Fans Clash On Man City Charges & Football Traitors

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0:40I think we would be in the hat for having the worst ownership because you've literally, you've taken away all of the worst owners. Yeah, for sure. When you're loving the role of a traitor, which is a bit like you're a bit malicious and stuff like that, it's just like the celebrations I think is crazy and that's when you're sort of rubbing it in. The fact that he doesn't understand to this day what he did shows you the calibre of the man. Something's not right there. It wasn't right. It was chaotic. You're hurt. You're a Man United fan, you're hurt. No, I'm not hurt. Obviously my team's cracked.

1:08But I'd rather be beaten by a Liverpool that is a genuine success than just don't. I feel like Jerry Springer here.

1:20Thanks for joining us on the overlap for the live fan debate sponsored by Skybet. And today we're going to be talking about the biggest traitors in the Premier League and also the best and worst owners. Oh, we've got a traitor. We've got a traitor here. We've got a man who's very good at it. We've got the top traitor. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, no spoilers, it hurts because some people haven't actually watched it. No, I haven't seen it. He's told me the whole thing, basically. Basically, you've just basically met the main man. I was going to say, I keep speaking to people and they just look at me and go, I'm not actually trusting anything you say.

1:52You seem way too nice to be a traitor. You basically lied, did you? Yeah, I mean, quite simply, it was like 22 people in a castle and then a few are chosen to be traitors where they have to lie their whole way through to the end if they can. And then the others are known as faithfuls and the faithfuls have to get the traitors out. If they don't, they take all the prize money for themselves. but if they do then they split it between a team that's left. OK, so let's transition this into football. Yeah, of course. Biggest traitors in football. Can I start? Who's got your club? Go on. Carragher. Everton to Liverpool.

2:30Everton to Liverpool. Yeah. You know what? Today coming here, I come in a taxi. I didn't come here. when I got to Liverpool I went in a taxi and the taxi driver was an Everton fan and he was saying about his son having a go at him for basically bringing him up an Everton fan and I was just sat there and I was sat in the back thinking that'd be me if I couldn't have if I didn't play for Liverpool I'd be in the Gladys sleep with you Baz I mean I'm in a ball on this putt yeah he'd have the pink side wouldn't he the Premier League and he went yellow I've been talking about Covid season. I've been talking about FFP, the Cartel 6.

3:14You might have played for it. When did you realise you didn't care about Everton anymore? At what stage after playing, was there a point where you put on top of Liverpool now? It's interesting. I was a massive fan. So even when I was playing for Liverpool reserves, if there was a derby, I still wanted Everton to win. And then I'll never forget the first time I was... would have been 1996 was the first time subs went from sort of two or three to five that was the first we'd just won the Youth Cup so I was 18 I was on the bench and Liverpool's first game of the season was away at Middlesbrough and Ravanelli scored a hat-trick remember that?

3:513-3 but Newcastle played Everton a good or some first game of the season and it was Alan Shearer's first game for Newcastle first Premier League game and Everton were winning 2-0 at half time and I went out to warm up at half time you know as a sub and my dad was in the crowd and I was going to be dad it's 2-0 but like so it wasn't like I just like I play for Liverpool that's it it just sort of you get into derby games don't you start playing for Liverpool you start getting a bit of verbal when you're going out you're in the streets or you're going out for a bevy or what and it just slowly goes from there basically from one end to the other I thought it was wasn't it the Solskjaer United in the cup wasn't that the one 19 when you were winning 1-0 yeah yeah I think that was in my book about like basically we've got B by United so that was a couple years into me career I think are there and went back the pole just normal stuff and all Everton fans waiting there you scored two in the last minute and I just walked into the local you know you think I'll go for the baby just everyone's like laughing and singing and dancing they can fuck off

4:55traitors anyone who has a crazy football you've got a personal one so I thought me and Gary are friends and then I seen the other day about the billion dollar bottle job thing and I just felt hurt inside. I was like, oh no, I knew Chelsea were struggling but it hurt me. And you know what? It hurt even more. On the overlap he said he didn't like that word, he didn't like that phrase because Arsenal got it last season. I went back and I was like, Gary, come on. It sounds crazy about that word but it used to be, like all the time, if you lost a league or if you missed a putt or the back nine at Augusta, Greg Norman bottled it or it's just we've always used it now it's like we can't use that word i thought arsenal last season would bottle the running and that's flab about it he hears it every week yeah yeah so for you said it a lot but to me it's become like a word that's got seems to have got more like i don't know it seems to have got more importance to it that it's almost like it's a it's almost like it's almost like a disgusting word now do you know what i mean so anyway so i'm a i'm a traitor because i i turned on uh I don't know but look the big one it's got to be Sol Campbell hasn't it yeah without doubt Sol Campbell Sol Campbell's the one that I think for me I remember the Figo move from Real Madrid I was at Club Wembley once Sol Campbell was in there and he was getting dogs abuse still to this day he's not you can't sit anywhere near the stadium you can't go near the stadium it's untold group yeah it's unreal you can't you can't make that move and there's other ones that we make well he did no you can't what I'm saying is you can't do that so more often than not we all know football fans are emotional and as you say they keep things there they never forget and sometimes you think it's a bit over the top that's a bit old that one I don't have any sympathy there with Solcombe you can't go from your local player and go to your biggest rivals because he had other options I think he could have gone to Barcelona I know we were in for him at the time Liverpool so it wasn't like it was his only thing he could have done he can't leverage his position ran down his contract then that's the main thing players move it happens sometimes but for him an Arsenal fan I know sent me a compilation just about a week ago so you see it's still relevant in both parties and it was all of the things he'd said up until the point he'd joined Arsenal and if you read it now you wouldn't believe it I can't even say his name without recoiling I was flabbergasted I think when I remember when White Hart Lane had his last game and they invited or like the legends and they didn't invite Saul Campbell and he was really upset about it but I thought what do you expect?

7:28There's no way you're ever going to be invited The fact that he doesn't understand to this day what he did shows you the calibre of the man I'm up on there he's a great player Ashley Cole is another one who was obviously suggested back in the day As a United fan I think Paul Lintz broke my heart when I was a kid but it wasn't direct going to Liverpool I remember we were celebrating in 1999 and Peter Schmeichel cartwheeling done my head in for City. It has to be... Heinzer was really hated just for thinking about going Liverpool. But I've never felt as much, especially before a game like burning shirts.

8:02And I remember before the 4-3, Tevez was getting... The one for me from United was Phil going working in Liverpool. The one for me from United, to be fair, was Tevez that got me the most. Even though he was only on loan. Do you think it's different than a former player? He was with us for a year and a half, wasn't he? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he was with us a year and a half. I was alone, but it was a weird ownership thing then, wasn't it, I think, for him. I don't know, but for us, he was a United player. And I just thought that that front three of Ronaldo, Tevez, Rooney was special. Real. It was unreal.

8:33It was like, oh my God. And I just thought, like, if you played for United, you didn't go directly to City. You know what I mean? It's almost like that. If you played for United, it was winning things like Champions. It was also the what City he went to. Yeah. Andy Cole played for them or Peter Schmuck. Oh, no, that didn't hurt me as much. Going directly there was... Because when we talk about best United 11s and stuff like that, Tevez should always be in with a shout. Yeah, he never expected. We don't do it anymore because of what happened. But I'm saying H-19, it's fair, I had that thing with him, but you know something, Kyle, he was a great lad at United and he was an unbelievable fighter.

9:06Towards the end, he became, I think, a little bit disillusioned because he decided to get left out and stuff. But I just thought, to me, that wasn't right, that one. That was the one that I think... You've never seen a Bilbo in here. You think that was the club's fault? Do we hold on to it too much here? Because in Italy, they don't care. They manage just move and go manage incidentally. Do you know what the Premier League clubs have started to do now? I think it's because of the fact that they were deemed as being the foreign clubs, the international clubs, like Spain and Italy. We were seen as a bit stupid.

9:33So we've actually started to sell to each other. Probably FFP. To keep the money in the league. And actually, they started to sell to each other. So deals have started to happen a lot more, I think, between clubs. Do you think it's different with foreign players? Because I can't put Tevez on the same level as Ashley Cole. I can't. No, I remember the hatred that we've had. As a United fan, I'm quite lucky that we don't really hate people that leave. Everyone that comes back usually gets a good reception. So when people leave, we don't really care. But when Tevez left, it did feel a little bit...

10:06It was the welcome to Manchester. Yeah, yeah, the welcome to Manchester. He had the R.I.P. Fergie sign. Did Tevez not have that thing on the Etihad? Yeah. Yeah, because basically I said something in an interview and then he scored. He scored, yeah. He scored and he came over to me, didn't he, on the touchline. I just felt that to me was something that, I know there was a thing about me and Peter, but for me it wasn't that big a problem, Peter. You know what I mean? I think Peter genuinely... Cartwheeling was bad, though, wasn't he? Yeah, no, but I agree with that. But I think Peter genuinely thought he was going to retire abroad and then when he went abroad, obviously, to Lisbon, I think he thought, I missed the Premier League.

10:40I don't think he planned to always come back, you know what I mean? I think that was just something that happened. Whereas I just thought that for me, it bit at the time, because we were a great side. We were a really great side, United at that time. We were in the Champions League. I think the mentality of City changed without signing. None of the Rubinho's and all, the Tevez one. That's when we thought, hold on a minute. And then that billboard, it rattled too many people. You know you didn't drive down Deansgate when that billboard was there. What was the reaction to Gabby Hines? I got fined for what?

11:09Didn't you give him the middle finger? Did you give Tevez the middle finger? I got fined, yeah, I got that. Just in case we didn't know, did that again? Just in case we didn't know what the middle is. Another one's on the way. What if I had to buy up? Did he just eat Arsenal all of a sudden? That was good, mate. Scored, legged it the full length and then went to space. Van Persie was killed for coming to United. When it comes down to it, people don't want your bad players, they want your good players. They're going to push for them. Van Persie was the best striker. They took him, mate. That's what Man United used to do.

11:40So which player upset you most when you left Arsenal to go to another club? Would it be Van Persie? Actually, Cole was the one that bogged me the most. Yeah, because he came through. That's it, that's what he came through, isn't it? And if I'm honest with you, Chelsea were just starting to flex their muscles and they said, right, we're having him from you, and there was nothing we could do because of their financial strength. We may have mismanaged it, but it was an indicator that they were coming. Yeah. So that's why he's struggling today.

12:22I don't think he is, no. I was close with Mike, I rumoured with Michael, and I was aware of the situation when he went to United. Poor Michael, I rumoured. Yeah, yeah. And he wanted to come back to Liverpool. and yeah and he was leaving Newcastle wasn't he I know you sound to be fond of a good bring everybody gang up on Michael he was trying forever he was so it's three clubs where Everton he spoke to David Morris Stoke Man United but he wanted to go to Liverpool I spoke to Rafa Benitez in the summer and not that I'm like dictating transfer policy but it was a bit sounds like yeah no but he was saying I got wind that he was about to sign for Man United basically and he'd almost come back the year before when he was at Real Madrid and he was he said to me listen this is going to get sorted in about two or three days if you want just let Liverpool know this is the situation and I was like number one he's happy he just wants to come back he's just left he just wants to come back and he's happy to be sub and number one he's supposed to be going to Man United you can put a little stop that and like a little thing on them and we just listen that's Rafferty he's a manager he can pick whoever he wants you know he picks the squad so he was desperate to come back but then when you look at his options Everton has been slaughtered as well he's thinking and Michael Owen knows this he's back but I'm stoked and then you've got like the best manager probably anywhere in the Europe or the world at that time wanting to manage him so I can there's a bit of me that can understand it but it's still a move I wouldn't have made myself but I think there's more to it than just saying you know I think in his head he's thinking I'm writing my career off if I don't go there and just accepting yeah I've listened to him on a few podcasts and he has said like I do regret doing it because it sort of did dismantle any sort of relationship that he did have with us to be fair could you think about what he's done for us and at such a young age and obviously like I don't remember a lot of it but me dad drilled it into me from such a young age to not love him even yeah he's on the telly me that's like 10 it off it was on it was a fact yeah and I don't know I don't know if it is because I mean he's not local but I mean wasn't as good as father them I've seen him saying he was not you know we can disown him Any other takers?

15:08Go on. I have to add this name. It's itching me. Romero Lukaku at Chelsea. Lukaku? So let me explain the story, right? He comes in from Anderlecht. He's got the Drogba dream. He's taking photos. I've supported this club the whole time. He misses the Super Cup penalty. He leaves, right? He goes to Everton alone and goes around. Comes back. Massive fee for a striker. We've just come off the Champions League win, right? The team's unified. And if you guys remember the interview he did, saying that he loves Inter Milan and he wants to go back. Like, Latar and Martinez, don't go anywhere, I'm coming home.

15:39And this is in a season for Tuchel where we've now just won the Champions League. We're trying to win. We're top of the league before Christmas. We're doing really well. We're not creating loads of chances for him. But because he's not getting his way, he's lashed out at the media and gone out and done this interview and ruined our season. Literally, we had to suspend him, take him out of the team. We then go on to drop off in the league. We go on to lose two cup finals. We get sanctioned that season. And this is a guy that was on the most money. Like, he was on, like, 300 plus K a week. Like he had a duty, especially with all the marketing coming in.

16:08Does anyone else think Lukaku's a traitor? For me, 100%. The marketing coming in, it was really bad. It's not that bad. It was that bad. You don't mind. I can't believe you haven't mentioned Nick Barnby. I flaky old dad. Have he raised him? Have he raised him? Where's the Tottenham traitor? It would be Sol Campbell. Sol Campbell. But can I just... I wanted to throw one in. I want to throw one in, a potential traitor that might happen that directly involves you. if Conor Gallagher signs for Spurs what is he a traitor? That's not his fault. That's not his fault. I was asking how you feel because you love him so much.

16:49I love him so much. It's hard again because you bring in all the financial stuff and all of that it's like what does he do because it might not be up to him either. He can say no to going to Tottenham. He can say no 100 % but then it's also you've got to think of him as a person he's just thinking about his career too and like why would he want to go anywhere else that's like the club that's below that but obviously yeah I mean Tottenham I've got one Abel Xavier no money messing Wayne Rooney Wayne Rooney although he had to go no it did it did at the time it felt like that's the kick in the ball he was always going to leave Everton though well we thought we forced him out didn't we basically we tried to sell him to Chelsea after the Euros without him knowing Trevor Burch was there for six weeks I was on a podcast with him of you

17:40Newcastle United traitor no one really good went from Newcastle to Sunderland really no offense to us I see Steve Harper did but oh well Jack all back oh well sorry Steve and Jack I can't really think of anyone it's more like personal You know, your Lukaku and Andros Townsend, like, I'm going to stay because we've got relegated. I love this club. And then went to Crystal Palace a week later. LAUGHTER I love Jermaine Defoe, but was it West Ham when they went down and he put a transfer request in? He was a young lad, wasn't he? I think he says it now. He was on Filthy Fellas and he was talking about...

18:24He was on what? That's something else. He's laughing. You need to get on that, Cara. Joana Fogh, he mentioned how he probably handled that in the way. But he was such a young kid. Managers, Rafa Benitez. I was going to say Rafa probably from Everton Liverpool. The traitor just for coming to us. It was Agent Rafa though, weren't it? He tried to send his daughter. He's not being funny. He nearly got there, didn't he? I'd be like, yes, get in, Rafa. Honestly, doing it on paper. He just needed to draw that leverage game and not get beat, did he? He absolutely destroyed the club. Great, great fella.

19:01Harry, you're the ultimate traitor, so who gets the vote? Who's made the case? Who is the worst traitor? Which player, what manager player we've mentioned? Yeah, I know the Saul Campbell one was crazy, but Adebayor, when he scored and did that celebration too, I think it's more like sometimes you have the difference in players where you can be a traitor as in like you're you're you're forced to be a traitor and you've got to have that role as in like you've said about conor gallagher i think he's got to think about career he might go there but he's not going to love it but he needs to go there for good football right so it's like when it comes to when you're loving the role of a traitor which is a bit like you're a bit malicious and stuff like that it's just like the celebrations i think is crazy and that's when you're sort of rubbing it in he was acting yeah like acting it was that celebration that made it OK for Spurs to sign him.

19:51Yeah. He did that in between. He's fine. He hates him. Is that all right? Yeah, he's all right. He's not bad, yeah. That was the greatest celebration in Premier League. That was terrible.

20:07Let's get to owners of football clubs and you might describe some of them as traitors. You want to talk about the best and worst owners? Yeah, who's the best and worst owners in football in the last ten years? I'm in the title race here. It's me too. No, you're just your Europa League. I'm right now. What defines the best owner and what defines the worst owner? Because obviously you'd say Mike Ashley, obviously, he's despised up there, but he didn't bust the club as an example. You know what I mean? You talk about clubs that have sort of had massive financial stress. So what defines the worst and best owners?

20:43I think... Who thinks they've got the worst owners? I think we have potential. We've had back-to-back mid-table finishes after spending a billion. And we don't know what the financial repercussions of that will be. And if we don't come back to a respectable position in this league, we're a laughingstock. You take a Chelsea team that finished in the top four, two domestic cup finals, we're in Champions League regularly, and you bring them down to this level. No big team I can remember in my history since I was alive has fallen that far, consecutive seasons. So until we come back up to a respectable level, and if they are such big fans of the Red Bull model and the Brighton model and we become a feeder club, I think we would be in the hat for having the worst ownership because you've literally...

21:28So you're potentially the worst owners? Yeah. You said that though on an overlap when we'd done it 18 months ago, you were talking about Chelsea's owners. Aren't you saying you've heard it's a bit wild west here? I, from minute one, thought something, or where we all did, I think something's not right there. It wasn't right. It was chaotic. I just think when they came in and they lose, obviously, Marina, lost Petr Cech, all the sports science department, medical department, the manager, within the first few months, there was already a lot of transition with Abramovich, obviously, as well, leaving a few months before that.

22:03It just didn't seem like it was right. You know, I think of owners and our supporters, we're all just screaming, aren't we, in the transfer market, buy him, pay him, if they want a bit extra, pay him. get the play and then when it doesn't work we say oh they can't run a bath they don't know how to do it do you think these owners actually feel pressured from supporters certainly from everything I sort of get that feeling a little bit not just with my sheedy but it's a bit like come on have a go of course we want to compete but all we're going to want that army because football's about you haven't got I've seen players talking the other day about Dream you know if you haven't got anything to Dream about you may as well you may as well pack up and go home and that's what it's all about isn't it and I think you want that Where I think Mishiri has been the worst owner, it's not for putting money, because he has to drive down to the banks of the Mersey and have a look at that stadium.

22:54Unbelievable, yeah. It's unbelievable what he's done. But where I think he's the worst owner is he trusted people who weren't fit to run the football club to run it. And I think when you go in, different to Chelsea, they went in, and I remember it vividly when we were in the other place, you were saying something not right. He come in, I'd have wanted him to clear it out and go, right, I'm putting my people in. Let's have a go. It doesn't work. Football's all about, you know, I know FSC have had loads of stick and you look at them and go, why they've run Liverpool brilliant? Look at all the success.

23:24That's probably because of Klopp as well, who's amazing. Our owner has listened probably to outside sources. We've put loads of managers in, put players in. It's not a difficult thing to see why Everton hasn't worked. And then I know you're going to come up now with what's happening. Because you said Everton on steroids, resources. Yeah, you have to take everything into context and obviously there are some fans of football clubs that would love to be in my position or Manchester United fans' position. But when you look at what the club the Glazers brought in 2005, a lot of the success that we've had when they've been there hasn't been because of them.

23:57I don't think we've won one trophy because of them. In the time when Fergie was there, we even had to put up with, I remember when we sold Cristiano Ronaldo for 80 million, which was a world record transfer. and we brought Michael Owen and Gabriel Obertan in and he was like, hold on, where's the£80 million go? And it had just been siphoned off in dividends and stuff. And when you look at the amount, the total, like£1.5 billion or something they've cost the club, I think that in itself is incredible. And then how far we've fallen from... I think the two things that... I think the Glazers over the last 10 years have been negligent.

24:34Negligent in not appointing the right people. I mean, we think obviously Jim Ratcliffe coming in is amazing because he's appointed a sporting director and a CEO. The decisions that never existed? It's unbelievable, really. It's just like normal practice. So there's negligence in terms of not correcting that. And then my biggest thing is actually, to be fair, to let the stadium and the regeneration... You think about FFP now and the generation of income that could happen in... United own 50, 60 acres around the ground. They own all them car parks. What they could have done, like City have done, which is, you know, City have invested in that co-op arena that's just going to open in a month or two.

25:06They own half of that. Now that's going to throw out, I would imagine, quite, it'll probably lose money to start with because it'll need to build up, but they've invested in other things that have made money around the ground and they've invested in place. So that negligence of letting the stadium go, letting the actual, not touching the regeneration, for me, they're the two things that are just negligent. You cannot have Manchester United. You can get the team wrong. You can sign the wrong players. You can lose football matches. I actually don't have a problem with that. But you can't not have the best stadium with the money that's coming in and you can't not have a CEO and a sporting director that understand football clubs.

25:39That's when you're delegating to Ed Woodward. He's great at doing certain things but he's not a football director. You're getting him to negotiate with football people. It's where you start and where you look now. Again, just when Mascheri come in, look at Everton's team then. If you look at Everton's side then, it was ready to pop if you put some money in. It had like Lukaku and John Stones, people like that. Ross Barkley, Leighton Baines, there was good players there and you thought if you drop three or four in there they'll be fine and then you look at it today it's the anniversary of the player So what yous have got there are two football clubs who've basically got money but no expertise I always say the perfect one is City in that you've got the expertise in terms of Bagheera stands there Soriano but you've got the money as well the criticism of Liverpool is that do they put enough money in but the expertise is there so when Liverpool are now trying to find Klopp's successor you don't know what's going to happen but you as a Liverpool I've got trust in FSG to do the right thing I think their level of expertise can go up against anyone in terms of buying players obviously bringing Klopp in when they sell they sell really well as well get really big fees the two clubs from when I was asking you sorry I just mean the difference when like Klopp coming to Liverpool to what they are now because when Klopp coming Everton had finished above Liverpool Brendan Rodgers where they are now they're like they're playing in two units this is the thing though there's like a divide between the fan base of are we doing so much better because of Klopp and the moment he's gone, we're just going to dive.

27:05That's the thing. There's so many FSG authors on social media and things like that and I try not to pay attention to it because when you go to the match and you're around the people at the game, everyone sort of has the same ideas as me. We'll run well. They're building on the stadium. The main stands on Annie Road have been done up. We've got amazing facilities in the AXA training ground by mine in Kirby. I just can't fault them, really. I understand they don't spend a lot in the transfer windows at times. They have let us down. You think back to last season, we probably should have brought in a couple of players to help us during that period.

27:41Forget United got by without some resources of others at times, especially towards the end. And it's similar with Klopp. He's got some players in there that, you know, should be allowed to spend more. What I would say on this is that you look at the clubs now, we talk about how many clubs are close to FFP. I don't even know what Liverpool are, but they're never in that discussion, which I'm happy about. and this this thing we keep we always talk about transfer fees and I go back to sort of the flip side of that when I talk about Everton with FFP is that like when we say they should have bought this play they should have done that Liverpool spend what they bring in yeah but Liverpool's wage bill is massive Liverpool's wage bills above I think Man United or not far away from City so when we talk about where's the money gone Liverpool's wage bill people look at Arsenal last few years and say they've spent hundreds of millions okay they've bought Declan Rice for 105 million this was wage bills double yeah what a Arsenal season it certainly was a couple of years ago and it's not far off now so sometimes you just got actually look the numbers are there you know the accounts come out to this idea that oh and that's a money or the children this Liverpool actually given their players and good looks at them they've been amazing but I love Liverpool's expansion goes on the place or the money's there to be seen the spend and what they bring in yeah we're not we're not in the same position as United where I went fixed and left.

28:59These owners have really built on the ground and the training facilities, everything state of the art. It's brilliant. But the idea of Klopp leaving, changing that, it is a big deal. Like Klopp, the charisma, the attitude, he gets the city. He understands why we do the things that we do when the rest of the country might not understand that. And when he goes, there will be a massive challenge for FSG there. And whether they bring in Alonso, we'll all take him on fine. He could still go on to win more than Klopp did in a shorter period of time, but we'll still miss Klopp. Do you know what I mean?

29:32We'll still miss that character and that personality. I don't know what I think I would say. So, FSU brought him in. Yeah, they did. No, they did, exactly. But the idea that Klopp's sort of work in miracles is a lie, I think. Even looking at the academy. These academy players are coming through. We might have one of the best academies in the league now. And, you know, we can thank them and everything that they've done. I'm going to get so much crap for this on Twitter. I do. Daniel, I want to go... Sorry, Gary. Daniel, you've had banners out in the last couple of months about your board. It's a very tricky situation, that one, because, as I said, if you look at the point when Steve Parrish came in alongside three other investors in 2010 to save the club for administration, we were at the foot of the championship.

30:14And you look at it now, 10 years straight in the Premier League, established really as long as we don't have a disastrous end to the campaign. The sense of frustration, I think, from many Palace fans is we've got different US investors, John Texter, Josh Harris, David Blitzer, and a number of other people that are involved with John Texter's multi-club model. And I think there is this, alongside the Roy Hodgson coming back scenario as well, this sense that there wasn't really a joined up thinking between all of them and they were sort of butting heads with each other. Obviously, the Oliver Glasner appointment has somewhat changed that because there's hope again that we can go into the pre-season and start to build for a long term.

30:56But yeah, the banners, I wouldn't say they were necessarily against the ownership as a whole. I think it was just general malaise with the football club. And that has shifted with the departure of Roy Hodgson and the arrival of Oliver Glasner. Jamie, you must be happy with your owners. How many promotions in the last few years? Yeah, I mean, hands down for me, no debate. Best owners in probably the 92 to come in, contend with a minus 30 point sentence, I call it, because it was just a send down to the conference and then come from there to the Premier League. And I think people got it wrong at the start of the season, sort of putting us in with the promoted sides, of the three promoted sides.

31:34We were even punching above our weight to get into that group in the first place. And you sort of think back to what makes a good owner. It's just having a plan. You can see it have a plan. You look at Everton, there's no plan. and I was listening in to the first part in terms of what's the alternative. It's just operate smart. You've got players in the club that we've recruited, Ross Barkley on a three, or Benet on a three, Mengi from United, who probably would start for United at a minute for about a million pounds. Just operate smart. And you say about as well that the fans are sort of desperate to sign your players.

32:10Luton aren't different. We have fans on socials that are desperate to sign players in January. We think, oh, we're so close on staying up. Let's just invest five, 10 million pound more just to maybe see us over the line. But no, they still stick to their plan. And to an extent, you can't argue because it's got us to where we've got and there's no argument.

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33:07I mean, in terms of best owner, I think Brighton, the Brighton owner. Local guy, invested a lot of money. but also you think about how they've performed in the last few years, the recruitment, the smart moves they've made. I think he would be up there alongside in the Premier League as being the best owner. I think that Matthew Benham at Brentford have done an unbelievable job. You think about what they've done, they're punching well above the weight. So I think Brentford, Lute and Brighton, I think, in terms of what they're doing, is unbelievable. I think they're great owners. Is there anybody else that we think of?

33:40I think ours are pretty good at Villa. when they took over who was in the championship. They had a five-year vision of getting Villa in the Champions League and this is the fifth year. So their progress of what they've wanted, their ambition is looking like it's going to... It's quite bold of them to do it, but off the pitch as well, we've built an inner-city academy for youngsters that don't play for the academy, so the ones that are in a rural area. So I think that's just been brilliant on our point of view. and selling Grealish was probably looking back one of the biggest things and the best things they've done because we got£100 million for Grealish and we was able to sort of have three seasons where we've been able to invest and now we've got to this point where we're just under that PSR but if it wasn't for selling Grealish then we probably wouldn't have been able to challenge and try and get into the Champions League.

34:32So from their vision of Championship to where we are now, I think they're pretty good. Nearly there. There's one man we haven't heard from. He's been very quiet. Big Steve. Well, I thought Gary forgot about Shade Mansoor. No, but I think to be fair, Steve, we'll be really honest with you, I think at the moment you'd have to say with these 115 charges above your head, in terms of performance levels, the ownership has been unbelievable and the regeneration is spectacular. But I do think there's a massive cloud hanging over City. I mean, it is. If a lot of those charges are found to be obviously true, it would darken and...

35:05Yeah, but would it darken it for you? No, listen, without a shadow of a doubt, But the key word at the minute is allegedly everyone in this room automatically thinks Manchester City's guilty. We're treated like we're guilty. We're paraded around in the papers, on the TV, the media as we're guilty. But I'm trusting my chairman. Kaldun has come in. Everything they said they were going to do. And don't get me wrong, when they came in, I was sceptical. We had facts in Shinawatra. I thought this is one of them fake shakes. We're getting took to the cleaners and this is us finished. Everything they said they're going to do from the infrastructure.

35:36don't get me wrong they had to build a football club from the bottom because we wasn't a very good run football club we had Manchester United across the road that was just unbelievable we were looking across there thinking they've done an unbelievable job but you say one of the best donors though would depend heavily upon whether they get off these charges I'm not saying that I agree with you he's done everything he said he was going to do they've done everything building the academy we've all talked about the great academies the people have got we've got a fantastic academy and I can only back my chairman and when my chairman puts a statement out and says we will look forward to giving our irrefutable evidence in court then I'm backing him.

36:16But they wouldn't be kicking it into the long grass. I mean I would say this obviously you fight your own case. You're represented by the best lawyers in the world and they're telling you to do that you're going to listen to them. You're not going to listen to David. There's a reason for that because they're hoping that eventually that it'll run out of time and they can't get done. No but this is not time barred this one. this is everything's out in the open. It's not. What would be the reason for... OK, so it sounds like you've got a little bit of an insight into the club with the job that you've got a little bit.

36:43So, I mean, what is the reason why you would drag this out? No, I've got no insight at all. But people in this room have got no insight. But what I'm saying is you've got to be looked fairly. We're judged now. Like, 115 charges just means you're guilty straight away. It doesn't. Manchester City have obviously... But there's a second set of charges, isn't it, on the back of your aphers? Yeah, they obviously want their day in front of the panel. so they're not giving up books and accounts because it's probably a legal process where you just can't do that don't get me wrong I would love City to go here that's the evidence there it's got to wait but here's another dilemma if Manchester City are cleared yeah there's not one person in this room that really thinks we're cleared they're going to say you know what you've done there someone's paid somebody off there so us as Man City fans we can't win I'm a football fan I'm not an accountant a lot of Manchester City fans are on the best journey of our lives and the David Bernstein and all that, the club was going out of business.

37:37We're on a journey now. This is a cloud, like Gary said. It is a cloud. Don't get me wrong, I wake up every single morning to messages, 115, cheats, done this, done this. But it's not me. I'm not an accountant, so I'm a football fan. But what kind of football fan would I be if I didn't trust the chairman who's delivered us everything? And you love that chairman. When you talk about ownership, I always say if you've got money and great expertise, that's the best combination and you've got that Don't get me wrong if we've done something wrong then I've got to go out on all these shows I've been on like this and I've got to sit there and I've got to take it and there'll be nobody more disappointed than me Manchester City's my life everything about my life I follow this football Who would you be disappointed in?

38:18In the owners and the chairman Steve what would you do what I'm saying to you is obviously I agree with it at this moment in time I've got no faith in to be fair anybody landing the charges on them and the Premier League City could even they'll get up all 115 as far as I'm concerned. But if they were guilty of these charges, what would you, as a prominent City fan, expect to be the action in terms of what would you want? Would you expect the owner? What would you expect them to do? It depends on the severity of them, isn't it? You know what I mean? We've read some of them about grass length not being up to a certain thing, the medical room not being the right side.

38:52There's loads of these charges I've read about it. It depends. I can't sit here and say how I'd react. I don't know. but if it comes out in court we've been guilty of this, this and this obviously rival fans like Everton who've been punished and they're going to want the book throwing at us but all I'm saying is we've already been judged there's no fair you've cheated, that's it if Everton's been got guilty of one charge City are getting that's it that's emotion though in here you may have already been judged by fans I get it every day but the panel you're not suggesting that the panel and the judges no not them No, I'm just saying on social media, not where I am, and rival football fans automatically assume we're guilty.

39:31Obviously, the panel will be independent. But, Steve, can I... You're right. Of course, that will always be the case. It's the same on the UEFA one. That got passed. You weren't convicted of that, but you still get a throw at it. I get what you're saying. I know it was timed by that. I'm aware of that. But my point is, one of the reasons for that is when you see Manchester City say they're bringing in more commercial revenue than anybody in the world, that is ridiculous that can't be right that is like I'm not having to go at you as a club I totally get you're going to fight for your club you're a City fan I get that the reason why some of the things from other fans is you look at that and go oh come on you're almost throwing that in your face but look at the trophies we've won in I get it and I know you've got your Champions League money you've won 14 European Cups you can't bring in more commercial revenue you're missing the point at the end of the day what we've been doing gradually over years and years and years coming up to now are we not entitled to get big sponsorship deals because we're winning the Premier League?

40:27Of course you are. Are we not entitled because we're winning the Trebles, Centurions, Formidables? Yes. We're doing incredible things. Yes. So we can go to companies and say, do you want to be a part of the City Group? Don't forget, we've got clubs in China, we've got clubs in New York. So if you're investing in Man City... Do you seriously believe that yous are bringing the biggest commercial revenue in World Football, Manchester City? Steve, come on. No, but listen to me. I'm saying as a business, Gary mentioned some at once, I think, about Etihad Airways and stuff and being related to the thing and all that.

40:55At the end of the day, these guys are, they're business contacts. You're telling me at Salford you've not utilised your business contacts and brought in people who know you. They might not give a shit about Salford, but they know you. So this guy will invest in Gary's team. Steve, at Salford, we have got one of the largest commercial revenues in the league and one of the lowest gate revenues in the league. We have. The market's uncertain. Revenue's tied and hiring on hold. That's why results-driven companies are using Upwork to keep work moving. Go to Upwork.com today and start hiring proven freelance talent fast.

41:30No bulky overhead. No rigid long-term contracts. Just the right expert right when you need them. Work smarter and faster with Upwork. Go to Upwork.com now and find your freelance expert. That's U-P-W-O-R-K.com. Post a job for free and get started today.

41:50But we haven't got any related party sponsorship deals. We haven't got companies that have invested into Salford that we own or got connections to that have put double the amount in. We don't benefit... We haven't done that. So I can honestly say to you that we have not in any way, shape or form gone to a... I own six companies. None of them are sponsors of Salford. None of Peter Lim's companies are sponsors of Salford. So there's no revenue that's come into our football club at all. I'm not saying we wouldn't do it in the future From the Abu Dhabi point of view What they're trying to do is If you've been to the Middle East It's all about the Middle East So if they own a football club That's the crown jewel in the Middle East So they want to get Middle Eastern companies Involved in it To raise the profile of the Middle East I've been to Saudi a few weeks ago And I've been out to Dubai And it's like So I can see where they're coming from with that But everyone automatically thinks Because his brother owns Etihad Airways It must be a bent deal Why is it not just Well, I want my brother I totally get people who you know would sponsor your club you know what I would say is you know when they're paying a certain amount for it who was the rival bid for them to pay that well that's for them to come out but there there wouldn't be a rival bid if you look at the Cass case the Cass case yeah if you look at that in the paperwork it says the Etihad Airways Etihad Salat sponsorships were deemed of fair value that was done there because they had people from Etihad Salat there so people say no the Etihad deal is not right it was right it was proved in in Cass that that's fair value But who can put a fair value on a sponsor?

43:18Surely to God, if you think that going into Manchester City, Champions of the Premier League, the old New York City, we can get a training ground name there. So if I go and look at Manchester City's model and think, I can get into China, New York, India, I can get in. Whereas if I go to pick any club, Spurs or whatever, and say I've got Tottenham, then maybe I'm just limited to England. So these owners are very clever. I'm not an accountant. I'm just saying that I trust them. But I'm on the front line. If this comes out in the washing and City's done something wrong, there's nowhere for me to hide.

43:49Would you swap it? There's a fan debate the next morning. You've got European Cups, League, would you swap it? Every memory that this football club has made me, Sheikh Mansour has made me, I'll never forget. No matter what happens, unless the men in black turn up with that little pen and flash it in front of me. Can you send them to me if you do? I've had the best time of my life, right, supporting this football club. And I'm not going to say if we got sanctions that it wouldn't hurt. Of course it would, we're a football club. But all I'm saying is, all I say to people is, Let's see in court And if Manchester City go to court And they prove that what the Premier League is saying is wrong Because I believe that Manchester City Could come out of this in a good way And the rest of the clubs in here Could benefit from Man City Having the guts to go up against this Premier League Because we've just sat here for an hour now And realised that what they're doing is not right FFP, turnover based, it's not right People with small turnovers How are they going to compete?

44:37It can't happen It should be debt based Your club should not be able to run into an X amount of debt because you're sailing close to the wind. Turnover-wise should have nothing to do with it, in my opinion. If that's your club and you want to spend your own money on infrastructure and players, then you do that. We believe that. But if they're not the rules, you're not allowed to break the rules. So is Manchester City right now a cloud actually over the Premier League? You talk about other clubs trying to compete with you. I think if Manchester City were fifth in the Premier League, sixth in the Premier League, there's not half the amount of moaning about it.

45:07Of course. It's because we're winning. But at the end of the day, you look at the transfer window just gone. Transfer window used to be a great day Some of us are ringing sick at work Transfer deadline day We'd sit there Who were we going to sign The biggest deal was a Formula One driver moving It was£55 million So they've even killed the transfer window They've killed pre-season I think the Premier League From the outside looking in Is a mess And I think all this with Everton Forest, Villa What we've said is a mess And I'm just waiting for the fair trial And if we guilt it I'll put my hands up And you'll take all that back Yeah I bought one in replica European Cup, so I locked myself in the room with that.

45:44That's why I didn't want Qatar United, because I feel that fans end up parroting this kind of state-sponsored PR and all these statements and stuff, trying to defend your football club and that. And I get it, football fans are emotionally invested in their team, so they're going to do that. But it's mad, isn't it? When you're trying to defend literal financial doping by a sports-washing state. It's alleged. Come on, bro. Are you a lawyer? Bro, are you just sat there defending them? Are you a lawyer? No, I just said, I just said the allegedly, I know much about it as you know. You know nothing and I know nothing.

46:14Alright, nah, City's success is spot on. Come on, bruv. You're hurt. You're a Man United fan, you're hurt. Obviously my team's crap. But I'd rather be beaten by a Liverpool that is genuine success than just doped. It's literally, you're losing against someone. But isn't it open to that now? These are spent a billion pounds. They've spent a billion pounds because they're not winning, apparently it's our fault. It's easy to play Manchester City for your favour. I'd never defend the Glazers. I'd never defend the Glazers, just like I wouldn't have defended us if we got Qatar. You had a march for Qatar.

46:45You sat here going... You had a march for Qatar outside your stadium. You sat here and went... You had a march for Qatar outside the stadium. You can't say you because I wasn't there. There's probably about a couple of hundred people. There's always a couple of hundred people. Even Glazer outpost... You know a couple of hundred people at City. But how can you sit there and go, we're not state-owned, but you literally called them Etihad? You literally called your team and the owners a state. Who did? You, just then when you were talking. Talking about a sponsor, the Etihad. You also referred to the owners as a state.

47:14I feel like you're a Springer here. The City will deny that they're a state, but they literally call themselves a state. The Abu Dhabi Group owns Manchester City, not a state. Oh, come on.

47:31Best owners in the Premier League? Well, we're dealing with billionaires, right? The best owners that you've just mentioned, hold on, the best owners you've just mentioned are local people that have a connection with the club, Bloom, and they're running in the right way. They're not rich, but as a football fan, you want success. Well, you're rich, but you're not rich. You're rich, rich. Do you know what I mean? 300 million's not rich. No, he's rich, rich. Can I get in your... OK, but we're comparing with billionaires and Jeremy. So just in the context of football, you're not as rich as what you need to be to maybe win.

48:00I would go with Luton. Luton for best notes. Because to go with that model, when he explained to me, Gary Street, is it the suite? Sorry, Street. I think it's hard to say. That model to go from the non-league to the Premier League with a 60 % on a 10 ,000 stadium. What a man. Honestly, that is unbelievable. No, I know it's unbelievable what they're doing, but that's my argument about what is a good one because if they didn't make that journey Which could have easily not happened they're supposed to be saying they're not they're only paying 60 % of the revenue Why are they putting more they'd be getting slow and it's off the context of the size of the club that you're at So we're not saying that they're It's personal isn't it?

48:39Like Mike Hashi is Any set of fans here, Newcastle fans are saying our chairman or our owners don't put more money Okay, they've been rubbish Brighton as best owners Brighton as best owners I've just been told they lose a lot of money so it's not Brighton He puts a lot of money into the club personally. It's not like... It's not as if there's some... And Brighton fans are going to get right stuck into me. I appreciate that. I've touched the hell out of this. But it's not just the case of every single player they sign goes to Chelsea for 100 million and they've got everything singing off the same hymn sheet.

49:10They do spend money. Tony Bloom has spent a lot of money himself putting into that football club. Fair play to him, but it's not some rags to riches story. It's not like the Luton 60%. It's good ownership, though, the players that sign. I'm not sponsored by Chelsea. We're 50 % responsible. We sign their goalkeeper. We've taken their sporting director. We've taken Graham Potter for 20 million and sacked him. We've brought in Karsado for a record fee. Without us, are you even bringing them up? Who's got the best order, then? See, no, because your reasons for being a bad owner was business reasons, whereas my reason for being like, Mike Asher being a bad owner was personal reasons, if you know what I mean, like, the way Kevin Keegan, and the fact that he was up in court for lying to us, the way Jonas Gutierrez was treated, obviously, after he had cancer, like, the fact that they tried to name the stadium Sports Direct Stadium.

49:56So, my reasons for my class, you're more, I think, more personal than business, but also business as well. I think it depends what you judge it on. I mentioned what about the situation is, you're probably in a similar situation with Tottenham, where you say, you know, Daniel leaving me, I'm only paying a certain amount of wage, I'm only spending a certain amount of money, but then your fans don't like him, because you haven't had success. And it's a sort of similar sort of story. No, no. I think that there is a wavering optimism and popularity that Daniel Levy exists in at Tottenham, but he just undoes it by the ticket price rising.

50:32Ultimately, fundamentally, we're in a situation where he has to be gauged on if he can bring success to the football club from this point. He's put us in an excellent position financially. The fans are paying for it for the large part because of the ticket and whatnot. but he has generated huge amounts of revenue for Spurs. Is he going to commit our ability to spend to an idea that we could achieve success? If he does that and we do, then he has to be in the conversation as one of the best chairmen in the league. In terms of running the football club, you can't look past him. The conversation has to be that Daniel Levy could be the best chairman in the league, but if he wins nothing, it means nothing.

51:14There's three categories for me. sporting, business and then cultural. I think if you're ticking all three boxes, you're the best. If you're not ticking all three boxes, you're the worst. Who's ticking all three boxes? Who's ticking all three of those boxes? I think in present-day football, Luton Town should not be in the Premier League. The owners came in, they're Luton Town fans, and their pitch was by 2020, they'd be in the Championship and in a new stadium. The stadium doesn't happen, but it's in process. We were in the Championship a year early. Now we're rolling on four years, we're in the Premier League.

51:44I think that's off the scale performance. Luton Town should not be five points off or four points off safety with 12 grams to go in the Premier League. You look at Chef United, like, shipping five goals every week. That should be us. We are nowhere near that. Everyone had you relegated. You're not having a go, aren't they? You're involved. We'll finish on that. Fucking city there saying Luton having a go. Remember Alderman Fleck away, don't forget now. I remember them days when we're having a go. Right, so we asked who the best only ship is, or the best or the worst, and we're none the wiser. We're going to go for Lootin.

52:16Yeah, we're going to go for Lootin. We're going for Lootin. Thanks for joining us. See you next time.