Gary Neville: The Triumph and Tragedy of the Busby Babes - It Was What It Was

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1:13They do feel that good. And they do good too. One item purchased equals one item donated. To feel good and do good, go to Bombas.com and use code audio for 20 % off your first purchase. That's B-O-M-B-A-S dot com and use code audio at checkout. Group health insurance can challenge company budgets. But now, a new form of employer coverage called an ICRA can help. Unlike group insurance, ICRAs offer predictable costs and stable employer contributions. Learn more at ambetterhealth.com slash ICRA. Hi, it's Gary Neville here. This week, I'm on our football history podcast, It Was What It Was, to talk about one of the most important and tragic events in football history, the Munich Air Disaster.

1:55In each episode, two of the UK's best football journalists, Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson will tell you more about the history of the game, with new twists on well-known tales and many stories you won't have heard anywhere before. Subscribe to It Was What It Was wherever you get your podcasts and take a trip to Football University.

2:22Welcome to It Was What It Was with me, Rob Draper, and with Jonathan Wilson. And we're recording this on Monday, February the 3rd, just a few days before the 67th anniversary of the Munich air disaster. The Munich air disaster is, of course, principally a tragedy for the people involved and their families. But it is also an event that arguably defines modern British and European history and, of course, Manchester United's history itself. And to introduce a three part history that we will be doing on the Munich air disaster. we're joined by someone who would have learned about this event and its significance from very earliest childhood who's bound up in the Manchester United community a season ticket holder as a child who went on to represent the club at youth level and then win the treble including eight Premier Leagues three FA Cups two World Club Cups and two Champions Leagues there's arguably few people better able to articulate and understand what the Munich air disaster means to Manchester United than Gary Neville.

3:22Gary, welcome to the show. It's great to be here, Rob, in this obviously very important week that comes around every year for Manchester United. So, Gary, I'm somebody who's a complete outsider in this. I've got no connection to Manchester, no connection to the club, but I find it a hugely emotional topic, I think. That's partly because of the amount of work I've done on Bobby Charlton, partly because I've done a lot of work on the Torino side that's wiped out in the Supergore disaster in 1949. I was with Zambia in 2012 at the Cup of Nations when they won the tournament in Libreville 19 years after their team was wiped out at Libreville but I can't imagine what it must be like to be somebody from the area somebody who's a fan of the club who's played for the club and not just that but a club that's so synonymous with bringing through its own with youth development and two of those generations are celebrated above all others you are in the Class 92 and the Busby Dirt Babes I think that's something we'll be probing over the course of this episode.

4:20But to start with, can you give us some idea of the young Gary? How do you get into football? How do you get attached to Manchester United? And at what point does the story of Munich seep into your consciousness? Yeah, I mean, I think I remember sort of glimpses of my childhood, important moments. I remember being in the car with my dad and my granddad going over Barton Bridge, which is the M62 it was, it's now the M60. And knowing that once I got over Barton Bridge, this idea of when you're a kid in a car, how far am I away? Are we nearly there? You don't know where you are when you're a kid in a car and you're five, six years of age.

4:57But I knew once we went over Barton Bridge, we were coming off pretty quickly. And then we were heading up sort of Chester Road towards Old Trafford. I remember sitting with my dad and my granddad in Marina's Grill at the top of what's the matter, Busby Way now, and having food. I remember queuing up to get into the K-Stand. We used to use my dad's friend's season tickets who'd moved away. I remember most of all being on the concourse and walking up whilst my dad stayed below and had a pint and just walking up and seeing this incredible thing, which was Old Trafford. But I suppose the sort of consciousness of Munich would come from my granddad and my dad's stories.

5:34What I remember first is my dad and my granddad from Bolton. So the 1958 Cup final is one of the most significant moments in Bolton Wanderers history. And you think about the Nat Lofthouse challenge on Ray Woods, and that was thing of legend. To my dad and my granddad, they were from Bolton, but they were Manchester United fans. And that's how the sort of Munich stories would come in about off the back of the fact that Manchester United had lost this incredible bunch of players, Roger Byrne and Duncan Edwards and Tommy Taylor and the like. You hear the sort of stories of how these players were.

6:07The one that always rises to the top and the one that no Manchester United fan can ever get away from, even though you never see him play, and very few have seen him play, is Duncan Edwards, because he obviously lived slightly longer than the babes that passed away and obviously lost his life, I think it was a few days, a week later or so. And the way in which people talked about Duncan Edwards was that he was this giant, this almost like mythical godlike figure in Manchester United's history. You then think of Samat Busby coming back to manage the team and how obviously this was, you know, and I look back now and I reflect, you know, my granddad had lived through World War II and it was a tough generation of people who'd lived through a lot.

6:48And he was telling this story about how the upset and the devastation it caused just in the sort of local community, but nationally as well and internationally. They never really explained to me how it built Manchester United to what it is today, but that was explained to me later more when I joined the club at the age of 11 through to the age of sort of 14, 15, when Nobby Stiles, Brian Kidd joined and Sir Alex Ferguson grained these things into you. But certainly my first understanding of Munich was listening to the stories of my dad and my granddad and how this legend is passed on to every single Manchester United fan, no matter what age you are.

7:23So, Jimmy, do you remember being told the story for the first time? Was it your granddad or your dad sitting you down to tell you? Or had you, I don't know, seen the clock or something and asked what that was about? No, it wasn't the clock. It was more around the facts of the story. And what I remember was asking and probing around the fact that it was the third time, obviously, that they tried to take off. And unfortunately, back then, what I do remember in my childhood is the song that we're no longer here anymore. And that song was sung a lot to me by Liverpool fans. And I heard, obviously, at grounds sung quite a lot.

8:00And you ask what the other fans are chanting. That's one of the things that you do. you ask your dad, you ask your granddad, what are they saying? And they'll explain to you this song. And this maybe was when I was probably a little bit older, I was when we were eight, nine or 10. And this song was sung to me at school by Liverpool fans. And it was something that actually went right the way through, probably, I think, the Hillsborough disaster and tragedy had a big impact on tragedy chanting in respect of, sort of, it became less acceptable to the point now where I don't hear that song anymore.

8:32but you then sort of start to ask the questions about sort of the runway and how it happened and then you start to hear about the fact that it was the third time of trying to take off and this understanding that trying to connect the dots I remember as a kid thinking about the fact they played in Belgrade but the crash was in Munich and understanding that they'd actually stopped in Munich I think to refuel and that the fact that obviously there was poor conditions that They tried three times to take off. And I said, why did they carry on trying? You know, surely they were red flags. Surely something happened.

9:06And, yeah, so, I mean, even a few weeks ago, I was at a Manchester United fan's house who's probably well into his 70s now. And he's got memorabilia and paper cuttings of the Busby Babes. And it's really ingrained in the older Manchester United fans. But then they passed down this sort of... But for me, it was the tragedy chanting. It was the sort of inquisitive nature of me of asking what this song meant and thinking then about sort of why this happened and how it happened. And you hear a lot more, obviously. Then you get into the details of Duncan Edwards and what happened. And then you start to hear about Harry Gregg helping people out of the actual playing.

9:43All this thing comes to the fore then. You start to ask more questions. Well, it's bizarre you mentioned, or not bizarre, but it's very pertinent you mentioned that song because I was chatting to my mistress about this last night and she was saying, when did you first hear about it? I think it was the song, and asking my dad, what's that about? It's astonishing that's how I was sort of as kids, that's how I weigh into it. It is, but it was part of what would be sort of maybe 1980s culture, fan culture, and you tried to leave one on your opponent to your rivals as much as you possibly could. You know what I mean?

10:16The aeroplane signs at Old Trafford, I mean, that was a constant. That was a constant up when I was playing, in the early days of me playing, my early parts of my career, the airplane sort of signs. And United fans would get incredibly angry and angrier and angrier to the point whereby it was, obviously, it was inciting violence in some way. It was inciting violence. But that was a large part of being a United fan in the 80s, that this sort of, and I don't know when it started. I mean, I've never asked that question. Maybe it's something we can find out. Did it happen straight away in the 60s and 70s, or did it something that just emerged as obviously maybe a generation had passed and this sort of new generation of fans that were 20 years maybe later maybe thought, okay, we can start to sort of, it's a bit far back now, we can start to joke about this and sort of, you know, why are United fans up?

11:07No, I think it is pretty quick, actually. I think in David Peace's book, he talks about it being almost immediate. I think there's an incident, as a Sunderland fan, to my shame, at Berger Park, there's an incident. I think Burnley with Bob Lord, the chairman of Burnley I think was very critical of United he was accusing them of almost capitalising on the disaster that was one of Bolton I mean Bolton's rivalry with United which is hatred I mean I know that coming from the local area I think comes from that period where Bolton were obviously a fantastic team and they don't feel they got the credit and sort of love because of obviously the love all went towards Manchester United yeah so we should explain when you talked about the cup final before that after the crash fresh United comeback.

11:51And I think they only win one more league game that season because obviously they're cobbling together whatever team they can. But they do somehow get through to the cup final where they lose 2-0 to Boston. Which I think is the most extraordinary part of that story, isn't it? That A, they played on and B, the reserves and those kids, all of whom must have been going through their own trauma and the staff, that they just continue playing on very much post-war generation stuff, isn't it? Yeah, I mean, look, Rob, I mean, to be fair, you mentioned Sir Bobby Charlton before, Jonathan. It blows my mind, and he wasn't the only one, Harry Gregg and others, that continued to play after that and do what they did.

12:33And Samat Busby, obviously the manager, how he really built Manchester United, and I'm sure we'll come on to that in a bit. And that 10-year period between Munich in 58 and obviously winning the European Cup in 68. But you think about Sir Bobby Charlton, And Sir Bobby Charlton, and it's a simple thing, but it came to every single Manchester United away European game, I think, whilst I was playing as a director. And every time Sir Bobby used to walk onto the plane, I used to, as obviously just knowing about this sort of, I used to think about it. I know other lads did as well. We used to think about how that must trigger him inside, that he lost his brothers, his teammates, his family almost.

13:17because I know how we felt about each other in the class of 92. We've been together since we were 12, 13. You've experienced everything together. You are brothers, just obviously not connected by blood. And the idea that he obviously went on to do what he did for Manchester United, for England, and then obviously represent the club as a director, it used to make me think all the time, the toughness and the resilience of Sir Bobby Charlton and the others who continued, obviously, with their lives and what choice did they have other than just continue with their lives but it's a tough generation and I would never say that this generation now is not tough but some of the things that they had to cope with I can't even imagine.

14:01Did you ever speak to Bobby about it specifically or? Do you know I didn't do I didn't speak to him about it and I remember when I actually finished playing my career I went on a trip to Chile with him and spent 15 hours on a playing. He also, when we got to Chile, he told stories about some of the games that he played, some of the players that he played. I remember him talking about Duncan Edwards, but it was almost like something that you never wanted to mention to him. You never felt comfortable enough mentioning to him. And in 1991, it will have been, when we joined Manchester United, our first trip was over to Northern Ireland to the Milk Cup and staying in Harry Gregg's hotel.

14:41and Nobby Stiles and Brian Kidd were with us. So we won that competition. People say the first trophy we won, the class of 92, was the Youth Cup in 92, wasn't it? It was the Milk Cup, which was a big tournament in Ireland. And Harry Gregg talking to us about the actual history of the club and sort of he would mention and talk to us about the stories of the place, but again, never about the actual crash, never about the actual tragic incident that happened. No, so it wasn't something that you asked. It wasn't something that you brought up. but you knew it was always there and it gives me goosebumps even now when I'm speaking about it and one of the things that I always wished that I'd done so Samat Busby was still the president of the club I think in 1991 when we joined and the manager used to send us over to the Old Trafford every single Monday to do jobs that was part of the sort of what he wanted he was grounding you basically so on the Monday afternoon we'd be either in the Megastore we'd be with the ground staff we'd be in the general office we could be doing any sort of job around the ground with other teams within the departments at Old Trafford but if you're in the general office Samat Busby's you had to go past Samat Busby's office and he was always there the door was always open you could always smell the smoke coming from that pipe and you'd say hi Samat and he'd say hi son on the way past and when I think back now you I almost wanted to get past that door as quickly as possible because of aura and presence and you know the idea of feeling that you don't know not because of anything he was doing he was sort of welcoming us by having his door open and I can't believe I didn't go in and talk to him just about Manchester United because there were many times where I passed his door we all did all the class of 92 did all the other apprentices did I never went and just sat down and spoke to him just for half an hour 20 minutes about the club and what I don't see I know the interviews, I've seen him speak, I know his quotes, but the idea of just having that sort of first-hand experience of a conversation with him, and it's one of the things that I can't believe that I didn't do it because, you know, it's just something that you didn't do.

16:45You just walked past and said, you know, respectfully high and yeah, there are many things that I remember in my early days that sort of bring you back to that history and I think Sir Alex Ferguson was the first manager post-Sumab to embrace the history of Manchester United and and rely upon it actually rather than feel that it was a sort of a negative presence and that it was something that we needed to move on from. We needed to actually tap into it. We needed to sort of tap into this sort of history and this meaning of what this club is. I mean, that's a really interesting point. So, I mean, do you think the other managers were almost sort of overawed by it, that it was almost too big that they felt they couldn't sort of almost compete without?

17:27Well, if you look at it, Sir Alex Ferguson almost mirrored what Samat did in many ways. An obsession with the Champions League, the European Cup, obviously, as it was back in the 60s, but an obsession with the Champions League. Remember, Samat Busby was the first manager to take a team into Europe against the wishes of many. He was a pioneer. Now, Sir Alex Ferguson's ambition was always to build Champions League, a European Cup winning team. but to do it in the principles of Samat Busby I'm going to basically develop my own players we're going to play entertaining attacking football and we're going to win the Champions League and it took him a long time to do that but when he came down from Aberdeen in 1986 and he overhauled the youth system straight away which I was part of at that time I actually joined the club whilst from Atkinson was manager as an 11 year old in August 1986 so Alex Ferguson came in obviously later that year in November, December so actually we you know Brian Kidd, Les Kershaw Nobby Stiles, Eric Harrison coming down and coaching Archie Knox coming in and coaching us the boss being present, all happened post 86, but before then it was a different group of coaches, they were all moved out and the new coaches were moved in that obviously were sort of tapped into the history of the club, so what he didn't do he brought in Nobby Stiles, he brought in Brian Kidd he went and said I'm going to develop our own youth system which young players, which he did at Aberdeen, he believed he could mould them into a team that would run through a brick wall for him.

18:53And this was tapping into Samat Busby, obviously another great Scottish manager. So he didn't, rather than sort of look at what Samat Busby did and think it's got to be different 30 years on, he looked at what Samat Busby did and thought, right, I need to emulate that because that's what this club needs. Manchester United have had two periods in their history of great success with two great Scottish managers who've brought through young players develop their own. I think that's really interesting though, isn't it? That Sir Alex, also a great influence, would have been Jock Steen and that Celtic team of 67, wouldn't it?

19:27And obviously, Sir Matt's side. But probably younger listeners won't appreciate the greatness of Sir Alex Ferguson. One level of his greatness was the micromanagement. It's like literally getting more scalps in Manchester to make sure you were first to the players and Man City were first to players. And he was managing in that sort of detail and it wasn't enough for him to succeed at Manchester United. He had to succeed in this particular way, emulating Steen, emulating Busby. It was a long-term project, as everybody knows. It took him seven or eight years to win the league and the thought process is that Sir Bobby Charlton and Martin Edwards were seeing the foundations that were being laid beneath the sort of, if you like, first-team failures around that time, that the work that he was doing was good work and that he transformed the youth.

20:14I mean, he transformed the youth. I got there as an 11-year-old. But quickly after that, Ryan Giggs came along, Scholes came along, Buck came along, Beckham and Savage and Gillespie. All these players came. We called them out of town, lads. If you weren't from around the Manchester area, you were out of town. So all of a sudden, you're right, he absolutely was scouring, leaving no stone unturned, making sure that Manchester United had a presence at every single youth match, under 11s, 12s, 13s, 14s, across the greater Manchester area and beyond. and he wanted to make sure that Manchester United got every single talented player possible into their youth system.

20:51And one of his great, I mean, this is throwing it forward, but there were many times where Sir Alex Ferguson would basically count and he'd get the coaches in the room and the players. It might be an away game. And he would say, OK, how many players have we got in the first team squad here that have come through the ranks? And then what he would then go on to do is count the players who were playing at a high level in professional football that had come through the Manchester United system. He had unbelievable pride in saying that there were 68 players or 72 players or 56 players, I don't know who it was, that were playing in professional football that had been produced by the academy that he'd overseen and managed.

21:30That was a real big thing for him. It wasn't just producing players for the United, it was producing players who had a great career. It was something that was embedded in the club. But he can't get away. When I hear now, the team is struggling at this moment in time, and I hear people talking about the fact that the aura and presence of Alex Ferguson, the director's box, the aura and presence of pundits that used to play for United, it's too much for these current players. And I'm like, hang on a minute. I mean, seriously, if that's where we're at, that you can't be inspired about what this club can achieve and what this club can be by its history, then to be fair, you probably shouldn't be there in the first place.

22:11Every time I walked onto that pitch for United as a youth team player, I knew we wore those blazers. We wore those blazers that the Busby Babes wore. We couldn't escape the history of the club around us, the aura of the club around us. That was an inspiration. That's what you represented. That badge, you're representing the Busby Babes when you walk out onto that pitch. You're representing Nobby Stiles and Dennis Law and Sir Bobby Charlton and Liam Whelan and Mark Jones and all those four, you're representing them every single time you play. If you don't think that when you're playing at a club like United, honestly, I genuinely don't believe that you care enough.

22:49If you don't know, and I'm not saying this, it's easy for me to say this as a local player, but if you speak to Ole Gunnar Solskjaer or you speak to Patrice Evra or you speak to these lads who came from sort of different parts of the world, they bought into this, this attachment to this history and the importance of it and the style of playing, how we win and how we play and what we do. We get mocked now to say what a Manchester United player looks like, but I can hear Sir Matt Busby saying, you're a Manchester United player. I can hear Sir Alex Ferguson saying, what it takes to be a Manchester United player.

23:25And that's something that's mocked now. Obviously, sometimes I say, you know, this is Manchester United, and it sort of becomes a bit of a meme or whatever it is nowadays. but the reality of it is if you've been there and you've understood it and you've been ingrained it you understand it and I think when Jurgen Klopp comes to Liverpool I don't see him thinking that sort of Kenny Dalglish is a negative presence in the boardroom or that maybe Ian Rush is a negative presence in the boardroom or the club's history is something to be something it is something to be held back by no he embraces it and the great people the great managers the players who've got personality and character they tap into this there it's a reason to keep going it's a reason you have to find in a 15 20 year career at Old Trafford many reasons for wanting to keep going yeah of course your own personal pride and your own standards but there are moments where you have to dig deeper and it might be your grandparents it might be you know when you're coming up to the Munich Air anniversary the Munich Aircross anniversary you might tap into this all these players you've played before you and even the players in the 80s that I grew to love like Norman Whiteside and Brian Robson and Mark Hughes and Joe Jordan and Martin Buck and, you know, Arthur Olbison and Mike Duxford.

24:37These were people I looked at still as heroes when I played at United, even though they didn't play in an era where we won the league. Let's bring this first half to an end and we'll be back after the break with Gary's thoughts on why it's important to continue to memorialise the tragedy for the identity of Manchester United. Why does every recipe I try need 18 ingredients, including a jar of something paste I'll never use again, but will sit in my fridge for nine months? I just want dinner in the oven fast. That's why I love Blue Apron's new one pan assemble and bake meals. They send you fresh ingredients that are already chopped.

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26:43I never used to talk to anyone before the game, like my own family. You open the paper and it's rugby's on its knees. You're like, is it? He's the most hated man in Wales. If I've got something to say, I'll say it. What's the worst injury you've all had? I broke my nose in New Zealand, broke it on Saturday and played on the Wednesday. Breaking your nose is the worst thing ever. You can't not play. I had 14 stitches down the front there. I said, I don't need anaesthetic, just do it. And they're like legend. You're hard-ass, mate, hard-ass. Are we excited? Oh, yeah. Vicious rumour is we're recording a podcast called Stick to...

27:16Rugby. Stick to rugby, that's it, not football. Not football. I couldn't think of a better group of old men that I'd like to hang out with a brand new podcast that dives into the game we love like never before stick to rugby we'll talk rugby but not the usual chat Mike Johnson, hard as ****, get it out of it we'll cover the big talking points but we'll share the great stories too I lost once in Scotland, it was the worst day of my life and then I appeared on the front page of the news the world of following week

27:46look at Flats there, holding a ball He won man of the match once and didn't touch the ball. Big opinions. The number of people playing rugby is going down and down. And then when that needs to change. And some wicked guests. We need to widen the audience a bit. Who have you got in your Facebook? Jude Law, Ray Winston, Daniel Craig. Madonna. And that's a wrap. Wrap. This is the one rugby podcast you can't miss. Make sure you subscribe to Stick to Rugby. Brought to you by Defender.

28:21Welcome back to the second half of interview with Gary Neville about the Munich air disaster and its continuing importance. So when you joined the club, did somebody sort of, I mean, obviously you as a local wouldn't need it, but when one of the out-of-towners comes in, would somebody sort of take them aside and explain that history, explain what the babes were, or was that just something they absorbed? I think the manager, you know, a lot of players tell this story when the manager signed a player, he'd take you for a walk onto Old Trafford. And I think that was maybe not going into the detail of the Busby Babes and sort of Matt Busby, but I think it's certainly an element of explaining what this means.

29:00This isn't just a job. You know, when you walk out onto that pitch and you represent these people here, it's more than just a job. You are ingraining you into a sort of higher sort of feeling of loyalty and trust and belonging, if you like. And I think that's what he did. He created a siege mentality, but through a loyalty and a trust. Of course, there was a loyalty and a trust to him, but there was a loyalty and a trust to the club. The club were important, the fans were important, and he would explain that. So I think you're right. I mean, I think that ultimately, you know, you became as you got older.

29:36You know, I used to remember sort of lads, maybe young lads, when I was 30, I was captain, I might be injured. And I remember lads would walk into the gym with a bit of a sort of sullen face, a bit miserable. What's up with you? You know, say what's up with you. I genuinely would. And, you know, they have that sort of, how are you? Are you all right today? Yeah, I'm okay. Okay. That's why I always say I'm unbelievable. You know, if people ask me how I am, unbelievable. absolutely unbelievable. And I used to say that if you've got that badge on your shirt, it can never be a bad day. You haven't got a bad day if you've got that badge on your shirt.

30:08The bad day is when you've not got it on your shirt. You know what I mean? You move somewhere else or you've retired. So those things are ingrained in you, and it might sound a little bit now sort of – but that's how it was in that dressing room. The standards were very, very high, and your expectations were that you can't come in and be moping around. You can't come in and sort of like, you know I'm a fair to mid-lid just didn't exist because you were built into this psyche of sort of no this is unbelievable this What was the sort of specific inspiration that you joined the club in 1986 that you know that 30 years earlier essentially a United Youth team comes through together and wins two league titles and yeah The most obvious example I can think of which is quite small maybe to some but that I think always now, particularly when I reflect upon it, and sometimes it used to drive me and the other players bloody crazy.

31:03We travelled to Malaysia on a pre-season tour, and you imagine you need to wear a tracksuit on a 13-hour flight, don't you? You need to be comfortable, you can't. We had to turn up at the airport in our blazers, in our shirts and tie, and if your tie was slightly lower, then maybe you're leaving a bit of a button showing at the top. Put your tie up, son. Do you know what I mean? You get that. Get your tie up, son. You're representing Manchester United. You know what I mean? That's what he would say to young players. He'd say to me, he'd say to anybody who didn't have quite a tie up. And we'd say, boss, can we travel in tracks?

31:36He'd say, no. You're representing Manchester United. You're walking through an airport. People can bloody see you. Anyway, on the play, you'd take a hanger with you. You'd hang your blazer up, your shirt, your tie, your pants, all in a blazer. You'd put it literally into the sort of wardrobe at the front. And you'd go back and you'd put your tracksuit on, all the pyjamas that they're there. line would supply you, you lie down. And then before we got off the plane at the other end, that blazer had to go back on. And it's something that, to be honest with you, it sticks with me now as being, because the image I always see of the Busby Babes, it's obviously the one of the last line-up, which is something that sort of never leaves you.

32:15But also when they're actually stood on the steps of a plane wearing their blazers, that's something that just never leaves me. When they're stood outside Old Trafford and they're wearing their blazers, they've all got the old Mancunian crest on. So it's not the Manchester United badge that's on the blazers, it's the old Manchester crest. I think that's really important. I think it's really important what that represents. And I think Sir Alex Ferguson knew what that represented. It represented a direct correlation. So Paul McGuinness, who became the youth team coach during the Sir Alex Ferguson period, all the young players had to have blazers.

32:47Every reserve team player had to have blazers. We wore blazers to away grounds every single game. We played at Luton away, Bolton away, Liverpool away. We walked in with our club blazer on. It was non-negotiable, absolute non-negotiable. Manchester United's players were blazing. And that's what I used to like about Arsenal, actually, under George Graham. I think he used to have a similar principle of they had to wear the blazers. I used to think it's a club with tradition and sort of history, but that's the biggest, it's the smallest thing in some ways, because does wearing a blazer help you in a football match?

33:21It can't, can it, really? because you're relying upon your repetition of practice and your quality and your personality and your fitness and many different things, your tactics, all those things. But what you're building here is a sort of a higher meaning and a feeling inside you that sort of you stand for something, you represent something. And that's the one thing that I always remember with the boss. I actually, as captain, said, boss, can we wear it? He actually let us in there and used to wear tracksuits for home games, but never away and never whilst we were travelling through an airport.

33:48they're markers of identity and i guess which are handed down generation generation how how easy is that to continue i was thinking obviously you talked about patrice and ollie uh in the noughties when you're getting this influx of foreign players now you have managers coaches from all over the world um you've got players and and younger players you might have forgotten these kind of additions how easy was it to explain that to the foreign players and were there some who just didn't get it and how easy do you think it will be going forward to retain the sense of identity and what Manchester United is because it's gone through multiple identities since then it has look there's got to be guardians of the clubs I mean now they would call it a brand but what is Manchester United's brand that feels like cheapening it though doesn't it oh absolutely brand absolutely but there are one saying to you absolutely I would say guardians of your principles and your values that's what I would call it but nowadays you'd look at it and think that it's a brand.

34:46That is literally something to be commoditised, isn't it? It is, but whatever we want to call it. If you're the current Manchester United owners or if you're the current Manchester United players, the current Manchester United staff, what you'd want to do is create a club that can belong in 2025, that's got all the sort of modern thinking and intelligence that you would need to be a top team in this era. So you remember, Alex Ferguson, Braves Sports Science, he pioneered rotation. He pioneered putting kids into the Carabao Cup games and giving people a chance. He pioneered having four strikers and rotated them around.

35:25He was the one who basically sort of, you know, first built a training ground that cost 30, 40, 50, 60 million with all the technology in there, the nutrition. You know, I know people say Arsene Wenger brought a lot from Arsenal. That's absolutely true. But Charlottes Ferguson, he was traditional and principled, but always move with the times. He didn't stand still. And there's this idea that, oh, you're living in the past. No, no. You can reflect upon the club's principles, values, and what we stand for, and be a modern club that lives in the future. Manchester United shouldn't change certain things.

36:01Produce young players, play entertaining football. You've got a game model that's existed, to be fair, for 70 years, and current teams play it and win as much as you can. you have to try and win. Now that sounds crazy because every team tries to win but I'm talking throwing the kitchen sink at it to win. I'm talking taking risks to win and that was something that was ingrained in us, absolutely ingrained in us and Dennis Law, God bless his soul, if you spoke to Dennis Law which he's the one, he's the greatest player that I've ever had the privilege of having company with where he would speak to you entertaining and attacking and scoring goals and going forward is everything.

36:40It's everything when you listen to people like Dennis Law speak about football. I think that ultimately the modern Manchester United need to tap into the history, not rely upon it. It's not going to win your football match, but tap into it. Help you build something that's a value system that's powerful. Understanding that you've got to apply it in 2025. You've got to apply it in 2025. And that's the challenge. Clop did it at Liverpool after 30 years of no success. He tapped back into the people of Liverpool. He tapped back into what made Liverpool great. Understanding the club's history, making sure that he understood Hillsborough.

37:20He understood the importance of Hillsborough. He understood the people in the city, what made them tick. You have to be a statesman-like figure to be a presence at Manchester United and Liverpool and clubs like this. You've mentioned him a couple of times already, but would you say Nobby Siles, that bridge? from 60s to your generation? Eric Harrison, Nobby Stiles, but I'll talk about Nobby Stiles. Eric Harrison and Nobby Stiles were my B team and A team and youth team coaches. So I spent three, four years under these two people. They took us to the Milk Cup. They got us to the class of... They were the class of 92 coaches.

37:55Nobby was... I was playing fourth, 15 as the B team coach. Nobby was an aggressive, hard... I'm going to say horrible because he was a great man and a brilliant man. But football, When he sent you out onto the pitch, you were left in absolutely no, there was no uncertainty whatsoever that you had to go out there and it was a battle and it was a fight. And he used to say to us, your best friends are your six studs. There would be his words in the dressing room to us. If you didn't win a tackle or you sort of half went into a header or a tackle under Nobby Stiles, I didn't go to United as a tough, resilient, competitive defender.

38:35I was built into that off Nobby Stiles and Eric Harrison. They were hard as nails, these two. One was a gritty, brilliant midfield player for England United and Eric Harrison was a tough 5 '11 centre-back who played for Halifax. And they played in the times of football where tackling was horrible and nasty. So you absolutely, football was mentioned, passing the ball, get the tempo you're passing. but the other side of the game and the competitive element and what you're representing and how you had to win your fight and your duel was number one. It was number one. You had to be hard to beat. You had to be tough to beat.

39:15And that was really pushed into us and hammered into us really early. Do you think the emerging values of the 50s and 60s and Samad in that instance, do you think that was handed directly down? Yeah, I feel blessed. I feel blessed of the people I was exposed to. Eric Harrison, Nobby Stiles, Brian Kidd, Sir Alex Ferguson, my parents, because they built me piece by piece, developed me piece by piece into what I am today. There is a moment that goes by in my life. When you talk about coping mechanisms, resilience, robustness, persistence, attitude, all those things that we're looking for in our children, in our people who we work with, people who we employ, people who we work for, We want those type of characteristics.

40:04You can develop those. They're not things that you're born with. You're not born an amazing leader or a great communicator or the most robust individual in the world. It's being around people like Roy Keane, Paulins, Nobby Stiles, Eric Harrison, Brian Kidd, Sir Alex Ferguson. They're passing on their sort of values of a principle to my parents. When my dad and my granddad are telling me about Ray Wood's getting absolutely battered off in that loft house, and that's how it was, they're sending you messages that you've got to be tough to play football. You've got to be, it's a competitive world.

40:38And ultimately, you know, it'll be you or someone else. You'll get released next year when you're talking about the centre of excellence. It's you or him. It's that type of, they're ingrained in you these types of experiences. That's something that, you know, ultimately, these were high performing, high level people. A lot of them, we won European Cups and they knew what it took and they handed that down to us. They handed that down to us, the importance of working hard every single day, doing your very best, nothing less, never giving in, and then coming back the day after and doing it again.

41:11These were simple messages, but they're really effective if the people who are listening to them understand them and actually take them in. I don't know if you ever discussed his own experience in Munich with Nobby Siles, but for people who don't know, he was a youth team player at the time. They hear at the training ground there's been a crash, but they don't know how bad it is. he's taking the bus home i think the number 112 bus and he picks up a newspaper and realizes most of them are dead and he has to sort of you know just burst into tears and rise yeah because he's a devout catholic he rushes into into a church to pray yeah and then i think i think this is one of the just the awful details the the skip with all the kit comes back that hasn't really been damaged and so he he has to go through and clean the boots so he takes tommy taylor's boots and in the end, Tommy Taylor was his big hero apparently at the time and gives the boots to the Club Museum in the end.

42:05But that must be such a horrendous... I don't know if he talked to you about that at all. No, no, he didn't talk to me. I've heard the story about him reading the newspaper and crying, but I hear a lot of stories of the people who were around at that time or have over the last 20, 30 years, how people were just in tears. They couldn't believe it. I mean, I can't even imagine it. I honestly can't even imagine the feeling that was around the club, the feeling around City, the devastation, and how the club recovered, you know, as they did, and carried on playing, were expected to carry on playing, but they did, that's what happened.

42:43And rightly so, probably looking back. But there's no doubt that this tragedy, this devastating tragedy, you know, Even when I think about the first ever Manchester United supporters, the first ever official supporters club in the world was in Malta, 1958. So out of this plane crash, the Maltese supporters club was set up. A gentleman wrote a letter to Samat Busby and said, we hear of your tragedy and your devastation, and we'd like to officially set up a supporters club to support Manchester United, but also to commemorate and sort of be a community for what Manchester United is. And so Matt Busby replies and says, OK, we'll make you an official Manchester United supporters club.

43:31It's the first official supporters club in the world that's born out of the Munich Air disaster. And that goes to go over to Malta now for many, many years. And it's still a thriving Manchester United community that are proud of their history. But out of that, the club revives itself and rebuilds. But as a presence, an aura, a sort of a, everyone knows who Manchester United is from that moment on for the wrong reasons. But the club that is here today, the scale of the club that's here today, the size of the club, is born out of the Munich Air disaster. That is the absolute honesty and truth. Everybody knows that.

44:12And that journey over the next 10 years to win the European Cup, it's one of the great tragedies, but one of the great stories. I think there is a sense that it was recognised being a tragedy not just for Manchester, not just for Britain and Ireland, but somehow a global tragedy that touched everybody. So, I mean, I remember I went to speak to Dragoslav Shikulovac, who played for Sina Zvezda in the game, well, both the game in Old Trafford and the game in Belgrade. And he was haunted by the thought that he missed a chance with a couple of minutes to go. And if that had gone in, the scores would have been level and aggregate.

44:47and in his head there'd have been a replay so United wouldn't have been on that plane actually in practice they'd still had to go back and play the league game and I think they'd arranged to go and play in Lisbon the following week but it still nagged at him and in his flat in Belgrade and his flat overlooked the Majestic Hotel where they'd had the banquet that night so every day when he got up he saw the place where he'd had a few beers had a good chat with all that team in that flat he only had one piece of football memorabilia and that was the pennant from that game because it's still meant...

45:18And he was one of the greatest Serbian players in history. But the one thing he commemorates is he played in the Babes' last game, which I think tells you what an international tragedy it was. Yeah. I mean, absolutely. It touched everybody, I think, as you say. It was a local, national and global international tragedy. Everybody in the world understood what happened and how big this was. And you can never get away from it. and every year obviously you have the Munich clock, we've got the Munich tunnel, you have the Munich games every 10 years. One of the things that I remember, the picture that I, the kit that I always loved most actually is the one that we wore.

46:00I think it was the 60th year, was it when we wore the sort of, it wasn't branded the kit. It just had the, it was the old kit from 1958 without sponsors names on without any sort of suppliers' logo. I absolutely love that kit. I just think if you're a Manchester United fan around this time of year, obviously, I mean, yesterday was the game where the Munich disaster was commemorated again. It taps into you. It's actually became very difficult for Manchester United to win on these games. If you think of the one at Bolton we played on the 50th, and I think it was City on the 60th, I think it was in this game.

46:43And Manchester United have had some really bad results around these because the emotion that comes in, the weight of sort of feeling is such that the current players haven't come well when playing on the anniversary of this tragedy because of the feeling and the sort of the emotion that's inside you, which is never a good feeling when you're going into a football match because of the importance of it. The importance of it to a Manchester United player, the importance of it to the club and the fans. it's a difficult thing to contend with when you're actually trying to play and play sport as well but it's so important for everyone to continue to understand what happened and who these players were and what this story is about Do you think that will continue to happen?

47:26Obviously young players will be going to the service this week to commemorate it and there'll be players from all over the world teenagers, you know, playing now, playing for Manchester United and there's nothing against them they can't, you know, once you come to this club but you can't immediately be connected to it. You might only know the story hazely. So do you think going forward, this will at some point ever fade or does it always have to just be part of the identity? It will always be, it has to be part of the identity. There are certain things that you sort of, let's say there's guardians of the values of the club and the principles of the club and what the club is.

48:02At times, obviously the club may not always live up to those values and principles, but one thing that the club could never do is forget 1958, February 6th, that's something that will never happen. There is no owner, there are no group of fans, there are no group of players who can never not respect, pay tribute to what happened all those years ago. It's impossible to think that would never happen and it won't happen. It's too important in Manchester United's history. Thank you for listening to It Was What It Was and thank you to Gary and for coming on to discuss that. We are now embarking on a three-part series on the history of the Munich air disaster, discussing all its significance and how it built Manchester United and the modern game.

48:45So please join us to listen to that in a few days' time, and part one will be dropping.

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