Man Utd’s Worst Signing, Diving Debate & Transfer Magic Gone | The Overlap Fan Debate

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2:30I think we're all cheats. We are. We're all cheats. Stop saying we. You're just describing Jamie Carragher. Yeah. Two of the big six finish 15th and 16th. What are we talking about? Adam. What are we doing? There is no way in the world that an FA Cup game or a Premier League game should be played anywhere else but in this country. It's a bit like when people go to watch Batman movies. They go, a Batman movie wouldn't be good if Batman wasn't in it. He's in it. Yeah, but there's a reason. Liverpool with Isak will win the treble. He's thrown out hot take after hot take days. He looks like he plays with jeans on.

3:09Now look at that. Now look at that.

3:17Welcome back to the Fan Debate brought to you by Skybet. And this week we're going to go with a topic of hot takes for the new season. So, as I had to explain to Gary Neville what a hot take was a couple of weeks ago, if you remember. Something that you think that could happen this season that's maybe a little bit outlandish, that maybe is not the current train of thought of most supporters. So, we're going to crack on with that. And where would you always start with someone with a hot take? If there was anyone in here with a hot take, where would you start?

3:52Rory, come on. I always feel you've got a hot take every week that we come and you've normally had a good think about what you're going to say. Yeah, to a degree. So something that I said fairly recently got a lot of traction, a lot of heat, and I got it in the neck. You do that though, don't you? Not ideal, but it's a hazard at a job. But I think the light that you could shed on this is very interesting. What I said on air was something along the lines of, I like it when my players cheat. I want Chelsea players to go down in the box. If Didier Drogba's in a situation where he can perhaps initiate contact and fall, great.

4:30If you can dive to win a penalty, great. If you can handball it off the line and not get caught, great. And a lot of people gave me some stick. I've got no issue with diving. I like it all, right? Just make sure that you win the game. From a fan perspective, people like to take the moral high ground. But I think a lot of people, if they're being totally truthful, will agree with me. What do you think? Like when you were playing, for example, Jamie. When you're playing, Fernando Torres is in the box. He goes down light. Are you happy or something? I'm with you in that I think we're all cheats. You know, we are.

5:02On the football pitch, we're asking for decisions that we know are wrong. We're trying to continually influence a referee as a player when I know it's... Stop saying we. You're just describing Jamie Carragher. Yeah, yeah. I was... It's funny because I think I would like to push... I think cheating is... I'm not against people going down. I don't like diving. But I'm not against... If a keeper comes out of someone's feet or the defender makes a stupid tackle, I'd be like to my striker, what are you doing? Use your brain. It's his fault. Don't sort of get out of the way of him. let him hit you you know you see a keeper come out at striker's feet and always the striker's thinking if I get there before him I'm just going to run into the keeper it's a penalty now we all know he's played for for me that's fine but I wouldn't like if I didn't put a tackle in and someone just fell on the floor I'd be like fuck off you know that type of thing but I do listen it's top level football it's top level sport and I would always encourage my attacking player if I'm at the back if someone makes a silly tackle Do not be trying to play this game of Mr Honesty or nothing like that.

6:23What about famous cheating moments? So I think they're glorious. Like, do you remember when Michael Owen initiated the contact with Pochettino in Japan and went down? It was like brilliant, great. So what was the one at Arsenal? Was it Robbie Fowler? Robbie Fowler didn't go down. David Seaman. Robbie Fowler went down, but then he said it wasn't a penalty. I think Jamie's right about if there's contact. Our manager said it all the time. If someone touched you, you can go down. and sometimes when it didn't happen and you stayed up on your feet he's well that's what Ronnie Moran obviously the famous Liverpool coach I believe he went I wasn't in the Liverpool team at the time but I believe he went mad at Robbie Fowler after the game really yeah I think Liverpool won the game anyway but I think it was a bit don't ever do that again you know a case of that and I get that you know you don't if a referee's give you a penalty you don't tell a referee it's not a penalty well about a fever review or maybe you've had an experience say you were on the pitch playing for Argentina when Maradona handballs it in?

7:17Are you happy with that or are you not? No. No, really? You can't be happy with that, can you? No, I won't be happy with that. What about when... I'd be more than happy with Schultz. Eh? What was he doing? Early days of Ronaldo when he'd occasionally die of Ronaldo. Were you guys... Yeah, we weren't happy with that. I think as a collective of our team, we didn't like it. And he got told about that. It soon stopped. Do you think you're not happy with it as a teammate because if he gets a reputation for that, then he might be less likely to get penalties given against him. If you know he's got a reputation for being a diver.

7:48Absolutely. That's what will happen. We had it for a whole season at Spurs with Bale where we didn't get a single penalty because he had that reputation of diving. There was loads where he was getting hacked down, pulled down and nothing that does affect you. Yeah, there was other people but you have to tell him I think as teammates you just tell him, don't you? It can go the other way though, can't it? Remember Ashley Young? Salah gets kicked up in the air. Ashley Young was a nightmare. She used to dive all the time. In training as well I'll try it every day with diving though now you're not going to get away like actually diving in the same way that Ronaldo you can't get away with it now you know as a perfect example now that you're talking Harry Kane I loved it I thought when I used to watch Harry Kane playing I used to think he's just street wise I think that's probably the best way to describe it I don't like cheating but I like being street wise on the pitch I don't like as I said just falling over and, you know, someone blatantly cheating.

8:46But I do like players, as I said, and Harry Kane, there was no one better than Harry Kane. Yeah, I think in top-level football where the margins are so, so fine, you've got to find a way to win. As long as you're not, you know, you could argue that that is cheating by buying fouls and whatever. But Kane was just clever. He'd back into defenders, he'd initiate contact, he'd get free kicks. He was the master of what you were saying before about when a keeper comes out, he's making sure he gets that first touch, knocking it around him and letting him hit him. He did that, he did it at Anfield, I'm pretty sure.

9:13for his 100th yeah it's just like you know I think that's okay Adam I'm going to come for you with the next one I think last season you gave us a couple you said Ten Hag would still be here next season just got sacked about

9:32what are you going with this time? I think we beat City next week I'll enjoy it I'm not going up I've got too far ahead. I don't see you on Twitter on the quote tweet saying I think we beat them. See you in a bit, mate. I'll beat them. But I've also got one. I don't know if it's a hot take about this season, but Jadon Sancho is the worst signing Manchester United have ever made and there's big competition for it. Obviously, we spent 80 million and Anthony is useless anyway, but for me, Jadon Sancho is just the biggest waste of space I've ever seen in a Manchester United shirt, especially when you consider his ability that he has.

10:07For him to just be so... Talking about freedom when he left Chelsea and then you look at him now, barely getting off his heart to leave the club. I just think he's a disgrace and I can't wait to see the back of him. You know, it's funny with Sancho because he got the reputation in Borussia Dortmund. I always go back to me and Gary were on a show and they asked us to pick an England squad or something. And listen, we hadn't seen Sancho play too much. He was in Dortmund doing really well in the Champions League. And we didn't put him in our squad. And I remember on social media, how can you not put everyone just in on Sancho?

10:40And when you're saying the worst signer because of his ability, I'm not sure there's much ability there. I think he's OK. I don't understand what his thing is. So I've been critical of Marcus Rashford. But if I picture Marcus Rashford playing well, I can picture his pace. I can picture a shot. I can picture him taking a free kick and hitting the ball really hard. I don't know what Sancho's thing is what's every player I think has got something you might not like certain things I can't think in my head what Sancho does I think it's his ability to dribble in tight spaces I've never seen it in my life I think the Premier League isn't I think the Premier League he's not made for the Premier League he's too slow for the Premier League and you look at the Premier League now how quick people are and one of the red flags should have been whenever you see a team counter-attacking in Germany They've got the whole half of the pitch free and it's just them running down the ground.

11:36And it's like, hold on, we should have clocked here that he's running at nobody at defences at times. But yeah, it's just been a massive disappointment. We've had loads of disappointments. Look, I don't think Harry Maguire's ever really lived up to the price tag, but you look at him and he's a consummate professional who really wants to be at Manchester United and will fight for his spot, never chucks his toys out of the pram. And you had this guy talking about, oh yeah, I'm finally free from Man United and Chelsea give us five million just to not have to sign him. and he's still stinking the gaff out now and I just can't stand him and I just can't wait to leave.

12:07Villa are making a massive mistake by taking him. Villa seems a really weird fit to him. Emery's kind of track record of being able to... Emery, to be fair, has got a great track record of bringing players back almost from, not the edge, but improving them, players that have failed elsewhere. But he also wants that 100 % commitment and hard work, which you don't know the ins and outs of Sancho. Emery might be good for Sancho. I think he would, but I think it's weird to take that. Look, I think he's a weird side. You talked before about the size of pitch for him as well. Villa Park's massive. I know, that's what I think.

12:37Like old draft, big pitch. If you've got a lack of pace, it really stands out. If you've got a pace or lack of legs, it concerns you. Look, he's got ability, hasn't he? Like Jamie said, I don't... What's his strength? Does he cut inside and smash it in the top corner? Can he beat him? I don't know. Does he link? Possibly links with a centre forward. All right, little nice passes down the side of people. but no, I'm just not... There's times as well where he beats his man and then just brings it back in front. That's a pace thing though. Can't get away from him. He has probably got the skills to go past someone but they catch him.

13:10I mean, he can't go on again that further... Bad sign as well, isn't it? That the Chelsea ownership have decided to pay money to not sign him. Didn't he want the same wages as Parma? He wouldn't take a hit at all on his wages, yeah. It was the same at Roma, wasn't it, as well? He would refuse to go to Roma. Yeah, because of the wages. Because of the wages. It's outrageous. Go play. Maz, last time you were on, your hot take was the officiating in the Premier League is the worst it's ever been. And you disagreed. And now look at us. Now look at us. Now look at us. Now look at us. Absolutely. Very aggressive there.

13:44No, there you go. No, no one agreed with me at that point. I think I did. Did you? I might have. And it's just got worse anyway. It has got worse, I agree. It has got worse. Because they're scared. Well, no, they get things wrong and then VAR doesn't help them either. People at Stockton Park get it wrong. It's like, who's actually going to be right? Mate, you want to come to a League Two game. Better, is it? Is it better? Maz, have you got a different one this season? I do, yes. I don't know. It's a bit, I don't know. I'll go with it anyway and see if it gets cut.

14:16It's definitely staying in. So, in the nose slash some journalists, I think, ruin the magic of the transfer window. Yes. That's an interesting one. Yeah, so I What it is I don't want to name names Name names I don't want to be Like a personal attack But I think some First of all Really do have a big influence On the transfer market More than they know And they tweet You know, tweet I think they know Yeah Do they? Yeah My big thing Name names, go on David Arsdale Fabrizio Romano He's the worst He's making millions of people Yeah So he Arne Slott mentioned him In an interview Really? Like he comes out With some of the stuff He comes out with Is so clearly By an agent An agent He's so...

14:56Yeah, he's not a journalist. He's not... The journalistic pedigree, whatever you want to call it, it's just gone out the window. Look at Ornstein. Fantastic. Brilliant. He only tweets or says statements when... You did all right. I always say you weren't going to mention anybody's name. You told me to do it, so I'm doing it now. They're going to bleep every name now. But no, I just feel like the integrity is gone with these so-called journalists because they do it for clicks. They do it for money. I genuinely believe that. I think a lot... You even see with Brighton players, they tweet stuff. It's just either not true or come from an agent and it just ruins it and also his fans remember when Odden Wingy was ready to go and sign you miss all that kind of stuff and the Sky Sports with people in the background waving certain objects you miss that bring it back bring it back we do what we do do you know what I mean we're missing the magic of what we used to have that's the curse of social media though I get it being updated is great we all sit here on our phones waiting for an update for our clubs, and it's great.

15:55I do get that element of it. But at the same time, it's like, sometimes Romano will tweet, Garnatros having gone to the toilet. I'm like, I don't care, mate. You look at the Garnatros stuff, and it was very clearly agent-driven. He started posting blue love hearts on that when Chelsea signed him. It's like, have some self-respect. It doesn't change. And it's like, I want to see, just give me the information that I want, whether they've signed or they're going for a medical, the key stuff. I don't want to know about what they're going to do. Bring back teletext. so you can wait for the page I think I think when on your phone if you see David Ornstein pop up you're thinking okay so this is done it's finished and I rate that and I like that but at the same time there's others that bring that down you know there's other sources as well and it's just frustrating as a fan you want the information to be true and you want to get it in a good way so all the coffee cats it spawned as well it's like yeah mate you haven't got a clue was it there we land now we got that kid he's not going for room No, no, no.

16:54But what do you guys think of it? What, did people break in store? Listen, that's the game that everybody's in, aren't they? Everyone wants to be seen as the guy in the know or who's first to break a story. But, listen, those two have... Did you have any journalists that you were close with that you would maybe brief to try and help your contract negotiations or...? Never. Transfer-wise, I was thinking, no. I needed the club to come in for me first. You were messaging them There's something you've just said there And I wasn't going to say one But I was thinking about this over the summer The thing that I don't like now because of social media You know when you sign a player And no one really knows too much about it And you've seen a few highlights And then there's people on Twitter giving you threads Of what they're like And they're telling you about his XG And how many goals he's missed Listen I love stats because of the show we do Monday Night Football and I'm a bit like, just let me have this hope and this life.

17:51Let me imagine what he's going to be like. It's like someone's telling you what he's like before he's even put the kit on. He hasn't even played yet. And someone's telling you about how high his ceiling is and you're like, oh, for fuck's sake, shut up. Just let him play. Taking away the magic. That's what I mean, yeah. I'm old, so I can remember the 1986 World Cup. And you're watching that and there's players you don't know. You're literally watching it and for the first time you see a player and you're like, he's boss, isn't he? Look at him. and now it's like you say everything's there's always an expert on everyone and it's taken some of the magic away people watching 10 games at a time and reacting to it it's like how the fuck are you watching 10 games right now you never go to bed yeah like what are you doing I think you made a point I think last time we were on it's like everyone's got an opinion on a new site how do people have the time to watch all these games I don't get it but a lot of that's tribalism as well isn't it they want to start the conversation because the more clicks they get the more money they get so they just say stuff it's happening with Verts at the moment people are so desperate because he was the British.

18:46They hate him though, don't they? People are every single... Double O's. Yeah, but that sort of stuff does happen. It's like, anyone who watched the game would have known that second half he had a lot more impact, but because he didn't get a goal or an assist, people are jumping on it straight away. And because he was poor against Newcastle, nobody's looking into the nuances of why that was. But then it becomes point scoring because United fans will be like, well, when Pogba had a bad game, you all ripped into him, so we're going to go for him now. And it happened with Chelsea as well with like Kaisado, where Kaisado had that bad game against West Ham.

19:12Everybody jumped on it because he was so much money. I mean that's football fans yeah that's what comes back we like football fans growing up on social media I can tell you whatever I want tribalism's also dying though because I see some United fans on Twitter and I don't know a Liverpool player will score and they'll be oh fucking amazing and that it's like there you are what are we doing here man

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21:55Get peace of mind today at greenlight.com slash protect. That's greenlight.com slash protect. Gareth, what's your hot tea? So you won't be surprised. I'm going off to the left and talking about supporters again. And my one really is that I feel as though a lot of, I get that a lot of supporters just want to go the match, have a pint, watch the team, go home, forget about it. but I think as someone who is involved with fan activism if you like I feel a little bit like there's a lot of footy fans who are asleep at the wheel at the moment and I think if fans don't come together and oppose this within five years we're going to have meaningful English football played outside of England It's happening in Spain It's happening in Spain It's happening in Italy you've got a scenario where a La Liga game could be played in America by the end of this year.

22:49You've got a scenario where an Italian game could be played in Australia early next year. You've already seen Super Cup games played outside the countries as well. And look, it's fine for Richard Masters to say there's no plans on the table right now for the Premier League to do that. But there are 11 American-owned clubs now in the Premier League. Once it gets to 14, there's nothing Richard Masters can do about it anymore. And I'm just a little bit worried that, you know, in the regulator, there's nothing really in there. that they can do now either. And it just feels like there's a direction of travel.

23:22And the way to stop the direction of travel, in my opinion, is for fans to come together and say, we don't want this. We want to protect our football. We want to protect our communities around the football. And there is no way in the world that an FA Cup game or a Premier League game should be played anywhere else but in this country. I totally agree. But I think one of the things why it may be happening in the other countries is because the Premier League is so far ahead of these and they feel like they've got to do something to try and claw something back in terms of obviously money and bringing TV rights and stuff.

23:58I don't think supporters would allow that to happen. I think that would spark what we've seen around the Super League. I think it really would. The thought that your team, where it's from, is playing a game abroad. Now, where I do think they might try and do it is the community shield. Because I think what happens is we take the Premier League teams around the world, almost like, OK, keep the American fans happy, let's keep them on side. But we all know what's friendly. Half the teams are changing. The clubs aren't really that broadened. And I think now, obviously, the supporters are getting on to that, aren't they, around the world?

24:32They're getting asked to pay huge fees of ticket prices to go and watch United City in New York. I mean, United City, United Bournemouth. Sorry, Bournemouth. Whoever it may be. You know what I mean? You've got the Premier League series. And I think maybe those supporters are maybe turning off eventually because it's not the real thing and that's what they want. And then it's how they bridge that. And I just don't... No, I don't think supporters. Do you have that score? Yeah, I totally agree. I think the foreign clubs that are doing it, the foreign leagues that are doing it, are chasing something.

25:05They're chasing what we have. We've got nothing to chase. We've got everything. We chase money. Yeah, perfect. We chase the money. There's money at stake. There's a huge amount of money and eyeballs at stake. And it's all very well saying that the supporters won't take it. I think you're right. I think the supporters won't take it. But we'll be powerless. We will be powerless. It's all very well going Chelsea fans won't have it. Todd Bowley couldn't care less what I say. Of course he couldn't. Also the fans that oppose those things are being pushed out. To be fair, you know, we're all, especially we're ex-players, we're used as supporters.

25:35The Super League, I think, I thought that put a real dent. I'm really scared and scarred. I think that's put them on the back foot for maybe a good five to ten years. But this will come. This will come again. And I think supporters have got to do exactly the same as they did. Demonstrate outside stadiums. Thousands of people. You're not accepting that, you know, a club. And it's not about local fans, because we all know the clubs have got fans from all over the place. But even just for, like, fairness about, like, how could one game be played abroad? How does that work when you're home and away?

26:07You're going for the league. You win the league by a point or you lose it. or you go down by a point and one of your home games is a Brossie. I think you can tell... It's just having to mess it. 39th game, wasn't it? Yeah, that got defeated. In 2008, that got defeated. But I think you can tell that behind the scenes, they're talking about it. Because the idea that people who own football clubs in this country don't all talk to each other is frankly bollocks. They do talk to each other. They talk to each other all the time. Someone will introduce an idea. Can we get away with that? Oh, they've got away with that.

26:37We'll do that now. And we've seen that over and over again. and I think when you've got Tom Verner coming out the other year, the Liverpool chairman saying, I want to see games in New York, in Riyadh, in Rio and whatever else he said. You're like, well, why are you floating that publicly? There's a reason for that. And it's to introduce it into the mindset. And various chairmen, various people with power in football have mentioned it too many times now. And it's a concern. And like I say, for me, and as you're saying, Jamie, as well, get together, organise, get involved with your local supporters, group, get involved with the Football Supporters Association.

27:12There's a European version of that as well. And there's power in that. This is happening in La Liga and the Spanish fans aren't happy, they don't want it. And like I say, it's being pushed through anyway. And the push is at the door. FIFA now has got a group which is basically helping to facilitate this tour, not fighting against it anymore. So the final place where the buck stops is us saying we don't want it on mass every day you know write to your MP do something about it like i say we all just want to have a pint and watch the footy but kind of think we've passed that and we've got to sort of almost save our game here from something that we don't want yeah that's why you've got tremendous respect for the bundesliga as well the 50 plus one that's why and i think it's actually a really good thing like with the overlap and mark goldbridge but the bundesliga are kind of trying to branch out and get the game more visible because they know they had to catch up but they don't want to do it to break the traditions of what the fans are so strongly back and that is that the match going fans matter that's why they've got such cheap ticket prices um obviously with that 50 plus one rule it's hard basically fan owned for the most part and like you said with um with american owners in the premier league the reason that it's happening in seriara is because i think the majority of owners in the premier league are american and i'm sorry in the seriara american eventually it's not going to be como against lazio played in america it's going to be the milan derby it's going to be and in spain it's the same thing it's not going to be Valencia against Getafe, it's going to be Barcelona against Real Madrid.

28:34So yeah, in terms of get into it before it's an issue, that's the most important thing to try and prevent it. We did react really well with the Super League and I think you're right, that did put them on the back foot but it will come round again. It 100 % will come round again. Supporters have shown though, with the£30 ticket away cup and stuff like that, we've kept going for years and years and we need to, like Gareth said, we've got to just make sure we lock in and make sure we don't let this slip away. I think the issue is, though, like Adam kind of said, is that people do kind of get worn down eventually, especially when it's the lifeblood of football, like the match-going fans that are getting priced out of the game as well.

29:07Season ticket prices, because of how much money there is in football, how many costs, et cetera, season ticket prices are going up every single year. And eventually, you probably do get to a point where you become a little bit numb to it and go, I'm not doing this anymore. Someone then takes your seat on a week-to-week basis that doesn't love the club as much as you... It's a more passive support. Less season ticket holders, more of a transient fan base. City, for example, trying to get rid of... I don't know the ins and outs of it fully, but a lot of clubs are trying to remove season ticket holders.

29:30And it's just like, it's scary. It's quite scary.

29:41Luke, have you got a hot take for us? Obviously, that's a great subject, but mine's a bit more related to the actual on-pitch stuff. I've gone for Oscar Bob. More goals and assists than either of United's two forward signings. Amazing. Not combined, but separately. Can you say a sentence or anything without mentioning Man United? Let's try it again. Man United are shite. They can't do it. I'll go. Above you in the league, but shite. I think Oscar Bob will outdo in all camps both of those United players. Goals and assists, yeah? Yeah. He's already behind. Where do you back that up? Because they're obviously bigger names, probably got bigger reputations.

30:16He's an academy product. Last season, obviously, he was injured pretty much the entire season. The year before, sort of broke through. Had a big goal against Newcastle, I think. like we were saying the wingers at City need big outputs this season and I think Oscar Bob will be better than both of them which obviously both have been signed for big money Based on what though? I think he's an unbelievable player Does he play in your best team? No I think he does I think he does play in our best team I think he does on the right wing I think he plays in our best team and I'm sure we'll see that this season but that's my hot take I'm sure everyone's looking at me funny which is why it was clearly a good hot take

30:52Gary Neville needs a few teams I think after saying what was it I can't even remember Dan we're going to come to you West Ham yeah right oh it doesn't have to be on West Ham no no no it's on the big six the big six right this might be controversial some of you but there's a lot of talk about how you know they've built their success they've earned their status and I'm saying that they didn't earn their status they just got lucky right all the big six especially the red cartel we're bottom six by the way at the moment well I mean yeah but but you're still looked at as winning. Also, please, what is this cartel nonsense?

31:29Newcastle fans running around talking about cartel. These guys talking about... Whoa, I never said nothing about cartel. These guys are state-owned by one of the biggest, richest states in the world. And they're running around going, oh, there's cartel going on, mate. Have a look at yourself. You created FFP, mate. You literally created it. It's in the hands of those clubs. That's why these... Stop people like you having dodgy, fake sponsorship deals when you've got no fans. You've killed a load of other clubs and you've killed your own situation financially. You said on the last episode, you talked about a food chain, right?

31:55The reason there is a food chain, because your club's got lucky, it's all about time. And we agreed that football comes in cycles, right? So teams are successful for a period, and then they'll fade out. They're in Premier League titles. There you go, right? Look at the 90s, right? If you swap teams of the 70s, the 80s, 50s, and 60s, and they had their period in the 90s, they would be the big six. Huddersfield, when they was winning league titles, if you swap them with Man United, then we're talking about Huddersfield as one of the big six. You know, the Invincibles, if Preston had their Invincibles in 2004, they had theirs in the 30s, we'd be talking about Preston.

32:30So all these teams that sit there and say, we're top of the food chain, we earned it, we built it, they just got lucky in terms of timing. City and Chelsea, in terms of when they had their owners come in and buy them, this is pre-FFP, this is pre-PSR. So they got lucky in terms of the timing that they was bought. and Newcastle, as much as you're saying, well, you've got Saudi-backed club and state-backed clubs. Are we suggesting that state-owned clubs should just be allowed to do whatever they want? No, but the point... Because we're talking about football dying and we're worried that games are going to be played in America and all this, but then we're going, well, actually, let's get these big states in and let them do what they want with our clubs.

33:06That's killing football even further. That's a different point. It's not competitive. It's killing football even more. It's killing football even more. Why are you going to have a Cattario now? I oppose that more than anyone. I think you have got a point in terms of time and, you know, being there at the right time. So are you basically, are we getting to the point where you're saying PSR should be, is that what you're getting to? Well, yeah, I mean, look, I'm not saying that Newcastle should be able to just spend unlimited amounts of money. And I agree. But there has to be something in place that other clubs, you know, the ladder's just not pulled up.

33:40And it's like, well, these six, they're established. We want to keep them at the top. They're always going to have the most money. Yeah, and that's the thing. And when it comes to media attention, and things like that. The reason why, you know, we have all this Big Six content and, you know, in your job you focus on the Big Six is just because these teams were good in the 90s and early 2000s and to mid-2000s. That is it. There's nothing to say, oh, history is so rich and Liverpool do have a rich history and some of these clubs do. But look at Everton. Look at Aston Villa. Look at Nottingham Forest.

34:08So these teams, they literally, they vote for it. It's the 14 votes. FFP was introduced. I'm pretty sure it was United, Arsenal. I can't remember the four teams at the top there in Liverpool. And then everyone else voted for those rules. But I think what it was... Well, against it, said to everyone at the time, don't do that. Yeah, but I think what it was intended to do in terms of protecting clubs, you know, Sheffield Wednesday, it's not being used for that. It's just being used to cap clubs and limit clubs rather than, like, Newcastle don't need protecting from going bust from their Saudi owners.

34:40So what are we doing here? So do we allow states to just have their way? we've spent that's how you lose football but we're saying it's not relative to revenue what are we talking about here why is it okay if it's Roman Abramovich or a state I didn't say it was okay if it's Roman Abramovich saying a state doesn't make if you've got billions and billions of pounds to spend whether it's a state an oil baron you know or anything it's money I think it's fair to say I think when you look at say an Aston Villa or a Newcastle we both agree that both managers have done amazing jobs have spent a bit of money not not reckless, got to a certain point, and it feels like they can't go any further.

35:19And that'll probably be the same if Everton get their act together. You know, West Ham, your club, those type of clubs we don't see as the big six. It's like, where can you ever have that hope or dream that you could win the Premier League? Or get in, even sometimes, maybe even get into the Champions League in some cases. I do think it's fair to have the discussion around PSR feels like it's not working right now for a lot of teams within the Premier League. And you lose that little bit of hope that maybe... You're talking about maybe going back to a situation where, I think it was the decade of the 70s, when there was maybe six or seven teams in that decade who won the league, the first division.

36:00I think Everton, obviously Liverpool, Leeds. I think Derby won it, Nottingham Forest. You're almost thinking, would you ever get to that point? I think it would be really difficult. Yeah, you always felt like a team had a chance that maybe was on the outside. You know, we, 85-86, we ended up finishing third and have a really good season. But there's a hope and a belief. Even Chelsea, when they got their ownership, all the other clubs were thinking, oh my gosh, imagine we get taken over and we could potentially have an owner that can pump money into us and we can climb up. You want hope in football that your team can be successful and win leagues.

36:35But that still exists, doesn't it? Haven't we seen enough to say, like West Ham, for example, winning silverware? Leicester City winning the league There was a year where Queen's Park Rangers Could have beaten Liverpool To the league title I think Liverpool played A week later or whatever QPR would have won the league I think they fell up That was the 70s Wasn't it? Yeah That dream That Rangers fans had that year Is only the same dream That Leicester fans had in 2016 That was an anomaly Wasn't it? There was no way They could build Where are Leicester now? Where are Leicester now? That's what I'm saying Yeah absolutely We want to be you We want to be able To stay up there Qualify for the Champions League win the FA Cup in 97, the Super Cup in 98.

37:14Do you think that had any bearing on your success now? It's Roman Abramovich. Of course it did. Roman Abramovich did not. Roman Abramovich literally wanted to buy a team that were in the Champions League. He bought a team in the Champions League. Okay, but look at Newcastle. They just qualified for the Champions League and can't sign anyone. Do you know where I think it goes? It goes deeper than that. The bottom of the table. Coming up from the Championship and coming into the Premier League, I think, and I hate to say this, but for the first time in a long time, Sunderland have done really well in the way they've spent.

37:43They have been really smart in how they've spent them for the last five years. They've fed off their academy, and I think because of that, they will end up staying up this season. But how often does that happen? And I'm not even saying I like these rules, but just out of curiosity, you know how Manchester City worked out a way to kind of sponsor and make some money out of sponsorship? Chelsea have done it, not in a great way either, but just kind of sold a hotel to ourselves, sold a ladies' thing. Why have Newcastle, under the ownership of the PIF, not done something like that? Like, you have no...

38:12We've obviously played it safe to not end up in a situation which, as you say, nine times out of ten, if you're not one of the big six, your call case will go through like that. You'll get a decision made on you like that. Sorry, Luke, sorry, Luke, 115 charges? How long has that been? Yes, it's not gone through like that, has it? I feel like I'm trying to... I may have missed your point, so tell me where to shut up. But the big six is never going to change because of stuff that we talked about. social media, the world... Two of the big six finish 15th and 16th. What are we talking about here? Listen, Adam.

38:41What are we doing? You can still spend the time. Fucking hell. You can stand over for a fucking status. That's the point. What are we doing, man? Adam, they still... If you want football to die, just say it. Yeah, but you can finish 15th and 17th and still go and sign Cunha's and Mbwemos. You can take off the teams that finish the point. The point is, as the Premier League obviously takes over the world, if somebody grows up and they want to support a team, they're probably not going to support Brighton. And they may support... Because of luck, because you was good when telly, Sky, all of that became a thing.

39:10That's like when people play... You got lucky, that's what I'm saying. It's a bit like when people go to watch Batman movies. They go, a Batman movie wouldn't be good if Batman wasn't in it. He's in it. Yeah, but there's a reason. We were in the right place at the right time. Exactly. So it's the same thing. That's what I'm saying, you're lucky. Stop saying it. We built it, we earned it, we did it. You got lucky because you was in the right place at the right time in the 90s. Yeah, but good. If you were crapping in the 90s... You would want that too, so I don't understand... United were a cock team in a set.

39:39That's right, yeah, Batman's super lucky. But tell you, tell you, tell you. Yeah, but United's always been one of the biggest clubs in England, and they've got the biggest revenue in England because they've got one of the biggest stadiums. It's like with Spurs, we get kind of lumped into these Cartel 6 kind of conversations. We've done everything kind of by the book. We've built a new stadium, generated a load of different revenue streams to actually make ourselves sustainable. But we get lumped into these conversations mentally somehow. I don't really understand it. Like, I just think you can't...

40:03I understand it. I understand Newcastle and Villa's frustrations. Villa took a massive gamble in January, spent a load of money on wages. Ultimately, on the football inside, they didn't get over the line and that's what's cost them in this summer transfer window. So the buck also has to stop with the team and the manager at some point as well. But they're operating at a handicap because they don't have the big six status and all the global fan base like you do. half a rash for his wages in January. Yeah. That's what's ended up costing them. You have to look at the manager and the manager. Yeah, you have to look at the manager and the players.

40:30We have to do what we have to do The league is as competitive as it's ever been. Look at Newcastle, Villa, it's Bournemouth. Dan's had the best hot take, because basically a hot take is to wind everyone off. I'll win a prize.

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42:16Joe, we're going to finish with you on your hot tea. I think the final of the League Cup will be Manchester United versus Sunderland. Oh, no, it won't be, will it? I just had to bring it back a little bit from earlier. My big one this season is I genuinely think and it's almost a little bit of a comedy and a typical one I do think Jose Mourinho will come back to the Premier League and I think by the very end of the season he will also be sacked from the Premier League What team where do you think he'll end up? West Ham West Ham I do it's a one of those where like I mean to be fully honest with everyone sitting here right now the chances are with the madness of how managers have been at Spurs recently it's probably only going to have a base Spurs or West Ham it'll be West Ham or Forrest you could see him at Forrest Forrest is very possible Aaron Ackes would love him Forrest be some Netflix documentary there but yeah I think Mourinho will come in so Jose's back and I also think Liverpool with Isak heavily because of Isak will win the treble treble I think that is he's thrown out hot take after hot take that is the missing link to Liverpool right now is you need a comparison to Haaland and you're about to get him.

43:31It hurts. Has everybody had the heartache? Have I missed anyone? Can I throw it in? Ben, have you had one? I'd say one. I think Thomas Frank's going to win a trophy at Spurs before Mikkel Arteta wins his next trophy. Oh!

43:43That's been the favourite one. How does anything work out? Is he doing well for you? When he just decided to ring Arteta and go, can I come to your club instead? Don't make me go to Tottenham. He's not a stretch like that. He's there, he's all feeling all right. The thing is, it was embarrassing for Tottenham. We can live with that. He was an arsehole fan. He wanted to go there, whatever. The bottom line is, Mikel Arteta doesn't know how to get over the line. Spurs have got the trophy monkey off. What's Thomas Frank? I like Thomas Frank. What's he done to prove he can get over the line? Thomas Frank was at Brentford, making that team greater than some of his parts.

44:12He didn't prioritise cup competitions because ultimately the bottom line was to stay in the Premier League. He's shown that he can overachieve. His record against the big six is very, very good. Now he's got a bigger, deeper squad at Tottenham. you'd imagine there'll be more focus and priority on the cup competitions. I think it'll be a little bit like, like I think you've... Wait, are you saying like the Carabao Cup before I say it wins anything? Yeah, but you haven't... But that wouldn't, plus say anybody else will be on the Carabao Cup, that's the issue. How can you have that actually when you've won nothing?

44:35It's not my attitude. It's not my attitude. That's the... Of the fan base, they want more. That's the issue. They want more of the Carabao Cup. You can't turn your nose up at a Carabao Cup. No, I wouldn't. I'm not saying that. I'm saying, but the issue is, it's great if Thomas Frank does it, but Bartetta wins it and people just go... Because that's not the process. The process weren't to win the Caravan Cup. Exactly, that's it. Yeah, but you haven't done it. That doesn't mean it. But that's the thing. So even if that did happen... I don't understand how you can set that high... Like, fair enough, you're competing for the biggest honours, right?

44:57But you can't turn your nose up at those competitions. No, I'm saying I wouldn't, but I'm saying the issue is he could win it and we'll still have this conversation. The narrative would still be... Yeah, that's true. Whereas it changes massively. It's the bottom line. That's it. I agree with you. I'm agreeing with you it's not enough for Arsenal it's just not well bottom line is I think he'll win a trophy first I think we'll be a little bit like we were under Poch where we were getting to semi-finals and finals and not quite getting over the line but I do actually think like Thomas Frank spoke about the mentality of the group when he came into the squad I do think that as much as last season was a terrible season we've been able to keep the captain that helped us get over the line to win the trophy I do think there is a bit of a difference in mentality with Spurs going into this season hopefully after having such a long drought hopefully that taste of success is what can then get us over the line when we couldn't do it under Poch.

45:39And I feel like you're showing all of the signs that we had under Pochettino, even though you spent a lot more money than we did, we spent hardly any money, and proved that you can't do it. So I think we're going to get there first and win something. Simon, I've got to go to you. So, yeah, I mean, I may have to defer to you this on, because you probably know more than I do. I think Amerim, the reason Amerim will still be in charge at the end of the season is none to do with results. It's because Jim Ratcliffe doesn't want to show face. He's a business owner, and he probably thinks, I know better than the fan base.

46:04I've built all these billion dollar, I presume, is businesses. So the reason he'll stick with him is because that's his first big decision he's made. And if he holds his hands up and says, I got it wrong too, like the Glazers got it wrong, just watching some of his interviews, I think he'll keep him based on arrogance. I'm not sure it was his decision. I think a lot's made of... No, but I think... Is it... Barada and Wilcox. I think it was Barada's decision. I mean, you might know more than me. I don't want to refer to you about that. There was a lot of talk about Amarin when there was talk about Pep potentially moving on at Amarin, potentially being there, and Barada left there.

46:34So maybe there's something in that. I just I think Ratcliffe would stick with him but if we are mid-table or lower like by Christmas I think you've got to you know I think he's gone by January I do I really do I think it was a Jim Ratcliffe thing There's something there to it because didn't he sack your director of football because he wanted Southgate instead of Amerim I don't know if it was all about Southgate but again with that Ashworth thing I kind of thought why are you bringing him in if you're going to get rid of him straight away but then I can kind of respect if you think something is not working after a month gone you're not let's just end this now rather than hold on I'm not sure Radcliffe gets involved that much I think he just leaves it to the people he's got in charge he just sacks off all the team ladies we'll go with your Karez scores the most goals in the Premier League there you go that's what we're going to go with it it's never going to happen I'll go with it top Premier League goals he's shining he's shining he's shining he's shining like Tony Soprano running from the police now you You know when he's running in the snow?

47:36He's playing soprano. Looks like he's playing with jeans on. Now you've brought Jokeres up. We said before about not judging players after three games. But there was a lot of talk before he came in of, like, his goal record's amazing. But there was then a school of thought of other people saying, I'm not quite sure this guy's good enough for the actual elite. Now, we've only seen him for three games. He's already got two goals. But he's not the easiest on the eye, is he? No, he's not. Did you hear what someone said? I don't know who it was. He looks like he played... Playing in jeans. Now that one.

48:12I think he is... I watched him again. He was actually the funniest person to watch when I went to the Leeds game. Because... By the way, Leeds let everyone score. No, but what I mean is, though, it's like... How do I describe it? So let's say he does ten things. Seven of them, you're like, I don't know what that was. Then three of them, he's scoring a goal or getting into the right place. He's going to need a lot of service. I think his trouble is he's been brought in to be the difference in the big games. That's right, and he wasn't. He's going to be a flat-track bully against Leeds, but he's not going to turn up again.

48:40We've got to give him time, but I think you're right. I think his whole thing will be, all other stats you should ignore with Jokre this season, it should be, how many goals did he score compared to how many games did he play? The rest of it is going to be very much of a much, and it doesn't matter. But I do see what he's coming from. I'm still convinced, and I said this before this season, that when Haveta's fit, Haveta will play the biggest games. I think you're right. I think you're right. But thank goodness we have the options. That's a hard take. But thank goodness we have the option. We didn't have the option last year, and we needed the option.

49:05And he bullies people. I know it was Leeds, but he was. He was kicking and scratching and clawing. Flat trap bully. Absolutely, yeah. Absolutely. Lots of pressure now. One billion euros since the last trophy. Lots of pressure. Euros. All right. How are 17? Everyone else is doing it. It sounds better. It's about Richard Romano. Thank you. Thank you. Right, we're going to call it a day. That's the end of the episode of The Fan Debate, brought to you by Skybet. See you next time.

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