Daniel Levy: Ange, Thomas Frank & The Future of Tottenham | The Overlap Exclusive

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2:37We're here in the Tottenham Stadium. We're waiting for Daniel to leave it. And, yeah, I think we've asked Daniel a lot. Oh, hello. How are we? Are you good? Yeah, I'm good, thank you. The stadium, I've never seen it, but it's amazing. Do you get a summer? No. You don't? No. Well, it's transferring, isn't it? Yeah, someone. Well, you've been on the other side, haven't you? Because you've been a player, you've been a manager. I'm a portrait-time gamekeeper. So you know all the problems? Yeah.

3:13Do you not believe you get the credit that you deserve for that part of the club that you're in control of? When I'm not here, I'm sure I'll get the credit. You have suffered protests in the last six months. Does it hurt? Of course it hurts. You look at the other clubs that are actually overspending and think, they're crazy. I wouldn't say they're crazy, but I think it's not sustainable. Harry's got a bigger kitchen than I've got at home in his box. We as Tottenham Hotspur, I can assure you, would give up some of our revenues if it was the good of the game over the long term. It was nothing to do with the money.

3:39It was all about, we needed a trophy. And is this the greatest thing that you've ever done? Yeah, and I'm not doing it again, I can assure you.

3:57Have you been around the stadium before? So I've been around, obviously I've been to the media parts of the stadium. I've been near the dressing rooms. I mean, it's incredible. I mean, when we come on match days, you get a Tottenham game, you think, right, okay. So you know about this floor? I don't know anything about this floor. So this is the old stadium. Oh, wow. All crushed. So we wanted to make sure we had a link with the old and White Hart Lane and the history. So it's like a concrete or a resin? It's quite a history. it's crushed concrete and then it's uh well i didn't know that's moved afterwards do you know one thing that strikes me about this stadium is the detail how involved were you in terms of just every single part of it well i used to head up a meeting every tuesday with the contractors and all the designers yeah so it was we were all very engaged you must look at what's happened now to interest rates and cost of construction and think thank goodness we got in just before that because you were right on the brink of it weren't you in terms of getting there just two or three years before it went like this luck the mark we just hit the market at the right time um yeah interest rates were very low as we managed to borrow yeah 35 year money at just over two and half percent wow the construction costs though since covid and since particularly the ukraine war started have gone up so i reckon this stadium state to build is probably in excess of two billion pounds today i've just sat on the man's united stadium task force about their stadium and the quoted costs, not necessarily from the club, but just reported around£2 billion for a£100 ,000 capacity stadium.

5:24Do you doubt those costs? You must do if it's... Let me tell you something. Whatever the cost consultants say, when you actually come to actually build it, and because of inflation over time, it will always cost more. Yeah. Always. I mean, I've done small construction projects compared to this, but there's sometimes when costs creep up that you get to that feeling of, it's a little bit too much. Did you have any of those moments when this stadium was being built where you thought, I'm getting a little bit deeper than I thought. Hundreds of times. Because, you know, when we started this stadium, the original construction cost was about 400 million.

5:56When we first started the project. For this whole build. Because what happens when you design a building is you kick adding things. And then it takes longer, and there's always problems in the ground that you weren't anticipating. It just always costs more.

6:14So we have some great boxes here. Yeah. So, in fact, when we go into this box here, this used to be Harry Kane's box. Oh, did it? Yeah. Harry.

6:26Jeez, Harry. My mum and dad would have been happy if they were watching me at United and I'd give them a box like this every week. I just got him a couple of seats in the main stand. Wow. Harry's got a bigger kitchen than I've got at home in his box. Liar. I'll see you on the house. I must say, I've never been in one of these before and it's absolutely incredible. So what have we got on at the moment? Is that setting up for a concert? It's a concert. Who's coming on? 50 Cent. Are you a 50 Cent fan? No. Ask my kids.

7:02Dan, I don't think there's anybody better to talk about the business of football. You're the longest serving, I think, CEO, chair, owner of a Premier League club. What do you think about the current state of the game in terms of just generally across the board, PSR, sustainability issues, the sort of stress that exists within the game? That's a very heavy question for this time of the afternoon. I would say we're going through a period of change. The league is the most competitive league in the world, definitely more competitive now than it's ever been. We're now going to have some government intervention, regulation, which personally I'm not in favour of.

7:44but it's coming, so we have to accept it and embrace it. I think sustainability is obviously fundamental to the game, for the whole of the pyramid. Multi-club ownership is another issue that's very, very important today because it really didn't exist five years ago. You're against it? I think we have to be very careful. I think the idea that one club is involved in lots of different clubs with the money involved today, I think it has to be controlled carefully. Are you talking about the distribution of costs amongst the actual multiple organisations? I think the way, you know, because we have financial control measures and it can be abused.

8:28It worries me a little bit because I think that there's so much money in the game now and you only need one owner to do something inappropriate and it would impact the whole confidence from sponsors and broadcasters in the European game. So I think it needs very tight control. The EFL deal has been on the table now for four or five years. I'm sure you've got your reasons to not do a deal with the EFL, but why has that deal not been done? It's surely simple to deal with the EFL and try and bring a deal in. Why has that deal not been done? The Premier League would do a deal tomorrow with the EFL.

9:01The issue is that the EFL don't want to do the deal with us. But why would that be? Because there's not agreement between perhaps the executive of the EFL and the clubs within the EFL. But I can assure you the Premier League would do a deal today. At what level though? The one that removes the cliff edges or one that just basically gives a little bit more money? I wouldn't say a little bit more money. Substantial amounts of money. We totally accept our responsibility in the pyramid in various ways, whether they be levies, whether it be a percentage of our TV revenues, whether it be transfer fees.

9:36But, you know, you need two parties to make a deal. I know, but Daniel, you've just alluded to cliff edge between top six and 14 and with 14 and the championship parachute clubs and the parachute clubs and the other championships. Do we agree on one thing, that the cliff edges need to go across the game? I do agree with that, although the deal with the EFL doesn't solve the cliff edge within the Premier League. No, I mean, I get that. You've obviously got the voting system in the Premier League of the, is it the 14 and 6 rule would you change the constitution personally i would but it's impossible to change it today in my opinion i would say most owners only think about themselves they think about their club which is not necessarily wrong and they think very short term i think that if there was an arbitrator that was brought in and i don't believe it can be government an arbitrator was brought in say what is the right but who can it be then if it's not government because there's no one else that can really implement a rule.

10:30If you say we need an arbitrator, who can that be if it's not government? I believe it should have been the FA. I think the FA should have taken a much stronger lead in bringing football together. But the FA has no power to be able to organise the Premier League clubs. The Premier League clubs would never accept that. I don't think that's true. It's all about personalities. I think the FA needed to take a strong lead in bringing all the clubs together. So, this is a personal view. I feel very strongly about it. I agree with you, I think the FA are the right party to govern the game. But I feel to get what would be the FA that power back, there's going to need to be a period of independent regulation.

11:09I think some corrections, and these cliff edges removed hopefully, and then the FA becomes empowered to be the governor of the game and hopefully the regulator can step away. That's my view. Maybe naive, you're smoking at me. But I'm interested to know how you would all of a sudden parachute the FA into this powerful role and give up the power that the clubs have currently got? I think it's too late now. I think there was an opportunity where the FA could have taken the leadership and brought all of us together. And it didn't happen. Take me back to the multi-club ownership point because I don't want to get specifically stuck on City because I know you're not going to talk about other clubs.

11:47But there are 115 charges that are hanging over one club at this moment in time where multi-club organisation, potential breaches or charges have been placed against them. What's your view on that? Are you a vociferous owner of another club that speaks out on these issues in Premier League meetings? I think it would be really unfair of me to talk about another club within the Premier League. All I would say is it's going through a process which I think has gone on for far too long and it needs to be brought for the good of the game to a conclusion one way or another. Why has it gone on so long?

12:22Because it's ridiculous. I think it's a shame that it's gone on so long it's shameful it's gone on so long not a shame, it's shameful that we can't get our house in order quicker why can it not? If the Premier League can't sort out an issue like this with one of their own clubs how can they be charged with running the entirety of the game? Well, as I said, I think it was the FA that should have brought us all together I agree, it's unfortunate that we haven't managed to resolve things internally rather than really the recourse to the lawyers because the lawyers are going to earn a lot of money out of this.

12:57You mentioned at the start of your answer going back a few minutes ago that we're entering into a period of change. What is that period of change in football? I think government regulation. When you think about where we are today, the Premier League is one of Britain's best exports and how many industries can you think about where there's been government regulation and that's been good? Banking. yeah but you're in that instance you're protecting people's deposits right here we're protecting i mean if you go back to the banking crisis 2008 i think that regulation since then has definitely helped what why do you think regulate why let me turn it around to you why do you think regulation is going to be good for the fans i feel that like you someone needs to be an arbitrator i haven't got faith in the fa at this moment in time that they're strong enough as an authority to be able to govern the what would be quite powerful people who are involved in the Premier League and the ownership of clubs and I don't think and you said it before yourself that every club owner rightly so looks after themselves so who's looking after the wider game and I do feel a an element of the game is going the game is creating these fractures cliff edges whatever you want to call them, whereby it's becoming more distinct and it's becoming more difficult to actually get the game back together again.

14:21It's a last chance saloon. I think government is the only way of being able to actually get the game closer together. I think it's the fans' last chance in terms of protection around ticket prices, protection around affordability, accessibility, their club being able to have a competitive chance of getting up the leagues by still having fair distributions of revenue I just feel it's the last chance, I genuinely do feel that now I wouldn't want government intervention into football but I've seen some of the attempts to take the game away from the whole of the pyramid in the last few years and it scares me to death I just think when you look at the cost of that organisation that's going to go into the public sector but how much will it cost Daniel?

15:03£40 million they're saying okay let's let's say that's the cost of a right back now it's the cost of it's not a lot in Premier League terms let's come back here in 10 years time and see if that's really the cost and let's look back it'll be very interesting but now I don't I just don't believe in government you'll know numbers better than me though what are the how much money is paid to agents every year in the Premier League far too much and it's how much is it give us the number I actually don't know the number I think it's 350 million hundreds of millions yeah how much money every single year is getting spent on lawyers' fees for the Premier League to fight against their own clubs.

15:41I mean, that's£100 million as well. I accept that. I'm not in favour of government regulation. I think there was another way of solving the problem. And actually, a lot of the things that the Premier League have put in place, the earnings and directors test, there's various things now that we're doing, various fan charters, where lots of the issues that the regulation was going to cover, we're already doing.

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18:40growtherapy.com slash ACAST. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan.

18:53How has this transformed in terms of the pitch disappears, does it, underneath? Underneath all this protective measures on the pitch is actually the NFL pitch. Right. There's an artificial pitch there. And then above this would be the grass pitch. And when we're in concert mode or NFL mode, the grass pitch goes under the famous south stand. And it can stay there for up to 10 to 14 days. Right. It has ventilation, irrigation, special mowers. So it's a pretty unique piece of kit. When the grass pitch is here, that's a Formula One track. Right. For go-cars. Not two other rounds. Yeah. A number of years ago.

19:29You may or may not remember this. I said you were the best operator in football. Do you remember that comment? I don't. Thank you anyway. But I said that with the fact that your controllables are your stadium, your training ground and your revenues. The uncontrollable is the football. Unfortunately. Yeah. Do you not believe you get the credit that you deserve for that part of the club that you're in control of? I think it's one of those situations. When I'm not here, I'm sure I'll get the credit. So you think you'll have to basically sort of... I think it's one of these things that when you come here and you look at this wonderful building and the fact that other clubs now are trying to copy what we're doing should be a sign that actually maybe we did something a bit bold and right.

20:11And is this the greatest thing that you've ever done? Yeah, and I'm not doing it again, I can assure you. And do you believe it's protected the club for another generation? I think this is a symbol of Tottenham Hotspur on the global map. I think it's fantastic for the local community. You know, the employment that we're creating is all to this stadium. We're very conscious that we want this area to improve economically, and the activity that this stadium brings is very significant for the local. Do you think you need some support on that from the local council in terms of investment and what needs to happen?

20:46So I would say a few things. This area is quite unrecognisable compared to 10 years ago. Can it improve? Yes. We've now got the Euros coming here in 28. We're the only club stadium in London. I think we'll see some public sector investment in the infrastructure, which I think is obviously a sign of things to come in the future. in terms of improvement, we need greater private sector investment. We need the public sector to do their bit, which I think is going to happen now.

21:22You have been exemplary in respect of following the rules of sustainability, the PSR, but quite a lot of clubs now are right on the edge of it. What's happened in the last three, four, five years? Why has this changed? where all of a sudden we've got Aston Villa, Everton, Nottingham Forest, Manchester United apparently on the edge of Newcastle, all now not able to operate in the way in which they would like. What's happened? So I think, honestly, I think we're going through a transition period. I think once everyone gets used to the rules, it will settle down. What are the rules that have changed?

22:00Well, the wages and amortisation, that's a percentage of turnover. In Europe, it's a cap of 70%. In the Premier League, it's a higher percentage when you're allowed a bit more tolerance. They're quite complicated rules and it's not easy having two sets of rules. But I think that two or three years from now, things will settle down. And I think football will be in a better place. Do you look at other clubs sometimes and think, because you do get criticised for not spending enough on players. I know you do get, you might not like that. But do you look at the other clubs that are actually overspending and think, they're crazy what are they doing?

22:38Not to name a club not to name any clubs just do you look at other clubs and think that's mad I wouldn't say they're crazy but I think it's not sustainable which is why they end up in problems and we all know that if everyone overspends it's a zero sum game because no one benefits from it I think there has to be rules and I think people need to stick to them What do you say to Newcastle so I look at Newcastle specifically they've got owners who are obviously very wealthy they're capped at the moment by the monies that they spend because their revenues are lower than the other clubs in the league.

23:09How does a Newcastle get to a point whereby they can invest to the same level as Tottenham, Arsenal, Liverpool, United so that they can become Premier League champions? Do you worry about the fact that we've created a ceiling with PSR rules that are actually holding clubs like, say, Villa and Newcastle back? Because just to say, improve your revenues, you know it's not that easy. You're trying to do it here and you are doing it here. But it's difficult for them to do that, isn't it? Yeah, but isn't that a testament if you look at what we've done? We haven't had somebody pumping hundreds of millions into the club.

23:38We've done it all on our own. We have been entrepreneurial and we have increased our revenues to enable us to compete the best we can today. We're all in a chain. I accept there are certain clubs that are bigger than us, but this league is very competitive and we can still beat a club with bigger revenues. I'm going to make you the regulator for five minutes. What would you do to English football? what two or three things would you do to English football if you were controlling the game? So I think one of the biggest threats is related party sponsorship. I think that's the area that has to be controlled.

24:17Because if you end up having clubs that are owned by states, and I have no issue with that at all in principle, but they can do deals with themselves. And that puts them in a very competitive advantage compared to everybody else. And I think that's an area that has to be looked at. but the Premier League voted it down didn't they so the Premier League no there is a rule at the moment it's been challenged as we know and related party transactions but I think that's an area of concern but you're talking about two clubs there specifically aren't you I think yeah but it could be more clubs in the future is that the one thing that you would change at this moment in time I think it's not just in the UK it's across Europe I think there should be a European rule that there should be some more detailed control over related party transactions.

25:04And what about the rest of the game in terms of the parachute payments, for instance? Because parachute payments, I mean, I know that you finished close to the bottom, but you're never going to go down, let's be clear. Tottenham are not going to go down. So what do you say to the stress that that causes through the game? I believe you have to have parachute payments, but I do accept the principle that maybe the curve needs to be a fairer curve from top to bottom. because if a club gets relegated and there's no parachute payments, the golf is so enormous that they're bankrupt. But if there's no cliff edge and there's no big drop, you don't need a parachute.

25:44Why does club number 20 in the Premier League get 100 million and club number one in the Championship gets 7 or 8 million without parachute payments? What we're talking about is a smoothing. It needs to be smoothed all the way from top to bottom, including within the Premier League. I mean, I'm a believer that there should be fairer distribution, but I also believe if the Premier League do pass more money down, that there should be some restriction on costs put in place within the Championship, and in the other leagues, League 1 and League 2, so we don't end up in the same position again. Surely it's a case of smoothing that curve out, as you say, having what would be, and I feel poked to term gamekeeper here having been a football player, having what would be relegation clauses within every player's contract that is mandatory, which means that actually when you do drop that level down from position 20 to 21, which is in the Championship, that the player wages drop down straight away.

26:37And it just becomes a standard across the game, which means that the game can become sustainable. Do you not see that as a methodology? Totally. There should absolutely be relegation clauses in all player contracts. But Daniel, I'm listening to you here. Let's fix the game here and now. If you've got this distribution of money across the whole of the 92 clubs, and we have this very smooth curve between the Premier League, Championship League 1 and League 2 where there are standard relegation clauses inputted into all contracts of players which means that if you've relegated your wage drops down to your relative income in the Championship.

27:11We have a game then that becomes sustainable as long as obviously costs are managed and that can be something that can happen. Yeah, but then you have to have, so then you come back to the constitution of the Premier League in order to have a relegation clause that's mandatory in every single contract you need to get 14 clubs to vote in favour. But why can't we get the game to come together to vote for things that would mean that the whole entirety of the game would be protected? Because at the moment it's this. And that's why parachutes are needed. The problem is football clubs, understandably, owners are taking a short-term view, they care about their club only, and actually sometimes you may have to give up something for the good of the game.

27:53we as Tottenham Hotspur I can assure you would give up some of our revenues if it was the good of the game over the long term

28:04This is the main singing end here We were the first club to bring in stage standing and the beauty of the way we've designed it when you're seated over there you don't even know there's rails Yeah yeah No you don't Aesthetically it looks really good You're obviously a perfectionist there's one part of this stadium that you look at and think oh I wish I'd just done that differently I mean it seems wrong to ask a question about what you think you should have done differently but then just thinking about how you've planned this there's a couple of pillars that i wish they weren't there at the moment pillars pillars when we drive in under the under the stadium it's a bit tight you have to avoid the structural engineer a building i've just built in manchester the sort of optimum width from column to column is nine meters once you go beyond that you're starting to go into big transfer beams and sort of it comes We've got that in this class.

28:53You've got it in there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So when we go downstage, we'll see. OK, let's have a look at that then. I never thought I'd be interviewing you talking about transfer beams. Transfer windows, not transfer beams.

29:15You said you went to America and to other countries to look at stadiums for inspiration. Where is the one place that you went that you thought, yeah, I want to model what we're doing here around this? So I wouldn't say there was one stadium that we needed to be like this. I think Dortmund, in terms of our south stand. OK, the Yellow Wall. Yeah, the Yellow Wall, that's where we got the south stand idea from. And the rest of it, the architects used to come back to us and say it's not possible. And we used to say, make it possible. Which part wasn't possible? The actual? Oh, so many things. I mean, even the roof here, we said we didn't want a plastic roof, A, because it's not good for the environment, but B, it goes yellow after five years.

29:53Bold, yeah, it does, yeah. I said, I want it in glass. Impossible. And eventually they found somebody, a company... That would do it. That would do it in glass. So, obviously very conscious of what we do with the local community. So, one of our ideas was to have a craft beer. So, we teamed up with a company called Beaver Town, which was a craft beer company that was based locally. And we then said to them, well, we'd like to brew our own beer in the stadium. So this is our own brewery in a joint venture with Beaver Town. So you actually bought into this company, are they? We didn't buy into it, unfortunately.

30:29But we did a joint venture in terms of all the beer that sold in the stadium. OK. Have they got a sample for us, have they? So this is the tap room where people can, on a match day, people can sample all the beers. And then you can see the brewery in the back. But when you come here on a match day, the atmosphere in this stand in particular is really good. Underneath? Yeah. The way in which you talk about the passion and the fans, obviously you have suffered protests in the last six months, eight months. I must really dig deep, that. The people, obviously, you've been chairman of this club now, owner of this club for 25 years.

31:04This is your 25th year. Does it hurt? Of course it hurts, but their pain is also my pain. I want to win. and when we're not playing well and we're not winning, believe me, I suffer as well. Does it impact your week? I mean, I know it from a small scale, obviously, with Salford, but when you go over on a Saturday night and Tottenham haven't won... Ruins the whole weekend. You just... If it impacts your home life, you just... Yeah, yeah, it's horrible. You're in this to win. Yeah. And when you don't win, it's no fun. Here we go. First team dressing room. Do you know, dressing rooms never cease to amaze me now how good they are.

31:40Wow. I remember the old White Hart Lane. A bit different, eh? Yeah, just a bit. The most difficult part of a football club is the football side, there's no doubt about that. And you said recently that you wanted Tottenham Hotspur to win a Premier League title and a Champions League. You've very rarely gone on record to say that. What's made you come out in the last couple of months and say that and make that quite sort of bold statement? Because there isn't a lot of evidence over the last 20 years of achieving that. Sir, nothing has changed in terms of our ambition. It's always been the case. I think that having won the Europa League, thank you to Ange, you get a taste of it, but it's not enough.

32:20And it's never been enough. I mean, we've been, I think, in 16 or 17 semifinals, seven finals, and we haven't won enough. We now need to use that as a springboard to keep winning, because that's what this is all about. We've won two trophies in the last 20-plus years. is we've been so close so many times. Why is that? Do you know, I can't really answer that because I'm not the one that picks the team, motivates the team, picks the players. What do you say to people who say that you're an incredible businessman, I don't think anyone disputes that, but that you put your hands on the football side too much?

33:01Do you feel that's right? Or do you feel like you've got the right balance between what you do on the football side versus the business side? I would say that's completely unfair. So for people that have worked in this club and understand the workings of the football side of this club, I do not interfere at all in the decision-making on this player versus that player. It is always the coach, always the technical staff. The only thing I get involved in is when they decide which player they want to buy, for instance, or which player they want to sell, I will go out and do my very best for this football club.

33:35but I'm not interfering in the football decisions In terms of the actual whether it's the sporting director or the manager you obviously decide who is selected in those roles that you are quite intensely involved in that area That's no different for any other club It's not just me, it's a board When we went through the decision to appoint Thomas there were a number of people involved in that decision of which I was just one of them Who makes the decision on Thomas in the end? Who makes the decision on Ange? How's that come about? Ultimately, the decision is always going to be... It has to rest with me, but it's always a collective decision.

34:12And who are those? Who are the people? We have a board of directors, but under the board of directors we have a group of technical staff, and they advise. And in terms of just going back to Ange, because I know that one thing I have to say is that I know how difficult it will have been for you to have made that decision. And actually, as much as I can say this, I thought the statement that you made around Ange going was a lot more detailed than you'd ever see, I think, in respect of seeing a manager let go. Did that come from you? Because you felt like you had to communicate more in terms of the thought process.

34:45Yeah, I think we had to explain, you know, Ange just won us a trophy, a European trophy, which is highly significant. It's always going to be in our history. And yet we were asking him to leave. But we can't lose sight of the fact we finished 17th in the league. We lost 22 Premier League games. And it's impossible for Tottenham to be in that position. And so we had to take the emotion out of it. And we had to give some data points as to why we decided to do what we did. You've been there. Whichever level you do it, no one likes telling somebody you're losing their job. But it is the nature of football.

35:20You know, we're there to win. And yes, we won a Euro trophy. And it was fantastic. But we also need to win on all fronts. and the Premier League says it all. You've been doing this now for 25 years. What makes you think this time it's right with Thomas? Whenever you appoint a coach, you always believe it's right and you need a lot of ingredients for it to be right. I think Thomas is a highly intelligent individual. I think he's got a fantastic way about him in terms of communication. I think he will be great at developing both young players and older players and making them better. He gets the style of football he wants to play.

36:04He understands that, you know, Rome wasn't built in today. We haven't said to him, you've got to win the league this year. All we know is... When does he have to win it? As soon as possible, but no pressure. Look, we just want to compete at the highest level. Will he get the funds to compete with the monstrous amounts that some of the other clubs are spending? You know, we will support him to the best of our ability. If you look at transfer fees, we've been in the top four spenders since the stadium opened. I think we spent close on 700 million net on new players. This isn't just about money. This is about some luck, having the right balance in the team, having the right coach.

36:48There's a lot of things that have to come together. And so I very much hope that Thomas will bring all the right ingredients and bring this team to where it belongs, which is right at the top.

37:01Whoa! On a match day is obviously heaving with fans. If we walk around the other side, there's a very old building called Warmington House. I think it's about 400 years old. Oh, so is it listed? Yeah. Yeah, we had to keep it. We've restored it. Yeah. And it's now an art gallery. Right. This is the old... Wow. It's a beautiful building that we've completely restored. It's brilliant. I love the way in which sometimes modern, the integration of the old brick with the modern and the sort of glass link. Hi, how are you? Good to meet you. Welcome. So you're now in OOF. We're the only contemporary art gallery in a football stadium anywhere in the world.

37:41It was an amazing and rare opportunity for us to put like a Spurs section into an exhibition, something we've never done before. These two photos especially are iconic Spurs photos. So those gates we're just having restored and I think they come back on site next month. Yeah. You've still got them? Yeah, we've still got them. What I love about this here is the actual, I love the formation. The two at the back and then all of those are forwards, aren't they? And that's on Main Road in Manchester. In Manchester. So someone, the Tottenham fans, gone down there and just basically... Yeah. Oh, well done.

38:13And there's also so much amazing history in this photo. There's the conservative poster. There's amazing old film posters. But conservative. Yeah. and then... That is so true. It's his quote. He said that and so we turned that into a Barbara Kruger homage. Nothing says first, like joy comes from suffering.

38:42Well, it was a great night for you, that's for sure. It's the best night you've had as a Tottenham owner? Yeah, it has to be. yeah also I think when we came back here a few days later and we did the parade here that was the outpouring of emotion was for everyone to see around the world it was amazing in the lead up to the game and it annoyed me a little bit in respect of the last part of the season actually when the title was already done that we seemed the games all seem to be played or promoted around there's 100 million at stake or there is Champions League football at stake when it was going into the sort of did it sort of feel like that for you as well in terms of there's a trophy to win but also there's a huge financial prize at the end of it it was nothing to do with the money I can assure you it was all about we needed a trophy and you think that mattered more on the night to Tottenham and did you feel that or not I promise you the money was like you realise that after a few days later that we're in Champions League but it was about getting the trophy and it's two trophies now that you've had since you've come to Tottenham.

39:53What do you think you need to do now in this next three years? What would you say success would be in this next three years to build off the back of this? We need to compete at the highest level. We need to consistently be trying to win trophies because that's what this is all about. It's a beautiful trophy, by the way. Nice. That's lovely. It's seriously heavy. I've never seen this one before.

40:16Your proudest moment? Winning this.

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