Lampard To Stay Or Leave? Leicester Downfall & Rooney EFL Experience | Fan Debate EFL Special Part 2

0:0048 million people in the United States are adolescents between the ages of 14 and 24. They're working, parenting, leading, sometimes all at once. I'm balancing work and being a mom at the same time. And I'm still on track to graduate with my bachelor's next year. So what do today's young people need to truly thrive? Tune in to good things from Lemonada Media to hear the six-part Thrive series. Immersing yourself in all things soccer ahead of this summer's World Cup? I'm Alex Abnos, senior sports editor from The Guardian. Whether you're a soccer beginner or you know the game inside and out, we've got you covered.

0:40From one of the fastest growing soccer newsrooms, The Guardian brings you in-depth World Cup coverage that gets into the winners and losers on and off the pitch. Read, watch, and listen as our journalists connect the dots between the games, the cultures, and this political moment. We'll have daily newsletters throughout the tournament, a global perspective, and a squad of Americans, including me, on the ground with the U.S. national team. Plus, if you want to test your soccer knowledge, try On The Ball. It's a game in the Guardian app, and it's really, really fun. And if you're into stuff like this...

1:09Well, I think the problem is, if you give footballers an inch, they will take a mile. Is it too much when it's this close? It's a bit much. It's a bit too real. Maybe you could just talk with a slight delay. Be sure to listen to our Football Weekly podcast for on-the-move expert analysis. The Guardian, bringing you the whole picture on soccer. Search Guardian Soccer for more. Make Mother's Day even more special at Whole Foods Market. Kick off brunch or dinner with quality cheese and charcuterie with no synthetic nitrates. Then go seafood. There's an abundance on sale at Whole Foods Market, where it's all sustainable while caught or responsibly farmed.

1:44At the bakery, grab seasonal treats like their strawberry pretzel cream pie. and you can't go wrong with a ready-to-heat quiche Lorraine, deviled eggs, and fresh-cut fruits to go. Celebrate mom with Whole Foods Market. There's never been a better time to get outside and experience the benefits of nature. Discover nearby trails and explore the outdoors with AllTrails. Download the free app today and find your outside. Last time I was on the show, I was telling Carragher how badly we were run. I think we're the worst-run football club in the country, it's an embarrassment. I hated every minute of it.

2:22It was solid. It was as hard as it can be. I'm sure you'll agree with that. It was a big gamble for Frank to go in there. If it didn't pay off with Conncy, that could have quite easily been the end of its coaching careers. I'm hopeful to stay at least for one more season. Romney's story is a genuine fairytale story. You can't script that. Finishing the season, 29 games unbeaten. It's one of the most incredible promotion campaigns I can remember. There's a lot of clubs in League Two now just treading water. Some of these clubs are blocking the pathway for everyone else, especially when there's four going up out of League Two into League One.

2:48To finish on that many points and not be guaranteed promotion is scandalous really. I don't think everyone's mimicking Arsenal, but why is it that the teams who are super effective from dead ball situations have gone to the top of each of the EFL leagues this season? Arsenal going on to win the league, they've made it more fashionable to do that. Man United won the Champions League in 1999 for a set piece. There's your headline anyway, Cardiff for the new PS3. He's one of the most unbelievable coaches I've ever had. You've obviously heard him talk, he's super quick, you've got to take your time to understand them a little bit.

3:18So you? Talking about me, yeah.

3:25Hello and welcome to the Fan Debate brought to you by Skybet. Pleased to be joined again this week by Wayne Rooney, Connor Cody and Paul Mullin. We're taking a broader look across the EFL this week and we've got a fresh fan line-up to speak to. How are we? Very good. Oh, come on. Lift it. Get it lifted. It's football. It's playoffs. CFL, come on. We're also joined by Ali Maxwell from the Not The Top 20 podcast and content creator, Callum Fowler. It's great to hear a proper Yorkshire voice on the telly. On telly, on YouTube. Two of you. Yeah, two of you. I've not heard you speak yet, but I mean, yeah.

4:07That looks like watching Kez, doesn't it? Welcome back. Right. How are we, guys? Good? Oh, you got a brew? Just stop. He's got a brew. OK, I know. Any chance? Have I got one mate? Seriously, what's going on here? Unbelievable. Big question, broad question to start with. We're just going to go for it. You've all played in the EFL. Our football pyramid is a wonderful thing. What do you think makes the EFL so special? Unpredictable. Yeah. I think Premier League you can almost predict most years to the top four to six. And then you're not too sure what's going on. But with the EFL, I think it's unpredictable.

4:58You don't know who's going to get promoted, who's going to get relegated. There's teams who can surprise you both for how good they are. This season now we've seen Leicester go down. obviously they've had the points deduction but so it's so unpredictable and I think that's the beauty of it that actually makes it a better league to be involved in and watch Can I? Yeah I think a big part of it again it probably illustrates what Wayne's saying is that for me is that anyone you don't expect every season that a certain team's going to win it I think that's a big one when we look at Coventry this year and they've done unbelievably well unbelievably Frank's obviously done an unbelievable job but against that word unpredictability is that like there's always a surprise one week or another someone will beat someone you can beat anybody it doesn't matter if you're playing for well I've been at Charleston you can always beat the top one and you can always come out on your day so I think that's why the league and the football pyramid not just the championship by the way all the way down is so so good we see it now with Bromley we've obviously gone up to league one as well it's unbelievable it's the drama I think of all the NFL games as the wads have said there not knowing what can happen and literally every single week and every single year there's drama to games and I think the decisions being without VAR and things like that, I think that's what makes it special as well.

6:19Just going back on Leicester there, I had someone say the other day, Leicester winning the Premier League was like winning the Grand National on a cat. On a cat? Which I thought was... Yeah, I mean... Wayne, when you When you dropped down to play in the Championship, how did you find it as a player? Did you almost find it harder in some respects because you're doing things that... You're on a different wavelength basically? No. OK, sorry. I went down to play for Derby. Obviously I'd been out in the States and so I knew I was coming into Derby and almost straight away I knew I was going to play in midfield so I couldn't play till the January so I went in, I finished with DC in October and I went in to Derby two weeks later and was training to keep myself fit before the January and Derby were near the bottom of the table at the time, I come in and we started winning games and I really enjoyed it.

7:34I loved playing the Championship and I've always enjoyed playing Saturday, Tuesday, Saturday, Tuesday and I know people complain and managers complain about that. For me, I prefer to play every few days. I love that, you just wanted to play though, didn't you? You had everyone complain about, not complaining but it's so tough you've got to play Saturday. It was better for me. I just prefer the... I love playing games and I'd rather play than train. I'd rather play three games in a week than play Saturday, Saturday and train in a week. I just enjoyed the games more. Conor, you start your early career, you played in the AFL quite a bit.

8:11How do you see it now in terms of the... I know football has changed obviously, but how do you see the standard of it now when you first started out? I think it's through the roof, to be honest. I think it's through the roof, yeah. again watch them years when Wayne dropped down to it Wayne Rooney's playing in the championship do you know I mean I'm not just saying it because he's here he was it's an unbelievable thing and then we mentioned then about when we speak about the teams now who we see in League One we mentioned next year we tend Premier League team former Premier League teams in League One it's it's scary the quality that you see in the football pyramid in this country it's unbelievable really and it gets better year on year and we're going to see it again next year with the Premier League team dropping down to the championship some real real high level football teams with Wolves, Burnley and obviously one of we don't know who it is yet West Ham Tottenham so it's just getting better and better but you go back to them few years that Wayne was there and you see these players dropping into the championship it's remarkable that you're seeing that from when I first started with it definitely Paul what was the biggest jump that you saw or experienced from National League into the Football League what was it I think the difference as you go up the levels is just consistency I think if you get a player down to the division can have a 10 out of 10 game and if they could produce that every week then they'd be top end championship players.

9:26But I think the higher you go up the divisions just the more consistently players can give the best performances and then I think that's even, again, the Premier League with obviously a lot more added to that than just a bit of consistency. But yeah, I think that's the biggest difference through every division is just consistency from teams and players and individuals. Wayne, just quickly on that in terms of management, did you find that a frustration that... I'll tell Merce about this, Paul Merson and when he was a Walsall manager he got very frustrated because top level players you tell them once and they got the message and he found it was difficult to keep repeating and telling them and found that quite frustrating.

10:07What was your experience? No I get asked this quite a lot and I'm not expecting like when all the teams I've coached I'm not expecting them to be able to do what I could do or what top end players could do but what you do expect them to be able to do is a 10 yard pass and I think that was the biggest difference for me is you know you do a passing drill and it's a 10 yard pass which you know you have 10 year olds who can do a 10 yard pass with consistency and it's just a concentration level it becomes too easy for them that they they almost feel like they shouldn't do it and if you get the basics of the game right then everything else will fall into shooting and then the concentration goes, the focus goes, then the passenger will end up like a pilot ship basically.

10:57And then that's what you used to get through Stater with. The more difficult things you're not expecting them to be able to do but the things they can do, that's what you want players to really make sure you do it right because when it comes into the game it becomes part of your muscle memory and you do it right. You don't get sloppy with it and you don't think, oh, the game's won and we'll just mess around. You continue to do it and I think that's a big difference from Premier League to the teams in the EFL. OK. Callum, my question for you is, top five players in the Championship this season that you think it says they could easily play in the Premier League?

11:37Easily? Easily. How about that? Can you count loans? Can I have Rushworth? Yeah, I do what you want. Alright, thanks. We'll have Rushworth then. Yeah, Rushworth at Cov. I think he's class. I'd be surprised if Brighton let him go, really. But I think Covington needs to try and get him if they go up. Acne's a tapping and he's class. I think Morris as well at Middlesbrough. Kramer at Millwall. Southampton have got loads. Like your Alwood Bellis and stuff. We've got more than five there. Rushworth, Sienza, Kramer, Acne, Morris. Connor Cody I'm going to throw that up Connor Cody You asking us that as well?

12:15To add to it? Yeah, you don't have to give us five but maybe a couple of you think I think a lot of Southampton's team are ready to play in the Premier League personally I think they're probably the team in the division just as much as Coventry who are ready for it and I think if they've had a better start I think they'd have been in the top two personally So I think a lot of them, could we say Fatou at Leicester? I know Leicester have gone down, I know he's had a bad second half of the season, but I played with Abdul and he's a very, very good player on his day. And I know he was linked with certain clubs kind of previously, so I'd probably put him into that bracket as well.

12:51OK. I think obviously I'm surely watching a lot of Wrexham's games this year. I think Callum Doyle is obviously a young lad, but he's fantastic. I think he's got everything to be a brilliant Premier League centre-half and I think at some point his chance will come to go and do that, whether it's this summer or in the near future. I think he has got everything of what it takes to play in the Premier League. I think Finn Aziz, I think he's a player I've liked. I only became aware of him when we play it. And he's a player I've watched and I really like. He's a really intelligent football player and I think to go and play in the Premier League, you need that intelligence to be able to find space, to take the ball and be a match winner.

13:36I think he's the one player, I think, who's more suited to the Premier League.

13:46Immersing yourself in all things soccer ahead of this summer's World Cup? I'm Alex Abnos, Senior Sports Editor from The Guardian. Whether you're a soccer beginner or you know the game inside and out, we've got you covered. From one of the fastest-growing soccer newsrooms, The Guardian brings you in-depth World Cup coverage that gets into the winners and losers on and off the pitch. Read, watch, and listen as our journalists connect the dots between the games, the cultures, and this political moment. We'll have daily newsletters throughout the tournament, a global perspective, and a squad of Americans, including me, on the ground with the U.S.

14:18national team. Plus, if you want to test your soccer knowledge, try On The Ball. It's a game in the Guardian app, and it's really, really fun. And if you're into stuff like this... Well, I think the problem is if you give footballers an inch, they will take a mile. Is it too much when it's this close? It's a bit much. It's a bit too real. Maybe you could just talk with a slight delay. Be sure to listen to our Football Weekly podcast for on-the-move expert analysis. The Guardian, bringing you the whole picture on soccer. Search Guardian Soccer for more. Make Mother's Day even more special at Whole Foods Market.

14:49Kick off brunch or dinner with quality cheese and charcuterie with no synthetic nitrates. Then go seafood. There's an abundance on sale at Whole Foods Market, where it's all sustainable while caught or responsibly farmed. At the bakery, grab seasonal treats like their strawberry pretzel cream pie, and you can't go wrong with the ready-to-heat quiche Lorraine, deviled eggs, and fresh-cut fruits to go. Celebrate mom with Whole Foods Market. Thank you for calling the Bombas Comfort Line. Bombas make socks, slippers, tees, and underwear made with the highest quality materials. Press 1 for comfort, 2 for style, 3 for donation.

15:24You chose style. Bombas is styles for whatever you enjoy. You can run in Bombas, lounge in Bombas, dress them up, dress them down, but always give back in Bombas. Because with every item purchased, another is donated. Bombas, comfort worth calling for. Go to Bombas.com slash audio and use code audio for 20 % off your first purchase. That's B-O-M-B-A-S dot com and use code audio. I sold my car in Carvana last night. Well, that's cool. No, you don't understand. It went perfectly. Real offer, down to the penny. They're picking it up tomorrow. Nothing went wrong. So, what's the problem? That is the problem.

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16:19Simon, how are you? How are you feeling? Were you out watching Tom Grennan and Super Frank? that we've got on Monday? Yeah, it's been a party that's lasted three, four weeks. It's just been non-stop. I think the entire city of Coventry has had to go into hiding for the next few months and take some time to recover. It's been the most remarkable season. To compete and beat the parachute teams especially, and we've seen that unfair playing field over the last few years. And so to win the league by 11 points is something none of us saw coming, really. Doug King had a thing where he wanted Coventry to get into the playoffs three out of five seasons.

16:56I don't think any of us envisaged the fact we'd go on and win the league in the way we have, but it's been kind of steady progress building this squad, using the Ocaro's money, using the Hamer money, building a squad that is now a squad that's worthy of competing at the top end of the championship and hopefully doing reasonably well in the Premier League next season. Yeah, just compare that to how you're feeling, similar time of year, this time last year. Yeah, well it's been heartbreaking each of the last three seasons coming up to this really because we had the Luton-Fankei-Dabu penalty shootout miss, which could have won that at Wembley.

17:28The Man United semi-final, which potentially should have won that one in the FA Cup VAR decision. And then the Dan Ballard goal, just heartbroken at the end of that because Lampard had come in and done such a good job, taken over from Robins, kind of built on that. And then to make it into the playoffs, and I think we're probably the better team on balance over two legs against Sunderland. But Sunderland in the key moments in the playoffs last year were unbelievable. Scored late in the semi, scored late in the final. and look what they've gone on to do in the Premier League. So the fact the club's been able to kind of rebuild and not have that as too much of a setback and then come back again this year and go and win the league is just, it's unbelievable.

18:04And out of your current squad, who are the players that you think, you know, just going back to what I asked Callum there, in terms of the players who you think won't look out of place in the Premier League on a weekly basis? Yeah, I think we've got a few actually. Rushworth's obviously the obvious one. If we can get him to sign permanently, That's absolutely crucial. Milan Van Ava at the right back is Premier League ready. He's quick enough, got a long throw. Incredible, incredible player. That fits him well with the Premier League these days, doesn't it? You've got to have one of them. I think Bobby Thomas will do reasonably well.

18:35Matt Grimes, captain. Jack Radone's been injured basically all season, playing with a shoulder injury. He would probably be Coventry's best player, if you asked about him. Technically, a wonderful number 10, and Lampard absolutely loves him. And you can see that kind of the way he's worked with him to make him get into goal-scoring positions and score goals. And the one I'm quite excited about is Ephron Mason-Clark. He's started at, I think, Barnett. Ali will know more than me about this. Works his way. Played in every division now. He's been unbelievable this season in terms of his end product, his goals.

19:03He's got the physicality as a winger, which might help us out in the Premier League. And really excited to see how he gets on in the top flight as well. Wayne, what's impressed you most about what Frank Lampard has achieved this season? I think... he he was getting a little bit not loads but he was getting a little bit of stick weren't he and I thought he'd done really well at Everton he was there obviously with him at Everton I thought he'd done really well at Everton then he went to Chelsea and he was getting a little bit of a stick about what happened to Chelsea and I thought that was very unfair and then to go in I think he I think what helped him similar to Michael Carrack actually what helped Carrack and Frank Lampard when he went into Middlesbrough and Coventry was the teams were right at the you know right near the bottom of the table but the quality of them two teams were not they were better than where they were basically so they had a decent team who could pick up points and climb the table but then what Frank's done this season after losing out in the playoffs last season is he's knuckled down and I know how intense Frank is and I think he's changed his coaching staff a little bit from when he was in the Championship last time with Derby and it was a big question, can he go in?

20:27It was a big gamble for Frank, I think to go into the Championship, I don't know I've done it myself and to go in there if it didn't pay off with Covency that could have quite easily been the end of his coaching career so to take that gamble and go in and not only to get playoffs first but then to go on and win the league you've got to give him a huge amount of credit for what he's done and the big question now is, I know you probably won't want to hear it, does he stay at Conte if a job comes up? A steady job which could progress as Kier again. We've seen it with Keane McKenna when there was talk about him going to Chelsea.

21:05And then I think that's a real difficult decision for managers now, managers who are getting promoted. His stock is high, isn't it? Yeah, do you stay loyal to the club you've got promoted with? but then knowing it in six months' time if it's not going well you might get sacked or if you go with your team and I think these are really important decisions for these coaches who get promoted to take So what sort of job do you think would be because I think I'd love them I'd want them to stay at Coventry but I think it's time to build and then but then that's where you hope the owners give them the time like Keenan McEnnis had the time to go up get relegated go back up again and hopefully the Ipsos will be better for that.

21:47Because we've seen it before with, it was, got promoted. Someone got promoted and Russell Martin. He does really well, gets promoted, then gets sacked. So I think you just hope there's a bit of loyalty from the manager and the club as well. From my perspective, I think there's only a couple of jobs I'm worried about. And it's obviously the Chelsea job, the connection there. But he's tried it twice and it's not a great club, I think, for him to go back to. And then if you look at Crystal Palace, I mean, it's a really solid Premier League club. It's in London. They're not going to be in a relegation battle.

22:20It's hard to compete with that. But he does love it here. And you saw with the celebrations, Stella in hand on the bus. He does just absolutely love it. So I know football changes quickly, but I'm hopeful to stay at least for one more season. But I went down to bring a down play. Connor, you were with Frank at Everton. Did you expect him, or we know the story about how Addy worked as a player, obviously massively talented, but obviously worked incredibly hard. Did you see him as someone who was going to go and be a successful manager? I think he's top. I can't speak more highly of him. I'm not surprised he's done what he's done with Coventry.

22:59I think Coventry is a great football club, but I think it was a perfect fit for him. I think, as Wayne said before about him getting a club and building it up, I think he's right. But I think that all comes down to him. His coaching staff are brilliant. The ones he had at Everton, when I was with him at Everton with Joe Edwards who come in and done all the coaching on the grass and Frank done a lot of the tactical work was brilliant and it just worked really well. So I'm certainly not surprised he's done what he's done because I think he's been brilliant to play against his teams and they're tough to play against.

23:26But even playing within his team, he's the sort of man and he's the sort of manager who as a player, and these guys all know as well, you're desperate to do well for him, you want to do well for him. So when he tells you to do something, you want to do it more and more and more to make sure you get the most out of the situation for him because I think he comes across as that type of player and he was certainly that manager for me when I was at Everton. And the other thing with it is, I hope he does stay at Coventry because I think they've now got the perfect manager with a blend of understanding the situation they're going to find themselves in.

23:52We expect Coventry to go and have a tough season in the Premier League. I don't think everyone expects any difference. But he's been in that with Everton. He's experienced that with Everton. He's stayed up with Everton. And then he's been on the other side of it where he's been at Chelsea and done really well with those young players when he first went into Chelsea. So I think they've got an unbelievable coach with a real blend of different ways of doing things. and I think he's perfect with Coventry, really too. Brandon and Thomas Asante is a similar kind of journey to you, making his way through the Leagues.

24:15Do you think he's got what it takes to reach the next level? Yeah, they've given the opportunity, definitely. I think going into the Premier League is obviously a totally different kettle of fish. These two lads have done it, I've never been anywhere near it. So it's hard to say, but yeah, there's no reason why not. You go and express yourself with an opportunity. And it only takes one game to go and obviously give a good performance against the high-class opposition to then get a belief and that belief down can grow within you and you can feel like you can take on anybody. So obviously, why not?

24:47Ali, Wayne touched upon Kieran McKenna there at Ipswich. Done a great job getting him back in. Did you think that they were going to get there in that second spot or did you think they were going to have to battle their way through? Well, pre-season, we predicted them to win the league. So I guess we expected maybe a bit more than what ended up happening. I think from a neutral's point of view it was very exciting that we went into final day and the last few weeks of the season with second spot still up for grabs the last few seasons it feels like automatic promotions being kind of secured a few weeks out deep down I think everyone still expected Ipswich to do it but I think what's really interesting with them is that the last time they went up they were the underdog back-to-back promotions free-flowing football a group of players that had been bought in League One it was an unbelievable story and when they come back down they're the bad guys with the parachute payments and the way that they are looked at by the rest of the league and by opposition fans has changed completely I think that's quite an interesting thing to discuss here because people will maybe say well yeah they should finish second they should go up they've got the parachute payments but you've still got to do it and Leicester got relegated and Salampton sacked off the first half of the season and finished fourth they'll have to go through the playoffs so I still think it's worth pointing out that this is a huge success for Ipswich and if you zoom out over five years they've gone from a League One club in the doldrums that really had so little energy about it to now a really vibrant club of course a lot is tied to Kieran McKenna that's three promotions now in four seasons and I do genuinely believe that they go up in such better shape than they would have done two years ago where coming from League One to the Prem how can you prepare for that from a recruitment point of view playing style point of view they're more pragmatic now they weren't as exciting but still a very, very good team, both at the back and going forward.

26:36So they should be much better suited. Everyone will have a much better idea of how to attack it, I guess, and try and be like Sunderland and Leeds this year and stay up. I think that's a key, really, for Ipswich going up. Last time they went up, obviously from the outside, it looked like they recruited the best players from the Championship last time they were there. I think this time, obviously, with Sunderland and they're already going to give McKenna the chance to obviously recruit a lot more experience and a lot like Sunderland and Leeds have done. and try to keep them in the league that way.

27:05Barnsley's finest, Callum Fowler, are going to come to you. Can you give us a little quick rundown of League One this season, please? What, full thing or who's gone up? Yeah, full Monty. Full thing, yeah. Like we said last week, obviously, the sides that are coming up are so strong. So, ones that are stuck there, like Robham especially, I don't think anybody really expected Robham to go down. They've not been there in like 10 years or whatever it were. But poor recruitment for like one, two seasons is going to get you now because the sides are coming up that are that good. Like we said, there's a lot of sides that expect to be doing a lot more, but again, sides coming down, like maybe some sort of lesser side to an extent in Oxford, they're going to be in a really good spot next year, whereas someone that's a bit bigger, they're going to spend a lot more money like in Huddersfield, they're struggling.

27:47They're sort of struggling to keep up with them teams. Like again, if Plymouth and Luton, I think if season had gone for a little bit longer, them two would have probably got in. But Lincoln have run away with it, Lincoln are really, really good side. Cardiff haven't done a great deal of business either, they've sort of gone back up with the same team they've come down with. But I think Stevenage have got a really good chance running into this in playoffs with some really big sides. OK. One team who has surprised everyone, gaining promotion for the first time in 65 years. They were playing non-league just nine years ago.

28:17Lincoln, incredible, incredible story. 103 points and champions. Ali, can you put into words how unexpected that was and what an achievement it is? Yeah, so it's unexpected because there are probably half a dozen pretty big teams for the level and that's fan base wise, history wise, but it's budget wise as well. And a lot of those teams have underperformed Huddersfield, Callum's mentioned already. So in terms of beating that lot and actually smashing that lot and ending up with 103 points and finishing the season 29 games unbeaten, like it is, it's one of the most incredible promotion campaigns I can remember.

28:56and of course they are underdogs and it is an underdog story but equally what they've done shouldn't be a massive surprise because of how they've operated as a club for quite a few seasons like the beauty of the English pyramid is big clubs big budgets but you can still have success as a smaller club but the way you have to do it is by operating smartly for a number of years and sometimes you can see the clubs that aren't necessarily going all out buying a new team every summer to try and get promotion that season, taking a longer term approach and getting the benefit of having a squad of players that maybe have played with each other for two years.

29:32They understand each other's games a little bit more than when you buy a whole new starting eleven. And that's been the story of Lincoln City from the National League upwards. Incredibly smart people run the club, they understand who they are and they understand as well as any other team I've seen how to punch above their weight by being smarter and more patient than other clubs and getting the benefit of that as a result. And obviously they made an amazing manager hire in Michael Skibala. And, you know, he should get so much credit for what he's done and this team. But I think he'd be the first to say, and, you know, Wayne, who's managed before, we'll probably speak better on this, but like he walked into a structure that was set up to support him, a club that was moving in the right direction, that had the right momentum and people to help him do what he's done so well.

30:17Yeah, he's done incredible. I don't know that, mate. What does that feel like? Yeah, what are your thoughts on Michael Scobal? Should he be like manager of the year, not just for his league, but for the entire EFL, do you think? He's certainly up there, Ian. I think what Link could have done is...

30:40When you're talking about clubs who were trying to achieve and trying to get promotion, and then they gain it too soon. I think we were talking about that last week. Someone getting promoted too soon and then... Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wrexham last week, sorry, if that happened. And as you said, they're linking, having a bit of patience. And when you've got a club who have the structure and the structure's right and recruitment is right and you're not getting carried away with, oh, if we bring this player in or these two players in, we think these will get us promotion. But actually having a bit more patience and saying, right, well, if we can gradually keep adding to it and in three or four years' time, this might get us to the next level.

31:22I think that's key, really, rather than trying to just get everything too soon. I think that's what's happened with Lincoln and him. They're certainly getting the benefits of that now. Do you know much about Michael Skbala in terms of what he's done? I mean, obviously, he can see he's done an incredible job. Apparently big on futsal. He was, yeah, his background is in, like, coaching and even worked in schools as a PE teacher, I think, when he was younger or something similar. And so he's come up through that pathway. And yeah, he coached the England futsal team. So small-sided game, smaller ball, more about technique in small areas.

31:56The interesting thing is his Lincoln side play incredibly direct. They go back to front very, very quickly. They get on second balls. He has got quality technical players, Moylan and Hackett, who play off the wings but come inside, kind of act as number 10s and then generally two up top as well. So he's been very adaptable and that's been key to their success, the way that they play. They've even talked about it like they know that teams change the way they play when Lincoln come to town because of their strengths, particularly aerially and from set pieces. And so in their mind, they've already got a win of some sorts.

32:30If you're changing the way that your team plays because Lincoln are your opposition, that gives you a bit of a swagger about you already.

32:44Talk to us a little bit about Cardiff, the second team to get promotion. Yeah, amazing really. Obviously Cardiff are a big club to drop down into League One, but they circled the drain in the Championship for a good few seasons. Their decision-making at the top of the club has been questionable at best. They've wasted a lot of money, a lot of managers come and go. And when they were relegated, it wasn't a big surprise, but it happened in a way that made me a bit worried. that if they didn't get their act together and if they were complacent, they could get stuck, like Huddersfield, for example.

33:14And they hired Brian Barry Murphy, whose last senior job was with Rochdale, getting relegated from League One about five, six years ago. But obviously in between, he worked at Man City in their under-21s. He worked with Cole Palmer and players like that. So they brought him in, and it's been one of the most amazing things I've seen from a head coach, to be honest. They barely signed anyone. They got rid of about ten big earners from the Championship underperforming players. He got rid of them. Got about five or six academy graduates and said, you're going to be a key part of this team. And none of them had really starred at first team level before.

33:47And then he got buy-in from a few of the senior players that were left behind, like Callum Chambers, Chris Willett, Ryan Wintle. And from the start of the season, they were playing what you'd call like Pep Guardiola type possession football, which in League One and League Two does not always work very well. And they've been brilliant. So, you know, Lincoln were the better side overall. and there was a time where they were head-to-head, about 12 games left of the season, they played each other, Lincoln won, no doubt they were the better side, but what Barry Murphy's done at Cardiff was unbelievably impressive, even if they are one of the bigger teams for the level.

34:17I found that, just on that, I found that when we were at Derby and we were under all the embargoes, we had to throw lads from the academy in, into the first team, who were probably not ready at the time. But what I found with them is, they had no bad habits, they had no bad experiences of first team football. They hadn't played in front of crowds or anything before. So you put them in, you give them a message to, like, this is how we want you to play, so don't worry if you make a mistake with it. And so many of them were, like, I was shocked. I had to play them, but I was like, wow, these are incredible.

34:53Because they hadn't had any bad experience of messing up. So then they had no doubt to, right, if I do this and I'll give the ball away, is this going to happen? So I think that's similar to what you're explaining there. For a young player in the EFL as well, your head coach, your manager at any given time has such a big impact on your ability to move up the leagues. You might say that over a 10-year career, if you are good enough, you will get there. But when you're really young, so Dylan Lawler, good example, is a centre-back for Cardiff. He's 19 and he's unbelievable, but he'd never played before this season.

35:25And Barry Murphy went, yep, that's a young John Stones. He's going to be my starting centre-back. Can you do that? Do we need someone with more experience? No, I want this guy. So he's gone from never playing a senior game in his life to probably being worth 20 million quid. Like, that's how good he's looked under Barry Murphy. And you just think if they'd hired someone else, whoever it might be, it doesn't matter, and they'd gone, actually, yeah, could you sign me two experienced centre-backs? Because that's what I think I need to get out of the division. Then Lawler, who knows what happens? He either doesn't play, maybe goes on loan.

35:53That's rolling the dice down in League Two. It is incredible to me how much of an impact a head coach can have on a young player. And it makes the club a lot of money as well. because they certainly saved a lot of money by not splashing the cash in the summer and he certainly built the value of this squad and these young players and given an unbelievable feeling around the place as well. So, just a quick one for us. I was with Bri last year at Leicester. He was a coach at Leicester under Rude. So when Rude came in, he brought Bri in and he's one of the most unbelievable coaches I've ever had. Honestly, my whole career in terms of his detail.

36:21Yeah, go on. Just in terms of his detail, how he set up his session. He would do everything because Rude was more of a manager. So Bri would take everything. His sessions were just top, really enjoyable to be involved in the possession sessions, the passing drills, the shooting drills, whatever you were doing. They were brilliant. And it doesn't surprise me. And to be fair, you know, you mentioned at the start of Cardiff, what they've done over the last few years. I think it's really clever from Cardiff, doing what they've done. I don't know what they've done previous years, wasting money. I think if that was their plan to really promote the young lads, they've not got a better fella than Bri at the helm to do that.

36:49Because, like you said, he's come through City and different things. But he's got a way with people. You've obviously heard him talk. He's super quick and you've got to take your time to understand them a little bit. But... Talking about me, yeah.

37:02But in terms of coaching younger players, honestly, I don't think there's many better than them. I know this is a bit of a stretch and you might say that's a really silly thing to say for us, but if you look at PSG, that's kind of in terms of what they've done, they had the superstar, the Galacticos, Hallam Globetrotters, the thing that didn't work and they've gone back to you know like young talent and local talent and talent within the club and look how they're doing is that silly is that silly thing to say even on and obviously that's world-class players but yeah I know you're saying but yeah the problem with PSG they've obviously got rid of major superstars to bring some of the different superstars in but I think what Lewis-Henrique has done is he's just got a foundation of the players working for each other and we've seen different styles over the last two games they've had they've gone total told by him in the first leg and then in the second leg they've been you know gritty they've you know they've gone there and obviously Eddie Kane scores late on but defensively they were outstanding yes and he was against Liverpool and Anfield as well so they've got different aspects to how they play but I still think it's a little bit different and that's just purely what Enrique has come in and what you don't normally get at clubs, at PSG, you haven't had before probably at Real Madrid, you don't normally get the manager coming in with the power to be able to do that.

38:28Well that's what I was going to say, if he doesn't go in and have that mindset, does anything change? Probably not to the extent it has. But you do, I mean Fenners, I think your point is around the academy and when there is a clear pathway from academy to first team, it can be very powerful for a club, firstly financially, if you can get first team contributors who are young players you haven't had to buy them pay them big wages and obviously that helps with what you can do with the rest of your budget but I think there's an intangible side to it as well the whole fan the fan base buy-in to young players local players maybe a bit more I think people within the club if they can see that the academy is not just being siloed and left on its own that probably increases buy-in as well and I actually think like a lot of EFL clubs just ignore their academy I don't really understand why they have one in the first place if then if they're not seemingly interested in using it.

39:18Everyone says that they will but it's actually very few teams that walk the walk when it comes to being patient with players but giving them opportunities at the right time and the benefits of that are amazing as Barry Murphy and Cardiff is showing. I think that's the pressure on the managers now though as well. You see managers getting sacked so quickly and then so then they have a decision to make then do we play a young lad or if their managers know they've got the time and the capabilities of bringing these young lads in. The World War, unfortunately, we've seen it now after six weeks of managers getting sucked.

39:55There's your headline anyway, Cardiff for the new PS3. So, Conor, do you think that Brian's name could be on a few German shopping lists in future? Yeah, I do. I do. And I think it's nothing against Cardiff in terms of what Cardiff father, a big side. I completely understand that he's done a brilliant job. But I think in terms of, I don't know what you think to this, Wayne, in terms of where coaches are now. So again, I worked under someone like Enzo who had come through the City model and that sort of stuff. The way they coach, they take everything. And Bri's the exact same. They take absolutely everything on the grass.

40:32They'll have coaches with them who will take little bits in there. But Bri took absolutely everything with us. And I knew he was going to go and do that with Cardiff. So I just don't know whether football is going that way a little bit. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, it is. It's got more coach than a manager. More sorts of coaching. So I think he'll be massively, massively sought after in terms of what he's going to do going forward, because I think there's loads of clubs who would benefit from bringing him in because I think he's that much of a good coach. I really do. OK, Michelle, welcome. Thank you.

41:00Bromley. 11th last season. I mean, what a year. Did you think this was possible? I did, actually. No, I did. I genuinely did. The evidence is there. I said back in October that I thought Bromley were going to get promoted from League Two, partly because I thought the quality in League Two wasn't that high this season. Last season, you had the likes of Doncaster, Bradford, Portfell. I think Wimbledon went up for the playoffs. This season, there wasn't obvious standout sides. and the way that, I mean, it's so interesting hearing today about the different teams. Bromley are basically Lincoln, but in League Two in terms of the style of football that Bromley play.

41:42I think Andy Woodman is actually the manager of the season in the EFL system because Bromley's story is a genuine fairytale story. 132 years in non-league football and then your first two seasons in the EFL, you go up to League One. I don't like, you can't script that. And that's not because, and Bromley haven't done it with tons and tons of money. They've done that through proper recruitment, a shared vision off the pitch. It's still very much a non-league club. I'm sure they're listening to this, but when you go behind the scenes at Bromley, the ethos of our non-league tradition is clearly still there.

42:18There's no kind of here are the players and here are the fans. It's still very much interlinked like a non-league system or a non-league team is. and what we did well I think is we got off the pitch right first and then once Andy Woodman came in in 2021 the on the field recruitment culture in the dressing room has matched the off the field off the field kind of vision so a lot of players when they come to Bromley obviously we're lucky we're based in southeast London so that helps from a kind of geographic point of view but when lot of players come to bromley they say wow we can't believe the facilities you've got behind the scenes and that i think that helps recruitment well i'm thinking that you had quite a lot of success with set pieces yes yeah uh but that do you know what because it kind of limits to say we're a set piece side we're very we're a direct side for sure uh percentages second ball um uh winning winning uh second contacts etc i call it a smash mouth style we've developed we've coined a phrase at Bromley where when teams pitch up to play Bromley and we beat them we say you've just been Bromley'd because of the style of football we play but Paul will know Paul played against Bromley when we were back in the national league and there's a certain style that Bromley have had where you know you're in a game you can't you can't just pitch up and expect to beat Bromley they're going to make it very hard for you to win and to give you another stat since Andy Woodman walked into the club Bromley have failed to be defeated 75 percent of the time that he's being manager which is a phenomenal phenomenal stat for for a team that's going through the non-league system right into what will be league one um next season now obviously there's big questions about how we're going to compete in league one with the likes of the teams that are coming down from the championship will be will be the smallest club um in in league one next season but we were one of the smallest clubs in league two we were one of the smallest clubs in the national league so there is I think there's a there's just a culture at that football club which says we can overachieve no matter what and what they get right more than anything else is the small percentages that can equal up to the bigger teams with the bigger budgets etc so yeah what a journey yeah it seems sorry because you were very reluctant to say a set piece team which I don't know whether because what Arsenal have been doing in the season set pieces is probably coached more than anything else so it's part of the game so the team who actually coach set pieces better will probably have more success the three league winners in the EFL Coventry Lincoln all scored the most goals from set pieces this season and every year the team who are the best at set pieces get promoted so it's a good thing but you throw Arsenal into that as well but do you know why I said that do you know why I said that Wayne because I think some managers maybe when you get reduced to being a set piece team it implies that you can't do anything else or it implies that you can't play good football same as Millwall as well yeah we can but we're just very effective at dead ball situations and that's long for holes as well we're a long for old team as well and I just I'm just intrigued this season as Ali just said why is it that the teams I don't think everyone's mimicking Arsenal maybe I don't know maybe they are but why is it that the teams who are super effective from dead ball situations have gone to the top of each of the EFL leagues this season.

45:51Because there's that many goals scored. I think it was 30 % of goals scored like that. It's scored by set pieces. And that's not just this season. That's going back. Man United won the Champions League in 1999 off a set piece. It's a big part of the game. And if you actually get your set pieces right, both defensively and offensively, you've got a much better chance of doing well. So when are you saying that basically the attention to detail with set pieces has always been there? It's just maybe that we as the media, our fans, we're hearing about it more? It's because it's a bit different. It's how Arsenal have done it now and a lot of teams are doing it now, where you've got like five players stood out the back in.

46:32But it's really clever. If you're a defender, how do you mark it? Do you go man-to-man and allow them the space to run into? or just stay there and cover the space and let them run into you, but then they've got to run on you. So it's actually very difficult to... So Arteta has looked at that, or his set-piece coach, whoever it is, has looked at it to get the best out of his team and make it as difficult to come to the opposition. So I just think set-piece is a massive part of the game and the quicker everyone... But it's not just you, by the way. There's so many people that are like, oh, we're not a set-piece team.

47:04I do think it's more... I do think you're completely right, by the way, because we do so much on it in training. It becomes quite boring, to be honest with you, because you've got people whipping balls in, you're heading balls and it's like, oh, that and that. It becomes quite boring, but you've got to do it to get the work in, but I do think Arsenal have made it more fashionable. Do you know what I mean? Because for years now we've looked at Pep Guardiola's team, we've got to set pieces of Pep Guardiola's team, but now Arsenal have made it a little bit... So we're not scared to actually say now that, oh, you've just got loads of goals from set plays, so you've just said we're a long throw team.

47:29I've never heard that in my life. A long throw team. But now we're all right saying we're a long throw team because more teams now do it. So I definitely think Arsenal going on to win the league, they've made it more fashionable to do that. But it's definitely a thing that over the years... Is it optics though? Because on the pitch, as you were alluding to there, you can see the fact that they're all congregating. They have to do that echelon charge thing around the back post, don't they? It's like, oh, you can see that. Whereas there might be other teams who are working really hard on set pieces, but it's a different sort of set piece.

48:00Yeah, and I just think the attention into detail on set pieces now, obviously at the higher level you see now set piece coaches, you see all these sorts of things that are coming into the game. And they're becoming more well worked and there's real routines to them now. It's a VAR as well for defenders, now it's... You're not meant to grab all the players and stuff, so if you could make a defender, normally you see there's a little movement, but if you can actually make a defender, you have to chase it across the box. Yeah. If Conor's chasing me, he's going to think, I can't leave him free there, so he'll probably end up grabbing you and then.

48:34So the movement's a little bit bigger to make it more difficult for the defenders. How much of your week in training is about set pieces? We do meetings and everything. So you do meetings before, so more towards the back end of the week, say you've got a game on a Saturday, it'd be more towards the back end, so whether it's the Thursday or the Friday. And if you've got a set piece coach, and this is going to sound really bad because I've had set piece coaches before, they feel like they've got to get the work in because that's their job. So all of a sudden you go to set-piece coaching for 45 minutes an hour, working on different set-players, we'll do this set-play, this is the one we'll do this week, whether it's a short one, whether it's a whip, an in-swinger, an out-swinger.

49:09So there's a good chunk of the week. Different teams will do it differently. But I can imagine Arsenal go through it an awful lot. I can imagine Bromley go through it an awful lot, do you know what I mean, in terms of that's the way they've won the league, not solely based on set-plays, by being a good team, but it's a massive part of how they score goals. So it's a huge chunk, probably more than what you're sorting. And then you go in the meeting and you've got to go through the clips and say, you're doing this, and then if you're the one who's not marking on a set play, defending. Oh, man, you don't want to be involved in them meetings, believe me.

49:39Immersing yourself in all things soccer ahead of this summer's World Cup? I'm Alex Abnos, Senior Sports Editor from The Guardian. Whether you're a soccer beginner or you know the game inside and out, we've got you covered. From one of the fastest-growing soccer newsrooms, The Guardian brings you in-depth World Cup coverage that gets into the winners and losers on and off the pitch. Read, watch, and listen as our journalists connect the dots between the games, the cultures, and this political moment. We'll have daily newsletters throughout the tournament, a global perspective, and a squad of Americans, including me, on the ground with the U.S.

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51:43So if we can have an agreement that set pieces are hugely important, and we've seen that and we've seen long throws coming in, and we've seen teams playing a little bit more directly. you watch a lot of football so for the three of you is there any part of the game is there an element of something that you're seeing creeping in that is going to be kind of like the next thing that might start happening in football and then the next kind of new new thing that we might see I think like how many years ago it was goalkeepers I think that's going to go through every position through time where they'll be individualised like they'll be a forward coach a midfielder coach defender coach like set pieces and obviously goalkeepers forever in the day have had their own coach i think there's going to be times during the week as obviously time goes on where individual positions get taken they do now for meetings and things like that but i think that's more of like a broad thing of what what they're expected to do on the pitch but i think like actually sessions will start to be tailored around yeah different positions as as we go along well that's that's i was watching that i was at the arse the game the other day and um i know a lot of the the bigger teams now that's already in place and so before the Arsenal game they warm up and then you like Gabriel Hines taking the back four and um so we just took them then you've got the forwards with the coach here the wild players here so it's it's um you could see that's already happening now I think what we're going to see over the next couple of years more is teams pushing up and go instead of the goalkeepers playing out from the back I think you're going to start seeing in the Premier League as well.

53:22Teams pushing up and squeezing to one time. I think that as we've seen long throws come back in, I think we're gradually seeing it go back to a little bit the way it used to be. I think we'll see that a little bit more over the next couple of years. Yeah, I thought Jacarese's performance the other night, I want to just get your thoughts on that because you can see that other teams probably looking at that and going, that was like a number nine, it was almost like, are we going to see a re-emergence of a number nine? I'm sure you'd love that, but what are your thoughts? Yeah, I've said about Jokker as all season and he's been criticised, but I actually very like him.

54:01I've said this all season and I've been criticised for Sainé. I think what he brings, and obviously Conor's here as well, what he brings, he occupies defenders, he makes them work he makes them defend and he runs the channels and that's creating more space we've seen tonight it's creating more space for as a um for saka because the centre-back two cents back one center back goes just has to cover then the fullbacks covering around so then if you switch it out quick here it just creates so much more space for everyone else just just behind them so um and i think the last few weeks he's starting to to show that even more than um and it'll be a major reason if Arsenal go on to win the league and the Champions League because that's where the Arsenal's been short I think in the last few years and I know he hasn't scored you know the goals Harland scored but he's been really important for that Arsenal team and I think he'll be a major factor why did he do win the two of them he's another one no friend as any he comes from Coventry so we talk about yeah do you know what I mean like he was a top for Cov I remember being at Everton and Everton linked with him loads when I was I was thinking I hope we get when I was at Everton, you know what he's doing now.

55:09I thought he was incredible the other night. So, Wayne on the South, I was incredible. Honestly, I hated to play against him the other night. Well done. David, how are you? I'm good. Let's start York City. Back in the AFL, after a decade away, you were commentating on that game. I think the commentary has gone round the world with your co-commentator, Ian Dunne. Yeah. Just, if you can relive that moment for us, it was quite remarkable. to be honest. The only time I can ever remember, I don't know if anyone else can come up with anything similar, was with the two teams playing each other on the final day going for the title was back in 89.

55:45You guys are probably a little bit too young actually. The Liverpool Arsenal game, where Michael Thomas scored twice deep into injury time for Arsenal to win the title at Anfield. I think until last week that was the first time it ever happened. York needed a draw, Rochdale needed to win. 0-0 going into injury time, six minutes of injury time went up, Although the referee's assistant didn't put his board up because they didn't want a pitching version. They ended up with three in the end. Didn't want any. Five minutes in, Rochdale got the goal. Everyone thought that was it from us. Working for York City of BBC Radio York.

56:18Absolute heartbreak. All the Rochdale fans were on the pitch celebrating. The management of Rochdale are celebrating. The players, one of them's doing a Facebook Live and the Substitutes bench. It's been subbed off. Had a bit of rowling. Took about six minutes to clear the pitch. York had one minute left to score and they went downfield and got the equalising goal to win the title. Absolutely amazing. I think the Rochdale's mentioned in the Facebook Live, they sort of lost their heads a little bit to the Rochdale players. The manager as well went on the field celebrating when York scored. He thought the referee had blown the final whistle.

56:52They'd all just completely lost it. York got the goal, kicked off and that was it. Amazing. What's your thoughts on that? I mean, I'm pretty certain I know what you're going to say because if it had been on the other foot, then you'd have been feeling pretty sore about it. But what are your thoughts on the National League in terms of the... Well, we had the same last year. York finished second on 96 points, played Oldham at home in the semi-finals of the playoffs, who finished about 26 points, I think it was, behind York. And Oldham went and won 3-0 at York. That was it, season over, and Oldham ended up getting promoted.

57:23It's so hard. Paul will tell you how hard it is. He had the Wrexham-Notts County season. We've done that same situation. We finished second, I think it was 93 points, and the first year was there. And then we lost to Grimsby, who was the lowest placed in the play-off table, who come to our place, beat us 5-4, which happened all year. It was a one-off game as a freak. That was Manny Disarue as well, wasn't it, who scored the goal for Rockdale last week? Literally there again. I think it's so unfair. Obviously, Football League clubs have got to vote in, having the itches an issue, because no-one wants to miss out.

57:55But I think probably a fairer way is probably have a play-off with the last place from League Two. because they still have the chance to go up. They just have to beat the National League side. They've obviously done really well all season. But yeah, I think the top two should go up automatically to have them points totals that they have. Even Notch County of the Year, when we beat them, we got 111, I think they were 107 or 8. I think to finish on that many points and not be guaranteed promotion is scandalous, really. I think the standard as well between the top few teams in the National League is actually better than the bottom few teams in League Two.

58:29I think most people would agree with that. You think sooner or later it would have to change, but the turkeys vote for Christmas, they probably don't do they. You're right, yeah. Ali, where are those conversations at? Do you think that's just going to, any chance of that changing any time soon? Well, I think when you look at the English pyramid as a whole, Premier League has three down, three up from the Championship, Championship has three down. And it's just League One having four down and therefore League Two having four up and then only two down. It's a great place to be League Two. You can be really, really poor and not get punished as you can in higher leagues.

59:03And you can go up without being as good relative to the level. So it's just a bit of a weird situation that we've got ourselves into due to random historic stuff from decades ago. But the driver for change, I believe, has to be the clubs voting for it in the EFL. And what we know is that clubs vote with self-interest in mind, which we can't necessarily blame them for. They'll all have that incest, won't they? Until they find themselves down in the division. And then all of a sudden, those two teams who will have voted no, all of a sudden then will wish they'd have changed their mind. So I don't understand it.

59:39I get it from a short-term point of view. But in the long term, if they find themselves out of the league, they're going to wish they'd have voted the other way. I remember Gareth Ainsworth, when he was Shrewsbury manager, when they were in League One, saying, there's absolutely no way we will vote for this. They're in League One at the time. It's like you've got to have a bit of confidence and self-belief in your own ability and your own football club. But there's so many teams that don't. It's a business, if anything. Unfortunately, it is a business and the owners are going to just not vote it in.

1:00:06I'm not confident it's going to happen. I think it should. It's ridiculous the points they get, but I don't think it's going to change purely because owners won't allow it to change. I think most of the clubs that have been in the non-league, in the National League, would vote for it. I know York City have come out and said, we will definitely still vote for three up, three down. I don't know if Rexham would still vote for three up, three down. on Nance County. I imagine they probably would do. I'd say that, but if you look at Harrogate, those clubs, bear in mind, have got good money. Well, Harrogate always said they would.

1:00:32They've got good money to spend to keep going up the divisions. Harrogate and Barrow, is it? Yeah, yeah, gone down. Obviously, would they have voted for them? Harrogate always said they would. I'm not so sure they would have this year. Well, no, exactly. If the vote was in April this year, I'm not sure they would have. So it's just a very selfish point of view from every club. They're going to take their own stance and just go with what's right for them and it shouldn't be the case. but it's going to be... I think you're right. There's a lot of clubs in League Two now who are just treading water.

1:00:59To go over half a season, I know Harrogate went over 23 games in a row without getting a win. I know they went down the last day of the season, but they still had a realistic chance of staying up. Trammear definitely went at least 23 games in a row without getting a win and did stay up. It just seems bizarre, really, that some of these clubs are blocking the pathway for everyone else, especially when there's four going up out of League Two into League One. And you've got a few quid, York. Yep. So, that's what I'd say. What are your thoughts about potentially in like... Oh, they want to go again.

1:01:29Yeah, they want to go again. They want to do a Rex and we've got Canadian owners again. Or Bromley. Yeah, or Bromley. Well, they've done two years, but yeah, they're already talking about wanting to win the title next year. Whether that's realistic, I'm unsure. But I think if York City don't at least reach the playoffs next season, they will see that as a bit of a failure. I think the majority of players they've got there now are all under contract. They're relatively young. definitely good enough to play in League Two and there's a handful of them easily good enough I would say to play in League One as well already.

1:01:59It's definitely positive. It's definitely realistic as well. They'll have a top six budget from what I understand of York's reported budget and sort of knowing a bit about League Two budgets. Obviously the teams that come down from League One have a horrific record over the last four years. When I say horrific record of the last 16 teams to come down, 13 of them are finished in the bottom half of League Two. So that seems to you just sink like So if you're coming up, you've got that muscle memory of winning. You've got a core group of players that know how to win playing together. We've seen it pretty consistently that teams will...

1:02:31History tells you, doesn't it? Teams that come up out of the National League do well as soon as they get into League Two. No team's ever been relegated back into the National League. I think Bromley would have changed the conversation on that as well, in so much as a lot of boards around League Two rightly will be saying, if Bromley could do it, what is our justification for not being able... And Bromley have done it, let's be honest, that we've done it on a minimal budget compared to what the rest of League Two had. So if we can do it, there's no excuse for the teams who actually have a budget to get into League One to be able to do it.

1:03:03So much less if Bromley then go into League One and then stay up in League One. There'll be a lot of boards in League One saying, how have they done that? So, yeah, I think teams like Lincoln and Bromley have probably changed a lot of conversations behind the scenes through the EFL.

1:03:23With all this talk of promotion, it's a shame to talk about the other side of it, relegation. But Callum, I'm going to ask you to talk us through those teams who have faced relegation. From Championship? Yeah. Don't allow it. We've got people to ask. Well, we owe you. Come on. You made me. Oxford first. Oxford were unlucky. Like we said earlier, as unlucky as you can be by still finishing third bottom across a full season. but you're going up against like West Brom, so like Charlton have come from spending a lot of money, but Charlton have got a good team, like Portsmouth are really good towards, and Blackburn have got some serious players, so I think Oxford have found themselves unlucky to be going up against them sort of sides, like Leicester going down, like some serious clubs going down, and then Wednesday are different, aren't they?

1:04:07At least we've got owners in, but yeah, I took some joy in that, at least, but they've gone. Yeah, how are you feeling about that? Are the owners... Great, nah, I knew he'd talk about that. No, I bet they... Nah, it's been a horrible season, but on the pitch really it's not being even thought about. It's all off the pitch. We've had a good ending, we've got a new owner in, but the things we've gone through this season, it genuinely is the worst ever season anybody's ever had in the NFL. So, yeah, you stop thinking about football really and you're just looking at boardroom. We obviously got rid of owner, which was great, and then we had a rough period of administration, not won many games, only won two all season.

1:04:54But yeah, we got a nice ending because we got new owners and yeah, Callum were hoping for us to be on minus 15, but we're not, so you don't get that head start, mate. Wimps you over that. So Jake, what are your expectations for next season? To be honest, just want to win a few games. We've got no players, we lost pretty much our full squad. We've played a lot of young lads this season, some of them have done well, but we've not got many senior professionals, so we've got to bring them in. Obviously, when you bring a lot of players in, it makes it really difficult to go straight back up. But we'll have a go and it's just nice.

1:05:32I think owners have promised us hot water and we're just happy with that. We're in a good spot next year. When you've been the manager at the club, when the team have placed the points deduction, How difficult was that in terms of the morale? It was horrible. One of the staff members I had with me was at Sheffield. I actually saw what you were being able to was very similar to what we had at Derby.

1:06:03We managed to get a decent team of kids, and a couple of experienced players. we've been there to actually compete for most of the season so we were quite lucky to be able to do that but behind the scenes you know some of the stuff you know we've got an act people the administrators coming and taking the coffee machine away and staff getting redundant so we got 12 points deduction at first then when we got back to zero points they give us another nine points and then we actually we ended up accumulating 56 points in the end which was really good actually but we got relegated but what it done what I firmly believe it brought the players the staff the fans it brought them together we got relegated and QPR away and then when we got back to the training ground there was thousands of fans outside the training ground cheering the players in which you very rarely see well I don't think you ever see it when you get relegated in and it brought a unity back to the club so I think getting the new owners in for now for Sheffield Wednesday and actually not having that many players there is probably a positive, I think, because you haven't got that much memory of players being in that situation and you can actually start and there's so many players now who you can get on the free and for little money who have been at a good level or can help you get back steady and I think that'll be a positive for Sheffield Wednesday next season and I think you've just got to be positive now and you've been through a horrendous time.

1:07:37Do you think they'll be able to go straight back up? them and Leicester, them two especially coming down into a tough league? It purely depends on what they're allowed to do. Because with us, when we come out of administration, then you're not allowed to sign players. You can only pay a certain amount on players. So it depends really what the EFL allow them to. And it depends on how the EFL allow you to come out of administration. Yeah, I mean, we lost a lot of players already, due to restrictions because such as like Barry Bannon had to leave because they couldn't offer him any more than a wage cap that we had in place we lost all our best players obviously Josh Windass left and um like all the sort of uh assets that the club had have gone so uh when you look at the punishment that Wednesday's had this season they've not only had the points deduction and the relegation we've also lost all our assets so all everything else like that it was exactly the same but then it depends now how they let you come out because over the next couple of years are they going to allow you to go and just spend again?

1:08:44No, there will be restrictions. There will still be a lot of restrictions there, I think. Yeah, I mean, there should be to a degree. It wouldn't be fair with it if Wednesday just went and splashed the cash and went back up. But in terms of, obviously, the punishments, I think we sort of suffered enough given it were one man's mistakes. Jordan, how are you, mate? I'm good other than the football but I'm glad everyone else had a nice season Yeah I think you were on on fan debate maybe last year when you were talking about you know we were talking about Premier League and you're going to be in League One next season I mean where's it where's it all gone wrong?

1:09:23Well how long have you got? I mean last time I was on the show I was telling Carragher how badly we were run I think we're the worst run football club in the country obviously Sheffield Wednesday are out the other side now but we have fallen from such a height to the lowest ebb of our club's history inside four seasons, which is some going. I mean, five years ago, we won the FA Cup. Four years ago, we played Roma in a Conference League semifinal. And, you know, no disrespect, it's a triumph of the pyramid, but we're playing Bromley, who have spent the majority of their existence in non-league.

1:09:54And this year was just the worst season imaginable. It's the highest wage bill ever to get relegated from the second tier with two games to spare. It's an embarrassment. it's the first ever time the club have had a points deduction in our entire history it's only the second time we've played in the third division and it's the first time in our entire history we've suffered back-to-back relegations and for me listening to you know what the Sheffield Wednesday fans have been going through our fear is that we're about to go through the exact same thing I mean we were talking before about where Coventry City have been I'm in the minority of Leicester fans I'm very pleased for Coventry I fear that we're going to be spiralling towards League Two very quickly unless there's a change in ownership or a change in accountability in the boardroom.

1:10:37Yeah, that was going to be my next question. You know, how does it change? Well, for me, I would like to see the removal of who is now the Chief Football Officer, was the Director of Football, overseeing three relegations in four seasons. The club have announced that there's an evolved leadership structure where John Rudkin's the Chief Football Officer. Well, it's quite difficult for me because obviously Conor's been involved with the club, but from the outside, he's overseen this period that what was called strategic squad development has taken the team from competing in Europe, playing in the third division, and has effectively been promoted.

1:11:09For me, that's the obvious place to start, is to remove him from the position, but he's effectively been promoted in charge of the women's team, who are also bottom of the WSL. And for me, I would like to see the club to be sold. Personally, I sit on the side that, you know, two things can be true. You can be extremely thankful for what King Power gave us, but I'm extremely worried about the future of the club and the direction under Top and John Rudkin, the facts are there. It's only been one way. So that's where I'd like to see change made. Connor, when you were there, did you have any inkling that this might be the outcome?

1:11:44This is a hard one for me. I'm going to be honest because I know the people he's talking about. I know them really well, if I'm being completely honest. And I know the frustrations. I got a lot of the frustrations. They gave me a lot of the frustrations when I was playing for him. So it's a tough one to have an opinion on. Did I see this coming to League One? No. Did we have the worst season imaginable in the Premier League? Yeah. I hated every minute of it. It was solid. It was as hard as it can be. I'm sure you'll agree with that. And I was feeling it more than anybody on the pitch. It was tough, but did I see them going to League One?

1:12:12No. Not with the team they've got. I really didn't. I know a lot of the players still in the dressing room and they take a lot of flack. I think if you look at where they've gone to from Enzo. So we had Enzo and I'm sure we speak about Enzo. And the sort of manager he is, I think he's unbelievable. but then you go from Enzo who's one like area of manager and he is what he is to then a different manager who's the complete opposite end of the spectrum and that's no disrespect to Steve Cooper who come in, he was a really good manager as well but he was completely different to Enzo and then Steve Cooper then leaves and then you go to Ruud and then Ruud then leaves and you go to Marty Marty then leaves and it's just totally different managers from different places so for me I didn't expect him going to League One We have come to the end of the show, big thanks to Conor, to Paul and to Wayne Big thanks to you guys.

1:12:57That is it for another wonderful, I think you'll find it wonderful, wonderful episode of The Fan Debate brought to you by Skybet. Hopefully I'll see you again soon. Cheers.

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