Dele: "Now is the Time to Talk"

0:00What was the point where you started to feel that it wasn't right? Like one morning I woke up, I had to go training. This is when he'd stopped playing me. I remember just looking in the mirror. I mean, it sounds dramatic, but I was literally staring in the mirror. And I was asking if I could retire now. At 24, you know, doing the thing I love. For me, that was heartbreaking.

0:23It's always been me against myself in everything. I was winning the fight, smiling, showing that I was happy. but inside I was definitely losing the battle. Trauma is trauma and your body registers it in the same way no matter what it is. If you knew about my life you would understand that a little bit more. I want to help other people to know that they're not alone in the feelings they've got and doesn't make you weak to get help.

0:57Today we're going to interview Dele Alli. I worked with Dele whilst I was with England as a coach. I absolutely loved him when he was with England. He was playing under Rixio Potatino at Spurs. Just in that number 10 role, wasn't it? Running forward, always joining Harry Kane. I just thought it was the real deal. It was almost like a modern-day Brian Robson, modern-day Roy Keane in terms of a box-to-box midfield player. But it has no doubt changed since 2018-19. In the last few years, Dele has, obviously from a football perspective, He's got nowhere near the levels that he was playing at back in that sort of mid-2015, 2016 season.

1:32So, you know, we want to know why that is. You know, I'm concerned about him because when I see someone drop off like he has from the ability that he has, then you always think what's going on in the lad's life. There's been a blip and I have to say there's a fascination with him still, I think. People want to ask that question, what's happened, Dele? Are you OK? Dele and his team have reached out in this last few days to say that it is the right time now to speak and we're obviously delighted to bring him in today to talk about it. It'll be a very different type of overlap. Obviously, everybody's asked that question in the last 12 to 18 months, what's happened with Dele, and today we're going to find out.

2:14Dele, welcome to the overlap. Obviously, I worked with you in 2015-16 with England and obviously seen what's happened in the last 12 to 18 months, the way in which your football's gone. First question is, are you OK? Yeah, I think it's a question I've definitely been asked a lot. But I think this is probably the first time in a long time that I can say, yeah, and mean it. I think mentally I'm probably in the best place I've ever been. And, yeah, I feel good. Obviously injured at the minute, but football, I've got that passion back for football. I mean, yeah, so I'm doing really well. Just tell us what's been happening with you in the last sort of six to 12 months.

2:54You say you're feeling good now, but obviously it means that you weren't feeling well at a certain point. Yeah, I think now's probably the right time for me to tell people what's been going on. It's tough to talk about it because it's quite recent and it's something I've kind of hid for a long time. And I'm scared to talk about it, but I think it's the right thing to do. So when I come back from Turkey, I came in and I found out I needed an operation and I was in a bad place mentally. And yeah, I decided to go to like a modern day rehab facility for mental health. They deal with like addiction, mental health and trauma because it was something that I felt like it was time for me.

3:46I think with things like that, you can't be told to go there. I think you have to know and you have to make the decision yourself, else it's not going to work. And, yeah, I was just, to be honest, I was caught in a bad cycle. You know, I was relying on things that were doing me harm. And, yeah, I think I was waking up every day and I was winning the fight, you know, going into training, smiling, showing that I was happy. But inside, I was definitely, you know, losing the battle. And it was time for me to change it, because when I got injured and they told me I needed surgery, I could feel the feelings I had when the cycle begins and I didn't want it to happen anymore.

4:25So I went there. I went there for six weeks and, you know, Everton were amazing about it. You know, they supported me 100 % and I'll be grateful for them forever. I think whatever happens in the future, I think for them to be so open and honest and understanding, I think I couldn't have asked for anything more in that time when I was probably making the biggest decision of my life. Something I was scared to do, I think. But I'm happy I'd done it, and to be honest, I couldn't have expected it to go the way it did, I think. Before, you hear about it, it has this whole stigma around it, and it's something people don't want to do.

5:05Going into rehab, it definitely sounds scary, but I could never have imagined how much I'd get from it and how much it would help me mentally because I was in a bad place. I think, you know, a lot happened when I was younger that I could never understand, I could never figure out. And I was doing stupid things that I blamed myself for. But really going there and learning about it, it was never really in my control. Understanding it and learning, and it's helped me a lot with other things, you know, to do with my family, like my blood family. I let go of some things and some bad feelings I was holding, and that would slow me down and hold me back.

5:45So, yeah, that's where I've been. I'm laughing. I learned that this is my defence as well, laughing and smiling. Just on the timeline, how recent was this that you went into rehab? So I got out three weeks ago, I think. That recent? Three weeks ago, yeah. And if I'm being honest, I probably wouldn't have wanted to talk about it this soon. I think maybe give it a little bit more time. But I am feeling in a really good place and I feel strong enough to do this. I think it's important. maybe could have done with a little bit more time in terms of when I was talking about it but unfortunately the way the world is now, you know, the tabloids that they got they found out and they was calling my team a lot and they were telling you know, that they knew where I was and stuff and the decision that I maybe made in the past when I didn't really care about what people thought and I didn't care about being understood, I would have just let them write what they wanted to write and put their own story on which they do a lot of the time but it's not the reality and also you know I want to help other people to know that they're not alone in the feelings they've got and that you can talk to people it doesn't make you weak to get help to be vulnerable it's uh there's a lot of strength in that so to come out and to to share my story I'm I'm happy to do it you talked obviously about trauma but you also talked about doing things that weren't helping you can you be more specific about what it actually is that you was doing that was obviously causing you a problem?

7:13So it started, I mean, it's been going on for a long time, I think, without me realising it, the things I was doing to numb, the feelings I had. I mean, I didn't realise I was doing it for that purpose, whether it be drinking or whatever. I think they're things a lot of people do, but if you abuse it and use it in the wrong way and you're not actually doing it for the pleasure, you're doing it to try and chase something or hide from something it can obviously damage you a lot so it started with that um and then i was i got addicted to sleeping tablets and it's uh probably a problem that you know not only i have i think it's something that's going around more than people realize in the game in football yeah i think it's you know something that maybe hopefully me coming out and speaking about it can help people because don't get me wrong they work i think you know with our schedule you have a game you have to be up early in the morning to train you've got all the adrenaline and stuff so sometimes you know to take a sleeping tablet to sleep and be ready for the next day is fine but when your dopamine system and you're as broken as I am um it can obviously have the reverse effect because it does work for the problems you want to deal with and that's that is the problem it works until it doesn't so yeah I've definitely abused him too much and And I mean, don't get me wrong, I would stop.

8:34I would stop sometimes and, you know, go a few months without them. But I was never really dealing with the problem, you know. It got really bad at some point. And I didn't understand how bad it was. But I was never dealing with the root of the problem, which was when I was growing up, the traumas I had, the feelings I was holding on to. And I tried to deal with it all by myself. I didn't want to tell anyone. I mean, there was a number of times my adopted family, my brother, you know makes me sad um they would take me to to rooms cry and ask me to just speak to them tell them what I'm thinking how I'm feeling and I just couldn't do it um because I wanted to deal with it by myself I didn't feel like opening up to anyone I had a lot of people try help me because they could see it in me I wasn't who I was I lost myself for a few years and, you know, I was just turning everyone away, not accepting any help from anyone.

9:31I mean, when I have the family that saved my life, crying and asking me to tell them what's wrong and I just didn't want to do it. Were they aware that you were on the sleeping pills? No, so they... I think they'd heard a few times about them, but I would swear on everything that I'd never taken them or that I weren't taking them, which is a part of the problem, you know. I didn't want help. I would tell myself I wasn't an addict, I wasn't addicted to them. But I definitely was. I realised that going away and talking about it and understanding it more, yeah, I did need help and it got to the time where I couldn't do it by myself anymore.

10:06And I think that's the thing people need to understand, that it is OK. I mean, we're definitely stronger as humans. We're stronger together. We don't have to deal with everything alone. I mean, the stuff you do deal with by yourself, but if it's having a negative impact on you and you feel like, OK, it's time, you can't do it by yourself anymore. It doesn't make you weak. On the sleeping pills, I mean, obviously, when I was a player, sleeping pills are not unusual in football. You know, you'd be offered one night before a game, always, because obviously a player might not sleep because of just, you know, the build-up and the adrenaline.

10:38And also sometimes after a game, when you say it's more widespread in the game, are you talking about players taking them every night? Are you talking about players potentially multiple tablets at once? Are you talking about more than one tablet? what levels were you at with them? It's quite scary, isn't it, when you think of it? No, it is scary. Like, now I'm out of it and I look back on it, like, before when I'd stop, I'd still kind of sometimes have the urge. But I'd, you know, maintain sober for a period of time and then there would always be a time when something would happen, I'd get the feelings back and I'd want to escape because drugs, alcohol, all this stuff, they work for the time.

11:17So, yeah, I was taking them. I was taking a lot. I mean, I don't want to talk about numbers, but it was definitely way too much. And there were some scary moments I had. The team's given to you for a reason, to sleep. And they do do that. I wasn't taking them to sleep. I would take them throughout the day to just escape. You're taking them during the day? During the day, sometimes from 11am if I've got the day off. I would never take them if I'm playing, but I'd start early if I had the day off. And just to escape from the reality. They're obviously a prescription drug. Yeah. And you have to get them from somewhere.

11:51And I don't want to put you in a difficult position, but there will be a concern on a duty of care basis that you've been getting these pills and access to these pills from, obviously, the game, if you like. Can you just talk to me about that a little bit? Because I think it is something that people will ask. It started with a doctor. A doctor was giving them to me to sleep. And then it turns into more than that, I think. When you want something, you'll find a way. So you were getting them outside of the game then at that point? Yeah. But you were at the start getting them in the game. Yeah. In acceptable quantities, would you say?

12:29At the start, yeah, for sure. Like it was one to sleep, that was what it was. Yeah. And for most people, that's fine, you can handle that. That's all you need. But for me, it was fixing something else that I didn't know I could fix. And you hold on to that. people think football is, you know, don't get me wrong, I love football. It's saved my life. I owe everything to football. But it's not just as easy as everyone thinks it is. It's not this high life. Like, OK, yeah, you have money, you can do a lot of things that you wouldn't be able to do about it. But mentally, I don't think people will ever understand until you're in it what it can do to you.

13:11You know, rejection, just being told you're not good enough, fighting every day. Even something like losing a game, it can affect you mentally. And you have to be ready, you have to be smiling the next day. And when you're not, it's a problem, so... When did you start to get these feelings? How long ago was it? Obviously, you've been in rehab only a few weeks ago. But when did it start to feel? Because obviously, I'm thinking going back to 2015-16 and then watching you in the World Cup in 18, one of the greatest young English talents that I've seen in a long time. What was the point where you started to feel that it wasn't right?

13:49It's hard to pinpoint one exact moment. I mean, there was probably the saddest moment for me was when Mourinho was manager. I think I was 24. And I remember there was one session, like one morning I woke up, I had to go training. This is when he'd stopped playing me. And I was in a bad place. And I remember just looking in the mirror. I mean, it sounds dramatic, but I was literally staring in the mirror. and I was asking if I could retire now. At 24, you know, doing the thing I love, for me that was heartbreaking to even have had that thought at 24 to want to retire. That hurt me a lot. That was another thing that I had to carry.

14:27I mean, that's quite a long time ago, isn't it? It's like three, four years ago and you've been carrying this. Obviously you talked about the sleeping pills, but were you also drinking quite heavily as well in that period? I mean that period, yeah, I was partying a lot. I was having a lot of parties. Just, I mean... Because it's been suggested that you were going off the rails basically. You've seen the tabloid headlines, haven't you, in that period? Yeah. That you were going out partying and obviously other things. The reality of what they say is not the reality. I think they was calling me a party boy and all this before, you know, I was doing any of this.

15:03So I think people's perception of me was a lot different to the reality of what I was living. and then it got to a point where that happened and I was in a bad place. A lot of things are built up. I think, you know, we all have emotions and we think the best thing to do sometimes is to just stuff them down and hide them and lock them away. But over time, they just build up and it gets to a point where we're human and it breaks and it all comes out. And I turn to all the wrong things. Like, I don't blame Mourinho. I don't blame anyone, you know. My reaction to that wasn't right, but it wasn't something I had control over.

15:34it was my reality of when I was younger, the traumas I had, the things I'd dealt with throughout my life and it all just came out and I'm grateful that it happened at that time because it could have been a time when I didn't feel and I couldn't find a purpose for myself. I couldn't remember the why I'd done it, why I'm here, why I'm doing this. So with football and not just football, just being young, wanting to live the life that I want to live after this and when it's done and when football was done that gave me something extra to hold on to and another reason why I need to stop so I don't I want to make it clear that I don't blame anyone for the way I feel it's always been me against myself in everything I think I've always been my own hero and my own my own biggest enemy so it's getting to a time when I need to be more vulnerable let people understand me because a lot of problems have come from me not opening up, not allowing people to come in.

16:35But that was how I felt safe. I think if you knew about my life, you would understand that a little bit more. I think I found that if you let people in, it's the way they can hurt you the most. So I definitely hid from it and I didn't allow anyone to do that. And it didn't work. I think we all hold on to not wanting to change because it's who we are. We'll lose our identity. but if you are, it's working and that's great, but it gets to a point sometimes where it's not working anymore and you need to change things. And that was the point I was at. This is another thing I was scared of about talking about.

17:07I don't want people to feel like I want people to feel sorry for me. Trauma is trauma. And your body registers it in the same way, no matter what it is. I don't care what they write. They can write what they want to do. As long as, if I help one person, then that's all I need from this.

17:26You just said before, people didn't know what was going on in my life. And you're right, I was a coach of yours and I don't know about your childhood. What we do know is obviously that you changed the name on the back of your shirt, which at the time told us that there was a potential issue, obviously, with your biological parents. But can you just tell us about your childhood? Something I haven't really spoke about that much, to be honest. I mean, I think there was a few incidents that can give you kind of a brief understanding. So, at six, I was molested by my mum's friend, who was at the house a lot.

18:05So my mum was an alcoholic.

18:12And then...

18:22Sorry. Don't be sorry. Yeah, so that happened at six. And then I was sent to Africa to learn discipline. And then I was sent back. Seven, I started smoking. Eight, I started dealing drugs. Selling drugs? Selling drugs, yeah. An older person told me that they wouldn't stop a kid on a bike, so I'd ride around with my football, and then underneath I'd have the drugs and... and so that was eight eleven I was hung off a bridge by who? a guy from the next estate a man and then twelve I was adopted and from then it was like I was adopted by an amazing family like I said I couldn't have asked for better people to do what they'd done for me I mean I mean, I don't, if God created people, it was them.

19:26You know, they are amazing. And they've helped me a lot. And that was another thing, you know. When I started living with them, it was hard for me to really open up to them because it was easy. I felt within myself, you know, it was easy for them to get rid of me again. So, yeah, I tried to be the best kid I could be for them. Yeah, I stayed with them from 12 and then started playing first team professionally at 16. And then it all sort of took off from there. So, yeah, that's kind of a... So you've had really only three or four years in your life of probably stability, that probably period between 12 and 15, 16, before it sort of went like that again.

20:13Yeah, I'd say so. I mean, this is another thing I was scared of about talking. I don't want people to feel like I want people to feel sorry for me. because that's something I can't, I don't find it easy to accept just within myself, so. Deli, people won't think that with what you've just told us. Yeah. You know, I think the fact that you're opening up and the fact that you're now speaking about it, I think people will recognise that this has been something that's been stored inside you, caged for 15, 20 years. Yeah. You said you'd been taken to Africa to learn discipline. What does that mean? So my mum, because I say I weren't a good kid, they taught me in Rio, I'm not allowed to say that.

20:54But I got in trouble a lot with the police and I had no rules. I grew up without any rules. Like I said, my mum was, she drunk a lot and I don't blame her at all for what happened. I think going to this place really helped me understand her and the things she was going through and what she had to deal with. And it was all she knew. You mean you're going into rehab now? Helps me understand her. To help you understand your mum's situation. Yeah, because it was all she knew. Even when she let me go and got adopted, she knew and I knew that it was what was needed to even have a chance of living the life I wanted to live and being successful.

21:31Because it was only going one way if I stayed there. My blood dad lived in Africa, and then I got sent to him. I was meant to stay there for a year. How was that? Horrible. I didn't want to be there at all. I think nothing against, you know, where I was, but just going from what I was living in, because we had no money. Mum had no money. There was always, like, ten guys, like, just around, like, just... What, in your house? Just in the house, yeah. Like, it was definitely, like, the drugs part. But, yeah, so there was that. And then it was just a big culture change, and I didn't want to be there, so I'd be a little bit more naughty.

22:15and then after six months I got sent back. By your dad? Yeah. Do you still speak to your dad now? No. So there was a time he tried... So he went missing for a while and then... I mean, he's probably going to come out now and say some shit, but, yeah, so he went missing. And then when I started playing for England, he came back. And then I used to speak to my mum as well, just to try and help her. Do you not speak to your mum anymore now? No. So when I was 18, around 18, I think, they went to the newspaper and started accusing the family that adopted me of doing all this stuff. When they didn't know what they had, they were the ones that used to make me go and see my mum.

23:01I never wanted to go. They would always tell me, she's your mum. Like, you should have a relationship with her. And I think that spoke volumes, like what they were doing. They were just doing it generally because they're amazing people. So yeah, and then my blood mum and dad went to the press. saying that these people are taking advantage of me, they want to go through my contracts. And I hadn't spoke to him for years. And I knew that wasn't my mum's decision because I know she didn't really leave Milton Keynes. There was no way she'd done that. So, yeah, after that, I just felt so betrayed and let down and hurt that I just couldn't keep the relationship with my mum.

23:42And my dad, I don't want a relationship with him either. What did the rehab tell you about the impact of obviously the trauma that was coming from your childhood? It was amazing what they did with some things, you know, they would really piece things together because there was a lot of things that I would question myself about because it went against my values and who I am as a person or what I want to do. And I'd question why I made them decisions, but they could link a lot of things. Like, for example, so I used to have, like, house parties and I didn't care who was in the house. Whilst you were playing football?

24:22Whilst I was playing football. So I'd have house parties. And that was very much how my mum's house was. Without me knowing, it was my comfort zone. It was normal to me. So just little things like that. Where did you go for the rehab? It was in America. So you spent five, six weeks in America? Six weeks in America, yeah. And I met some amazing people there, I think, from all different walks of life, different professions. To be able to do that, and it doesn't matter where you've come from, what your trauma is, I think trauma is trauma. And your body registers it in the same way no matter what it is.

24:55Even if you think you're fine and you've got nothing to worry about, going and speaking to someone and opening up will help you realise that, OK, if it's not causing a problem now, it could have down the line. Is that the big thing that you think you picked up whilst you were over there, that you're not alone and that you can obviously share your vulnerabilities with others? 100%. I think we all think we're so unique that no one else has the same problems as us. But speak to a few people in that place and you'll realise that you have a lot more in common than you'd probably think. You know, going there and speaking to them and listening to them and working together.

25:30It was one of the best teams I've been a part of and I can't thank them people enough, let alone therapists and stuff there. just the people that were there. In terms of where you're at currently now, obviously you're injured and you're obviously going to go back into everything. Is the hope as part of this process for you to obviously think that, you know, you can sort of share with your story and that it can help others potentially going through it? I mean, whether it be a football player or whether it be other people in life. Yeah, I think what I went through, you know, helped me really understand my purpose.

26:02Like when I'm just going through everything, breaking it down and finding out why I'm here, what I want in life, you know. I know what I can do on the pitch. I mean, I think I've showed people what I can do on the pitch and now I've got the feeling back, like, before I went to Tottenham, when I had a lot to prove and I wanted to fight and I felt so much love and passion about football, I have that back, which for me is something I've missed for probably longer than I wanted to. But with the other side of it, I want to inspire people not only on the pitch, off the pitch, in a way that I think probably isn't spoken about.

26:37enough from experience. When you've been at your best in your life, you've had stability, I think, in your sort of mentors, whether it be your adopted family that you moved in with when you were 11. Obviously, you then gave you a really stable sort of teenage period. And then obviously when you were at Spurs and you had Maurizio Pochettino as well, you were absolutely sensational. Is that one of the factors with you, Dele, that you need that sort of strong leadership around you and that sort of strong mentorship. And when you don't quite get that, when it's a little bit more unstable, do you feel as though that's had an impact on you?

27:14It definitely impacted me. I think Poch was... I couldn't have asked for a better manager at the time I was in. Him and his team, you know, not just him, there was Jesus and Miguel and Tony. They are amazing people and they're so understanding. and it wasn't like a footballer and a manager relationship. It was deeper than that I felt. And that was what I needed at that time. What was he like with you? Just give me some specific examples of how he was with you, Maurizio. He was just so understanding of the decisions I was making and he was guiding, like, he cared about me as a person before football, which is what I needed at that time.

27:53And I think that's important for young players, I think. When you go somewhere, it can be quite scary, I think. and I was never, I never had that fear of, you know, trying to prove myself in that sense because I felt like he was giving me the platform to express myself the best I could and be comfortable. I mean, players always used to say I wanted, like, that I was fearless. I weren't fearless, I was just brave. I think there's a difference, there's a big difference because I was scared of things. But I think being brave, you feel the fear still, but you still do it. And I think that's something that he allowed me to do.

28:30So, yeah, I think he helped a lot in that period of my career, which is why it was tough for me when he left, because, you know, then you come into new managers and it was hard for me to let anyone in at that point and to be open. And I felt like everything was just so fake when people, when managers would speak to me. I just felt like the conversations weren't real because there'd always be stuff in the media. What do you mean by that fake? It's hard to explain. It's something like it was more, it was probably more me in my own head, in my own ego. You know, I weren't open to let anyone in and I didn't feel like any of them wanted to really know me in a personal level, which was then tough for me to fully commit and give my everything for them, which obviously had a negative impact on me in the long run.

29:15There's an editorial in the documentary around you, which obviously you'll be aware of, where words like lazy were used by Jose Mourinho And then, obviously, there was the sort of one-on-one that he had with you, which was one of the sort of most fascinating parts of that documentary, where he talks about reaching your potential and that you don't just deliver in moments. How did you feel about that sort of, if you like, exposure and the type of exposure? Because, I mean, the idea of being called lazy, I worked with you, obviously, with England. That word wasn't in existence around you at all at that period.

29:46I mean, you were box-to-box, full of energy, get up and go, attacking every single situation that you were in. You'd get stuck in. And my view of you was you'd come up for a really good upbringing in respect of lower league football that toughened you up and you're hard as nails. So the idea then that you were described as being lazy a few years later just at the time shocked me a little bit. Do you feel as though that was unhelpful? And was that potentially the start of this journey that you've gone on? I'm glad you asked me about that. So that lazy comment, people love to bring that up. That interview, obviously I was on Amazon.

30:21He called me lazy. That was the day after recovery day. A week later, he apologised to me for calling me lazy because he'd seen me actually train and play. But that wasn't in the documentary, and no one spoke up about that because it was only me and him. So, Georgie apologised for calling you lazy in the team meeting? Not in the team meeting, he called me lazy. But then one-on-one, I think it was on the pitch, he apologised for it. He apologised. And I didn't think anything of it at the time because I know myself, I'm not lazy. The impact of the word lazy hanging on you as a football player it's a bad one it is and that's that has stuck because of that documentary but it's interesting that it wasn't in that he'd apologise for it a week later that's what I mean people can what you see sometimes isn't the way it really is I think especially now with social media and all these things we can really portray something that isn't real after that I think people definitely tried to use that for some other decisions it changed the perception of you I think externally I'm sure Yeah, for sure.

31:22And I think other coaches, maybe, for other reasons why I weren't playing, they stuck to that lazy one. Yeah. Because it was kind of an easy, easy one to use. And the problem was probably more than that, I think. Who were the senior players that you felt looked after you at Tottenham when you were there? And so how does that mean? You're not a young player now, but you're certainly not a senior player. You're only 27. Yeah. I think that's one of the places where you can be sort of, if you like, guiding back on track? Did players come up to you at certain points and say, look, Dele, come on, you need to get some help?

31:56Or Dele, you shouldn't be doing that. Did any player try and sort of help you, particularly the senior ones in the dressing room? It's hard to say senior ones, because we're quite a youngish team. But there's people who I have a lot of respect for and we're very good friends. I don't think any of them really knew what I was doing, so I'd hide it from them. I wouldn't be honest with them. Like the likes of Eric Dyer. and think he's a great friend. And you realise who is your real friend. Yeah. You really, you know, people that don't just say yes. They mean a lot to you and they all always hold a special place in my heart.

32:32So, like, people like Eric, Harry, Sonny, Ben. There's a lot of players that didn't approve of what I was doing. If they knew about it, they weren't afraid to tell me. And they would tell you, would they? Yeah, they would tell me. Especially Harry and Eric. Them two are brutally honest. How would that go, the conversation? What, they pull you to one side or they would do it in front of the rest of the players? Nah, it was never, like, in front of people. It would just be, like, what are you doing? Was that when, like, say you'd been in the newspaper for a story or something, or they'd heard you'd been out?

33:03Yeah, or, like, they could just... Sometimes you could see it on my face. I think it's hard to hide sometimes. And they definitely weren't pleased. But I didn't care. I couldn't accept any help or anything from anyone. You were just ignoring every little bit of advice. I was so numb to everything. When people, like I said, I had my adopted family crying in a room, like really crying, like telling me like how much they care about me, to forget about the football side of it, like as a person. And I was so numb. I just didn't care, which is, yeah, something I'm sad about, but I'm proud that, you know, I'm through it now.

33:43You're very skeptical of the media, aren't you? The main thing for me is I want to prove myself right because I know how good I can be as a player What do you expect the impact to be of the words that you've shared? I'm hoping it helps people Will it help you?

34:00You were young player of the year, PFA young player of the year twice you were playing in the World Cup for England you were successful with a brilliant Tottenham team under Mrizio Pochettino do you feel now in the place that you're in that you can get back to that level? Do you feel that what you've done in the last few weeks and months enables you to give you a chance to be able to succeed and be the player that you were back in that 2015 to 2018 period? I don't want to be back at that play. I want to be better than that. I want to be a better player, a better person, I think. Like, I look back at that and think, yeah, like, I've done good.

34:37But I'm not satisfied with that. I mean, you can't drive your car looking in the rearview mirror. you can't hold on to things that happened in the past. I'm just looking forward and the journey from here is just exciting for me. And I think you can tell how passionate I am about it. And I really mean it when I say I'm excited and we'll have to see. I mean, Delia, I've obviously heard these things for the first time today and I'm shocked. But I'm also inspired by the fact of what you have been through and sort of where you've got to today. You've achieved unbelievable things when you consider those first 10 years of your life and what you had to go through.

35:11and obviously where you are today, you know, is incredible, I think. What do the next few weeks hold? What do you expect the impact to be of the words that you've shared today? I'm hoping it helps people. Will it help you? It will help me. I think it's something that I needed to explain and get off my chest and I wanted to say it in the way I felt was the truth because, like I said, people write stuff and they can word it however they want and I'm sure they will. I'm sure they'll choose headlines from this and choose whatever they want to write to... What was it? Clickbait, I think. No, use the headlines and...

35:49You're very sceptical in the media, aren't you? I noticed about all the young players, even when I was playing with England, we were very sceptical. Yeah, I think... I'm in the media now, so I say that with obviously having been a player. No, because I've read so many stories about myself that it's not true at all. Do you feel like you've been targeted? I wouldn't say I don't know I think I didn't help myself I put myself in stupid positions where it was too easy for them to do that I don't care what they write they can write what they want to do as long as if I help one person to come out and change their life and potentially save their life then that's that's all I need from this You say you don't blame anybody in your life for what's going on but there's quite clearly you've been put in difficult situations and you have been let down at times.

36:39How much, when you sit here today, do you feel, I could have done a lot better myself? How much do you think, well, I could have been guided better? I mean, I definitely could have been guided better. From up until the age of 12, like I said, I was... ..kind of raising myself, in a way. Like, I had no rules. At seven years old, most people have a time and they have to be in the house. I had a key and I could come back whenever I wanted. If I'd had an actual adult who was responsible for their kid, just normal stuff like that. I don't blame my mum for that because, like I said, I understand her more.

37:23And I never really did blame her in that sense. I always look at myself first, and I was trying to explain this to them at this place, that I find it hard to blame anyone else for what I've done. Because that's just who I am. Like, I always take responsibility. If I'm not playing well, I'm the first one. Like, no one will be harder on me than what I am. So if something's not going right, no matter how many people say it, I've already judged myself. But I don't think you could, like, the mistakes I've made, I've never judged myself from them mistakes. I've always judged myself from, OK, how did I learn from this?

37:55What did I do? And it wasn't always the best. And that was hard for me. But I think from now what I'm doing is, with what I've done over these past few months, it's something for me to learn a lot from and to be proud about. Because, yes, I have made mistakes, but am I doing the right thing to fix them mistakes? Am I trying to be the best person I can be? I can actually say, yes, I am. I'm trying to help people. I'm trying to be the best footballer. I can be the best professional. Trying to inspire kids and, you know, other, not even just kids, other people, I think. And so, yeah, I'm proud of who I am today.

38:32And I don't blame anyone. I thank a lot of people. I thank a lot of people for the tough times they created for me because I think that made me a tougher person. It made me brave. It made me stronger. And it allowed me to overcome challenges that if they were just sprung on me, maybe I wouldn't be able to deal with. So I have a lot of people to thank because they did help give me the hunger and the passion to keep going and keep fighting and prove them wrong. But I think the main thing for me is I want to prove myself right because I know how good I can be as a player and as a person. And it's important for me that this battle against myself, I win and I do prove myself that I was right about all these things.

39:14You've got 12 months left on your contract at Everton. How do you think the game will view you now? You're hoping to hit the ground. I know you're injured at the moment. You'll be out for a few more weeks. But is it a case of you thinking now, I just want to get back into the first team as quickly as possible? whatever happens after this year even before this year if I come back in Everton if we decide that it's not the best place for me to be I won't have any hard feelings about that I think for me I know Have Everton spoke to you about that yet? Me and the manager have had some good conversations not so much about football at this point because obviously I'm still injured and stuff we've just had about where I'm at and stuff like that and I've got to say a big thanks to him as well I think for someone that didn't really know me this to be thrown on him and to be so understanding and not even just understanding.

39:59We had a good conversation and, like I said, he was supportive. He was understanding as well. Are you in his plans for this season? Did you get that far? Or was it more just about the personal situation and sort of making sure you were well? Right now, it's just about getting back on the pitch and showing him what I can do. And the talks were more about what I've done in terms of the rehab and how I'm feeling, which is a normal question for people to have, I think. So yeah, a lot of the talks so far have been about that. And then, yeah, I just need to get back fit, which isn't too long away. I'm feeling good in that sense, probably another few weeks.

40:35And then get back playing and enjoying football, which is what I want to do. So I'm ready for a big season. And I'm more prepared to deal with any challenge that comes with it. Have you spoken to any of your teammates in the dressing room about what's been going on in the last few months? yeah so it was always a bit of a not awkward one but I didn't know if they knew where I was or but then when I come back they only started like a couple days ago yeah but obviously I came in early because I was injured and had some good conversations and the people I spoke to were so supportive about it and understanding and happy I think because they knew me as a person you know no matter what anyone else thinks on the outside they don't know me they knew where my heart was and, you know, I think they just wish the best for me.

41:21So for me to open up and I was being more open with them and truthful, even with my old teammates. Yeah. I met with some of them before I went there, some people from Tottenham. And just to kind of tell them where I was going, why I was going there. Because obviously we had some amazing years together and I guess they were probably wondering like what's going on as well. I mean, hopefully maybe after this, they'll understand a little bit more. Yeah. Yeah, so I'm happy with the support I'm getting. Is there anything else that you'd like to say? Obviously today is sort of what I've heard is, like I say, it's unbelievably shocking to me, obviously having worked with you, but is there anything else that you'd like to say?

42:01I think, again, just to reiterate the fact that people don't need to be scared of change. I think change is always hard and when something's uncomfortable and difficult, you get a feeling, you get scared and you get the fear. But when you have that feeling, that's the exact time that you need to jump and go for it because at the other side of fear and change, it's usually only positive things. Hopefully me talking about my experiences is helpful to them. Well, look, Delia, I don't think you'll ever know the full extent of how much you'll have helped people by speaking about this because the impact that you'll have on a lot of people listening will be incredible.

42:45I think you will encourage people just how you've spoken, how open and honest you've been to go out and share their vulnerability and seek help. So, you know, it's incredible what you've told me today. Thank you very much for speaking to me and I wish you all the very best. Thank you.

43:24We'll be right back.