Have Pep’s Tactic’s Expired & Slot’s Style Shift at Liverpool | Fan Debate Tactics Special

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1:19Because with every item purchased, another is donated. Bombas, comfort worth calling for. Go to bombas.com slash audio and use code audio for 20 % off your first purchase. That's B-O-M-B-A-S dot com and use code audio. Imagine the impact when everyone gets the right tool for the job. That's Odoo. Every app is designed to be easy to use, so employees spend less time learning the software and more time doing their jobs. Experience true speed, reduce data entry with smart AI, and a fast UI. Check out Odoo at odoo.com. That's odoo.com. My point about Tamarun was... That's a red card. And I reckon after 10 minutes, every time he tried, forget that, back to 4-4-2.

2:03You can control what's going on in that stadium, and that stadium will dictate what is going to happen in this game and how Liverpool are going to play. We could actually genuinely win the European Cup this year if our players come back. They laugh, but it could happen. You wait. I've heard it described as boring on the radio and stuff like that. It's not boring to me when we're top of the league. Insigning the name of Mourinho will upset a lot of Arsenal fans. I know what I'm doing. We might, yeah. I like asking you to tackle. No problem.

2:36Hello and welcome back to the Fan Debate brought to you by Skybet. I am joined on my right by Paul Scholes and all our loyal fans who come and do the show. And also this week we've got Harrison here from The Overlap. He does a tactics YouTube channel. Yeah, show. Show, breakdown? Breakdown, yeah. Come on, you're explaining it to me. Just a tactics show, so just basically keeping it along with every up-and-coming manager. Trends in the Premier League, players who are signing for different clubs. So, yeah, yeah, just started it this season and, yeah, it's going well, loving it. Brilliant, so we'll get into that and, you know, as he said, the tactical trends that we've seen in the Premier League this season.

3:13But to start the show, we're going to go with the quiz. And Jordan, you're up on the hockey, you're the man, to talk about your beloved Leicester. You spoke really passionate about them last week, didn't you? Yeah, I did, got a bit annoying, you know, you. OK, so you know the score. It's 90 seconds, there's 15 questions and we'll see how many you can get. As you can see, the Newcastle fan is top with 10. Right. Which kit sponsor did Leicester have on the middle of their shirts from 1987 to 2001? Walker's Christmas. Who were the only team to defeat Leicester at the King Power Stadium during their Premier League title winning campaign?

3:51Arsenal 5-2. Man O 'Neill managed which club prior to joining Leicester City? Norwich? Yes. Which player scored Leicester's first ever Champions League goal? Marco Brighton. Since the year 2006, non-British managers have managed Leicester City. Name at least four of them. Claudia Ranieri, Ruvan Estoroi, Svengård Eriksson.

4:16One more. Brendan Rodgers? No. You said non-British? Yes. Right, that's it. Which Leicester player scored a brace in the first league match at the King Power Stadium in 2003? Brian Dean Yes Which Leicester midfield player Played for Turkey in Euro 2000? Muzi is it Yuri Thielemann scored the winning goal To secure Leicester's first ever FA Cup Who passed in the ball? Ayosi Perez No Which team did Leicester sign Kante from? Ken? Yeah Who was Claudio Ranieri's record signer As Leicester boss? I've got Caninba No Jamie Vardy scored in 11 consecutive games In the Premier League Which team did he score his 11th goal against?

4:58United. The last league game, Philbert Street, in 2002, saw Leicester defeat Spurs 2-1. Who scored the goals? Matt Piper got one. James Scowcroft? No. Which team did Leicester City... I've started this all, finish. Which team did Leicester City squeak past, a strange word, squeak past in the 2000 Werthens' Cup final? Travmere Rovers. Yes. OK, so you got that. you scored nine I'll take that oh no relegation zone at the bottom that is looking a bit exactly Miss Modeska don't you stop Rory you better get VAR on your one try out a few you had an argument the club's having a sucker isn't it what were the ones I didn't get Enzo Moreska Moreska or I think he's forgettable I'm not saying it's fixed but they'd already left the gap

6:00Scolese, at the top of the show we spoke to Harrison we brought him on and speak to the supporters and yourself and speaking about the tactics in the game do you think we speak about that too much and also was that something that was a big part of the success for yourself at Manchester United and Sir Alex Ferguson well I spoke a lot about it a lot these days is it of course because people are analysing absolutely everything that's going on I think Pep was probably a big part of that as well with the stuff he started with the false nine as it was and then he started bringing full backs into midfield doing all types of different things playing centre midfield as a centre so I think yeah that was that made it become more popular I think and now especially with Amorim coming into the club he's got this certain way of playing I don't think he really cares about what type of players he's got or if they actually fit into that system but I think he's I don't know probably not talking about but he's almost backed himself into a corner as if I've talked about this system all the time I can't really change it now it's going to look bad the players aren't going to have that much belief in me if I all of a sudden change where I think he probably should change if his players aren't right for it when we were coming I don't think there was that many it wasn't that tactical I don't remember Jamie I don't know if it was different for you at Liverpool with different minds but I had the same it was more of a a way of playing of having belief in what you're doing not so much there's always tactical tweaks where you can maybe man mark one of their dangerous players or do something different that goes to three at the back which is something we never normally did we always seem to play the same way so it was more our mindset rather than actually tactical position I think the big change I actually when you describe Alex Ferguson would never be described as a tactician neither would Arsene Wenger but then Benitez and Mourinho would come into football and they were described as tacticians so I think 20 years ago when we were playing a tactician was someone who stopped the opposition it was almost a defensive thing and the attacking play was almost a bit well certainly when we played it was a feeling of I had managers like Gerard Hulli and Rafa Benitez who were good at stopping the opposition and nullifying their strengths and it was a case of get the ball to Stevie and Michael and they'll do something.

8:26Whereas I actually think the way the tactics have shifted now I actually think a lot of it is on the ball as much now. I think it's actually almost every team in the Premier League wants to be the team who's setting the tempo getting on the ball. It's very probably evident in some ways under Sean Dyche but like an outlier in the league maybe Nottingham Forest even though you've got great success it is a case of actually we're going to sit a little bit deep see how the game unfolds and I think that was probably the way a lot of teams played in the past you were obviously more offensive than the teams I played in at Liverpool but as I said was it a case of we go and play we've got great players yeah exactly I think that's gone almost not the maverick player but playing off the cuff a little bit players actually thinking for themselves I think players these young players especially these days do you want to know where they've got to be on the pitch every single minute so they're always asking coaches questions asking managers questions and it wasn't like that for us and I think you made a really good point there about Benitez and Mourinho people say that tactical masterclass when they go to somewhere a big club and they draw nil-nil to me that's the easiest thing to do because all they do is sit on the edge of the box everybody doesn't move out of the position it's so hard to play against you do it every day in training attack versus defence it's so difficult at times isn't it to score but yeah I think The hardest thing in the world is probably to a coach attacking play.

9:49You can't get in the mind of someone. Imagine Sir Alex Ferguson telling Cristiano Ronaldo to go and beat a man. When you get here, you do this, you do that. Everything has to be imagination and almost making stuff up as you go along and not just staying in your position all the time, which is what it's all become a little bit obsessed with. I'm sure you'll talk about Harrison, sixes, eights, tens. You've got to be a bit of everything, do you know what I mean? No, I'll try and keep the Sixers, Eight and the Ten. I think football's a cycle, but I think right now it's gone back to a bit of old. Watch City against Chelsea and lumping it up to the big man.

10:28Both the full-backs are running beyond. Forrest are one of the miracles of the season and all their counter-attacks are not choreographed. It's all off the cuff, like you say. Bournemouth are really good. One-twos all over the park. It's gone a bit backwards, I think. People always say that teams are playing like Pep. I don't think there's a team who are playing like City anymore in the Premier League. I think Chelsea maybe are trying to, but even Maresca adapted straight away at Chelsea. People like to say Spurs, they're well too fast-paced to compare them to a Guardiola team. Everyone's full throttle now and kind of gone back to everyone wants the space, everyone wants the in behind, everyone wants to get at teams.

11:06And you know, when you go, literally every team in the bottom half of the table, if you look at your Premier League fixture, you go, it's hard to go there, It's hard to score there. Everyone's played an Everton low block, a Newcastle press. You can't beat them. And it's like everyone, the obsession is about getting where you can hurt teams in behind. City have struggled this season because they play on the halfway line, 75 % of the game. And you can see goals on the break. And I think now teams have looked at it and gone, if we just sit in a little bit and the team comes on to us, then as soon as the ball's turned over, we've got 40 yards, 40 metres, whatever, of space to play in.

11:40And that's what it's all about now. and I think Ruben Amorim, people was like, his possession-based coach, watched us against Fulham. We're lumping it along every single time. We're trying to run him behind every single time. Spurs, everything, end-to-end, high throttle, Bournemouth, Newcastle, all the best teams in the Premier League have gone back to this kind of counter-attacking nature and making the football the fastest it's ever been. Alison, it's funny because we do the show Monday Night Football so I'm a little bit obsessed with how teams are doing things and slightly different and I love Amorim coming in just for me, you know it's a different system what you're doing with a player so I get really engrossed in that but I never believed there's a right or a wrong way to play football I just think it'd be good at what you do so but as you're talking about Everton on the edge of our box nightmares not you know Dyche we're hoping for a corner but you actually look at Everton's stats but you look at Nottingham Forest's stats in a lot of areas they're almost playing the same way but they're just doing it better they've got better players to play So it's not like, we've all got how we think the game should be played or how we like it, but there's no right or wrong way.

12:48So when you say teams are playing this way now, as if this is a shift as such, I think managers always have their idea. It's just being as good as they possibly can be. So Iriola is not all of a sudden doing that. He's been doing that because he was influenced by Bielsa. I'm convinced if you were a coach or I was a coach, a lot of my influence would come from the managers that I had. because I always remember something Jürgen Klopp said and I thought it was really good he couldn't coach Pep Guardiola football because he wasn't he wasn't educated by Johan Cruyff he was educated by his guy at Mainz it was all about a 4-4-2 pressing you know obsessed with Saki and I think a lot of football if you go back to coaches it almost feels like you're either Cruyff or Saki in some ways where your big thing is off the ball and pressing and winning the ball back or Cruyff where it's almost it's about being on the ball more and I think both of those ideas merge together you know Pep Guardiola's team are brilliant at winning the ball back Klopp's team are brilliant on the ball but we have to pigeonhole them in in some ways and a certain style in different ways but I don't think something Pep said I think last week didn't he about what you just said about you explain it Harrison so he's basically saying that the modern team the modern way to play now isn't a Manchester City brand of football and if you actually look at the way City play, they need pretty much the best player in every position on the ball at least to be able to play the way they want to do.

14:13We've all watched Southampton this season, we've all seen teams trying to play out from the back, losing the ball in the box and conceding multiple amount of goals for it. The way to play, he's saying, is your Bournemouth, your Brighton, your Newcastles and what they're doing is they're all recruiting physical, they're all going fast, direct, big lads across the park and it's long ball, it's long ball football and I think it's really interesting that Pep's saying that because in response to it, Iriola did a similar interview and he said that doing this thing where you've got to stand in one position as Scolesy was talking about and limiting and pigeonholing players in one position, it kind of kills off individual quality.

14:48You know, Moreska was from the Pep school. He looked at Cole Palmer and Cole Palmer's got a free role. He doesn't have a set position to stay in. And that is how you adapt to other personnel. You know, I get what you're saying and I read those both interviews, but that doesn't make me think Pep Guardiola's going to change and do what they're doing. No, I don't think he will. He's still going to do his thing. So the thing that these other managers do, and that's their thing, they're not, do you understand what I mean? It's about being as, the game sort of moves. Do you remember when Conte came in?

15:18Yeah. Everyone started playing three at the back, didn't they? Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Because they won the league, so I think, well, we'll have a go at that. So I think there is definitely an influence of teams who have been successful. You know, people will look at Nottingham Forest and think, how's he going about that? He hasn't got the best players, or they've got a certain way of going about it. So I think everyone's just trying to take little bits, aren't they, from everyone? But Rody, you had a question. Yeah, I was just, I was wondering, you know, obviously you've lived both lives now.

15:43You've been a player at the top level and now you're doing something like Monday Night Football, which is an appointment to view for everyone. Does the diligence that you had to put in to being a player, so the revision that you had to put in before, say, a big game coming up against Arjun Robin or someone like that, the work that you had to put in there, How does that compare now to doing it, but doing it as a pundit, like the revision and the work beforehand? It's a bit easier than going up against Robin. Yeah, I'd rather do that. I think I probably, I wouldn't say I watch more football now, but I'm watching it more analytical, you know, before Monday Night Football.

16:16Whereas if I'm coming against Robin or Drogba or whoever it would be, you'd probably have a 10 or 15 minute video that the club would put together. And then you go out and train and train every day. but I would say now I still think about the game as much as I did as a player as I do now probably because of that show you know what we put into it but I think the big thing of doing that show is very mindful of the fact of not always saying we used to do this or we used to do that because it is 20 years ago you forget it goes like that and you're thinking wow you know 20 years and things move on things change the game gets better it's more technical you know I always think the worst thing that happened was when we were watching our old games back in Covid and there's no football so Skype or the whole game you'd be watching games thinking oh my god we can't even sing six passes together you know what I mean it was just like and you're thinking it is a different game watching it now so I try and I don't know if you're the same Scholesy were yet when you're asked about football you look back at things and you take little things but also I think it's important to sort of see where the games go and now I'm not one of them who goes why is everyone playing round the back well if all these managers and all these players are doing it in the best league in the world I'm backing the fact that they half know what they're doing do you know what I mean I'm not going to be saying oh they should be lumping it forward so I think you've got to almost sort of respect and you know look at where the trends of the games are going yeah by your face you might have a different view no I wanted to play with a bit of freedom I watch football all the time I watch it when I was a player I watch any game that's on television and I don't really analyse it that much, I don't really go through it that much.

17:57I feel like now, there's almost a bit of life sucked out of footballers because it is all tactic-wise, and I'll always go back to Manchester United, Adam, and last couple of years, I've watched a warm-up funnily enough, and they're actually doing team shape in the warm-up. They've got the back five, they're in, they're out, there's a ball coming over them, they're heading it. They even started doing set pieces. in front of everyone defending set-piste come on it's a warm one you want to get your touch right you want to enjoy the ball get a kick of the ball just everything is just so into the tactical side of stuff my head would be fried I'm not sure I'll be able to play a game it's interesting you say that you know when you're watching a game of football for the first five minutes when I stick a game on I'm not really watching the game I'm trying to work out who's playing with in the first few minutes of the game I've always done that even when I was a player yeah you're going to get it quite sad no I'm not quite sad I've got to say that's quite easy to do and I don't it's not something what I take notice of when I'm watching I'm thinking right I'm trying to work out early on what a team are trying to do to the other team that's my first thing what's happened in this first 10 or 15 minutes I don't think about it like that I just say come on score a goal defend that it's how you play How you both played.

19:22Like you were sort of an artist who did it almost off the cuff and you were like a diligent, resolute defender. It's kind of the same way you approach it now watching it. Yeah, it's exactly the same. Probably for Jamie's job, he has to analyse it that way. It's something I'm just... It doesn't bore me towards trying to work out what a team's trying to do because sometimes you can see it, but it doesn't fascinate me. I want to see good bits of play. what I see I can forward smash it into a midfield player when I see a winger go past somebody so I'm not really looking for stuff like that when probably I should I always prefer Klopp's Liverpool to Pepcetre that's my idea of football like back to front fast direct wingers that's always the way I look at it I don't like I don't like possession for possession's sake I think everyone agrees that Pepcetre is probably the worst thing that has ever happened in Premier League so boring not really anything for me mate let me tell you that it's like Jack Grealish one of the best players to come at Aston Villa, who's one of the most exciting players in the league, and now he's just a cog in the machine.

20:25He's ruined the strikers. Yeah. He's literally killed. I think Pep Guardiola is the worst thing that's happened. The Italian striker grabbed him. Pep Guardiola is ruined. Oh, my God. He's beaten everyone 5-0 every week. I know. Premier League every year. I'd rather watch Forrest win a game with 30 % possession than watch a Pep. I went to watch Colton Town, this non-league team, the other week. and they're playing football from out the back and I'm thinking, I come to this pitch on a bobbly bit of grass to watch I lump it forward. That was funny when they played, was it Swindon in the cup? What?

20:58Swindon were playing City and trying to pass out. That can be used to it. You're playing up against one of the best teams in terms of pressing and passing the ball out and you're trying to match them. It's really bizarre. But I agree with them on the Jack Grealish point. Coaching Mavericks out again. Entertainment this year, though. but this has been the best Premier League I've remembered in years so much fun to watch apart from Spurs obviously fun for everybody but yeah but it is it's so entertaining I mean I had fun there's so many good teams yeah you don't realise the quality I think there's the quality of raise I'm not sure top teams come down a level you look at your Bournemouth your Brighton your Fulham some really good we're getting more goals aren't we I think the last couple of years the goals has been through the roof that we've never sort of had this amount of goals every season every season there's more goals per game that's been the role but what do you put that down to?

21:51I don't know honestly I just think I just think the league I mean you can you can shout me down if I'm wrong but do you think the league's just ten times more physical because I'm honestly I'm watching football games and it's actually petrifying someone was talking about Kai Havertz I'm watching Kai Havertz and he's sprinting up and down back and forth and he's playing like three games every seven days. I just think it's at a level now where the intensity is just ridiculous. I think it's hard to judge when you're not playing. I remember doing TV after I'd finished. I think it might have been Real Madrid, Liverpool and the Bernabeu.

22:27I was pitch side. Jesus, that's quick. Did they ever play in that? Was they able to play in that? I think our games would have been quicker, fast and furious. I'm sure they would. So, yeah, there is a lot more physical gone into it and there's a lot more sports science gone into it and players are probably a little bit fitter because they don't drink as much, I suppose. And they look after themselves probably a bit better than we probably did when we were playing.

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24:30Tara is a Mochi member compensated for her story. Imagine the impact when everyone gets the right tool for the job. That's Odoo. Every app is designed to be easy to use, so employees spend less time learning the software and more time doing their jobs. Experience true speed, reduce data entry with smart AI, and a fast UI. Check out Odoo at odoo.com. That's odoo.com.

25:03He was the most hated man in Wales. If I've got something to say, I'll say it. What's the worst injury you've all had? I broke my nose in New Zealand, broke my nose on Saturday and played on a Wednesday. Breaking your nose is the worst thing ever. I can't not play. I had 14 stitches down the front there. I said, I don't need anaesthetic to do it. And they're like legend. You're hard as, mate, hard as. Are we excited? Oh, yeah. Vicious rumour is we're recording a podcast called Stick to... Rugby. Stick to rugby, that's it, not football. Not football. I couldn't think of a better group of old men that I'd like to hang out with A brand new podcast that dives into the game we love like never before Stick to rugby We'll talk rugby but not the usual chat Mike Johnson, hard as ****, get it out of here We'll cover the big talking points but we'll share the great stories too I lost once in Scotland, it was the worst day of my life And then I appeared on the front page when he was the world the following week

26:00Look at Flats there, holding a ball He won man of the match once and didn't touch the ball. Big opinions. The number of people playing rugby is going down and down. And then when that needs to change. And some wicked guests. We need to widen the audience a bit. Who have you got on your Facebook? Jude Law, Ray Winston, Daniel Craig. Madonna. And that's a wrap. Wrap. This is the one rugby podcast you can't miss. Make sure you subscribe to Stick to Rugby. Brought to you by Defender. Gareth, can I ask you about the style shift with Klopp to slot? And there's been a little bit of talk probably in the first half of this season that at times maybe the atmosphere in Amphithe isn't what it was under Klopp.

26:42And is that down to the style of football? Yeah, I mean, it's definitely a little bit slower and a bit more deliberate and a bit more considered. But I think that makes all the sense in the world for me because one of the things that I think did for us previously was that we ran out of energy and we started to pick up injuries and players looked knackered basically trying to play the club football all the time. I think under Slott, he's obviously a big thinker. It's very deliberate what he does. But we said on the show last week that he's improved loads of players. And one thing I wonder about is, I mean, I like what Schultz said because I look at it in the same way and I want to see individuals express themselves I want to see that skill I love John Barnes I love Steve McManaman players that just run at you and there's no way you're coaching that for me that's just off the cuff you're not thinking about it you're just doing it it's not the part of the brain that you're engaging to have a big think it's just something that comes off the cuff because you're good at football I want to see that I want to see Mavericks and sometimes I think does it get overthought all this a little bit but if you look at Liverpool I'd say Diaz is probably the one who's most maverick, if you like.

27:53He's the most likely to go on a run, take on three players, do whatever. But he was doing that under Klopp, but in a frustrating manner. Like, he'd get into the box and he'd be knackered because he'd ran too far or whatever. And I just feel like Slott's tinkered with it and said, I'm not going to take away from that, but arrive in this place. And obviously, he's playing through the middle and stuff like that now. So it's quite clever what he's done. It's not boring for me. And I think, you know, we've talked about atmosphere before on here. I think it depends what the game is. There's almost an algorithm for atmosphere for me.

28:25It depends what the game is, when it is, what's at stake, how it goes. If you're 3-0 up, like we were against Ipswich, then everyone's not going to be bouncing. It's done, isn't it? Do you know what I mean? Everyone knows it's done and you're basically watching it, counting down to when you can go to pub. Sorry, I was just going to say, this is probably why I don't analyse football like you do. Because when I watch Liverpool now, I don't see a lot of difference. from the way Jurgen Klopp played. What is it? They definitely slow it down, I think. I mean, you know, against Ipswich, it was almost walking pace at times.

29:01And I think that's deliberate. So, you know, we talked about Poster Coglu on the other show and about how all these injuries that have racked up. Slott, one of the things about Slott in his previous job was that there was a good record for not getting injuries, basically. And I think that's one of the reasons he's come in. he's taking care of the players he's managing the needs you can understand that against it which can't you when you leave games and it's probably a little bit easier but I still think they'll revert not revert because I don't think they've gone away from it much but Klopp say you've got a big European game at home I still think that's going to be 100 miles and a half for the first half I don't think they're going to much do because the players aren't that much different you're interested you said that scores because when we were analysing that on Monday night there was a game Liverpool played in about October, November they played Brighton at home they were getting beat one at a half time now we looked Liverpool scored two goals within I mean including like before you kick off as well I think it was about 90 seconds you know so it was basically about probably 40 seconds a minute in actual gameplay and I said on it as soon as Liverpool scored we kept the whole thing on it I was like the crowd are going nuts no matter what your message is as a Liverpool manager and I'm sure this happens at other stadiums you can't control what's going on in that stadium and that stadium will dictate what is going to happen in this game and how Liverpool are going to play.

30:22There's no way when Liverpool go 1-1, the support in that stadium would accept Liverpool taking the extra pass. It's Anfield, it's 1-1. And you said the game state is, we've got to go for it. And you're right, in European games, if Liverpool get into the quarterfinals, semifinals, the first half might be a bit like slot and how they want to play. But if that game's not going how we want it to go, that crowd just pick that game up and say, this is what we're doing. That's how we're going about it. So there is still an element to that. but I agree with you I don't think the whole reason they brought him in was because it wasn't a big shift but it was just a slight thing even messages he gives doesn't he he wants him to play the extra pass rather than permanently going sort of long and looking him behind Yeah you can tell Lacan they're almost they're creating chances he's always referencing XG and stuff like that isn't he Slot they're creating chances and they're almost waiting for the better chance rather than taking any chance aren't they there's not too many pot shots I don't think under Slot it's keep working and they keep moving it.

31:17And then when you see the opportunity, then you go, then you take that chance, you play that ball, you're off that shot. But he's got them thinking about that. But, you know, I've heard it described as boring on the radio and stuff like that. It's not boring to me when we're top of the league, you know, top of the Champions League, league in the semi, the League Cup, still in the FA Cup, etc. What's boring about any of that? Shots fired at Jason. James, I want to come to you because I said something on the style of Arsenal at the start of the season, something I've been thinking about probably for about six months now.

31:49Talking of boring, we're going to work. I mean, do you think it was fair? And it wasn't a criticism. I think it was taken as a criticism, but almost that, I felt like Arteta, when he initially came in, this team's morphed into a more physical, direct team. I said Jose Mourinho. He's almost gone from trying to be a Pep Guardiola when he first came in to almost like winning the league a Jose way in some ways. Is that fair? Is that what the fan base believe? Is the team morphed in the last two or three years? I think it's, you know, inciting the name of Mourinho will have upset a lot of Arsenal fans.

32:24I know what I'm doing. We might, yeah. We prefer to say he's got elements of George Graham. Do you know what I mean? That's something. David Moyes. David Moyes, he was managed by him as well. Listen, I think that out of possession, I think Arsenal are probably the best. Like, they're so good structurally. But it's interesting hearing this conversation about that kind of maverick X-Factor thing. That's something Arsenal fans talk about missing in attack. You know, that Alexis Sanchez is often brought up as like a great example of that. A guy who was kind of system-proof. He did what he was going to do.

32:56It didn't really matter. And Arsenal fans are always saying, oh, we just need someone with that little bit of sort of magic. But I'm not sure if you took a player like that, you know, would it be a bit like the Grealish situation? Is that an Odegaard though? Odegaard? Yeah, he's got a lot of magic to his play. But, I don't know, in attack, in the front three, I think there's a feeling that Arsenal are sort of a very system-based. Like, you did a bit on Monday Night Football, Jamie, about the way they attack and the areas they attack. So much of the time, it's going down the flanks. And it can feel a little bit predictable.

33:30Do you think that... Obviously, we did that analysis. I only... You know, we don't know. We can only look at the numbers. But, I mean, do you think that is deliberately coming from our test? It must be when you see the numbers that stack. And I also think in the back of my mind, I'm convinced you're playing for corners. Yeah, well, they go down the outside a lot, don't they? And in a sense, why not? I mean, I think Arteta, that's why he is a bit like Mourinho in that he'll look at every single area and be like, how can I squeeze an extra few percent? And they've really done that with the set pieces.

34:01I just think it's interesting. You look at a player like Martinelli, I remember him coming into the team, kind of 17, 18 years old, and he was all over the place. for good and bad, but he had this real individual expression in the way that he carried the ball, he dribbled with it. And now he's become a player where you can almost see the manager's instructions in the way he moves, the lines he runs. And I just think there's a balance to be struck there. You can't argue with what Arsenal have done. Their results are great and they score loads of goals. But as someone who's maybe brought up on the Arsene Wenger approach, which was so much about the artistry, the individual expression.

34:40I have to be honest and say I do sometimes miss that. Do you think, like, Scolese brought up Adegaard, I'm a big fan of his. I think he's a really good player, I think highly of him. But there's been a lot of times where he gets into positions and often turns back and you hear fans kind of moaning and clipping it up. Do you think that is him and maybe the fear of losing the ball sometimes? Or do you think that comes from the coach and the tactics? I think, well, I think, to be honest, he's having a tricky season. I think his form has been down. He obviously missed a couple of months with the injury.

35:09I think he's got one goal from open play, something like that this season. Sorry, just one sec. Imagine him with a centre forward, though. With a proper centre forward. Odegaard's a brilliant player. He can put a ball any way you want. He hasn't got that. A number 10 needs that in front of him. I don't think Havertz is that type of player. He might make the odd run here in there. But you're thinking like, Isak or Durand, a lad from Ville. if he had that in front of him, it makes him become a better player as well because he's more involved with goals. That's fair, because Havertz a lot of times coming back and combining with Odegaard, they're trying to do that thing of getting Saka and Martinelli in behind.

35:47They haven't really got that central player. City did it, right? City won the league without one. But they were absolutely exceptional in every other position at that time. I don't think Arsenal are quite at that level. Do you think Arteta wants an archetypal number nine, though? I think he's happy with that false nine. That's why he brought Jesus in, why he bought Kai Havertz. I think what it is, is... Isn't that many around? No. It is, isn't he? Tony was available, wasn't he? He was available there if they wanted him. Is Tony going to win you the league? No. If he offered Arteta Isaac, he'd take him, you know.

36:17I think he is thinking of the other elements almost before he's thinking of the goals. You know what I mean? I think he's thinking, I need someone who can link the play, who can lead the press, you know, who can combine, who can move into wide areas. If they score 30 goals, great. But I don't think that's been top of his... Didn't he buy Havertz for a deeper role? Yeah, originally. I think they hoped that he would play a midfield role and push on. I didn't really ever see that working myself. I think Havertz is actually a better off-the-ball player than on him. So he didn't really work in midfield.

36:47Isn't that depressing, though, that he's thinking about all the other bits rather than someone who's going to get the goals? That'll win you those against Everton at home. Scoring goals is not an issue for him, is it? No, no, but it is without Saka. It's the games, though, Flav. Injuries. Big moment goals. it's their fault like Ang they've played Saka so much and there'll be times where you think you can take him off now you're 3-0 up or it's a cup game you just keep playing him look at them games where Arsenal are like 0-11 Fulham away batter Fulham away and then it's 1-1 and there's lots of them and there may be the games where a striker at Haaland maybe I don't know or Liverpool have had in the past they'll just get that goal win the game no when you look at the overall numbers Arsenal score tons and so on but they might win games 4 and 5 It's not them, is it?

37:32It's the 1-0-0, 1-1, whatever. And again, it's a hard thing to quantify. But when I'm chatting with my mates about Arsenal, we do sometimes say, when was the last time someone beat two men and stuck one in the top corner? It feels like the goals we score are very much the consequence of the patterns of play rather than the individual talent. But that's the problem with football at the moment. That's the way that it seems to be. That's what I say when I mention the score. I think the difference now is that the attack and play is so tactical. Whereas in the past, and this is what we're talking about, Are we almost creating robots?

38:02Every time the ball comes to a certain player, we already know what he's going to do before the ball comes. 20 years ago, virtually every team had an unpredictable maverick who would win their team games, either by creating something spectacular or by scoring one themselves. Tottenham had Ginola. There was Chelsea had Zola. There were countless throughout the league. That's why I love Parma. That's why Cole Parma was one of my favourite players. I almost feel like he is a little bit of a throwback. He's a 1970s throwback maverick footballer. And I watched the... You can't coach that guy. No, but I just love the way he moves.

38:32You can't coach it. I watched the... I was commentating on West Ham. Even though I'm commentating, I've got no... I don't really care who wins, but I'm just watching Paquette and thinking, oh, mate, every time he brought the ball down on his chest or on his shoulder, he was just like... He was a little bit like that, a bit of a throwback, where I was actually thinking, would Liverpool sign him? I know City did try and sign him, actually, to be honest, but I look at it as lack of athleticism in some ways and think, would that stop a top team, like an Arteta, to think, okay, what's he maybe doing off the ball?

39:00And I think of Liverpool, because I'm not Sir Bozlai's biggest fan, but he's got great athleticism, so he gets talked about as our number 10. And people say, oh, he's great at off the ball. I'm thinking, but he's the number 10. He scored three goals, and I know he does a great job for the team, but I was actually thinking, Slott would probably prefer Sir Bozlai than maybe a Paqueta. But nobody dreams when they're 11 years old of being a great system player, do they? No. Like, where are these players? Like, the creativity. It's culture. It wins your trophies. It wins your trophies, mate. You dream of winning trophies isn't a dream of what you do.

39:33You know what I mean? You might dream of scoring a goal. No, but when I was a kid, I'd try and hit the crossbar and it'd bounce in and I'd think I was Tony Yeboah. Like, that was the dream. Like, now, where are those players? That's gone at every level of action. No, but it's fine. Because when Dyches was there, he was asked about playing in GI as a number 10. Yeah. And he said, yeah, but it's about defending. I'm like, it isn't about defending me because he's an attacker. It's about putting someone in there and getting the goal. Glenn Hoddle always said when he went abroad to Monaco, he said, everything in the team is geared towards the number 10 being free.

40:06Just everything. Blake Ash, can you tackle all the time? Blake Ash, can you tackle? No problem. But everything else, the other way was incredible. That way, not so much. Did LA Tigers ever go, can you... Every game, before every game I walked out. Don't smash it. He said, watch your tackles every time I walked out.

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42:05I wanted to ask you about Everton because I grew up watching the best Everton. And it was a style of football. And I don't think Everton have ever really come a million miles away from that. Maybe under Roberto Martinez. Yeah. A little bit. And when I speak about Everton on the TV, I always speak about, I still have that ingrained in me, crosses number nine. Has the game moved on from that where Everton supporters should actually be looking for a different style of football or a little bit that's across the board of Premier League rather than an Everton style as such? Yeah, I'll be honest. I don't think we're wedded to one style.

42:43I mean, I hated Martinez's football in the end because it was too obsessed with knocking the ball around we ain't going anywhere with it and I think your hybrid is what it's about isn't it goals we love crosses as good as we do of course we do but I also like good build up playing going through them we scored a goal against Spurs like we knew we were there probably celebrating like me but there was a lovely little ball from Garn and Jai goes off a little step over and it's in the net and everyone's loving that but you said before I think you're right there isn't one perfect well there shouldn't be one perfect way of playing you know United we're under Ferguson shouldn't be 4-4-2 sorry but I was just going to say do you think clubs themselves have certain philosophies rather than the managers because I think a Man United like that get the ball forward get the ball wide get the ball in the box and it just the system can change within that though right we're United we want to see wide players we want to see attacking football but the system can still accommodate that it's like some clubs they suit like playing three at the back so it's just some teams some pitches do Man United have never ever I remember Sir Alex the odd time we thought for some reason we'll go to a back three and I reckon after ten minutes and every time he tried forget that back to 4-4-2 it was interesting it just doesn't feel right at the ground I don't know if you agree but there was times the other day where we slipped into a back four where the low would kind of do you know what I think that happens you can do that in any system can't you any system sometimes can look like 4-4-2 it can look like anything it just when I see the three at the back come out not having wingers not having wingers not having your wingers who will run up and down the four backs at wing back for United that's gone once you get in the final third that's gone clueless because it's we're watching Dallow go down the left hand side and he's right footed and everything's back inside and we're playing our two most dangerous wingers inside the pitch and it's like he just seems Ahmad's better at right wing back yeah exactly he gives us a bit of an attack no see Ahmad in a big game if you're playing right wing back against your Real Madrid your Liverpool who's the best teams no chance the reason I think that though because with the two going forward absolutely brilliant don't get me wrong because he gets those opportunities when we go forward whereas I think when he plays in the inside position up top he doesn't really have an overlap really with him he doesn't have anyone taking players away from him and he does from that wing back position it's weird the club thing though isn't it because all the managers you change it's like I think if I speaking to someone who's quite close with Everton's recruitment a while ago and they were saying well about working hard and I was like not a play for Everton isn't just about working I should be doing that anyway and every club every club wants to score goals don't they I think scores and that's why I speak about Everton like that and even when I think of Chelsea sometimes I think almost a bit powerful and direct maybe I've got that Merino thing in Drogba but when Graham Potter for instance was linked with your club my missus thought is he's not an Everton manager I can't see Derek Goodison his type of I can't can't envisage him doing an interview after a game do you know what I mean and I'm a little bit like that with Amaran not so much with Amaran my point about Amaran was oh fuck it's Amaran that's twice that's bubble bubble that's Amaran twice yeah look at this do not disturb what's going on what would happen in a dressing room if something like that happened in front of the game five weeks wages a week we break the TV in our dressing room we're talking

46:31about club philosophers and look the amount of times United have had to change managers and the first thing they say they start talking about the philosophy when they come the new manager comes in you don't need one we've got one we've got our philosophy you're coming to do that yeah that's probably why it's been so bad for United if you look at all the squads after each manager's come in it doesn't suit the last one after Moyes you've got Van Gaal after Van Gaal you've got Mourinho after Mourinho you've got Solskjaer Ten Hag none of them he tried everything yeah none of them after a month I think a couple of months Ten Hag went I can't play my football it was like it was the second game we played Brentford away and if you actually look at the second window of the majority of the managers they get all the all their players in so Tenard got you you know your Anthony your Martinez your Ajax players and all that and then the second season kind of just dwindles out new manager comes in and then he don't want them players they did that he got two more Ajax players then he got Deleuze that's why Lopetegui was never going to work at West Ham if you think about the way that their fans want to see the football they genuinely believe they won the World Cup and then they suddenly got like you know really defensive stuff it's never going to work Adam have you got a question sorry my question was kind of answered earlier But, you know, between 99 and 08, I know you kind of suggest, like, tactically there weren't too much information.

47:50It wasn't an information overload. But what did Fergie change mainly between? I know we kind of went to a 4-3-3 in 08, but was the message still the same? Was it just different formations? No, yeah, there were slightly different formations. But, no, the message was always the same. You express yourself, really. you get to the ball you pass the ball forward you run forward you get goals obviously you don't want to be conceding all the time a big thing we changed from 99 to 08 in European games we went to we say 4-3-3 it was more like a 4-5-1 really especially in games away from home we'd gone to Barcelona we'd gone to a lot of games and we just tried to because we knew with that 4-4-2 we were playing it was brilliant it was exciting and you were scoring three goals, you were letting three goals in.

48:43But it just couldn't carry on that because we wasn't being successful in Europe. There was obviously something wrong. So we started getting results and we probably went quite boring, to be honest, especially in the away games. You're packing the midfield, people like Jono Shea, Darren Fletcher. So we'd moved Rooney out to the wide areas. We'd moved Rooney out to the left and side. Yeah, we played with one centre forward. Some of our games must have been horrific to watch if you look back, do some nil-nils, one nils. but that was the way we had to adjust to try and compete with them teams. You're still at home, especially when you played the 4-5-1 at home, you're still going for it.

49:21You're still passing the ball forward, you're still running forward but you made sure you were in your shape and compact. These teams, they can batter you in midfield because they're technically so good.

49:37I've got a question. You know, right at the end of a game, you've both been on the pitch, high pressure. So I was at PSG with City. We're losing 3-2. Goal difference doesn't come into it. We either get a point, we don't get a point. There's like 30 seconds left, and we conceded anyway, but we've got a corner. Why is the keeper not going up? And it ties into my other point. We've got a minute added on just for half-time. There's 45, 50 seconds into that minute, and we're still just knocking it round the back. The players know there's a minute left. They know there's 10 seconds left because it's been announced.

50:07why aren't they just playing a bit more direct pinging it up because the amount of time I thought it was just City and I've seen I think Fulham yesterday I've seen it so many times you've got negative seconds the ref could blow any second and they're just plodding around at the back why don't they just ping it forward I know that's not the philosophy but when it comes down to 30 seconds that used to happen years ago I used to watch Oldham Joel Royal as manager honestly to God he's getting beat 10 minutes ago he's 5 centre forwards why don't they do even with City the way we play you've got 10 seconds it's literally like if you don't kick it forward now and I've seen you know it's like we're not allowed to do that we've got to carry on playing the same way the one I can't challenge any I don't know anything about tactics being realistic right I couldn't challenge any manager in the Premier League but that's the one thing I could say the ref has got his whistle just ping it shoot I don't care where just shoot anything like that even if even if shoot you know what though if you ping it forward and they keep a catch that's that the other one when you're leading yeah and watching Colby mine who's your central midfield player he's left wing for the last five minutes fucking get back stay there we did it against trying to hold on to a win what are you doing we did it against Brentford we obviously drew the game 2-2 we're 2-1 up and I'm thinking just get it in the corner just get it in the corner and we're pinging it around and somebody has a shot and it goes out for you and you're giving the ball away it's the same it works you're just moaning about not having a shot a minute though if you're winning just keep the ball I mean keep the ball for 30 seconds we're usually very good That's why we've lost a bit.

51:36Because they know the managers are going to have video meetings. No, but Cal's can't get forward. What were you doing here? Cal Van Bassey yesterday. It's like the referee's like that. Fulham have loaded the box and he's doing drag backs. I mean, he's not very good anyway. And then he ends up just smashing it out. Did you see where someone went down holding their leg and the referee stopped the game while we were on the attack? You're going to get me started about refereeing. Flav, I want to get to you because, again, when I go back to being as a kid growing up, you think of the teams who were almost spoken about, about their style.

52:07Probably Tottenham was the one that always sticks in my head and always has done about you have to play a certain style at Tottenham. Is that why Ange Postacoglu is probably still in a job where there's people like Conte and Jose and Nuno before him who were basically relieved of their duties probably a lot earlier because of the style? Yeah, there's lots of reasons why he's in a job because most managers wouldn't survive this, the form that he's managed to achieve in the last three or four months. But his style of play is in line with the kind of great quotes that came from Blanche Flower and Bill Nick and the way Tottenham used to play.

52:45And so he is much more in keeping. He is much more fitting as a Tottenham manager. And so he's been given probably more rope than most managers would. And when we've been excellent, we've been phenomenal, Going to the Etihad, I know Man City are not the same team this year, but what we did to them, I've never seen a put-away performance from a Spurs side like that. And I think it's those sort of wins against United at Old Trafford as well that you think, that's what we're capable of. That's what Ange Bui is. And if we can see that on a more regular basis, what might our future hold? But it's been fleeting and, you know, you've been...

53:25You know, when you go back to those quotes, obviously legendary figures in Tottenham, but it's ironic though isn't it the game's about glory yeah but what I'm saying is that style of playing that sort of idea of what you want to do I think most people outside of that would also they're soft touch now I don't want to get into that spares-y stuff and all that but it's been so long now since you've sort of you know so those quotes from those people have you got to move away from that maybe a little bit as a I mean we did with Conte we did with Mourinho and it was it was miserable like it's miserable now don't get me wrong this is probably the worst I've seen Spurs probably in my life honestly but bad under our dealers there's a bit yeah but they're actually similar style bad under gross bad under gross but mitigating circumstances now are different from what they were now which means that you can kind of explain it away and we'll see how we end the season we could actually genuinely win a European Cup this year if our players come back they laugh but it could it could happen you wait and And so we tried to deviate.

54:33We had a massive shift in Conte and Mourinho, and it was horrible, really. The football was boring. It was perhaps more effective than Postacoglu. But if we can win playing that way, it's much more preferable. And I think what's actually happened at the football club is if Postacoglu doesn't work, we're going to bring in another manager who's attack-minded because, like lots of other football clubs, they're trying to create a philosophy again. and if it isn't Postacoglu then it may be Iriola or it may be you know Marco Silva but the reality is none of it changes with Daniel Levy at the football club as I keep saying doesn't matter Greg I want to ask you I'm going to go back to sort of teams when I was younger even the great Nottingham Forest teams you were known as a counter-attacking team even under you know Brian Clough all those years ago you've got that going on right now is and it's probably a little bit of an outlier in the league a little bit similar to what we said Everton way earlier on.

55:29Is it just you're enjoying the ride, it's all about the results and the style doesn't really come into it? It's exciting. We know when we've got the ball, something's going to happen. Like I said, 30 % possession. I think we were the first team to win with under 30 % in years. But like I say, we've got the ball, we're down the wings, we've got good crosses in, we're so much better at set pieces now. I mean, we bought James Ward-Prowse in and he can't get in because we play that well. but you talk about the old days and Brian Clough famously said something like, if football's supposed to be played in the sky, he'd have put grass in there.

56:01So we always have had a philosophy and I think we stick with that and we're doing it very, very well at the minute and it could continue. It's never about the player who's on the pitch. We get injuries, we get subs, it's still the same the way we're playing. It's interesting, isn't it, though, when you think of Nuno, it's been brilliant for you, brilliant for Wolves, but it didn't work at Tottenham. and you might say, oh, damn, you'll leave it. But it didn't feel the right fit, did it? Never the right fit. It was never... I said after two or three games, I think you were actually top of the league.

56:29Maybe four or five games. The first three games. We beat City, yeah. But it just didn't feel right. With Nuno, it was like we were waiting for it to end as soon as it happened. It didn't feel right. And the expectations, perhaps unfairly, are different at Tottenham than they are at Forest. It's funny, though, because you spoke earlier about, I think, currently you've got a 50 % win or lose rate, haven't you? and that's what it was with Nuno when you sacked him. What are you saying? I'm saying it's maybe a bit hypocritical that we're still so... Well, you're lucky we did sack him. What do you reckon?

57:01Poster Coglu would be sacked if you weren't 1-0 up against Liverpool. I mean, you're not going through that. Would Poster Coglu be sacked if Liverpool... If you weren't 1-0 up in the semi? No, not really, because the messaging from the club... In my opinion, probably, but from the messaging from the club is that they're backing him. They think the injury crisis is a bit of a freak situation and it will all be fine, whether that's true or not is another thing. Would you take 17th if you won a cup, though? Aren't we talking about Forrest? Literally said two words and now it's all about Spurs again.

57:30It's more enjoyable. What was the question? Would you take 17th? So you're just about to stay up where you win a cup, Europa League. 15th now? Yeah. Of course they win. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I would take just the in relegation of the Europa League. Would you take another start? You'd have to. you haven't won a cup in you'd take a Wigan season I mean I was four last time you won a cup Adam he was just a rubber I'm just going to ask Adam a question might sound a stupid question would you rather watch us play or Tottenham

58:06as like a fan of the club would I rather be a Spurs fan forget about a fan just watch a game of football as a neutral watching a game of football he's got you there hasn't he it's a good question to be fair Spurs games have always it's very difficult to watch us play football these days but when it works it works really well for us when? when we beat City and stuff I'd rather watch us play yeah but that wasn't good football was it? some of it was I think the last five minutes was brilliant we kept possession really well and you know we looked like a proper team in some parts of that game but yeah Spurs games Spurs are probably the most entertaining team in the league yeah I'd say that for good and bad reasons good and bad reasons I think that's been the way for a long time we're going to wrap it up Addison you want the last shout on anything tactically where you think we're going where the Premier League's heading what you think might be happening next season I think people are for us a proper apology honestly like which people in particular no honestly like if you actually look if you actually look at your squad it's like you were planning for Nuno it's ridiculous like Calum Hudson-Odoi was like 5 million 3 I think 3 that is Alanga like 15 million Our whole back four and goalkeeper is 50.

59:17Morgan Gibbs-White was like their record signing. I think they're still record signing. Elliot Anderson from Newcastle, and they were like the only two that they've gone out and spent a big money on. But if you buy 50 players, they're not 11. No, no, but I mean, the third. Kept us up. The third or second. So like, something's worked. And I think, yeah, you're looking at all the teams like, there could be six teams out of the last six promoted that are going straight back down. And everyone's trying to find a model to do something. The Forest have done it. and whether or not it's the right way or not they have done it so look at Greg's face I don't know it didn't come from it didn't come from the couch though that's what I want I just he's like why not shit and something will stick I didn't even mention the full point I definitely give you shit at the time as well but like it's worked throw enough shit and something will stick it didn't work at your height yeah but no yeah I just think it's I think it's probably the most level the Premier League have ever been in terms of the mid table I think if you actually look at like 5th to 10th like we aren't like Manchester United you can agree with me we are not like factually one of the best like one of the top 10 not even like we went into I think everyone would agree with that but we went into the Brighton game and people were talking about an upset Brighton have been better than us for two and a half seasons it's just like it's not an upset the upset was us beat the upset is the Fulham game like that's an upset for me so no I think I think all the mid-table teams of the recruitment now is just ridiculous even Leicester I've got a player that El Canoos is just like you're pinching players for like 10 million and they're brilliant I think it's really hard to compete with even if you've got so much money Right, well thanks everyone and that is the end of another edition of The Fan Debate brought to you by Skybet

1:01:00Hello and welcome back to The Fan Debate brought to you by Skybet alongside me Paul Scott Scotty Lillam.

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