And by the way, all those boys and girls that you've been sat with for the last 20 years, we're going to stick all the seniors away from the people.

46:40Luke: And again, you've got that little community. I don't know what they do for a day job, but when I go to a match, those people around me, I've been doing it for years upon end. And you're losing that and you're losing part of the identity and the history and the heritage and part of the reason why the game is part of us.

47:01Wayne Rooney: It was what it was. The Football History Podcast produced by the Overland is now on Patreon, where subscribers can get access to loads more content. Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper have a World Cup countdown series where every Wednesday go back through each World Cup in order. A deep insight into how the tournament shaped the game. On top of the main episode every Tuesday, you get at least two more episodes every week. plus the chance to get involved with a Q &A with Rob and Jonathan. The link is in the bio. Please check it out.

47:37Wayne Rooney: Wayne, are you worried a little bit about, you know, you've played, obviously, the Premier League, one of the superstars of the Premier League. You've also played in the MLS as well. You've been over there as well. Can you understand that sort of price difference between what we are as sort of football fans? Listen, you were a young Everton fan going to the game with your dad. But then in MLS, they sort of maybe see it a little bit differently in terms of Americans and what price they pay.

48:01Kieran Maguire: Yeah, the price they pay in the States, for instance, is... I had a box at Old Trafford when I was a player and a box at Audi Field, which was DC United Stadium. And it cost me more for the one at DC United Stadium, for the box there, which... I was thinking, what was going on here? It was like, the box weren't great, but it cost me more there. so the prices of tickets over there whether that's for NFL, basketball everything is a lot higher so I think culturally that's what it is like there where in England the ticket price is going up and I think you've made the great point I was playing during COVID and it was the weirdest thing I've ever been involved in and if anything showed why football needs the football clubs or the Premier League Championship whatever needs the fans it was that and then I think there was panic because they didn't know what to do, the TV stations, and then they started putting the fake noise on to put the fans in there, which was stupid.

49:01Kieran Maguire: But I just think being a fan growing up and football being my life as a child, remembering what it was like for me to be a fan, a passionate fan going to the games, to where it is now, it's crazy. And when a flip then went into management, then you're getting all these commercial teams and sponsors coming in and they're coming in 10 minutes before trying to come into the dressing 10 minutes before you're kicking off and doing your team talk and I remember walking out onto the pitch at Old Trafford with a little kid who was dressed as Avatar oh yeah and and there was different like superheroes along the and then they were asking us to put the the like jackets on of these different superheroes and you're like what is going on so I think football is it is getting Americanised in terms of I think I heard I don't know if it's true or it's going to happen the half time games in the World Cup they're going to stretch the half time out to have shows on and stuff like that which is crazy I think it's what I was saying before I think rugby that might help the sport where I think with football you have to remember this was a game which you know normal working class people could do anywhere you can go and watch it you can go and play it now it's getting it's getting further and further away and I don't know I'm as interested as all you listening to what's going on because it's taking it to a point now where I think fans are getting fed up fans are getting fed up and they're not going to they're going to stop going

50:45Wayne Rooney: Luke you've been quite outspoken about City and obviously there's always that talk isn't there about City and maybe the atmosphere there and empty seats and things like that but what's the mood like in the Etihad now?

51:01Kieran Maguire: Yeah I think there's a lot of people concerned about and it's you know there's a lot of people that have raised similar issues at other clubs I think it is like a country wide problem so many times you know somebody's ill last minute somebody's got a work commitment somebody can't make the game and you're just trying to give you're not even asking for any money you know the clubs have these like things in place to stop your tickets out and selling tickets on for your own personal gain or whatever but often you know your mum, your dad somebody can't make the game and you're just like who can go who's got a mate that wants a ticket just give it for free give it for face value whatever it is and you just can't even pass a ticket on anymore it's like you've got to jump through 15 hoops just to give your mate a ticket that you've already bought do you know what I mean so I don't think this is a problem just at one club I think it's a problem across the country and I think it is a way of maybe trying to you know increase revenue new streams even just by a little sliver.

51:50Kieran Maguire: But I think it's killing the game because you think about those opportunities. You think about when somebody says, oh, when did he go to your first game? Oh, it was five or six. My brother couldn't make it. It's these knock-on effects and it's whose little kid or little daughter, little son or brother or whatever can't go to a game now because of that. And what's the knock-on effect going to be of that? And I think it's quite worrying, to be honest. I think it's quite worrying as well because even if you can get your son a ticket that's five or six, it's hard to even get one sat next to you if you've got a season ticket.

52:23Kieran Maguire: There's so many problems like this that are maybe not being talked about enough, to be honest. So, yeah, it's sad and I think it is a country-wide issue.

52:31Wayne Rooney: The thing is as well, you know this pursuit of the one-time experienced football fan? The reason they want to go is because of the season ticket holders that make a racket every week. The reason that it's worth going to Anfield, The reason why people from around the world want to go to Anfield is because of the noise and the legend of the cop. The reason that there is a noise and a legend in the cop is because of the people that go there week in, week out, probably an inherited tribalism from them. The reason that they make all that noise is because it's who they are. And the reason that people want to witness it is because it's legendary.

53:05Wayne Rooney: If they're not there, the tourist doesn't want to be there anyway.

53:07Kieran Maguire: We get emails and messages from people in America through our podcast saying, what do we do? How do we experience the most authentic fan-based experience? It's not what time should we arrive at the stadium, where should we sit in the stadium, it's what pubs do we go to? What's your routine? What do you do? We want to do that. Well, the fascination from abroad is of Premier League football, and I think there's an assumption that isn't that. It's the club shop, and it's how many hours can they get them in the Tottenham Hotspur Stadium and trap them there to drain them as much money as possible. And if you're a season ticket holder at Spurs, you pay a certain amount of money wherever you sit.

53:46Kieran Maguire: If you can't make it and you put it on the exchange and it's like a Category A game for, say, Liverpool or Arsenal, you don't get the full amount of that ticket returned to you. You get the mean fee for each ticket across the state. So the club are making maybe 40 quid on the ticket that they've already sold to the season ticket holder and they would much rather 10 ,000 season ticket holders not turn up and have 10 ,000 tourists who would for that game.

54:12Wayne Rooney: That's happening everywhere. Do you know what I couldn't believe at Chelsea, what they've managed to monetise now? They've managed to actually make this a profitable experience. When I was a kid, I remember I've got the book, you could wait to get a signature. And I remember we played Newcastle in the Cup and I've got Terry McDermott, Les Ferdinand, Keith Gillespie. They were all getting off the coach signing. You know, if you want to do that now at Chelsea, it doesn't exist like it used to. You used to just be able to loiter outside the East Stand. It's now become this kind of, like, gated thing where there's, like, a red...

54:43Wayne Rooney: It's a blue carpet. But the kids that are waiting there have bought tickets to wait to get the autograph. Like, imagine... You've paid money to get Benoit Badia-Shile's autograph. It's, like, mental. Yeah, but there's too many... There's too many nutters around now for that to happen, mate.

54:58Kieran Maguire: But that's what the club uses as an excuse. It's like with this tout and stuff, oh, we need to stop the touts so they become the touts. Oh, we need to stop... We need to think about the safety of... What about you with a holly, mate? You with Ali, mate, weren't you one of those guys waiting for a manager back in the day? Yeah, I used to, but nowadays you get a lot of creepy people

55:16Wayne Rooney: that won't leave them alone. You don't want to do that anymore. Back in the day, before I was born, it was respect. No, but those creepy people are usually people that go home and away every game. We pay their salary, I'm sorry.

55:26Jamie Carragher: They're millionaires. Get over it. If a kid wants an autograph, give it to them. Yeah, but we've seen that video. Right, hang on a minute. When's the last time that happened? Security doesn't exist. Police don't exist. There's no police. There's other ways of managing it. And there's excuses being used just to tell us why loyal fans, they don't want us. They don't want loyal fans. We're cheaper. We're worse behaved. We're not just going to sit pretty and clap. We're fans. We're real. It's our life. It's our community. These are just excuses and we can't give in to them. And I think, I don't think it is a country ride issue.

55:56Jamie Carragher: I think it's a Premier League issue. The championship, I don't want to go back down. I don't want to jinx it. Oh my God, the atmosphere was so good. I miss it. The banter between stands. We were actually singing. You go to, no offence, and you're not going to like this. go to Anfield, I'm sorry, it's dry. You can hear things through the tannoy. All we hear, we go, Chelsea, Arsenal, sing a song. And it's because it's just Taurus. And it is just Taurus. We are the product. We pay the wages at the end of the day. I know literally it's not us, but why do broadcasters want to broadcast football? Because there are fans.

56:30Jamie Carragher: Without fans, there is no football. But Championship fans are getting ripped off as well

56:33Kieran Maguire: because Premier League fans came together, campaigned and got the cap for the away ticket. but you haven't got that in the Championship. And so in the Championship, fans are paying more to go to away games than fans are in the Premier League. And they've got more of them as well. Yeah, yeah. They've got more of them. But, you know, that has been in place now, that away cap, for 10 years now. And that came about because fans started boycotting the games. They came together. There was the 20's plenty campaign. And, OK, that wasn't achieved, but they got 30 pounds. But, you know, every time now, it does get renewed.

57:05Kieran Maguire: Every time we're all looking at it thinking, you know, Will Richard Masters, Et L, and all the people around the league say, no, this is the year where we'll scrap it. But I think they know what the reaction would be. And I think all there is with home tickets is they think they can still get away with it. That's the impression I get. But just on that, they are getting away with it. They are getting away with it. And that's what they say. We're filling our ground. But then unless there's action which is taken from fans, which does boycott it, then I don't think it's going to change. because the fans keep turning up and keep...

57:39Kieran Maguire: That's the thing we can't boycott it, because if we boycott it now and you miss two games at Old Trafford, your season ticket's cancelled anyway. It's like... And that's what they want. You're kind of giving them what they want by boycotting it because they can resell the club. Ten years ago, Liverpool fans did walk... We walked out on the 77th minute. Affected the score, didn't it? And that affected the score. Sunderland came back, we were 2-0 up, it ended up being 2-2. But that was over a proposal of£77 tickets at Anfield and£1 ,000 season tickets. we still haven't got£77 tickets at Anfield now because of that because the ownership recognised the power of that and then you know okay they're gradually starting to try and edge them back up again and we've had two rises in the last three years and one freeze we're saying there should be a freeze now and next year we're in the negotiations now so we can't talk too much about that it's an actual bit of it but it proves that when fans do come together when fans campaign and when fans start to do things that hit them back They will listen and they will change.

58:36Kieran Maguire: It's all about them looking at it, as Wayne said there, and just saying, can we get away with it? Yeah, 3 % there, 4 % there, whatever it might be. We're charging more for this, we're charging more for that. You've got to moan about it.

58:48Wayne Rooney: But there is one problem that we've got at Chelsea, which I don't think doesn't apply anywhere else. They're very happy for us to not go. Our part owner is a part owner of a company called Vivid Seats, which is a legitimate ticket-outing website. The best thing that can happen from his perspective is that loads of people from Matthew Harding lower don't go and then those tickets can find their way onto his website.

59:12Jamie Carragher: It won't last forever. The fans are the product. And the thing is, if that were to happen, if we were to walk out, there's two problems. A, like I just said, football is our life. I go home and away to every game. For me, there is nothing without football. I'm never going to not go. I'm going to cough up. I was a uni student. my ticket went up from 150 to 640, no warning. I was expecting it to be about 190. It was insane. Was I, you know, able to pay rent? No. Did I still buy my ticket? Yeah. Didn't pay rent, bought my season ticket. Because that's what it means to us. And the problem is, it is exploiting loyalty.

59:49Jamie Carragher: The phrasing is brilliant with the FSA with that. Exploiting loyalty, it's almost like, and I know you're not going to like this phrase, it's almost like a bit of a miniature monopoly. Because we're not going to, if I'm annoyed at Forest for the ticketing, Forrest's my life. I'm going to pay it. I'm going to go. I'm not going to go support Derby. That's just not how it works. And it's exploiting that culture that we have, that you support a team for life. And that's wrong.

1:00:12Luke: Football is a love affair. It's a bit like your children. You don't always like the club, but you always love them. And therefore, that love forces you to a certain extent, I'm not going to miss a match. Because it just means...

1:00:28Wayne Rooney: Last question, Kieran. with all these things that have come in PSR, the new amongst all the world squad ratio and stuff like that is footballing in England in a healthier place

1:00:40Luke: sort of financially right now? No it's not the average club in the championship is losing£450 ,000 a week the average losses in the Premier League are over a million pounds a week even if you drop down to League One they're losing£120 ,000 a week It's non-stop. So they brought in rules which pay lip service to what they're supposed to achieve. It's not sustainable as a normal business. It's reliant upon the wealth of owners.

1:01:11Wayne Rooney: Well, a lot of the revenue is around TV deals, isn't it? That basically comes into football clubs. Where are we with TV deals in terms of still going up and up and up? Do you think that will stop?

1:01:24Luke: Well, no, because if you take a look at the current position, The Premier League in 2029 will have 4 % more money than it had in 2017. So in real terms, it's gone down. And the Premier League's had to give... It was originally having just over 100 matches a season available. That's gone to over 200 in the current deal between 2025 and 2029. The money from the overseas deals is still creeping up. But I saw something on the Premier League website, which they hadn't even advertised. Last season, 24-25, they gave out less money to clubs than they did in 23-24. Now, part of the reason for that is that their legal costs have gone through the roof.

1:02:05Luke: But even so, that growth that I think became embedded in football for so long has disappeared. And that's why the clubs will say, we're not getting more money from television, we therefore have to go after the fans and try to squeeze them because you've got your three pillars of revenue.

1:02:20Kieran Maguire: Why did the legal costs go up? What? What did their legal cost go up? What did their legal cost go up? Man City. Oh, yeah. Sky, yeah.

1:02:28Wayne Rooney: So we started on Man City, so we'll finish with Man City. Right, that's it for another great episode of The Fan Debate brought to you by Skybet. See you next time.

1:02:42Thank you.

1:03:03We'll be right back.