Is Football Losing Its Way? Sean Dyche on Forest & The Biggest Modern Game Problems | Fan Debate

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2:43A lot of my players will believe the person in the stunt when they believe the manager. Their agent will ring and say, well, social media, so they're doing really well. You'd be like, really? Arsenal, I think, found a bit of a gap in the market in the last couple of years. Yeah, they crossed it and added it in. To be fair, you're missing a bit. Yeah, but that's the master part of it. It's harassing the goalkeeper and that's the clothes lining in. What's the most woke thing about football now? Where do you want me to start? We were going to get a place in the Europe, I think. Do you remember the...

3:09Fair play ball. Fair play. I went over there I said right go and start smashing people I said I never can

3:18hello and welcome back to the fan debate brought to you by Skybet I'm pleased to welcome back Sean Dye to the sofa as well as our loyal fans so how are we all enjoying the international break loving it so good United don't play its class yeah yeah good yeah what are we thinking about this sort of three week rather than two week I think it should be completely abolished, the international break. Do you understand why they've done it that way? Yeah, but it was worse when it was September, then two and then... It should be better than it was two September. We've got five weeks of international football, basically, rather than six weeks that we had for whatever it was, the last 15 years or so, so we don't mind it.

3:58I'm not fed out when I was working, I was getting three weekends away. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like a little break in the sun. Well, have you had a little break in the sun on this international break? No, not this one. I've got plenty of breaks in the subjects I've been working. Right, let's crack on. Sean, this is an episode we're going to be talking about you, the role of the manager. How has that changed since you first started when you were in your last job? Well, I think my very first job at Watford and Burnley and Everton, I suppose, the only Forest slightly changed was this idea you're a manager.

4:38you know, not a coach. You know, nowadays, the biggest, the biggest, it's not really a debate anymore. I think, I think people are aware now, fans are aware that certain clubs have a head coach and certain clubs have a manager. I've always been more the manager style of manager, if you like, or manager coach. I can coach, obviously, I've got my licenses, but I've always thought the coach is coach, you know, as I got longer in the tooth in management. And management now in old school money, if you like, is so dominated with the amount of workload and media and all that sort of stuff that it's harder, I think, to coach all the time.

5:11But then other clubs, obviously, have a head coach who really runs the team. You know, it still does the media, but don't really get involved in the running of the club. It's just purely the team. So, yeah, I think that's how it's developing. And different clubs have still got different styles. I think the future of it will be more like the new style, if you like. I think it'll become, talking future-wise, I think it's going to become very Americanised, personally. Not just because of the amount of American owners. I think you're going to have like a GM, as they call it, general manager, and then a coach.

5:39The GM will be like a manager, but kind of behind the scenes management. And then the coach will do the press and the teams and all that sort of stuff. A bit like a director of football, but a different version of that, I think. When you mention that, and I don't know everything about American sports, but when you think about set pieces, coaches coming in now, do you think you could almost get to a stage... I definitely want to throw in coach if I get another job. You've got to throw in coach. But you're almost like a coach for almost every area of the team. Yeah, I mean, Big Sam, to be fair, brought that over.

6:08You know, people forget that. You know, he took his first year of criticism, Big Sam, but he was one of the early adopters of all that. He was bringing all sorts of coaches into work with his team, especially the Bolton side, of course. So credit to him for that, for being way in front of the curve. I think the way it's going, I think, you know, I think it's gone over-precious with staff now. You know, there's not enough owners back on the ownership of players. You know, it's almost like, well, you didn't tell me this, you didn't tell me that. You know, I always used to have a laugh with some of the players where they say, what, you're in the image today, that line almost is left footed.

6:37It gets to that degree sometimes when you go, well, you didn't tell me this, you didn't tell me that. So I think there can be over analysis on football without the players then for self-learning. You know, I think self-development is still a massively powerful thing. And I think it's definitely something that should change in the younger age groups, in academies, because self-learning for me is almost obsolete now. It's almost like the coach tells you what to do, you do some homework on it, and now it's done. and they go off and play on their Xbox or whatever it is. I think there should be more self-learning and that will create more of a learning environment when they get older as first-team players.

7:11You're talking about kids playing football on the streets, playing their own games. The version of that, yeah. I mean, not quite that, but the facility is now incredible in these academies. I know I'm reverse engineering this from the top level. My point is if you're developing these products as little kids, so little Johnny goes into the school door, seven years old goes into the academy right they go through the academy system they come out and by the time they come out of 18 they've got every single thing you can think of you know analysis feedback sheets you know documentation everything and it's like a job before it's a job and then the first team manager comes along and if you haven't got all them coaches in place they're like well we had them when we were seven imagine a set piece coach at seven really you get my point don't you So I think I think we've got to unravel it a little bit for me So that the end product at the top of the market comes out a little bit more self-ownership a little bit more self-awareness A little bit for football game savvy.

8:06Do you know what I mean? So I think I think we've gone too far the other way and part that is going back to your point You are staff just with people everywhere I mean, you know, sometimes kind of I remember Munn City the first time they turned up a Burnley You can imagine a Burnley little corridor in the changing room and it was like that a support vehicle they had two buses and I was like what's that all about? you know you've got a squad of 20 players and you've got 32 staff and I thought I don't even know where they live I could physically get them in the stadium so yeah so that's been of interest in my journey through management going back to your original question management compared to coaching I think it's a change and then adding in the layers of staff now I think it's a borderline overkill for me now I want to bring the fans in and I want to ask you if you want to volunteer sort of an opinion if there was one key thing you would want to see from your manager at your club what would it be?

9:01Three points says the Tottenham Fund Gareth I'll ask you we you know hold great store in our managers at Liverpool it feels like almost like a privileged position for anybody at any club but it feels like we look to our managers a lot What is the one thing when Liverpool appoint a manager that you think, it has to be that or I want that? I guess I want him to care. I want him to feel like he does genuinely care about our club and that he's not just sort of here on a journey picking up a wage and getting to go somewhere else type of thing. I mean, you know, I'll always probably, because of my age and where I'm at and what I've seen, I probably will always go to Klopp and say he's the one who's most got it in my lifetime.

9:52And it almost felt like, I think you're right, like it wasn't just a manager. It's almost like he was president of Liverpool Football Club, do you know what I mean? And like he stood for us and he said the right things and he went in for battles and he jeered us up for European nights and all of that kind of stuff. It's that. You know, of course you want him to coach the side. of course you want three points of course you want them to lift trophies but you want them to sort of almost recognize our role in it all as well and i think i think clop did he'd often talk about we need the crowd behind us obviously very early on he made that point about people getting off early and that's something we talk about all the time why do all these people get off early you know what do you mean beat the traffic like stay and watch your team and support your team and for the manager to say something like that was brilliant because it was like, you get to.

10:39I think with Posta Coglu at Spurs, the stuff that he was coming out with, it felt like we had a manager that was back in the club and kind of back in the fans as well. It was like, I know it didn't go incredibly well in the last season for him, but he won a European trophy, finished fifth. But the way he, it always felt like he, regardless of the situation, regardless of what was happening, he was defending Spurs and I really enjoyed that about his management. I think protecting the players. I think one criticism I have of Arteta is there are a couple of individuals, one in particular in Saka, that I think plays a bit too much football and you can see that fatigue creeping up on him.

11:17I think he's been slightly overplayed and I think it's really important the manager protects their players on the pitch as well as off of it as well, having that accountability if it doesn't go your way on the day. I can't remember off the top of my head, but there are certain managers that have come out and put a little bit of pressure publicly on the players and that really grinds my gears. I think the manager should always take responsibility. Okay. Questions to Sean? Is that right? Well, I was going to early with the first question. Sorry. Go, Flav. Shut up, Flav. As a manager, is one of the most frustrating things to deal with the unrealistic expectations of supporters?

11:55It's one of the hardest things. I just want to pick up on that point. It's how my generation of football fans are changing, the youngsters. He's now talking about managers protecting the players. I've never had that in my life. When I was a player, go get out there and play. So 10 years ago, many fans would be saying, what do you mean, protect the players? They should be playing all the time. They should be playing more games. They should be training even harder. Do you get the move? So it's quite interesting that generation, this new generation of fan, they've got a different viewpoint. Do you get the move?

12:19And then they'll go, why are they playing too many games? Do you get the move? I'd never had that when you were a little boy. Go and get out there and go and win it for them. Don't say that again. I mean, no. No, no, you get my point. I've explained a generational shift. That's a generational shift for me. Maybe because modern fans have got so much information, the depth of their knowledge is like saying things like that. Whereas fans of the past just go, get out there and win a trophy for us. Do you know what I mean? It's like the England players now, isn't a couple of England players' mood, load management?

12:47We're all going, yeah, you've got to look after the players. I mean, as I said, probably 15 years ago, imagine turning up to an England person saying, I'm not in it because of load management. For me, the welfare is more here now. Whether it's brought on by themselves as players through social media or not, or whether it's one by just being a Premier League footballer and an international footballer, or particularly international footballers, with that on top, I think it's this part that the well-being is. It's not this part. They've never been fitter. They've never had more support. They've never had better diets.

13:12The modern generation are no drinkers or anything like that. It's here. That's the biggest thing they need support with now. Not necessarily by psychology. It just means a rest here. Get away from it. Go and have a break from that, in my opinion. Anyway, sorry. Go on, back to your point. Sorry. No, I was just asking how difficult is it for... I mean, is one of the most frustrating. Yeah, I mean, the expectation, I've always believed this. Whenever I got a job, I said, tell me the job that you want me to manage, but don't keep shifting the goalposts. That's the hardest thing. Yeah, even if it's in Everton, it was like, we have to stay in the Premier League and you're going to have no money.

13:45At least I knew it. Now, I couldn't go out and say that to the fans because they'd have gone mad. But that was the truth of it. They said, look, we're not going to have any money. You're going to have to sell players and we've got to stay in the division. That was it, you know, in its rawest form. But if you get a win, at least internally, I knew that was my job. That's what I had to manage. Like, Forrest was different. Stabilise the club. So externally, you're getting a stick, but I know internally I'm stabilising the club. So it's a weird one. That's where it goes a bit wrong. At least after they stood by me and saw me try and do it, at Forrest, it doesn't last very long because the expectation, back to your point, the expectation changed so rapidly at Forrest.

14:20You know, we beat Liverpool away, we beat Tottenham, and it's like, why am I in the top six? And you've got to be miles off the top six. Do you get what I mean? So, and that is becoming a problem for management now. it's not the expectation the expectation is different if you've just won the league at Arsenal on this season there's an expectation to go and win it again that's sort of a semi-fair expectation but when you're in a club that's got no chance they go why aren't you playing like this and why aren't you doing that and why aren't you doing this and why aren't you doing that you go what's that all about it's almost undeliverable so I'm always intrigued when I see managers in interviews when they get to a club and they say we're going to do this this and this and I'm thinking I'll be careful with that because to deliver what you've just said is going to be very very difficult Do you know what I mean?

14:59So finding the truth line, I call it the truth line, finding the truth line in the story and trying to just be positive about where the truth is with fans and tell them, look, this is my view. This is what I've taken over. This is what I hope to do. I try to do that. It doesn't always resonate well with fans. Oh, why are you being positive and all that? I go, well, because it's better than giving you a load of bullshit, basically. I prefer to be truthful on the way in and still stick to the story and the way out, good or bad news. Do you get what I mean? Whereas some men's going and they promise these, you know, selling chocolate teapots and I think you ain't going to deliver that and sure enough they don't and then I think well I don't know what you're expecting in the first place because that's an undeliverable situation but it buys you a short-term fix the fans go yeah you know I've got this brilliant new manager and he said we're going to win the league and you know you're not Do not make a choice.

15:52Ellie, before Flav really interrupted me, coming to you to ask a question. Obviously, big Forrest fan, Sean, his last job was at Nottingham Forrest. You've got a few questions. I do. So I kind of related to that and everything we're talking about. When you first joined the club, obviously you started really, really well and your job was stabilising, which I always say you did. No, you did. I know people sent me your quotes on what you said. Well, they sent me the people who weren't. Yeah, I got accused of being paid for that as well, by the way, but that's another story. But I genuinely do believe...

16:28What, you didn't get the cheque? No. But I do believe you came in and did exactly what you were supposed to do and the results proved that. But towards the end, there was a negativity surrounding the club, surrounding the fans, surrounding the football, if we're honest. Was there truth in the rumours that the dressing room was gone? I mean, we're talking about protecting the players. Was there any truth in that? No, you hear it all the time. At the end of the day, you can't, if the dressing room's gone, which is a silly phrase anyway in football, I think. But although, to be fair, I've witnessed it myself when I've thought and not my teams necessarily.

17:03But you can't, my last game, you can't have 35 efforts a goal if your dressing room's gone. You know what I mean? You can't do that. You know, the hardest bit, Jamie knows this, the hardest bit in the world as a manager, the frustration bit is go on and stick it in the net. That's the bit you can't do. They have to do that. But it's a nominally, I think, like I said, I think the stat was there's only twice in the Premier League it's ever happened with that many efforts at goal and someone didn't win, because we drew, obviously. And then to lose your job over that, that's frustrating when people are making up all these rumours.

17:30But that is football now. That's football management, sorry. You've got to handle the fact that there's going to be loads of school degree, shit sticks, shit sells. It's just the way it is. it's the nature of humans you know that's the way it is why do you think we all read the you know no one reads the nice stories apart from when you save a cut or something you know what I mean everything else is like cool that's got an edge to it that's why clickbait works do you know what I mean we're all guilty of it but clickbait works because it's never clickbait you never see a good story it's always something with an edge to it you know what I mean so what I'm saying is that part of what you've got to handle now as a manager you've got to handle the haters the haters game very quickly I mean I sit in the stadium and it's weird I must tell you this well I'll tell you the truth of our football's got.

18:06So when I was out at work, I'd get invited to some clubs to go and watch games. So I'm sitting there and I get into direct this guy and I, it's been rubbish today. And honestly, once I leant over and looked at the T-Witch Club and I went, I just did say it's been rubbish today. And I said, all you've been doing is looking at your phone. I said, I haven't seen you see one part of the game yet. Just been staring at your phone. I see youngsters just there filming the game. They go, I film rubbish and all that. I go, how come you, how would you know? Because he's just been looking through your phone.

18:31I'm serious.

18:36Because this kind of underbelly of nonsense can grow very, very quickly online and all the haters get on and then the algorithms hit and people will feed it and they feed it more and they feed it more. And sometimes you've got to sit behind that and go, no, it is crap. So I've got to change it. But it's getting more difficult. You've got to see through that. You know what I mean? And that is part of it. You know, the media do it as well. They work on algorithms. You know what I mean? So, you know, it's all changing. It's all part of the manager who's going to have to manage this in the future.

19:01And it's going to get more and more difficult. When you're talking about social media, the algorithms, all things, people swiping, news stories, comments, how difficult for that is, not to manage from your own point of view, but all the players are on social media, everyone's seeing something. So how difficult is it to you to come in the next day after maybe a bad defeat or something's happened and you're telling the players, this is the message, we've already together, and then basically everyone's just listened to all of them. Yeah, that's a great shout out. Yeah, because that gives me a bit more depth to explain.

19:33I'm not about my managing that. I don't mean me, right? I can take the heat. I've had the heat all my life. I've got ginger ale for Christ's sake, so I've had plenty of heat in my time. But you get my point. So what I mean is you're right. So it's managing what comes next from that. So, you know, you can see through all that because that's part of your job. You take the good stuff, you take the bad stuff and you package it all together and you make sense of it. But now it adds on to your staff and your players and the families and their guests. And you know what I mean? And it starts swelling into this kind of noise, you know what I mean, as I call it.

20:01now handling that is the bit now the easiest way of handling it is to win you know it goes away very quickly when you win a game but when the underbelly sets in it's very difficult then you know what i mean it changes and then you get the players start weirdly the modern player not all by the way a lot more players will believe the person in the stand will not believe the manager and the coach and you go how was that then so they with all due respect you know i might be an it consultant said you're the best thing since sliced bread and yet you take that and go well well, so-and-so said I'm playing really well.

20:30And you go, who's so-and-so? And they'll say, you know, their agent will ring and say, well, social media said they're doing really well. And you'd be like, really? You know, what does that mean? I'm the manager and I've got coaches here. I've had 350 games in the Premier League, but you're trusting an algorithm or a story. And I'm serious. Not all players, but there's players like that. I know agents now are saying to, you know, sorry, players, young players saying to agents, you know, they're going, you know, one of them in the first team. And you go, yeah, yeah, of course. and then there's others going, we want them to get a million followers and all that.

21:00And they haven't even played a first team game. I mean, that's just the way football's going. I'm deadly serious. And I'd sit there and I'd just sit there bemused going like, are they calling me a dinosaur? And I'm going, I'm pleased I'm a dinosaur. That's the case. And I'm serious. I'm serious. Some of these things that are going on in football at the moment, they're going to be very difficult when they're in full for managers. Now, to keep my rumble going, the difference with the younger managers is a lot of them now are growing up with this. So I get why some of the owners might be going, Right, you know like a hercela Brian was he say five 36 so I don't I can't remember but Yet me and his general probably grew up at the beginning of all this so they're probably like oh yeah Well, you know all the players do all this you get away you find it more difficult Well, I just find it not very more difficult for me in the sense He's more alarming to me for the game because if that's where the game is going.

21:49I'm going hang on a minute How's that gonna work? So in 10 years time you might sort of a manager might you just walk in and go you have an AI well Liverpool have got an AI and only in Iola so Gareth I'm going to come to you you've got a question for Sean yeah we touched on it in the other show we were talking about sort of sport and directors and you've said earlier in this show about sort of how relationships have changed almost the jobs change I still struggle with that whole sport and director thing as a Liverpool fan the manager's always been sacrosanct and the manager's been the person on the plinth and the people you make statues of and all the rest of it.

22:29And to me, it's hard to understand how there's another fella who signs players, decides what money to spend on them, decides what contracts to renew and what ones not to renew and how much everyone will get and all this kind of thing. And then there's a fella just going, OK, you're just giving me them players, right, I'll manage them then. It feels wrong-headed after however many years of never having that in England. And even now, you know, Carrie, I know you always say, like, I don't get that you want to hear from them. But we're saying we've adopted the sporting director model, but we've only adopted part of it.

23:07Because in Germany, sporting directors sit on the bench and do do press. So it's like, I don't know, we've ended up with this strange hybrid thing for me as a fan. So I just wonder what it was like for you, because obviously you worked for one... Yeah, I mean, Arsene Wenger many years ago, he said, I've got no problem with sporting directors as long as I do exactly what I say. Yeah. So, you know, I mean, yeah, I've worked with all varying groups of people. I haven't personally had where they go, these are your players. I haven't had that because I wouldn't sign up to that. I go, I think you should have a say.

23:39It doesn't mean you have every say. But if you're going to sign a player, I can't believe that the manager can just get any old player who doesn't even fit your system and just go, oh, yeah, let's sign them. So I think the manager should have some say, just using that as an example. the manager for me has to have the control over tactics and stuff like that and also like say not the not the absolute control over player signings but certainly a good opinion a fair opinion on who you should sign um the idea of the coach thing is is becoming more more prevalent it seems to me you know and across football um and the the idea of um ownerships with their uh analysis tools and that and ai included and going to the manager well look we our system says you shouldn't blame them and them and this and that shape and all that that is coming in um now be i've been trying to give a balance for you some of that might be the future of football but some of it surely can't be still need you still need the human element in football you know i mean you're still going to need that at some point and the human opinion i mean i know a lot of the scouting groups i'm not going to name names but the ones who are obvious who have done brilliant with it they started off by students PhD you know geniuses looking at screens and they realized that can't work because they were signing players and when they actually got them in the flesh I went oh they're nowhere near right for tasks as humans so that to then add in the old school scouts then go and check up on all this analysis and check up who they were what they like as characters and all that sort of stuff a great attitude still wins a day if you've got a group of really talented players with a great attitude you're gonna be a group of really telling players I haven't got a great attitude so you've still got to scout that you've still got to learn that whether you're a coach a manager an owner that is still vital and I think that's the bit that will keep football on its purer old school edge against the modern school a bit of a ramble but you know I'm trying to give you as much meat on the bone in a short time as I can you know but this is where I see the game going not how it's been but this is the next step and including what you said about the director of football and the coach or the director of football and manager rather than coach.

25:44It still is a hybrid, I agree. It's still in a flux, I think.

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27:48The new season is here. We know football fans love saying the game's gone, but Skybet are celebrating everything that proves the game's back. This is the Fan Debate, brought to you by Skybet. Sean, we've looked at the role of the manager, some of the first questions. I just want to get into a few specifics now, so a few questions here. Your teams are often recognised for being difficult to play against. How would you describe your core playing style? Very simply, strong fit and organised. If you're not that, you ain't going to win much or you ain't going to succeed. Winning as being, say Burnley, when he was staying in the division.

28:24Do you know what I mean? That everyone actually was staying in the division. Without that, we wouldn't have stayed in the division. So you've got to get that right. And I don't care who you are. I'd tell you, any money, Man City have got it right under Pep. You look at the underbelly of their stats, season after season. Look at the amount of kilometers covered, look at the amount of high speed runs, look at it all, and the talent, of course. So that was a great example to me. East Barcelona side, but just the same. Spain won the World Cup, look at that performance when they were there through the World Cup.

28:52Distances, shape, you know, the dynamic of the side, the mental wellbeing of the side, the organization, all that's intact. So I've only built on the common sense view that strong fit and organized is a great base to work from. And I've always, believe it or not, against this idea and me not wanting to play this style or that style. What's the style that fits the players, not fits me? I was brought up under Brian Clough. He used to play football before everyone else was playing football. But you need the players to play it. You know, if all of us were a top three, well, a Division I side at the time, so they could pick players and find players and mould them into what they want.

29:26Can't do that in a modern game. You know what I mean? Well, not if you're Burnley and you've got that much finance. No one else has got that much. So give them the best chance. give the players the best chance of being the best them. That's what I've always thought was relevant. When you look at the story, you know, I don't know, Michael Keane, well, Tom Eaton, Tom Eaton signed him on a free transfer out of Bristol City, just been relegated, goes on place for England and then moves to Villa for 9 million quib when he's like 33, and heard of. You know, Michael Keane worked with 2 million, signed him with 25.

29:54So he must have been learning something. Do you know what I mean? It wasn't just like a lucky break, you know what I mean? So he must have been doing something right. And that goes back to my point. Play the players so they can be the best them. And not every player, not every centre-half wants to play 500 passes round the back. Some of them want to be top defenders and they make great livings from it. That's going off the game. I think it's going to come back in. I really do. I think there's... You can tell me as fans, but I reckon my underbelly feeling, there's a stronger building underbelly of fans who get bored with it.

30:24Getting bored with people just rolling it round the back, recycling it and all that. Might be wrong, but I think the future of the game is going to be more dynamic. I think you know they've made the keepers now kick it quicker or get rid of it quicker because they've realized if not it just like And everyone's going I think long throws are coming Because they said you've got to throw it in a certain number of seconds now and they realize because I think the powers of being gone It's becoming too staid it's become too clinical to methodical And I think there's an uprising of fans going calm, you know, go go go be an inverted One of the best parts on the back of rad actually he didn't know at the time when I was out and he said yeah it's like old 90s Premier League football I said yeah it's the best compliment I've ever had the 90s Premier League was absolutely brilliant it wasn't mean that it was a compliment by the way but it was a brilliant compliment it was the best compliment the end of the 90s I think in the Premier League was fantastic it was hard it was fast it was aggressive but controlled aggressive I mean sorry I'm panning a little bit I don't mean aggressive people topping it I mean the play you know it was hard fast fast yeah get it forward go and ask questions and some of the talent that came out of that era was unbelievable and I think it's gone backwards in that sense of fan engagement in what they're seeing sometimes and it's just got a bit slow and methodical I think.

31:36Sean, in terms of the opposition, when you're a manager you're playing every three or four days. Yep. What's the first thing you look for when you're analysing the opposition? Well, usually you wouldn't just analyse for three or four days, you'd have reports from three weeks ago and seeing if they change but there'll be a, you know, we all know there's a, not just a style, but there's usually a format that manager will go to. You know, one manager will be a three of the bag, one will be a four, three, three or whatever. Some flex more than others, but not many. They tend to stick what they know.

32:06So you've got the hardcore analysis done. You look at some of the individuals, you look at the injury list and see what's happening there. You look at what you can do against them. Look at your team dynamic, as in what players have you got that you could mould to play against this opposition. yeah again Burnley was a different job we went 4-4-2 all the time because I wanted to try and threaten the opposition with two centre forwards and I thought it fit the team and the other thing even when we used to get beat I used to go but if we'll get better at doing that against the top teams and therefore when we play the teams who are not the top we'll win and if you look at our record over the season we won loads of the games against the bottom 10 teams but that was our job we wanted to stay in the Premier League slightly different ever and a bit more flair and you know like I mean we're missing Dom up front who's now doing great but he didn't have that real run of injury free he would have give us something different maybe flexed it a bit more and the Forest was a bit of a hodgepodge you know of different players and varying types we played some good stuff got it right got it wrong do you know what I mean trying to fathom out the way really so in answer to your question about analysis your pre-game plan on the opposition and that'd be you've got to look at you believe it or not we used to look at the team that we were playing more often than not and even if it looked like we'd just rolled out the same thing we hadn't we'd had debates for ages about do you get stronger do you get weaker you know what mental state are they in what physical state and all that sort of stuff there's a lot more to it than just rolling it out trust me Matt you got a question?

33:31Yeah I want to talk about set pieces Arsenal I think found a bit of a gap in the market in the last couple of years yeah they crossed it and added it in it's amazing but it's a lot more than that and that's why I want to ask you how difficult is it to master that method of crossing it in and heading it in because Arsenal did it a lot last year. You could say we wouldn't have won the league without it. But there's no other team that seems to do as well. There's a lot going on between the crossing and the heading though. To be fair, you're missing a bit. Yeah, but that's the master part of it. Harassing the goalkeeper and clotheslining him and rug bottoming the centre-back.

34:05They did find a way that other teams couldn't to make corners really effective. It was frustrating to watch Arsenal think every time they had a corner, this could... No, but you turn it... The genius is not actually whether you score on the corner. The genius is to turn it into a myth. It turned into a myth in the end. So every time Arsenal got a corner, I would say, oh, they can score. I remember going to Liverpool when, do you remember, they couldn't defend a corner. We were at Burnley and we were going, yeah, just load it in the box. Just pile it in the box many times. Well, because there was loads of noise.

34:33Do you remember there was a period when there was loads of noise but they couldn't defend a corner? So do you get what I mean? Sometimes you can create a myth. My Burnley side, how hard they were. Do you know, one year, do you know, we were going to get a place in Europe, I think possible place you remember the play I went over there I said right go and start smashing people I'd have been embarrassed What do you think is more important? But but my point is we didn't I never told anyone that we were hard or soft I just went yeah, no competitive. Why would it why would it take away that myth? If you're also why everyone last season was thinking they're gonna score it So do you get what I mean?

35:07So they did score but the point is they keep layering it off So I said to be fair, so it's not really part of his philosophy, but he let it go It was almost like a keep the keep that going. Yeah Why wouldn't you because he gets an ear in the end? Especially at home and stuff like that and then you're right about the point of then you have the methodology You know, are you blocking are you going down? I think you know one of the things I used to do was go someone goes down at the box every first corner and stuff like that You know, I mean that's one for you. I just want to I want to follow up People are not do actually know what I do.

35:35I will. Yeah, so we could we'd be screaming straight away the fourth Do you know what I mean? So there's loads of different ways of doing it. Do you think that the set pieces are underutilised? Because it's such a great opportunity. Well, it was a dirty word when I was doing it at Burnley. I'm not just saying it to try and protect myself. I mean it. When I was doing it at Burnley, it was all they do is work hard and rely on set pieces. Now it's on trend. And that's just the way football is. Tony Pughley's got a hammer for years, Carol, when you played, didn't he? And now he's on trend, Tony Pughley's for people.

36:00But it's like... Long throws and all that. I was saying on commentary last year, it felt like it was the set piece league there was long throws and corners coming in and if you remember so the best team in the league are doing it Arsenal the best team in Europe are Paris Saint-Germain now Paris Saint-Germain from a kick off or kicking the ball out of play like a rugby team like a kick off the touch you did it the other day didn't I Chelsea did it the other day Chelsea I think yeah so what I'm saying is it was like I was I was I was watching this go on last season I'm thinking I remember Graham Taylor as an England manager like 30 years ago, absolutely lambasted for set pieces, but also kicking the ball out from the kickoff.

36:41It was a bit like, what is this? But when Paris Saint-Germain did it, it's like, well, what can you say? We were saying, Riquet. It's on trends, yeah. It's on trends, yeah. But I think when the, when, I think set pieces. Bournemouth did that and Everton did it last year, the rugby one, kicked it up. They got that one where someone kicks it by, Boise was doing it. But my point being is, I think set pieces and long throws, and you're saying Tony Pudor's got criticised for it, yourselves at Burnley, it was always seen as something like the team's fighting for their lives to give them an extra advantage or that was their way of getting the ball in the box, basically.

37:13But when the top teams do it, it's a bit like everyone looks at each other and goes, well, no one can say nothing about them, so no one can say nothing about me if Arsenal are doing it. You can't have a go at me for this kickoff if Luis Enrique's doing it. I don't understand. What these clubs have been really clever with, they put a tag in it, don't they? So bring in a set-piece coach. Yeah. You know all my staff, all pro-licence holders. Seriously, if they couldn't organise a set piece, I'd be sacking them. So you're not having them the set piece? No, hang on. I've got analytics. We had analysis at Burnley looking at set pieces, the opposition, what we can do against the opposition.

37:47But the idea of someone, just a physical person, going out there and doing it, why? Because my staff should be working with the analysis, sorry, and going, look, this is what we're looking at. My staff can organise it. I don't see why you need someone who just sits there staring at the same thing as the analytics there. Can I ask you something on that? Because I'm just thinking of obviously a set-piece coach. I wouldn't be against it, but I mean, I wouldn't be... Yeah. I wouldn't be basing with for it. I'd just go, all right, if you want me to have a set-piece, but I can't do. Do you think... Because I know the guy at...

38:13Who's the guy who's going to Chelsea? Oh, from Villa? Yeah. So he's seen... You made a fee for him? Yeah. Is he going to start getting booed if they didn't score? Yeah. What do you think? The crowd's like, rubbish, get him off, buy another one. Buy another set-piece coach. He was at Villa. And when Stevie went into Villa, it was like, no, it was a Dean Smith before Stevie so obviously he leaves with his staff but I know when Stevie went in it was like no he's a club appointment he's staying so then so then okay he's there with Stevie but then he now moves to Chelsea for a fee and what I've noticed with Chelsea now rather large fee I'm sold yeah but what I've noticed with Chelsea is when you're watching the games when the game's going on Xavi Alonso's out in the technical area like a manager as soon as a set piece happens he sits down and he steps He stands up.

39:02Now, that again, I don't know if I'm saying it, but I'm 99 % saying that was like, no, we're bringing this guy in as a club appointment and you've got to know you're the manager of this. This is almost like a separate issue. Would that be a problem for you going into a club? It wouldn't be a problem, but you've got to work with them but let them know that, you know, well, mine was slightly different because we were quite big on set pieces. We know that Everton now sell tremendously. Everton during our period, especially when Dom was in, we won games through it. So that was a weapon for us there, it was a weapon at Burnley.

39:34So my guys should notice that piece because of our history. But if you didn't, or your guys weren't that long in the tooth with it, why not? I'm not against it, I must make that clear. I just find it sometimes it's like a big deal over not a lot. If you've got pro-licensed coaches on your staff who can sit with an analytics person who's gone through it all, I don't see the point of why you need someone else to do that. I just throw in coach, don't even get me started. There was no point. It's what's his name, Thomas Grunemar. It's all against him as a person, by the way, but just so you know, but he's farcical.

40:06You don't know how to do a throne as a professional footballer, there's something wrong.

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42:50Baz, I'm going to bring you in What's your question? Well, it was going to be about the points deduction You have talked about that a lot But VAR, because it's still doing my head in We added it on Saturday Everton scored a goal on Saturday I thought you'd have stood and think it Five goalies wouldn't have saved it He added it in off the post It's ruled out for offside Brennan Johnson was offside but that'll be given 10 other times but I did think of you when the referee walked over to the screen and I remember you saying it's absolutely right like what's the point you know what he's going to give the way that came from because I try and fight with facts at one of the Premier League meetings I said they were making a big deal over why it's necessary and why they talked to Cromwell I said so tell me how many were turned over last year one and I went so all that for all over one referee who turned over a decision because everyone who goes to money agrees so I said so what is the point it slows the game down it makes it more laborious now they have the referee talking to the fans I have no clue what that's all about it might not be natural to you as a referee it doesn't mean you're a bad referee to talk to 78 ,000 people or whatever you can't even hear it and then you're going to get battered afterwards so it can never work out because it's almost like you know they go you want it to be like rugby well it's not rugby the crowds are not rugby crowds it's not even their decision it's someone else but what I wanted that actually hasn't managed yet I mean you're seeing these these decisions afterwards and you look back and go how on earth has that been given when these people are looking at it?

44:13How do you manage that? The offside one was fast. I mean, I don't even know what's going on there. My idea to just share it with you, or my thought, I said to Howard at one of these meetings, I said, you know, control tower's right, and flights come in. I know it's deadly serious compared to four, but you have a point. So anyway, when they come in, they have a specialist, and when it's all going off, they'll have two or three top people who come in and make the decision. I said, why don't you do that? Why don't you just have someone who comes in the other day and just says, no, I'm making the decision.

44:40bang, end of. It's offside. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. Rather than these five-minute debates. Why? It seems like they're more scared about getting the decision wrong than actually getting it right. If that makes sense. No, it does make sense. And they've got so many... You know, if you keep looking at something, you'll find it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you know what I mean? On the other hand, on the other hand, I'm not just saying it's one against Forrest. You know, I still care about Forrest. But that was a foul the other day, you know, and the fans keep... He treads on his foot and you can see him hobbling away, you know what I mean?

45:09that has to be given as a foul. The lad actually tried to sort of attempt to go and throw his head in front of it. What are the meetings like, John? You said before about this, because what I find interesting is if you've done a poll of all the supporters, I think most people have said you don't want VAR, yeah? But the clubs run the Premier League. When people say the Premier League, it's the clubs who sort of, you know, you vote on things. And the clubs always vote for, like, there's only one club who don't want it. I think it was Wolves, wasn't it? But are you in these meetings or is it above you in terms of VR?

45:40It's always the stakeholders. They're going, right, OK. Who are them famous stakeholders? Because it ain't us. Do you know what I mean? But you were allowed to give you... I'll be right. I'll give you my professional VR because of the reason, right, you can lose a job as a manager. That can't be right. Do you remember, you must remember, Villa stayed up because of Sheffield United scored. They would have gone down. That was goal line technology. It was switch stuff. Sorry, but... Yeah, yeah, yeah. They stayed up. So if you're a Villa fan, if they ever questioned it, I'd go, really? You stayed in the...

46:07You know, you stayed in the Premier League because of it. My view as a professional person, when I am working, obviously, is if your job's on the line, it should be that that technology is in place, particularly things like offside, which are getting quicker. That should be OK, and goal line technology. I don't think you should lose a job because of a decision like that. I think that's unfair on the person involved as well, the referee and the lines people. You know what I mean? I think that's unfair. But as a fan, I totally get it. I mean, as a manager as well, you know, it's horrid when you're standing there.

46:37especially in a big game, you're thinking, oh, you've got to be kidding me. You know what I mean? And they walk home and they do that thing that I hate when they walk home, they're staring at the game, you go, oh, God, just get on with it. We know what's going to happen. Or 99 % chance what's going to happen. The ref is going to give exactly what he's been told to give. But do you feel the same, because I think we all do, that you see a goal allowed one week and then it's disallowed the next week? It's virtually the same. How do you get your head around? Well, what I will tell you at these meetings, they do back it with stats.

47:03So they'll say, you know, there was 69 game-changing decisions this season and success rate of, you know, 84 % is right. No, but if you think about that in real terms, that's important. That is important to give a fair playing field. And the old days were right. When Sam Lallis used to mow about it, the big clubs get the decision. He was right. He was right. Because I used to, you know, I was at Burnley, for Christ's sake. You know, we'd play, I remember once at Arsenal, they got a goal last minute. Must have been three yards offside and it gets given. You know, crowd will go mad. And you think, oh, come on, you know what I mean?

47:35So that's where it does get. it does even it up a bit, you know what I mean, where the big clubs now can't get all the decisions because of the technology. But I totally agree from the fan point of view, I must smell it because I always get cain for this. As a fan, I totally agree. I mean, oh, it's a championship now and they score and they run off and it's done and it would crack on, you know what I mean? It was always just a look at the Langeman. You look at the Langeman, we're all right. Spencer Preston the other week in the Carabao Cup, it was great. Langeman's giving, refs give it, celebrate.

48:01But I will say though, The refs are under massive pressure. It's fair to give them a helping hand if you can with technology, but I just don't get all the laborious nature of it and how long it takes. It can speed up the end. Sorry for interrupting, just because I come to you now. The decision that we were talking about, I think we started when we were talking about the offside. When you listen to them going over it, I think Howard Webb does the show doesn't he? He goes through the decisions. and the fear is how that they need to hurry up can you hurry up quick quick okay so this thing it was always saying how long it's obviously gets into the the mindset of them do a quick well it's too long it's too long I'd say slow down did you hear but that's not just I just say hang on a minute we're going to show you five years ago boom boom but they come and go right what's your decision but they do they sound all like that's what I mean yeah it's a ha ha and you're like alright that's why I think there should be an overseer who comes along and says takes all that putting away it's right it's on me yeah that's that's offside and I said that in one of the meetings I'm not saying I'm right I just gave it as an opinion because you're not telling me you couldn't have a VR absolute specialist who just patrols all the VRs maybe two or three who stand there and that's just their job is to overrule things and they take the heat for it you know that's the way it goes shouldn't it be a separate company who does it though Germany I'm sure it's a separate it's not the referees so it's someone else who does the VR I think that's the minutia, it shouldn't be that difficult.

49:29Surely as fans, we've all sat there, wherever you are, I am in a pub or in the stadium and go, that's offside. Everyone looked at that City one, didn't they? It's offside. Yeah. So that can't be rocket science, no matter who's running it. Adam, what do you want to say, mate? No, it was just the refs for me make the problem even worse in the fact that they don't like to... Remember you had Mike Dean on here saying he didn't want to pull up one of his mates on a decision. It's like, so what is the point of you even existing then? Why are you here? I feel like a lot of them are just really bad. They're really bad at their jobs.

49:59They get away with it and they make excuses. What I will say, to give you an insight, they are struggling to get refs into the game now because he's got that difficult. And, you know, let's face it, it's open to everyone. You know, women, men, it doesn't matter. It's open to everyone. But it's getting so much more difficult to get these referees to the standard they need to be because of the pressure and because of the amount of heat on it. How can you ever get better if you're not challenging each other? Like, you get these ref pundits now who will pull up a decision and go, oh, yeah, actually, I think he's done the right thing.

50:30And then you'll show a complete opposite one. Yeah, he's done the right thing. It's like challenge each other, like challenge each other to get better. Challenge each other. The other day at United, I wasn't angry about it because I thought United were worse than the refs, interestingly enough. But the decision was so clearly wrong. And it's not a case of pressure or time. It's knowing the rules. Like just simply know the rules. And they talk about how they're professional now and they have all these training camps and you go and visit them at the start of the season and stuff. It's like, what are you doing?

50:56They're well looked after. It is a profession. Yeah. You know, these referees have all the analysis, tools, everything, to be the best them they can be. And they get help with the psychology side of things, which I think is fair because I've always said, well, I've said for years, the suite of his jobs in Enneagram, sadly, are the two managers and the ref. That's why I think. That's where football's gone. And I think VR or no VR, it's really difficult now, refereeing. And it's ironic because everyone thinks I'm on them all the time. Here's what I'm afraid. I never called referees' names, never.

51:26Never called a referee a name. Leave that with me. That's not... I've never screamed a referee a name. I've screamed what... On the touchline? Does that come from Brian Clough? I've never said it to a player. I've never called a player a derogatory name. I've never called an official a derogatory name. I just think, well, it's just respect. I wouldn't do that. I mean it sincerely. On the record, you mean, or on the touchline? Never matter. Of the record, you don't think I'm called a player? Come on, just check on three. Come on. I am human. Right, Sean, we'll get into modern-day management. Are formations becoming less important than specific roles and movements players make?

52:07Can I take some formation? You know, it was a media view that came around probably when you started about 13, 15 years ago around then. Was that about right? It started to become quite a hot debate, you know, a hot topic, do you know what I mean? And rightly so, because after me, you couldn't just keep everyone, and match of the day with all jurisdictions, they didn't try hard enough or whatever. It needed more depth. So then when you provide that to the nation, they all become experts, so therefore it becomes more of a thing. You hear fans now in the pub when I was a kid, it'd just be like, oh, we didn't do very well today, he missed that chance.

52:36Now it'd be like, well, the manager should have played a 4-3-3 instead of a 4-4-2 and a floating nine. You know, and I'd go, I mean, you go, yeah, of course. So it was valid. I think it's crept into football where there's a lot more weight put on it, because a 4-4-1-1 and a 4-2-3-1, you know, they're like five yards here and there. Do you know what I mean? So I think there's valid that it's viewed as a viewpoint and a media structure, but for fans to get involved with, I don't think it's like that. I don't think there often is in teams. Probably the only one that changed that is a three when you go to a three.

53:06That does change the dynamic, yeah. But the variations of a four, 4-3-3, 4-4-1-1, you know, 4-2-3 and all of that, are more or less what they are for me. It's just yardages. And if you crunch the pitch right away defensively, you kill that shape anyway. But the 3-5-2 or the 4-3 threat, 3-4-3 and all that, you know. I mean, when we used to play Man City, I always thought they were out of order playing a 5-4-3. You know, they had that many players, I thought that was a disgrace. And they were against our 11, but... No, you get what I mean, though. I think there's a lot more made of it than what there should be.

53:35But I do get it from the media point of view, because it is another tool to use to try and explain the game to people, you know what I mean? What qualities does a young manager need today that might not have been as essential when you first... Tolerance, I think. Acceptance of what they're seeing in front of them rather than thinking you're going to change it all. You're not. So, yeah, again, tolerance, I suppose. Awareness of the media. You've got to be way more media savvy and know how to not control the media because you're never going to, but try and work with it rather than against it. The days of, you know, mother's just telling the media to F off and that.

54:13They've gone. So you're going to have to work with the media. And it's more of an understanding of modern life. I don't think it's just... Football life's changed because modern life's changed. The creature, the animal has changed. I mean, players have changed. So I think you've just got to be ready for that. And if you think you're going to tell them to do this and they're just going to do it, they're not. They're going to go away and they're going to get 500 more views. Not views from social media, but from people around them. Ask everyone around them, agents, friends, family, whatever, and then come back to you with another view.

54:43And you go, all right. So you just have to keep going through the cycle. So does that mean if that is the case does that mean if you go into management You'd have to change or would you say I'm not changing this? This is me. This is what I do I think I think there's a I've changed you wouldn't believe it Yeah, I know that be you've changed massively from when I first died because you have to you can't survive Really 15 years 350 Premier League games don't sound a lot, but it's like as an English coach and you have to change You can't just keep applying and cultures and creeds and color and everything comes into it You know, it's not just the football.

55:15You know, I was dealing with the lads at Everton who are Muslims and that. That was new to me, you know, dealing with that sort of thing. How could I help them? How could I help involve them through their prayers? How could I help them get through, you know, their schedule? You know what I mean? And all stuff like that. So you've got to be more savvy about just not just the footballer. What's their life look like? You know what I mean? And I was very fortunate. I had some good experiences along the way of doing that, especially at Burnley. You know, little things are getting a crash for the players on a match day.

55:42And, you know, they seem obvious now. Most of the clubs have this now, but we were doing that a long time ago, trying to look after the player, making them feel secure so they could play their best football. So I think that's all got to go into your melting pot. Whereas before it was just tell them what to do, instruct them properly, coach them properly, win games and that was it. Now there's a lot, lot more to it. On that turn, like, you know, is it is it is it literally like you probably can't ballock a player like you once could before? Because they'll be off then. To be honest, they're few and far between.

56:11honestly you can imagine because of the way I look because of the way I sound people presuppose I'm doing that all the time I wasn't it was very rare and it was never like I said never called a player a name you know if it was I need to exaggerate the point because it's just it is pointless now you know you try I'd always try and fight with facts if I'm going to give players some not stick but try and educate them I'd show them I'd show them on the screen now you've got analysis coming out your ears the only strangest thing I've ever come across and he's a prominent player was anyone who showed him on the screen they went no no and I said that's not me out there you know that's you they wouldn't have it knowing this is like on a screen I couldn't get my head around that one I thought I've not I've adopted it what was you sort of saying they're out of position or something yeah it was the oddest thing and I went you know that one in the end when you just got all right Just let him leave because we don't want to.

57:06He was the most bizarre dude, he was a proper player. And I went to the next day and I went, have you made sense? And I went, no, not really. I went, alright, leave it then. But I think, you know, my coaching style and management style has always been this. Five key lanes of visual audio, kinesthetic, written and discussion. So I just keep going around that. Just find your way, which is the one you like, which is the one that suits you. We did, you know, mind mapping and all sorts of players. Love language? I'm not quite sure about love language. What were they again, Sean? That went really quickly then.

57:38Visual audio, kinesthetic, written and discussion. They're the five main learning styles, first human being. So if you keep rotating around them, you know, with a player, you find the ones that work with them the best, and it just takes time. But if you haven't got time, you know, to work them out. So we just try and fast track it with psychological profiling, and that gives you a measure of who they are and what they are, and you maybe fast track your learning into what they are. Right, Luke, you've got a question? Apart from playing 4-4-2 and kicking it forward. Yeah, yeah, and winning, scoring goals.

58:04Yeah, yeah. I was going to say, like, who's the best player you've come up against and would you have picked that player to come into your side if you could have had them? 100%, David Silva. Okay, yeah. Absolutely. Just because it's this big, it worked his rear off. I once said to him, because I loved him when he was at City, he ripped us every single game. He's very respectful, the way he conducted himself and everything. And he had a weave. and I even said to him the next year, I went, you've even got a brilliant weave. And he snooked him out, thanks coach. Then he copied your echo after that.

58:38So no, as a player, David Silva. As a footballer, I once played against Janinho, some player, you must remember him, what a player. What a player. At the semi-finals. Oh my goodness. Honestly, what a player. Talk about running, this fellow, a little Brazilian player, oh my goodness, like five foot four. The Burrard. So as a footballer, him, you might have to Google him. But yeah, someone I've played against, David Silva I think. There's loads over on me. The David Silva one, would you have just built the team around him and know what you'd have done? If in theory you could have added him to your team.

59:07He likes David Silva, it's alright. Say that again. Would you have put him in your team? Van Dyke was another one, Van Dyke played at Burnley once and we were like, Who is that? Who is this big animal just stroking around the football pit, strolling around, you know what I mean? There's been a load but David Silva was the one who I think was, he could pick your pocket out of nowhere. So yeah, he's probably the best. Who's the best you ever managed? I think would have been with Stephen DeFore, but Kieran Trippier, I think. As a lad as well, love him as a kid. Love him as a kid. And I think he's a fantastic forwarder, way better than you could think.

59:38You know, if you see him up close, he had every tool that you could think of with his... Sorry, every pass in his right foot. Pochettino started Trippier over Karl Walker often, I suppose. Yeah, Karl Walker was terrific, yeah, as a specimen as well. But Tripp's not rapid or anything, but his game knowledge, his right foot, but he's like a wand. Honestly, what a player, what a player. Technically superb. And he's a great lad as well. Great crack.

1:00:09I had one more question. Thought you might. Do you think that the over analysis of youngsters coming through academies where they're tracking all the data and saying that, like I was saying about protecting the players, making sure they don't kick too many balls. do you think that's going to affect the longevity of their career because their bodies aren't used to playing so much football? What worries me about academies, because there's some brilliant things in academies, let me make that clear, the weather's structured, the health and safety is amazing. But what worries me is it's a job before it's a job.

1:00:43So you get them to 18 and it's almost like it's a job. The hunger that we, the feeling I got when I played my first first team game, it was only for Chesterfield, I didn't make it at Forest as a pro, but I went to chess and the feeling I got from that was like I can't even tell you and I wonder now they're almost game ready for it but the problem is by about three years time the love and the care of it has almost gone you know like a bit you know imagine like after a game if we used to lose I'd feel it for like two days and now I don't know whether they do do you know what I mean and not because I'm not attacking youngsters what I mean is they're bought out of that cycle of that feeling because but before they've even felt that feeling the coach come along and said oh we've got your Nancy she did this you did that next week you'll be better so they just thought oh all right do you know what i mean yeah well i used to have to feel that for like two days three days and you know but it's self-learning you work yourself out and it builds resilience in yourself and i just worry that kind of has gone so pure and technical and you know methodical that it you know these kids now are getting 16 they're almost a bit done they're almost a bit like do you know what i mean they're a bit flat lined they're Like, well, you know, the excitement, the love and the desire of it.

1:01:51Yeah, the buzz kind of softens a bit. I'm not sure. I can't measure this. It's just a gut feeling. But on the other hand, the academies are set up like incredibly. What they do for these kids nowadays and, you know, the women's football, the growth in that is incredible. So there's so many good things. But I do worry about the fabric of what it is. You know what I mean? And what it means. Some quickfire questions, Sean. Funniest player in the dressing room? Well, I normally hold my own self as the funniest. Yeah, yeah, of course so. Both player and manager and coach, actually. I don't know. There's been that many who had their motor trips.

1:02:26It's funny. Stephen Reid is a mate of mine, dead dry, but he's funny. You know, there's loads down the years. I mean, they've dealt with hundreds and hundreds of players. You know what I mean? The most difficult player to manage. Do you know what? I've been fortunate. I really mean it. I don't know if it's the culture we set or maybe I just sniffed them out and got about quickly but I haven't really had one that's been, you know, not really difficult. You have difficult tees with players at times but not one that's ever been absolute nightmare, you know, stuff. Who's the best manager out there right now?

1:02:58Oh, well, it would have been Pep. So Alex of all time for me. Pep more recently. Goodness me. Premier League, I'll keep it to the Premier League. I don't know, you know. I really don't know because there's that many, you know what I mean, they haven't got the longevity to say you are. I tend to put himself in the slot, of course, but you get what I mean, he's 1-1, you know what I mean? It's like, you know, to be the real deal, I'm going, go on then, go again, go again, go again, you know what I mean? So I don't think there's anyone out there who's so outstanding, but I think he's obviously put himself up there now with winning the league.

1:03:36Best manager you played under? John Duncan. People wouldn't know him. We lost him a few years ago. My manager at Chesterfield Football Club, brilliant manager. Brilliant fella as well. With the glasses at all. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, we lost him a few years ago, but brilliant fella and a brilliant manager. Taught me so much about the game. What's the most woke thing about football now? Where do you want me to start? We're doing songs with memes and voicing it and pretending they're the voice and all that. And socks and bowls in the back. and I don't know, people, you know, putting, I don't know, like, you know, having scans on a snapped eyelash.

1:04:12Do you know what I mean? I just go like, really? The players are having scans on everything. The players have a scan every day. I've scan every day. What about tiny shin pads? Yeah, that's another thing. The list is endless. Everyone's got a little shock straight down, isn't it? The list is endless. Yeah, they have a shin pad that big, because legally you have to wear them, don't you? So they do these shin pads, they're literally like that big, and they go, yeah, that's going to stop me having a broken leg, isn't it? But then again, no one tackles each other, so they don't matter to it. It's ideally non-contact now.

1:04:36Brilliant. Well done. So that's it for another episode of The Fan Debate brought to you by Skybet. See you next time.

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