Clattenburg: United Mind Games, Liverpool Bust Ups & Forest Job! The Overlap Fan Debate

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1:53To find your mochi moment, Visit joinmochi.com Tara is a Mochi member compensated for her story Some players just didn't like me and I didn't like them Name names Crank Badlame It felt like the role was just about telling Maranakis When the referee was wrong I remember I had a fight with Adam Lallana As you do I think I said to Rio once I said go and tell your manager to f*** off And he only turned around and said I'm not telling him Mark Clattenburg, Arsenal fans are the problem No Well Stuart Atwell, in that match My professional opinion, he made two mistakes So I got a phone call from Mike Riley, my boss He said, did you say it?

2:35I said, yeah I did I said, but tell him next time I'll send him off Is it true that you have a tattoo of all of the Vinals that you've done, including the Olympic Games? I've got the Sidemen, no way I've wasted 18 years to say that I know I need Ms Mell over there Why are you sitting behind us?

2:56Welcome to a new episode of The Fan Debate, brought to you by Skybet. And this week we are joined by our special guest, Mark Clattenberg, who we all know best from a referee in the Premier League, now involved in Nottingham Forest, and doing a little stint on Gladiators as well, Mark. So, fill us in. What's happening at the moment? What are you up to? Gladiators is, what, every Saturday night at the moment? So, we film that in the summer, of course. Just bits of bobs, bits of TV work, working for Amazon Prime on their Champions League nights and watching my favourite team Newcastle United win yesterday.

3:31Jamie, sorry for that. No, that was last week. LAUGHTER Yeah, so no, just enjoying life, retiring a bit after retiring from the Premier League, going out to Saudi and China and then Greece and then now just trying to improve my golfing handicap. OK. Favourite gladiator? Don't tell me why, for say about. Oh, OK. All right, explain us a little bit about this role now then, about Nottingham Forest, because I think when you first went in there, it was a bit like, you know, former referee going into a football club. I thought it was a little bit to do with maybe giving them a greater understanding of maybe VAR, the officials, different things.

4:13I mean, what is your role? Because it seems it's a little bit more than that. Yeah, it was interesting because I've known Mr Maranac, I guess the owner for many years, he owns Olympiakos in Greece and I was in Greece for four years. So I knew him on a personal level and I knew he owned Nottingham Forest. And Nottingham Forest were going through a difficult period with refereeing decisions last season. They felt, the club felt that they were on the wrong end of a lot of decisions. And he was getting more and more frustrated, of course. And I was on the end of the mobile phone when he was ringing us complaining, even though I wasn't employed by him, I was there as just a person who we knew.

4:45And I could pass on trying to explain the refereeing decisions to him, even though it was difficult to do that because most of the decisions were clearly wrong. So I took the phone call from him and I analysed it and I thought, because he wanted us to come and work for him, trying to advise him. And I looked into it and I thought, you know what, it could work this because you see it in rugby. We've seen former referees going working for England national team to help them with the rules, but also behind the scenes, maybe referee some of the matches they're training or whatever. So it does work in other sports and it works in other countries because Italy, Jose Mourinho employed, an Italian to sit up in the stands and feed down some refereeing decisions if the refereeing decisions weren't correct.

5:26People will say, well, that just can't influence anything on the game, but it can certainly help them calm down if a coach is going crazy over a refereeing decision and I'm saying the decision's right, it might just have a different outcome. So I thought about it and I ended up being employed by Nottingham Forest, but I was mainly, when I was inside, we never talked about refereeing. It was mainly the Greek reality, the English reality, talking about his club. I've got a footballing background. I've been involved in football for so many years. Not just refereeing. Refereeing was what? I'd been retired seven years.

6:00It was a chance for me to have a different career. Who wanted your advice on football? This wasn't just about refereeing? It wasn't just refereeing. It was more about the club. For example, coaches, players, tactics. because I could see, for example, some things from corner kicks where, for example, the defenders are blocking. So I would go to their analysts and say, look, have you noticed this from one club clearly making a block? You were the first set-piece coach somewhere, weren't you, Mark? What's that? You were the first set-piece coach. But I'll stand up here to the technical area and shout.

6:37No, so I could feed into the analyst, but also I would do a referee report, about the referee and the VAR for the following week. For example, some referees are strong on challenges, some referees are strong on dissent, and I could feed that into the club, that this referee is really strong on dissent, so you need to be careful with the players, and certainly around dissent or time-waves. I felt giving that 1 % to a club could have a material outcome, but during that time I was at Forest, nothing really improved. The refereeing decisions didn't get any better. And in the end, people say that the decisions should balance themselves out.

7:19It never does when you're down the bottom. And when you're in panic mode, because the owner invested a lot of money. And when I was a referee, I just made a decision, of course. When you make a decision, you go, blow. You don't see the outcome behind the scenes of somebody who has invested a lot of money. He's in panic that he has to stay in the Premier League. and there were three games from the end on the verge of being relegated so the stress levels were huge and in the end, we felt, himself and me, was that it wasn't really beneficial because every time I was in the ground, the cameras were on us.

7:56You like that? I needed to improve the time. But no, the cameras were always on us. So in the end, we felt as a club that the focus was too much on me and not the team. And therefore, we decided to part ways. But before you sort of parted ways, I think when it almost blew up was the game at Goodison against Everton when Forrest felt they were denied some big decisions. And after the game, you stated it was a hat-trick of howlers from the refereeing team. And unfortunately for Forrest, that continuation of an unjust trend that has hampered their survival fight. Is that what that me lawyer said?

8:38Yeah, that's what it's got you down as a saying there. I mean, there was the... I'm not sure if they were your words or that was the actual tweet, but there was a tweet went out from the football club. I think maybe you put something out as well. I think most of football... I think we can all understand the frustration of each other with refereeing decisions. You think the world's against you. But when an official club comes out with sort of the terminology after the game, I was taken aback. It was a build-up, Jamie. It wasn't just that game. So forget about the other decision. What had happened a few days before the game was...

9:15And one thing, when I was a referee, I didn't want to be involved. If Newcastle and Sunderland, for example, as a Newcastle fan, I couldn't referee Sunderland. But also I didn't want to referee teams around if, for example, Sunderland were always in the relegation fight. So I didn't want to be involved in clubs around them. and also I didn't want to be in, if Newcastle was, say, going for the Champions League spot, I didn't want to do teams around that because I didn't want to be accused of anything. And what happened was a few days before, we were brought, the club was brought to the attention that Stuart Atwell was a Luton Town fan.

9:49And that set up a lot of bad feelings because they'd had such a lot of bad refereeing decisions. It was so crucial in the season. Bad feelings from who? You, you or the old everybody? Because you're the referee. Yeah, so it was brought through the club, through journalists, that they were going to bring it up in Nuno's press conference that Stuart Atwell was a Luton Town fan. Luton, Everton and Nottingham Forest were in a very delicate situation. I think there was only a few points between. And they felt, the club felt, it would have been better that Stuart wasn't a VAR. When I spoke with Howard Webb, who was the head of refereeing in England, he wasn't aware that Stuart Atwell was a Luton Town fan, which surprised me a bit.

10:32because we all had to find... I was just going to say, surely you have to declare who you support. Yeah, we had to declare. I declared that I was a Newcastle fan. I couldn't referee Newcastle or Sunderland. So I was surprised that... Probably not surprised, because Howard was new to the job. He probably wasn't up to speed with who supported. But I felt, and I said this to Howard, I appointed referees in Greece. I know the politics and how things work. It would have been better before the appointments were released that Stuart Atwell wasn't given the game. I'm not saying he's impartial or he's fair.

11:01Of course he's fair. English referees are the fairest across the whole world. But it put Stuart in a very difficult situation, that if anything happens, people will always bring back the Watford ghost goal, which Watford and Luton are arch enemies as well. All of this comes out. Stuart could have been avoided. But I understood Howard's position. Once you've made the appointments, it's difficult to change because it sets up another argument of why you're changing the referee. Not in a forest have made a complaint. You shouldn't be doing this. so I understood it all. All I said to Howard was this is going to be a difficult situation because he's a no-win situation.

11:36If anything happens in a match, Stewart's destroyed. Sorry, Scores, you're saying that almost like you and the club, Nottingham Forest, Mr Maranakas, as you call him, are really worried about Stewart Atwell. I don't think he's that worried about Stewart Atwell. I think Mr Maranakas is actually thinking he's looting. I think his thought process is he could give something against us not or we're worried about Stuart Atwell after this game I don't think that would have been a thought process at the club at all I think the world's changed so much now you know they're looking at referees refereeing refereeing now under such spotlight than it's ever been and all they felt and they just felt that they not that Stuart Atwell would make a mistake.

12:28That wasn't the issue. It was just the fact that Luton Town and the outcome of this match would affect potentially Nottingham Forest going down. So you're saying, now you've been a referee, talking about Stuart Atwell, what we're basically saying is subconsciously you think referees have got an association with a football club, will give a decision because of that. No, because you want to get every decision right. I'm not saying subconsciously, but like I said to you, I would want to avoid such matches. I wouldn't want to be put in that pressure. I don't agree that you just want to avoid the controversy.

13:01Get a card out for me. For example, Stuart Atwell, in that match, in my opinion, my professional opinion, he made two mistakes. People can argue he made three mistakes, but I think he made two clear mistakes. The handball of Ashley Young and the foul by Ashley Young in the second half. Both weren't given by VAR. And VAR was there to improve refereeing decisions and should get the final outcome right. But on both occasions, them decisions didn't, it wasn't 3-0 and it could have been 3-1, it was 1-0, it was 0-0 at the time, the first one, then it was 1-0 at Everton, on the clear second one in the second half, Pigeonwell came out and announced that the third one was a clear penalty, but it doesn't put the outcome right, and the pressures of refereeing now, and the spotlight they're under, you would want to avoid, for example, Jared Gile, even though he's Australian, he came out many years ago and said he was a Liverpool fan, why has he never refereed Liverpool at Everton?

13:57It's just, you declare and you can't do them clubs because you have to be impartial. Not subconsciously because you want to get everything right, but mistakes happen. But to make two errors in one game in such a high profile match, when the club already feel because he's Greek and we're in England, he feels that referees can influence matches, that's not the case anymore. You think that did have a big influence on it? Sorry? You think it actually did have a big influence on it? The lad being a Luton fan? No, I don't think it did. Can I ask, Mark? Because what I've never understood about that is surely the best outcome that day for Luton was Everton and Forrest to draw.

14:44Because Everton were always getting out of it because they were just miles better than the two. But they were, though, weren't they? As it was, Everton should never have been docked points. They would have been at the other end of the trade. well, halfway up but that day it felt a draw would have been the better result for Luton because it wouldn't have let anyone sort of get away and that's why I couldn't understand the outcry from Forrest because he should have surely if he was favouring Luton should have given Forrest a penalty I just think it was the frustrations of all season knowing that he was a Luton Town fan and then what happened happened he felt something was going to happen and it did and therefore he made the decision and the club made the decision to put out this tweet which had nothing to do with me.

15:28I made my comments through the Daily Mail, which I was employed to do, and I'm making my judgment call as a professional individual why I think the decisions are wrong, not because I'm employed by Nottingham Forest. I was working on behalf of the Daily Mail, and I made my judgment call that I felt that the referee didn't, and the VAR didn't have a very good game in that match. That didn't say, and I never mentioned anything about Stuart Atwell, saying, because he's a Luton Town fan, I just advised Howard Webb, that's what the club said, and that was what was going to be said in Nuno's press conference.

16:00Surely it would have been better for Howard Webb to avoid it if he knew, and I think he would have in the future, or he would have in the future, he would have at the time if he knew before the appointments were released that Stewart was a Luton Town fan. I think you wouldn't have seen Stewart on that match, but nobody would have talked about it.

16:25The market's uncertain. Revenue's tied and hiring on hold. That's why results-driven companies are using Upwork to keep work moving. Go to Upwork.com today and start hiring proven freelance talent fast. No bulky overhead. No rigid long-term contracts. Just the right expert right when you need them. Work smarter and faster with Upwork. Go to Upwork.com now and find your freelance expert. That's U-P-W-O-R-K.com. Post a job for free and get started today. A mochi moment from Tara, who writes, For years, all my doctor said was eat less and move more, which never worked. But you know what does? The simple eating tips from my nutritionist at Mochi.

17:08And after losing over 30 pounds, I can say you're not just another GLP-1 source. You're a life source. Thanks, Tara. I'm Myra Ameth, founder of Mochi Health. To find your mochi moment, visit joinmochi.com. Tara is a Mochi member compensated for her story. Thank you for calling the Bombas Comfort Line. Bombas make socks, slippers, tees, and underwear made with the highest quality materials. Press 1 for comfort, 2 for style, 3 for donation. You chose style. Bombas is styles for whatever you enjoy. You can run in Bombas, lounge in Bombas, dress them up, dress them down, but always give back in Bombas.

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18:19Mark, do you regret taking your role at Nottingham Forest? Not at the time, no. I do at the end because it seemed that the media pressure stopped something that I was trying to achieve. I've been out of refereeing seven years at that point, so I'm not a referee anymore. I'm working in media, I'm doing other things. Why shouldn't I be allowed to work in football? Is it because I was a referee that I'm not allowed to have another job? a footballer can be a manager, he can do other jobs and it felt the pressure from the shareholders, the media around my appointment in Nottingham Forest was disliked and it created a pressure that I didn't really want Nottingham Forest to be in when they already had the pressures of trying to survive.

19:05Do you think people were looking at your role and almost thinking you were almost trying to gain influence in some ways and that maybe your words could put pressure on referees you're talking about that situation with teams around Nottingham Forest at that time. You know, you're putting statements out, you might be critical in your role with the Daily Mail, but you're still part of Forest. I mean, could you understand the frustration maybe from other clubs looking at your situation, thinking you're Nottingham Forest trying to gain an advantage in some way? We can all say we're all employed. For example, you as a pundit, you say you're not criticising players or you're criticising managers.

19:40Sometimes you have to say the truth. And if I think that... But you're getting paid by Nottingham Forest as well. But that was in a technical advisor role. It had nothing to do with refereeing. I'm working for the Daily Mail because they ask me opinion on a decision. I don't criticise referees if you watch. I criticise the decision that was made. If the referees have got a problem with that, that's their problem. When I was a referee, if somebody said that I got a decision wrong, I have to analyse that back myself and think, why did I get that wrong? I don't think that that person dislikes us.

20:11he's criticising me no he's criticising the decision so I feel I should be allowed to have that opinion in a correct way but also be employed to do what I was doing with Mr Maranakis in the club to advise him on matters within the club and also working with the lawyers and other things Sorry Mark, it wasn't matters to do with refereeing No, not at all Technical advisor Not at all Paul, it was more because I knew the Greek reality and I knew the English. See, I think everyone thinks it was just solely refereeing. I half understand the role if you're helping players, maybe. If you're in with a team, you're addressing the team and saying this is how referees act, you're coming up to a game on a Saturday, it might be an important role.

21:01But it felt like the role was just about telling Maranakis when the referee was wrong. No, because there was times when I had to say they were right. Alaska's my opinion. He might think he didn't really enjoy the referee's performance, probably because not in a forest loss. Because he's on a down anyways because they've lost. But I'm actually saying the referee did OK. When you say technical advisor then, to what? So, for example, the club might be writing a letter to the Premier League about refereeing decisions. And they would ask my opinion on when I saw them. But it was mainly about refereeing then, wasn't it?

21:36No, but there was also things like he might ask us about a coach. He might ask us, what do you think, what's your opinion with a few games from the end? What's your opinion? Are we going to go get relegated? Which games do you think? So he's asking my opinion about football and also I'm there probably for him to have a shout at. Did you address players? Did you advise players? Never had the shout. I was only in a short period of time, so it was difficult. It was difficult. I was speaking to Nuno, of course, but I was also each week filling in a report about the tendencies of the referee, for example.

22:14I would analyse his two-year data and most referees have trends, for example. Some referees are very strong on dissent. I wasn't. Players could speak to me. Thank God. I would have sent you off to you. I didn't understand you, Jamie, that was my problem. But in general, you can see trends. Some referees are really strong on challenges. So, for example, Michael Salisbury the weekend, that was refereeing in the forest against Ipswich. I knew he was strong on challenges, doesn't caution for dissent. So you can actually say to your players, look, he lets you speak to him. So therefore have the freedom to interact with him.

22:50Where some referees, like Anthony Taylor, his statistics tell you that you can't speak to him. Well, Mark, talking about referees, let's go back to your journey and how you became one of the top referees. in the Premier League, where did it start? Where did the love of refereeing come from? Because I was a failed footballer. What a laugh. No, it's the truth. You want to play football, of course. And I tried to play, play for the school, play for junior level, but I just knew I wasn't good enough. And then my crazy school teacher said, look, I'm going to send some of you on a refereeing course.

23:25Would you like to do it? And I went, why not? And then the journey started at 16. And then it was a crazy period because I got thrusted different levels and then I was refereeing semi-professional in the North East at 19. And then I was lucky to be on the Football League list at 24. I refereed my first game at 25. So it was so young, so quick, I didn't really have a chance to analyse what was going on. I knew I wasn't going to be an assistant referee because I got bored so quickly. I used to switch off all the time. So I thought, I'm not going to be an assistant referee. I want to be a referee.

23:59And I was quickly moved through the system. When you say quickly, did they spot something in you and other referees straight away? Do you think we've got to fast track this lad, we've got to move him up the levels quicker than we probably would do normally? Yeah, you get assessed. So people come out to watch you and then if they're impressed. But you need luck as well. I remember rushing in diamonds were just drawn with the leads in the Premier League in the cup. And they were playing Baron Barrow in the conference. And I was an assistant referee at the time. but we didn't, the fourth official wouldn't have, in them days, the fourth official wouldn't have gone on as the referee.

24:33It was the assistant went on as the referee and one of the old assistants said to me, he said, you can be senior today, thinking the referee's not going to come off. And Michael Oliver's dad, Clive, came off injured after 12 minutes or some short period and ended up refereeing 80 minutes in front of the cameras because they were playing Leeds in the midweek in a cup replay. All the focus was on this game and it went well and everybody was impressed and people could see it and it just seemed to elevate my career a bit quicker than I expected. What would you say, the big three things for any referee?

25:06I know everybody has their own stars. What are the big three things that you think you need? You need fitness. You need to be humble, but you need to have personality. And I think you've got the laws of the game. Everybody knows the laws of the game. You also have interpretations of law. you also have, for example, your referee in the Premier League. Fans always say to me, it's the laws of the game. It's not. It's like UEFA. I hear pundits like yourself in Gary say, what about a handball? What about that would be given in UEFA, but it wouldn't be given in the Premier League. But surely it's the same laws.

25:43Everybody has different criterias. Everybody has different idea what should be given. We've still got this, an opinion. So what we're trying to do is stop people's opinion by trying to guide people that the arm is outstretched, for example, a handball. But it's not consistent around the world. So, you know, all of this has to go into refereeing decision-making. But for me, the biggest thing I learned was personality. And I think once you get players on your side, it makes your life easier. I'm not saying you're going to win every player because some players just didn't like me and I didn't like them.

26:17Name names. Crank Badlamy. Was he the worst? Yeah. there was Craig was my problem was with Craig was I was refereeing Bolton Man City and I cautioned him for dissent I could have easily sent him off and I know if I'm going to send him off for foul language I'm going to be in the world news so I want to try and avoid that controversy I didn't want the club to be upset I tried to manage the situation and then I sent him off for a die when I watch it back later on that night and it's a penalty so he never forgives for it so and it never got overturned because it was two yellow cards, which is crazy because if I'd said it was wrong, then the suspension should be dropped, but that's the rules is, two yellow cards, and he has to serve a one-match suspension, so he didn't forgive us for that.

27:03There's other times where I remember I had a fight with Adam Lallana. As you do.

27:11Go on, tell us that story, because that made the news at the time, didn't it? Yeah, but I would have made the news. So it was Everton. it was Everton I've got to say I've wasted 18 years to sit there I know I'm not in as well over there why are you sitting behind us that was strategic so I was I was going back to Everton after so many years I'm not Jamie but we'll talk about that later and Adam gave us dogs abuse and I think he was frustrated at the end of the game so I used to take it into a bit of account if it got beat a bit of frustration it was Christmas he's probably had too much turkey and stuff like that so he was a bit upset and there was some choice words said and I said to him look I said there you know you've changed since you played for England because I wanted it to defuse the situation you know and you've fucking changed since you played for England and he looked at us and we walked off and that was nothing was said anymore and I thought well I'd defuse that quite well I'm happy with myself next day I read The Sun or whatever that newspaper is and headline Mark Clattenberg said this to Adam Lallana so I get a phone call from Mike Riley my boss he said did you say it I said yeah I did.

28:16I said, but tell him next time I'll fucking send him off. And I said, you can't have it both ways. If he's given his dogs abuse and I'm not sending him off, why was it in the media the next day? And it could only have come from Adam Lallana, even though he's used his club to make a complaint. So he signs for Liverpool and I'm refereeing Liverpool opening day of the season. And he comes up to us in the tunnel. He says, Mark, I wasn't behind it. I went, you fucking were, you little squirt. Like, he was behind it. Do you know what I mean? So I was only being honest with him. Don't fucking come in because I'm going to referee you and you're thinking I'm going to fucking send you off again.

28:50You know what I mean? I quite like that, mate, didn't you? Yeah. Referee giving a bit back. But why did he make that statement when it should stay on the field? Fair enough. I've heard referees, the swear. If we send off every player that's... If you told people everything we said, fuck. Come on. Did you have to be super conscious then in that game? Because he's a grass. You were essentially reffing him differently in a way in any contrast of the fact that this pre-existing narrative exists I think it was Jurgen Klopp was the man I thanked Jurgen at the end of Gimp for not bringing him off the bench

29:27Adam you've got a question for Mark I did have another question but you just mentioned something there how you didn't make a decision because you were aware of what the headlines could be and stuff like that but is that not the wrong way to look at it if you're then making the wrong decision based off what you think the fallout's going to be. But refereeing and laws, the rules of the game, a lot of it's subjective so you will have one referee who can for example doesn't accept foul language, there's other referees that will accept foul language so for example you will have a decision where for example you know that foul language I can defuse if I then send them off which is against what I normally do because if somebody lip read me in games they would say Mark's probably swore to play why is he sending the player off and I know that if I do that then I'm going to be open to everybody to criticise us so sometimes I used to feel it was better to diffuse it in other ways because yeah I've got the rules I can send them off but I've also got the interpretation that I can manage and we were all told many years ago now it's different referees are a bit robotic when we were referees we told us our personality so we didn't have that issue but I get what fans will always say that you should referee the game as it is, as the laws are, but you've got, for example, you've got huge pressures and huge games.

30:51And I remember, and I was right, but the abuse I took and the death threats I took, I remember sending off Boyata. It was Man City Arsenal. And I sent off Boyata after two minutes and a huge title clash. And he clearly pulled the player down outside the penalty area. It's a clear red card. I give a red card and the death threats I got through social media. Because when I first started refereeing, we didn't have social media. Then in the end, we're subject to social media and the abuse that you take and the phone calls I used to get at my house phone, the post. I used to say to the postman, please, please, please, don't give me the post when it's just got Mark, the crap referee.

31:35They used to think that it was funny, that it didn't even have my address on and Royal Mail would think they're doing us a favour by sending us the frigging board. That's almost like a player going, well, I'm not going to take a penalty because if I miss it, I'm going to get abuse. No, no, it's not. What I'm saying is you've got, especially when it comes to foul language, foul language is so open. There's times when players are using industrial language, maybe frustration. And I managed Adam Lallana because I felt it was frustration and I felt I could diffuse it in another way. There could be another week where I might be in a bad mood and I feel Adam and Lauren are abusing us and I might end up sending him off.

32:14So there could be two situations practically the same. But I felt at that time, in my management skills, I felt it was the right time to do what I did. Subconsciously, in your head, you're thinking, I know that, for example, I was telling a story back, it was about Jose Mourinho, for example. And Jose Mourinho, our refereed Stoke Man United, Wayne Rooney broke the record so all the headlines should be about Wayne Rooney breaking the record, which is a huge thing and he comes in and he says I've missed a clear penalty and straight away in my head I'm thinking, oh my god if I've missed a penalty in this game I'm going to get huge abuse you don't understand, people don't understand the abuse that you take it's not just, I remember when I first started refereeing in the top level we used to only have a report But on a Sunday, and you used to get a mark, well, I always wanted a six.

33:08I never wanted a seven. I wanted a six because I used to turn the paper upside down and go to nine. I never wanted a seven. So that was, we didn't have that abuse. But then everything changed because of the way social media was and the abuse that you took. And you've got a family. I've got my daughter in school. And everything I do has a consequence. So you're also trying to protect everything around your family because all I'm trying to do is I'm trying to do my job to my best of my ability. But unfortunately, refereeing in England and around the world, you can't do that.

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34:43That's B-O-M-B-A-S.com and use code audio at checkout. A Mochi Moment from Sadie, who writes, I'm not crying, you're crying. This is what I said during my first appointment with my physician at Mochi, because I didn't have to convince him I needed a GLP-1. He understood, and I felt supported, not judged. I came for the weight loss and stayed for the empathy. Thanks, Sadie. I'm Myra Ameth, founder of Mochi Health. To find your Mochi moment, visit joinmochi.com. Sadie is a Mochi member compensated for her story.

35:19What is the advice from the head of referees of how to deal with social media or when one of the referees is in that media storm? How do you all sort of react and come together? It's difficult. You learn. we learned back in 2008 when I was accused of racially abusing Oba Mikel in a game Chelsea-Manchester United and they never learned at that time they didn't know what to do I had media camped outside my house my wife couldn't go to work and my daughter was very young and it was such a difficult moment sorry not 2008 2012 it was a very difficult moment for the family but the PGM world didn't know what to do and how to react they react better now because you learn and from experiences.

36:02But it was interesting, for example, Chelsea, who were the club that accused us, in the end, we as referees couldn't understand why the club did what they did. They said they were duty-bound. But one of the comments was interesting. The club thought I lived in a gated community with a security guard at the head of my street. They didn't understand that I just lived in a normal house in a normal street. They thought I had the protection that the players would have and we weren't, we're just normal people living in a normal estate. And we get abuse enough, but with the pressures of everything that happened in 2012, people learned from it.

36:42So now Pigeon will have psychologists, you have a lot more backroom staff to support the referees a lot more. People say, and I don't know what yous were like as players, but people say don't look at social media. But you do, you do. You want to see the good bits to say you're doing well, but unfortunately it never really happens you know you want that buzz you wanted that little bit sometimes before a big game you wanted somebody to just give you something positive to go into the game really positive but in the end when you did read it some of the abuse was You mentioned managers before sorry to scrolls it but you mentioned managers because when we talk about players listen there's been some huge figures in management probably Ferguson's probably the most famous in terms of referees give us an insight into what it was like with Klopp Ferguson Jose Mourinho after games before games what was their ways of trying to get into your because we always hear the famous term mind games and trying to work a referee yeah a lot of it was mind games I remember Manchester United and how they used to do it and Scorsese might laugh in a minute but Virgil I'm convinced used to send one player at a time because he knew if he kept sending the same player eventually he's going to get cautioned and then I remember saying I think it was the Rio you're looking a bit deep yeah I think I said the Rio once I said go and tell your fucking manager to fuck off.

38:00And he only turned around and he said, I'm not telling him. Because you knew what they were doing. There was one after another. Just again, it wasn't the decision. They didn't care about because they couldn't change that decision. It was the next one. They wanted that next decision. So there was that mind games that, and then you had managers that used to want to try to befriend you, you know, to make you feel special. You know, Jose, they call him the special one. That's what he tried to do. He charmed you. You know, it wasn't in gifts or anything like that, but it was the way after games they'd won of course Mark Klattenberg had a great game you're like fucking bullshit but that's it was to make you feel good because in your head you think he likes us yeah who was the worst referee so you mentioned the worst player I remember Jürgen was difficult I had a big run in with Jürgen and I was lucky because it was at Real Madrid and he was Dortmund Dortmund manager and they'd just been beaten 3-0 and I thought I had a good game the Cesar came in from UEFA you've had a good game and it was Marcelo, the full-back.

39:00Crazy, but he says, can I have a picture? And I'm like, what with me? And he said, yeah, yeah, can I have a picture? And then his wife was there. Referees never get pictures with players, man. I want to see that. I don't even get shirts. I tried to get jimmies once. I've been subbed. But no, it was, he says, can I have a picture? I said, yeah, of course. And I'm standing outside my dressing room and his wife was there. I think some of his family on dodge we took the picture and Jürgen came past and he went fucking hell he says is that why we got beat fucking 3-0 and I turned around and I said you're fucking lucky you got beat 3-0 fuck off and everybody laughed you know what I mean but I was pleased I was in Real Madrid not Dortmund because I would have to get out of Dortmund alive but that was his that was me mentality I remember doing one of his first games for Liverpool and they were playing Chelsea away and they won 1-0 and he was one like then he started to realise because he's in England he needs to and he knew I was going to referee most of his top matches because I was one of the more experienced referees.

39:58I wouldn't say one of the better ones because that's for everybody else's opinion, but I was the more experienced. That's what you was going to say. That's what you believe. So I was walking along and he was doing a press interview and he turned around to me and he says, oh, these idiots think after I've won one game of Chelsea that I'm going to win the league. And I just says, welcome to England. And he laughed and smiled because he knows he's trying to play mind games with me, trying to befriend us now. He used to state your warm-ups. I was thinking, why are you staring at me warm-ups? And then I remember one time he came, he never ever brought the team sheets in.

40:30Never. It was always... The assistant. Yeah, the kit man or whatever it was. And you used to have to brief the captains or if there was any new, not new guidance from the PGM world, but if there was something from the police, for example, not to go and do up scene, like, if you score, don't celebrate, or whatever, I tried to avoid celebrating. So we would brief the captains in the clubs. And Jürgen came in, it was against Chelsea at home, in the port-a-cavern because the stadium was getting renovated. And Jordan was in and John Terry was the captains. And it was Gary for Chelsea, he was their person for the team sheets.

41:09And Jürgen just, I thought, when I was surprised when he came in, I'm thinking, that's not usual, Jürgen coming in with the team sheets. And he just stares at us. And he stares at us for 30 seconds and I didn't say anything. and John Terry and Jordan, I think, come on, Mark, say something. And I never said anything. And then after the 30 seconds, I thought, this is getting nowhere, this. So I just shook John Terry's hand, Jordan Henderson, and I enjoyed the game, lads. And they were like, look, I'm going. But it was like an intimidation. Yeah, I'm just going to say, intimidating-wise, there were some probably influential captains around that time.

41:41You're thinking of ours in Roy, obviously, and John Terry. Is any of them you was a little bit wary of? Everyone, yeah, you are wary of everyone. But what was interesting in that period with these players,

41:56the captains were allowed to speak to the referee. I think it's just been brought back in. But it was actually interesting because they loved the captains because then they thought, this is a great example now to go and abuse you. So all the fans, I think, oh, the referee's allowed to speak to the referee. Yeah, it's brilliant. But actually he was coming in. John Terry would have some choice words or whatever. Everybody just wanted to win. and it was that probably where I got better as a referee was I started to understand the game more I knew the laws I knew football I didn't know the laws but you know what I mean I interpreted them the right way or I could understand them but I understood the game a bit more and when I understood the game a bit more I became a better referee and there was one quick situation just for the people it was Bayern Munich against Barcelona and it was a semi-final of a Champions League second leg and Klina was my observer.

42:50Pierluigi Klina is a big Italian with the big eyes. He was my boss. I was scared of him and everybody else was scared of him. I'd watched the first leg because I knew what I was going to do with the second leg because I had my flight details. You don't get in the game, but I wasn't stupid. I'm flying to Munich, so it doesn't take a daft Geordie to work out I'm refereeing by Munich in the second leg. So I watched the game and I watched it back six times. And I thought, Barcelona won the first game 3-0, three late goals. There wasn't anything wrong with the referee. The referee did okay. There wasn't really anything underlying because I wanted to watch the games.

43:20Because if I saw a bad challenge, for example, I want to make sure that for the next game, I'm watching them two players because you might think I'm going to try and get them back. So I'm analysing everything. And Pierluigi Kleiner at the lunch before the game, he said, Mark, I'm going to show you something. Did you see the games? And I said, yeah, yeah, I've seen the games. He said, I'm going to show you some incidents in the game. I want you to have a look at them. And what it was, and this is what, talking about tactics, Thiago was the smallest player for Bayern Munich. They had Lewandowski, Muller, Boteng, all the big players.

43:52Barcelona only had one big player, which was Pique. All of the rest, Alba, Mascherano, all small players. And what they were doing, they were putting Thiago on Pique and blocking Pique, so they were creating space for all of the tall players to come in. Creating a foul, but a clever foul, or in offside situations, the low was different. You could stand in an offside position and just stand there and make it difficult for the players to get around you. So they were blocking and using it as a tactic. He said, you need to solve this because if something happens in the game, it's going to be highly controversial.

44:29And even the TV didn't pick up on it. 30 minutes in the game, I wore a foul. I go to Thiago because not the most speak English. And worst thing is, trying to understand an English with a Jody accent is even more difficult. So I'm going, Thiago, I'm watching. and he's going me no no problem I'm watching Pique is looking at me going what and I've got the fourth official I can hear the fourth official the coach from Barcelona is going absolutely bonkers saying it's a tactic watch it they'll do it they'll do it and the fourth official I hear just say calm ball comes in nothing just I give a foul he blocks it he blocks Pique Pique looks at me and goes unbelievable and after that that detail I could do anything in that match because the players believed this because they believed that I knew what they were going to do next.

45:14And that solved, that made me a better referee that I knew and I understood the game more. And that's probably helped us later in life. Luke, you've got a question for Mark? Yeah, what was it like reffing these, especially? All about the cheating going on at your neck. What? Mr. 150. Jesus Christ. How would you know you weren't even in our league then? Jimmy cost his eight years at Goodison. And I had this guy from, a big Everton fan, clearly. He never ever left his name But he used to ring us Three o 'clock Every Sunday morning Three o 'clock in the morning Therefore wasn't me He did it at four I wanted it to be social Also what you do Is just admit You got the penalty wrong 100 % Kei should have been sent off For a karate kick Yeah And Gerrard Felt outside the box The minute you say that We're good That's our 18 No no I'll give you two Me and Mark Had a chat Obviously had a chat About this before In the room I thought it was really interesting What you said about the game about what you're laying from that game and how to manage your game.

46:14The problem in football now is referees can't learn from the mistakes. Players can. And I think, you know, you miss an open goal or you don't get the header right, you learn. And you're allowed to learn because I find if a player misses an open goal and he scores two goals, he's still a hero. As a referee, you can make 100 decisions right, one wrong, and your criticism is incredible. But what we're talking about, that game itself, learnt me an awful lot about me as a referee. I didn't understand and I was young. I think I'd just come off the Manchester derby, the North London derby and that was my third derby in three weeks which I think was a crazy appointment but I remember the first half was okay we can talk about the dirt count and that's an opinion I believe it's a red card but we're going to leave I didn't see it correctly and we'll go back to the assistant I didn't see the decision correctly the assistant was adamant because he had a view he was adamant it was a yellow card so I'm getting it down the air pace Mark, it's 100 % yellow card and I trusted that assistant because he's one of the top assistants.

47:13He had a better view than me. I took his judgment. I didn't have no decision but I had a decision and he gave us the decision that I thought must be correct. So I give the yellow card looking back after the game, it's a red card. Of course it is, the way he's flown into the challenge. Even though he made no contact, that doesn't make a difference. The other one that you said, Gerrards, is definitely inside. I've checked that one back. But I'll give you two and the one comes to the end is, what's interesting is I've sent two Everton players off and we'll go back to the easiest decision would be to award a penalty to Everton, you know, to get out of the place alive and I blow my final whistle and I don't know what happened and I'm thinking, why am I getting abuse?

47:53Why is David Moyes and everybody in the club against us? I'm thinking, what happened? And when I watch it back, it's a clear penalty. I didn't say it and then when they've analysed it, a player I ran across my vision and I just don't see any contact. I just see he's on the ground. And you go off my reaction. Yeah. He's gone penalty. As an Everton fan, he's gone penalty. So when you spoke to me about it, it was because, and it goes back to something Adam just said there about, you've just got to give the decision. And I get that, but you're talking about managing the game and almost, you've given so much for Liverpool in terms of, you know, you've missed a red card.

48:34I think the Stevie one is ascended off in terms, I think it's Tony Hibbert pulls him back but you've almost got to manage the game manage the game not give something back but almost is that sometimes when you're refereeing which I talked about people football fans are different they don't understand you know the magnitude that you're in in games that you're in but I've always found for example we had this situation in the Champions League final where Real Madrid were playing Atletico Madrid and at half time we're getting the feeling even though we hadn't seen the incident, the feeling was Real Madrid's first goal is in an offside position.

49:11If we'd had VAR, it would have been corrected, of course, but we didn't have VAR. So the assistants made a judgment call and it looks like Ramos is slightly in an offside position. Therefore, the feeling when we're coming out is that there feels an injustice. And I'm not saying you're balanced and you're trying to find something, but you've now got decisions where we look at and I've got to be careful how I say this of course because everybody thinks you've got the decision of course you have but I've now got a decision where

49:44the centre half of Real Madrid I've got now he comes in the back of Pepe Pepe against Torres so Pepe goes into the back of Torres Torres is clever you know he's clever as he turns is it a 100 % penalty? no it's not one of them where you go everybody would agree it and this is the problem with refereeing is you've got decisions where 50 % would say yes 50 % would say no and you're in that understanding that if I don't whistle this penalty, Athletic are going to go crazy because they've had an offside goal and they believe that it should be a penalty because it's not a 100 % penalty, it's more 70-30 penalty in my opinion it's a penalty but you would have a lot of people arguing it wasn't still arguing to this day it isn't but I've got a judgment call to make based on my experience and I'm thinking, hold on, we've got a potential offside goal.

50:37Now I've got a 70-30 penalty, which not everybody's going to agree on. I've got enough evidence to give it because there is a contact on the leg. I've now got a chance when it goes on to the spot. They've got a chance to go 1-1. But if I hadn't, Atletico at the end of the game would have went crazy with my refereeing decisions because they would have believed they've been wrong twice, where Real Madrid don't think they've been wrong twice. They say they've been maybe wrong once and they've gained one. I then give the chance for Atletico Madrid to score. And when Griezmann hits the crossbar, I get this cigar out and I'm going, this is the perfect day.

51:17Mark, tell me the story you talk about. Sorry, Gordy. Sorry. You know when you talk about that, like refereeing the Champions League final between Atletico and Real Madrid, that's the very zenith of the game, isn't it? Yeah. So I'll put a follow-up. But you did every Olympics, Champions League final, Euros final. Is it true? Is there any truth? I read that you actually potentially had the opportunity to referee the World Cup final 2018. If England didn't make that final, there was a chance that you were going to be that referee? No, because... But you chose to go to Saudi. Is that accurate? Yeah, I went to Saudi.

51:51Rather than referee a World Cup final? I couldn't referee the World Cup final. Impossible. Why was that? Because Pierluigi Colina left UEFA, who was my big supporter, went to FIFA, and FIFA's a World Cup. So Pierluigi Colina was the head of refereeing in FIFA. And I'm not stupid. I refereed every final other than the World Cup. There's no referee done everything. Even Colina hasn't. So there was no way I was going to referee the finals. That's politics. Just because of Colina not wanting you to usurp him? It's politics. And is it true that you have a tattoo of all of the finals that you've done, including the Olympics?

52:28I've got the Sidemen. No, I've got the Sidemen. Sidemen YouTube last week. I've got... The thing was, people say to me, why did you get tattoos? You're sad. You know, there's this thing around about... People have got a lot of criticism for having the tattoos and probably that's where people thought to me, it's like you're arrogant, you're a bit above the game or whatever, and it wasn't about that. Because you get so many downsides, we're talking about it now, refereeing was such a lonely place and when you made mistakes, trust me, you're very lonely. You've got nobody around you, your colleagues don't come around you because they want your next game.

53:08They're laughing, probably secretly, because they're thinking they're getting a game next week. People like Lee Mason didn't because he was shit scared because he got a big game.

53:19They're laughing because they knew it. But what I'm saying is, You're really low. I used to look at the tattoos and go, I was a kid from a council background. I'm not saying, but I'm saying I had nothing, the family had nothing and I actually achieved something. And that's something that I used to look for when I had them dark moments that I could look at something that was easily lookable and go, you know what, I actually refereed the Champions League final. How? And it gave us the positives over the negatives. And that's what kept us going.

54:05I don't know.

54:23that the on-field decision should be given. Because when you're in the ground, you're against Man United, no-one had a clue what was going on. Beto scores off the court. There was nothing. Everyone knew there was nothing. The TV people are in front of me and you've got people like Lee Dixon going to goal. He's miles onside. And yet, no-one knows what's going on. Is that clear and obvious thing? That's it, though. But they were looking, like yesterday, for Liverpool's goal. They went, well, he's onside. Let's see if there was a foul on the half. This can't be right. And I think, the reason why I brought it up, I've just seen Gus Poirier having a good rant.

54:57And I know you can't always trust Gus Poirier, but he's had a good rant about VAR, saying it's killing football. Leave the Brighton stuff alone, Mick. But what do you think, as a referee, or as an ex-referee? I'll always say it's killing the emotion of the game now. I think that Liverpool player should be allowed to celebrate his goal. even though he doesn't really want to celebrate because he wants to get the ball back to the halfway line. That critical moment suited Newcastle in a way because Liverpool were just inserting a bit of pressure and the pressure has just been released by that VAR decision.

55:33It allows Newcastle to regroup. So it was probably benefiting Newcastle, not Liverpool. I'm a firm believer referees need technology. We'll go back to the Thierry Henry handball. My debut at Old Trafford against Tottenham with Roy Carroll. Thanks for that, mate. Thank you. Jamie Carrick as WWE at Everton. All of these things, where they're clear, absolutely everybody in football agree that it's wrong. That's when it should be used. Factual decisions, ball over the line. Is it clearly outside the penalty area, inside? The factual stuff. What I don't like, we're seeing so much subjective decisions and football is so subjective.

56:17You'll argue and I'll argue different ways. And that's what's great about football, the debate. But I believe VAR is destroying the game on subjective decisions and we're taking too long. I can understand why the VARs are scared. Because the way the world we're living, we need perfection. And the problem is VARs, referees can make mistakes because they're human. They get one chance to see it. VAR shouldn't make a mistake because they're seeing it in slow motion and everything. Sorry, mate, it was a strange one. In the United game when Ganacho scored, he celebrated, he goes, I don't know if you've seen it, obviously, at Wembley and stuff.

56:55I was celebrating drinking. Yeah. So, look, he scores, he's celebrated, he's done his sit down on the thing and then the flag went up. Yeah. So, could somebody then... I don't mind that, though, because it allows the, you know, it allows the game to kind of... What I'm trying to say Has he been influenced and as somebody as the fourth official I think that's offside They can still do that so the fourth official and the two assistants they can still make an input so even if it's slightly delayed what the VR can't do is shout down the earpiece it's miles offside because he's watching it on a quick replay you can't really do that the VR would then you have to let the outcome go but if he's got something It felt like that's what happened somebody told him If it is it's wrong the only time I would see a delay for example which happened in the Newcastle Liverpool game was the offside of Isaac's goal just after half time as an assistant there's no way he can see the line of vision he just knows that there's a player in it I think it was Bruno Gimarez was in an offside position but I think they've had a conversation quickly the referee said he is line of vision assistant puts his flag up so you might have that slight delay if it's like that because the match officials still have to make the first call they've got to make the call because you shouldn't use VAR as a reliable to rely on you.

58:12The referee's got to make a call and then if it's wrong, clearly wrong, I'm wrong, then the VR should put a raise. Have you got a question? One of the things that really irritates me, certainly in social media, is when fans, certain groups of fans and certain football clubs are very guilty of it, but I don't want to get to that. Definitely Arsenal, right? But you nodded, so you know this is an issue of Arsenal. They believe there's this sort of this sort of clandestine creation. What was that word? Conspiracy. Like a conspiracy to stop Arsenal from winning and there's like an agenda against a football club.

58:51There is no world where that can be true, where there's several referees that have an agenda against one football club, is there? But yeah, it goes back to everything, they analyse everything. Crystal Palace fans, detesters, and quite rightly so, of course, Cup final. But it's a record. I refereed them in the playoffs against Brighton in the second leg and they win to go to Wembley in the playoffs and they get promoted. But then 12 matches in the Premier League, they don't win. Every match I refereed them after that moment, they never won. So it's one after another. It's Clattenburg again. Everybody's in a negative feeling.

59:34Clubs have that. They're obsessed. It's human. or they want the luck. Sometimes they have a lucky referee that they've never lost with. I never lost with Real Madrid. I never lost at that point with Atletico Madrid. Technically, they drew it full-time, so it's still a draw. But they want the referees that are lucky to them. So, Mark Clattenburg, Arsenal fans are the problem? No. But Arsenal, a lot of clubs have it. I remember refereeing Arsenal. I remember refereeing Arsenal and Arsene Wenger was obsessed about Diego Costa he was obsessed about him and I'm refereeing this game and Arsenal could go top just after Christmas and they were playing Chelsea were having a bad season and all the media before the game was about Diego Costa and I'm thinking to myself what a stupid thing to do Diego Costa is going to turn it on isn't he because everybody's against him and all of a sudden I think it was Mertesacker him and Diego Costa chase the ball what does Mertesacker do?

1:00:36bring him down so what do I have to do? send him off so I've sent Mertesacker off Arsenal lose the match and it's sour grapes again oh it's Arsenal you know they had the chance to win the league you know you can blame everything you want but sometimes you've actually got to take ownership and say you know what it's not about everything it's about your team aren't playing very well and we'll go back to Nottingham Forest they were near the bottom for a reason because they kept losing three twos yeah you can blame refereeing decision but sometimes you've got to take ownership yourself. Mark, who's the best referee in the Premier League right now?

1:01:07I did. I would have said if you'd asked me a month ago or two months ago I would have said Michael Oliver but Michael's really struggling after that challenge in the FA Cup with the Crystal Palace. You shouldn't be missing that. You shouldn't need VAR to see the goalkeeper coming out like that with a knee to the foot. That clearly... Sometimes I like Michael because he's like me. He wants to manage games. Players like him. He interacts. But the game's changed so much. There's no characters on the pitch anymore. When I was a referee, we had great characters. And then you wanted referees with characters.

1:01:46Now players haven't got that. What I'm watching now is I don't see players with characters, which means the referees haven't got any character. So now it's very sterile. So looking at probably the best referee at the moment, probably Anthony Taylor. But I like Chris Kavanagh. he's a good referee and I think it's Sam Barrett one of the new referees and what's interesting about Sam Barrett is Sam's an ex-player and what you can see when you analyse is that you can see he's an ex-player and he understands the game and I talked about what I said about understanding the game if you understand the game as a ref players and what they're doing it makes your life easier because you're calling more correct decisions and it's interesting Sam Barrett being an ex-player and how he's coming through players seem to react to them better.

1:02:32You told me a story in the green room I thought was really interesting about Gus Hiddink, just probably just to share it with the supporters about, you know, managing certain games. Just tell us that story. Yeah, so everybody thinks, like we'll go back to what we're saying about, you know, not everything's black and white. Football isn't a black and white sport. It's got a lot of factors and I didn't understand what goes on until I started refereeing at the highest level, but also working for Nottingham Forest and the pressures and everything else around clubs and players and everything else. It was interesting.

1:03:03I was refereeing a friendly match. I was a young referee. It was Holland against Russia. And Gus Hiddink had been, I think, a Holland-Netherlands coach before it. So he'd gone to Russia as the coach. And it was only a friendly match. You know, nice, friendly. I enjoyed the friendlies because it was a nice chance to get away for three days, like your little three-day excursion to Amsterdam. I didn't go anywhere else in Amsterdam, just to see. For clarification. so yeah so I mean I do the game and you know as a young referee you just want the game to be smooth and especially friendly nothing no injuries no big injuries because you don't want players out and you don't want any bad challenges you just want the game nice and then the federation goes oh he's a good referee and then you get invited again and you know just things open so I'm in the game and it's 2-0 in Netherlands Holland, Netherlands and the game's so easy and as a young referee I wanted to be perfect and there was probably five, if I worked out the time, a bit like John Brooks yesterday, eight minutes, where did he get that from?

1:04:00But you're looking at the time and you're thinking probably five minutes is a good, because it was one or two injuries. So I put five minutes on the board thinking nothing of it. I ward Netherlands a penalty, 3-0. And they go on and win 4-0 in injury time. And Gus Hiddink comes to us, shakes me hand, a bit like Arnie Slott did to Michael Oliver. And he said to us, Marty said, you're a very good young referee. He said, I like your style. You're a good referee. You manage the game well. He said, but I've got a problem. He said, you're crazy adding five minutes of injury time. He said, it's a friendly match.

1:04:39And he says, I've now got to go to the press conference and explain 4-0. He said, I can explain 2-0. He says, but I can't explain 4-0. And he said, you didn't need to do that. He said, now, as a top coach, now I've upset him. by in my opinion playing the correct time but he has to explain and what it did is it learned us about understanding the game more because i'm then thinking to myself well hold on if the game and people are logging said if it's 5-0 if it's 5-0 you should play the correct time at the end of the game in uefa matches and world cup matches they would say finish the game because what they didn't want is a player getting sent off or player getting injured in in when the game's finished, aggregate-wise.

1:05:25But there was an obsession that you have to play the correct time in the Premier League, but the thoughts outside of England was just finish the match, the game's finished. You know, why you play that extra time? So I've got to go in the press conference and explain all of Russia why we've got beat 4-0. And I thought to myself, that's clever. You're learning the game more that I could find a way, not deliberately find a way, but you're thinking, why did I play that injury time? why not keep him happy it's five minutes we know you're making it's a friendly game I think it's a friendly game as well I think it's right what I'm saying is if you watch Champions League I think whatever and I'll be honest I think whatever you say in here some of yous will be unhappy about it because what I support oh you should do this you should do that we moan about referees not managing a game or understanding the game and when someone's explaining about understanding the game your first thing should just play five minutes that's what I believe I know but what I'm saying I'll tell you another story I'll tell you a quick story understanding the game Here's a quick story.

1:06:21This is the problem with what you're saying. So I'm refereeing West Brom when I was coming through the systems. And it was four minutes, 45 seconds. I've watched the game back. And Lee Hughes goes into the corner with the ball. What's going to happen? Tell us what's going to happen. The game's 4-0. What's going to happen? Going through him, yeah. Right. And then I'm going to probably have a mass brawl. Then somebody will criticise I've lost control. Yes or not? Yeah, but it's not your job to... I've got to manage the after event. So if you're in employment... LAUGHTER Yeah, but if you're in employment, right, and you're in employment, you're thinking, what's the best way to get out of a situation?

1:06:59Yeah. Right? I was an estimated manager and I made a mistake on a job. I lost... Potentially I was going to lose£20 ,000. What did I do? Before the manager saw me mistake, I tried to put it right by doing other things to make it look right. You're trying other ways. Why am I going to avoid controversy? Why am I going to have to manage a mass brawl? Why am I going to have to deal with everything afterwards? when I could just blow it 4-0, 15 seconds left. Lee Hughes, you're not going to win the ball back. That team is not going to win the ball back and score at the other end. It's impossible. Common sense.

1:07:28It's not the worst thing you said. What happened? I got loads of letters. The football league got loads of letters why I finished the game 15 seconds early. I'm thinking, what is the world coming to? That I've finished because I'm trying to find. There's no way that that team's going to score to make it 4-1. There's no way West Brom's going to make it 5-0 because all Lee Hughes wants to do is put it in the corner. What's going to happen? so I finished the game everybody walks up shaking hands and you manage in context there and not the rules because I think that's your point as fans we have this conversation everybody wants the laws of the game we talked about this before but we can't we're actually football soccer if you want to talk to the Merrions football is such a huge industry financially the spectacle is so huge a nil-nil is no good for everyone.

1:08:21And not that referees are influenced by that, but the games were employed by the Premier League, PGM Well, who are funded by the Premier League. If there's no Premier League, referees don't have jobs. Players don't have... They're entertaining. You've got to score goals to entertain. We as referees in the Premier League were always praised for the way we let the game flow. But I went abroad. I couldn't referee like that abroad because I was getting destroyed because the game was different. It was more tactically. there wasn't the challenges going in but in the Premier League I think it still is there's less fouls in the Premier League than any other league So is the bar different for cards in different games?

1:08:57Because I felt like when we play Everton the referee lets things go because it's a derby gives an early yellow probably does it the other way probably subconsciously you're in big games and people say you shouldn't be cautioning I sent up Boyatt and everybody said I spoiled the game I didn't spoil the game but you've also got But what I'm looking at is I would love, and probably I was wrong, but I loved coming off at the end of the game thinking that was a great game. When I saw a great goal, I used to go to a player. Celebrate. Brilliant. Is it Mike Dean that used to celebrate? Yeah, he celebrated.

1:09:33You wouldn't blow early at 1-1 though, would you? No. So that's the thing. 4-0. No, no, everything's got context in it and football isn't black and white. The laws aren't black and white. All I'm trying to do today is give you an understanding and how referees think we try, we're best every week, we want to make the decisions correct, but unfortunately we can't make everything right. I just don't think good hitting should have come up to you and said a word. What's that? I don't think good hitting should have come up to you. But if you think about it logically, take your fan away from it. If you look at it from a common sense and a management point of view, all I want to do in that friendly, what do I want to do in that friendly?

1:10:10What's my main aim in that friendly? A, to get me fitness levels. B, to come out without no controversy and B, to be accepted by everybody. Because if you're accepted by everybody, it means... And one thing you learn in life is if you make mistakes, or huge mistakes, that club, like Everton, I didn't referee Everton for eight years because they didn't want me to referee their matches. Quite rightly so, because I was so poor. So if I kept making big errors or tried to destroy clubs because I'm trying to be so perfect, them clubs are not going to want Mark Klatenberg to referee. How in the end am I going to referee in the Premier League?

1:10:46Well, Stuart Atwell, many, many years ago, wasn't accepted by a lot of clubs. In the end, what happened? He was sacked. He lost his job. And the problem with refereeing as well, which you don't understand, is I was an estimate manager electrician when I was younger. And I made the decision I wanted to be a professional referee. Once I'd been a professional referee for one or two years, that's my industry gone. I can't go back to my industry. I've got no other industry. Where do I go? once you're a referee you either go into refereeing coaching which is lowly paid or you're finished OK I went to Saudi no I went to Saudi I went to Saudi first I'm not sure I went to Saudi before everybody else Mark last question before we go what rule in football would you change I love the idea and I don't know what everybody thinks but I love the idea I don't like how they're going to deal with it but I do like the idea of the goalkeeper 8 seconds didn't give a corner I don't like that After three seconds, five, it's going to look terrible.

1:11:47I think referees will be a bit slower with the counting. I think that's not ridiculous. I do think it needs improving because goalkeepers are taking 22 seconds at some taking of kicks. But the other two things I always wanted, and I hope that they bring in, because football is always about entertainment, having as much playing time as possible. I think when I first got on the Champions League it was only 40 something minutes a game 90 minute game 40 something minutes so you're losing 40 something minutes in time wasting absorbing time delays whatever the other thing the two things I would really want is the referee to have the power instead of giving a yellow card for a player who's taking too long to throw in because I explained and it happened to me I used to laugh players what they would do walk up the line with the ball knowing that the referee is going to send them back so that's another 15 seconds cha-ching he gets back and he goes So, ref, is it from here?

1:12:41Yeah. It happens. Watch. And then he gets the ball and he delays, he delays, he delays, he delays. And if he's not on four yellow cards, what's he going to do? He'll take the yellow card. No one, by the time the referee runs over, bing, with the yellow card. He then gets out his big book. He writes his number in. He puts his book away. He puts it in his pocket. He gets back into position. What does the player do? Another 10 seconds. He throws the ball in. So we've wasted another 30, 40 seconds. He's won. The player's won. The power should be. The power should be. The referee should just reverse the decision.

1:13:15So if I say to Paul, Paul, get the ball in. And he's laughing at us. And I know what he's doing. I know his tactic. And he doesn't get the ball in. The opposite way. And if you're defending, you're not going to, you're not wanting to give the ball back, would you? So let's change and give the referee the power to bring to reverse the three-ins. And the other one is, which irritates us as the goalkeeper corner. Players now are just trotting over for a corner. and the referee's scared to give him a yellow card for time-wasting. So if they don't go quick enough and you warn them and you say, take the corner now or I'm going to reverse it and give a goal kick, what will the player do?

1:13:51He's going to run over and get the ball in quicker. In the opposite way of the goalkeeper, if he's taking too long at a goal kick, bring the goal kick in and if he doesn't do it, then you just give a corner. All you're doing is you're not saying you're going to use it because players know that you've got the power to do it at the moment. than know the way around the law by just delaying the swing. Mark, brilliant. Thanks for coming in. Really enjoyed that. And that's the end of another episode of The Fan Debate, brought to you by Skybet.

1:14:23This is the final edition of the quiz, Flav. So you know what you've got to beat. It's a lot. And we've all got our fingers crossed that Flav can end Tottenham's trophy drought. So, Scors is at the clock. Ready? Right. Gareth Bale signed for Tottenham from which club? Southampton. Which player scored Tottenham's first Premier League hat-trick? Sherinham. Yes. What is Tottenham's motto? Andreas Fosser, to their to do. Yeah. Name three of the four Croatians that have played for Tottenham in the Premier League. Chorluka, Modric and Crenshaw. Yeah. Nuno won August Manager of the Month in 2021, but how many games did he last in the dugout at Spurs?

1:15:0515, 17 or 19? 15 No Who scored five goals for Spurs against Wigan in 2009? The Foe Yeah Harry came on three Premier League golden boots Which years did he win them? 16, 17 No Who scored Tottenham's first goal at the new Tottenham Stadium? Son Yeah Who assisted Lucas Moura's decisive third goal to send Tottenham into the Champions League final? Dele Alli Yeah Finish the name of this former Postacoglu team? The Whittles, Sea, Lions, Springboks or Zebras? Zebras. Yeah. Which musical duo released Hotshot Tottenham? Waddle and Hoddle. No, Chas and Dave. In which season did Tottenham... LAUGHTER In which season did Tottenham first compete in the Champions League?

1:15:522010-11. Yes. What song does Spurs walk out to a white-eyed lane? McNamara's band. Jewel of the Fates, John Williams, whoever it is. Harry Kane's the only Premier League appearance, Kane, for which club on loan? Sorry, what was that? Which Harry Kane's other Premier League appearances? No, Norwich. Oh, my God. But it's not Jewel of Fate. It was. I'm sure it's... I might be wrong. What song does Spurs walk out to as White Hart Lane? It says Jewel of the Fate, John Williams. It's Jewel of... You can't... You can't make a point, though, because when I correct you one of mine, I never got it. I'm not bothered.

1:16:31I don't care. You didn't get late, anyway. That's just me. What did he get? Nine. That's good, I thought. That's above Rory. Now don't, Vlad, Vlad. Above Adam. I've got nine.

1:16:46Thank you.

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