Man City’s Uncertain Future, Fans Demand Punishment & Pep’s Legacy Tainted | The Overlap Fan Debate

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2:37Hi, it's Jamie here. The Fan Debate has a new hole on the official Overlap Fan Debate channel. To make sure you don't miss an episode, search the Overlap Fan Debate wherever you get your podcasts and hit that follow button. I would like to believe them, as I say. Do you believe them? Come on. That's enough. That game's a sham. This season's a sham. You know, how long is this allowed to go on for? If City win the league this season, what are we meant to all think about that? Every penny they spend from this point on is going to be so overly scrutinised. What ownership group are worse? the Glazers or the group like Oman City.

3:15There's a strong likelihood that something has gone straight. You had a lot of fans saying, well, why don't we just cheat? Why don't we find a way to artificially inflate all this? Because up until literally a week and a half ago when that tweet dropped, there had never been a serious consequence to any team breaking the rules. We drew two all at Stamford Bridge and we're walking out going, we can't be dropping points like this. We cannot be dropping points.

3:43Hello and welcome back to the Fan Debate brought to you by Skybet. I'm pleased to welcome Stuart Pearce onto the sofa for his debut on the show and as well as our loyal supporters as well. And we've got Martin Ziegler back on the show because we know it's going to be hotly debated, this one, because of what's happened in the last couple of weeks. Stuart, I want to start with you, just about what you've been doing in the international break. You were over in Croatia. What did you make of the England performance? Well, over the three games that I've seen at the moment, I thought that the Spain game, aside from the result, was a fantastic game of football, really exciting.

4:20And I think they needed that at Wembley after the hangover at the World Cup and whatever. Needed a result and needed a win, to be fair, in Czech Republic and got that. And then the 7-0, well, I didn't see that coming. Croatia were awful, but you can't take it away from England. We got cutting edge at the moment at the front end of the team. and it was a brilliant game to watch. Yeah, they were fantastic. But the international break is not normally the busiest or the most exciting for a lot of football fans. But Martin, has this been one of the busiest international breaks you can remember for obvious reasons?

4:58Yeah, it's certainly the busiest I've ever had because I always look forward to the international break. Things are going to quieten down on the weekly Premier League, VAR front, etc. But yeah, this has been incredibly busy because of Manchester City and what the Premier League's independent commission has published. Okay, Matt, you've just mentioned that. That's what we're obviously going to start with, Manchester City. I think everybody, it feels like in the country, has been waiting for a verdict on this. And I think Manchester City people as well. You know, it's been hanging around for so long with the Premier League now.

5:35Where are we up to right now? Now, there's been so much, listen, it's in the papers every day, everyone is speaking about it on social media. But how is this sort of story, it feels like every couple of days there's a new thread to the story. Where are we right now? So I think now we're in a position where, so last Tuesday the Independent Commission's report was published and found guilty of more than 100 charges. And we haven't got a sanction now. So I think we'll have a process where there'll be 12 weeks in which the appeal must take place under Premier League rules. And then a finding after that within 30 days.

6:15So that takes you sort of middle of January. I think we'll then probably have the sanctions hearing then if the appeal fails. Or if some of the charges could be proved, some could be upheld. They could all be upheld, but whatever happens, if there are charges proven, then we'll have a sanctions hearing after that. There could be another appeal against that, again within 12 weeks and then 30 days after that. So that will take us up to April. So we should have this done and dusted before the end of the season. But we are now in a sort of holding pattern where there's stories coming out, a lot of media, including myself, examining all the evidence and claims and counterclaims.

7:02I think that will continue going for a bit. But in terms of the actual process, we are now in a bit of a holding pattern until we get the outcome of the appeal. Stuart, how do you feel about it? You've got Lynx to Manchester City, strong Lynx player, manager there. How did you feel when the announcement came out? For me, my first emotion was disappointment for football because I sort of come through the non-league system sort of thing where, I don't know, there was a freshness about it and then all of a sudden we seem to, in football nowadays, talking about things like the Manchester City situation, like VAR.

7:43We're talking about stuff that isn't football related. It is, but it isn't, if you know what I mean. And I think the fans are the ones who are getting shortchanged in all of this. I hope it's resolved quicker than my expectation. I know you're putting time dates on it and we're thinking maybe by January everything will be resolved. I'm not so sure. I think this could run and run and run. I hope I'm wrong. the Premier League need to put down almost an iron fist here and send a message out to all the other clubs as well as Manchester City if they think they've wronged and got it horribly wrong. And what the punishment will be, I wouldn't like to be one of the people making a judgement on the panel to say what is a fit and proper punishment for this situation.

8:35I think if there's going to be a massive fine, I'd like to see the money go to good, maybe go into grassroots football and not just be hovered up somewhere at the Premier League. I'd love to see that, to see the good of the game. Something good come out of it, to be quite honest with you. But whether there's a demotion through the leagues, it could be absolutely anything. I'm almost watching with interest as somebody that when I managed at Man City, we didn't have a bean. We didn't own the ground, we didn't own the club shop. my first major decision I had to make as manager was to sell Sean Wright Phillips otherwise the club go bust it's incredible the journey the club had been on and as that, in the process as we speak going in full circle, time will tell Well, I think we were all waiting with bated breath to get Luke on this show but Luke would you believe is on holiday as every other Manchester City supporter to be good in touch with to try and come on the show.

9:35So, big respect to Nobbins who's come on the show, Manchester City fan. As I said, a lot didn't want to come on. And welcome on your debut. And what a debut and a tough place this is going to be. Give us the Manchester City fan perspective. I mean, it feels like the world's against you. That's what you'll feel. Everybody, every day, it's just pure negativity. What's going to happen to your beloved club? How are you feeling? Yeah, it's really challenging. I would have loved the debut to be a conversation about Enzo Mareska's tactics at City. Obviously, that's not the case. Conflicted, I think, lots of City fans are.

10:14We can't even come to a uniform consensus as to how we should feel. You've got your CEO, your chairman of your club saying, we are innocent, we have this irrefutable evidence. as a fan you want to believe them you want to think that they are being honest there because worst case scenario is they aren't and then obviously the sanctions but when you have as martin was outlining earlier this damning scathing um official judgment that's come out and if you read the the language in it is it is incredibly scathing it's damning it's damning it's using words like concocted, like sham. It's hard to rationalise our leadership saying we've done nothing wrong, we're fine, versus this official rhetoric from the independent commission.

11:01So I would like to believe them, as I say. Do you believe them? Come on. That's enough. Of course he doesn't. I think that there's a strong likelihood that something has gone astray and that there has been some wrongdoing. Of course, I will wait until every single appeal process has happened before reaching an ultimate conclusion. But right now, the latest official document is that they have been found guilty. So you have to treat that decision with the correct amount of weight. Can I ask you a question, if you don't mind? What would be, if you were meeting out a punishment to Manchester City, what would be the worst-case scenario from your point of view and what would be the best-case scenario punishment-wise?

11:50Well, worst-case scenario is the club ceases to exist in some sort of existential crisis. I don't think that that's reasonable, though. So a punishment which is terrible but also reasonable, probably like relegation to somewhere like League 2 or even like non-league as well or the National League. Sorry, I know lots of people have been saying that. Best case scenario is a slap on the wrist and everyone forgets about it. But I think what you've just said there, and that's why I totally get it because all the other fans are nodding their heads, laughing at the situation that you're in. But almost every fan out here, I'm sure, would say exactly the same as you would.

12:29Your football club is your family. You defend them to the hilt. you're going to have to be absolutely 100 % guilty before you're absolutely going, okay, fair enough, fair cop. So I totally get that and understand it from a fan's perspective. But when you look at the people involved, where's your frustration come about the situation that you find? Who you're actually looking at and thinking, this is you. This is, you know, you've put us in this position. So just on that last point you were saying, I do think it's important to distinguish between a fan choosing to continue to support the club versus continuing to support the higher-ups and the people in charge because the two are very, very different things.

13:10Like City existed long before these people broke these rules. It will continue to exist after. So there is a distinction that I do want to make between the two. On that note, I think that you would have to say that the people responsible have to be the ones who City fans, in my opinion, should be directing their frustrations towards. It's not the fans' fault, it's not the fault of the players, like Elliot Anderson wasn't in these commercial meetings and making these decisions, which, as things stand, have found City guilty of breaking all these rules. So it's got to be the people who had the final say, or it's the people who knew or ought to have known.

13:49And I suppose that if the independent commission does name anyone directly, if it does address anyone directly, then you would like to think that those heads are going to roll and they have to be the ones to have that accountability. Yeah, what you've said, I think I have said that in the last week or so, this is not almost Manchester City, the club, this is the owners. You've had different owners before, you'll have different owners after. It's not the players as such, they've just come in, not the supporters. Do you think it's different with Pep? And the reason I say that is because from my own experience as a player, you don't really see the owner or the CEO.

14:23You might see them once every few months after a game, if you've won a big game. But the manager's in contact with them normally. Stuart, you'd know that probably three or four times a day. You're on the phone to the CEO, aren't you? So would that be different in your eyes, the way you look at the players differently than maybe the manager? Because we do know about Mancini's situation. And I did have to smack laugh at Mancini's press conference with Italy where he just said, it's not to do with me. That was years ago. It's their problem. Do you see it differently for Pep? The suggestion being that he's got some sort of accountability, do you mean?

14:54No, what I'm saying is I think he's more... I think when I say the players, I think probably they just signed the contract. But Pep actually being not so much like he's involved in the commercial deals, but the fact that he's involved with those people sort of four or five times a day, daily. I just struggle to think, would he really believe them fully, 100 % what they're saying after what came out about Mancini and different things? I just didn't know if that changed it for you. Not for me, no. I think he's perfectly, I think he was and still is perfectly well within his rights to believe his higher-ups when he's told that.

15:32Again, if we read the independent commission's reporting, this started in, was it, the 0-9-10 season, so way before Guardiola was city manager and had been going way up way before he arrived. So, no, I don't really think that, like, because I have seen people argue that, Should he have known better? Should he have asked these questions and that sort of thing? But I don't think it's his responsibility to continually ask these questions. I think that he's perfectly well within his right to go, well, I'm the manager, it's just my job to get results on the pitch. You tell me what my budget is and then I'll go out and spend it accordingly.

16:06So I don't really think that I personally want to associate like Guardiola with that conversation. There's a lot of talk of Man City going to Anfield and there's going to be this atmosphere and what Liverpool fans are going to be chanting, they're going to have banners. What do you think Manchester City supporters will be like going there? Will it almost, you know, again, us against the world, will they have a banner? Will they have a, you know... Non-stop Poznan from minute zero through to 90. Yeah? No, I think it will be business as usual to the largest extent. I don't think it's going to be like a protest or anything like that from City fans.

16:40I think that we are still going to turn up. We're still going to back the players on the pitch. we're still going to back the team, we're going to want them to do well like any other football fan would do. So of course, it's not just Liverpool, it'll be every single club this season whether they're coming to the Etihad or whether we're going to them. I mean, we've already had these chants of cheats and whatnot for like three and a half years now, that's just going to become exponentially worse. But I think that for the most part, it will just be business as usual and again, it's this distinction between the players haven't done anything wrong if wrong has been done, it is by the people behind the scenes.

17:19I think the problem Man City are going to have this season, if you just think of this season, and Maresca and the players, you're top of the league right now, so the best team in the league early on this season, I just find it very difficult for you to keep that going, because I think every away game you go to is going to be the best atmosphere in that stadium that season, or very close to it, because I think everyone's just sort of baying for blood, but the other supporters here, what do we think is a realistic or a fair punishment for Manchester City because it's obviously all the fans say your clubs have been involved and been hurt by what's happened at Manchester City but what do we think's fair?

17:52What do we think's right? I think they've got to be out of the league because they've cheated over quite an extended period and been found guilty obviously there's subject to the appeal and Man City are denying it but if they are found guilty and the appeal fails well they've what is it over£900 million that they've artificially inflated to be able to create this dynasty there's no way that they can stay in the league for me. There was no way. I've changed my mind on the expulsion thing. When I initially read the story when it came out, I thought the most realistic possibility was they're just going to slap a huge fine on them and a points deduction.

18:24But once you sit and you read the Premier League's write-up of this, the strength of the language they use, it does feel massively like they're laying the groundwork to do, like, we've never seen a team be expelled from the Premier League before and it does feel like that's the direction they're going for. That's probably what they're going to push for, which is, the implications of which are just bizarre. It needs to be so bad that nobody does it again. I mean, I don't know what that is, but it needs to be so bad that when anyone thinks of breaching the rules again, you think, oh, we don't want that.

18:54That's where it needs to be at. And because it was so many years of gaining an advantage, if they did just go down, first of all, are the Championship going to want them? And what club moves on or doesn't get promoted because of that? That's a whole butterfly effect. But if you go down, you can just come straight back up. You might still win a league title before Manchester United do again. So it has to be over a period of time. And so bad that no other club does it again, I think. Kweku? I feel like glass houses right now. I don't want to throw Kweku. Yeah, I agree. They've obviously undermined, and people don't like it, but football's a religion in this country.

19:30And they've undermined the sanctity of the best export in this country. And so they have to be punished with the biggest kind of punishment, not just a fine because we know how deep the pockets of the owners are, but also on the pitch the reason why we love football is this meritocracy and Man City in terms of what they've done with the inflated funds have kind of killed the illusion of football being fair in this country so I agree points deduction the trophies is the most interesting conversation because obviously when it first came out the tribalistic aspect of fans they're talking about give us our trophies give us this I don't think that works you can maybe like null and void those seasons but to give those trophies to other clubs I don't think works in terms of football's an emotional game.

20:12We've seen the games happen already. May night, I don't think you'll feel vindicated with winning the trophy in 2012, or would you? I wouldn't. Do you know what it is for me more? What is the right punishment for when your whole memory of football, essentially for me, I mean, it's not everything, but when the breaches started, it was 2009. I was eight years old at that time. So I'm like, everything that I remember from my footballing memory is tainted now because it was illegitimate. So that Aguero moment, OK, yeah, it was a loss. And that's awful. Probably the first time I cried at a football game, I'm going to be completely honest with you.

20:45Not that I do that often, although Man United... As a Man United fan, you are glad it's changed. Yeah, it can bring me to tears a lot. But I'm like, that's a memory. It's an emotion. It's a feeling. We lost. It's awful. But it's your footballing memory. And it's like, now I look back on that, and I'm like, how am I supposed to feel about that now? Because it wasn't legit. Subject to appeal. Martin, I want to come to you. Man City have lodged their appeal and as Nobans has said you want to believe your supporters or your owners I should say and that's what Manchester City fans are just hoping and praying that they win the appeal can you explain how the appeal works because it's not going through the whole trial again but have Manchester City got much chance of overturning this?

21:31And if they do is it going to take a big leap of faith by the new people in charge to see that they were wronged. Yeah, so it's a separate, it's a new panel. So there's three people on the independent commission. There'll still be another three people. They'll all be like really heavyweight legal people, judges or retired judges. Yeah, so I think they've got a, the city have got a very tough task ahead of them because there's so many charges that they've been found guilty of, more than 100. and they're kind of if you there's some things have come out about the argument they're going to use that the sponsorship money the sham contracts or the disguised funding and the city can argue that this was money that came from the the government to the sponsors and then the sponsors paid it to the club rather than from the owners to the sponsors and the sponsors paid it to the club and well that's just one aspect of it to me there's the whole Roberto Mancini double contract there's players payments that were undisclosed to players and their agents there was a whole something called the Fordham arrangement which was a sort of using image rights so not only were the owners paying Manchester City for their players image rights they were actually

22:55disguising the funding that the players should have had from that. So all these things, very, very serious. And then there's a whole chunk of not cooperating with the Premier League investigation, which is also very serious. So I think it's going to be very difficult. Certainly their biggest hope, I think, will be challenging the sponsorship agreements decision around the disguise funding, the so-called sham settlements. If they do win on that, which might be their best hope, they've still got what then would be the sanction for the other offenses. So I think there's going to be a lot to go for.

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27:08Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan. The Overlap are excited to launch The Overlap Daily. Kicking things off on Friday 9th October with myself, Gary Neville and Mark Goldbridge. Your daily fix of the biggest talking points and debates in football is brought to you by Skybet and Skyvegas. Football. Football. Football. It's all we talk about every day. So, starting Friday, come and join us on Overlap Daily. Every week, Monday to Friday. From 4pm. With a line-up including Stephen Gerrard, Joe Hart, Jamie Redknaut, Ashley Young, Tim Sherwood, Mark Crossley, Duncan Ferguson, Becky Ives and a whole lot more.

27:51Watch on YouTube. And listen wherever you get your podcasts. Overlap Daily. We'll see you soon. Some things belong in football, some things absolutely don't. However, opinions differ. It's time to play Games Gone, Games Back, brought to you by Skybet. So we are joined by three of our fans, Adam, Alfie and Chris and Stuart Pearce is next to me so we've got some topics to discuss Stuart and we're going to decide whether it's games gone or games back so on the back of the leaderboard you have a little look what's on there you know the other side and that's the front the back of it, the front of it so if you pick something from there and we'll decide from top to bottom what are we going with?

28:37goalkeepers going up for corners Are we having that as something? Is that games gone? Is that games back? Should we confer? I wouldn't want it a nil-nil. No? It depends on the context, bro. I could be quite innovative if it's not in the last five minutes, but that's pure football heritage, isn't it? It's iconic. Everyone loves it when I keep up. Games gone is the manager telling you not to go up because he's got everything sort of structured too well. That's 100 % games back. And we had that one last year, didn't we? Was there Benfica in the Champions League? Yeah. It happens every now and then.

29:05It's a real treat, that, and you can't artificially make it happen. Yeah, yeah. It's like such a, it's so circumstantial. Well, I've just come to me now, it's probably very difficult for you to say this game is gone because you actually brought a goalkeeper on. My history of goalkeepers, is playing up front and going up for corners. When I was a non-league player, I used to play and go on a Sunday morning in the West Fulham district because I was contracted at Wildstone, so I couldn't, so I played under an assumed name. I used to go up for every corner, take every free kick, and in the 81-82 season, I outscored our centre-forward.

29:46And that's a true story. So I'm in favour of that. And I'll put Jamo up front. I was going to say, we're not going to talk about David James putting an outfield shirt on and going up for the last ten minutes. It was the worst performance I've ever seen from any player in World Football that day. He looked like a goalkeeper. I thought at 6 '4", he would get on the diagonal. I must admit I give him no information of how to play. He saw himself more as a number 10 in the hole. Right, yeah. So it's a yes from me. Yes, go on then. Game's back. Let's put it in the top. Where are we? Anywhere up there, yeah.

30:18Beautiful. I can't believe I missed Bov, are we? Oh. Right, what's next, Stuart? We have got playing for a draw away from home. Ooh. I mean, that's part of the fabric of football, isn't it? It depends who you are, doesn't it? I'm watching you playing. When it's against my team, I absolutely despise it. When it's me and we've got Arsenal next week. It's disgraceful anti-football and bringing the game into disrepute when it happens to you. It's just sensible, smart play and actually quite switched on when it is you. We're going to do it all season. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I play for football teams that do that at home.

30:58so I'm not really in a position to say otherwise but is there any better feeling when you go to Old Trafford and you play for a draw and you nick them 1-0 that's a win that's a win-win that's not exactly where would we go with that bang in the middle that's bang in the middle neutral defenders you two must have done that at some point European away games that was just go for your 0-0 and get out of there anti-football that's what Johan Cruyff called our team anti-football biggest compliment if Bender could ever have that. Go on, we put a bang in the middle. Yeah. Right, there we go. Back here.

31:33No bang in the middle of the hole, is it? Is that middle in the middle? I'm starting to see why David James is so confused now. That looks like the middle to me, but happy with that? Yeah, we'll go with that. Right, what have we got next then? We've got... Oh, this could be anything. Any sentence that starts Premier League, you panic these days, strangely enough. Premier League fans doing the Poznan. Oh! That's got to be games gone now at the moment. Yeah, we might not have it for long. I was going to say, I think we might see it an awful lot this season. I think I could see every club starting to do that.

32:09Yeah. Slightly cruelly, but I think that could be... Every home game against City. That could be the celebration of the season by the time it goes down. I think it's nicer, isn't it? It's got like... Yeah, they played them and then sort of borrowed it, didn't they? I think that was quite an all right thing. Borrowed it to doing a lot of lifting in that thing. A fortnight ago. That's another charge. Can I take that statement on a bit and say, is it acceptable to do it at an Oasis gig? I think I saw it. I recontextualised it. I think that's probably the next place you're most likely to see it after this season.

32:49I don't know about that one. It's fun, isn't it? It was nice when they brought it in. I like it. It's got games back, as you said. Everyone's going to do it against Man City, aren't they? Now I think we've got a goal. Yeah, definitely back now. Yeah, we'll go games back. There we go. Up here? Yeah. Three substitutes. Oh, games back. Yeah, go back to that. Yeah, yeah, get three subs back. Get three subs back. Yeah. When you started, how many subs did you have? I was very lucky that the first season I was involved with the first team, it went to five subs to sit on the bench. I think you could bring three on, or maybe it was two or three, but having the extra subs just meant you could get on the bench.

33:28So that was good for me. So how many subs is it now? Is it seven? Or there's nine on the bench? So there's nine on the bench? Yeah. Wow. Because they brought it in, they expanded it with COVID, then they just decided to leave it after that, didn't they? Listen, I think it's been, they say they bring it in, maybe to look after players, and also I think managers now, they want to keep players happy. The squads are so big. So how many players are you getting on there? So at least probably 16 players are getting onto the pitch. every game. But I just think if a manager picks the wrong team or he gets his tactics wrong or whatever he does, it's so easy for him to put it right.

34:03And I think a manager should be here. It should, not punish him, but you should only be allowed three changes. If you've messed that team with the team that you've picked, I just think it's an easy cop-out to be able to change half your team. When I started playing non-league, it was either none or one. You know? Well, we're in the age of starters and finishers now, aren't we? A lot of managers have teams they talk about starting games and teams to talk about finishing games. And if you can bring seven players on, that's like absurdly a realistic concept. Get three subs back. Yeah, get three subs back.

34:33That's games back. It's going right at the top, mate. Bosh. There we go. The game's never been more back. You've never been more back than three subs. Oh, this is irritating for me. Players pulling out of international breaks. Oh. So gone for me. That is so gone. Well, you would assume in an age of seven... I'm taking a stray bullet. early doors. You'd assume in an age of seven substitutes there's no need to pull out of international games because you'll just be kept perfectly fresh with all the rotation you get in your actual games. I was thinking, it feels like a lot more players in this break have pulled out.

35:08Do you think it's because how the Nations League is seen as opposed to maybe qualifiers for the World Cup or the Euros? No, I think it was because if you could pull out with this international break, you've got a three-week holiday instead of just a two-week holiday. I don't know. I still don't know where the Nations League sits. with footballers themselves, how prestigious they see it. Obviously, UEFA try and make a big deal out of it. There's massive advantages to doing well in it. But whether or not that's trickled down to players being like, hey, do you know what? Imagine if I could add a Nations League trophy to this CV.

35:38I don't know whether they're really... I don't think anyone cares, but you're playing good teams. So it's a good test. It's made the games better. It's made the games a lot better. They're better than the friendlies, aren't they? Way better than the friendlies. What did it actually say? Players pulling out? What are your thoughts on playing? Do you think more players pull out now than they did in yesteryear in mine and Jamie's? There's more emphasis on load management nowadays, isn't there? Like Palmer missing out. Well, he didn't miss out. He sat out, didn't he, because of load management. But he wasn't at the World Cup in the summer, so he's had a summer off.

36:09So he shouldn't really be pulling out at the first sign of fatigue. Yeah, and you can go to the camp, can't you, and play a game. You don't have to play all four games. You can hang out. Statistically, more players pulled out in my era and his era than they do now. Only five pulled out the squads this time round. And to be fair, since Gareth was the manager, very few pulled out the squads. Is that because Alex Ferguson's no longer managing? That helps. I was part of an under-20s team that went to a World Cup in Colombia in 2011 that was outside the international window, so we had to get permission from the clubs for the players to come.

36:54Do you know how many players pulled out the squad? All of them. 56. 56 players? 56. Of the tournament? I could have got in. No, of England. I'm not exaggerating, because it was outside the international window, you had no jurisdiction on taking the players out the clubs, so the clubs had to say, yes, you can take them or not. and every time we contacted them, they went, no, no, no. How did you get on? 56 pulled out. So you're putting that pretty long. We had Jack Butland in and a couple of Sadu Beriano and a few others. Adam Smith was on that. We got to the quarter fight. In fact, we broke a UEFA record.

37:35We didn't score a goal in qualification. All the games, nil-nil, and qualified as third best team. Nice. Didn't score a goal in the first knockout stage and won the penalty shootout and then didn't score a goal in the quarters and went home. He didn't score a goal the whole tournament? No. Well, he went on to the 60th. Brilliant. So that's got to be Games Gone. Yeah. I don't like people. It's bad. It's bad. It can't be Games Gone. Games Gone. In fact, I'm going to put it right down the bottom. I really detest that. It's still hurting. That is it for today's segment of Games Gone, Games Back. See you next time.

38:10APPLAUSE

38:19Gareth, I want to bring you in because probably Liverpool, one of the teams who have probably been hurt most by the situation with City. You think of that great rivalry between Klopp and Guardi, all those great games. How do you feel as a Liverpool supporter and you watch that and a lot of the time Liverpool just missed out on a lot of big trophies? Sad. I think it's sad for football. It's sad for us. It's sad for football fans right across the country. It's sad that the league has been tarnished and tainted. And you can't help but think about all of those moments that you could have had that were taken away from you.

38:55I urge you, Si, and I totally agree, that football is about moments. Football's about being with your family and friends and sharing that moment when you've won and going out on the aisle. I've said on here before, we always said, because we waited 30 years for a title, imagine that pint when we finally win it. And I've got a picture in my back room of me and all my mates with a pint. And, you know, that was that pint when we finally won the league. And that's how it is. You know, and the idea, you know, give them trophies back and all this kind of... You know, I don't want to be like, you know, I don't know, mowing the lawn and I get a text message saying you won the league in 2012.

39:34Do you know what I mean? Like, I want to experience it at the time. I want to go on that rollercoaster of winning it. And it just feels like it was a totally unfair fight. I think we were saying that anyway. You know, all of this has been in plain sight for years. You know, on our podcast, The Late Challenge, we always said, you know, read the Spiegel, read it, read what's out there. You know, how can anyone be defending what's going on? And it's mad to my mind that it's took this long to get to where we are and even madder that we're going to carry on. You know, like, you know, I think about this season right now, I think about going to Anfield and I'm like, well, that game's a sham.

40:09This season's a sham. You know, how long is this allowed to go on for? What if City were in the league this season? What are we meant to all think about that? And, you know, it's been like this for ages for me. You know, I think when City have been winning titles and, you know, all the rest of it, I've just been shrugging my shoulders. And I've just been like, I don't really feel anything about it because I know you're cooking the books and I've read the Spiegel and I don't think it's fair. So, you know, it's never felt right to me that they were doing what they were doing. And this only underlines that.

40:40So, yeah, like I say, it just feels sad. And, you know, you look at, you know, even every aspect of football, the debates we have all the time, you know, how good was Klopp, how good was Guardiola. Well, how good was Klopp to win against this machine that was making up its own rules? What you've just said there, very passionate about your own club. And I can imagine there'll be a lot of supporters like that going to Anfield as well. What are you expecting from Liverpool, Manchester City off the pitch? Yeah, I mean, it'll be pretty white-hot, I imagine, at Anfield. I think everyone is angry. Everyone will have something to say.

41:17I think you'll feel that in the ground. I think, as you said, there's likely to be chance banners and so on. I really hope that fans are given that opportunity to say what they think and express what they think. Why do you think there's a chance Liverpool would stop a banner going in or stewards would tell? That's happened before. I know, for example, that West Ham, when they were protesting against Brady and Sullivan, was stopped from bringing a banner into Anfield. And I expressed my concern that, you know, that's not right. Do you think John Emery would stop you bringing a banner in about Sheikh Mansour, though?

41:53Well, he shouldn't do, because, you know, you look at what he said, which is not very much, is it, over the years. But when he does sort of pop his head up, he's had a pop. you know there's a tweet knocking around isn't there from 2011 from him where he was like you know this Etihad Airways concert you know who was the runner up who was in second place who did he beat because it was never fair market value was it the prices they were paying I think I was listening to something last night and they were saying when City won the league for the first time under this management under this regime the deal for the sponsorship for the stadium that followed was the biggest in world sport Now, how does that make any sense to anyone?

42:33Why would City get a bigger contract for their stadium than Man United, than Liverpool, than Real Madrid, than Bayern Munich? You know, it never, ever added up. And so, you know, the idea that they can somehow get themselves back off the hook, I'm not having it whatsoever. And I just think it will go on and on, but hopefully it goes on and on in a positive manner. They've got unlimited wealth. They've acted in an arrogant manner. They've ran the club in an arrogant manner. and with that unlimited wealth they should try and put the wrongs right you know what I mean and I don't know where that ends I haven't got a legal background but it could be players saying well I should have had a win bonus it could be you know it could go on forever you've already heard that Liverpool are among the clubs that have reserved the right to throw a legal challenge at City when this is done and you know some are saying that would be at least 200 million quid so they could be on the hook you know without sanctions for another billion quid and for me the thing what we were just talking about what should be done what should be done is the football regulator should use its power to get rid of the owners I totally agree with what you said this isn't Man City or the fans and that should be they should be given the opportunity to rebuild their club in the correct manner and the only way that can happen to my mind is get rid of these owners I said that straight so I didn't know how the owners could continue if the fans are guilty of this and the problem being is my worry for it is it won't be a case of if they lose the appeal, OK, yeah, we'll get on, we'll take our punishment.

44:05I think because of where they're from, the power they have, the finances they have, they'll never admit they were wrong in this. And they'll always say, we were wronged. This was a sham-pike. The Premier League, as such, are different people. And I think they'll keep just dragging it on. And I think it'll just drag the game into the gutter. And this almost needs sorting out for the game, but also for Manchester City, their support to move on from it. and I don't think they'd ever be able to move on from it with those people. And where does that end up? I mean, you think about, I know you, Jamie consumed football from all over the world and probably more than anyone else almost.

44:40What do you think when you think of the Italian league now? Exactly. You're always that much away from saying, well, they were all cheating and that scandal and Juventus. And when they started handing titles back, I mean, everyone laughs at Inter for that title they were given because it wasn't real. I think they call it like the paper title or the cardboard title. And other fans laugh at their fans for almost accepting and celebrating that because it's not real, is it? And that's what you'd have if you started handling trophies back out in this country as well. No, I totally agree, Gareth. Hugh, I want to come to you as a player.

45:14I mean, you know what you were like as a player, as aggressive and as competitive as probably any player we've ever seen in English football. How would you react if you were coming up against Manchester City? Would this give you extra motivation in any way? Yeah, I think so. I think the opposition it would. And I know if I was manager of Manchester City now, you're going to have to sort of almost circle the wagons with the group in the dressing room. Like you said, this isn't anything to do with the players or the manager at this moment in time. You're going to have to lean on that and use it as a positive if you're Manchester City manager and say it's us against the world, that mentality, you know, and see where that takes you.

45:53The opposition, they'll be rolling their sleeves up. As you say, the atmosphere in the stadiums is going to be red hot. It's unbelievable what happens to be Liverpool away this weekend. Do you know what I mean? Incredible. But it's going to be electric, so it's going to stimulate everybody else against City, and it's got to stimulate City against everyone else. And the question I'd like to ask, probably yourself, if there is a demotion of maybe two leagues, three leagues, what is the mentality of the players? Do they say, if it was me and it said it was Nottingham Forest or you at Liverpool, I can't see yourself saying, I'm not staying here, I'm going.

46:32I think you've got a centre-law or had a centre-law to your club. I'm not sure that law will be there. And what that squad looks like, are they prepared to stay for three years, winning the League 2, League 1, the Championship potentially? Or will they say, you've broke my contract? Correct. I think if the people talk about 80 points or 100 points, but that's just over one season, that gets you relegated and then you come back again. And I think players, a few of them would leave, but I think some of them could say, I could put up with that for a year. And it also builds a sort of, you know, a connection with the supporters, I'd be seeing in a great light.

47:08But I think because this has gone on for so long, I do think the punishment should be over a number of years, three to five years. And I think then I think players would move on. But then you've got the financial aspect of how can they afford the wages of those players if they haven't got Premier League money, if they're having to pay all this money out and you've got the money, you can only spend the money that you're bringing in. Just cook the books again. They'll have to abide by it now. Just cook the books again. Might as well do that. What's that? Cook the books again. Do it again. No, I don't think they'll do it again.

47:36I don't think they will. It's not even a guarantee they could get into League Two because if they get their Premier League membership torn up, they've got to reapply for EFL membership and you have to pass a fit and proper persons test. The EFL say in their own guidebook they judge these things on sporting merit. And if there's a spare space going, you know, EFL goes down to 71 teams instead of 72 because of this, then you're going to have the team who's in the National League, because they only send two up being like, well, hang on, we came third this year, we've got 90 points, the club's impeccably well run, we would like to apply for membership as well.

48:05You're going to have the team that finishes bottom of the league too saying, do you know what, we've only gone down by a point, we actually all our affairs are in order, we've got a sporting argument for being allowed to stay in the league. And if you put basically those three arguments together, it's almost impossible to say that Manchester City, if they had been thrown out of the Premier League, would have more of a sporting argument for EFL membership than any of the rest of them. So you mentioned the finances there. That's the difference between expulsion and the points deduction, because they can probably just absorb the losses from going into the championship and retaining a squad that can get them back up.

48:36If they go into League Two or even further down, you have to completely redesign the financial makeup of the club, because you're not going to have access to those revenue streams again for years and years. I know we joked about, we'll just cook the books again. Every penny they spend from this point on is going to be so overly scrutinised. They're going to have to do that in an organic way financially. And it's just, the time it could take them from there to get back to where they were is... They'd have to slash their wage, but as well, the other way... They'd have to slash their wage, but I don't know if there's a single first-team player at that side who could stay if they went that far down.

49:08Because you're talking three or four years before the revenue, even in a best-case scenario, would get to a level where you can just... And I think when you think of punishment and listen we're all bandying stuff about we don't really know too much about it i do feel whatever the punishment is it needs to feel like it's over a period of time i would say because of the misdemeanies of being over a period of time let's see this is the balance though because the premier league i think actually has a duty of care here to make sure that if they meet out a punishment that like we say discourages anyone from doing this either again and the owners go oh well okay we'll take our ball we'll go home we've got our fingers and a lot of other pies then it's actually you just leave the club and the fans having to sort of like carry the cross for that for years and years and years while the people who you're actually trying to punish in all this just sort of swan off and do something else.

49:54So trying to find the balance there between not wanting to punish the people who haven't done something and punishing the people who have is so difficult. Martin, can you give us any insight on that balance? Well, the Premier League, they will make a recommendation to the independent commission about what they think the sanction should be. so they've got an interesting thing do they say that they wanted to be like really really tough so it lasts for years or do they are they going to worry about killing the club so that's why i think they will go they will recommend a huge points deduction that's just my feeling i don't have any particular briefing on that that's what i think and then if they want to expel city from the league then that is a vote of the clubs and it has to be 75 percent of the membership So I'm not sure 75 % of the Premier League clubs would vote to expel them from the Premier League.

50:45And if they did that, there is no... The EFL does not have to accept them. Because they would have to lose somebody from the EFL. So if it's an expulsion, then City get left in this sort of limbo. Do they go to the National League or what? And does that kill the club? Isn't there a clause, though, that at that point the FA intervenes and the FA actually says you need to accept them into League 2. That was what I read when I started going through the rules. I mean, yes, the FA could then say to the EFL, we want you to do that, but then somebody else loses out and another club has to drop out of the EFL because they can't have more than 72 clubs.

51:25Is there a possibility that you could keep them in the Premier League but for like four or five years they have like a minus 30 point deduction so they can't go and get Champions League football, win a league, but they have to stay and sort of just be competing to stay up really but be mid-table-ish. I don't know if that's something that people would look at. Yeah, that's a possibility for sure because if they get relegated because of the other thing, you could have a transfer ban for five years, for example, but then if all your players leave, what do you do in terms of signing these players?

51:56So that's quite an imaginative one. Well, Beth, I want to come to you. It's your debut on the overlap, so welcome to the show. and listen, you've mentioned earlier on about your childhood and a lot of that being Manchester City. A lot of people see his childhood was driven by your team as well. So we all have that bear to stick with. So do you think what City have done and what Pep did, shall we say, and there was always that debate, wasn't he? Pep Guardiola, Sir Alex Ferguson. Is that debate over now? I mean, for me, it was over before the verdict came out. I mean, I'm a Manchester United fan, but I've always said for me, Sir Alex Ferguson is the best manager of all time.

52:40I think the guilty verdict nails it on the cross even further because, I mean, I can sit here now and say, without a doubt, Pep Guardiola is a fantastic manager, a fantastic footballing mind. Cheating or no cheating, breaches or no breaches, I think we can all agree that he is incredible in terms of his footballing mind and his tactics and everything along that road. So Pep Guardiola is a fantastic manager. However, I can't judge him against Sir Alex Ferguson because what he built at Manchester City, specifically when you look at Manchester City, is based off breaching rules. You could have the best Monopoly player in the world if you're giving him an extra£1 ,500 every time he passes his go.

53:17I can't judge that as a legitimate win if you go and win the game. So Sir Alex Ferguson, I mean, he came in from Aberdeen. Manchester United hadn't won a title in over 20 years. What he did time after time was incredible. And people talk about the fact he had a lot of money, a lot of power. He did, but there was other teams that came up. Chelsea, for example, came up. You look at the likes of Manchester City when the breaches began, and even still, with a wage bill that was nowhere near cities and the league that he won when he went out in 2013, he went and won a league with a team that, on paper, when you look at it now, people think is incredible.

53:50He did that time after time, and he didn't necessarily have all the money and power as what people thought. You look at the way Pep's left the club, and he's a fantastic manager, but Manchester City, they've left it in a very good place, whether they've done that legitimately or not. For a sense, Enzo Morescu can come in and he can keep winning games. Sir Alex Ferguson was holding that club up and as soon as he left, you saw it all unravel. So I think Sir Alex was absolutely incredible. I think Pep was incredible, but if you've done it based on breaching the rules and it makes it not a level playing field for everyone else, I can't take that seriously.

54:25I would compare Crystal Palace more than I'd compare us to Manchester City based on the fact that it's not been legitimate. I mean, Stuart, I bring you in here because it's an interesting one. I was asked, obviously, a lot of questions about Manchester City. And when I think of their individual players, say like De Bruyne, I think he's one of the greatest players I've ever seen, David Silva, Aguero, company. No matter what's happened here with City, that wouldn't take away in my mind how good a player that was. I still think Kevin De Bruyne's one of the best players I've ever seen. and I think I feel a little bit for the players and maybe a little bit for Pep.

55:01How do you feel from a manager's point of view when you're sort of judging a Pep Guardiola on how great he's been in his career so far? Does this taint it in any way? Not for me because I've not got the tribal law that supporters have in many ways, you know. I see it and I try to strip it back down, the product that that manager has put on a football pitch and I've covered City for quite a while. you know, doing the commentaries and whatever. And I think it was the Real Madrid at home, they played a semi-final. And I walked out of the stadium that day and I thought, I've seen a brand of football that in my whole lifetime of playing, watching, internationally and everything, I've never seen before.

55:41And that for me was what Pep Guardiola stands for. And I do get your point. Look, you know, there's a question mark in your mind. I get that and I really do. But I know how hard management is. and whatever group of players you've got, you've still got to coach them. And he was putting intricate detail into his coaching and whatever that a lot of us had never seen before. And like probably Wenger did a little bit when he come over, Alex did, there's a handful of A-liner managers and for me, Pep, won't be tainted by this in my eyes, not from a footballing purist point of view. Yeah, I agree, to be honest.

56:22But I just want to ask the supporters, and I'll go back to you, Beth. We're all football supporters. How do you think you'd feel right now if it was your club? How do you think you would be reacting? I would be absolutely gutted. If someone told me, Wayne Rooney, Cristiano Ronaldo, some of the best players that have played for my club, were signed illegitimately, I'd be gutted. And I think there's a difference between backing your club and supporting your club. I love Manchester United so much, like, ridiculously. but when the Super League stuff came out and I mean Manchester United's ownership is a whole different story the way that they've gone about owning Manchester United compared to the way that your owners have gone about it I mean it's wrong in different ways But I can hold them accountable while still loving my club.

57:07And I think that's where it's at. I do feel sorry for the City fans that can sit here and say, look, I am gutted about this. We have no idea about this, obviously. It's not their fault. Even the players, it's not their fault. And it's gutting to think that when you thought that these were amazing footballing memories, it's potentially been done through breaching the rules. If you can sit here and say, our club needs to be held accountable for that, then of course I feel sorry for the supporters. but there also is some City fans and I think it is because this is a huge period of dominance for them and they don't want to let it go that are sort of like, oh, it's them against us, it's us against the world and are sort of blindly backing an ownership when there has been such a dance team.

57:47Is that understandable? Can you understand that as a supporter? I think every fan base would be doing the same. I don't think supporters are different. I think in the main, most of us are pretty similar. I can understand it but at the same time, if that verdict came out against Manchester United and I read that statement and I read what was in that statement, I would take my red tinted glasses off and I would think to myself, look, I love my club, but this is wrong. Like, I want to win. I want to win every single game, but I want to win fairly. So I get it, wanting to hold on to it, but at the same time, you do have to look in the mirror and think, we've got to be accountable.

58:24Sorry, can I just ask, and Gareth, I'll bring you in there as well. Do you think it's really difficult for Man City supporters? I do feel for them because the people who've completely transformed their football club in terms of what they're seeing on the pitch with in trophies, these are like these big, powerful rulers from a nation-state. And they're saying, we're adamant, I'm telling you, they've got this wrong. Pep Guardiola comes out as well. It's like, and, you know, these important people, these people these supporters probably look up to and absolutely adore because what they've given their football club, they are so on the front foot about it.

58:59I almost feel in some ways it's very difficult for City supporters not to hang on to that for as long as they possibly can. I think there's almost a thing in football, which I've written about before, and I call it club tie syndrome, which is like some supporters are willing to listen to anyone from their club tell them something. If they've got a club tie on, they must be right. And sadly, that's not the case. At Liverpool, we had Hicks and Gillette, and that was a really challenging period. and I can remember protesting and handing out leaflets and people stopping me saying, you've got this wrong, lad, you need to support the team.

59:34You're reading the internet too much and I'm like, you're not reading it enough. Do you know what I mean? And I think I do have empathy and sympathy for the likes of yourself because I do think about, you know, like a City fan I know was saying, I've had a couple of cries about this and I thought that's how I'd feel because it should be the golden period of your football club and I'd be questioning everything. I'd be like, well, why were they allowed to do the gate? You know, why did the Premier League allow this? Why did the government allow this? And you can see how much everyone is on the hook here and how politics has got involved.

1:00:08You've got the Prime Minister commenting on it and, you know, you've got potentially, you know, jobs being at stake in terms of, you know, I don't know, making arms and drilling for oil or whatever. You know, the UAE could pull out of all of these things and say we're not dealing with the UK anymore. how did we ever arrive at a situation where a nation state was allowed to own one of our football clubs? Do you not think that it raises a question about ownership in football generally? I think we haven't quite got it right in this country when it comes to ownership. When you talk to any fan of a big six club, of course, they've always got a gripe with their ownership group and I feel like, as a Chelsea fan, the only kind of fan base at university loved, their own owner was a Chelsea fan and that's come with his own problems.

1:00:48And I feel like if you were to ask generally or genuinely what ownership group are worse the Glazers or the group that own Man City Glazers again it wasn't legal at the time but taking money out of a football club year on year not investing their own money or these owners that come and put money into a football club and invested and brought them success and there's obviously merits to both sides of the argument I'm not saying one's better than the other but I'm thinking in terms of ownership in football especially Premier League ownership we just haven't got it right when you say that you know when you think about it you think of the two Manchester clubs and you think of the Glazers are taking money out, but they're still allowed to run Manchester United where the Man City owners are pumping money in, aren't they?

1:01:31And they've got to go. Yeah, and that's why I think this is a challenging, nuanced conversation to have. And I don't think it is fair to say that it is just black and white one way or another. There are arguments either side. Like I'm sympathetic for yourself, Gareth, or Beth, for example, with this idea that it's been tainted and that sort of thing. In fact, some City fans think that as well. I know that some have said that they're considering cancelling their season ticket, for example. Those fans do exist. I'm not one of them personally. I will still be going to the matches. But at the same time, I do think there has to be an acknowledgement that at the same time, it's not fair to say you're wrong for feeling this way.

1:02:12So me personally, I do look back at those past teams and whether Guardiola, Mancini, whatever, and I am more in alignment with what Stuart was saying earlier about I don't see the it's not I don't see the problem obviously but my first thought is I'm looking at the tactics I'm looking at how wonderful and beautiful the players are and the style of play that's the first thing that springs to my mind so of course how that squad was uh composed and created that's obviously the conversation to be had and as things stand it was illegitimate in respect of construction and said he'd been found guilty in that regard.

1:02:48But I don't think that we should go too far the other way, in my opinion anyway, and say therefore this achievement means nothing. It's meaningless because it's so incredibly challenging to win the Premier League, to win the treble. The players still have to go out and win on the pitch. And I get it, that might not be a popular take and other fans won't agree. But I don't need everyone to agree with me on that either. I just need there to be an understanding that it's, in my opinion, wrong to say that you are wrong for feeling that way because football is such... It's almost like a stages of grief type situation.

1:03:22Do you know what I mean? That's what I... When I've been trying to rationalise it in my head and reading some of the stuff and reading online and stuff from some City fans, not all, I'm like, you know, you're not there. You haven't smelt the coffee that everyone else can smell. Yeah, for some, absolutely. I think Jamie was saying it earlier that there are some fans who are just absolutely clinging on and blindly accepting what was said. And again, I totally understand that perspective because why wouldn't you want to believe and support the leadership structure in that way? I'm personally not there.

1:03:52The proof will be in the pudding and I'll wait for the entire appeal process to be there. I think that I accept the wrongdoings have been done if this appeal fails, of course, but I don't think I'm going to change my perspective on what was achieved on the pitch. I don't think that's... I might be wrong. I don't think it's a denial thing for me. I think that my memories are just so strong. I think you're always going to get a dividing line when you ask any football fan this question of how would you feel if you were Manchester City right now? Because there's a section of fans in this country for whom success and these moments that we talk about have come naturally or they've come fairly over the years.

1:04:26They know what it's like to experience them. And there's a much bigger selection of fans who these moments almost never come. They wait decades, they wait lifetimes or stuff like that. You're talking about experience Newcastle. I am, yes. Well, go on then. You've got owners who've got more money than the city owners. I mean, how do you feel about that? Because you're on the same boat in terms of when we've just been talking about ownership and nation states coming in. How do you feel about it all as a Newcastle fan? I've had a few people asking, you must be so angry that you've behaved and you've followed the rules and City have been getting away for this long.

1:04:58But you don't get a gold star, a pat on the back for following the rules of the league that your club has signed up for. Like, I don't think it's of any sort of benefit to Newcastle necessarily what's happening to Man City. But the owners will obviously be delighted because they've come in and they've made a very public play of how they're going to abide by the rules and how they're not trying to artificially inflate anything or buy their way to success. They're growing the club organically and all this. And it sort of leans into this idea of why do these nation states buy football clubs? Like so much of it is PR.

1:05:28So much of it is image management. And when Newcastle's new owners came in, they wanted a seat at the Premier League. They wanted a seat at UEFA. They wanted influence in this country politically and financially for diversification of assets. Not because they woke up one day and went, hey do you know who are sleeping giants in the Premier League that deserve a bit of infrastructure it's Newcastle United and it was the same with with Manchester City like this is a reason why these institutions should never be allowed to own football clubs or sporting institutions full stop because they don't do it for sporting reasons they do it for this huge like geopolitical game they're playing and it leads us to a situation now where yeah okay my club has followed the rules great pat on the back maybe this opens the door to more future Champions League qualifications that there's a seat going at the top of the league and they're going to have their well placed to go and get that.

1:06:16But it's only going well because it's going well. When you end up in these situations, you see the pressure now being exerted outside of football on the implications of this decision. And it doesn't really make you feel particularly good. I don't know how much coverage this has gotten in a wider media landscape, but there's been, I wouldn't say a division, but certainly a difference in opinion amongst Newcastle fans over what approach the owners should have had. because obviously they came in, we all remember the memes, Newcastle fans thought they were buying Mbappe and they bought Dan Byrne, ha ha.

1:06:47But that was just the reality of where they were. They had to sign players that they could afford and they had to spend money that they had because the way the league works is you cannot spend above what you're bringing in. And we're now in a sort of position where it's like, you had a lot of fans saying, well, why don't we just cheat? Why don't we find a way to artificially inflate all this? Because up until literally a week and a half ago when that tweet dropped, there had never been a serious consequence to any team breaking the rules. Can I just ask you something? Would you swap what Man City are going through now?

1:07:20Would you almost go, well, you know what? Let's have a focus on me where City are. Let's go to League Two. If someone said that to you now, how would you feel about that? This is the point I was going to make there when you asked fans from different clubs, how do you feel about this? Because we talk about it being the moment. And I would imagine Manchester City fans right now are somewhere between so angry at the owners who have no history with this club. It doesn't mean anything to them when they came in. And they have dragged its name through the mud. The implications of what could happen to their club is enormous.

1:07:48And they're not ultimately going to be the ones that really feel any pain for that. But also, I imagine a lot of them are probably thinking, yeah, but what a ride though. Like if you'd offered me this at the start, nights we would never have dreamed of, success we could never otherwise had, and there'll be a really big price to pay at the end of it. I think you will not find a consensus in the Man City fan base between those who will tell you it was worth it and those who will tell you it absolutely wasn't. And I can't answer that question, really, because the possibility of seeing Newcastle demoted divisions and divisions and divisions, I've seen us go down.

1:08:19I've been to championship away games. I remember growing up in the threat of the third division was there. And if you'd offered me then, like, oh, you can go on this, you can win it all, you can dominate English football, but we'll put you right back where you were and worse at the end of it. There's obviously the moral, you want to have the moral stance, which is, no, that's cheating, that's wrong, but line up 100 Manchester City fans and ask them, was it worth it? I think you'll get probably a 50-50 split of those who say it is. Stuart? It's interesting. The Manchester City situation at the moment has thrown up this whole utopian fairness.

1:08:53Everyone wants a fairness. It doesn't exist. I'll tell you what, when I was at Nottingham Forest and Manchester United say, there you go, 3.6 million for Roy Keane and take your best player. And Collymore, you know, gets seduced by Liverpool. Is there a fairness to that to a Nottingham Forest player? You know, so there is a clamour for this utopian fairness. Now Manchester City have, you know, broken the rules as such. But there's always been, you know, the haves and the have-nots almost. You know, for all those fans here that support Brighton and support various other teams, maybe Leeds and whatever of the time, we were always blown out of the water in my playing days by Liverpool.

1:09:32Yeah, it was never a level playing field. It was never, unless you're one of the top two or three teams. I think if City had used their influence to make that argument, though, there'd be a lot of sympathy for it. And if City hadn't voted for PSR, which they did, again, you'd be like, OK. And, you know, if they'd used their power and influence, which they clearly have, to say, these rules aren't right, as a Liverpool fan, even though I'd probably benefit from them, I'd be like, no, it's right, because I don't like the idea that, you know, Villa do all right, and then they've got to start getting rid of all the players.

1:10:00That doesn't seem fair to me either. but they didn't do that. They signed up for the Super League, they voted for PSR and then in the background they're TPEX and documents and writing new rules. So yeah. But this is one of the reasons I feel as though Pep and the players cannot be tainted and I don't look at them as being tainted because I've seen an imbalance all over my career as a player, as a coach, as a manager. When I was at Man City I got no money to buy any players whatsoever. no one ever felt sorry for me as a manager. But there's a difference between an imbalance and then£900 million.

1:10:37No, I get that. You know what I mean? Yeah, I get that. The interesting thing is the actual total spending since Man City, the zoners came in, it's like the difference between Man City, Man United and Chelsea is very little over that entire 18-year period in terms of spending. And I don't want to make it look like you're sort of defending investing the money in the club, but I just think we've got to be a little bit careful when we're like, this ruins all of this, this ruins all of that. because if it was just spending money, other clubs would have had a bad problem. I agree with you a little bit on that because, and then what you say is not wrong, they've inflated by 900 million, so I totally get that.

1:11:11But in terms of the actual competition, it wasn't like City were going to just like, when I bought Messi or Mbappe, and it was just like a completely, you know, Man United and probably Chelsea over that period, but it was pretty close, wasn't it, in terms of what you were spending when maybe when Jose was there or the managers there, Chelsea, of late, probably a lot of their money's come up or spent a lot of money. But you understand what I mean? It was never like City was like, obviously massively inflated what they had. When we say level playing fields, the crazy thing about that is like, I think the implication is that all of a sudden City were operating on a level that nobody else was.

1:11:45They actually, what they did with that money was sort of level the playing field just in a way that is completely against the rules and other clubs were in. The unfairness comes from the fact that other teams couldn't do that. Not that they just sort of were spending way beyond everyone else. And again, I think we all agree that City should be hit the biggest kind of penalties possible. But also on the pitch, it wasn't like City were running away with titles. I know they won the majority of titles in that period, but the vast majority of their titles went down to the final day of the season. Whether it was against Liverpool, whether it was against whoever, went to the final day of the season.

1:12:15So it just shows you the gap that existed between clubs that do not have and the clubs that do have in terms of Manchester United, Liverpool and Arsenal, in terms of how big and how much of a gap they had to bridge. to a band of titles. Martin, can I just bring you in just before we go to a quick one on Chelsea? This nation-state ownership has never been popular. It does feel like politics is behind some of it as well. I think there's always spoken about that Boris Johnson is involved in. Saudi's going to Newcastle as well. Where do you think the Premier League are in all this? We've got the independent regulator.

1:12:53Is it possible that these rules can be in place where this can't happen again, where a nation state buys a football club? Yeah, I mean, I think most fans, I think, would say that you shouldn't have a nation state buying a club. If you ask Manchester City, they will still insist that they are not state-owned. Even though Sheikh Mansour is the vice president of the UAE and everything shows it is basically state-connected. And Saudi Arabia would say that they don't own Newcastle, it's the public investment fund, but clearly they do. So when you come to a legal challenge, and a club says, you know, the president of Bhutan wants to buy Liverpool, but he's not doing it from the government, he's doing it as an individual, how do you disprove that legally?

1:13:47I think that has been one of the issues that Premier League has wrestled with. They don't really like having the state-owned clubs, for sure, but it's how can they enforce the rules to show that actually it is a state rather than an individual who is claiming to be acting as an individual and not the state.

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1:17:06Shop Total Human now at onnit.com. Quick, we're going to bring you in on Chelsea. I think a lot of us in this room as well feel like Chelsea have got off a little bit. Maybe the fact that they held their hands up, it feels like they've got the sanctions that you got, really. And probably, as I said, most people feel you got off a little bit lightly. how do you feel about Chelsea how they've gone about things in this period under Manchester City you've had different ownership models yeah definitely did get off lightly £10 million fine and the two year transfer ban that's been suspended for two years it's a lot easier to hold hands up when there's a transfer of ownership they did it not us and so yeah I think as a Chelsea fan you do view the situation and you have a level of sympathy towards Man City because it was the Wild West in 2015 when Abramovich came in and brought his billions in and you could say brought Chelsea the league.

1:18:04But I experienced those moments. I was in Munich. I was there for the title wins. I've seen it all and we've won it all. But when this situation rears this ugly head, it does make you think about your football club. And Stuart talked about a utopia of fairness. And I don't know if that exists in football because we all have this perception of state-owned football clubs and we don't like it for fair reason. but also we don't like the Americanisation of football and the vast majority of Premier League clubs are owned by American owners. So where do you go? In the ideal world, it's a local owner that has the same accent from the club or the city that you're from, but that doesn't exist.

1:18:37Those people don't have the funds to buy football clubs. Jack Walker is a once-in-a-lifetime type of owner. Sir Jim Ratcliffe. But look at the perception of him right now. So it's very difficult to strike the balance but as a Chelsea fan, it does make you reflect on what you've won and you think to yourself, we are very lucky that the rules are very different when the Brambridge came in. But also there needs to be kind of a view of the long-term viability of the Premier League. Of course, it's the best league in the world and has been for the last 20-odd years. But I grew up on the steady diet of Football Italia and Serie A was the best league in the world.

1:19:10And I think the clear demarcation point was 2003 when the Brambridge did come in and foreign investment did come to the Premier League. And because of deregulation at the time, it allowed the Premier League to go from the oligopoly of Manchester United and Arsenal-dominators in the league to Chelsea starting to compete in the Big Four and the area that you played in, where the league was the best league in the world. And so I remember what you said about when you watched the World Cup and there wasn't too many teams in the Premier League that had world-class attackers. Just from a practical standpoint, say Harlem was to leave Man City in the summer, what bona fide world-class attacker plays in the Premier League right now?

1:19:42So just from a landing point of view in terms of the league being the best league in the world, yes, propped up by the three Bs and how competitive the floor is, but in terms of sealing the Premier League, I do feel like we may look back on this in 10, 15 years' time and say this was the crossroads and this is where this league went from being the best league in the world to maybe not being the best league in the world. We're all debating about what we think the punishment should be for Manchester City, but if Chelsea were in that position, and you've said yourself you think they got off lightly, what would be your biggest fear as a Chelsea fan?

1:20:13What could be taken away from what you've seen over the last 15, 20 years? The fines are fine, it's not my money. Ultimately, I know it sounds crude, but it's not. but to say for example for Man City 2012 didn't exist take the Champions League away take 0405 0506 away for me as a Chelsea fan when you have those trivial conversations about who's better Lampard or Gerrard now you can't really have Kevin De Bruyne in those conversations I know it sounds trivial but that's the lifeblood of football those are conversations you have we mates at the pub and so to say that what we achieved doesn't exist in the record books I think would kill me the most Really interesting you said that there about that De Bruyne stuff because I think we're all going to see this differently.

1:20:53And I, listen, Man City, I've always felt they were guilty. They have cooked the books. They have cheated. It should take titles away. But when I, just the way I think about it, I can't change my view on individual players. I can't. I really struggle with that. I think when you're having those conversations of, for example, who's the best right back in Premier League history? Is it Kyle Walker or is it Gary Neville? I think that's not a conversation anymore because the asterisks always exist. I feel like that's why I said if I was a Kevin De Bruyne or a David Silva or a company I'd be so angry at my club because people would be having these conversations I don't necessarily agree with that looking at an individual player I'm still thinking of Kevin De Bruyne putting those balls in with his right foot and thinking that's got nothing to do with ownership you might say the fella finishing it so he has more assists but I'm just picturing him as a footballer or I'm picturing David Silva with three men around and I'm getting out of it and just thinking I would never that would never take my memory of those players I say it proves that Pep wasn't involved your perception of Pep versus Alex Ferguson is still tainted do you know what I mean the managers are still kind of it changes your perception of it and again we've seen the football on the pitch and it's an emotional game we feel the moment but when there is an asterisk or when there is I don't know I just feel like for example Buffon is arguably the best keeper of my lifetime but I think there is still a hanging thing that he played for the Juventus team that was cheating for me anyway oh no do you not?

1:22:17no I don't think it'd be fun and think of like... Fair enough. It's still the performances on the pitch, right? Yeah, just because they've been bought by illigent means doesn't mean that they're not a good player or they still turn up every week. I just feel like, yeah, it's a team, looking at it from that perspective just doesn't make sense to me. I think still individually as a player, you still got to perform on the pitch. But I think I probably grew up going to school with Arsenal fans and telling me that despite a team winning all those trophies in that period, lottery FC doesn't really mean anything.

1:22:44And it's the same when people are putting together their all-time Premier League 11s. they very rarely put City players in there because it's always been viewed as artificial. And I think that we have to live in the reality of that situation where the prestige clubs, quote-unquote, in this country, Man Utd, Arsenal and Liverpool, are perceived to do things the right way. And so the perception of the players will always be different to that of a Chelsea player or a Man City. I think at heart we are romantic, aren't we, about our game? And that's why you love the FA Cup. That's why you love a big team getting knocked out by a little one.

1:23:14And, you know, I don't support City, obviously. But I always had like a respect for them and I always didn't mind City fans. This is before the financial doping. And, you know... Before they were the challenge. But, you know, like the Paul Dickhoff moment and that. That was brilliant, wasn't it? Do you know what I mean? That was like a thing where you watch there as a footy fan and was like, wow, you know, imagine being there for that. And you loved all the stuff about, you know, City fans getting halfway out the stadium and all running back in again and all of that kind of stuff. And that moment feels pure.

1:23:44Where you're looking at a Dioguero moment, which we all did the same thing about. I can remember where I was for that. I can remember who I was watching it with, what pub I was in. And it was all going, do you know what I mean? When that happened. And now it's like, how would you feel sure if you were a sort of a Man City player? Now you think of your career or it involved Nottingham Forest. You won a lot of trophies at Nottingham Forest. How would you feel? I would hate, I think you made a couple of really good points there. Firstly, you said, are we going to look back in 10 or 15 years time and this be a real critical moment that maybe diminishes the Premier League slightly, that will be a worry for the Premier League because they're cutting their nose off to spite their face a little bit with City, but they know they have to.

1:24:29That is a problem. And I can't get it in my head that anything that's gone on on a football pitch is diminished by the finances because I love football so much. I'm going to Arsenal Saturday and I'm excited to go and watch a game of football, Arsenal versus Leeds. And I would hate to even all those memories of childhood watching football back in the day to have that tainted by this and say, well, maybe De Bruyne wasn't as good. Maybe Kyle Walker weren't brilliant against Mbappé that day because of this. I can't let that go in my head because I love the product too much. And I think it's sad, certainly for younger generations, to even think that.

1:25:11Honestly, I can understand why you do. it's not a criticism but I almost would feel sorry for you it's a lovely game and just keep the purity in yourself the way I and again I don't think there's no right or wrong this is just so nuanced and we all see it slightly differently I almost see the squad and the team different to individual players now the reason when you're talking about the extra 900 million in my mind and if I'm thinking of Man City Liverpool I'm thinking that means they've got more players than us they can make changes from the bench whereas Klopp's maybe got 15 top players they maybe got 20 do you understand what I mean?

1:25:47but when I think of an individual player playing I think of it differently you know Kyle Walker, Van Bappie that's nothing to do with finances that's just Kyle Walker against him that's De Bruyne putting that ball in that's a great old finishing now I know someone might say but they wouldn't have been able to afford that player to make the team so I get that in terms of the team environment and the squad and that's how I see it how it's affected my team Liverpool that they always had the extra two or three quality players that they maybe wouldn't have been able to afford. So from a team and a squad point of view, but definitely not from an individual point of view.

1:26:19But, Maz, I want to bring you in. We're talking a lot about ownership, how clubs are run. Has anyone run better than Brighton right now? I don't think there is, yeah. I think listening to everyone here, I don't know what the fuss is all about. It's great. No, I think we're so lucky as a Brighton fan or as a Brighton fan base to have someone who is passionate for the club. He's a boyhood fan of the club. and I think that's a massive difference. You see that in comparison to the state-owned clubs, respectfully. They don't have that connection. So with Tony Bloom, it's brilliant to see that he does care for the club.

1:26:49He loves the club. However, what I'm most frustrated about in this situation is season on season, we have to sell our best players to comply with the rules, whereas Man City didn't have to do that throughout the whole period of however long. And so I think that's the biggest frustration as a Brighton fan. As soon as we do well, as soon as we get to a point where we're playing well, we've got a good squad, we have to sell because we have to comply with the rules. So I think that's the biggest frustration for me as a Brighton fan is as soon as we start to, you know, get up there with the establishment and start to cause a bit of a ruckus, then you have to comply with the rules and you have to sell your best players to fit in with that.

1:27:20Well, we go back to your last game, you beat the champions, don't just beat them, you batter them at home. Fincingly, yeah. And probably the narrative straight away is with Brighton, who's the next one they're going to sell? You know, rather than thinking, actually, can they make Champions League football this season? And that's the frustrating thing. As a fan, you don't want to live like that. You want to be able to win trophies. And I suppose that comes back to that argument. It's like, right, cool, we are successful, we are sustainable, we make profit every year, but we haven't won a trophy.

1:27:45Our best achievement is the Sussex Senior Cup. Do you know what I mean? We haven't achieved anything really in terms of being able to celebrate trophies. And I suppose that's, again, it's frustrating because we'll never get to that point because we always have to sell our best players. So like you said, assuming someone has a good performance... I'll ask you why you can't get to that point. One of your big rivals is Crystal Palace. They haven't in the last few years. Well, they shouldn't have won the first trophy in the first place. Henderson should have got sent off. And then they wouldn't have won the other two trophies.

1:28:11But no, I suppose Palace, yeah, it's a fair argument. You know, I'm not one of those persons that sort of ignores what Palace have done. Unfortunately, they have achieved three trophies in a short amount of time. But I suppose they've got a similar model. But I just, for us, it's just, you know, our best players just, as soon as we get to that point where we are starting to get to a really good level, we start to look good, we start to, you know, our best finish is sixth, and we can't get past that level. That's because we keep getting stripped. All our best players keep getting taken away. But that's because we are playing within the rules.

1:28:40And our revenue isn't as high as other clubs. I think we've had a 700 % increase since we first came into the league. But still, we're still not on the same level as your Man City's, your Chelsea's, your Man United's in that sense. I think you guys are the biggest losers in all of this. That level of club. For example, Manchester United, we can moan about it. And Liverpool, very justifiably, on that period, you can be frustrated by it. But like you said, Man City put themselves at a playing field where they compete with the big, big clubs in the Premier League. It's not Man City's fault that Manchester United have wasted millions on transfers that haven't worked.

1:29:13It's not Manchester City's fault that Manchester United have continuously sat managers and got the wrong ones in. Whereas with you guys where you're well run, you're doing things the right way. And for example, like Newcastle, Aston Villa, like you want to go and compete, but you can't do it. And there's a club there that has fast tracked that and also sort of locked the door and said, oh, you guys can't do that either. I think if I was a fan of a club like that I would be more frustrated than I am as a United fan where I look ourselves in the mirror and think we should have done so much better with the money that we have I think as well our recruitment is so good because we identify players at such a low price and then are able to sell them at such a bigger price and I think unfortunately these clubs don't have that luxury when they sign a player they have to perform straight away whereas we can take more of a risk so we can sign a player for 20 million and we can give him a couple of years give him a pathway into the first team whereas your Man United's, your Man City's don't have that luxury.

1:30:03They have to perform straight away. So I think we're quite lucky in that respect that we have a bit more leeway in that sense. Would you say that also the flip side of that is your club has been one of the best benefactors from the big money pool of people because the money you're getting for Casado, Cucurella, all ridiculously at the time, ludicrous amounts of money. But I would argue as a fan, I'd rather just keep hold of those players and win a trophy or get further in our... But that's never going to happen, though. And again, you don't want to chuck it up to the Astros football, but think about Leicester.

1:30:35Why should that never happen, though? Because Leicester reached a Xenna for football. Leicester won the league, and the following season, their best players left. And they won the Premier League. And so... But we never get to that point, though. Again, this is not me defending how football is. Stuart talked about it back in the early days in terms of clubs, huge clubs, right? Forrest, the club that won the European Cup a couple of times, still had to sell their best players. And unfortunately, the way the football's set up now is the food chain. and Leicester's the perfect example, winning the league in 2016, and Kante and Mahrez leave the following season.

1:31:02Unfortunately, that's just how football goes. Yeah. Can I ask you about the manager? Yeah. Because he's obviously adored Dezebi, and I've always felt with Hertz that it's almost never quite been on the same level. Is he getting there now? 100%, yeah. I feel like the connection's getting way better now with him. He struggled to connect with the fan base, I think, just because, you know, little things like going up to the fans after an away game and not sort of applauding or just walking straight down the tunnel. Little things like that, press conferences and some of the stuff he'd come out with.

1:31:31But I feel like now he attends, again, it's very sort of small details, but he'll attend all the fan, you know, fan sort of town halls and all those little things now. He's doing little things. And obviously the performances on the pitch is massive now. And I think that's helping massively with his case of, you know, if you're winning games, you're not going to get the pressure of fans on your back. And, you know, there was a point actually last season we wanted him out. You know, a lot of fans were calling for his head because he just wasn't getting things right. And yeah, he's massively turned it around and he's become a bit of a fan favourite now.

1:32:01I'll tell you what, I was fortunate enough, I was commentating on one of the games in America at the World Cup and Fabian Herzl had come on to join us for the whole duration on the commentary. And I said to him, why have you given up your summer sort of thing to come on and be part of TalkSport? And he gave a brilliant answer. he said, well, you know, myself and the club think it's going to be beneficial for me to come on TalkSport and the power of answering questions when you're under pressure and it's got to be a media will help with my management skills. And I thought, how good's that? We coach the players, we support the players on the pitch.

1:32:41You're bringing players in, your recruitment's brilliant. But when the manager has a slightly rocky time, what do you do? Brighton support their manager. They don't put him under pressure and start criticising him and whatever. They support the manager and think, what tools and building blocks can we give him to make him a better manager? And I thought, how good's that? He came with a big rep, obviously, from St. Paulie, and a lot of teams thought he was going to be a great manager. And I think he's slowly now proving that. He's still super young. He's 33 years of age. And it's just incredible to see such a young manager still learning, still got a lot of things to iron out.

1:33:13But yeah, the fact that he's so young and he's done such an incredible job so far, I think he's a top manager. Alfie, we're going to come to you. I've still not listened to the podcast as of I've actually left I've left that company now so you don't have to watch it now I've left I've moved on oh you've moved on I've been now it's just my name so it's quite easy for you so basically as soon as you got into the Premier League you left them behind that wasn't the reason he had a big money offer there you go I hope it was legal how does it feel there's a whole supporter you're in here you listen to all the other supporters talking about state ownership money involved and then little Holt back in the Premier League and made a brilliant start yeah we've done brilliantly I think when I was here last time everyone sort of it's like aww you know it's nice you'll get your season a few days out and you know we only lost one of our first five really we should we should have won at Chelsea and we probably should have drawn at Newcastle so we could be on 12 points and second or third so we drew two all at Stamford Bridge and we're walking out again we can't be dropping points like this we cannot be but no it's been really I think you know you remind yourself it's five games we're still the second favourites to go down but the thing is there's not been a game all season where we've been getting like battered where you think oh god we're so under the cosh here so we've shown we can compete at a minimum we were looking on Monday Night Football about you know sort of stats around how many points you get in the first sort of five or six games and how many points you're on now Eight.

1:34:50Eight after five. Yeah. One-two, drawn-two. Yeah. So basically, looking at other teams in Premier League history, they've got so many points like you after five games, and the chances of staying in the league. Are you already looking at that now and thinking a little bit differently than you were? I'm sure it's hugely differently than you were at the start of the season. Yeah. Yeah. Well, some of them think we get eight points. So, yeah, you're looking at it differently. I think, yeah, like I say, I don't think anyone's actually gone down with the points tallies that we had after three, four or five games.

1:35:23I don't think you say, oh, all right, then we're sorted now. Don't worry about the rest of the season. But I think it's so important because that's when you've got that confidence. Like I say, I think the players have to believe now that we can play. It's not actually like we've had an easy start. Man United at home, Villa at home, two Champions League teams, Newcastle away, Chelsea away who are flying. I mean, we haven't conceded. We go to Chelsea, they score after seven minutes. I think every neutral's looking at that going, all right, this is the point where they go under now because Chelsea are scoring goals for fun.

1:35:54Half an hour late with 2-1 up. So they've shown that sort of resilience that I think, like I say, when I was on here last time, I was saying we conceded the third most goals in the championship last season. Keep a clean sheet in our first three games of the Premier League. So that's sort of mapping on one-to-one that people maybe thought. But how do you feel with coming into the Premier League? We mentioned everybody talking about state ownership. So you've mentioned how well you've done to start in the Premier League. But when you're looking at the breaches, what do you think the punishment should be for these huge football clubs in terms of protecting maybe football clubs like yourselves who are a huge part of the pyramid?

1:36:35Yeah, I don't really view it through the lens of ours specifically. I think if you flagrantly break the rules, you need to be punished in such a way that the punishment has to be worse than anything that was gained. Which is why I don't think Man City, the period that we're looking at is 2010 to 2018. But personally, I don't see how they should be allowed to keep anything post-2018 either because the foundations were all built illegitimately. But anyway, that's a side point. And also, I don't really, like you're saying about Brighton, I don't really buy this argument that PSR, or now squad cost ratio, is what's stopping teams.

1:37:13Because at the end of the day, we don't have the richest owners. Say Newcastle do. So you're just, what we want is it to be competitive. But you're just changing the mechanism, really, of it being based on ownership wealth to it being based on revenue. So I don't really see how... He can't compete with wages, transfers. But Tony Bloom can't compete with the state of Saudi Arabia. Yeah, of course. So if there's no rules, I think Brighton would be in a worse place. That's fair, yeah. Newcastle, if they wanted to, could stockpile. You could be in for Caicedo, he's 18, he costs, what, 3 million, say something like that.

1:37:52Newcastle could say, we just stockpile. Assuming they're willing to invest that, we don't know because they can't at the moment. But I think a lot of teams would be in a worse place. and it's alright advocating for that when you happen to have the richest owner. As soon as they lose interest, as soon as someone else... China buys a club, okay, well then the league's blown out, who cares? No one can compete with that now. So I just think that would be a less competitive system than what we already have. That's not to say the current system's perfect. So does that reinforce the idea that you want to reward smart recruitment, don't you?

1:38:29Is that what you're talking about? Yeah, I don't know about rewarding. just because we're good at it doesn't mean you should be rewarded I suppose and also just to be perfectly frank we've spent quite a bit of money we spent£150 million this season £200 million last season it's not like we're this sort of rags to riches club I suppose in that sense but yeah not necessarily rewarding I just think you know if you are making inroads with signings and you are developing these players I get it you're getting a big astronomical fee for it but at the same time you're losing your best players year on out and you just it stagnates the growth of being able to develop and get better and compete with these bigger clubs.

1:39:03So I don't know what the answer, I don't know what the conclusion of it is, but it is just highly frustrating as a fan to see your club get dismantled, transfer window upon transfer window. I think that's my biggest frustration. And yeah, I get it's the food chain and it is the way football is, unfortunately. Chris, what do you bring you in? Leeds fan, you had your own financial issues in 2003. So are you glad that there are rules in place now that can maybe look after support clubs not to get into those financial positions again. Obviously, it's like a wildly different part of the spectrum to the state-owned clubs that can pump in unlimited money from endless cash flow, whereas with Leeds in 2003 when we went under, it was we had no money to pay the creditors because we took out loans based on Champions League revenue.

1:39:51So it was we didn't have any revenue or any cash flow to be able to finance the ambition. And obviously then you see Portsmouth. Wasn't that why you got there in the first place? I was playing at that time. Yes. And Leeds were just buying players all the time. You're thinking, where's that money coming from? We threw so much money at it around the turn of the millennium to catch up with the teams at the top. But as soon as you do that, we didn't have the revenue to keep up. And we took out loans predicated on the fact that we were going to get into the Champions League. And then we missed out by, I think it was a point.

1:40:21And we would have got that point if a Wes Brown on goal had counted at Ellen Road. But I'm not bitter, don't worry. But it's like Portsmouth as well. They went under after winning the FA Cup. And obviously the rules are in place. The Premier League will argue rules are in place to stop that happening again. But Leicester have gone under. They've double dropped into the League One. And I feel like inherently rules that are based on revenue and spending within your means are just, it only serves to benefit teams at the top because the revenue is just exponentially just going only up. whereas teams at the bottom end say Hull or Leeds or anyone else that's just coming into the Premier League there's so much to catch up and there's no way of doing it fairly How does that feel as a supporter where you feel like the chances I know everyone goes back to Leicester but realistically what are the chances of you seeing Leeds United win the Premier League title in your lifetime do you think it's virtually impossible?

1:41:20I think in the current system even though I know it's FFP, PSR and now score-cost ratio, obviously it changes names, but it's under the same guise essentially of how much revenue and how much money your club makes is how much you can spend. So if you're outside of that sort of bubble of the truly elite and the established elite that are just, as I say, continuously growing, you've got no way of getting to that. And Leicester, people look to Leicester as like the example of, oh, well, they could do it, so anyone can do it. But that was just a complete flash in the pan. And as you said, they got asset stripped immediately.

1:41:53So they couldn't sustain it, even though they got into the Champions League and went into the knockouts. There's no way of sustaining it. Aston Villa get into the Champions League again, lose all of their best players. It just seems like a bit deflating. It's funny this, and I'll bring you in, Stu, because I used to watch your Nottingham Forest team and used to win lots of the League Cup. And it's always been sort of the top four when I was watching football growing up. And people talk about this now. we can never dream about this happening. But when was the point when this actually changed? I don't think it was the Premier League, to be honest.

1:42:28I think you almost go back to probably Forrest, Aston Villa, really, you know, European, and then maybe it's just my upbringing in football. I felt like it was Liverpool and Everton for a long time, then Arsenal and Manchester United. It always feels like it's been those type of clubs even before the Premier League started for me, just watching football. I think it started in the 80s, if I'm being honest with you, because there was a tolerance in the 80s. If you joined, like myself, you joined Nottingham Forest in the 80s, then you get an attraction from Manchester United want to come and sign you.

1:43:03But you could stay at Forest at the time two years before you get recognised for either international recognition or even other clubs come knocking on the door. So in my case, it was Glasgow Rangers, it was Manchester United. And then you've got to make a decision, am I happy staying at this football club or do I want to go on for a better pay deal or whatever? And I think in the 80s, that was the case. You could keep a side together that could win even a European Cup and keep that side together the next year to win a European Cup at Forest State back-to-back, which is incredible. and then it would take maybe two years, three years and then you would filter away some of your better players.

1:43:50I think as the end of the 80s come, all of a sudden if a Collymore done well for you, he's out the door within a small period of time. Roy Keane comes on the scene. All of a sudden they come. They're just about to hit their halcyon time and someone will say, no, he's too good. We need him at our club and they take him. And that was probably the pre-runner a year or so, a couple of years before the Premier League started. And then everyone started hoovering up. Now, all of a sudden, we're talking massive squads. So you get real talented players getting hoovered up. And kids at seven, eight, nine years old.

1:44:29What's going on at United with that young player? You know, caught in, you know, hardly kicked a ball in the first team at United. All of a sudden, world football wants him. And you think, I almost think, because I've showed a loyalty in my world to a certain club for a long period of time, I almost find it quite sad. People have been hoovered up by big clubs to not play football anymore. You know, and it stifles their careers. I find it sad a little bit. Man, I want to come to you finally and talk us through what could happen. what do you see coming in the next few years once you almost get through this Manchester City situation in terms of the independent regulator?

1:45:14Where's the Premier League going around ownership? What could you see coming in or happening? I think the end of PSR, PSR will get ends this season, this is the last season and then you'll have this squad cost ratio where you're limited to 85 % of your revenue spending on player costs. that should make it easier for owners to inject money into the clubs because even if you do go over that 85 % limit you can just pay a fine. It's like a luxury tax. So if you are up and coming and you're not in Europe you do have a bit of flexibility. I think it's going to be a bit easier to try and make an impression in the Premier League.

1:45:54If you get into Europe though then you have the UEFA rules which are tougher. It's 70 % and also it's a bit like PSA. there's a football earnings rule, you can't rack up massive losses. With the new Premier League rules, you can have financial losses which were bigger than PSR, and as long as you don't breach that revenue limit, you're going to be OK. So I think we will see more flexibility, and I think smaller clubs will be given more of an opportunity to at least establish themselves, perhaps not to challenge the elite, because I think that's still in their favour, isn't it? Because all this commercial income coming in, the bigger clubs just get richer and richer, and I think that's going to continue.

1:46:39But I think we are going to see, certainly the middle of the Premier League, there's going to be more competition there. I read the report, and I think this is what you were just saying, that there was actually, in some ways, it's actually a little bit detrimental to get into European competition now because the rules are slightly different than they are in the Premier League. so it was actually forcing certain clubs this summer to sell more players because they'd actually got in Europe because they'd have to adhere to the UEFA rules which are more strict than the Premier League rules. That just can't be right, can it?

1:47:09Yeah, I mean you had Daichon a week or so ago and I spoke with him about getting into Europe and the implications of that and when I was on the coaching staff at West Ham we got into Europe a few years running and my goodness, to play Thursday, Sunday nights was so, so difficult in the squad that you've got. Well, as I say, and probably some of the clubs that have actually made Europe that might not be ready for it squad-wise, really, really difficult. OK, we've finished there. We've got a community question. Right, it's being sent in by Tom from Belmont. Would you impose a salary and a transfer cap so each club can only spend a maximum amount each season.

1:47:58It's difficult, that. But I would encourage transparency. Football's the only sport in the world where, the only major sport in the world where there's still things like an undisclosed fee for a transfer. I feel like we should know, and again, playing... I think Chelsea probably started now. Probably. But we should know, again, players might not like it, how much everybody's earning and how much exactly it's a penny, how much your transfer fees are as well. I think it's too opaque in football where we don't really know where the finances are but I don't think a salary cap as things are currently constructed would work Is that worldwide or just the Premier League?

1:48:30Yeah because otherwise you can come up you can tell exactly what's going to happen the very next summer if there's a salary cap and a wage cap every player who wants to earn above that will just simply leave the division But the NBA works like the best players still get paid what they're worth Yeah but the NBA hasn't got four different leagues across different countries that will just take their players if they're not paying them well enough Yeah that's fair Do you know what, it's difficult because I think Gary was talking about on Stick to Football about how the club that makes the highest revenue, maybe all of the other clubs should be able to spend within that PSI limit, something along those lines.

1:49:08And I thought, do you know what, that would be really good for the clubs that want to spend, like an Unai Emery who wants to get the players in, wants to go and compete and has the capability of going and competing if he had them sources there, resources there. But then also, does it not become a bit like a draft then? Like if everyone's on the same, is it not a draft? And then it takes away the competition element? I don't know. It's not going to happen, is it? It's never going to happen. It's not happening, don't worry about it. It's a nice way to finish in there by mentioning stick to football on the old Fan Debate podcast.

1:49:36So that's it for another episode of the Fan Debate brought to you by Skybet. Catch you next time.

1:49:47This has been a Global and the Overlap production.

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