Man Utd Lack Spirit & Is Salah Better than Ronaldo & Henry? | The Overlap Fan Debate

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1:57Sadie is a Mochi member compensated for her story He only won two Premier Leagues it wasn't like he won six or seven like yourself so we've always put him as six or seven what did you win? eleven oh we've seen all yous like crying coming out of the Burnabout the other day we're not get yourself in the Champions League this is the headline for the podcast for the pod now you want a statue from Osala maybe a bench I remember that 0-0 and they're all celebrating. Great result. City away, brilliant. It isn't. If you've got no league, it isn't. No one wants to be the nearly man of the Premier League, do they?

2:34Does Mureski need help? I think he needs a P45. Cool. We're mid-table and I'm having the best time ever. There's no doubt in my mind that Jim Ratcliffe will be thinking if we made a mistake. We've got a different ownership and a completely different model to the one you've been... What's it got to do with you? I'm talking to him.

2:56Hello and welcome back to the Fan Debate brought to you by Skybet. We've got our fans here as normal and we've got Scolese on the couch next to me as well. So Scolese, how was the weekend? Yeah, good. A load of football again. Probably watched six or seven games this weekend. I was thinking about today. It was a little bit, I felt like the end of the season a little bit. Oh yeah, it's interesting that, yeah. At both ends really. I think Liverpool are going to win the league. I don't think there's any doubt about that. and then Wolves with a big win as well at Bournemouth. They've stretched to five points clear.

3:29So, yeah, we'll see. I'm sure we'll have a good chat about it in a bit, but the end is nigh. Yeah. Well, the end is not nigh as if a Nottingham Forest. You've still got an awful lot to play for between now and the end of the season, Greg. So you're going to really do the quiz for us, aren't you? So as Leslie Crowder used to say, come on down. Why? Come on, are you doing the quiz? Oh, yeah, I don't do it here normally. You what? Oh, do you stay there? Yeah. Why have I got to get my head that someone stands here? Just don't want to put everyone in there. Just don't want to ever stand there. Just don't want to stand there.

4:05I think I say this to everyone, come down, don't I? Sorry. Oh, my God. Swinging seat. Yeah, the great Leslie Trader line and everything. Just never landed. Right, let's get on with the quiz. We're super happy to the last one as well. I've just got fingers crossed for you. You don't get as much stick on social media as Mr Arston last week. I believe that. I mean, Rory, you went two footers on him as well, didn't you? I deleted that. It's all right, then it never happened. It's outrageous. Right. Let's go. Which manager led Nottingham Forest to European glory? Ryan Clough. What wing song has played pre-match at the city ground?

4:46Mull of Kintyre. Which team did Nottingham Forest defeat in the Championship play-off final to return to the Premier League in 2022? Huddersfield. Yeah. Name four permanent Scottish managers that have taken charge of Forrest since the turn of the millennium. Oh, gosh. Permanent. My head's gone pan. Move, yeah. Name the player that joined Forrest for£35 million in 2024. Anderson. Yeah. How many seasons did Forrest spend outside the Premier League before their promotion in 2022? 23. In the 94-95 season, Forrest finished third in the Premier League. Who was their top scorer? Collymore. Roy Keane joined Forrest from which club?

5:25Oh, pass. Which club did Forrest beat to remain in the Premier League in 2023? Arsenal. Which side knocked Nottingham Forrest out of the 95-96 UEFA Cup? Munich. Yeah. Which referee was hired as a referee analyst in 2024? Klattenberg. Great guy. Lars Mohin joined Forrest from which club in 93? Pass. How many first-team permanent signers did Forrest make across the 22-23 season? 24, 20 or 18? 24. Yeah. That's it. Great. Wow.

6:03Time, time is quick as well, yeah. Ten. I knew it was. Good effort out, Greg. Yeah, well done, Greg. A lot of passes there as well, aren't you?

6:19Right, the only place to start is with Gareth, Liverpool supporter, on the back of yesterday.

6:28Have Liverpool won the league? Well, it seems it's all over, bar the shouting, doesn't it? I think I'd have my doubts about it if we were being chased down by an absolute machine like we've had with Manchester City in the past. But we're being chased down by a team that when I watched them recently, even before Saturday, I just thought that doesn't look sustainable and then obviously the result comes in Liverpool have taken advantage of that brilliantly so in my opinion and now yeah we've just got to get it done I mean I was trying to work it out I think everyone's trying to work it out if Arsenal keep winning and we keep winning it'll come down to Anfield I think when we play them but I don't think it'll get there because I just don't think Arsenal keep winning I don't think they've got 12 wins in them so for that reason yeah I think it's done Was you there yesterday?

7:12No I couldn't get a ticket away tickets at the moment are absolute gold dust because as you'd imagine and I was always someone asking for favours and right now no one's coming in for me because they all want to be there for every game don't they so I have to make do with their own ones at the minute We've got the rivalry with Arsenal in terms of the title and when you could win and when you could you know Liverpool could win the league I think probably most people in here would say as Scoles as you just mentioned before you feel as if there was almost like a line in the sand maybe at both ends of the table over the weekend but most Salah again you know that performance and the reason I mention Arsenal as well because I think probably most people in the room would say Thierry Henry well I certainly would in terms of the greatest player to have in the Premier League are we seeing something in Salah here that is getting to that level and could if he signs a new contract maybe even surpass that?

8:04I don't know what other people think but I'm struggling to think of a player that improves season on season like he does in his 30s. Because he seems to constantly bring something else to his game. I think that's the key thing. So, you know, I think his touch has got better. I think he's stronger as a player now. I mean, Liverpool, for a lot of the season, their out ball has been Salah. And Salah's always got someone on them. And Salah backs himself to bring it down, use his strength. He'll either win a free kick or he'll turn you and he'll be away. And Liverpool know that and so they give him the ball all the time.

8:36And every team obviously tries to stop Salah. And they can't. and his touch is unbelievable. I think he's maybe lost a little bit of pace, but then what he's added to that is the assists, is the vision. Some of the passes he plays now, I think are way beyond what he was playing when he first came to the club. Obviously, he scored 44 in his very first season at Liverpool. He's on to outdo that this season, but he's added the assist to it. And when you look at the assist table, if you like, for Liverpool, he's got 21 this season. And next down is Trent with seven. and that's unbelievable to be rattling in 30 goals and 21 assists I think that must make him the most potent attacker in Europe right now you've got to sign the new contract you've got to get him signed and he's only going up isn't he at the moment I'm not sure he's lost his pace Gareth it's still there I think if you compare it to maybe when he first arrived I think he was faster I don't think he's slow don't get me wrong I was going to say he was still running away from his guard guard yesterday and Gareth was quickish, yeah.

9:42So, yeah, I know what you mean, the legs do go a little bit, but still. Not much, yeah. Not much, yeah. Can I ask you, as a Liverpool supporter, I said this on TV yesterday, you think of the Daglish generation, you know, that's too young for me, and then I played with Steve, and now you've almost, another generation later, is Mo Salah. Where would you, where is Mo Salah in that conversation? Because it's always felt like, the older generation say Daglish, the younger generation, who saw Stevie say Stevie. What are we talking here? I know. It is hard. I mean, it was always Stephen for me and that he was the legend who I saw him make his debut and I saw him play right through to the end of his Liverpool career.

10:24And he was unbelievable, obviously. He lifted us up from places where it didn't look like it was on. He'd take everything on his shoulders and win the game for you. Mo Salah's done that plenty of times now, hasn't he? Mo Salah is not just a big game player. He's almost every game. he'll do something I think sometimes you'll watch him and think not being in it much today or flash one over the bar and you'll think oh he's not on it and then he'll do something and I think he said himself in an interview that he knows he's a moments player and he's alright with that mentally and I think he's accepted that he doesn't have to be on the ball over and over again he just has to do something win the game for Liverpool set a goal up whereas I think Stevie wanted to be everything all the time he was everywhere wasn't he if anything with him you had to almost calm him down a little bit and say conserve your energy a bit you don't have to be there, there, there, I'm there just stay there you know like when there was that season Benitez put him on the wing wasn't there and he ended up being player of the season so yeah he's right up there I mean he's the third top goal scorer in the history of the club now and I always say on our podcast that you know I think if you sat him down you probably wouldn't say it in public but I think if you sat him down and said do you think you can catch Ian Rush I think he'd go yeah I'll give it a good go I don't think he rules any record out.

11:40The amount of records he broke yesterday, we could sit here for an hour and go do them all. I didn't think I'd... Listen, great players come, you know, and I didn't think, how could anyone do more for Steve? You know, his whole career at the club, what happened in Istanbul, the cup final the year later, but if Salah not keeps going when he's doing this season, because he's going to get player of the year, I don't think anyone's won PFA player of the year three times. and if he wins the Ballon d 'Or as well, I'm thinking, I hope Stevie's not watching, but even though he's my man in football, I play with him, I wouldn't probably be sitting on this couch if it wasn't for Stevie because I'd probably have no trophies.

12:21If someone argued that Salah was Liverpool's number one player, if he wins the Ballon d 'Or, if he wins another PFA Player of the Year, you almost can't argue against it in some ways. If you love Stevie, you grew up watching him yourself. You know what I mean? the things that he could achieve are just mind-blowing I think some of the stats as well, I think there was something yesterday where his assists for the season are matching something Dal Gleashed did in 84-85 I think, and so when you're starting to match that greatness, and match greatness of Steven Gerrard as well, I mean I think he's going to be talked about forever isn't he, he's that kind of player now you know it's one of them where Liverpool have already got all kinds of statues and things around the ground as it is they've got to find space for something to mark Mo Salah's career.

13:07So hang on, this is the headline for the podcast, for the pod now. You want a statue for Mo Salah? Well, maybe a bench. He likes that thing where he sits down, doesn't he? So, you know, you maybe should go down. What more would he have to do to get a statue, though? I mean, surely. And is it a foregone conclusion that he's the best player the Premier League's ever seen over Henry? Does winning league title as well? Sorry, just before that, does winning... Sorry. No, no, no. Try to define the best player in Liverpool's history, which to me would still be probably Kenedag Leach. But because he won the league so many times, and I know Mo Salah is lucky, he's brilliant, he's been an amazing player and he's an amazing player now, but has he won the league once with them?

13:55And I know Stevie didn't win the league either, but should that define, that's what I mean, should that be the difference between the best and not the best? I think trophies has to come into it. I do agree on that. But when we talk about Thierry Henry, I don't know if you agree with that as well, Scores, about Thierry Henry. Obviously, you play with some absolutely great players at United. But the point about Thierry was, he only won two Premier Leagues. It wasn't like he won six or seven like yourself. And we've always put him as right. I think once you've won it once or twice. Six or seven? What did you win?

14:26Eleven. Oh! You know what?

14:35Oh my God, this is going to go viral. You know why I said that? Because yesterday on the TV, Royce came up with seven. I just had that in me as an apology. That will never happen again. But I think once you... That goes to show you, it doesn't matter how many league titles you win. Do you know what I mean? You can still be the best around. I think in some ways for Stevie at Liverpool, it wasn't because he never won the league, but it was always a case of he didn't play with those type of players and he still it was almost like a badge of honour which is what I'm saying you could probably say a little bit about Salah being a thing no and they went well look it's going to be two this year but again they've had great teams to compete with you think they're the City teams that's why you can't define it I don't think by winning who would you say was the greatest player to play in the Premier League if I turn about that I've always had sort of Henri and then Ronaldo probably just behind but I think Salah's going past Ronaldo now and it's a case of Salah ain't ahead of Rooney for me Salah ahead of Rooney he's not ahead of Rooney and I think Cristiano Ronaldo I think yesterday you said it's the best individual season and I thought let me go back and kind of refresh my memory on 07-08 Ronaldo he isn't ahead of 07-08 Ronaldo for me either I think Ryan Giggs has to come into the I know you might think it's all bad you play the Giggs you might but I saw you do something the other day 20 years you put him as you've done your top five Man United players of all time and I saw that yeah longevity for what I did not just a longevity but you've got to be a good player while you're doing that you know what I mean he changed from being that winger who's flying past people the young player who got everyone off their feet and almost got the game and the crowd going and then for the last five years of his career he was a central midfielder and was brilliant what did he how many leagues did he in 13 I think so I think he has to come in 6-0-7 13 so I think he has to come in that conversation you know we talk about Thierry Henry how many years was Thierry Henry I don't know but winning two league again I find it hard saying you only won two league titles no Champions League yeah with Arsenal anyways it's just I'm stuck in between you know what I mean finding the best players but the best players normally win titles as well it's a difficult one Adam it's interesting you say that because that's the season we remember from Ronaldo and arguably that could be the greatest Man United team or season, maybe that sort of era of Rooney and Ronaldo.

17:05But we only went off those numbers yesterday in terms of goals and assists. I know there's a lot more to the game than just numbers, but what were the numbers? Because I know Ronaldo got 40 goals. He got 42 goals and eight assists in the Prem. I think it was 31 and 7. I think I'm getting the numbers just right. But I think when you look at the catalogue of goals he scored, You've got the goals like we saw against Porto, where he scores from like 40 yards, and the free kick against Arsenal, although I think that was a year later. There was a volley he scored against Fulham in the box, which was unbelievable, dribbling and shooting from the edge, headers, like his catalogue of goals.

17:39He just scored all sorts of different kind of goals. And I thought Cristiano Ronaldo that season was just a joke. And to add to it, it was a three-peat. He won three times in a row. Did he win the Ballon d 'Or that season? Sorry? Did he win the Ballon d 'Or while he was at? All 7-0-8, yeah. Yeah, that's a big achievement, isn't it? He replaced Kaka, who was the holder of it, and he was competing with Messi. And I think you look at who he's competing with for the Ballon d 'Or as well, I think that speaks volumes. That's why I probably didn't bring him into that conversation, because it was one year.

18:09Do you know what I mean? Now, look, he was sensational for the amount of time he was there. But I think if you're going to talk about the best Premier League ever, he's got to be over a certain amount of time. He did it over three seasons, because 07, he came back to the World Cup. I know that, but that year was, Unbelievable. He was the best in the world at that point. I'm just thinking more longevity than... Not longevity, but at least... You're looking longevity. Six, seven, eight years. He went to Real Madrid. He'd probably give Real Madrid the best years of his career. Do you know what I mean?

18:38But just because he got better and he was phenomenal at Real Madrid, that doesn't mean we should overlook what he did in the Premier League. I'm not doing. But if he'd have been here for seven, eight, nine years, then without a show of doubt... But in three years, he did more than Henri did. if we want to talk about trophies and all that kind of thing he eclipsed Henry in three years I can feel James wanting to come in I was just thinking about that Ballon d 'Or I think Thierry was really unlucky not to win one I think it was 2003 or 2004 Cannavaro won one I think Nedved won one as well and that was really Thierry's year I think when you look at what Salah's doing now it reminds me of Henry I have to be honest Henry broke that assist record about 20 years ago I think he got 21 assists something like that De Bruyne had got robbed Don't get me started on that clip.

19:24We'll come to you in a minute. He's held that for some time and he took the role of the centre-forward or the striker to another level, added all these different elements to the game. I think Salah's doing the same. Thierry in that period, 2001 to 2004, I think was untouchable in the Premier League. Absolutely outstanding. I agree, actually, that that is an Arsenal team that probably should have won more trophies than it did and especially that Champions League in 2004 I think will always go down as a big miss so it's how you weigh the individual talent against the accolades Again that's only three years isn't it Yeah it was a good three years though Yeah brilliant three years and it was unbelievable yeah of course it was but for three years you weren't the best Premier League player ever it just Yeah I mean the longevity thing is interesting isn't it you know I think Giggs Giggs is an interesting shout just purely for the period of time.

20:24But it wasn't just the period of time, it was equality with it. Me and Rory were always banging on about it because everyone seems to forget about Giggsie and kind of overlook what he achieved and stuff. The different eras of the style of player he was, like you said, becoming a central midfielder, I think he was 40 years old, dominating teams in the Champions League. And that flying winger that he was early on was just phenomenal. If you think of all these players that we mentioned, you think, who's the one you pick from the Premier League era to go into your team right now. And it's Harry Kane.

20:58I think it's probably Mo Salah. It probably is Mo Salah. I don't think he's a laughable. It wasn't that funny. I think you'd take any of them, wouldn't you, Salah? I'd take absolutely any of them. Out of all of them, for the longevity, I'd probably pick Salah.

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23:28OK, well, listen, we've had a good little debate about individual players. Now to go back to the team who are still chasing Liverpool. James, does it feel to you as an Arsenal fan on the groundswell of opinion? now, that felt like a pivotal moment in terms of losing at the weekend to West Ham and then seeing Liverpool win. Yeah, it was big. It was big. And this is going to sound strange, but when Liverpool kicked off against City, I almost had this feeling of just going to beat them. Kill me now. Do you know what I mean? The sort of emotional exhaustion of we're in it, we're out, it's on, it's off.

24:01I think there is a bit of clarity now. I do think Liverpool are going to win the league. And we've spoken about Mohamed Salah. I think Arsenal at their very best would do well to keep pace with a team with a player having that kind of season when you've got that sort of extraordinary individual effort. But this isn't Arsenal at their best. It's not the Arsenal of last year or the year before. And Liverpool might drop points. They might drop a few points here and there. But I don't really have faith that this Arsenal has the kind of consistency to close that gap over what remains. Yeah, I was thinking about Arsenal and I actually think they've been a little bit unlucky in that I think sometimes it's about timing and I think the Arsenal of last season if that's playing this season this is this is a real type this is a real sort of fight between Liverpool and Arsenal to the wire because you know last season you're at your best but City are still City City have had to drop off this season and I think the worry for Arsenal is and I take it back to when I played for Liverpool under Arteta he's been there I think five years and every year you get better you bump bump and you get to that point and we got there under Julier, we got there under Benitez and when you just don't make that final step, we dropped off massively.

25:18Now, when you're saying you weren't the team of the last two years, are you a little bit worried that we've actually seen peak Arsenal and Arteta? I think we have actually. The second half of last season, I think was the best. I thought Arsenal were brilliant, as good as anybody in Europe and I was watching them every week thinking this is a proper team. Do you worry that Mikel Arteta will not get this team back to that level again? I think he can. I think they've had plateaus, but I think there's a, use the word unlucky. I mean, I think in the last couple of years, they're actually quite fortunate in terms of having the players they had available.

25:52They had their centre-halves. They had their central midfielder. They had their attack intact. This year, it's not been the same. They've not had the players. You look at the moment, they haven't got their first choice for attackers. Do they have enough depth there? No, probably not. But still, that's really hurt them. so I feel like with a fit squad with a fully fit squad with the right signings maybe they can get back there but it is a worry you're right to raise it and no one wants to be the nearly men of the Premier League do they you know and I think Has anyone ever finished second three times?

26:25I think it might be Arsenal It's their own record Is it? It's their own record Yeah Yeah well I guess that tells a story doesn't it but I think they can go again I mean obviously there's a bit of with Liverpool City have obviously dropped off Liverpool I don't know what Liverpool we're going to see next season as brilliant as they've been this year you know there might be change there there might be flux we don't know so I think Arsenal will approach next season thinking that they're in it but for this year I definitely think it's done do you think there's a lot of criticism around the manager and spending money and buying players I mean is that a massive error on their part or do you sort of can you understand where they've come from I think it is a mistake when you look at the building of the squad the balance of the squad everyone talks about January and you know they should have done something in January I'd go back further than that I'd look at the summer I'd say what did they bring in what did they spend their money on they spent quite a lot of money on Calafuri a left back in a position where they had players and also Myles Lewis-Skelly has really come through and done tremendously well.

27:38And then they spent a lot of money on Mikel Moreno, who I think was not the right profile of midfield player in terms of, it's not a great investment. He was like 27, 28. There's not really big value there in the future. But also, with respect to him, he's kind of a functional midfield player. He's not a creator. And I think what we've seen with Arsenal a bit is that the creative responsibility has fallen primarily to Martin Odegaard. his form has dropped off, dipped, and there's been nobody there really to pick up that baton, especially with the injuries on top. So I think the squad was constructed a little bit wrong.

28:13I think if there'd been more emphasis on the attack, I think Arsenal would be in a better position now. Yeah, well, OK. Luke, I mean, we were told after the game yesterday that I still think Liverpool go on and win the league and they always say, OK, who's going to challenge the champions next season? I think I'd probably still back Manchester City more than Arsenal right now. Have you almost got still a little bit of a feel-good factor about the new signings in January, where you could go next season? Are you down in the dumps a bit? Yeah, I wouldn't say I'm down in the dumps by any means because everyone knows how hard it is to win a Premier League title.

28:54To win four in a row, there's a reason it's never been done before. Pep said recently he doesn't think it'll ever be done again. Did you know to City put that on the... Yeah, I think we're well within our own right to do that as well. Do you know what I mean? Six in seven years. I don't think... Some City fans will be very reactionary on social media, stuff like that. And that's what everyone sees at the end of the day in this era. But I'm not down in the dumps at all. I was a bit down in the dumps when we won one in 13. But I think we've come on a bit since then. You know, it's not been amazing.

29:24The Real Madrid game, as I said, I don't think many fans had much confidence for that. We got knocked out. But the second leg for me was very poor. But again, yesterday against Liverpool wasn't great. I think there were moments, though, and you can highlight, for example, Kuzanov, some of the new signings. I think we've basically just got to use this rest of the season as almost like a springboard into next year, like you said. We'll probably invest more in the summer. There's going to be a lot of players that leave. And I don't think it's unfair to say that we're all challenged for the title next season.

29:52I hope we do. What areas, I mean, I'll ask you first, Scores. I mean, you know what it takes to win a league title. What areas of the team do you look at with Manchester City and think they need to improve? Also, do you think they need to go invest in that area? I think that this year has been a real problem keeping people fit, I suppose. I think the back four has probably been different all the time. I don't think the keeper has been as good this probably last 18 months, couple of years, to where he was at. right back left back I think they both could be a issue I see Guardiola is he a left back is he a centre half I still don't really know is he good enough to play centre half I think he was bought as a centre half but they've shoved him out to that left back position because they're not really sure he's good enough Ruben Diaz again doesn't look quite good I think there's areas of the team the new midfield player who's come in I'm not sure he's a Rodri type anyway is he but he's having to play that role is he someone that I'll go and replace De Bruyne.

30:54I'm not sure. De Bruyne looks like he's a little bit leggy now. He looks like he's coming towards the end of his career. What you say about him, and I probably think of you a little bit, not exactly the same type of player, but he's probably going to go, isn't he? I would imagine probably to Saudi in the summer. He's one of the best we've ever seen. Yeah, I was just going to say, he has to come in a conversation when we talk about the best Premier League. He's been brilliant. And then you see, there comes a point now and you feel that points coming when you saw him yesterday, then let your legs totally go, but they go a little bit.

31:28And when you're playing against the best teams, it's so obvious. I think, did he play in the Madrid the first game against Liverpool yesterday? It happened to us, it happened to me, it happened to every single midfield player. At some point you think, right, I think that's time to move. And it felt a little bit like that. And you don't like saying that about against unbelievable players like the Broner, but you just think it's coming. I think he's our best ever player, to be honest. Yeah, I would say that. I think I'd say him and then probably David Silva underneath that. Yeah, when somebody's done it for 10 years, it's difficult to let them go.

32:00And I think there's a lot of emotional attachment between obviously the fans and not only that, and Pep with a lot of this squad. You look at the Gundawans, you look at, you know, Bernardo Silva's only 30, but he's been going for so long. It's difficult. Midfield is an issue. Some of these players, unfortunately, are going to have to go. And I think when there's that much success in the team, it's difficult to let them go. And I think that's probably one of the struggles we've had, not letting them go early, maybe a couple of these players. You went through sort of where you think they need to improve.

32:28I think obviously right back would probably be a big area. I think watching it yesterday, you think of like Dockery, when he caused tense problems, but he's not good enough for Man City. Savini, I think he's had a good season. It looks to me, when I think of the City teams, you think initially of Sane and Steele, and you think of Mahrez was a brilliant player. I think he's lacking a real great wide player. The one with Savino, he's 20 years old. I think he has kicked on since he first came in as well. I think he struggled quite a bit at first. Yeah, I think that's a fair judgment, maybe the end product for Docu wasn't there yesterday.

33:01But I thought, for me, he just kept beating Trent and whipping it into Haaland. And Haaland was in the stand watching. I think if Haaland was playing yesterday, that game could have been a little bit different. There was just no presence in the band. Van Dijk was... Van Dijk, wasn't he? So that was... Jumper with McAtee and Foden. I was like, what are we doing here? And Rico Lewis was marking him on the corner. he scored from as well. I don't know who set that up. It was weird that he kept slinging balls into the box. Yeah, it was bizarre. There's a problem with recruitment though. Part of the issue, you've got Pep Guardiola going through the stuff he's going through and it's not quite clicking.

33:30It happens to football teams. You've got Rodri that's dropped out and on top of that, that's compounded by the players coming in probably not being good enough. Yeah, I think there's... When everyone tries to highlight one issue, I think there's so many issues. There's so many different issues going on. Is there burnout? I know Foden's talked about that. Different players have had different issues. Pep, like you said, recruitment. I think there's a lot of issues that have all just kind of gone into a big ball and exploded at the same time. But what's happened to Foden this year? Because I don't know if Pep, he left him out a lot at the start of the season.

34:01I know he had a little spell where he scored them goals, but he's just not been quite the same. I think it's so difficult at that age playing 70 games. He struggled at the Euros, he got a lot of stick then. I think it's just burnout. I have no doubt he'll be back to his best, but I think it's just one of them where on his kind of upward trajectory has a bit of a drop-off and I think it's just difficult. I think it's a difficult one. It's weird with City, isn't it? Because it's really difficult to articulate the case that Guardiola's made mistakes. You go, Guardiola made a mistake. Everyone goes, shut up mate, he won four in a row.

34:29And it's really difficult to argue with it. I think Guardiola got this wrong. What are you on about? He hit Centurions. So it's so hard to say. He hasn't made mistakes. I think when Flav mentioned there about recruitment, sorry, when he mentioned about recruitment, making mistakes there, I can't think of many mistakes. Cole Palmer. Colt Palmer? I'm thinking about players coming into the club. Mateo Provitic isn't good enough, Mateus Nunes isn't good enough. There's a couple who just thought they weren't, they're nowhere near what they have. I think it's earlier to choose the three latter I've just come in.

34:59Colt Palmer linking up with Erling Haaland would be unbelievable, wouldn't it? Who? Colt Palmer linking up with Erling Haaland. They had to sell Colt Palmer. He couldn't get in the team. Morgan Rodgers would do a far better job than most young men. He stank it up at Lincoln, mate. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, but somebody at the club has to have the foresight to say that he's going to turn into a good player. Football is unpredictable. You have players that you think are going to be nothing. Chelsea, you literally give away at work. I gave nobody away. KDB and Salah, you're just talking about two of the best Premier League players ever.

35:26It doesn't mean his point's not right. I didn't do that. I think that somebody at Chelsea... It's amazing how one bad season and Masava sort of saying players aren't working. So many players he bought through. years and not for loads and loads of money that other clubs have brought but it's easy to come in so much easier to come into a team that are flying and flying and flying now these three that have just come in I've got to find it difficult because City are struggling a little bit but it might take a bit of time and I agree I think City will be the ones again that will probably go closer to Liverpool They could finish above Arsenal this year I agree I think City could capitulate losing at home to West Ham They already haven't Yeah exactly a little bit more than that It's certainly possible that they end up finishing.

36:12It's just the way City are, though. They don't look like they're going to win every game. Yeah, I think we're a bit in. I don't think we've... We're nine points, effectively, behind them. You still play them? No, we've played them twice. I think Arsenal will be all right on that one. I think Arsenal will finish five or six above City. The thing is, Arsenal are still a good team. They're a good team, but Liverpool are having a great season. Even if it's just for the banter, I'd rather them come second anyway. Arsenal are a good team, aren't they? Artes has done great on it, but you just seem to always find somebody don't you that's going to be better than you I think it actually got mentioned yesterday was it last year when they went to City and City had like four or five injuries and I think did it finish you spoke about that last season didn't you yeah I just thought watch what Liverpool did yesterday they went there and we win it we win the league they're the things you've got to do Arsenal went there 0-0 four or five injuries great time to play City going for the league title and just didn't capitulate, but they didn't really try and win a game.

37:11You've got to go to these teams who are next year, who are fighting with you and win. Arsenal have shown they're just not capable of doing that yet. Now, whether they will do it in the next couple of years, I don't know. Will they fall off a cliff? I don't know. It's just... And I remember that 0-0 and they were all celebrating. Great. City away, brilliant. It isn't. It isn't. If you've got to win a league, it isn't. That one at Anfield, do you remember when they were 2-0 up as well? And they just... Do you remember that game? Yeah. Granit Xhaka and Trent. Yeah, that was part of a bad run of games.

37:39They gave away a lead at West Ham as well in that run. That title got away from them there.

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39:27We're talking about teams who are struggling to win, Adam. I wouldn't say teams that are in the tightrope. I mean, go on, you tell me what you thought about watching that game. I thought it was a pretty dreadful performance apart from the last 20 minutes. I was surprised to see us even get back into it, to be totally honest with you. Let me just add for the record, Ash Leong is a disgraceful diver. He's got a band on the bet. But it was all right when he was in a Man United. It was all right when he did it for us, yeah, yeah. But I thought that was a disgrace. But no, generally the performance was really, really poor.

40:00Even some players that have done okay recently have seemed to have dropped off a cliff as well. I thought Masrawi throughout the season has been quite strong for us, quite good. But he looks like he's tired, he's a little bit fatigued, his back's probably hurting from carrying the team a little bit. To 15th? No, but he's been... Don't you start. But he's in the team. Carrying the team. You'd know all about 15th. It's where you would be without a sugar daddy, you know that. Whatever, mate, whatever. No, but he has been very good for Manchester United this season. You remember that from when we beat you at X10, remember?

40:33Well without that You'd actually be in the relegation talk Mate you're only What? 10 points above that So We've seen all yous like crying Coming out of the Bernabeu The other day Sack Pep Get yourself in the Champions League mate And then I'll talk Don't worry We'll be in the Champions League When we're in the Europa League And you'll be outside it Be funny that 15th place in the Champions League When you're outside Adam Adam Why is it not getting any better Under Adam You look at the squad The squad The squad isn't there We had a bench No but it shouldn't be this bad No but It shouldn't be this bad You look at the squad And it is It isn't It is very, very bad.

41:03Man Utd haven't got the 15 risk. He doesn't want Casemiro. No, we shouldn't be 15. That's right. But he's also trying to change something. He's trying to change the team. We haven't got the players to play the system he wants to play, but I kind of admire him having to stick with it because ultimately, if we find out whether players are not good enough or good enough now for him for next season... Should we change the system? I debate a lot with people about Amorun a little bit about the system and change. Do you feel he should adapt and change if he hasn't got the players to play this way right now?

41:36The formation, maybe, no. But in terms of maybe the style of play at times, how open the midfield can be at times, yes. But isn't that down? That comes from the formation, though, doesn't it? Not always, no. It depends where your players are in and out of possession, isn't it? And there was actually times, again, on the weekend in the second half where we went to back four, weirdly, and then started scoring all the goals. but I do think when you look at some of the key players in key positions they're just not good enough Hoyland isn't holding the ball up Cido Wolby's 17 year old came on for 10 minutes and more than him he's not ready for men's football I don't think but he did more in 10 minutes than Hoyland did all game Adam do you think the manager's backed himself into a corner where now he just can't change but I don't think he should I genuinely if we've brought him here there is an argument about that people talk about it remember the Southampton manager at the start of the season Russell Martin.

42:27Russell Martin is saying, I can't go and tell my players to play differently because they won't look at me the same. You're getting beat every week. Surely a great coach. Okay, I think even Pep said this about it. He said, great coaches, they stick with the philosophy and that's it and that's what they do. But great managers also have to be able to adapt and change, I think. I think of probably one of the greatest, if not the greatest ever in Sir Alex. We was playing in Europe. and we was always a 4-4-2 or a 4-4-1-1. And we struggled in Europe for a long, long time. So he went to the 4-5-1 basically and we were boring.

43:05We were boring to death going away from home. But he started getting results and we ended up going to a Champions League throughout four years, didn't win it twice because of Barcelona. So that to me is changing and having an effect on your team to get different results. I think as long as you carry on playing the system and he's backed himself into a corner doing it, but you're getting beat and you're playing so badly every week. Sure, there's something that has to change. You're out fourth as well, though, which is what I did. I'm sitting down watching it. I know Everton have been on a good run and Moyes has got them going and all that, but they shouldn't be out running yet and out fighting yet.

43:46That basic stuff that you should get from any pro, basically, that wasn't there, especially in the first half, was it? I do think, you're probably right in terms of adapting certain things, but he wants to play out from the back. You've got Harry Maguire, who's not good enough in possession of the ball. You've got De Ligt, who wasn't good enough in possession of the ball. And Majerawi, who, like I said, hasn't been performing. We've lost Lissandro Martinez, who's probably the only one who can come from that position and play out from the back. You look in the midfield, he's not fancied Casemiro all season.

44:18Since he's got there, he's not wanted him at all. He's just had to play him. And he has to play him in there. And then Bruno Fernandes is looking better when he's dropping deeper because he's the only one that is good in possession of the ball. So I do feel sorry for him in terms of the options that he has at the moment. I would have liked to have seen him maybe try a few of the youngsters out when we were against Spurs because he had nothing to lose. He's not in a position to do that, is he? No, but we've got nothing to lose. We're 15th. Try a few of the lads. You never know. You talk about that last 20 minutes were really good and shown a bit of braveness.

44:50We were saying this before. people rave about it in the last 20 minutes oh yeah they were brilliant Sean great character you've got to do that in the first 20 minutes Everton was like not the good old days but it was like it was hostile the players the great energy the crowd were on top of them where are you then? where's Bruno Fernandes then? that's when you win your games of football because you get to 60 minutes and you know Everton they've flown about they've got to be wrecked they've got to be knackered and even if you just keep it nil-nil by being brave keeping possession away from maybe scoring a goal But that last half an hour at Goodison, that's when you win the game, as you've shown.

45:25But they haven't got the balls, they haven't got the bollocks to do that in the first 20 minutes, half an hour. Is there anything in, because I find myself almost contradicting myself when I speak about Amaran, because when I talk about maybe Ange, I've said, oh, he always plays the same way, he doesn't adapt. But I have got something with Amaran where I think when a manager is so stuck and rigid to his system and throughout his managerial career, I think he's only played it back four, four times. And it's not so much the system, it's almost that's his DNA. It's like asking Klopp not to press.

45:58So I actually speak differently about Tamar than I probably do about the other managers, because he's so, that's his thing. That's what you brought him here to do. So it's like asking, as I said, it's like asking Pep not to play small midfield players. That's his thing. Remember when Tenard came out and said after like a month, I can't play the football, I play the Ajax. and everyone went, why the hell are you here then? And that's why you need someone to come in. And if you do, I know it sounds like I'm making excuses for him, but if you look at the squad, there's literally not much there. Where's the squad going to come from?

46:29Well, we have to start making better decisions in terms of our recruitment, not wasting money on certain players. And I think if you do get rid of a few, like Anthony's finally doing something, so hopefully he can boost his price tag, Rashford, you can bring money in. So hopefully we can make some changes. Also, you look at the recruitment they're doing, like the likes of Leni Yarrow, they're bringing in a lot of good younger talent to hopefully grow, which is what you need to focus on. You mentioned that Ten Hag, not being able to play what he played at Ajax. You look at Ajax's side and it was incredible.

47:02They had clearly the best team in Erevedici. They're playing in a bad league, but also one of the best teams in Europe. They should have, if it weren't for Spurs, got to the final of the Champions League. If it weren't for Spurs. Do you not remember that? Yeah, yeah. I watch it every day. But what I'm saying is, the same reason why Amarim was signed and the reason why Ten Hag was signed was the brand of football and the total dominance in their respective leagues. It's completely different. He's not going to be given the time to do that, is he? But he needs to be given the time. Yeah, but there's a different, and I hate to admit this, a level of expectation at Man City, Man United and Tottenham.

47:42And also, we had to endure Mourinho and Conte before. My point being is, I think you make a good point. I think when you get managers from leagues where they're dominating the ball, they're the best team, their out-of-possession stuff isn't as important. So if you're in Sporting Lisbon and you're always in the top, you know, you're in the league or you come in second, you dominate most of the games. You're now coming into a league where, because of the squad of players, forget how big Man United are. It's the same with Tottenham in terms of Ange being at Celtic. You're not going to be the best team in the league.

48:09So the problem that both teams have, and I think a lot of Tottenham's problems as well, is actually without the ball. You know, because maybe the managers I'm not saying we don't have the culture I don't mean that but they just haven't been that hasn't been their game for the last three or four years because they've been dominating games of football The difference in leagues is a good point when you think of the Dutch league and the Portuguese league very much I think Arne Slapped made a good point when he said 11 points clear in any other league this is done it's game over but in England there's so much good teams and quality about it you just can't relax Are they United?

48:44this isn't a dig because in previous years I'd have said it why are you so worried about United all the time are they actually looking to be staying up though are you looking in another year could United have gone down that's not a joke it's a genuine question if the likes of Ipswich had a handful more points I think what is it about 12 points could United have actually gone down well yeah if it's like less than Southampton another 14 points yeah we'd probably get down my thing is is that good management like doesn't he have to pick up more points doesn't he have to need to win more games like I understand having a philosophy and an idea but don't you have to be more pragmatic than that isn't he going to lose credibility even within the dressing room you know are these players going to believe in this idea when week after week they're not winning a football match that would be my I listen the people at the top at Man United they're only human we're all the same there's no doubt in my mind that Jim Ratcliffe will be thinking if we made a mistake he must be thinking in that.

49:44I'm not saying he has. You can't bring a manager in mid-season a manager who at the start goes you know what, I'd rather come in in the summer by the way. You can't bring a manager in mid-season have no money for him in the January transfer window not give him anything see the squad shot to bits, you let Rashford go, you let Anthony go, you let all these players go not replace them and then go halfway through the season, through his first season, you know what we're not going to give you the time to turn things around. I think everyone talks about these ideals of Manchester United needing to change their culture, needing to get a manager in, give them time, needing to allow a manager to let his philosophy get across.

50:18Now, I'm not saying that means with time it's guaranteed to be a success. But everyone seems to preach these ideals, but then when it comes to it, they haven't got the patience to stick around for it. Now, I've seen you say that on your podcast, I've seen that on social media, and I'm not saying Man United should change the manager. My point being is, I think when a manager comes in at a club, I'm not expecting Man United to be amazing. But I'm not expecting to see this. And it's not even a result. Sometimes you're seeing something in a game. and I was thinking about this the other day because people keep talking about the system.

50:46Remember Glasner came in at Crystal Palace. He came in, that was his thing. He was known when he came in, this is what this guy does. He plays 3-4-3 or 5 at the back. This is his DNA. This is what he does. And straight away last season, you could see the impact on Crystal Palace. Now, we knew they weren't going to win every week. We knew it wasn't going to be amazing. They've gone back to being Palace this season, but always mid-table, just below mid-table. But you could see something and feel something. and I was massively positive about Amor and his press conference I really enjoyed, he was so sort of confident and articulate, I'd done a big piece on Monday Night Football against Liverpool, how the system caused Liverpool problems, Liverpool didn't quite know who they were picking up, you know this system can work in certain situations, but it's been so bad, I'm just saying, there must be a thought in the head thinking, have we gone a bit early with this guy, he's still only 40, this is not a guy, and don't forget, the managers in the Premier League are the best in the world he's come up against managers that are just that are better than him that's just a fact because he's 40 years of age he can't he can't know everything about management he's only a young guy who's had a brilliant start in his managerial career that's why Liverpool looked at him that's why Man United have took him but I'm not saying they should change their manager I'm not saying that but as James just said because the result in performance is that bad that will create doubt it's just human nature in the dressing room and in the boardroom it worries me I know what you're saying there Jamie because when you lose every week there is going to be that disconnect and I'm sure they must be growing further apart I'm sure John Cleary is stepping back and thinking have I done the right thing and I feel sorry for the manager a little bit because he came in with Dan Ashworth was going to be there he's going to be the one next to him and I feel like I felt like with Ten Hag there was a big gap from his side and his staff side and the football side to the ownership and I don't want that to happen again I feel I feel like it is happening without that man in the middle do you know what I mean I'm hoping and I don't know because we don't see we don't see what happens in the trailer I'm hoping he's getting a bit of help every day Jim Radcliffe or Sir David Brailsford whoever it is he's with him every day and it feels like it's coming apart a little bit again I know it's very early to say that and I don't know the actual you know I wouldn't be surprised if you thought the job wasn't as big as it was when he got there and like these players with a back four back three these players were 13th before he arrived with more players available do you know what I mean we had a bigger squad and they were 13th when he got there I just hope it's not too big of a job for him but you need to give people time you can't just get itchy trigger fingers as soon as and I know the results have been pretty pretty bad but you can't you've got to be able to just calm down a little bit the scary thing is it's Ratcliffe seems to be at fault in my opinion given Ten Hag another contract then paid him off 14.5 million you know six months down the line or wherever it was then with Ashworth I had to pay him off 5 million we waited 5 months for him and he was in the job less time he's also sacking dinner ladies at the same time so it's like what is the kind of the man who's driving this football club and his decision making is debatable in the most extreme so how is it going to get better I don't think it will also if you're going to bring football people in to decision making positions that allow them to make decisions, right?

54:07James, do you have something to say on that? Yeah, I was going to say that where United are at now, to be honest, it does remind me a little bit of where Arsenal were a few years ago, where they had a squad full of players who, underperforming, high salaries, they needed to change it over, they brought in a manager mid-season, and it took time. But what Arteta did in his first six months, he was a guy who'd come out of La Masia, worked with Pep, a 4-3-3 coach, he changed because he didn't have the players. He played a back three, wing-backs. because that's what you have to do. I'm not putting up on a pedestal and saying, you know, what a great manager Arteta is.

54:40I'm just saying that you've got to do what it takes to survive, to give you the time to make the changes you need. Because if the squad are the problem, I accept that, but you can't change that all in one summer. It didn't feel like Arteta was on his own, though, was it? He had Edu beside him, I think. Yeah, true. The only thing I'm not sure about Liverpool and Arnest, I just feel like the United manager, he's thrown into it and that's it. He's on his own, he's getting no help, no guidance, especially when he's 40 years of age, do you know what I mean? He needs somebody with him, probably not to babysit him, but he needs help every single day.

55:18Yeah, that's a bit of collaborative effort, yeah. Rory, does Mureski need help? I think he needs a P45, really. I mean, it's, yeah, I mean, it feels like it's over. It feels like this period is over. Like, not necessarily, it's not necessarily his fault. It's not necessarily something that I'm particularly animated about. You know, in the past, there's been managers at Chelsea that I've loved and I've been furious when they got sacked. When they sacked Jose Mourinho the first time round, I was livid, I was down the ground. When they sacked Roberto Di Matteo, I was, like, really upset. Equally, we've employed managers where I've been quite happy to see them.

55:53I've been aggressively anti them. Rafael Benitez, I couldn't bear. Mauricio Sarri was an era I didn't like. I don't feel like that. I'm not impassioned by this. It's almost worse. I'm not particularly angry. It's almost apathy. We are sort of worn out by this ownership. I think that the club are moving massively in the wrong direction and Enzo Morescu is the public face of that. So we have to talk about him. We have to talk about the mistakes that he's making. But I do also concede that even if we did bring in a new manager, I don't necessarily think that things will improve. I think the squad are average at best and I think that the ownership are driving the club into the ground.

56:27Sorry, Scorsi. We all thought he'd be the first manager to go at him at the start of the season. I think he did brilliant. I think he did really well to bring everything together. He separated squads and got the team right, I think. It's just been these last ten games where it just seems to have gone again. Yeah, but so many of the decisions that he's made are part of the reason that we're in this mess. He has personally... You were in a title race, weren't you? I mean, off the top of my head, you think when he came out and said that we weren't in the title race, I thought that was a major error.

56:56I don't think that did us any favours whatsoever. There was a moment where he was asked about Robert Sanchez when he was forever persisting with Robert Sanchez, and he was asked to justify that. And rather than maybe giving a justification for it, he threw everyone else under the bus. They went something like, why are you playing Robert Sanchez? He can seize loads of goals. And they went, he can seize loads of goals. You should see how many chances Nicholas Jackson misses. Who side are you on it?

57:19He's got that wrong. I think that there are so many things. The way that he presents himself isn't in keeping with being a Chelsea manager. He was asked recently about Champions League football. Champions League football is now in jeopardy. He's gone, no, that's not even the ambition. It's the ambition next year. No, you Wally. It's the ambition the second you take the job at Chelsea. Chelsea qualifying for the Champions League is the bare minimum. You can't possibly take the Chelsea job and say we're not really too fussed about being in the Champions League. So I think he has made countless mistakes.

57:48But equally, does bringing in a new manager really improve? Is there an amount of tactical tweaks that could somehow make Malo Gusto a good full-back? Probably not. Why do I am so? Because it can't continue as it is. We are dropping like a stone. We went to Everton to go top of the league. We went to Everton just before Christmas to go top of the league. We've won two games since then. You can't want to manage us. That was literally about six weeks ago. No, but we have standards. You persevere when managers aren't good at it. No, no, no. Don't turn this around on me. Six months ago, you were nearly top of the league.

58:23Now you're saying get rid of the manager. This is a problem with a lot of Chelsea fans and you as well, right? It's a problem with me. Yeah, you're a problem with what's going on in Chelsea. Your understanding of the bare minimum of a football club has been squiffed by... Squiffed? It's been swayed by Bramovich and that whole era, which wasn't, as it turns out, very real. No, but it's not even necessarily that. It's not even necessarily the Abramovich era. If you look at the 10 years prior to Abramovich taking over... You're not that club anymore. We still won more than... You're not that club anymore, and you've got to stop thinking and expecting that you are.

58:57But in the 10 years prior to Abramovich, we still won European silverware, domestic trophies, beat Real Madrid in Monaco. Like, we've still... But what you're going through now is completely normal for every football club, but your level of expectation means that you want to manage a sack six weeks after... No, but they're the standards of the clubs. They're the standards of the clubs. What Adam McCullough's going through. You're not saying it's acceptable for Manchester United. It's not acceptable for Chelsea. And what Chelsea have done is appoint a championship manager and we've turned into a championship club in terms of our mentality.

59:21But you've got a different ownership and a completely different model to the one you've been... What's it got to do with you? I'm talking to them.

59:30Rory, who's the biggest frustration with Chelsea supporters now? Is it the man in the dugout or is it the people above him? It's the ownership. I do feel like it's become untenable with Enzo Maresca, but like I say, the problem is the ownership. The strategy that they're employing is it's never about a football team. It's a really weird thing to say, but I genuinely believe it's true. I think that what they're trying to build isn't a good football team. It's a football club. Almost the motivation for most football clubs, you would assume, is the first team. Let's make a team that are capable of winning the league.

1:00:05Whereas when you look at what's going on at the club, everybody has known that Chelsea have been desperate for a goalkeeper, desperate for a centre-forward. We could really do with some midfield cover. and then we're linked with Alejandro Garnache. Like, that's not what we need. We have a million inside forwards, a million of them who aren't good enough. Like, when you've got Jadon Santro already, you really do not need anyone else to come in in that situation. You know, we're already lumbered. And that's the kind of strategy that we're pursuing. We're not trying to build an excellent football team.

1:00:31We're trying to buy only young players. Like, what's wrong with going out? Like, when I was a kid, we went and signed Mark Hughes. It's an amazing signing. He was in his 30s. When I was, like, in my 20s, we signed Michael Ballack. A 30-year-old who came in for the here and now. We don't have anyone like that. We're constantly signing these kids. There's no experience, which is why, if you look at the results, and Maresca is culpable for this, but it's almost not his fault because we basically go 1-0 up and lose. Like, genuinely, if you look across our results, we basically go 1-0 up and get beat.

1:01:01That's experience, isn't it? That's game management, and that comes from the manager. But it also comes from having Mark Hughes around to go look like, you know, everybody. They're all 20. Well, you said you'd change the manager then. Who would you want to change the manager then? This is it. This is it. There isn't... I'd always have Frank there. But there isn't... What we should be doing is bringing in somebody who's proven. So, for example, when the club had standards, Enzo Maresco would have been sacked by now. In fact, when the club had standards, Enzo Maresco would have never got the job.

1:01:35What we would have done is go and appoint a best-in-class. Somebody like... Whatever we say about Ruben Amorim, and I think that he's getting it massively wrong there. It was a noble and progressive appointment. He was the European super coach. They brought in, whether it works or not isn't really the point, they brought in somebody that was a progressive, intelligent appointment. That's what we should be doing. Come on, Rory, name somebody. No, I don't... You can't want a manager starting to have a plan. It's Frank Lampard. Yeah. It is, but I think the problem is that you've lost, you've fallen out of love with your football club.

1:02:07The one that you grew up watching, you don't see it anymore. and Frank Lampard and a bunch of graduates from your academy would give you that. We should have somebody with a proven track record. So, for example, it's probably not correct, but there'd be nothing wrong with an appointment with the experience of somebody like Carlo Ancelotti. Somebody to come in proven. Like, we can't... Would you have sat Pochettino? Pochettino? Jeez, no. No, no, no. But Pochettino should have never been sacked. That's another error that this ownership have made. But it's a mess and it's only moving in one direction.

1:02:38We're not going to make Europe... So you want Ancelotti? Pardon? You want Ancelotti? I want somebody proven with a track record, with pedigree. Somebody who represents... Somebody who represents that. But honestly, you know when there's a conversation about who's going to make the top four, will it become a top five? We're not that. Like, you know, genuinely, just discount Chelsea. I mean, considering the money that you've spent, that should be the absolute minimum. That should be the minimum of what you've spent. We as fans talk about our clubs, obviously, with the dream of winning the league or building teams to win the league.

1:03:13Did you see what their owners were saying in, I think it was some sort of general meeting or something? They were comparing Chelsea to Brighton and the model at Brighton and how they need to copy that. And then you look at United and the fact that we've paid a billion in interest on the Glazers' debts and stuff like that. For all the things that us fans want to do, most of our clubs, their hands are tied because of what the owners are doing. Bro, can I ask you a question there? You just said you're not a top five club, you don't think? No. Well, do you remember six weeks ago when you looked like you were going to win the league?

1:03:44Yeah. And the manager said, no, we can't win the league? Yeah. You were furious, weren't you? Yeah, absolutely. So you don't think you can be a top five club? But I believe that him saying that we couldn't win the league has led to the situation that we can't win the league. It's led to him not being a top five club. Saying that Chelsea weren't in the title race, I think is conducive to Chelsea not being in the title race. When the manager says, we can't win the league, suddenly a point at Everton's a good point. A Sean Dyche Everton team is a good point. Do you think you were in the title race at that point?

1:04:10Did I? I'm a fan. I will always be optimistic. But the point is the manager. The manager of Chelsea should be saying, of course we're in the title race. Of course we can win the league. We were second in the league. We were about to go top of the league if we'd beaten Everton. As players, what do you want to hear from your manager at that point? I didn't like that. I don't think a manager can say, we're going to win the league. but I think if it was do you remember when Leicester won the league and throughout that season around the year he kept getting asked and he was just saying funny things because you don't understand it because you think the wheels could fall off at any time this is a team and players we're not used to Chelsea are serial winners you know they've won two European Cups you know it's not like they were won trophies 20 years ago they've brought managers in lots of different managers who won the league so I thought it was a say for instance it was using your team because you've asked say it was Potts with Tottenham.

1:05:01And even though Tottenham are a big club, you don't normally win a trophy. So if they were in a position, you'd be like, oh, we'll see, we can, can't. You know, I could understand them maybe playing it down a little bit. Maybe. I wouldn't, but I could understand it. I think Chelsea's a completely different football club. That is like a club whose whole DNA is about winning. It's not even about, like, playing great football. It's about, it's just, serial winners, if you come second, you're sacked. We win. And we criticise them from other clubs. Obviously, disgrace, how they treat managers. But everybody knew what Chelsea was about.

1:05:32It was about winning. I mean, Ancelotti won the league in the double. He got sacked the next season for not winning the league now. In the tunnel of Goodison Park? Yeah. Disrespectfully? The way they probably treated managers was terrible, but everybody knew what that club was about. So you can't say if you're second in the league as a Chelsea manager. That definition that you've just given a Chelsea, that definition that you've given there is spot on. But I almost think that you and everybody needs to almost redefine who we are and what we're about. We're not that anymore. This new ownership have come in.

1:05:58Three years ago, virtually to the day, We were World Club champions. We were officially the best team in the world. We were officially crowned World Club champions in Abu Dhabi. That's three years ago. They've come in and look what's happened. We're going to go into our third year not in the Champions League. We're playing in the Conference League, which I don't mean to be sneery. I never want to be sneery about silverware, but I mean, come on. That's not a trophy, is it? West Ham fans will tell you about Prague and that, and maybe to them it is. But come on. That just isn't a trophy. We've got to get to fly.

1:06:29We've got to get to Flav.

1:06:38Flav, talk to me about Tottenham. Yeah. We're Anjin now, aren't we? We're all back, all right? I certainly am. And I think, look, it just shows you that when you've got a squad and you've got players back, that you can kind of play a system and the way he wants to play. And it sort of works. You know, we're not, let's not get it sort of twisted. We're not playing anywhere near as well as we've seen them play under Ange. And we're still playing three 18-year-old players in the first 11. So that's going to have an impact. No Spurs fans going, yes, we're back. And there's also going to be a hangover of this three or four months of injuries with these players that have played so many minutes.

1:07:18But you saw from him in Son at the weekend what a difference having a little break can have. And he had Ben Godfrey on toast. And Ipswich have been given a lot of plaudits this year. but defensively they're horrendous so going down probably one a game and you start laying in two switch

1:07:37I mean do you feel what you've gone through this season it's been really tough and you look like you've come out the other side you've got your injuries back now it's not going to be looked back as an amazing season in terms of the Premier League listen something could happen in the Europa League and I actually hope it does but do you think what you've had this season do you think that could make Tottenham a lot stronger next season yeah we've had such a sort of horrible and kind of somewhat depressing season and difficult to watch at times, that actually a decent run towards the end of the year, even though we can't probably finish much higher than sort of eighth, the kind of momentum and the confidence comes back with stringing a few results together makes you feel completely better.

1:08:13And if you can get Romero and Van der Ven back for this Europa League run, which starts in a couple of weeks, that we're a different team with our best two defenders available. So can we win the Europa League? When you say you're a different team, have you got a different name now I think yeah I saw that that's amazing isn't it trying to disassociate trying to disassociate themselves from the local area but what's a football team supposed to do it's a representation of the area you're proud you're proud like take pride in the area it's a disgrace you know when players try to sign for a club and they don't they don't live there like for example when Mourinho like it's out of order when you buy into a club you buy into the area don't you Tottenham have told us please do not call us Tottenham is it a bad area it's grim Yeah, it's a dump.

1:08:59The area of Tottenham, where we come from, right? When an enemy comes to play, it's important that the local area is represented. That's what football's all about. And the fact that the club are going out their way to ensure that whenever you're on Sky Sports that you use the word Hotspur is further testament to why Daniel Levy perhaps isn't the best man to run our football club. They desperately want, don't want Tottenham... Don't want us to call this stadium what our lane, they want to call it Tottenham Hotspur Stadium. so when some massive investor comes from the Middle East, they can rebrand the stadium and pump loads of money into the football club.

1:09:31For me, it's still the club that comes from the area of Tottenham and it brings up a certain amount of bile in the throat when you're forced to say Tottenham Hotspur, even though I'm very proud of the word Hotspur as well. Yeah, that's further testament to Daniel Levy's running the football club and how important the bottom line is. You can understand why they don't necessarily want to celebrate the local area. Yeah. Tottenham has a rich, cultural, diverse, Eckers theme that we should break Sarah I want to come to you is this your debut on the fan debate it is yeah I've been enjoying it so far yeah well lovely to bring you in it's a little bit of doom and gloom and I'm like we're mid-table and I'm having the best time ever and you're also one of those clubs who I think everybody just loves fun don't they is fun one of those clubs that we all like yeah fair enough great away go on tell us about your season I mean, we're just loving life down at the Cottage at the moment.

1:10:27We're having an absolutely smashing season. I think beating Chelsea on Boxing Day, first time in 45 years at the Bridge, just, I mean, it was amazing, absolutely amazing. And, you know, we've had great games against Forest and against Newcastle. Yeah, for us, the difference this season is taking on the big boys and winning and drawing. That's a big deal for us. We've always been good at sort of beating those around us and possibly slightly below us. But this season, we're taking the bigger teams on and, yeah, we're doing really good against them. You set up Fulham Lillies. Can you tell us about that?

1:11:05Yeah, so the Fulham Lillies is a women's supporters group. We found that after lockdown, a lot of people sort of felt a bit disjointed coming back to football and there were a lot of women and young girls who weren't necessarily returning to football. So we've set up the Lilies to encourage more women and girls to get involved. One of our ex-players kindly donated some money to us. So we purchased two season tickets. So every game we do a ballot for our members so that two women can attend a home game at the cottage for free. And we also, when we played Wigan in the FA Cup a couple of weeks ago, we did an away day.

1:11:46And we had 16 women and their daughters and sons all travelling up on the coaches. and for some of them it was the first time they'd ever been able to go away again because they just didn't feel confident. So, yeah, it's really, really good what we're doing. Brilliant, well done. And how do you think this season will finish? Where can you see yourself realistically finishing? Or what's the hope? I mean, obviously the hope's got to be Europe. We're there or thereabouts. And as we've spoken, you know, it is so close from 10 upwards. And the possibility of there being eighth, maybe even a ninth spot, depending how results go so yeah I'd really like to see us do a European Cup run we've had that one 11 years ago now a little bit more than that when we got to the final in Hamburg so yeah to see that again would be just amazing Well good luck and then we've got Greg and Lee Nottingham Forest Newcastle it was Newcastle Nottingham Forest at the weekend We love playing Forest because we win all the time don't we Oh Just call them Tooney Puelish, and he might...

1:12:52Our season, at the moment, we're coming up to a crucial time of the season because we could be on so much of a high in the next few weeks or so much on a low because we're fighting on three fronts at the moment as a Newcastle fan in late February. That was absolutely fantastic for us. So we could be winners of the League Cup if we dream in the semi-final of the FA Cup and fighting for the Champions League. And if you offered me that in August, I'm biting your hand off. But on the flip side, side, if we get beat in the final, we could go out to the FA Cup and we might fall off the pace a little bit of the Champions League, that's my little worry.

1:13:28Have you not already, you haven't fell off the pace, but I mean, since you got to the Cup Finals, there's been this feeling that before yesterday, I think you'd lost three out of your last four in the Premier League. Is the focus, I imagine everybody in Newcastle is thinking about tickets, Wembley, your first trophy for a long time. Is that a problem for you? I think there is one eye, and I think Eddie's got to look at that and keep the players focus on next game, next game, next game. I think when we beat Arsenal 2-0 and 2-0 over both legs, the celebrations were a lot more muted. You could see that from the players and the fans.

1:14:01Because the first time we got there, it was like, oh my God, we're in a final, this is happening and all this sort of stuff. And now it's like, OK, we've got another final. This could be the start of things in the next five to ten years. We might start reaching semifinals and finals. The expectation will go up. So I think there is one eye, but we've got a crucial few weeks, as I say, coming up. I mean, obviously, if I ask you, you think you can win the final, of course, you're a supporter. But I mean, how would you think you could beat Liverpool? I mean, at the moment, they are the top team, you know, they're taking on all comers.

1:14:33That's a tough one because look at Liverpool, I mean, they're going to win the league. And look, we're all underdogs for the final, but it'd be interesting to see what Eddie Howe does. Did he switch it back to five, which he did against Arsenal in the League Cup? or does he go for it and play his own games? I think we've got the best left side as a pair in Lewis Hall and Anthony Gordon on the left. We've got the best strike in the league and we've got a couple of fantastic midfielders in the likes of Bruno and Tonali. So on the day, we do have some match winners, but you're up against Liverpool.

1:15:03It's a tough one, but as a fan, we'll go there and hope and think that we can finally get that monkey off our back because we haven't won anything since the first cup in 69. You said on your day, The thing that I notice about Newcastle, and when you've just gone through the players, I think there's a lot of outstanding players in there. But it feels like every few weeks, you just have a result in performance that just, it almost feels like the shock result of the Premier League. Why does that keep happening? I can't quite put my finger on it. After the Brentford defeat, where we got beat 4-2 away, and that was what, late November, early December, we needed to see a reaction from it.

1:15:35I think Eddie had a meeting with every single player, and had some home truths. And then since then, we just went on nine in a row, League and Cup Where that's put We're back in contention With the Champions League And then You're alright Then we might play Fulham at home Who Absolutely I played with And dominated with Like We'll scratch my head Thinking We'll wait a minute We'll just be lost How can we do that And then Even against Forest First half We were absolutely fantastic But Second half It was absolutely dreadful And I think we were lucky That we scored four goals In a space of what Eleven minutes Which is Really good Unheard of I think the last time we ever achieved that and sorry Flav it's where we went 5-0 up against Spurs in 20 minutes so you get dunked on by everyone you do not coming back it's getting to the point where we might not come back right in the moment it's fantastic because we're on all three fronts and the Champions League places I've said a couple of times earlier this season on the overlap that we'll finish fifth and we'll get through in the back door of the Champions League and I'm still confident that because the rest of the Premier League the win two and lose one anywhere from third to tenth.

1:16:42There's no consistency. There's no one... If one team goes unbeaten, because there's, what, 12, 13 games left, if one team goes unbeaten and has a run, they'll qualify for the Champions League. Greg, do you think that could be you? I mean, would not getting a Champions League place now, considering it goes down to fifth position, we all think, would it almost feel like a disappointment now? No. It will. It will. You know it will. You listen to Fulham and Newcastle ourselves compared to Chelsea, Tottenham, And even Man City, we appreciate where we've come from. So this is just an unbelievable season for me.

1:17:15We've lost three away games on a bounce now. And yeah, that's bad form. But I absolutely love this football club. I love what we're doing this season. We can absolutely beat Arsenal on Wednesday and maybe even City the week after. Our home form is going to be key. We saw in the second half Sunday how we can change things. It was awful first half. It was terrible. ball but second half we made the changes we can adapt and for a team that doesn't have the ball like we don't are off the ball yesterday wasn't good enough where it has been and we showed that in the second half so I think we need six wins and I think we can get six wins Champions League would be you know dreamland something that I never thought would happen with my football club but It feels like mid week against Arsenal it just feels like one of those big nights for nothing going to fall you know an evening game you're playing against a team with a few points ahead of you.

1:18:07You know, you've lost the game before. Because it felt to me like the Liverpool game was like that. I was watching on TV. The atmosphere felt like, you know, really wild. You obviously get a good start with a goal. Do you think it could be one of those nights that you remember at the end of the season? You know, under the lights, city ground, there's no better place and we're all talking about it. We're all ready for it. We appreciate just how big it can be. And that's usually when we perform. So, yeah, so excited. I'll be fascinated to see what you're managing. If you do get to the Champions League, what your owner does with that money.

1:18:38I think he's one of the most ambitious. He will absolutely. I know, he will. It would be incredible. I was thinking the same thing, because when Leicester got to the Champions League, they never really tried to make it a regular... They never had the ambition to make it a regular thing, and I'd be interested to see how they react. It could really set you up. We've seen what he did with Olympiacos, and for me now, his big objective is Nottingham Forest, Premier League, Champions League, whatever. so yeah it will be a huge positive that money will go so far and it's our recruitment as well you know it's getting the likes of the Arsenal recruitment team on our side now so yeah Champions League football would be everything but Europa League wouldn't be that bad it wouldn't I think it's also good for the Premier League that the likes of we've had Newcastle in the Champions League we've had Aston Villa you could have Forest there you could have Newcastle again you could have yeah the teams underneath there's a plethora of clubs and I actually think it's healthy for the Premier League.

1:19:35It goes back as well to what Rory was saying about when they signed Mark Hughes and you can't sign 30-odd-year-old players now because you don't get anything back from them when they're done and I think that's why we're doing so well because we're buying these players now with big money going and we'll build and we can trust the ownership to get it right. Yeah, you can't go and sign a 30-year-old now because of PSO and we'll not get into that, do you? No, no. Well, that's another episode of the Fan Debate brought to you by Skybet and we'll see you next time.

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