Liverpool’s Contract Secrets, Tapping Up Rooney & Neymar’s Party Clause! | The Overlap Fan Debate

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1:57Sadie is a Mochi member compensated for her story I'd tap Wainry, wouldn't you? Was that when he was about to go to Newcastle? Who do you think will be playing at Liverpool next season? I'd go Van Dijk I think Trent's 50-50 I think Salah's more likely to go Mattis' tail can't necessarily just run away That's right Apparently he had a clause that said every month He could have eight of his best mates coming over from Brazil To have a party in Barcelona Luke, you've probably got a lot of questions for Daniel, I would imagine 115 of them You don't remember the Tony Adams goal? I was two How much is Declan Weiss worth?

2:35He said it's going to take the Bank of England for him to leave Did you ever get tapped up? No, never I never?

2:46Hello and welcome back to the Fan Debate brought to you by Skybet Paul Scoles joins me again with the rest of the fans and we have a special guest, Daniel G, in here today. Sports lawyer? Yes? Correct. Yes, yeah, got that right. You got my surname right as well, thank you God. I always get that right. But before we start, we're going to go with the quiz. So come on, who's up? Come on, fancy your chances? As long as they're not about the 80s, they'll be all right. Right. Alex, right, Scoles, have you got the time? Yes, we're at it. Okay. What team did Arsene Wenger join Arsenal from? Monaco. No.

3:25Who was Mikel Arteta's first sign as Arsenal manager? Cedric Suarez. No. Who scored the winner for Arsenal v Chelsea in the 2017 FA Cup final? Al Ramsey. Name the Arsenal midfield legend that was signed from AC Milan in 1995. Petit. No, you're having a nightmare. Arsenal have had five shared sponsors in their history. Name four of them. JVC Fly Emirates

3:55JVC Pass Dennis Bergkamp and Ian Wright score the combined total of how many Arsenal goals That's a hard one

4:07275 305 or 335 335 No Arsenal fail to defeat which two sides in the Premier League during 0-3-0-4 invincible season United and Liverpool. United and Portugal. Who scored the last goal at Highbury? Henri. Yes. Which Arsenal midfielder was known as the Romford Pele? Ray Parler. How many Arsenal fans, what was Per Maitersaka's nickname? BFG. Yeah. Which Chilean international scored 80 goals for Arsenal? Manchester. Tony Adams scored the fourth goal of the final whole game of the 98 title winning season against who? Spurs. You don't remember that Tony Adams goal? I was two. Oh. Arsenal were the first team to win both the League Cup and FA Cup in the same season.

4:52Who did they beat in that final? Did you repeat the question, sorry? I've started something. He needs it. I got it. He needs it. Arsenal were the first team to win both League Cup and FA Cup in the same season. Which side did they beat in both finals? Are you wondering what I know this? If I answer it, can I take a point off him? Except for Wednesday. Yes. I was born in 97. I don't know half of these. It was Everton as well. I was born in... Venga was a Japanese team There's grandpa say Paul Roshay and your buzz in there I thought you were going to smash that Five You look like the intellectual type You got five It's just a jumper I remember I got nine as well But when they were in my era I felt I was doing alright Alex Leave James on Leave me on now.

5:46Leave James. Leave James. Leave James.

5:53We're going to Alex. Yeah, don't let him get away with us. Still shit anyway, Alex.

6:09So let's introduce ourselves properly. Daniel, we've got Daniel G, author, blogger, podcaster, Daniel. Yeah. Yeah. And so welcome to the Fan Debate. And you're a sports lawyer. So fill us in. How does that work? How are you involved in the game? Yeah, so primarily I work with three different types of people. It's the players, agents and club owners. And for the players and the agents, the type of stuff I do is when a transfer happens, contract renegotiations, boot deals, takeovers. When shit hits the van, can I swear? on this? Is that right? Yeah, I just have. You can beep it out if you need to.

6:46And, you know, if the story's in the papers, if there's disciplinary stuff, whatever it is, I'm the guy that tries to help the players deal with that type of stuff. Well, I think the big thing right now in the game that it feels like it affects everybody is PSR and FFP. Now, are they the same thing? What's the difference? Explain that to us. Yeah, so FFP is the historical financial fair play rules that were basically brought in by UEFA. They've basically been weaned out now, and there are cost control regulations that are coming in for all clubs playing in European competition. The PSR rules are basically for the Premier League and the Championship.

7:22And the more or less idea there for a while was no one really thought the rules were going to be enforced too seriously. And then a couple of years ago, or last year, we have Forrest and Everton getting points deductions, and then everybody taking it a little bit more seriously. Now, what's happened more recently is the Premier League is possibly introducing other regulations in line with UEFA. I can't be bothered telling you all the different acronyms but bear with me on that one and more or less then the idea is that the PFA, Professional Football Association are now quite annoyed and considering legal action against the Premier League because there is possibly a type of salary cap also going to be implemented in short term Understandably, supporters in here and up and down the country when they see FFP or they see their clubs whether it's Man City, Everton Forest as being other clubs under investigation at different times.

8:11And we get frustrated because we all get excited by the transfer market. We want to see our team spending money. No one likes the people who are involved in red tape or the Premier League and these type of people. But with your background, would you say PSI is good for the game? Well, it depends. I mean, you go back 10, 15 years and even a little bit before and afterwards. And I think football has and still has a major problem in terms of cost control generally. Everybody spending whatever they wanted to, huge losses, whether that's sustainable. That's the whole idea around the independent football regulator you guys have been talking about for a long time.

8:46UEFA's idea at the beginning was just trying to make everyone a little bit, everything a little bit more sustainable. So you had losses over a billion pounds in European competition for those clubs participating in those competitions, then reducing just before COVID to around 200 million. It's been problems since, obviously, but there's still a major problem in English football, never mind anywhere else. Premier League clubs combined made losses of over£1.3 billion in the 22-23 season. And that's with revenues of over£6 billion. So I think if it's PSR, if it's what FFP used to be, if it's the independent regulator trying to make everyone a little bit more cost-control sensitive, I think generally in my mind that's a good thing.

9:27The problem is always going to be, why can't we spend more? Why can't we do this? That debate isn't going to go any time soon, I don't think. It has to be flawed in some way. Look, I don't understand it massively. A lot of fans probably won't do, but I look at our club with Adam, with Man United, and you think we have to sell local players, players that we've invested a lot of time in. A lot of people talk about Ganaccio and Mainu. Mainu's been there since seven, eight years of age. And we're thinking now we've come to a point, it's looking like a mismanagement from the club, I don't know, where we might have to sell him to actually start bringing people in.

10:02But also another thing that I don't understand that you'll have to explain to me. Did we talk about Garnaccio going for 60 million quid because he's a homegrown player? And that allows them then to spend under an 80 million quid or something, was it? How does that work? Yeah, I mean, on the first point, I think it's always the case that that is the out that all owners and chief execs have, which is sell your great young players. By the way, City have done it brilliantly over the past 10 years, almost 400 million pounds of profit coming in from homegrown. The thing with Ganacho or Maina or anyone else is when you are basically selling a homegrown player, you account for all of the transfer profits straight away into your accounts.

10:41So if it's 60 mil, 60 mil goes in in that season if it's guaranteed money. For then when you're buying players, usually it's not quite on layaway, but you're doing it in installments and you're usually accounting for that transfer fee over the length of that player contract. So you might get 60 in. You might actually only need to pay 10 million in instalment for the next player coming in, along with his wages as well. Right. I mean, when you're talking about all aspects of the game, so it looks like you cover everything, every facet of it. And the big story probably this season in terms of contract renewal.

11:18So are you sort of saying that you're almost like an agent for certain players as well, or you get involved in the deals? there's a frustration I think from Liverpool supporters that those three players have not signed contracts or especially Mo Salah and Virgil van Dijk because you're involved in all facets of the game can you understand what the rationale is from Liverpool because I think most fans up and down the country even from other clubs be thinking why didn't you sign them, the great players? Yeah, I mean I think you and Gary and Paul had great discussions on this in the past as well I'm not going to say anything revolutionary only to say is Liverpool's general approach over the last period of time has always been be careful about renewing over 28, 29, 30-year-olds.

12:02And I think the fan base have a slight issue in that there's this thing called confirmation bias, as we talked about, which is fans will necessarily think past performance is going to be the same as future performance. And because of that, and because they are three such iconic players, everybody's going to be thinking, well, just simply renew. and you're exactly right what you said before there's probably three or four variables the one is age of the player second is position of the player usually strikers and midfielders get paid more than defenders and goalkeepers and the third is the length of that contract and because we don't know any of those variables and we don't know what the players want you know usually over 32 33 year olds want to have two or three year extensions because that will keep them to basically retirement And the other thing I would also say is, and it came out in the summer, it was a brilliant book I'd really recommend, not that I'm making this about book club or anything, but Ian Graham's book, How to Win the Premier League, ex-head of Liverpool data science, was basically explaining how they assign a points per season basis to all of these players.

13:05They will know how much Van Dijk, how much Trent, how much Salah is worth for them generally. And what you don't want to be doing as you're getting players into your 30s is paying them huge amounts of money and then not actually using that value on the pitch. You want to make sure that the biggest players, the most transfer fees, the highest wages are being used on the pitch. And that's how they're going to, I think, base that decision. I'm probably of the view, and probably most Liverpool fans, that you're desperate for them to stay and you're always sort of keeping in the back of your mind, oh, they'll sort it out.

13:36They'll get around the table and they'll sort it out one way or another. We don't want to lose there. Where else are they going to go? Do you think that would, because obviously it's a lot more scientific and that's what you're basically saying. Do you think where Liverpool are right now and what they've offered these players, do you think that would radically change between now and the end of the season? Do you think they'd be pushed into a corner or do you think they're so set on the numbers that they wouldn't move for anyone? And we are talking about two of the, probably the greatest players of all time for Liverpool in, you know, in Mo Salah and Virgil van Dijk.

14:07Yeah, I think there's probably two things. So, you know, negotiating sometimes against Michael Edwards is not, is a very difficult thing, just as you can imagine with lots of other technical directors at the time and otherwise. But if I was the agent for those players, you're more or less justifying why you're going to renew because of the replacement value and the cost to the club of doing that. And that is baked into then signing on fees, loyalty bonuses, and then how much they're going to earn per week with the variable bits alongside it. But ultimately, all of those things go in the mix of then making that decision.

14:41The biggest thing, which you guys will know much more than me, is that dressing room discussion becomes very important as well. You can't be then saying, well, Trent's going to be on this amount or Virgil's going to be on this amount, because then that lifts everyone up and everybody then knocks on the manager's door, or not the manager's door anymore, but the technical director or chief executive asking for that next amount of money. So I think Liverpool are really careful about they don't really renew over 30-year-olds, and that's part of the issue. And the other important thing in my mind is, Liverpool have been paying these three players at an undervalue for the last 18 months or so.

15:17Whatever Salah was worth three years ago, argument, it might be worth a lot more now in terms of his performance levels. And then there's another more cynical view is there's a lot of data research suggesting that players that are looking to renew their deals actually overperform in the season of the renewal and massively underperform in the couple of seasons after that renewal. so it wouldn't put it past them at all for Edwards and Ward and Hughes to be playing an absolute blinder it'll all be determined at the end of the season if they play well or not and win the league and Champions League Gareth, you're a supporter you've just listened to that now there's a lot of pressure from the supporters you know, the banners in the Kop give them what they want and this type of thing can you understand the club's stance or do you think it's ridiculous and these lads should be rewarded because we need them in the team next season.

16:08They're still the two best players in the team. I think it's mad that the three of them have reached the same stage at the same time. However you cook that up, however you present that, that looks to be a big mistake. There's got to be questions. There's context, obviously. Jürgen Klopp announcing he's leaving mid-season. A lot of people that you mentioned there also going, but then coming back, etc. There was a bit of turmoil at the club, maybe, and there was a bit of a, well, where are Liverpool going? What are they going to be doing this season? What's this new manager going to be like? Are they going to be challenging for stuff?

16:43All of those things. But they've answered those questions, I think. You know what I mean? We're top of the league. We were top of the Champions League table, etc. So I don't get why it's still not sorted now. Do you know what I mean? And the silence around it's strange to me because it's not been so bad lately just because the results are being good and there's lots of other stories kicking around. And so, you know, it's not being sort of top of the news agenda. But I was fearful that it could sort of derail what we're doing because it's like, it's there all the time. It's like question number one in the press conference, seemingly every week and things like that.

17:20So, you know, for that reason alone, bearing in mind where we are, what we could do, what a great season it could be, kind of think, isn't it in everyone's interest to get this done? You know, like, even to say it's over, you know, like for one of them to come up and say, no, actually, I'm going. to just end it. Sorry, is the actual issue the length of contracts or is it purely the money? Do we know that? No one knows. No one knows. And I think that's the point, isn't it? Salah's had his bit and a few social media posts. I think ultimately it's all about that renewal cost. So if it's£350 ,000, if it's£400 ,000, whatever it is, basically, it means there's less money elsewhere.

18:03So Liverpool haven't signed anybody. mainly in the last summer window, in this window, query whether there's going to be a big window. I'm of the view that regardless of what happens with these three players, it's probably a big window for Liverpool. Just as you said before, you know, it can go on in a bit of detail, but Liverpool have had almost£100 million worth of Champions League revenue already this season. They get to the later stages of the Champions League, it could be close to€200 million just for that participation, never mind the Premier League. Well, if they don't renew them, it's going to be a massive window, isn't it?

18:32Yeah. You talked about before, there's money to replace them. well what are you looking at? You're probably looking at£200 million to replace them to. Scholesy, we stayed at the same club so we were in that position in terms of getting into our 30s, signing a new club. How did it work with you? Was it always an extra year? Was it the same money? Did you have to drop the money as you got older? No, I never had to drop the money. I think it was always near enough the same. It probably was the same and it was one year. Once you get over 30, I think every club looks at that now. That's the way they do it.

19:05but I think it's a little bit different. I think in our time, 35, that was it. You were done. But now you're seeing players going to your 37s, 38s, 39s, 40s, and I think it's all right having all that info and that data that you're talking about, but your eye has to see it as well. I'm sure Slaughter, all his staff, they'll be seeing them two training every day, and you just look at the bodies, you look at them, what, they're 32, 33? it looks to me like two years is not a problem. I think you said before, two years plus a year option. And that year option is, it's not always in the club's favourite, it can be in the players' favourite as well.

19:44You talk about if you reach so many appearances, then yeah, that final year gets triggered. We get that now in lower league football in Salford. So the policy's always been there. Once you get over 30, year on year, and I can understand some people looking at me and the way I was, the way I planned, I think a year is enough. But I'm looking at them players thinking, they could piss this for the next two years. I agree. For me, I think because they're such good, they're still so good now. I do think for what, I understand what they've done for the club, but they're still so good right now that I don't think you could be offering them a year.

20:20It'd have to be two. But listen, you talk about Ian Graham's book and the data that goes into it. I've read that book, but you're probably across it even more than me. If I was to ask you right now with those three players and knowing what you know about Liverpool as the way you're going about things, who do you think will be playing at Liverpool next season? Terrible betting man, but if I was going to go, I'd go Van Dijk, but possibly Trent. I think Trent's 50-50. I think Salah's more likely to go. Okay. More likely. Didn't want to hear that. And do you know what? Even if their form does tail off a little bit in the next year, the next two years, the value they add to that club for bringing young players into it, it's still invaluable.

21:03And you still probably get the value from that. You think of Van Dijk coming in, a young centre-half coming to, right, he's going to show me what I need to do. Salah, I'm sure as well, would help different younger players coming in as well. So I think there's still value more than just the playing side of it. But for you both as ex-pros, right, if you have a teammate who's in the final year of their deal, but they're a key player in their 30s, are you saying, come on, signing the contract, you're a key player here? Nah. I never got involved in that. We had a situation with Roy, actually. Roy was coming right up to any of his contract.

21:31I think even from the January time, he's talked to the clubs. But it's not your business. As much as you want them to stay, you don't really talk about it. It's their life. They've given so many years. Van Dijk and Salah have been brilliant. If they want to go, then I don't think anybody would be slugging them off and begrudging them. I think Trent's a little bit different because he's a young player. But no, look, it's there. You just get on with it. There's another really big one as well, Jamie, which you'll have known as well, is as that contract weans its way down into the summer, the injury risk issue becomes, I think, a really, really big deal as well, especially for the slightly older players.

22:08God forbid there's an ACL injury for any of them, but the older boys especially. Which club is going to decide to take anyone on a two - or three-year extension? Like we saw with Matip, for example, great servant for Liverpool, does his ACL, not getting any renewal because they know it'll be another eight or nine months. That's from the players' point of view, though, isn't it? Yeah. More from the players, because they're thinking, look, I'm coming to the end of my contract here. If I get injured now, and all of a sudden that year or two-year contract's gone, what am I going to do? I might not get paid again for those two years.

22:40So I think the player-wise as well, you've got to have a bit of comfort in yourself that you're going to be... And Liverpool with Edwards and Hughes as well, their number one, two and three line, I can only imagine, has to be, you know, the team is set up for you. The whole reason we talked about before, Sobber's Lion, Curtis Jones on that right side, is to make sure that Salah doesn't have to track back too much. In the same way, you have Canate alongside Van Dijk, who isn't quite as quick as he used to be. I look at it in a bit like, I'd be gutted if Liverpool didn't sign him, but I'd also look at the players and thinking, why haven't you signed?

23:15It's a bit like, this is the... And I'm not just saying, because Liverpool, it's just like, as you say, the team's made for him, he's loved it. where are they going to go even though these are two of the greatest players other clubs probably aren't going to pay them that much money and give them the long contract because I don't think anyone in Europe does that now we don't know Sauri I just can't see Salah doing that he's too driven he's too much of a winner I just don't I think Salah can go there when he's 37, 38 I think he can play Has he been offered a contract categorically Salah? Yes, do not believe that he hasn't been offered a contract I can absolutely show you he will have been offered a contract So signing on fees has become big carrots for a lot of these players as well when you can go on a free transfer and you have to put£30 million up and you can pocket that£20,£30 million.

23:55You know what I'd love, right? Because I'd love to, we can't, but I'd love to know the details of like, years ago, things would come out in the press, wouldn't they? You know if there was like a bit of a, the club would feed something, he wants this much or something, and then the fans would always go, I'd love to know, and then we could almost go, well, Mo Salah's right, he should be given a two-year deal, or you can go, is he taking the piss?

24:25The market's uncertain. Revenue's tied and hiring on hold. That's why results-driven companies are using Upwork to keep work moving. Go to Upwork.com today and start hiring proven freelance talent fast. No bulky overhead. No rigid long-term contracts. Just the right expert right when you need them. Work smarter and faster with Upwork. Go to Upwork.com now and find your freelance expert. That's U-P-W-O-R-K dot com. Post a job for free and get started today. You buy a pair of socks, that's two socks. You buy a pair of Bombas socks, that's four socks. Because one purchased is one donated. Socks are the number one most requested clothing item in homeless shelters.

25:05So when you buy a pair of super comfortable Bombas socks, you're also donating a pair. Bombas customers have powered over 150 million donations. So Bombas would like to thank you 150 million times. But we only have like 30 seconds. Go to Bombas.com and use code AUDIO for 20 % off your first purchase. That's B-O-M-B-A-S.com and use code AUDIO at checkout. If you're a custodial supervisor at a local high school, you know that cleanliness is key. And that the best place to get cleaning supplies is from Grainger. Grainger helps you stay fully stocked on the products you trust, from paper towels and disinfectants to floor scrubbers.

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26:29I never used to talk to anyone before the game, like my own family You open the paper and rugby's on its knees and you're like, is it? He's the most hated man in Wales If I've got something to say, I'll say it What's the worst injury you've all had? I broke my nose in New Zealand on Saturday and played on the Wednesday. Breaking your nose is the worst thing ever. I can't not play. I had 14 stitches down the front there. I said, I don't need anaesthetic, just do it. And they're like, legend. You're hard ass, mate, hard ass. Are we excited? Oh, yeah. Vicious rumour is we're recording a podcast called Stick to...

27:02Rugby. Stick to rugby, that's it, not football. Not football. I couldn't think of a better group of old men that I'd like to hang out with. A brand new podcast that dives into the game we love like never before. Stick to rugby. We'll talk rugby, but not the usual chat. Mike Johnson, hard as ****. Get it out of it. We'll cover the big talking points, but we'll share the great stories too. I lost once in Scotland. It was the worst day of my life. And then I appeared on the front page of the News of World the following week.

27:32Look at Flats there, holding a ball. He won Man of the Match once and didn't touch the ball. Big opinions. The number of people playing rugby is going down and down. And then that needs to change. And some wicked guests. You need to widen the audience a bit. Who have you got on your phone book? Jude Law, Ray Winston, Daniel Craig. I don't know. And that's a wrap. Wrap. This is the one rugby podcast you can't miss. Make sure you subscribe to Stick to Rugby, brought to you by Defender. I was just thinking about like maybe 20 years ago, maybe a little bit more, showing my age a bit, but you used to always hear about tapping up, see some grainy images of players meeting some chief exec somewhere.

28:13And nowadays it's never really spoken about, but we always hear that clubs have agreed terms with a player before they've even agreed a fee with their club and stuff. Is Tapping Up just more accepted now? I know it kind of just popped up recently, was it City were getting spoken about because they kind of made a young kid potentially break his contract with his club. But is Tapping Up just accepted? Is he breaking the rules again? Again, yeah, 116 now. Well, you had the infamous Ashley Cole case back in the day, and that was for a particular set of reasons. Real meet in Kenyon as well. Yeah, exactly.

28:48And then, if you remember Van Dijk and Klopp meeting Van Dijk in Blackpool, I think it was the... On the rollercoaster, yeah. I thought he didn't sign.

28:59And the longer and shorter it is, is that technically under all the different rules and regulations, the selling club has to give permission to the buying club to be able to speak to the player. Now, a lot of the time it can actually happen that the selling club can give permission before they've agreed the fee. It doesn't necessarily need to be that way. There are obviously times where maybe selling clubs aren't aware that personal terms and others are being discussed. Ultimately, it only usually comes out into the press when the selling club and the buying club can't agree what that amount will be.

29:32And then the selling club will go, you've been tapping up our player. And that's usually done as leverage in order to obviously then increase the transfer fee because then they would possibly make a complaint to the EFL or the Premier League accordingly. So I don't see it in truth because if I was the lawyer, I'd say don't do it because you're breaking the rules. Adam, it happens. Sorry, sorry. Go for it. It happens. Tapping up happens all the time. Did you ever get tapped up? No, never. I never? No, no, no. No, no, no. But tapping up happens all the time. You'll negotiate with a player. Well, I say negotiate.

30:08The manager, I'm pretty sure, Sir Alex would have done it, I'm pretty sure he would have done. He'll ring the player, they'll get everything agreed with the agent, and this is even before they speak to the club. And then they'll go to the club and say, we're all sorted, wages sorted, appearance money, bonus money, whatever it is, and then right now we've just got to sort it out with the club. So then you go to the club and you agree with the club and the club will say, right, you can speak to the player now. But do you know what I mean? It's all really done. There's no point speaking to the club if you don't know the player wants to come.

30:38No, no, I was just curious because it just seems more accepted and just kind of more taken now, whereas in the past you'd have people will grass on you if you don't pay the fee and all that kind of stuff. I tapped William Rooney up. Yes. Is that when he was about to go to Newcastle? No, I did get asked to make a phone call to him at his house. So I rang him. How did that go? Well, it signed for us, so I didn't get any fucking reward for it. Oh, 5%. Luke you want to ask you've probably got a lot of questions I've got a few questions 115 the first one is the Haaland deal because like everyone was kind of I think everyone would have expected Haaland to sign a new deal but it's nearly 10 years like what's going on with that yeah I think I think there's a few things I think the first thing is Chelsea started this trend obviously a little bit ago and you know Top Boley and the new consortium coming in giving players long-term contracts benefit supposedly is then you only need to renegotiate or you don't need to renegotiate and then those figures go up year on year the problem as cara talked about previously was what happens when he does really well then the agents ask for a renewal and then they renew again and then they renew on even longer term for for higher amounts but i think with um harlan specifically it's the outlier of the outlier like i always think you think about football in terms of world sport now you have Mahomes with the Chiefs and we're talking about NFL signing sort of a 10 year deal worth 450 mil I almost feel like Harland is in a different position but the quarterback of Man City for the next decade he's the guy that you build your franchise slash team around more or less and regardless of what happens in the next week month or five years time he's the guy that becomes synonymous with Manchester City over the entirety of his career yeah I'm just thinking there from the opposite point of view.

32:37You're saying if they do well then it's great, carries on. If they do badly, as we've seen, you're stuck with a player on£354, what is it, a million pound, I don't know what it is, but we've been stung at United many times signing players on five, six year contracts on a lot of money. All of a sudden, two or three years down the line, they become worse players, which has happened to a lot of players we sign, and you're stuck with them for a few years. Madrid, Chelsea, all the problems there, that's a bad one. You're still now, you're stuck when I'm played, you can't get rid of these players. The huge problem is that you're trying to future-proof the upside, but what happens on the downside?

33:14And a lot of the time it can be, and you see it all the time, like loyalty works both ways, either the club want you or the club want to sell you on or otherwise. But when you're the agent and the player and you're signing a seven-year deal and don't want to move, then what do you do? You either ask, well, I'll take two years more salary and then we'll go somewhere else. Or I'm staying put, I'm on good terms, but it significantly weakens the position of the club. That's always the case. When the player knows that he's got a very long-term deal, then it doesn't have to go anywhere. The threat is, you know, putting out onto the bomb squad and not playing matches, but that's the...

33:49A lot of them don't care, yeah. This is a lot about Chelsea, really. This almost feels like a bit of a one-off with City, but Chelsea feel as if they've gone full in for it. They've had a lot of criticism from people like us because we've never really seen it before. Now, do they know something that we don't, Chelsea? You know, they're the only sort of football club who've sort of done it en masse, really. It feels like everybody who comes in signs a seven, eight, nine-year deal. Well, originally, if you remember, when they started doing it, I know you've had Kieran on before talking about amortisation of the length of the contract, basically.

34:22But then the Premier League and UEFA changed it so that you could only amortise the transfer fee and the salary over five years. So it stops at that five-year cutoff point. I'm going to talk about something that hasn't really been discussed before and is the most boring thing you can imagine. But when there's been negotiations we've done with Chelsea, the actual issue a lot of the time is inflation. So if you imagine the cost of money now is the cost of money in eight years' time. In eight years' time, it's a lot less. So actually, unless there's inflation clauses in contracts, which most of the time there are not, that player unless they're doing a lot better and getting those benchmarks is on possibly considerably less money in real terms in eight years time than they would be right now I wanted to ask you about that because people sometimes say oh the player's guaranteed there's money for eight years let's say but I used to always think when I was a player we used to always sign four year deals at Liverpool and every two two and a half years you'd be looking to get a new deal and I'd almost think I'll back myself because if I get a new deal I should get a bit of a jump up in wages whereas if you're on the same deal for 7 or 8 years they can keep you on that that was always my fear that's what I'm thinking when you're thinking about 8 or 9 year deals I think when the money is it is now but you have to take inflation into account because in 5 years time as well you might be worth more money if you go the way you want to go and as you said we probably signed 5 year deals and you got to with 2 years left it was almost right to negotiate if you're doing well especially then you are going to expect that so it's a difficult one as a player as well I think to and the club's always in control then in Chelsea's example the club is always in control because you're never going to get down to 12 months 18 months 2 years 2 and a half years when the pressure ramps up unless it's Liverpool unless it's Liverpool Alex you want to get involved don't you about the situation with Arteta when you first joined the club yeah well I was going to ask a couple of things I think the the PSR because I've heard some rumours about sort of PSR with Arsenal that we're okay on the Premier League side but not on the UEFA side and I'd be interested in how that sort of works I'd also love to hear about yeah when Arteta came in and also the Declan Rice deal I know you were across that three questions in one there you are which ones do you want me to go to first up to you I'll go PSR and UEFA so yeah the rules are basically different so Premier League rules is basically you can't lose more than£105 million over a three year rolling period.

37:00The UEFA rules now are basically squad cost management rules which is you can't, from next season it will be you can't spend more than 70 % of what you spend on, 70 % of revenues of what you spend on agents on transfers and on wages so there's a difference there basically Second question was Arteta. Yeah, it's the same bit. It was a bit about when he came in, about trying to get high earners off the books and how that can sort of, you know. It's exactly the same issue, is that when you've got high earners that are not necessarily performing to the best of their ability on the pitch, how do you incentivise them to leave?

37:34And usually the way you incentivise them is to incentivise them by paying them off a certain amount of their contract, which obviously has short-term pain because you're having to account for that quicker than you otherwise would do in terms of settlement. and you're having to incentivize them to leave at the same time when actually for some clubs that want to buy, you're trying to convince them to buy the player, there's no resale value. So the question you get is, do you want to get transfer fee? Maybe, maybe not. How much are you going to have to pay them if they've got two or three years left on their deal?

38:04And are you willing to take that short-term pay in in order that you might not be able to spend in that next window or two, knowing later down the line that once that's happened, you can then go again. Was that a thing in you know when people talk about managers we always look at our tetter don't we and sometimes we look at Jürgen Klopp and say oh it took a few years to get going is that one of the reasons why when people look at our tetter and say oh we finished 8th twice was that the reason why they had to take that short term pain Yeah and I think that's kind of we're approaching a point now as fans where we're sort of going we're okay to accept that but then you know a couple of years down the line we're looking and we're going we sort of want to see the fruits of that I'd love to hear about the Rice deal I don't know about that.

38:44I was just going to talk on one thing on that bit, which is the two things that make a massive difference to be able to spend decent amounts of money is obviously reducing costs, but it's actually additional revenue. And usually it's Champions League revenue. And that makes a big difference when you don't finish Champions League. It can be the equivalent of 100, 150 mil extra year. Now, after bonuses and that, maybe we're talking 70 or 80 mil to be able to spend. so I think that's a really important element and on Declan stuff look, it was amazing to be involved in that it was a really difficult transaction for loads of different reasons obviously you have clubs like in any deal haggling over price but ultimately it was really great to be involved in it and get the shirt and the picture with Declan I bet you got more than that I was just going to ask you

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41:20Daniel, where do agents, I know it's probably simple, but how do agents know where to start with a player's salary? Do you know what I mean? I had an accountant did mine, and he looked after. The five of us, we were giving them as kids from 18 years of age. He still works for me. Well, works for me. He still does all the stuff. I do now. So he had a good idea of salaries, what everybody was on. How do agents? He probably obviously do speak to each other. Do players speak to each other in dressing rooms as well? It's a great one. So the usual question is, why do you need an agent full stop? And I work with a load of good agents that do brilliant work for all of their clients.

41:54And the thing is that I think it's sometimes easier not to have an agent for a player when they're renewing a deal rather than finding another club and then having to do a lot of the work there. But the reason why there's always that middle ground is I always think the best agents are out there in the market working out the market value for that player, regardless of whether it's a renewal with the deal or elsewhere. and ultimately it's that inside intel that you know you ask a family member a brother or sister just to do a deal and they'll be like great but i don't know who i don't know what the benchmark is i don't know you know what the loyalty fees are how much should i earn as an agent all of those type of things and the thing that's becoming a lot more common these days is there's a whole raft of really good data and i'm not the data guy but data analytics companies that are giving incredible insights for renewals of contracts and for transfers.

42:46So for example, they'll go, well, I think my players should be earning 100 grand a week. And then actually the data analysis will actually be like, actually, in comparison for this player and this league, this club at this age with this trajectory, they should be on this number. And the interesting thing I find is it's not necessarily for that negotiation between the agents and the player and the club. It's sometimes for the club then to go back and justify why they should be spending that amount of money on that player for that amount of time and then resell value and all of that type of stuff.

43:18You hear a lot now, don't you, about clubs paying the agent. I think when we were playing, well, players obviously still pay their agents, but I think when we were doing it, you were talking about giving 5%, 10 % possibly of your wages to your agent. Does that stuff still go on? or is it a percentage or do they pay him a lump sum? Or do the club pay him? Depends if you want to really hear about tax or not, Paul. That's the question. No, go on. I'll give you the 30 second though, which is basically what happens is as a benefit to the player now, even though there is a rep contract between the player and his or her agent that says I'll pay you 5%, I'll pay you 10%, as a benefiting kind, which is like a company car or medical insurance, the club will pay the agent on the player's behalf.

44:06That's what used to happen with me. And that's what always happens. Now, the issue is that people and players sometimes don't realise is there's a tax on the benefiting kind. So even though you don't pay your agent, you still have to pay HMRC 50 % of that. You have to pay the tax. So I should be expecting a letter.

44:28How does it work with, you said that to me then, about a lot of top players now, it feels like parents and family members are getting involved. And I think a lot of that is down to the fact that they see this agent come along who hasn't been there, you know, at the academy when they were 10 years of age, taking them to and from football games. You think this agent turns up when you're 18 and you're on 150 grand a week and he's just pocketed whatever, you know, half a million quid, a million quid. Is this a problem with family members getting involved? Have they got the skill set for it, basically?

45:03Yeah, I mean, I think it's somewhere in between is always the thing. I see some family members and families do it brilliantly when they have their tax accountants, they have their lawyers, they have their data analysts, they have a proper team around them, and it's structured and done really well. There's another side where actually family members will actually engage a really good agent to help them with that process and maybe split monies and see how that all goes. And then there's obviously some that think they can do it themselves. And you're totally right. Like suddenly thinking you can go from a normal job to negotiating a multimillion pound contract and think you know it first time around is incredibly difficult to be able to do.

45:40It's not saying it's impossible. But the other bit as well, which has changed very recently, is agents used to be able to used to be anyone used to necessarily be an agent. You just had to sign a form basically and say you're a good character and you can be an agent. And from last year or the year before, FIFA have now imposed a new exam. So it's actually a difficult exam. So the only way you can pass the exam and be an agent is you pass the exam and then get registered with FIFA and the FA. Shane, I want to ask you about the Declan Rice transfer that's just come up there. I mean, what are your feelings on him, that transfer?

46:15You know, is that one of them you think, I wish he'd be the captain, but you've got a lot of money for him as well. What was your feeling? Well, you say a lot of money, I think it's cheap. It should have gone for a lot more, in honesty. I remember there was one press conference, right? We were like, how much is Declan Rice worth? and he said it's going to take the Bank of England for him to leave. And we thought, oh, that's a great line. We'll definitely use that. But I mean, you spoke about earlier in terms of Declan and I struggling to like a number eight or whatnot. But West Ham, he was sensational.

46:39Amazing. The best player every week. And I remember at the time, West Ham fans were like, look, this guy is the real deal. He's the real deal. But other fans were like, I'm not so sure, I don't see it. We played for England, a bit underwhelming. I remember there was one game against, I think it was Zagreb in the Europa League. Got the ball in the halfway line and scored a terrific solo goal. and they go to show what he could do in his locker. And at West Ham, he wanted to develop more into a box-to-box player. So when he did leave, a lot of West Ham fans were like, oh, our best player's gone, wanted to build around him.

47:10And I was quite disappointed when he came back and West Ham fans started booing him. I think he didn't deserve that. He's such a great player for the club. But look, the club used the money to rest in the squad and be able to build more depth as a result of it. West Ham's a club that, this season, have changed manager and then all the staff goes. I mean, what's the financial hits on that, Daniel? You know, when you see, like, you know, get rid of the manager, get a new one in. I mean, I can imagine, you know, people at the top end of the club are looking at the financial situation of that as well as, you know, maybe having to buy a manager or, you know, a close as well to get...

47:43Is that a big... Must be a huge expenditure. It is, but the clever clubs are doing it well. So, on manager contracts, you know, a lot of the stuff that I'm dealing with is all around the termination clause, as you could imagine. and so a lot of it will be key performance indicator related so for example give a one idea is let's just say there's a manager that whose club should be going for champions league every season and then don't qualify for the champions league in a particular year regardless of whether they got a one-year deal or a five-year deal there might be a clause that then says well if you don't qualify for the champions league for that season then we can sack you and the compensation will be two mil for example there might also be other clauses that a good lawyer draft around actually being like well if we sack you or if you decide to go anywhere else and we'll pay you let's say installments for the next year or whatever else it might be if you get another job then our commission our compensation to you finishes because you've got your money for your next deal so really what you want to try and do is the club can usually in a position of strength is to be able to limit the payout in the event that a sacking happens and maximise the payout if there's a buyout, for example, and then your manager is going somewhere else.

48:55Do clubs actually employ agents? I'm thinking of the, I can't remember what the Portuguese fellas call it, the big Portuguese player. Mendez, yeah. You look at Wolves saying, oh, Portuguese players, do clubs do that or is that something that doesn't happen? Yeah, so the way you'd always look at it is selling club can have an agent, player will have an agent, and the buying club can have an agent, and sometimes there's interlinkages between them. And the way that usually a selling club agent will be remunerated is a percentage of the transfer fee. So if you can imagine, an agent will come to a club and say, Player A, they're worth 50 mil, I think I can get 70 mil for you.

49:35So for that 20 mil difference, I'll take X percentage. And everybody's happy because ultimately the club get more than they thought the value would be for that player when selling. So why does a club need to employ an agent to bring players in? What's the director of football doing? Should that not be his role in negotiating and getting good prices, good wages? Yeah, it can be. So usually what happens is the player's agent will be paid on behalf of the player for player services and also the buying club for buying club services. So that will usually be making sure that that player, when they're coming in, is integrated well, wants to come to the club, is doing all the right things from a PR and rep management perspective.

50:18So the player's agent can also be paid by the buying club too. Flav, you must have a few questions. Spurs have just signed Mattis Tell, or have we signed him? I don't know, because Man United pulled out because the upfront transfer fee was, or the loan fee, was significant enough that it didn't necessarily guarantee that Mattis Tell was going to remain at the football club. What I understand it to be, and this is probably incorrect, is Spurs have paid a fee up front for the loan and then there's an option to buy him for 45 million euros, 50 million euros, whatever it is. The confusion we have is who has the power over deciding that transfer?

50:55Can Mattis tell in the summer, say this club is mental, I need out? You'd definitely say that. It probably would, I would. Or the club say, you know, you've essentially agreed the transfer in principle, we're activating that option. What's the likelihood there? Yeah, usually, and I don't know that deal in particular, but usually what will happen is if there's a loan with an option for a permanent, the option will almost certainly be at the club's obligation. And usually it will be based on objective criteria, which is if we have played you a certain amount of games, if we have qualified for Champions League or otherwise, I'm not sure how likely that is for the moment.

51:36and then what will obviously have to happen at the same time in order to crystallise that option is he'll have to have agreed personal terms already on the deal and the agent will have had to agree the commission structure as well. So all of those docs will have had to be put in place on the chance that then the option is crystallised at the end of the season. So it is on Tottenham to sign that player. Mattis Tell can't necessarily just run away. He'll try. Can he run away? I'm not sure that's a legal concept. Daniel, we speak about Daniel Levy a lot. I mean, from you standing back or maybe doing deals with him, I mean, would you class him as one of the best operators or can you understand the frustration?

52:21Where are you with someone the way he runs as a football player? Well, I'm always of the view, you know, it depends how you classify success and success in football is classified loads of different ways. Is it winning the transfer window? Is it qualifying for the Champions League? Is it avoiding relegation? Is it making profit? Is it winning trophies? And all the rest of it. Now, Spurs is one of the only clubs over a sustained period of time that doesn't make substantive losses. So in some ways, they've won my table of good fortune. Whether that's any validation at all, that's a different story.

52:50But the real point, I think, is ultimately, like Liverpool, like Brentford, Brighton have done for a number of years, is you've got to get that recruitment right. It's not like Spurs haven't spent money, just like other clubs. and if you get that recruitment right by putting the right structure in place you are only measured by your on-field success in the end no one cares whether you make millions of losses so long as it doesn't lead to bankruptcy but what you've ultimately got to do is ensure some type of glory and unfortunately for spurs the issue is is that on a consistent basis if the the general benchmark is are 50 of your transfers successful or not and if you are over that threshold you're doing pretty well if you're under it obviously there are issues and unfortunately for some clubs that threshold has been under for a particular period of time and over but I think there's a discrepancy in what a successful transfer is for the fans it might be Dominic Solanke scoring 15 goals at the minute the club are looking at bringing in these incredibly talented kids for their age and the upside of the transfer fee five to five years down down the line and now it may turn out that these clutch of young players that we've got coming through turn Tottenham into a superpower in the Premier League, the likelihood is that, you know, we would demand big transfers.

54:02So for the club and Daniel Levy, it's our feeling that he will look at Archie Gray and if he can get, you know, double the transfer fee in five years' time, that's a success. But for us as fans, that isn't a success. That's just selling off talent for the sake of the bottom line. I feel this is like a therapy session for you. I'm glad we can be a part of it for you.

54:31Quinny, I'm going to bring you in. I was just thinking, as Daniel said before, the revenue brought in by Champions League football, but more often than not, I think it's only just one team who get into it. Is the fact that you've been so successful in getting into the Champions League now for so many years, does that almost kill the competitiveness in the SPL, even obviously between the two giants up there? Yeah, it does make a big difference because it's just an extra influx of cash that isn't available through TV deals or sponsorship to end the competition, obviously. But this year, Celtic are on for record-breaking turnovers and everything else.

55:08Like Liverpool, somebody said it's 100 mil from what they've got. Scotland don't get as good a share on the TV split as England and Italy and whatever. And I've seen Keir and Maguire reporting Celtic already have clipped about 80 million from this transfer window. So it was actually one thing I wanted to ask when I came here today for this segment, was with the UEFA stuff that we've got going on as well, it does feel like across Europe there may be a bit of a, you know, maybe it's taken out of Scotland because, you know, we're getting all this money coming in, but maybe across Europe there may be a wee bit more of a levelling of maybe the playing fields.

55:39One of the things that makes the Premier League so good is there's Champions League players in every squad, you know, like quite clearly. You know, they look at Paquetas and Guimaraisses and these kind of guys that don't win the leagues, don't win the Cups, but they're like proper Champions League players sort of thing. So it's definitely taken a bit of competition out domestically, especially before the stuff that Rangers have had over the last couple of years. But I look at it more as I'm coming down here and I'm looking at your squads and all this stuff that's down here and thinking, in a couple of years, again, not to wrap it on, but I look at clubs in England, Brighton, Bournemouth, they've had 80 million of TV revenue or so come in for three, four years and look at the squads and look at how competitive they can be.

56:19Celtic, after three, four, five years of 80 million, 100 million pound coming in a year on top of selling O 'Reilly's and whoever else so I guess I'm kind of taking a question and throwing that across but do you think that all the UEFA guidelines that are getting imposed on everyone that plays in UEFA competition as well as the Champions League being more of a competition you know there's ten games or eight games in the group stage guaranteed and all that kind of thing do you think we might see more of those Champions League players not ending up with the greatest respect always at the Bournemouths and the Brightons because it's a Premier League team and they might end up at Celtic, Benfica, PSV, these sorts of places maybe?

56:58Well, I think the damning stat, whether it's a good thing or a bad thing, is, you know, usually the Deloitte top 20 money league, usually around 12, 13, 14 of those teams are Premier League teams. And so you query why that is. It's usually the Premier League distribution, City earning over 172 mil for winning Premier League, you know, another almost 100 and beyond million euros for the Champions League participation, all the commercial revenues, everything else that comes along with it. I think the interesting thing that Jamie mentioned is actually around competitive balance. I think there's got to be a real worry.

57:32Some people say worry, some people say concern around whether the top teams in Europe and the same point on Super League and everything else that came from it are going into a different stratosphere. Now, the whole point of the latest Champions League iteration was to ensure that there wasn't going to be a super league to bring more money to the bigger teams but the bigger teams are still going to be spending huge huge numbers the question is whether this format actually helps competitive balance to a degree is it going to distribute the monies a little bit more equally or are we going to see the last you know quarterfinals and semifinals with the biggest teams competing as usual okay daniel i'm going to throw a few questions at you uh what's the most ludicrous close you have seen in a deal?

58:18I can't say too much for confidentiality just in case I get struck off as a lawyer and then I can't be a lawyer. But the best one I saw was Neymar's one at Barcelona. So when he was there, apparently he had a clause that said every month he could have eight of his best mates coming over from Brazil to have a party in Barcelona. I'd love to be able to have drafted that party clause, but that would have been a good one. What has been the most lucrative transfer you have seen? For who? You.

58:50Well, I would say it's usually the ones you don't expect, actually. So sometimes the free transfers can be the most significant of all time. I'd say even a long time ago, Steve McManaman's deal to Madrid, because there's no transfer fee. Barca came in for him six months, nine months before. We're going to pay Liverpool a fortune. McManaman was on a huge wage at Madrid, and that was obviously 25 years ago, so now maybe. Are the transfer deals getting done now for the summer? Is that all happening now? Yeah, 100%. So, you know, the slight issue is that for the clubs that are thinking about relegation or otherwise, then that's obviously the priority.

59:29And it's difficult to be able to plan three or four eventualities in a time. But from everyone from 12, 13 upwards, you know you're going to be getting 100, 120 mil from the Premier League and you go from there. and then the top teams are obviously thinking in different ways around how they're going to recruit or otherwise. So I would say absolutely the top agents and the top chief execs and technical directors, they're thinking three windows ahead usually. Now I will always phone up the agents I work with and be like, oh tell me what's going on next so you can, I can help and plan and do. A lot of the time it's still very reactive.

1:00:03Manager gets sacked, player gets injured, formation changes, whatever else it might be. So I think the agents are always thinking, which are the teams that have a longer-term strategy in place that we know that this is going to be the first one that hits the market or this is going to be the one? And then, as you can imagine, what happens is a big transfer fee then whittles its way down into the other clubs and then those clubs have money to spend and then that gets recycled, et cetera. Okay, brilliant. Thank you, Daniel. And that is it for another episode of The Fan Debate brought to you on Skybet and we'll see you next time.

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