It Was What It Was: Rafa Benitez: My Coaching Secrets - Part One

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1:08So welcome to It Was What It Was with me, Rob Draper, and Jonathan Wilson. And welcome to a very special edition with an exceptional guest. A coach who Jonathan and I believe transformed the Premier League tactically. Indeed, his appointment 20 years ago in June 2004 came within a week of another Southern European coach. a Portuguese coach, also young, also very confident, also very tactically innovative. And between them, we think these two coaches completely changed English football. So our guest today is going to explain his part in that transformation. And he won two La Ligas and a UEFA Cup with Valencia.

1:45The FA and the UEFA Super Cup with Liverpool. The World Club Cup with Inter. The Europa League with Chelsea. The Copa Italia with Napoli. The Championship with Newcastle. Too many Super Cups and Community Shields to mention. And of course, on one memorable night in Istanbul, in perhaps the most dramatic final of all time in 2005, he won the Champions League with Liverpool. He is, of course, the great Rafa Benitez. Rafa, welcome to the show. Thank you very much. It's a pleasure to be here. That's an awful lot of trophies that you won. Yeah, I won some of them. But normally as a coach, people, they don't realise how difficult it is to win.

2:22To win is always difficult, but how difficult it is to win in another country? because you have to adapt to different culture and then the language and everything. But also I would say to promote. So the promotions and championships, you know how difficult it is to promote. But I did it also twice in Spain. That means that you are a coach. So you have the idea in England, there's a manager and coach. But in Spain, there's a coach. And then when you came to England, you are the manager and still you are a coach. You go on the pitch every day. you coach your players your staff everyone and then after you are the manager so that means that you have to spend maybe 12 hours 14 hours every day at the beginning until you realise more or less what is your specific job and a friend of mine that is around he told me when we won the Champions League listen you are the manager now you can make the difference so you can make decisions about how the structure is going on because before you were a coach that's it coaching so before we sort of get into that in detail and the challenges of moving to a new country.

3:26Let's go right back to the start, to your early life in Spain. So your mother was a Real Madrid fan, your father was not a Lettico fan, but tell me about your early experience of football. Were you playing football? Were you watching football? Were you going to the stadium? Were you listening on the radio? How did you first experience football? Yeah, some people say, oh, he didn't play football. It's not true. We were playing football since I was, I don't know, three years old. And we were spending all the year and the summer playing football all the time. And when I was 11 years old, I was playing for the school in Madrid.

4:01You have a competition between all the schools in Madrid. So that is really good for promoting football. I was playing on Saturday. And with 12 years old, I was playing 11 years old. Ricardo Gallego was my school, my team. The year after that he left, I was the captain of the team and we won the competition in Madrid. That is quite an achievement for a 12 years old. especially because Madrid is a big city. It's like you say, oh, we play in London, and you win the competition. So I was playing football. Then I had a trial with Real Madrid, and I passed. And then at 13 years old, I started playing for Real Madrid in the academy.

4:39And obviously I was progressing, and we won the Youth Cup when I was 18 years old. I was fine as a player. I was playing as a sweeper at this time and as a holding midfielder. And I started as a right winger, but I was not a winger. I did have the pace. As a holding midfielder, I could see the game because I was not the quickest, but I could see tactically what was going on around me. So right from those early days, you had a very strategic brain. I will tell you something more. So 18 years old, we won the Youth Cup. And 19 years old, I was injured. But when I was 13 years old, my father gave me a notebook and I was taking notes of all my team, giving marks as a journalist and then controlling the goals.

5:22and then I was always, in Spain it was 0-3, and 3 was really good, and I was always 2-3, never was at 0, so I was doing all this control. 16 years old, during the summer, I was coaching my friends. We played competitions in the summer, and when I went to the university, 17 years old, I started as a player coach, so in my head always I was thinking as a coach, and I didn't notice, I didn't realise, I was just playing and enjoying. And in the university, obviously, I did also the specialisation in football. So I was always thinking football, football. And I was thinking as a coach. Do you remember your first game that you went to?

6:03Was it Santiago Bernabeu? Or did your father take you? As a fan? As a fan, yeah. As a child? I don't remember. It could be Bernabeu. Because when I was 13 and we were training on Friday, so if you go to Madrid, to the Bernabeu, it was a the angle of the Bernabeu was called the angle and then it was where my pitch was was a small pitch of sand because in Spain you have sand you don't have grass everywhere and it was for example when you were going give me the boots then the kid man was okay which number 41 take this one it's a 44 come on boy get out and then you were going with a 44 and then you have to change which one 42 okay give me this 44 so that was the way and you were watching football all the time.

6:50So we trained in the sports centre that is where the four towers are now. And we were walking. It was around 20, 30 minutes walking, depending on your pace, to the stadium. You have to go one hour and a half, two hours early because you go to the third ring that we say and then you stand up. The third tier of the stadium. Yeah. So you have to go at the top. So you stand at the back. But then you have to go early Because there were five rows So you go in the fifth So you couldn't see anything And the players were very small So you have to go early You go with your sandwich And then the way that we were watching games At this time And you're 12, 13 at this age?

7:32Yeah, 13 could be I guess if you're seeing the game from above If you want to see the shape of the game That's the perfect place to be Yeah, perfect But then you could see the players You could recognise the players Because you were watching them training Oh, this is San Jose Oh, this is Del Bosque but the normal people will see small ants moving around From your point of view, understanding the game from a strategic point of view, it's ideal Yeah, it could be fine for sure, let's say, I didn't realise at this time that I was a coach but when I was in the university and I was playing for Real Madrid and I was a better player than my teammates at this time, I was in the stands and I was watching the game and something was wrong and I said, OK, I have to play now so I always had this vision from outside and also you are too young but at this time when you were playing as a sweeper you could see everything so the sweeper could anticipate what was going on and I could see that as a holding midfielder it's different because you can see what is going on but you don't know what is going on behind you the sweeper always was protected so then you have this vision and you analyse and then I was a talker so when I was getting older with my injury.

8:44I was injured when I was 19. When I was getting older, I was talking more and more because I couldn't run. How did your teammates respond to that? If you're playing with people at the university, are they quite happy to be directed? Humans and players, they are not stupid. They realise when someone is telling you something that is right. So I was always managing and I was more or less right because I used to win. It was the coach, the referee, and sometimes the owner of the ball, so you have to win. No, but you were giving advice and they appreciate that. They follow me because I was always learning and explaining and I think that they believe in me at this time.

9:26And that strategic intelligence, did that come out in any other way or was it just in football? I was playing chess. I liked to play chess. I was not great, but I was having a lot of books and reading and preparing open play, this, blah, blah, blah. And a friend of mine that was really brilliant and we were playing in the playground and we didn't have space for playing football because it was full of people. So sometimes we played chess and I was learning and I played a strategy. That was another strategic game. So I liked to analyse how can you do this, how can you do that. So it's always the idea how to improve.

10:03So you say that the coach is looking for the perfection and then I was looking for tactically, you can do this, you can do that. Physically, I was training all the time. My brother was in the disco and I was training on Saturday. And you try to do your best in everything. And when you have your injury, then you realise little by little that you cannot be at the level that you want to be. And then you spend even more time studying and visiting teams and then going to see another coach or something like that. Your great hero at this time is Franz Beckenbauer. and I think you're at Real Madrid and you've got Paco Chente, you've got Camacho, Del Bosque, who's a great influence on your career, but you choose a German who, of course, Germany are in the World Cup final in 1974, win the World Cup and Bayern Munich are winning the European Cup.

10:51Why Beckenbauer? It was more about the position. He was a sweeper and I used to play as a sweeper so I liked the way he was very elegant, always with the head up. So I have a poster at home with him and another one with Johan Cruyff. You can see both with the head up. that is really important to see the big picture during a game to understand the game so that is the kind of thing after when I was in Madrid obviously we were playing with them on Thursday morning we have a game against the first team I say always to Del Bosque I make a tunnel to him I don't remember he said so you were remembering these kind of things and there were a lot of good players there but ideally it was Beckenbauer Germany was doing well obviously who's this handsome young man from it was me in 1979 in Mexico so because I was in the university people they know about the Olympic games but they don't know about the Universidad the university games so you have to, it's like the Olympic games but you have to have a degree or you have to be in the university so then I was in the physical education university in this case and then they called me as a sweeper I was 19 years old I was the youngest player in the team and we played in Mexico I remember we played against America when Deseo was there and it was a great team and Cruz Azul was the other one two friendlies and after we played the first game was against Cuba and we beat them 4-0 and it's the first time that I was taking a penalty because I was doing so well this time in the 15 days before the training camp that the manager take the penalty and I was too young and I didn't have this experience and I remember the keeper that was I would say the ball defender he was telling me I would say the ball he was shuffling then when I scored okay shut up then we beat them and the second game was against Canada and then I was as a stripper I was running forward with the ball and then he came from behind number 10 and he kicked me in the knee from behind and then I broke my lateral ligament and I was playing but I didn't recover and I was 15 days there in the room watching the games with my knee with problems and waiting and then coming back to Spain hard rehabilitation so then I start having problems with my knee all the time it was not a broken crucial ligament but at this time was another one another one in these days it was very hard to fix that injury wasn't it yeah the point is that at this time I was nearly going to Castilla that was the second team of Real Madrid and I say I didn't have the level for playing in Real Madrid but I could play in first, I had an offer from Oviedo that was first division but I said no I will wait because I want to go to Castilla and go to Real Madrid I couldn't, then they send you on loan and then you have an injury again you go on loan, an injury again and then that's it.

13:52I mean obviously that must have been really painful for you as a young man but looking back do you think well okay it made me focus Yeah, I was 26 when I retired, and then I started with the under-16s of Real Madrid. Then I started my career over there. It was Luis Moloni, who was the general manager, and Del Bosque was the coordinator, the academy director, we say in English. And I was learning a lot, and then still with the university. And then I was traveling to Holland, to Italy. So I met Ranieri, I met Rigosaki, Capello, France, even the United States. so I was always trying to get a lot of information and then experience from other people.

14:34You were playing as a Libro when this happened. So was that the normal way of playing in Spain at the time, with a Libro and Marcus? Normally you were playing 4-3-1-2, so the sweeper and the three defenders, and they were doing man-to-man. It's not man-to-man, it was a mix. So imagine the rifle back. I remember Cendo when we were doing the precision with Antic in Udine. he has to follow the winger when he was going inside and then he has a big gap here and Mitchell has to cover the gap and then Mitchell was not defending so Cendo didn't know what to do, I wait here and then the other one going there because they were not doing sonal marking at this time then I remember this one in Udine because Arrigo Saki came to watch the training session and I was the assistant of Antic I was the coach of the under-19s and I was the assistant.

15:24And then we used to play with three at the back and I was a libero, a sweeper and then the midfielders. So I knew the system, but I started doing sonal marking in Real Madrid with the under-17s. So I knew how to play sonal marking and I was following Arrigo Saki. So Arrigo Saki came to have lunch with us and I was talking a little bit of Italian. We were talking about that. And then we were saying, oh, we play sonal marking and in sonal marking you don't have a sweeper. so you have to play four at the back or five or whatever but it's a line it's when a Rio Saki decide instead of playing with a sweeper move a player a little bit higher a line of four and then be more aggressive in the pressing so then the sweeper instead of being behind it was in the same line and was more aggressive That's a fascinating thing that you were a libero your great hero as Franz Beckenbauer was probably the greatest libero there's ever been and yet your tactics as a manager you had no libero No, because Sacchi was doing that, and I used to follow AC Milan.

16:25I used to go to Italy. I was with Ranieri two or three days when he was in Fiorentina. He was great. He was brilliant. It's Claudio, yeah? Yeah, Claudio Ranieri invited me to the dressing room. And you're a real Madrid coach at this stage, are you? Or a youth team coach? I was a young coach, and I was travelling. When we were going to play in Madrid at this time, for example, the under-16s, they were playing three tournaments abroad. so we used to go to France or Holland or especially Italy to play tournaments then you play against AC Milan you play against Torino that was a strong team at this time Juventus so your team your 16 years old players they were playing this tournament and it was a massive experience for them and I used to go and talk with the other coaches how you do this how you do that I was preparing a question and then I was asking them questions so how do you train the technique how do you do the finishing so I was asking and they were watching you this is crazy but that is the way you were watching play I remember one day we played against River Plate and they played with two Liverpools with two sweepers with a line of three with two sweepers so things like that that you are learning from South America you are playing Maturana is a good friend he was the coach of Colombia and after he signed for Valladolid and Atletico Madrid and he beat Argentina 5-0 in Buenos Aires so the way that they were playing with Sonal Marking they were playing with two holding midfielders and normally you play with one and the other one is offensive, but they put two holding midfielders and the way that they defend in the wide areas is totally different.

17:58They play with the magic square that they call in South America. It's a 4-2-2-2. So the players in the middle, the two holding midfielders are defensive midfielders. Two players at front, they have some freedom and the two strikers, they have even more freedom and the fullbacks like Roberto Carlos or Cafu, they go up all the time. so they are very, very offensive. Because you've got the two defensive midfielders. Yeah, and they stay there. So the difference is that they send, I was asking Tassotti, when I went to see AC Milan, Capello was the coach, I was three days, and then I was asking Tassotti, walking from the restaurant to the pitch, I was a young coach, and Tassotti didn't know me, obviously.

18:42I said, oh, when you have a winger 1v1, you close, you leave him wide, or you leave him inside? He was watching me say, always white. But Maturana was doing the opposite. He was leaving inside. Why? Because he has two holding midfielders. They were going against him. So these kind of things for me, I was really exciting and interested. I was learning from everyone, trying to understand if you play like that, you play like that. So we were doing with under-17s in Real Madrid and I was talking with one of my ex-players when he was 16. He said, yeah, yeah, we started. and nobody was doing that at this time in Real Madrid, coping a little bit Arrigo Saki.

19:21I was watching the AC Milan games, taking notes, and when Baresi was doing this, that, boom, okay, now they do this. If they play long, they do that. And after, I was asking Arrigo and I was asking Capello when I was there. So this is, what, 88-ish? So you're in the late 20s? Yeah, I could be. I started going when I was 26. So that is 1986. And I was four years in the under-16. So I'm talking about maybe 1990.

19:59And then there's obviously the famous game when Stacchi's Milan beat Real Madrid 5-0 in April 1989. I will tell you another story about it. AC Milan was training in one side and in the other side Real Madrid and they were asking someone that was there who will you think will win the game? And they said listen to the ball the way that they were kicking the ball boom, boom, boom and Real Madrid was passing so it was a big difference they were really a very professional team they were playing with high intensity all the time that was the difference Was that the confirmation to you, the high press, the zonal marking, that that was the way you had to play?

20:43Yeah, I wanted to play. I was lucky enough, like every coach in Real Madrid Academy, because my team was a better team than the others, the majority of them. You were playing in Madrid, you were winning normally. Atletico Madrid was close and sometimes Raja Vallecano, but you used to win. And then you go and you play against Barcelona, Sevilla, Atletico Bilbao, they have good teams. but still we won the under-19s twice the cup and won the league in three years so we could do it because we had very good players so with very good players you could do what you wanted that is the difference, I want to play like that I remember one of the coaches in the under-14s he told me, oh I will start playing the Sonal game now what do you think, can you come and see me and then tell me something, yeah okay I can go and then I went to see the game and after the game he told me oh how we did it you did fine you won 7-0 they couldn't pass the half line so what is the difference between that and play Sonal or man to man it doesn't matter you are so good so when you have very good players you can decide your tactics because it's very easy I was going to say in Real Madrid at this time though it would be more the tiki-taka style and were you doing something no no no Real Madrid never has been a tiki-taka team until later on, two or three years.

22:03But after, Real Madrid used to be very competitive, I would say very pragmatic, and they could play well because they have very good players. They wouldn't have been playing a Saki-style pressing game. No, no, no. And you would have something different in the youth team than the first team were playing. Yeah, because... You were a bit like a rogue operator at Real Madrid. No, you didn't have... Del Bosque, when I was talking about that, the organisation of the training session is 20 minutes you were doing the warm-up, normally with the ball, 20 minutes on tactics and 20 minutes of football we were training in half pitch sand not full pitch grass so in Madrid we have 14 teams and we have half pitch and sand I was going early so I was telling my players come early so we can train against a wall we're coming half an hour early because they have to go to the school so if you can come early come early so then after we have the pitch at 5 then we started already because we have the warm-up done outside we started already and we finished in one hour and a half and another team was coming so we had to go outside and we were stretching outside so to be sure that we could maximise half of the pitch that we had and we could train in grass once a week normally Thursdays every 15 days one game and if it was raining it was cancelled so we had to play I love this this is the biggest club in the world now it's a massive training ground but at this time They didn't mind you doing something tactically?

23:30You almost experimented tactically with the kids? No, they didn't have this structure. That was Barcelona. When Johan Kriic went to Barcelona, he started with the system. They were playing three at the back, and a diamond, and then the three wingers. So Koeman was in the first team. Koeman with Juan Carlos, or with Xavi Ferrer, or I don't remember the other full-back, Sergi. so they were playing like that and all the teams they have to play like that but then Rijka when Rijka came they played 4-3-3 so they changed the formation to play 4-3-3 and all the teams they have to play like that when we were in charge of the academy at Liverpool we brought Pep Segura and Frank McParlane as academy director Pep Segura was coming from the Barcelona style and with Rodolfo Borrell that was in Manchester City and now he's in MLS so to implement a system a way to train and methodology that will allow us to bring players like Alessandro, who was a young player at this time.

24:32So you have to... I was asking him, why do you play with this system all the teams? Because if you have Messi, no, we have to adapt, fine. But that is the way that they play. And they produce players like Guardiola, Luis Milla, Busquets. Yeah, but when they go outside Barcelona, they need time to adapt and sometimes they are not good enough. He said, I don't care. We are producing players for Barcelona. If they go to another team in Spain and they don't adapt, it's not our problem. We are producing our own style and our own players. It's fine, but he didn't answer if you have Messi, what will you do?

25:12Will you change this? So it's what they had. They have players like Messi that were making the difference. Well, people might not appreciate during this time because you think, well, you're the Real Madrid youth team coach, under-19s, that seems quite prestigious. but I think you were working in a gym part-time as a gym instructor. Maybe this was before you were a teacher, weren't you, with the nuns in a Catholic school? There were different jobs you were having to do to make it pay the way. I have a degree in physical education. So when I was playing, I was a professor or a PE teacher in a public school and after in a Catholic school.

25:48You shocked the nuns, didn't you? Yeah. You surprised the nuns by letting the kids... Yeah, I was on the floor. We were playing dart and then they were killing me, the girls, and then I was on the floor and the boys were around. And she was, what are you doing there? No, they killed me. So I'm here in the middle of it. I know for those teaching stuff. I was three years, I was working as a PE teacher. And then I was one year in a gym with bodybuilders that they could see me. I will tell you another story. I was working and then there was two bodybuilders doing press. No, bench press. They wanted to change the disc and they couldn't.

26:27No, they cannot. But they were not listening to me because they could see my arms and then they were big. He doesn't have any clue. Then they were asking me and said, what can we do? And I was trying, I couldn't. Then I went to the toilet, I put some soap with water and then I put in the bar and then I moved the bar. And I went, oh, they were impressed. And after this day, they were listening to me. but I have a lot of magazines that I was reading about Suacenagel and how they were training and then all these kind of things obviously I was a professor in the school then I was a professor in the gym and after I was technical director and at this time Real Madrid made me professional so when Real Madrid gave me the professional contract then no I continue one year and I have two coordinators one in the morning one in the afternoon I was going to have lunch and training have lunch and then training in the afternoon because for three months I was training in the morning with the reserve team as assistant coach of Garcia Ramon in the afternoon every day I was coaching my team, on Monday I was coaching the reserves of the youth teams and on Saturday I was travelling to watch the opponent of the reserve team or with my team to play so for three months I was every single day coaching training, watching games because I couldn't do I was single and I couldn't do nothing But you did meet your wife in the gym didn't you?

27:58I met my wife in the gym and then after a few months so we started going she didn't know about football she didn't like too much football but little by little she was learning about it I'm not surprised you had to meet her in a gym given you just gave her the time No, no, I didn't have to. I told Del Bosque, I said, Vicente, you have to give me some days off. He gave me a Monday off in the evening. That was the only thing. Well, he's very kind to you then, obviously. But Vincente Del Bosque has been a very important influence in your career, hasn't he? Because I think, is that how you got your first or your early jobs, that he helped recommend you?

28:38No, not really. so this time I was maybe let's say bad if I say that but the most successful young coach in the academy so we were progressing and thanks to Ramon Martinez that was later on the director of football Del Bosque was the coordinator and after they put Ramon Martinez as director of football he told me Camacho was in the under 19s and Camacho has to go as assistant of Di Stefano in the first team and then he told me are you brave enough to take the under-19s. Yeah. And then I took the under-19s and we won two Cups. That was really important and one league. So that was the moment that they promoted me to the Castilla.

29:22Which is the second team. The second team, yeah. But they play in... Second division. Championship. It's like having a championship sign, isn't it? It's not like the reserves in England. People are asking me about the difference and why the Spanish football is so successful. And one of the keys is because at this time, and now they can, but these teams, they could play in the championship. So you could have the best players, Butragueño, Mitchell, playing in the championship against men, and they were 19 years old, 20 years old, and normally we finish sixth and we finish eighth. So it's not that, oh, you were struggling and then you were suffering, because you had quality, you don't have the strength, but you have quality.

30:04And then these players, they were progressing, they were learning, and they were playing, international level and that is one of the reasons Spain is successful because the methodology or the system the coaches are quite good and then you have talent because we play in the streets all the time we used to play in the streets all the time and because this competition the championship or the league one competition for the reserve team is massive because you play against men and then you are learning and learning all the time and you were playing Zonal Marking with Castillo so we started with the under 17 so I was four years with the under-16s, and then they promoted me to the under-17s, 18s, and the 19s, it was sonar marking everywhere, and then pressing.

30:48Is anyone objecting? Like, were the first-team coaches saying, what are you doing? Or was anyone questioning when people come to watch you, go, what is Benitez doing? What kind of madness is this? I was assistant of Radomir Antic when he asked to go to the precision in Udine. And they took me as a fitness coach in theory. But after they signed a fitness coach, I was an assistant. And we were talking about Sonal Marking. The difference is that they were using the Liverpool. And I said, it's not Sonal Marking, proper Sonal Marking. But still, that was the way. And little by little, everybody was doing the same in Spain.

31:22We've just done an episode on Arigio Saki. and we think he's probably the defining force at this time. Was that the moment, was it Saki, was it your own ideas that kind of changed your outlook on football? Do you think that is a defining moment when Saki's AC Milan are showing how zonal markings should be played? Yeah, I think you don't remember exactly the moment, but I was following AC Milan. I liked it, I went to Milanello, so I liked the way that they were playing, the intensity. and I was I was hearing the video when I was watching the video I was hearing when Baresi was shouting and when he put his arm up and I was taking note of every single detail that I could see to be sure that there was something that they were doing always not depending on one moment and after I was asking obviously Arrigo I was asking Capello and then I say Maturana Ranieri so I was going there to Italy to talk with them, to take notes.

32:24I have a lot of... And then the school of coaches in Italy, in Florence, for you, is a cover channel. And I used to go all the time. I was going to the library and then taking some magazines and taking notes, photocopies. I was a friend of a member of the staff and then I was hiding the magazines and taking hundreds of photocopies and then exercises and everything. And I had my own software. So I have my own software. that I was doing a long, long time ago, was before Windows, it was Visual Basic, after it was Windows, and then I was using exercises and then collecting a database of exercises and videos and clips, and I have 1 ,500 videos, VHS, with two or three games each one in the penthouse of my parents, and then I have an access database, and I was checking everything, controlling everything, and I have my own two videos recorded, and then put the over the chest and then was copying from one to the other one, creating the CDs or DVDs and putting the coach when we were going to play.

33:30And my players, oh, a rigor sacco. But they enjoyed because we were winning. So we were winning. And then the people, when they are winning, they say, oh, that is fine. So the software was the database. That was what you're using the software for. For example, we can talk about Istanbul 2005 or the FA Cup with West Ham. I was watching the penalties in every game. Any game that I was watching, it was a penalty I was taking note. So I played in South America, in Spain at this time, you have a lot of oriundos coming. They were taking penalties, and then I was taking notes and putting the database.

34:03So I knew where they were taking the penalties. And that is massive. I don't know if you have taken any penalty in your life, but you don't take penalties. In a team, you have one or two specialists. So the others, they don't take penalties. When you go to the final and you have five, we knew already that four of them were taking the penalty to this side or the other side. So the goal for me is one, two, three, four, five, six. So you are telling your keeper zone six, zone three. So he knows. And then he goes to this side. He died to this side. He has 80 % of chances to save. And this is very innovative at the time.

34:40Of course, now we're used to Jordan Pickford having all the data on his drinks. these kind of things with lots of technicians analysing it. But you're doing this, what, 20, 30 years ago? I was a little bit crazy at this time. A little bit, I think, yeah. Do you think you have to be obsessed with the manager? You think about, I was using the computer, and then my boss at this time, Miguel Malbot, I was before Raúl Martinez, I was a young coach, and they were winning. And then I was using the computer. I was the only one using the computer, doing the report with the computer, with the matricial printer and all these things.

35:14not ink, matricial, that was before. But one day he called me and said, listen, the computer cannot score goals, so why are you using the computer? I said, yeah, it's helping me to manage the information. So I think that it's nothing to do with the way that we play. And we were, at this time, we scored 119 goals and we conceded 18 goals. This is for the Real Madrid Castillo team? Yeah, no, in the youth teams. And he was telling me, oh, you're like, oh why are you using the computer we were top of the league with 10 points ahead with so many goals and still he was hmm you are using the computer so they didn't used to do it and later on obviously everybody was using that I mean penalties it's sort of it's quite easy to record what happens it's the most simple set piece you can have so what other sort of data did you have and how were you able to when I was in the university my last few years we were doing analysis of games so then we used to go as a practice to watch a game.

36:13I remember one of them that they gave me the best, that was Murcia against Castilla when I was in the under-19. So you were going there and you were taking, so a group of people, each one was analyzing something. It's what they do now, but we were doing 20 years ago. Then you have to see, for me, patterns, you see patterns. The right side, the 15 minutes. And after 15 minutes, you change. After 15 minutes, another one. And another one was analyzing the shots and then another one was analyzing the tackles. So then you have a group of students from the university and then after we put everything together and we have the whole game.

36:49So that was the way. And for me I had, what I say, two videos VHS and I was with Claudia, my older daughter, with the bottle. I put the bottle at one in the morning or four in the morning, the second bottle, put the bottle and I have the remote here and the videos are ready. And I was just at that and then collecting the clips that you have to prepare later on. So you were copying from one video. I was telling you the other day, I realized that you have to bring young people, your staff, to be sure that you are updated. Then I have an analyst that is 30 years old now. I said, listen, this thing that we are doing now, with one click and then you have a corner.

37:33It was a time when Benito Floro was the coach of Real Madrid. There was seven video recorders, seven together, coming from the United States. there was an innovation. Then just click corners here, throw-ins here, shots here. So with seven videos all together, naturally there. So I remember this kind of thing. So when people say, oh, technology, we used to do that. And now we are working with the big data and with artificial intelligence. I was asking ChatGPT4 the other day, which are the best players that I was coaching. And he was giving me, obviously, Gerard, Ronaldo. After he gave me David Villa and Mohamed Salah.

38:16He didn't coach them, so Chad GPT, still they have to learn. They are learning, they are great, but still they have to learn a little bit. We hope you're enjoying the show. If you've got any thoughts on this episode or any stories from football history you want us to cover, follow us and leave a message at atitwaspod. That's atitwaspod.

38:40The market's uncertain. Revenue's tight and hiring on hold. That's why results-driven companies are using Upwork to keep work moving. Go to Upwork.com today and start hiring proven freelance talent fast. No bulky overhead. No rigid long-term contracts. Just the right expert right when you need them. Work smarter and faster with Upwork. Go to Upwork.com now and find your freelance expert. That's U-P-W-O-R-K.com. Post a job for free and get started today. A Mochi Moment from Sadie, who writes, I'm not crying, you're crying. This is what I said during my first appointment with my physician at Mochi, because I didn't have to convince him I needed a GLP-1.

39:23He understood, and I felt supported, not judged. I came for the weight loss and stayed for the empathy. Thanks, Sadie. I'm Myra Ameth, founder of Mochi Health. To find your Mochi Moment, visit joinmochi.com. Sadie is a Mochi member compensated for her story

39:44Hi, it's Gary Neville here Join me and the team every week on Stick to Football Semi-final Villa Park Sent off for a stamp on Gareth Southgate Yeah, and he deserved it You've never cooked a chicken? No, I've never cooked anything Oh my God So I've changed it over to X Factor I've hit the remote, so he's come back in and he's few with Croissant What are you going? Croissant Cross-ons. Cross-ons? Are they games with a C? Three most overrated things in life. Parties. Smiling. And fireworks. I feel like everyone got a lot off the chest there. Catch Stick to Football every week, wherever you get your podcasts.

40:26In terms of the actual drills you're using, the training sessions, for getting shape right and things like that, did they change much over your career or was what you were doing with Realm did you seem similar to what you were using? No, I had a conversation with my fitness coach the other day with Paco. So I have my own software. My software has a database of players, your team, the opponents, and the exercises and training sessions. So what we do is we link everything and then we have the exercises with the videos and then your own training sessions or another video that you can see. And everything is in the database and then you have Power BI that we put everything together.

41:08So we have seen that we have around 400 exercises in the database now. You can have maybe 1 ,000 if you want, but the reality is that these around 400 exercises, you are using around 20 % of them. The others, you don't use them too much. And using more than seven times, it's just this 20%. Why? Why? Because they are the most important exercises. So you can talk about modern football, this or that, but running behind defenders, 1v1, wall passes, press when you give the ball away, these are the principles. That's it. And you repeat and repeat. You can change the name, but you repeat and you can say counter-pressing.

41:54We were pressing when we were attacking, giving the ball away, we were pressing and regaining the ball. So when I was in Liverpool, we were talking about five, six passes and we have to regain the ball. So these kind of things, you have been doing that for years. Now they are changing. The main change has been the rule when you play. In the past, you could play with the keeper. He could catch the ball with the hands. Changed a lot. But now in the modern football, when you play in the box, the goal kicks, you play short. And in the past, you couldn't be in the box. So what means that? Teams are now doing that.

42:29And the other teams are pressing. So we did the analysis of the Euros with the UEFA the other day, and then I have to do a talk about middle block, and we were talking about high pressing. So you regain the ball around 46 % of the time when you press high, 29 % when you have a middle block. Then you can say, oh, that is much better. Why? Because the teams are playing short, and then they allow you to go and press high. But when you press high, you can see, and then the example is Bayern Leverkusen against Atalanta, in the final of the Europa League. The teams are doing more man-to-man. So why?

43:06Because they want to press high. And if you want to press high, they have an extra player that is the keeper. So you need an extra player to press high. That means that you're taking a risk in defence. You play three against three, four against four. Watching some games yesterday, you could see that all the time. So that's changed a lot because the teams, to do a proper pressing, if they don't have the trigger and they don't work on how to move the team, they have to go man-to-man. And then they are more aggressive, man-to-man. And Atalanta is an example against Leverkusen. Leverkusen wanted to play.

43:39Xavi, I know because a friend of mine was watching some training session. No, keep playing. He's telling them, keep playing. And then the others are on top, very aggressive, physically very strong. What means that? It means that they realise now that if you play short, they will come and they will press. So you play short and then you play long. and then we have seen a lot of games that you have the winger against the fullback 1v1 or the centre-back against the striker 1v1 change the style but it's more long balls and second balls than before because everybody wants to play short they go press and when they play short you lose around 57 % of the balls and you concede 2 % of the goals and they create 10 % of chances that is a study that we were doing at this time so you can give numbers and people talk about numbers but they have to analyse the game and the principles of the games are the same so you need people running in behind you need superiority in the wide areas people that can play 1v1 2v1 if you are not great you need help 2v1 and defending is the same they forget about now defending because it's not more than play and they want to attack but who is winning the trophies the same teams the team with better players because it's man to man the best players they will win you don't need as a coach you don't need to do anything if you see a corner we can talk about Sonal Marking in corners if you see a corner in the past a free header and what the camera is doing they follow the player the defender oh he made a mistake he lost his man if it's Sonal Marking they go to the coach oh you know Sonal Marking is the manager but it's exactly the same it's a mistake because you are not doing the principles right so you cannot be blocked or if it's Sonal Marking yesterday I was watching one of the goals, you have to attack the ball and you have to be in movement.

45:29Then it's not that the Sonnenmarking is right or wrong, it's that the players are not doing right what they have to do. Rafa, you've brought us right up to the modern day, but I want to take you back again 30 years, OK? Because you're doing really well at Real Madrid and you're winning these competitions and you get your first break in management at Baladolid and then at Osasuna and they both are real failures. You get sacked very quickly. Do you think at this stage I'm still going to be a coach? No, not really. It's very difficult. We will need maybe another programme to explain that. It was the time that they did the Spanish League 22 teams.

46:07And that is a massive difference. So at this time, Sevilla and Celta, they didn't pay. And they were relegated. Financial issues. So I left Castilla and I went to Valladolid in second division. championship so you're preparing for a championship season I signed four or five of my young players from Castilla and we have a young team good team in the championship so I was relegated and with Albacete and we were in the championship and the 15th of August I was having a nap in San Rafael that is in Segovia quite warm and we have a training session in the afternoon and the league was starting the 2nd of September at this time so the 15th of August, the TV was down waiting in the hotel.

46:59Listen, you are in first division again. What? So this is very Spanish to leave things to the last minute, isn't it? No, it's because it was riots and the fans of Celta, De Vigo and Sevilla they were in the street, blah, blah, blah, and the government panicked. And the government said, okay, Albacete and Valladolid, they were promoted instead of them, and now we have to bring these two and the league was 22 teams instead of 20 so I understand that but even so did it not dent your confidence that you no I was fired you won two in 23 I think didn't you in that yeah no that was he was a very very young team in the first division and okay we played well but if your first job if your first job goes badly first job outside Real Madrid they was protecting you the team was playing well but a lot of young players and okay we couldn't win too many games but fine we did well but I was fine and then I went to Osasuna the problem with Osasuna is that I was three teams promoted normally and then when I was there one week before I'm telling you one week Monday we have a dinner and the board we started on Sunday oh we have to do something we have to sign players why?

48:12because they will change the rules to be sure that they reduce the 22 to 20 instead of 3 next year they will promote just 2 so we have to promote this year yeah but we have a team with academy players and they came to England and they signed Freitas the Freitas that was playing for Fulham and Pollock Jamie Pollock was playing for Manchester City that was on Thursday and we were starting the league on Sunday so it was very difficult then and again they fired me because he was a young coach without experience and then my agent at this time he told me it will be very difficult for you he said listen I will succeed so don't be worried I will continue where did that confidence come from?

48:53because I knew my level so I was working so much you said before that I was a little bit crazy yes I was always football and then until I met Monce but my target was football and learn and be sure that I was winning every competition everything so I was thinking about that and I had so much confidence that I could do it then I was waiting and then I went to Extremadura that was a small team that was relegated and then we promoted and that was a really achievement because the team was not great and then we promoted and that was a difficult thing because after, obviously, it's a very, very small city and then you cannot keep the level.

49:33And are people starting to take note of the fact that you're playing Zonal Marking? Are other coaches in Spain playing Zonal Marking or are you unique? No, when I started, there were not too many and after little by little, yeah, they were playing. Ligio, for example, that you have Ligio as assistant of Guardiola is the little one that is down close to him. he was coaching Salamanca he was not like us but they were more or less they started with the Sonal marking already yeah but I mean were journalists were the TV programmes were they saying Benitez is doing something unusual and different here yeah but at this time everybody was talking about AC Milan and then they could see that but nobody was paying too much attention to Castilla that was a second division team and then they were watching more you are a journalist so you know they don't see they don't analyse and especially in England tactically.

50:20In Spain they were also watching, oh, Michel, oh, Butregueño, so they could see players more than just the system and how you do that. And you get Tenerife promoted again after Extremadura, so now you are beginning to appear, I guess, in the mainstream of Spanish clubs that are noticing you. And how does the Valencia job come about? Because that still seems like a big jump. Tenerife was a really nice season because we played very good football. We had missed on loan from Valencia. Luis Garcia was there. So we had two or three good players. Dani was playing on the right. That was ex-Atletico Madrid.

50:55We played very, very good football with a lot of crosses, overlaps. And then people were enjoying watching us. But that was the most difficult championship ever in Spain because you have Betis, Sevilla and Atletico Madrid. So we have to fight against them. And it will be too long to explain how because we have a problem with the passport of our striker. And it's still, okay, we promoted. And as you say, teams were watching you. And then Valencia was trying to sign a coach and they couldn't and another coach and they couldn't. And they told me in a plane, the chief executive was talking with someone, listen, there is a coach in Tenerife that was in Madrid, blah, blah, blah.

51:39Then he was talking with a couple of directors in Madrid and also one in Extremadura. And they were telling him, oh, he's a great coach. And then he was talking with the director of football, Javier Subirac, that we beat them with Real Madrid in the Trofeo Califas in Córdoba when he was coaching Valencia in their 19s. We beat him with the Real Madrid and we won the trophy and we were really good. My team at this time, we won the double. It was a very, very good team. So we played nice football. We scored a lot of goals. We didn't concede. We played Sonal Marking, very aggressive. And then we played against them.

52:14So he remembered me. and then when they had two or three people talking well then they came But you were the third or fourth choice were you? Yeah, yeah, no I was a young coach and they were thinking about big names Big names It's Valencia it's a big club maybe the third fourth biggest club Yeah, it was at this time Villarreal, Deportivo obviously Atletico Madrid Madrid and Barcelona but maybe they were fourth or fifth at this time and then the point is that they came for me and when they were asking me my agent asking me about my salary he said listen I don't care about the salary so they gave me a small salary and then it was fine I see this quote when you got the job here so you can tell me if this is correct you said at your first press conference because Valencia had just been in two Champions League finals when you took Hector Cooper's team so it's a big job and they're a big team and you said you come from the Champions League final I come from La Segunda, the second division but humbly I have tools to help you where is that confidence?

53:13you don't remember that quote? No, I don't think that I said that. Yeah. No. What I am telling you, and you will like this one, you know my surname is Benitez, obviously. But you don't know. There was a very, very famous bullfighter in Spain that was Benitez El Cordobés from Córdoba. His son later on was a famous bullfighter, but he was really famous. He was very famous because he was very brave. When the bull is coming outside, that is when he has full power, it's really dangerous. And he was on his knees waiting, and the bull was coming, and then... So he was famous because he was very close to the bull.

53:48So anyway, he was a very, very famous bullfighter. Then Valencia has seven members of the bull, three of the opposition in the bull. And then one of them said, oh, we are signing a bullfighter or a coach. He said that. This director, he was close to me in the picture when we won the league. He was close to me with the cup, with the La Liga. You really didn't know who you were when you got there. It was just because it was the opposition. So they were fighting each other, no? And he was with the former president and said, oh, we signed a bullfighter. Everyone wants to be in the pictures when you want to come.

54:25Yeah, no one wants to be. That's the truth. But again, I think this is true also at Liverpool. You don't start particularly well. I think there's a moment in 2001 when you're 2-0 down at Espanyol. No, that's wrong. Is that wrong, yeah? Yeah, it's wrong because it's true that they say, oh, again, it's Espanyol, you could be fired, But I think we have 13 games and we won six and we do seven. So we were unbeaten, but the Valencia fans, they pushed and they wanted to be there. So you're 2-0 down against Espanyol, though. That is true, yeah? That's correct. That is perfect. And everyone's saying you're going to be sacked.

55:00Or the papers. No, I didn't. No, I made the substitutions at halftime and we won two, three. My assistant said that he was in the stands with the directors and they disappeared. so everybody disappeared and he was on his own and then they said oh yeah maybe they will fire you but okay we won and that's it and we won because we made the substitutions and then everything changed and you won La Liga that season in January in January we were seven points behind Real Madrid and I told Canizares Ayala Pellegrino the senior players I said listen we will win the league and they were thinking it's crazy yeah because it's crazy though?

55:40No, because I knew the way that they were training, they were working and they have Roberto Carlos, Figo, Raul top, top players This is Real Madrid, a coach? Real Madrid, Ronaldo, the other one but we were a team we were very compact, very aggressive, very competitive we were doing the rotation so I could change players and we keep the level very high so I was confident that we could compete so I'd say to win the league to give them more confidence but we finished I think seven points ahead of Real Madrid so it's not that we were not doing he made a 15 point margin yeah yeah we were pushing and pushing and we were the team was very solid very competitive we lost from the team that won play the final we lost Mendieta the second day he went to Lazio and then Piojo López at the front he was the main player with his pace but then we brought Mista that was top scorer coming from Tenerife with me so we had some Curro Torres that was another player on loan he was coming with me players that they didn't have the level that they were very hard workers and some of them with the quality Vicente that played for Brighton Vicente was really really good at this time with Kili then we have Ayala Pellegrino Jukic Carboni afterwards Fabio Aurelio that came with me for Liverpool a good team Ruffete Angulo so I could change players in the middle Abel Davaraja Marchana you could change players and you didn't have any issue any problem because they they give you the level even Sissoko that signed for Liverpool we signed him he was coming from Oseo for the precision because it was the compromise of the director of football he said you have to bring this young player as a striker and we put him as a striker he was not a striker if you remember Sissoko in Liverpool then we made the substitution it was a friendly in Switzerland we made the substitutions and then we have an injury and then we have 11 substitutions and then it was a friendly okay the young lad come on play as a midfielder and we put him as a midfielder and he was amazing he was amazing and then after he made that career as a midfielder So the shape is what 4-4-2 at this point?

57:47I used to play 4-2-3-1 with Aymar behind Mista or John Kerry when I have John Kerry so Aymar behind and then Rufete Angulo on the right and Vicente O 'Killy on the left and in the middle was Albelda Baraja Baraja was senior and then he came back after January and then he scored seven goals and then it was a crucial play because it was a 4-2-3-1 but Aimar was a light weight player with quality moving around and Baraja was getting into the box. Baraja was Gerard, Lampard style, getting into the box. Not as quick, but he was very good with the timing. And then it was 4-2-3-1 with overlapping of the full bags and keeping the balance.

58:27But those principles of keeping it compact? Yeah, short, narrow and very aggressive. So for example, when I came to England and we had our way to press and when you have to press. And normally you press against a full back. Why? Because it's in the wide areas. You press in the middle, they can play to the right, they can play to the left. But if it's on the right or on the left, then they only have one option, it's to go inside. So when you, or parallel, obviously, no? When you go there, that is the trigger. If it's a long pass or it's all bouncing, it's a bad pass, bad control, thing like that.

59:04But when you came to England, when we just arrived with Liverpool, we're going to press. And then they were passing the ball to the keeper and the keeper was kicking the ball to the other box. So then you have to go back when you play against the ball at this time. So you have to adapt at the beginning. That is the reason why people, they don't realise when you go to another country with another style of football. And then you start signing players that after they don't understand the way. So you have to learn little by little and then you will make less mistakes. The teams in Spain wouldn't go back to the keeper to play along ever?

59:41That was just not something they ever... Not normally. Not too much. Not too much. At this time. At this time, yeah. What have Real Madrid said? What have Barcelona said? I mean, it's really unheard of in this modern era to challenge that duopoly. I know Atleti have done it a couple of times recently, but I think you're the last team to do it consistently. I mean the Real Madrid side is they've got Casillas, Zidane, Fico, Roberto Carlos Raúl, I know they're doing well in the Champions League but they're not winning La Liga and Barcelona have Klaivert and Overmars and you're coming along with all these players who we now know are brilliant players but weren't names like that and you're winning La Liga Because we were a team, is what I say so we have the belief the way that we were training we were controlling the physical data we have very good control with Paco Yesterano at this time.

1:00:28Ocho Torrena. Paco is your fitness coach, isn't he? That was my fitness coach and afterwards my assistant in Liverpool. Ocho Torrena, that was my teammate when we were in the academy of Real Madrid. He was the goalkeeping coach and with the national team he won the World Cup with Spain and the Euros. So then we have good staff, good players, good young players because of what I say. So people, we talk about Ayala, that was good, Pellegrino, Ojukic, Carboni, but Fabio Aurelio was after an addition. It was really good. Vicente was very, very good. And then Rufet. So people, they were hard workers and they follow instructions and they were believing because the way that I like to coach is to teach them, not just to tell them what they have to do.

1:01:10It's just to make them think. So they were thinking, we have to do this because this, because that. And then they were learning. And then we play against Real Madrid, for example. Against Real Madrid, what you have to do at this time? Go behind Roberto Carlos. Why? Because Roberto Carlos was so offensive and he was going forward all the time. So you have to create your game plan is, OK, he will come. You have to cover here. And if we regain the ball, we have to attack this space behind Roberto Carlos. So in this period, do you think, in your mind, you think the team will always beat the Galacticos?

1:01:41So Real Madrid are a team of individuals, really, aren't they? I know your great mentor del Bosco is coaching them, but really it's let's rely on individuals. And you're showing Spain something different, or actually the team can beat these Galacticos. Yeah, we were using the rotation that was not very common. Not very common, yeah. Even losing games in the final, but it's a long-term plan. So we have to manage the players because we're playing Champions League or UEFA Cup at this time. And then it's too demanding on South American players that they were going and coming back. So they have to understand that we needed to rotate, and they did it.

1:02:19And we have high intensity, so we keep all the players physically fit. Tactically, we knew how to play our game and how to damage the other teams because we knew, OK, they do that, we can do this, that, that. Without changing too much our way to play, but we could add that to different teams. We could play deep, we could play three quarters or we could press very high. We play against Celtic in the UEFA Cup and we have the defensive life of 52 metres. That is half of the pitch. And against Ajax, also we have 52 metres. So on the halfway line, your back four is... The average. The average. So actually they're pushing into the opposition half-back.

1:02:59Yeah, we were there and we had maybe 35 attempts. So we could do that. And at the same time, we could be deep, waiting, and then running behind. Or normally, like at three quarters, stay there. How many teams are high pressing like that, do you think, in this area? Did you notice any... In Spain or in Europe? In Europe, yeah. Yeah, you can go to AC Milan or some of these teams, maybe Bayern. So the teams that were much better than the others, they could press high because they have plenty of possession, like it's happening now. But the way that we were doing, not too many. And obviously, after, it's like me, I was watching Arrigo Saki, and then Joe, I will try to do this or that.

1:03:40They were copying the Valencia style. So we won the league after 31 years without winning. but losing players like I say Mendieta that was a very important player for Valencia or Piojo Lopez so we were changing players bringing players without so we have players coming from the academy I remember and I will not say the name but there was an average player that was a right fullback and we put him as a left fullback even and we were winning so the last game that we played against in Sevilla I played Chisco Chisco was the coach of Watford he was playing there and he was not the starter. So Vicente was the starter and you could play Cisco, you could play anyone and the team was performing because it was a team.

1:04:23The point you made a little while ago about not just telling them what to do but teaching them how to think. So you're sort of, the idea is you get the mindset in the players correct so that when the situation occurs they make the right decisions. So I said before that I was a PE teacher and then when you study methodology you can say you give orders and they follow orders or you can hate you can tell them listen you can do this come on start doing then you give them a task and they start doing whatever or you are asking questions okay we can do that and they are doing this imagine that oh they are overlapping and they have two players okay tell me what you can you do uh we have to do this yeah but if you do this maybe will happen so you're giving them some clues or you are giving asking questions and after you go to the video so after you go to look this that that can ah but then you go to the pitch then you practice on the pitch and again you go to the video so when you repeat and repeat all these kind of things no then at the end they they understand and the difference is also that we were working with the team and the players that they were not playing normally when you play two competitions two games a week the substitutes they don't they don't practice so sometimes you run after the game in the stadium but it's not the same so we used to train these players and with the rotation system everybody has training sessions before and after that they are light training sessions doing the same things so everybody knew exactly what they have to do and also because were doing tactical runs that they were together, they knew what the teammate has to do.

1:06:12So it's not that you change a player, oh, I don't know what I have to do in this position. So they were learning and I was asking questions. So if they do this, what can we do? So I think Cara in one of your podcasts was talking about that. I was asking, we can play at home. Can we play deep? Can we play high? Normally it's, oh, we are much better, high. The other team is much better. Okay, drop off a little bit, be protected. it's fine three quarters so you are making the players think about that and then they follow the plan and are there some players who need to be told what to do who can't sort of you have 25 players in a squad you have 11 players on the pitch some of them they're ones that they make the difference they understand the game and they know so normally these are the players that you use to pass the message so oh they are attacking we have to control this so you are telling them and they pass the message That's what I say.

1:07:07When I was a player, I was a talker. So you always have someone, normally it's a midfielder, normally it's a centre-back, because they have the vision of the full pitch. They can pass the message. So then you are telling them if you need to adapt something. Obviously, you told me before, you were telling me, when you are at the top, in the stands, you can see with a tactical view, when you are on the bench, sometimes the bench in Spain, they were at the level of the grass. So you can see legs, then you have to understand how to read the game from this position but you are on the pitch a lot of players they play but they don't understand what is going on around so you have to give them tools to learn and to be sure that if something is happening and you make an order they know oh they know because they have the talent and they decide on their own And is it the players who are best at that who tend to become the best managers afterwards?

1:08:03Yes and no yes because they have the tools to understand and then they can pass the measures so for instance was Xabi Alonso really good at that Xabi is an example of Mascherano he's a holding midfielder so they understand what is going on and obviously they have had a lot of good managers in their careers and then they know but after there are so many things around that it's not just to know you can be great as a player and maybe you were so good that you didn't need to think too much because it was natural for you or you are someone that analyses things but after you cannot manage the press or you cannot manage the press, the fans or even the players.

1:08:44One of the problems is that if the players are very good, very famous and the fans, the press, the directors, they love them. If they are good professionals, you have a winning and competitive team. If they are not good professionals, You have a very good players and it depends on them that you can win or not. You have a problem. So in your story, you win La Liga in 2002, you win it in 2004 again. This is extraordinary in Spain. And you win the UEFA Cup that year. And now everybody is noticing in Europe because this is when Liverpool start to approach it. I have four offers at this time, four teams.

1:09:24And one of them was obviously Liverpool and was quite serious. So then the way that they approached... Was there another English side, I believe, at that time? Yeah, it was another one. Was it Tottenham? I didn't say you were. It's not important at this time. It's not important. We are talking about a long time ago, but there was the six-taps Inter, Tottenham and Liverpool. But when I say offers interest and then they were talking with my agent and that's it. But the most serious for me and the most exciting was Liverpool. I was studying French in the school, but learning English with the Beatles.

1:09:56So with the LP red and blue and then things like that. and the history and is that because of the 1970s and the 80s obviously every European kid who's obsessed with football when Liverpool beat Real Madrid 1-0 the keeper was Agustin that was my keeper when I was a player and it was the Real Madrid of the Garcias García Cortés García Pere García García Ramón and it was García Navajas and it was García Hernández they have five Garcias it was the Real Madrid of Garcias with El Bosque and that and Real Madrid beat them 1-0, I was watching that. So I was watching Liverpool and then the pass and move.

1:10:37So you have this, and I came to England, part of my journey when I was learning, I came to England. When Ardiles was in Tottenham, I was watching them training, the first team and also the reserve team. And I went to watch also West Ham. And I will say that, but also one week, Manchester United. So I was coming to England, I was going to Italy, so I was trying to learn from everyone a little bit. Thank you for listening to part one of our special episode featuring Rafa Benitez on It Was What It Was. We hope you'll join us next time for the second and final part where Rafa shares how he transformed football at Liverpool, leading the club for historic Champions League and FA Cup victories.

1:11:28and help others find it too. See you next time.