Football Crisis: Soaring Ticket Prices & Fan Culture At Risk! | The Overlap Fan Debate

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2:05Yeah.

2:08You won't make money from the conference. It's Champions League or nothing. This is why I don't get invited to parties. I'd invite you. You're trying to take something away. Once you let that genie out of the bottle, it's gone. It's a joke, that. Absolute joke. I think there'll be absolute uproar in England. I can't imagine our supporters would accept that. There's a five grand ticket at Chelsea for one game. I mean, like, what do you get for that? You get to play. Do you know what I mean? If there's a£2 million fee for Salford to go and play, you'd have to, right? The league game's away. Yeah, anything.

2:40No, we wouldn't do that. Yeah, we would. I've been overruled.

2:52Hello and welcome back to the Fan Debate brought to you by Skybet. Paul Scholes and Gary Neville alongside me again. And today we're going to look at the future of football and the money side of football. The Price of Football's Kieran Maguire returns to the studio. And welcome to George Elek from the Not The Top 20 podcast here to represent the AFL. Gary, we've entitled this episode The Future of Football. if you could pick one concern about modern football and what lies ahead over the next decade what would you pick? Oh What do you see the problem that's coming in football? I would remove all the cliff edges that exist within the game in respect to financial distribution and sustainability and salary capping and sort of an amalgamation of managing costs distributing revenue further and getting that sort of what would be rather than getting this which is what you get from say the top six to the other 14 and then you've got these sort of what would be massive cliff edge from the Premier League to the Championship and then you've got within the Championship the parachute clubs, the non-parachute clubs and then you've got Championship to League One.

3:59They're huge, huge cliff edges that exist within the game which create distress, they create panic, people chasing the sort of golden ticket and I would remove that desperation that exists within the game and create some form of management of costs which is difficult because the biggest cost is player costs and the last time that League 2 and League 1 clubs voted for capping costs, the PFA overruled that through legal dispute things, which they always would do because I've been a player myself. So for me, I'd remove all those cliff edges and if we did that, I think we'd have a game that wouldn't constantly be talked about, football matches for money.

4:39You've got to get in the Champions League, you must get parachute payments, you must get this, you must... It never used to be like that and I'm not saying we should go back to the 80s but I'm saying that there should be a way in which it's just smooth all the way through to the bottom. Scolesy, have you got any worries about the game right now? I fooled after that, to be fair. I should have went to Scolesy first.

5:02I have no idea what he just said. Cliff edges, that was all I got. He just wants a pint from the five quid. I think ticket price is a good one, isn't it? fans obviously clearly not happy with that especially being at our club Adam probably a lot of tourists at clubs as well no I'm not saying it's a bad thing but they shouldn't be taking over as much as they are I remember I was at a City game I think it was two years City-Real Madrid just as I got invited by a City fan friend I do have a couple of them and after the game I was a little bit worried about walking outside I thought this could get a bit tasty this might be a bit lively Man United player walked out honestly there was no you wanted punching didn't you punch me go on I wanted a bit of needle but there was no was it the 4-3 game like two years ago or was it the 4-0 one I think it was the 4-0 one yeah City Hammond yeah just atmosphere seemed to be a bit quiet and I'm hoping the local fans aren't being priced out of it because you know So these lot are coming over and they'll pay probably a lot of money to go and watch them.

6:20Yeah, I'm sure we'll get to that later on in the show. Well, Ciarán, welcome back to the Fan Debate. So next season is the first year of the new TV deal with the Premier League. Can you enlighten us how much more revenue will the Premier League clubs be getting? They're getting 4 % more than the current deal. But it's a four-year deal for the first time. So actually, the Premier League will be getting only 4 % more money than they were in 2017. So Gary was talking about costs going up, wage costs, the overheads of running a club. You've got the interest costs on the loans. Those have gone up as well because bank rates have gone up.

6:57So all of the costs in relation to a club have gone up. You're not making that much more money through the TV deal. You're struggling to get more money out of the sponsors. So that's why we're seeing so many clubs, especially in the Premier League, targeting fans through match day ticket prices and sort of exhibition packages as well. It's now football's become an experience rather than a sort of a working class sport. Can I ask you something? You know when we talk about clubs getting more money or the new TV deal means each club will get an extra 50 million, or say it's 100 million, whatever it may be, and it's great for the football club.

7:32Does the football club ever get it? Does that not just mean wages go up or transfer fees go up? Everyone just knows you've got more money. So an agent's going to ask more for his player and a club is going to ask more for a transfer fee. Do the club ever get their hands on that extra money? No, they don't. If you take a look at the actual numbers, since the start of the Premier League in 1992, revenues have gone up by 2 ,995 % and wages have gone up by 4 ,036. Transfer payments have gone up by 4 ,540. This is why I don't get invited to parties.

8:06I'd invite you.

8:11I think last summer especially was the first time we saw teams, if you could say, getting creative around PSR and money and club swapping players who are in similar positions. Do you think we'll be in a position where that's happening again this summer, it becomes the norm? What clubs will be involved in that type of dealing? I think there's a couple of clubs that are looking quite precarious in terms of their finances. I think Villa are the ones that get mentioned the most often. because they have invested heavily in the squad, because last year their wages were 90 % of the money coming into the club.

8:46They've got their transfer costs on top. So they've got a women's team. They can replicate what we've seen at Chelsea. Have they got any further real estate? They got money from HS2 a couple of years ago when that was going through. And they've also got the problem that the Jack Grealish sale, which effectively bought them three years' worth of PSR safety, that's now dropped out of the equation. So, yes, I think they'll be under pressure. There'll be one or two others as well. And we've got the further complication of Leicester City being relegated. The EFL will certainly be rubbing their hands with glee because they got quite upset the last time when Leicester managed to prove that in 2023 they were neither in the Premier League or the Championship and therefore they couldn't be charged by either body.

9:30There's a situation around the FA Cup final Where maybe eight teams I'm not sure exactly what it is But maybe eight or nine teams Could be playing in Europe next season Will that make a major difference or impact In the finances of football And how it affects teams? It's all about getting into the Champions League That can be worth up to£150 million next season That's money coming And remember a lot of that money will go out because players will be on bonuses and so on. And then you've got the cost of physically going to the matches, the flight costs, the charter flights, the hotels and so on.

10:07So it does all add up. If you are in the Europa League, you're probably not really breaking even until you get to quarter or semi-finals because you've got that Sunday, Thursday, Sunday, Thursday repeat. And if you take a look at the clubs that have been qualifying for the Europa League, not just this season, but in other seasons, they've been dropping down the Premier League. If you're five positions down in the Premier League, that's£15-16 million worth of prize money that you're worse off. Conference, you're doing it for the fans. You're doing it for the fun. You won't make money from the conference.

10:39The only benefit is if you win it, you get into the Europa League the following season. So it's Champions League or nothing. Kieran, I think you know the answers, but what's happened in the last four or five years where Chelsea, if they don't get into the Champions League, Newcastle, Villa, United, Tottenham, All these great clubs which have had huge revenues, what's changed in the last few years that means that they're all under real stress if they don't get into the Champions League? I know before it was like, it was a disappointment and it cost you some money. But it's now getting to the point whereby clubs are really going to struggle.

11:10What's happened? What's changed? Well, we have seen wages outstrip the money coming in in terms of revenue. If you've budgeted to be top four and you don't make it, then all of a sudden you've got a hit of a minimum of£50 to£60 million. And that's before you start to look at the win bonuses that you get from UEFA. And six into four doesn't go. Seven into five doesn't go. And what we now have is we've got challenger clubs, the likes of Newcastle United, Aston Villa and Nottingham Forest, where new owners have come in, they've put in extra money. And therefore, I think the guaranteed place is that I think that the owners of Manchester United and Chelsea had assumed that would continue forever more.

11:51And you can understand that because they went through that long period of time of repetition, no longer exists. And as a consequence, they're now getting caught out. And just one season out of the Champions League is a huge impact. Gareth, I want to ask you as a supporter, a few weeks ago, when Liverpool clinched the title, Mo Salah scored a goal and then took a selfie with a Google Pixel camera, who I think is a sponsor of Liverpool. I mean, how did you feel about that as a supporter? Because it was obviously all set up. He was given the phone to do it. Yeah, that's a bit weird, isn't it? The 80s was mentioned before and I was around for that.

12:30And I can remember what football then was like. And you obviously wouldn't get anything like that happening. And it does feel sometimes that football is now not actually the football we remember and it's turned into content. It's turned into this product. I don't know. I worry that we're losing some of the culture and some of the community around it. And that's certainly where the supporter groups I speak to, the supporter group I'm part of, Spirit of Shankly, that's stuff we're talking about now. So yes, there's been loads of protests about price. 19 of the 20 clubs, I think, protested this season under the Stop Exploiting Loyalty campaign organised by the Football Supporters Association.

13:10but we're also starting to get concerned about the culture because our argument is the culture of English football is the best in the world and that's actually what we're selling and we love the fact that our stadiums are passionate, colourful, that there's banners, there's flags, booze, whatever there might be. I've been to Real Madrid, I've been to Barcelona as a tourist and watched games and I thought it's impressive but it's not that. And I worry, my worry, and a lot of people's worry is the direction of travel. It's already been mentioned that you're starting to attract maybe like a transient support that just sort of want to come in as a one-off experience and go away again.

13:54And that's to the detriment of the loyal fans that have gone for years, who pass it on through the families, who bring the sons and daughters and all that kind of stuff. Are we starting to break that? You know, I even look at my lads and I just can't get them to games. I get them to some games, but I can't get them to all of the games. The season ticket list is closed. There's no chance of him getting one of them, so he can't experience it like I do. And I worry that he's growing up sort of, football's a thing he watches on the telly, football's a thing he sees on his phone, football's playing FIFA.

14:26It's not going to match. Gary, because it was Liverpool, it was on the Premier Leagues, I think one of the social medias. I think the day Liverpool won the league, a family from America, I think it was, took a selfie of, you know, everyone had left, basically a selfie of, you know, the pitch behind them. There's about six or seven of them, family, first time at Anfield or first game in the Premier League or something like that. And the Premier League put it on their thing. And I was like, and I'd seen all the replies. I was like, how did they get tickets? How? For the biggest game of probably the season for Liverpool.

15:00How has that happened? That six or seven people from America have got tickets there. You put 20 grand on them. If you put 20 grand on them. That's what I'm saying. No one could get a ticket. You're talking about getting your lad a ticket. Everyone that week was trying. Well, 18 % of Anfield now is corporate offer. And some of that offer will be through third parties and packaged up into a hotel deal, a ticket and all this. You know, some kind of premium product where you're getting access to a lounge and you might get, I don't know, a beer and a packet of crisps for 500 quid or something. It's not how, again, it's not how I have experienced football or want football to be or even want him to know football.

15:39I love being on the Kop. It's unbeatable for me. That's where I want to be week after week. And that's where I want him to be. And sometimes we can do a bit of a thing with our mates or whatever and I'll get him next to me. But not much. Like I've managed to get him on for the final game of the season locally. But he's going to be in the Annie Road and I'm going to be in the Kop. And it kind of like defeats the object. I want to give him a hug. I want to say get him, we've won the league. And I think you're losing that. I heard on your podcast you were talking about a group of City fans that have always gone together and you know they've gone for like 20, 30, 40 years was it and they're starting to say I'm not sure I can go anymore I'm not sure I can afford all these rule changes and I mean I can't even explain what to do in that City it's madness you'd know better than me you've got to go to 16 games minimum or your season ticket's gone you know people have that might not be the exact thing but it's there or thereabouts you can relist a ticket but it gets listed for a way higher price than you get your money back and there's all sorts of problems that people might see in the protests and stuff, but it's just a shame because, like I said, if I had kids in 10 years or 20 years, are they going to...

16:43It feels like we're not wanted. If you go back to that European Super League proposal, it came out, I think Dan Roan on the BBC tweeted it, said that we were referred to, or I would say, the people in this room, we were referred to as legacy fans at that time. And it was like, OK, so are we not wanted then? You want a different type of person in the ground. even go back to Scudamore when he was the Premier League chief he talked about well you might not be able to go every week anymore but you'll be able to go and I remember that quote really stuck in my head because I thought what's wrong with going every week what's wrong with that loyalty what's wrong with the fans who were there through thick and thin you know the wind and the rain because they're the ones who create the songs and they're on the coaches and they make the banners and they do all that stuff in their own time that provides a great platform for what's on the pitch if that goes I know the situation at Liverpool, I'm sure it's the same with Manchester United and everybody else in here where clubs are really stamping down on the tout.

17:39And we probably all say, yeah, fair enough. Are we in a situation now with the club? The clubs are actually the biggest tout out there. Yeah. Is that fair, Kieran? Yeah, it is. But from the club's point of view, the mark-ups are so great that if you get one 19th of your season ticket back, which is 25, 30, 40 quid, whatever it's going to be, and then you repackage it as an experience, as a product on the day, So you go to some warehouse a couple of miles away from the stadium, you get a pie and a pint and you get a selfie with somebody and a trophy photograph, and you can sell that for 500 or 600 quid.

18:15Chelsea, for their semi-final last week in the Conference League, where they'd already won the first leg 4-1, they were selling tickets, a dugout experience, for 450 quid. It was a normal seat. You could go and hear what the manager was saying, and they were trying to sell that. There's a five grand ticket. There's a five grand ticket at Chelsea for one game. I mean, what do you get for that? You get to play. Do you know what I mean? I don't understand what you're paying five grand for. And then you look, I read in the paper yesterday about Fulham. And they've essentially built a cruise ship onto the side of the stadium.

18:48An affinity pool where you can't actually see the game. Yeah, it's got a swimming pool. So you're going to match with a bathing cap and having a little dive. I just don't, like, where's football going? That's genuinely my worry. Dan, I want to ask you. You mentioned to the producers before the show about football fandom shifting. Yeah. Is that a similar sort of thing? To be fair, Gareth sort of touched on a lot of my concerns. My main thing, and it isn't necessarily a thing at Palace, it's more of a Premier League-centric argument, is that the banners and the songs and the tribalism that exists, that's the USP of the Premier League in terms of the marketable nature of it.

19:27So you can't have it both ways. If you're the owner of Liverpool or Manchester United or Chelsea and that fervent atmosphere that the Premier League is known for that separates us from the rest of Europe, if you're not cultivating that by inviting the people in with reasonable ticket prices and the ability to pass it down through generations of a family, then ultimately it will lead to a situation where the atmosphere dissipates regardless. because the word tourist, I think, is too much of an umbrella thing because you can have someone that cares deeply about a football club who's from LA. I'm not going to say that that isn't the case, but they're not living and breathing it every day.

20:03I watch American sports. It doesn't mean that I'm the same as someone from New York or Boston. You can't be that if you're not that. And there is a place, I think, for tourism, but it shouldn't be at the expense of the people that want to take their sons, their daughters, whoever it might be, with them. And if you're going to price them out and you're going to make it feel as though they are not welcome, then the product as a whole will just stop being as desirable as it is at the moment because ultimately we're the people that make it desirable as far as I'm concerned. I'm not going to defend clubs here, but when you talk about the sort of tourism element of it, I don't know how many season ticket holders there are at Anfield, but United, there's 60-odd thousand season ticket holders.

20:40They're people who go every single week, obviously, because they have to, mainly. You're talking about 10 ,000 tickets that are available, basically, because 3 ,000 at United are away fans. 62 ,000 season tickets. You've got 10 ,000 tickets that are available for sale. That's where they do sell those 10 ,000 tickets to. Obviously, they go to the supports clubs. So the supports clubs around the world with United, they get a proportion of tickets that relate to that area. I don't know how it works at Liverpool. Liverpool have got 60 ,000 people watching. How many season ticket holds are there at Liverpool?

21:11About 26 ,000, 27 ,000. That's quite low. That's very low. It's the lowest percentage in the league. Yeah, that's very low. United is very high. So Liverpool's is very low, which means they're distributing 35 ,000 tickets every single week. We've got a members scheme, but then there's a huge, like that's oversubscribed massively. So if you're a member, you've got a very low chance of actually getting a ticket. So I paid for a membership from my lad for a season. He got one ticket and it was in the gods in the main stand. What's City's percentage? I think City, I want to say 30 ,000 roughly, but the floor is, you've got 19 league games.

21:46They're getting rearranged left, right and centre. the floor probably isn't that's kind of like the numbers on paper like I said there Gary but if you look kind of a bit deeper if you've got a spare ticket you want to take a mate or whoever wants to go that's what they're cutting away as well that's being taken away you've not got that privilege I'm not completely so I've got season tickets at United and to be fair sometimes I switch them to my daughter or sometimes I'll switch them it's bloody hard work it's getting removed that element that's the hidden that's the hidden level it's ridiculous to switch tickets to another member of your family it's hard work that's the issue of it And that's the thing on paper, people looking out there, you said United, maybe 10 ,000 are available.

22:23People work, people have illnesses, stuff like that. People have lives outside of football. As much as we want to go to 19 games, and some people will, you might have to miss four or five games. You don't know what's happening. You don't know what's around the corner. So that's the part where, and even if you try and list that ticket back up and get£40, like I said, 119th of the season ticket, whatever it is, that's them being flogged for God knows how much. and that's one of the problems. The only way that, particularly when you go back a few years to say before Ineos came in and there was a demand for change and ownership probably even may be still there now.

22:57The only way you could ever really hurt the clubs is by actually the fans not going but that's never going to happen ever. But then wouldn't they just sell those tickets to the next team? I said the only way you really could ever hurt the club is by obviously restricting revenue and that's never going to happen because the fans are so loyal. The club would want season ticket holders and that to turn up because they can flam the ticket. And it's the nature of the club. It's very, it's quite strict and almost aggressive with the fans. Like you said, United have got the same thing where you need to go to X amount of games or you can't renew.

23:26You need to get family and friends to buy a membership so you can transfer a live QR code to them. And my bank card, I had to cancel it. So when they tried to take the payment out for the Bilbao game, obviously it didn't go through because I forgot to update my card. And they used to send texts. So you'd get a text frame and be like, oh, I could change that. now and now it's like an email that you might not see for a week and they kind of slip it under the radar in the hope that you won't take that ticket and then if you don't take it they sell it for three four hundred quid and then you miss out on another league game because they ban your ticket for a league game it's like how are you treating fans like this same thing happens to me the leon game you change your card number so you haven't got the card number they're trying to take out your old card your old account it doesn't go through so like you say the day before the game and you might see the email.

24:15Too late. Ticket's gone. So Manchester United can cancel post goals as typically are. That's the headline again. That's the headline again. So Jim Ratcliffe had it again. That's it.

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25:24You're the best. Thanks, Mark. I'm Myra Amid, founder of Mochi Health. To find your Mochi moment, visit joinmochi.com. Mark is a Mochi member compensated for his story. Did you know adults 60 plus lose more than$60 billion each year to financial exploitation? Greenlight's new Family Shield plan empowers you to monitor your accounts for suspicious activity, protect yourself with up to$1 million identity theft coverage, and reassure loved ones that you're safe with location sharing and place alerts. Get peace of mind today at greenlight.com slash protect. That's greenlight.com slash protect. You buy a pair of socks, that's two socks.

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26:34it's time for our new game on the winning track brought to you by train line their best price guarantee means you won't find cheaper same day train tickets anywhere else and even if you do train line will refund the difference exclusions and conditions apply search best price guarantee on trainline.com

27:00Gary will place a club on the board now fans have got to guess who it is the only clues they will receive are that the teams that said mystery player are played for from the start of their career to the finish so lone clubs don't want to count the winning team will receive a train line voucher ooh yeah and that will come in handy for the next away day if you guess as you know if you guess straight away and you're wrong you're out to answer you need to shout your name and raise your hand Gary please name the teams as you place them on the board so this is an example Manchester United I know it's well back did they go to Offord or Arsenal first?

27:36Arsenal Arsenal yeah whatever you go on that side right we've got a new game now we've got Flav v Adam brilliant it's the Europa League final Villa is it about there? Villa? somewhere around here? yeah why not West Midlands Bolton slow down you've got to give them a chance slow down This is just typical Gary Neville train. That's Bristol, isn't it? Yeah. How about Bristol, that? It's a bit more to the right, isn't it? It's a bit more to the right. So we've got the Midlands. No, Bristol's down. And the West Midlands, so there's just a little bit of that side. Bolton. Let them have a chance to answer.

28:15There you go. Bolton. Villa to Bolton. I've got a player, but I want to wait one more. Oh. Oh. I think I've got one as well. Adam. J-Lloyd Samuel. That's... That's... No. You're out. Chelsea. What a journey.

28:35I think it's quite tough, this one. I played with this guy. It's very easy. It's very easy. I think it gets harder when you put the next two clubs on. What? I think it gets harder. Because I don't associate him with this club at all. But he did play for them. You coached him as well, didn't you? I did. How did that go? Played with the man who's coached him. Did really well. Good lad for us. I thought you just went out on the group stage of the World Cup. Yeah, that can go to plan. We got there, though. Yeah. Have you got it? Come on, Flav. I haven't got it. Bolton. Villa. No, Villa Bolton. Chelsea.

29:14I can see. I can't. It's not helping. This one is definitely not going to help you. Bournemouth, I know it's down here somewhere. I know, I'll just put it anywhere. That's the last one. Is that around where Bournemouth is? Is it? No, it's not. It's not? Where is Bournemouth? Bournemouth where? Bournemouth, for that way. For this way? Forget that, Flav. Sorry. It's probably about a joke. I'd forget a little bit about, maybe, I'd forget that one, because I don't even remember him going there. This one I do remember him playing a few games. That's the big one. Bolton to Chelsea. He used to pull his hamstring at the end.

29:47That would not give anything away. No one ever remembers this fella pulling his hamstring. Right, OK. Bolton to Chelsea. Sorry, so does that mean I'm a bit more? Do you know who it is? I've got it. no Gary Cahill I'm sorry I'm out I've done it alright Gary Cahill yes well done very easy imagine you do that one imagine not remembering half a bolt into Chelsea right next one right QPR QPR's in alright go on Portsmouth that's down here as well round here somewhere is it miles away Portsmouth I know yeah the other way is it anyone going to have a go where's Portsmouth that side Portsmouth no it's here it is there yeah yeah is it yeah you're going to have a guess QPR to Portsmouth.

30:27No, they won't get that one. I don't think they'll get it off this one either. No. Southampton. Where's that? This side of it? Or in the middle. No, no, no. Left or middle, yeah. There. Oh, you've done it the wrong way round. What do you mean? I've put it in order. No. Sorry. That was confusing me. And now I know it's... You said I don't need it. Right, OK, sorry. I've missed one out. Villa. So QPR Portsmouth. QPR Portsmouth Villa. QPR Portsmouth Villa. I still don't think you'll get it off that. Oh. Obviously, you've seen Southampton. I've got to guess. Is it Gary O 'Neill? No. No. Okay. I wouldn't have got it off that, would you?

31:08You probably would, maybe. QPR Portsmouth Villa. You need this one. I'd get it now. You'd need this one. You get that? You'll get it the next one. You need this one. No, I think I would have got that now. Liverpool. Yeah, I know. Which one? Wait, QPR, Villa. Yeah, exactly the way we put them on. QPR, Villa.

31:30Portsmouth, Southampton, Liverpool. He played with him. I played with him. Any good? Yeah, he's a good player. Yeah. Big character. No. No. Just go with it. Big character. It's not. He didn't play with Portsmouth. Who are you thinking of? It's wrong. Nathaniel Klein. No. No disrespect to Nathaniel Clime, right? Oh, Gary O 'Neill. Those names are not going to be on there, are they? Right, and we go back. Back to Portsmouth. We went back to Portsmouth after Liverpool. Yeah, I'm gone. Who would buy him a Portsmouth? What marriage? How are you in that? It ain't. I mean, is it? You need to just be quiet one second.

32:22Are you around here? Where are you? Tottenham. Where are you? Left of... Yeah, about there. So he went to you. Oh, this is you. All right. Well, I'm out, aren't I? No, go on. You don't know he's out. Go on. I'm out, I guess. Who did you go with? I can't remember what he was wrong. No, you didn't. No, you said you were... Nathaniel Cline. Yeah, I guessed Nathaniel Cline, didn't I? Is it Peter Crouch? Yeah, Peter Crouch. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's all right. It's a tough game. QPR. Right, last one. Last one. It's not half what the game did. I didn't know Crouches had QP on. Tough game. Right, let's go.

32:53Right. Is this one to the sider to win it 1-0? To win it 1-0. Oh, Flav's winning 1-0. United. And you've made the short move to... This is going to fool a couple of us. Where are you, by the way? Where actually are you, Cara? Are you here? We're everywhere. No, but where are you? You're there. You're there. Is it your brother, Adam? Is it your brother? No. I knew that would be the obvious one. You'll get it off this, I think. I don't think anyone's going to get this. I think they'll get this. Oh, go on. I think they'll get it off that. Sunderland. He's not getting that. I'll go off one of you.

33:32Is it John O'Shea? No. Out. Game over. Darren Gibson. So, Darren Gibson is on there, but the other two... I know, I can only apologize. I don't know how Darren Gibson's made the cut. He's making shock. Daniel Klein's still part of it I still respect you Well done Flav You beat Mr McCullough Well done And that hopefully Will be the Europa League final score as well Yeah superb Thank you Flav You've done that right You know Fuzzy Flav you didn't win That's the most shocking way to win the trophy

34:18Another game next time, thanks to Trainline. Remember to download the Trainline app and search best price guarantee on trainline.com.

34:34Keiran, I want to ask you about something that came up in the Premier League maybe about 10 years ago now. It's all taking games abroad. But there's something in Syria now of being approached to hold games abroad in UAE and Australia. Do you think that's a goer? And if it is, is that just opening the floodgates to every other sort of league in Europe? I think it's certainly a goer as far as Serie A is concerned and also La Liga because they don't generate the same amount of money as the Premier League does from the TV deals. I think what the Premier League is doing, it's waiting for somebody else to make that move.

35:09It can't be seen to be having the first mover advantage itself because it knows that there will be a pushback. What we're likely to see is in a couple of years, if this proves to be successful, and it will do, all of these matches will sell out and they will be going for, the base price will be 120, 150 quid a ticket. What you'll then see clubs in the Premier League saying is, well, we don't want to do it, but we need to be competitive with La Liga. We need to be competitive with Syria. So therefore, we're going to copy what they do. And once you start on that particular route, then it's highest bidder.

35:42So, you know, do matches take place in Uzbekistan, in Afghanistan, in Nairobi, in Manila. It's whoever's going to be paying the most in terms of promoting. There is already Italian. Is the Catalan Cup already in? The Celtic Cup. Yeah, that's already in. Yeah, the Super Cup. So is this a full fixture list or one game from that? Initially, it's just going to be a couple of matches. I think what they ideally would like to do is to have the Syria weekend taking place in Australia or UAE or Saudi, wherever it's going to be. and then it can be a huge event which will be promoted and I think that could be very lucrative.

36:20Listen, me and Gary and probably a lot of people here were involved a lot in the Super League situation a few years ago. I just can't get my head around lads who I know who go to watch Liverpool home and away accepting that and these are lads who haven't missed games for like 20 years, they never miss a game, accepting that their team's playing and they can't go and watch it. or it breaks their cycle of not missing a game for so many months. I think there'll be absolute uproar in England, because I'm sure that's the case right across the board in terms of the Premier League and right through the 92.

36:56I can't imagine our supporters would accept that. That's why it's not happened to date. But if you take a look at the reaction to Super League from Spanish clubs, fans in Italy, it was sort of a shrug. Well, we don't particularly like it, but we're not that fast. I think it was the militancy of the fan base. My point being, I'm just asking people in here now, Adam Flav, do you think there'd be uproar if that happened in England where you'd have a Premier League weekend in America, weekday 15 is in America, and you've watched your team home and away for 10, 20 years, and you can't get to that game?

37:33I think, yeah, there should be. I think from certain football clubs there definitely will be, certainly the ones Liverpool, Man United, probably a little bit more active. I think from London clubs, there'll be a little bit more of a passive reaction. Why is that? It's just, I mean, it's political, it's social dynamic. There's lots of reasons why people in London are less born towards activism than the ones in the North West, for sure. But I do think that there'll be a lot of fans that look at it and go, well, we don't like it, but it's going to be worth£20 million. I don't agree, mate. Do you not?

38:09No, I think... Super League, to be fair, didn't involve Palace and Brighton and everyone else. But the feeling was just as visceral because you're trying to take something away. You know, the reason that we all cared so much is because once you let that genie out of the bottle, it's gone. You know, you have one weekend, then it's two, then it's three, then it's... You have to stand on that. Do you know, I guess where it is, in the Super League it was just happening now and something had to be done. Whereas this might be more of a drip-fed problem. It'd have to be two games though, wouldn't it?

38:40Because you'd have to have one away and one at home to make it fair for competition times. I'm not saying... You wouldn't, wouldn't you? You couldn't just have one... You couldn't take United and Liverpool. United play Liverpool not at Anfield one season. That's a massive advantage to United over other people. So you couldn't do that. You'd have to make the reverse fixture or something like that exactly the same, wouldn't you, to have it as a fair competition. It'd be the money men making the decision though. They don't care what the players are managing. I would object enormously to it based on competitive advantage of, say, Liverpool play, don't have to come to Old Trafford or we don't have to go to Anfield.

39:12That's a massive advantage in a season. To not have to play at City is a big advantage. Then imagine you win the league by one goal difference or something like that. Yeah, so I think there's an element. They've got to think about it carefully, I think. But their focus is on making money and not on football and not on competitive balance. How do the NFL do it, if you don't mind me asking? I know that NFL games come over to, obviously, London and to Wembley. How do they do it where they don't lose that sort of competitive advantage? How do they work it? Would their clubs change states and stuff anyway?

39:42Oakland Raiders are now in Las Vegas? They also don't play every one away in one season, do they? But the other thing is as well, they want to come over here because they want to grow that game, right? It was so US-focused. It was like, well, we need to bring it out, whereas the Premier League is big everywhere. That was the same with the Super League. We're perfectly fine doing what we're doing. Whereas the NFL were like, man, we need to grow this. I think the FA Cup will go before the Premier League. Honestly, I think it'll end up being a cup competition. I've thought that in terms of the cup competitions, or maybe the community shield, or a one-off game, or maybe the Carabao Cup final.

40:17It only affects two teams. Speaking as a Palace fan, we've got the FA Cup final. If we didn't get to go to watch our team in an FA Cup final, that's disgraceful. It could be anybody. Obviously, we're in a unique situation in the sense that we haven't won anything. it could be Man City versus Liverpool, and maybe you wouldn't care as much. But you can't rob 35 ,000, 40 ,000 fans at a chance to see their team lift the trophy. What are you doing? Is there any safeguarding in place to stop this potentially happening? Is there anything happening at all? Well, as part of the IFR remit, it's going to be part of the legislation that these types of decisions are likely to be protected, and you have to get fan approval for them.

40:59So we're waiting to see the actual small print of the legislation. But then how do you define fan involvement? Because if you've got a club which has got millions of fans all around the world, they might want that match to be taking place in Riyadh or New York because they've got a better chance of getting a ticket than if it's taking place at Wembley. Would that apply to the FA Cup final as well, where we don't know who's going to be? At the start of the season, you have no idea who's going to be in it. Because my thing is, if you... I'm being a bit conspiracy theorist, so forgive me. But if everybody is worried that, again, Liverpool United is going to go somewhere, Tottenham Arsenal is going to go somewhere.

41:31No one's worried about Tottenham. I'm a little bit worried. Somebody clip that for next week. What I mean is, though, if all of a sudden he feels that's going to happen, like the Super League, then it goes away. They go, oh, we'll just do the FA Cup final. People are like, oh, well, thank goodness. It's only the FA Cup final. But then it goes. And then, you know what will happen? You said it drip feed, right? That's my worry, is that the FA Cup final exists as this. There is no teams connected to it because we don't know. So if that then goes, we all feel, thank goodness it's not our team because what we do there is tribalistic nature and as soon as you've done that you have opened the door and in two years time it will be a game here a game there that's my worry with the Cop semi-finals no one wants to go to Wembley for them anyway how big is this from a financial perspective just so I understand it because United make whatever it is how many millions per match day right they play in America I can understand why they make it but how much extra would they get for that one game in America I think it's a very valid point Manchester United probably make somewhere in the region of six to six and a half million in pounds per home match.

42:26If you're going to have two teams playing over there, you've got to split the money 50-50. So I think people have got to work out the actual intricacies of the numbers. What they're hoping to be able to do, I went to the Summer Series in the United States two seasons ago. I was paying£120 a ticket to watch pre-season friendlies. I go, why am I doing this? It's complete madness. But you look at the merchandise sales, you look at the fact that you know as players what you will be asked to do for that particular week. get there two or three days early, go for some photo shoots, sign up with some new sponsors.

42:59It's that additional money to the gate receipts, which you have to take into consideration as well. United go to Malaysia next week. I just think it's so wrong, hasn't it? No, Kieran. So you say, like, Man United or Liverpool are playing a team lower down. Wouldn't you have, like, a boxing match where maybe the best team at 70 % and the other team at 30 %? I think trying to get the Premier League clubs to vote for that. Remember, you need 14. It depends who's home game, isn't it? It depends who's home game. If you're losing a home game revenue, and let's say it's Palace's away game, they wouldn't be getting anything from that anyway, to be fair.

43:34So you're right. You could give Palace a couple of million quid to play that game, but you could give United the weight of it because it's not their home game. Or you have the 39th fixture, where everybody has a neutral match. How does that work? If you draw, how do you draw that? How do you draw a third? I'm massively against that. I mean, I'm massively going against that one. The community shield's the most likely one, isn't it? But is that game important? But that's a pre-season friendly anyway, so it's got no value. Not for Mourinho, he likes it, he counts it. Changes to the English Super Cup.

44:04That's what it'll be, they'll change the name. United are getting 10 million quid next week, I think, aren't they? That's why they're going to Malaysia, you mentioned it, Adam. They're getting the 10, 12 million quid, which is a big bonus payment for United to get for going for those games, that's why they're going. We'll give it straight to Anthony.

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45:57Right, we're going to bring George in from the Not The Top 20 podcast. Welcome to the show. We're talking a lot about Premier League and your podcast covers the AFL. I mean, the similar sort of arguments and debates we're having here, is that something that we see in the AFL? No one wants to go and watch a League Two game in the United America, so I think we're okay there. But I will if we can... Sorry, sorry.

46:26Your podcast should be called Fuck the 72. No, not the top 20. Luckily, what I'm saying is we don't have to worry about this because the interest, albeit obviously with Wrexham in particular, there is interest out there for... Maybe Wrexham will solve that happen in America one day. But this specific stuff isn't necessarily something that we're worrying about now. but in terms of ticket pricing and the rest of things it's something that's very common still in the EFL where you know we see fans I think we'll talk about later fans getting frustrated around the ability to get hold of tickets around the price of tickets as well so yeah and we're not worried at the moment about our leagues being moved abroad even if Gary would like it but yeah What would you say?

47:10I'd say that But if it was worth sort of two million quid He was all like just giving Palace a couple of mil wasn't he? Oh, man, you're nice to get out of here. You can have two mil. When it's Salford, it's different. But, Gary, as an owner, wouldn't you have an obligation to look at it? If there's a£2 million fee for Salford to go and play, you'd have to, right? The league game's away. Yeah, anything. No, we wouldn't do that. We would. I've been overruled. George, you just mentioned, you know, situations maybe not too similar to the Premier League. but what is the main concern for clubs up and down the pyramid now in the year?

47:51I think safeguarding of clubs is obviously the most important thing. I think as fans we need our clubs to be looked after and recently it's very hard to control what an ownership group does once they're in control of a club but I think it's making sure the right people are going to be in control and that's what's seen Bury in the past go. It's what recently saw Reading in massive trouble until last week as they were taking over. I think for fans now we need to be comfortable and confident that we're in short that the people who are in charge are the right people. And that hasn't always been the case.

48:20I'm hoping that now we're seeing in the last couple of years those tests are more rigorous and we'll see that come out in future weeks. But that's kind of the overarching feeling. I think we also need, and Gary mentioned it earlier, the gaps between leagues. And we have a pyramid that incentivises overspend. We have a league that incentivises teams to go and gamble on a club's future in order to try and achieve. And if they don't achieve, then either the benevolent owner may suddenly say, actually you know what I don't need this I've poured in so much money I don't want to I don't need to keep doing this anymore and walks away or you have a club who suddenly have bills they can't foot and therefore they tumble down the leagues and finding a way for you know for clubs to be more sustainable to remain in the right hands going forward has to be at the forefront of I think all fans minds and we're coming to a stage now where you know there's been I think three years or so of negotiations between the Premier League and the EFL around the new redistribution of TV money.

49:13And that's going to be absolutely essential. Like how we come into an agreement on that to ensure that there is a more appropriate redistribution of the wealth that the Premier League gets. And when you look at the talent that's in the Premier League now and you look at the England squads that go to major tournaments, these guys, a vast majority of them have made their names in the EFL and made their debuts in the EFL. And I think there needs to be a genuine understanding from Premier League clubs that, you know, we're not League One, League Two in the Championship are not just these things that, you know, they exist and it's great but whatever but this is the serious stuff it's essential to the English game and hopefully if they can strike a deal before the regulator has to step in then we'll see a brighter future what future do you see for the EFL what do you see where it's going to look in five or ten years I think it's going to be so important to see A.

50:00how that team the deal between the Premier League and the EFL goes are you confident about that not really no I think the the regulator being appointed and now it seems like we're getting close to the stage with the chairman being put forward in the last couple of weeks. I think the ability that the regulator will have to provide the backstop means that the Premier League are probably going to be more determined to get a deal struck before that. They will do a deal. Exactly. What they've done the Premier League is for five years they've negotiated this deal. They've saved£250,£300 million a year which is£1.5 billion.

50:32They didn't want to do a deal too early because then they thought when the regulator comes in they might have to do another deal. So they've waited for this moment when the regulator will come in and I think they will do a deal. I actually think that there should be fair distribution, but I also think, I agree with the Premier League on one point around fair distribution. They can't just hand more money down and the same thing happen again where the EFL clubs end up in the same position because they've increased their wages. So they do need to put some rules around that money coming down. I think that's really important.

51:01And on the owners and directors test, we've just been through it. So it is unbelievably rigorous compared to what it was five, six years ago. I mean, my mum was at Bury. when she was actually signed the forms to transfer the ownership from the owner that was there to the guy who basically sort of bust it effectively. But now we've just gone through, we were supposed to do the deal at the end of March with the EFL. It took six to eight weeks. We had eight owners, eight sort of people coming in, so it maybe took a little bit longer. But the owners and directors test was really strict that we had to go through.

51:35But also, more importantly, the source and sufficiency of funds for the next four or five years. So they don't just track what you've got in your bank account. They actually go into where that money's come from into your bank account. There's a real, real rigorous process now that's in place, thankfully. And to be fair, as I was going through it, I was like, this is hard work. So I was thinking, having money in the bank should be enough. But they're going back deeper and deeper and making sure that everything was properly checked. And then at the end, they lock you all into a secure funding agreement, which means basically you have to secure to put those funds in place.

52:06so there's a lot lot more rigour involved in what goes through now we've done it in the last few weeks we got it through in May it took two or three months I think longer than we thought just purely because of all the information that you had to go through I think a key point on that as well is that we've seen I think trust between fans of EFL clubs and the EFL itself dwindle because of Bury, because of Maxfield because of Birmingham because of Derby because of Reading and as Gary says a lot of work has been put in by people who've come into the organisation in the last five years or so that goes behind the scenes and the fruits of that will only be seen in the future.

52:42So in terms of some optimism, I'm really hoping that what we see in the next five or ten years are fewer stories like that and hopefully a brighter future where we're not always talking about the next crisis club in the EFL. Keir, I wanted to ask you about parachute payments and you know we have those sort of yo-yo clubs in the Premier League and they go back down. I mean, the question here is what happens in terms of parachute payments for clubs like that? Well, those parachute payments go back to the Premier League. And I think this is a really sensitive issue. We've got Burnley who have come straight back.

53:12So that's saving the Premier League£34 million next season. Leeds have gone back in their second season. So therefore that's saving a further£16 million. If Sheffield United are promoted, that saves another£34 million. So£84 million of parachute payments go back to the Premier League. That will cover just about the Premier League's legal costs in the Manchester City case. So you can see why there's an incentive for the clubs to have the parachute payments at the level that they're at, because it recycles the clubs, which the clubs want, of course, but it recycles the money as well. It's a disgrace, that City case.

53:47It's an absolute stain on the game that that's still going on. I've actually got a lot of admiration for Manchester City and don't buy into this theory that I want clubs to do really well and City have been a great club for a long time. It's an absolute stain on the Premier League and the City that they've been dragging on for years and years and years. It's honestly, it needs to fucking deal with it. It's a joke, that. Absolute joke. And it's getting to the point now whereby we've even sort of sent 10... Exactly what City wanted and are doing. Defending themselves, number one, but secondly, pushing it so far into the long grass that you end up just, like, losing the will to live on it and forgetting about it so you have apathy.

54:21It's like, it's that... It just needs dealing with that. It just needs dealing with it, honestly. It took, what, 14 weeks to hear all of the evidence. I believe there were half a million pieces of written evidence submitted by both parties. That means that the Commission has an awful lot of... They've got to get the decision right, but we stopped in the second week of December, as far as hearing the data, hearing the evidence. We're six months later into the case and nothing's come out of it as yet. So it's frustrating. And I'm on standby from broadcasters every couple of weeks. So my missus is really cheesed off.

54:57Can't go out today. they've heard a whisper, the number of whispers they've heard. It was supposed to come out, the rumour was, I think, in February, March, it was imminent, and it's still not appeared. I think we'd be looking towards the end. When it appears, it's still got another track of time, is that right? That's right. What you will do is you'll hear the verdict as to whether Manchester City had been found guilty or not guilty on the 115 charges, but you won't hear the punishment, likely for another two or three weeks, because they want to go away and reconsider. And then, of course, there's the potential for appeal on both sides.

55:30Although those opportunities to appeal are fairly narrow, I suspect both parties will be looking at it very carefully. Sorry, have you allowed yourself, Kieran, just to think what way it might go, if you had to guess? Well, the burden of proof, I think, in terms of the effective accusation of fraud against Manchester City, which is taking money from the club owners, and disguising that as sponsorship revenue. Manchester City have to be party to the guilt of that. The sponsors have to be party to the guilty of that. And the auditors have to be incompetent or in on it. And they won't be in on it.

56:13So that's a huge... If that one's proven, I think there will be a very, very severe penalty. And the board of directors of Manchester City would have to follow the same route that we saw at Juventus and resign. The other issues, non-cooperation with the Premier League, I think City will quite happily say, well, we're not cooperated. So if they get found guilty of that, there'll be a penalty in terms of a fine because it's a fiscal issue to begin with. The third issue, paying players off book, paying managers off book, I think that one's more complicated but more likely to be found guilty in terms of the burden of proof because the auditors wouldn't be involved because it's a private arrangement.

56:53if the people involved, I think Roberto Mancini, for example, he was accused. I don't think he attended the hearing, though, because he's under no obligation to do so. So where's the proof? It's really difficult to come to answer. On the first one, which is the most serious that you've mentioned, you mentioned about the auditors wouldn't be in on it. You said something like that. What do you mean by that? Well, they wouldn't be in on the fraud. No, but we know the auditors going back sort of eight to ten years maybe weren't as detailed or as sort of what would be... I think auditing, I think, because they've had a big shock, haven't they?

57:27The sort of big five accountants in the last few years, and they've been a lot more strict in terms of how they audit things now, and they're sort of like really on guard. There is a period going back five, six, seven, I'm not talking about City because they made an incredible audit, but certainly I think auditors may not have been as sort of in the weeds as they should have been, sort of the detail of things. Yeah, I'm going to a premiere of a film about fraud in football next week. I've been a whistleblower in terms of when I've seen things that go through which don't add up and that's resulted in complications and commissions for clubs.

57:56They have upped their game because they're so much more aware that they are in the public domain in terms of what's going to be said and what the potential implications and repercussions are going to be.

58:14Right, going back to talking about the Manchester City orders but explain Salford what's happened with no you were involved now yet the lads at Scors the rest of the class of 92 are out how's that come about what's happened? I mean obviously Peter got no money left get your money back no no no one's took any money out I mean, no one's took any money out. I think Peter Lim sort of made us aware of the fact that he wanted to sort of step away from Solveen. He's been incredible with us for sort of like 10, 12 years and we had to basically find new owners and we sort of went out on a... We pointed an advisor, didn't we, to go out and sort of do like a look across the market.

58:58It got to, I think it was maybe December, January, we met a couple of parties, didn't we? And I wasn't that comfortable. And it's turned out right. And to fair, the fact of the matter is we probably would have been in a better position, wouldn't we, where we'd have been probably 20 % minority shareholders between us all. We wouldn't have put the money in, but we'd have done things for the clubbing of the services. But the fact of the matter is we'd have been running around like lackeys for people. And I just thought, no, it can't happen that. So in January, just said, look, we need to go and put a group of people together.

59:27Sort of, you know, if we can put some money in between us, great. And to be honest, it's expensive, isn't it? It's expensive. We've put a lot of money into that football. Peter's put a fortune, but we've put a lot of money in, millions and millions. And nothing? No. Shares are worth nothing. No, to be honest with you, shares in the football club, to be fair for most owners, are actually, other than the passion, the feeling, the love that you get for it and what you do, actually reliability from an investment perspective more than an asset. And we knew that from day one. And we've put money in.

1:00:00And I think it got to January and I thought, no, we just need to bring a group of people together that we can sort of trust, that we know we're not going to have the majority of the club. That was never going to be the case. What Peter did for us, he gave us the majority of the club but put actually most of the money in. He only owned 40%. He gave us 10 % each of the football club. Me, Bec, Scholes, Giggsie, Butty and Phil, which was unbelievable. But that was the point in his life that he was at. He wanted basically to sort of have businesses with us in Manchester, so he invested in the hotel with us, invested in the university and a couple of other projects.

1:00:30And we needed someone that was like him, but people like him don't exist. They don't come along. I'm just thinking, when you look on the outside, you're still involved with Bex and the others have moved away. Is that because the people coming in actually said, we want you to be in charge of this? You know full well when you go and speak to people, they're going to say, what are you putting in? So you have to step up again and you have to put the money in. So me and Bex decided that we would put money in again for the next four or five years, which is a commitment we've all made. And there were eight people that have come in with us.

1:00:56Is the drive right now, because for me looking at you, you look at what Wrexham's doing. Is this, because you're talking about being more sustainable, does that mean there's less money coming into the club? So it's not an idea of, because when I looked at it, like you and Bexford involved people from America, I was thinking, oh, they want to go and do what sort of... No, Jamie, that's what everyone thinks. And I work on the recruitment side of the club, I call Ross and Ryan, obviously, Carl. And that perception has now come a little bit. We've tried to get rid of it for two years. Everyone comes thinking, we want four or five grand a week.

1:01:25We don't have that type of money to do that. Now, that perception has come back a little bit, and you can half understand it. When you see the Birmingham, you see the Recton, you see the people who are involved with Gary and Bex, obviously, and that's just, it's not going to be like that. It's got to be more sustainable. It's not like that. I mean, there's quite a lot of money being promised over the next four years, but to actually... Like, for example, our budget, will it be exactly the same as last year, playing-wise? Yeah, we won't change the budget. And to reverse out of the model that we have, you need two or three years of actually...

1:01:55You can't just go from being invested in this and then obviously become sustainable. You've got players' contracts for two, three years. You've just got generally a model that you've built that you just can't get away from. So we just need to change the model of the club slightly. In fact, quite a bit. And, yeah, I think it'll be a different part. I think it's very different than Wrexham and Birmingham. I mean, you're talking hundreds of millions going into those clubs, particularly Birmingham. That's not what we're looking to do with Salford, to be fair. We want it to be a good football project, but, I mean, I've become...

1:02:24Better so all the agents are watching. I've become obsessed with the club in the sense that you watch every single game. We're literally texting every Saturday afternoon. I've not missed one. I've missed two games in five years in League Two, either on the link or live. If I'm doing 5.15 at Palace and United, I get on the gantry at three o 'clock, I'll watch the game. I've become obsessed with it. I love watching League Two. When you said before about watching League Two, I adore it. Every single week. I like it more than the Premier League games. And I know it sounds crazy. I absolutely love it.

1:02:52I love the Premier League games on Sunday, but I absolutely love watching League Two. it's amazing right we're going to finish with a community question who has got the cheapest ticket prices in the AFL I think so's got to be honest haven't I so's I think it's us on the general match day ticket for a normal not for a concession or maybe for a junior I don't know what that but I look at the comparables every single year and we're committed to the cheapest ticket in the AFL now I don't know what some people coming up from the National League are going to do you know they may be 10 quid we can't win home games as well so that's probably why we're 15 quid a ticket and I know that I saw them for the first time in three years I saw the ticket prices a few weeks ago and I thought that we were still cheapest in Mainair in most areas Will that have to change if you're going to be sustainable?

1:03:38No, that's the one thing I committed at day one to the fans that we would be the most affordable and accessible football club and I won't change on that I'd rather go down than put I'd rather go down than do that that to me at day one was one of the reasons we did it was to be fair try and produce players was main reason but also to make it accessible and affordable and we have produced some players sorry the team's spending a lot more than us in later I think we were like 8th or 8th we were 7th or 8th this year we were 1 budget wise our budget now is moving back each year which is what we want what we need but the other clubs are spending a lot more money they're spending a lot of money the other clubs but there's more foreign owners coming into it, isn't there?

1:04:23Yeah, Carlisle, Jimmy, there's a lot of American owners coming into League 2. Do you think there's a worry there? Because when I see the American owners coming in, like we're seeing Colchester are the latest, Leighton Orient have just been sold to American owners. Yeah. They obviously are coming in with an idea they're going to make money from... I think Leighton Orient had American owners before though, didn't they? They did, yeah. I think they'll be seeing the Wrexham and Birmingham journeys as well. How do they think they can replicate that without the kind

1:04:52and being able to celebrities and being able to market that Birmingham have come in and obviously spent massive money Weren't Trammer doing something similar as well? Yeah there's talk about a kind of star-studded consortium there that hasn't gone through yet but I just I worry about you know I can it seems like now there are fewer local investors who are willing to invest in their club Stockport have an amazing owner local business member he's poured money in and has written it all off in order to do so in Mark Stock but I just worry that We've written all our money off as well for the last 10 years In the last month, we've written the whole of that money off.

1:05:25So basically, the club is just completely debt-free, apart from a small loan that we have on the stadium. We've got no debt in the club. And that's so important, because so many times you see this debt being racked up and fans are asking, where is this going? There's no communication as to whether or not that's hard debt that's going to have to be repaid in time. But there comes a moment, surely, where these consortiums realise that actually, in order to make money from these clubs, it's going to be incredibly difficult to replicate the success of Wrexham, for example. and then very quickly they don't want to lose the money that they're having to pour in and the costs are higher than that.

1:05:55I think to me, I was talking to you before, Kieran, there was a close moment a few years ago where there was a distribution deal on the table and there were also salary caps agreed in League 1 and 2 by all the league clubs unanimously. So every club voted for 1.5 million cap in League 2 and 2.5 million, I think it was, in League 1. If they'd have brought that in, the PFA brought it down by obviously arguing around you can't cap players' wages. But if that had come in with the distribution levels that were being proposed, you would have almost got a sustainable or profitable League 2 and 1. That was a really close moment, that to something that could have been really good.

1:06:31And then you could then recycle those profits that you would make for some clubs into the youth, the academy, the training ground or the stadium. Football needs a big reset that goes across basically the Championship, League 1 and League 2. And it's about capping costs, greater revenue, and getting to that point where the game is sort of balanced. And on that point, are you, as an owner of a club, because I've seen, take Plymouth Argyle, for example, under Simon Hallett, who was immensely popular having taken them out of League One into the Championship, and they weren't losing any money at that point.

1:07:03Clearly then, when you move up, success brings on higher costs, and they started losing money, and now they're returning back down to League One, having been relegated, and the owner's reputation having put more heads and hands in his pockets, It's partly because of decisions made in terms of managerial appointments and other things, but his reputation is now not as good as it once was with the fan base. So as an owner, success brings on higher costs and higher losses when fans expect you to put your hands in your pocket to cover those. To be fair, that's one problem we don't have. The money we've spent on our football club, we could have easily bought a League One club.

1:07:36100 % could have bought a League One. The reason we didn't is that we wanted to build a football club from scratch. They had 100 fans at the time, Salford. I'd lived through Bury whereby once you've got a club that's got legacy fans for 80 years, 90 years you're never really the owner of that club so every fan that comes to Salford we respect enormously but they're there because of the things that actually we've done in the last 10 years which is a great position as owners to be in so we can't be accused of lacking spirit or fight or putting money where our mouth is, we can never be accused of that at Salford because we haven't got say 10 ,000 fans like Plymouth have that have been there for a long time that have had opinion that's based on a history, whereas we're still building that sort of if you like, history.

1:08:17But we have competed against some big clubs in League 2, you think of the Bradford. As Gaz said there, the first game we went to was Curse and Ashton, I think there was 80 people there, wasn't there? Yeah. I think we have an average of around 3 ,000 now. Just under 3 ,000. But again, you're competing against people like Bradford. Bradford, I reckon the last four or five games we're getting 20 ,000. Yeah. We just, you know, getting to that point, whether it's possible, I don't know, but that's the ambition that's there. That's the end of the show. So thanks for joining us for another episode of The Fan Debate, brought to you by Skybet.

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