Martin Tyler: The Aguero Goal, Fergie’s Phone Call & A Life in Commentary | The Overlap Fan Debate

0:00When you think of Martin Tyler, there's one weird I think we think of, isn't there? The Aguero goal was my dad's ringtone for about five years. It was Sergio's moment. It was Manchester City's moment. And I was just lucky enough to be holding the microphone, really. The players are getting on the bus. The players are having breakfast. They're wearing white suits. There's a Mr Ferguson on the phone. I said, I swear I never told anybody. You did the FIFA games as well, didn't you? Yeah, that was interesting. Your brain was all over the place, really. I'll always remember yelling at your show, S-E-N!

0:30I love the war cry that you did when G scored against Man City. He's done it! Talk little, but say a lot. Sometimes I do. I have to almost tell myself to shut up for a minute. There was a player, and I have never named him, but you can work it out for yourself. I won't confirm it. He told something. Keith Gillespie. And that's how it came. I'm saying nothing.

0:58Hello, and welcome back to the Fan Debate brought to you by Skybet. And I am joined by my former colleague, Good to see you, Sam. Yes. The Voice, Martin Tyler. So thanks for coming along, Martin. You're the special guest this week. So we're going to have a little look back at your career, a very long career and a great career, I should add, as well. And we'll also get a few questions from the supporters. Can I remind you before we get going that this is the second time you've interviewed me? Okay. The first time was in 1996, and I was scheduled to cover the Youth Cup final between West Ham and Liverpool.

1:36and the first leg was at West Ham, so the Liverpool team had travelled and were staying in a hotel in Essex. And as a proper professional, I went to watch them train, so I knew who was going to play. And I knew a few of them, but when they were getting on the bus, this was the day before the game, when they get on the bus to go back to the hotel, I was kept out on the tarmac outside the bus by an inquisitive young man who wanted to know more about me when I really wanted to know about him. and that was the first time we met and it's great to relive those kind of memories. I also commentated on his first goal for Liverpool as well.

2:15Proper goal, not own goal. I've done one or two of them as well, by the way. Martin, OK, that's how we initially met, so it's been a wrong relationship, so thank you. I want to start, Martin, because obviously we'll get into your career, but when you think of Martin Tyler, there's sort of one word I think we think of, isn't there, when you have a goero. I mean, for a commentator, that almost feels like the pinnacle in some ways where you are remembered. Is that right? Kenneth Walson home famously is remembered for obviously the 1966 commentary. Is that the thing every commentator is almost searching for, that thing to be remembered for in some ways?

3:03No, not at all. Not in my case. It was just the game. It was the exciting game. It was the moment. Kenneth Walsenholm had the wonderful moment when they were on the pitch. They did think it was all over and Jeff Hurst bangs it into the top corner. And, you know, that's just an instinctive reaction. And I suppose mine was just an instinctive reaction. The only thing I really remember about it is when it went 2-2, I thought, this is on. And so I suppose I was preparing myself for that. But, yeah, if there's one word that's... When I see people in the street and they recognise me for what I do, that's the one word they come up with.

3:37I can't do it again. Someone's here, Cam. We've got someone near, Cam. He's our Man City Man, Luke. I mean, I've shouted it enough as a kid, honestly, running around the garden. I don't think I'm going to give a live reaction to that. Pretend you're a Aguero on commentary. Can't take my shirt off, mate. I can do it and it's live. I can do that for everybody. I've done that for a thousand selfies and things like that. But people ask for Aguero. It's just a moment, you know, and it happens. But it was interesting, Alan Paria, who you know, a Liverpool fan as well, who was commentating when Gary gurgled on the Barcelona.

4:15Yeah, I've seen his interview last week with it, yeah. And so he sort of looked at it as possibly a moment to go alongside it. But it was Sergio's moment. It was Manchester City's moment. and I was just lucky enough to be holding the microphone, really. You don't want to mess it up on those days, and I suppose I didn't do that. But I'm always looking forward, really. Looking back is nice, but it's done, you know. But you said something that I found interesting when you sort of said, when it goes to 2-2, you're thinking, OK, you're almost getting yourself that something could happen. And I suppose, you know, for a commentator, you've got to understand the moment to understand that something special could be happening here.

4:57I've almost got to be, you're always ready. You're commentating on a game, but you know something pretty special could happen here. Yeah, you know the context, I think. I mean, but commentators ball watch, really, and you're the co-commentator, you're watching the bigger picture. But I just remember that I didn't get the opportunity to talk to Sergio about it for eight or nine years after it happened, but then I did. And the one thing that I said to him was, I knew you'd score before you knew you'd score. It's just like his touch. He's a guero. You know, everything's on the line. And until the ball goes in the net, he doesn't know he scored.

5:32But I think that's why I got some air in my lungs. But what comes out is just this reaction to the moment, you know. And it was a fantastic moment. I've been doing it 38 years, I think. And suddenly I became an overnight success on one word. But that'll be the word. When I leave this mortal coil, that'll be the one word that'll be on the obits, I'm sure. So it's nice to have that. It'd be stupid to say it's not, but I've done a few other games as well. Where's Joe? Right. Well, we can't miss him today, can we? No, where's Joe? Right, Joe? Have you got a question for Martin? Martin, one thing I would like to know, obviously there's so many games that you've covered.

6:12I mean, personally, for me, I don't know why it is, but I'll always remember you having a shout, SEN! That will always stick out to me. It's just a mad run. Obviously, Aguero's there, Rooney's there. I think of Rooney, I hear your voice. But for me, looking at you and everything you've done in your career, is there any sort of moment that really stands out the most for you? Other than the Aguero, a certain game, a whole game that stands out for you? No, not really. I coach a bit and we got to, we got Woking into the National League and we won a semi-final. It's on YouTube, actually. We won a semi-final where we were 2-0 down with 12 minutes to go and we won in normal time 3-2.

6:54That's the game that I always think about. If I want a smile on my face and I wasn't commentating, I was just shouting, we don't want to go to extra time, we've got a win there, they've gone, that kind of stuff. So the next game is, I mean, as we speak now, I'm doing Leeds v Chelsea on Wednesday. I'm still very lucky after Sky had their time with me and I understand that and I love Sky. I have total respect for what they did for me. I'm very, very grateful and long friendships as well like Gary and Cara so I'm on the train coming up here today I've been just prepping Leeds for Chelsea and then when that's over I've got Salford's game on Friday so it just goes like that and until I suppose when it does stop then I will look back but now I just want to get the next game right and that's the only way like the players Once you've played, you have your celebration after the game and then you go again, you go again.

7:56When I was very young, when I just started commentating, somebody apparently asked me, what do you want to be doing in 20 years? I said, I want to be doing this. And now it's 50 years and I'm very lucky still to be doing it. So, yeah, it's the desire to keep going, really, that keeps me young, I hope-ish. No, man, can I ask you then? because, I mean, you're speaking about basically the homework that you would do for a game. And as a co-commentator, not just you, you know, the way commentators put into a game, it almost feels like, when I think about people who love the game, we talk about supporters, and if you stay in the game as an ex-player, as a manager, or you love the game, I think the love commentators have for the game, I think is maybe unmatched in some ways because the actual amount of work...

8:44Roy Evans, who you know, he said to me, you love the game more than me. And he was manager of Liverpool. Obviously, he loves the game. I think we do. I think if people ask, what does it take to be a commentator? The number one quality is what you've just outlined. It is love for the game because that takes you through the difficult times and keeps you buoyant to go again, to go again. I mean, the commentators now is so many games. Some freelance commentators are probably doing five games a week or something like that. So to stop you being stale from that is the love because you want to make sure.

9:21I was treasured every game. I'm talking about Leeds-Chelsea. I'm treasuring that because that's the next game. I think the danger with so much being on, it's harder to do that for the younger commentators, but I'm sure deep down they do it. And if you've got that love and you're prepared to sacrifice, my family will tell you that I wasn't there at the weekends and so there have been sacrifices in my life. And I would say, if you want to do it, love the game and just think what you're going to be committing to. 20 years of no weekends, except working, but with your love, with your love of the game.

9:57So that's the essential ingredient. I watched something yesterday, Mark, I did the... I was at Sky yesterday doing the games, and on the way back I was on social media, and obviously because of the really sad news around Billy Bonds, something came up on my phone and it was the 1980 FA Cup final where you were interviewing Paul Allen and Billy Bonds, West Ham, had just beaten Arsenal in the Cup final and obviously with you coming on today, it just hit me just how long you've actually been in the game. You know, we've all grown up and in some ways commentators are part of your life, When you're a kid growing up, you always get that voice, don't you, or a goal or someone describing a goal.

10:41And you were that for me. And the reason I say that was the 1985 European Cup Winners' Cup semi-final is like the biggest game in Everton's history. I'm an Everton fan. You were the commentator on that game. And that takes me back to being like seven years of age, but you're still going now. Our mutual friend Andy Gray absolutely whacked by me, didn't they? Physically whacked them. And they went out for the second half. and that was when Goodison used to shake and probably was still shaking up until the end of last season. And may still shake now. There were women's football being played there.

11:16But yeah, it was a very special, very special night. And I have very strange memories of it because there was a Danish player called Soren Lerby who played in that game for Bayern. And after the game, he was gracious enough to come out and give the Bayern point of view of their defeat. It was a great night for Everton, a poor night for Bayern. And so he had to come across the pierce. So I walked back to the dressing room with him, and they'd gone. Bayern had left him behind. They were so shattered by the manner of the defeats and the physicality of it as well. I had to drive him. They were staying there.

11:50They hadn't left the country, but they left the ground. I had to drive him back to the old Holiday Inn, Paradise Street. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I had to take him back down there. I had a terrible car. I mean, this is a long time ago. So he had to sort of shuffle in, and so I dropped him off. So that was my biggest, my part from Andy Gray. Whenever I do see him these days, it's the game he talks about for sure, yeah.

12:17Justin, you've got a question for Barton? Yeah, for you, actually. Oh, sorry? Do you have co-coms or punditry? You obviously do both of them. Which one do you prefer? I'm interested in the answer to them. It was funny because when I initially start, I think you start in punditry and then you almost become a co-commentator. That's certainly what I did and I think what Gary did. And Gary was really pushing me saying you should try co-commentary, try co-commentary. And I think it's really interesting now. I think people are a little bit worried to do co-commentary because I think there's that much negativity about it on social media.

12:52I think it's sort of people are a little bit like, oh, I don't want to be part of that. but I mean that doesn't bother me or Gary really to be honest nothing beats Monday Night Football for me that's my thing where I just think oh god I could do that every week if it was on because I just love to sort of try to find analysis and numbers and sparking debate but the next best thing I would think would be cold commentary in terms of when a big moment happens that I mean you've obviously been talking about the Aguero moment but that's the commentator's moment as well it's less the co-commentators wasn't as TVG scored against him the co-commentator took over had just got Gerrard out before Andy Grape take a bow son or whatever it was I must tell you I did the first game that Jamie ever did as a co-commentator Burnley v Liverpool and it was blowing a gale up there, tell the story about what happened Burnley's ground is not like one of the newer grounds shall we say so the comedy position is right at the back of the stand isn't it opposite the benches and probably the technology's not great so there's all kinds of plugs and wires and everything there and there's a light shining on us so we can see everything and as we just started the game the light fell on my head they had to cut him as well and I'm going oh my goodness he'll never want to do a co-comment theatre again at Burnley and worst of all Liverpool had 82 % possession and lost 2-0.

14:25Remember that part of it? It was very early in the season. It was. It was ridiculous because we had the show of the cricketers playing and where James Anderson used to play, of course. Yeah, yeah. So that was it. Yeah, so I was... Yeah, I do love that moment and I still think of that... Oh, you were commentating on it when the last-minute goal in the derby. Oh, yes. That sort of... Those sort of moments or... And I think for the first couple of years when I was doing Liverpool, they scored a lot of last-minute goals I always think I'm not daft I know people say I'm a Liverpool supporter on commentary and get excited when they score and stuff but what I would say is I think a last minute goal for a commentator in commentary is almost that's like that's the moment it's the same as the way everybody is in the ground you have to reflect that it feels like it's the winning goal and nothing's going to come after it so you go nuts everyone goes nuts and that's what I think is the moment in common, I feel.

15:24What I would also add, I've worked with two people who have prepped beyond, perhaps what one would expect, way beyond. Jamie is one. David Pleat, the former Tottenham manager in Sheffield Wednesday, Leicester and Luton, I worked with him a long time ago and his attention to detail, not everybody's like that. And sometimes it's more just the enthusiasm they bring. But Jamie's, as you can see, is always very well prepared. He's prepared for me. Yeah. But I've seen you at work and I'm very impressed at it because there is a lot of negativity if you're not careful. If you take the best care you can, you can at least minimise it as well and he does that, absolutely.

16:12Felix, you've got a question for Martin? Yes, I'm glad that you mentioned social media, Jamie, because before the world we live in now, when we only had access to just football matches themselves and not the players every day. What is really interesting to me about the cup final is that that was almost the invention of constant content. Like for people that grew up about 40 like me in the 90s, it was the first day we had access to like, the players are getting on the bus, the players are having breakfast, they're wearing white suits, all this kind of thing. And it's like, when you look back on it, you're like, oh, they nailed that as that was the first time of how addictive it was to be that connected to footballers.

16:47And I know that you, Martin, with a Fulham perspective, You were on the bus with the 75 team. I've been on the bus, I think, eight times to Wembley with a cup final team. It's an extraordinary privilege. Yeah. Extraordinary. And, of course, now you wouldn't know which bus to get on because they have so many. But, yeah, Fulham was the first one I did in 75. We had a 50th anniversary of that in May, and I was invited. It was really privileged to be invited. There's a little story, actually, about that. John Lacey was the centre-half. He was born in Liverpool. and he was a non-league player before he went to Fulham.

17:22I played against him twice in non-league football and he was by far the best player I'd ever played against. About eight years after the cup final, Everton played. He'd gone to Spurs then, so he was a top player really. Anyway, he'd gone to Spurs and Graham Sharp absolutely bullied John Lacey. I think he might have even ended up getting sent off, John. So I always say Graham Sharp's there, Lacey's there and Tyler's here because that really put into perspective what it takes to be the level that Jamie plays. So, yes, I went with Southampton when they beat Man United the following year. I went with Liverpool.

17:58I went with Manchester United and Tottenham. That was the last one I went, I think, when they lost to Coventry. Yeah, yeah. So it was an amazing experience. Short of taking your boots, you were in the squad, really. Was that intimidating? because it must have felt like you were invading a very sort of private space. No, I mean, I'd listened at the Fulham 50th anniversary. They played some of the tapes from me. I mean, it was totally irreverent, really. I'm going to Peter Mello as a goalkeeper. I said, oh, you like to eat. Are we stopping at a Chinese on the way? You know, things like that. And I'm quite appalled by today's standards.

18:34And just before we got on the bus, I interviewed the great Bobby Moore at the hotel who left West Ham and was playing for Fulham in the final against West Ham. And I said something like, well, what's it mean, playing against West Ham? And he answered it, and I went, well, do you think they've got something to sort you out? Sort you out? I mean, this is the man who held up the World Cup and everything, but that must have been more indicative of the times because I was allowed to go on and do that sort of... It was like dressing room banter, really, on the bus. It wouldn't be like that now. Kwaku, you've got a question for Martin?

19:13Yeah, so a lot of your moments have been defined not just by what you say, but also the pauses as well. So in relation to working with a co-commentator, how do you work out when to not say anything and let the moment breathe and when to really fill the moment with incredible words? I realise that when I'm silent, I am the best commentator in the world. No, I think Jamie would be better to answer that because I have a sort of rhythm of commentating. I never did radio. Almost everybody you could name as a commentator has done radio and I never did it because I wanted to be a footballer. And so I played non-e football until I was 27 and I got a chance to go into television behind the scenes.

19:53So I never thought of being a commentator at all. It just sort of happened as the next best thing when I hadn't made it as a player.

20:04So what I did, I started from scratch really and I had no experience, but I got a few games because ITV were short in some of the regions. Somebody couldn't do a game, and I'd had a go at it as a practice test for the company I was working for. And so it just happened. So I think I do speak less. And actually, when I got my first game, John Motson, who was obviously and remained for a long time the voice of football on BBC television, I'd met him a few times. kindly, you won't even know what this is, he sent me a telegram. Does anybody know what a telegram is? You know? He could have sent me a social now or an email or whatever.

20:49He sent me a telegram. He said, talk little, but say a lot. I thought that was wonderful advice. And whether my style just fitted that or I actually assimilated it deliberately, I don't think it just happened that way. But it was a great thing. And for John to take the trouble to do this for my first game was amazing, really.

21:15Hello and welcome back to our new game called Shot on Target brought to you by Skybet Kieran joins me on the couch today so here is how the game works it's Kieran and myself versus the fans we've got Stato Angus Loughran yeah right so Premier League goals are going for today so Keaton's going to give it a spin yeah and then we'll try and guess goal wise could have put a bit more venom on that he could have come on Wayne Rooney would have put a bit more into that 88 I generally haven't got a clue who's captain you've already got to I've got 100 % I've got a 100 % win the rest of it can we be a I've got a good one or something like that he's going to get to land 88 is that right yeah in total I suppose yeah yeah yeah Just premiering?

22:08Yeah. Do... It's always... Wait, let them go first. Let them go first. Let them go first. Yeah, then change it if it's wrong. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You always go first. As I say... Mate, I know that. I feel like you've got... If you know it, you know it. I think I should go. Hang on. You've got to let him. Like if you're there on the spot. Luke? Are we locked in, everyone? Yeah, I'm... Hang on. Shall we go first? I genuinely don't think I'll do too well on this, but the reason I'm going to go for someone here is because I've read it in the press lately that Callum Wilson is desperate to be in the front of you.

22:43I thought he was. And he's maybe 10 or 15 short. And he scored two the other day. Or did he score one? Callum Wilson scored a couple the other day, didn't he? I'm going to go Callum Wilson. OK, Callum Wilson, fans. is our captain, by the way. Carlos Tevez. Right, OK. I can tell you that Callum Wilson scored 92 goals, whereas Carlos Tevez has got 84. Oh! Is it time? Oh, my God! Wow! Unbelievable! It's been again. 4-4. I love how all of you's like, we're like, I think we have to go again. Callum Wilson. Goals be the one. Yeah. Yeah. I'll let you down there. Right, we spin again. Spin again. Now give it some.

23:39Go on.

23:46Need some WD40 on that. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Ooh. Defenders. Who's joined? I think you've got defenders. Prolific defenders of the league. Prolific defenders? Stevie Bruce scored 15. Did he? Yeah, but... I don't have ever shot that. Don't tell he's got more, surely. Is he not going to have, like, 12 there? I think it's quite over. Yeah, I think that's right. I imagine he's got, like, close to 40. What's, like, John McGinn? Who's going first? You went first last time. Has anyone got any glare in you? I'm going to say something on the lines of... What do you think, John?

24:39That's just so... I didn't think we know enough about that. That's a wild suggestion. You just pulled a random name. That would be a good shout. That could be... It might be a great shout. But I don't think you know it. Do we do it for the potential? No. Come on, let's go. We don't do it for the potential. Come on, Gigi Okasaki. And he just said the name. No, no, no, that's not the captain. That's not the captain, mate What are you doing? TG Okazaki That's it Who is he? He was in the strangle What, the Premier League? Who? That's a wild He didn't even consult your team, mate Sorry, I'm sorry That's a round conversation there By the way, can we Okazaki?

25:15Can we take that back? No, no, no That wasn't our captain That wasn't the captain, mate I'm Van Dijk It's a disgrace Right So I can tell you He's getting fined a week's wages in, by the way He's gone Just going to double check that one. Right, okay, so... Okazaki, 14. Jesus Christ. Van Dyke is 25. Hey! Van Dyke as well? How many are Van Dyke? 25? Said Van Dyke. Can you check... I was going to say Steve Bruce. Who else did you say? I said John McGinn.

25:51Lack of authority from you there. No, it's not. You just shouted at me. I can't control your mouth. Where did that even come from? He just gave it a shout out. He said potential limbs or something. There's no limbs, mate. What was that? Right, go on. Give it another goal. Give it another goal. Do you want to hear that music again? If we get a 95... Is it music or just... I know one more. No idea. We have to get this now. Yeah, we do. Is this the last game? Is this the last game? We should draw the first one. We've got to get it to draw. We've got to land on 92. Okay. A winner. Okay. I'll come back round to 92.

26:21Oh, free. Oh, free. I got one. I got one. Yeah. What about someone this season? You sure? Yeah, that's it. Cordigan? Someone from this season? Mark or Bryce? No! No! No! No! No! No! No! He's not even in our team. He's over there. No, no, no. That's not locked in. No, can't be. It's a good shot what you said. No. This is the new player. Yeah, go for the new post. Oh. Oh Yeah Do it Do it Yeah Brian Brobbett No no no no What Okay Yeah we'll go for Benjamin Wait they're going first Benjamin No they're going Yeah but You've seen He's literally biting Worst gaffer ever Mate you're not even In the team Sasko They've gone for Sasko Okay Okay we're going to go Eketike He's got more He's defo got more He's got three I think he's got four He's got three Just Premier League isn't it Let's go a bit We've gone First game of the season Everton Newcastle Have we missed one?

27:27Yeah No you haven't He's got three Got three TK's got three Yes He's got three He's got lost He had two for you I made one up Happy days You've done well there Who needs Raymond Ooney?

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28:24In my role as a co-commentator, obviously you work with different commentators and everyone has their own little way of doing things. And I remember Gary saying the first time, he sort of gave me a bit of advice how to not deal, to use the wrong word, but actually, because when you commentate, this is interesting to me, because when you commentate with someone, more often than not, a lot of the time, the commentator might look at you as if to say, especially when you're starting almost to go on you can have a little go but he said Whit Martin he's so engrossed in the game he won't look at you so much it'll be like he's just he's in he's so in he said so when you've got when he stops you've got to get in because you were so like you were almost and your style of commentary was not almost to describe it was almost like a conversation that's the way I'd describe it and there's no right or wrong but certain commentators might just, you're obviously describing what's going on.

29:21Whereas a lot of the time with Martin, you feel like you're having a conversation about football and the game was going on. Is that a bit? No, I think that's very true. But the first thing, I think the only reason I wasn't looking is because I'm looking at the pitch in case I missed something. Yeah, yeah. You know, I don't think it was ever, I've always felt, and I think I've always felt, God remember when I started, it was just one commentator. So there aren't that many around now who've done that kind of apprenticeship really. When I first worked with a co-commentator, it was as strange as you starting out as well.

29:56But I believe, I suppose as I get older, you get more paternalistic, but I really believe that it's my job to make sure that the co-commentator's happy. I always say to you many times at the end of the game, it's okay, you know, because somebody might ask me who your favourite co-commentator is, and the truth is it's like being asked who your favourite child is, you know? Well, I did that with a Barlet manager. Dean Brennan is a friend of mine. And he went, my daughter. And I said, not many people say that. Most people understand what I'm trying to say, really. And obviously the ones you work with a lot, you do form more of a bond with Alan Smith as well as Gary and Cara and other people at Sky as well.

30:37Fantasia and Ian St. John, a Liverpool legend I worked at ITV with quite a lot. And he was special. People who love the game as well. that sometimes people out of football come in and they're not really sure where they're going to go and this is one thing they're trying out and they get a chance to do it, but you can tell they don't really focus on it. It's all in, isn't it? I mean, it's all in, been all in for you from where you've gone from to where you are and it's fantastic what you've done and that's why it's lovely to come and share these memories with an audience and the viewers as well and the listeners.

31:09But it is all or nothing, I think, and those who aren't there's no middle ground those who are in the middle ground probably should be going and do something else Luke you've got a question? Yeah I was just going to ask both of you really when you're commentating is there anything the other commentator does or just generally when you're watching a game that like annoys you what's like your pet peeve kind of thing when you're commentating with the person you're with or just you're listening in general listening to other commentators is there anything in particular that they do that you think I'm not a fan of that I don't know I'm just trying to think well Martin's obviously far too diplomatic to be critical of another commentator you know what sometimes I think people criticise this about cold commentators and I'm probably guilty of it people say they speak too much whereas I said before about Martin having a real love for the game commentators I'm a very close probably second behind I could watch a game that was 0-0 and find something to sort of keep me going or it might be a system or it might be a formation.

32:17And I can't help but chat about football, commentating, if you know what I mean. And I do sometimes when I come back and I just think, maybe I did talk a bit too much. Or sometimes you're in the game actually and you think, I've been talking for a bit. And I might actually go, you know what, I'll just put my mic down for a few minutes. You know, and leave the commentator to it and almost think, I've probably been speaking a bit too much there. but it's only through a sort of an enthusiasm for the game. So I would imagine other commentators might say that about me or viewers that I might be thinking when I'm sat on thinking, oh, can I have to stop talking for a bit?

32:49But mine is a genuine sort of enthusiasm for what's in front of me but sometimes I do. I have to go, almost tell myself, just shut up for a minute, you know, just stop talking. I think I talk more now because I'm working with commentators for the Premier League productions and for other organisations as well, where I don't have the fellowship and the friendship necessarily. I mean, that's not to say that we don't interact or anything like that, but if the commentator's less experienced, then I feel I've got to contribute more. And it annoys me, so goodness knows what happens for those who are listening around the world.

33:29But you can't do it perfectly. We've tried. Every time you go out, you try to do it perfectly, but it's unscripted. It's a reactive thing to the game, so you can't say, oh, if he does that, I'll do this. You just have to let the game happen and try and go along with it. I've had a lot of help from people in the game in prepping for games. People take me into their confidence and tell me what the teams are. I remember it was one Man United-Liverpool game, and I thought I'm the only person in the country that knows both teams the night before the game. I'm sure I wasn't with all the skullduggery that goes on.

34:10But I have been told by both managers what the lineups were. And it's a massive responsibility to do that. Sometimes you don't even talk to your colleagues until the team's announced. I can confirm that. I think because Martin had been in the game so long and was so respected by every manager, I think, I might be wrong saying this, but it felt like 99 % of the time you would know both teams before they came out. And I would say 100 % of the time you never told anyone because you never told me or Gary what you knew before, through a confidence thing with the managers that you didn't want to lose that respect or bond you had with them just to let us know the team maybe 15 minutes.

35:03No, I think maybe 15 minutes before it came out or something like that. But I'll tell you the one story, I'll try and make it quick, where knowing everything and respecting everything didn't help. Alec Ferguson told me about there was a Manchester United Cup replay at Sunderland. and they'd drawn at Old Trafford and it was midweek and in those days you had the manager's direct line in the office and things like that. I was lucky to get him and he said, well, we're going to play differently. Paul Parker's going to play as a sweeper. And, oh gosh, so anyway, so I'm privileged. So I travel up to the northeast and get to the ground and, of course, some of the managers, Peter Reid, and Peter Reid's best mate, Andy Gray.

35:52So I go into the office, Andy's already there, and Andy goes, guess what? Man United are going to play with a sweeper. And so I go, I know, but I can't say that I know because I'd be betraying the confidence. So what we agreed with, I was party to this, but it was in the end Sky's decision. We put up, if Man United play like this, some of them will play like this, and if they play like this with a sweeper, whoa, whoa, whoa, wow, Sunderland are going to play like that. So we sort of hedged our way through it. But I knew I was in a sticky situation, but I hadn't told anybody. I didn't even participate in this conversation that I knew.

36:34So the game's played, and Sunderland score first. Phil Gray, not many people remember him, but he scored. And then Parker is taken off, so they go back to their normal way of playing. United score twice in the second half and win 2-1 through to the next round. So I go back home the next morning and I go home and then my wife says to me, there's a Mr. Ferguson on the phone. I think, oh, I pick up the phone. No, well done, Alec. You know, it didn't change a thing. Then it was like, you so-and-so, something new that this was happening and everything. I said, I swear I never told anybody. And I didn't, but he didn't really believe me.

37:12I genuinely believe to this day he doesn't believe me. But I know what happened. I found out what happened, that there was a player, and I have never named him, but you can work it out for yourself, but I won't confirm it, who had recently moved to Newcastle from Manchester United, who was mates with the Man United players, and he'd been told that on the day before the game, they'd worked out this system in a training ground game. So the word had got to him from some of the reserve players who'd played against the first team in the training ground game that this was going to happen. And because maybe his thoughts, having left Manchester United, we're not so positive about the manager, he told Sunderland.

37:51Keith Gillis. And that's how it came. I'm saying nothing. You know your football. Yes.

38:06Have you ever dunked a custard cream in an English breakfast here with milk in? I don't know if I've ever done that. Why have they got leaf blowers? That is him. It's Mike said Fred in the front. Big cold. Big Fred. Unbelievable. Gary Neville, grow a proper muzzy or shave it off, you scruff.

38:27You just said 4-3-3 before that. Ça va! Hello, hello, hello. We're going to start Andrew on two and a half.

38:37Can't wait.

38:42Dad's waited 18 years to shave it. I know. I think so. The same dynamics actually suit Marcus Rashford. It's Nicky Butt, Teddy Sheringham, Roy Keane, hand-cliding over Hotel Paul. Martin Wenger. It's all I was talking to, Liam and Messi. Sia, why did you not push him down the stairs? Sia!

39:02Give him what he wants! Give him what he wants! Yeah!

39:14Matt, you got a question for my own? I do, and I want to thank you, firstly, for everything that you've done, and like Jamie said, sort of carrying us through our childhood. You were always there for us, so thank you. It's funny, people kindly say it, and it's very sweet what you're saying. You're the voice of my childhood. And I go, well, actually, I was the voice of my childhood as well. But I never knew that it would become a voice like it is, because I never trained or did anything like that. So please answer quickly. So speaking of voice, I think you've got a beautiful voice. is very cinematic and captivating.

39:45How important do you think your actual tone of voice has been in your success in comparison to the knowledge and the love of the game that you have? Well, it seems so, but it hasn't been deliberate, I promise. My dad had a wonderful voice. My dad was a shopkeeper, but I could hear his voice out because the road was at our front room. I'd hear him talking to customers out. He had a wonderful, resonant voice. And that always struck me as he should have been a broadcaster, really um i just don't know i got a good education i i believe in grammar and i was at a grammar school you know and i went to university but not not to do with anything that um that's led into my career so when you start everybody goes who's this guy oh this is an unfamiliar voice it's the familiarity and i've been lucky enough to do it for a long period of time so when i speak people and they'll be footballers like that.

40:41And I guess that helps. But there are a lot of voices. I mean, obviously, it's a strong, scouse voice. You've got Gary, a very mank voice. And you just accept it. But when I started, probably you had to speak a little bit more Queen's English, if you like, whatever it was perceived way of speaking. But it's wonderful now. I think the use of language is amazing. And it's used in so many different ways. I try and keep up I coach a bit and some of the lads try and get me to say a phrase and oh my days is one I haven't yet found a way of doing it although when I look back after games I think oh I could have said it it's not trying to keep up with the kids but it's trying to communicate the best way possible and it changes, it does change Martin can I ask you we mentioned early on but we didn't go into the detail in terms of how much of your love of football for any commentator but you've obviously got a game midweek how long is the preparation time how long are we talking so you can go to that game fair and right I'm across everything I think it's how long have I got in the World Cups I mean the last World Cup I've done most since I left ITV for Australian television so there's a lot of game in the 1990 World Cup, I did 39 of the 52 games, and not all of them from the ground, obviously.

42:14So if I've got a few hours, I use a few hours. If I've got two weeks, I'll use the two weeks. I won't be every minute of every day, but I'll be thinking about it. I mean, it is peculiarly obsessive. I admit that. It's the addiction we all feel for football. But it's nice to keep it ticking over. I would watch. so I've got Salford and Lake Norrin I've been to see Salford play Lake Norrin's a bit more of a problem because I haven't been able to fit a fixture in but there's a lot online now it makes it a lot easier so maybe on the journey back from Leeds not before then because as you get older it's harder to prep in advance I think I have to do it one at a time one step at a time so on the way back from Leeds on Thursday morning I'll be probably looking on YouTube to recognise some of the Lake Norrin players I know one or two of them already, but then I can focus on that.

43:08So that's only two days. I think as you get older, if you mess up, I've messed up in all ages of my career, but because you're old, you're going to go, you're too old. And there's a real wish to prove that if, of course, I'm a human being, I will make mistakes, but it's a mistake that any commenter can make at any age rather than not sure about that. Adam, you got one? Yeah, obviously, as a Manchester United fan, you've commentated on a lot of iconic moments for the club. A lot of the time, I'd record the game and then get back from the match and watch it just to hear the pictures you painted around the goal when certain moments happened.

43:48How easy or difficult is it for you to capture the moment and capture the emotions that the fans who are celebrating the goal would feel, but also try and remain neutral? I don't think... I mean, if the moment is of that club, I think this is one of the things that commentators have to deal with. I mean, Manchester United won all those Premier League titles while I was commentating on a lot of the games. So no wonder people think I like Manchester United. Listen, I'm a football fan myself. I've woken up in my team since I went in 1953, and I've coached there. I was assistant manager there for four years, and I'm now coaching at the academy.

44:25It's my team. And when we play Aldershot or somewhere like that, which is not my rivalry, but the fans' rivalry now. I get what they beat Aldershot, Aldershot won Woking 2 two weeks ago, just for the record. And I get what the fans feel about it. But it's not, it's just a reaction to the moment. And the harder part is if you really like the player, if you're mates with them, that's much more difficult. Or if you have to criticise them. Gareth Southgate played for Villa in a game, I think it was against Chelsea, 3-0 to Chelsea at Villa Park. Gareth was badly at fault for both, two of the three goals.

45:07He was playing for England. I saw him about six weeks later and I said, look, sorry, you know, but he went, you did your job. He said, we understand that. He said, well, you know, that's really what you're asking for that understanding we're trying to do our jobs. But we're not perfect and we don't always get the mood right. But I think if you love the game, you've got a much better chance, which is why I said right at the beginning, love of the game is everything, really. You did the FIFA games as well, didn't you? You were on the FIFA games as well. Yeah, yeah. What was it like? 11 years. Sorry, sorry, Kyle.

45:38Yeah. Yes, with Andy Gray, first of all, and then Alan Smith, yeah. Yeah, that was interesting.

45:48Clive Tilsey did some as well. Clive and I did it in completely different ways. And Clive's a fine commentator. He wanted to know everything beforehand, so he went in prepared. And I didn't want to know anything. I wanted to just go in, and there's no right way or no wrong way. We just did it completely differently. They perplexed the producers who weren't sure whether I was coming in or Clive coming in, which way to do it, you know. So I'd just look at it and go, oh, that's a free kick over the wall, do ten versions of that, or even a throw-in. He's thrown it. He's thrown it down the line. It's their throw.

46:20There's three. and it was just like that, ad-libbing your way through it. But when you came out, never felt like after a commentary like I felt after a session on FIFA. Your brain was all over the place, really. I remember you shouted Abel Hernandez's name louder than any other player for some reason. So loud. There you go. That must have been time to go home or something like that.

46:53Ellen, have you got a question? Yeah, when you watch kind of those big moments and you see, I know that a lot of clubs do their own streams nowadays and they have like ex-players and like fans of the club really on there. Do you feel there's any difference between kind of what you were doing? Because for me, I know that in the playoff semifinals there was actually a moment for us from commentary that went viral, like Frankie Francis, who does our commentary, like screaming Ballard and then just screaming into the microphone, not saying any words. Do you find there's kind of a difference between what they do and what you do, or do you think that it's quite similar?

47:34No, I don't. I mean, it's the same principle. I mean, clearly there's a professional edge to it, really, that might be lacking, but maybe not lacking. I mean, it's a great opportunity. I mean, when I started, I got my first job as a commentator in 1974. There were probably 10 football commentators on television in the whole country. So it was a miracle that I got a chance, a total miracle. Now, I talk at universities and things like that and schools. So if you want to do it, you start your own channel. I mean, goodness, it's all there. It's a wonderful opportunity if people want to do it. It's whether they want to do it.

48:12I think they a lot more want to do what Jamie does in terms of not the co-commentary, but sort of opinion pieces because you don't, the detail is something that, I'm amazed, you know, that it's 1974 to, it's my anniversary, 51st anniversary on the 28th of December and I've got a game actually which is really kind of nice for me personally. But I'm amazed in that time not one ex-player has come in and done my job. I played in the Isthmian, there was no National League in those days so the Isthmian League was a very good league in non-league football. I wasn't a very good player, but I managed to get a few games.

48:50And I'm probably, maybe Jerry Harrison, who's just passed away, who played for Altrium. That's the highest level of playing that people in my job has done. I'm staggered in that time that nobody has come to do the play-by-play bit, as the Americans call it. and there's a queue, isn't there, Jamie, for your job. There's lots of ex-players now see it. You've actually blazed the trail, you and Gary, for the players of this generation coming to an end. They want to do what you've done, but they don't want to do what I've done. And I think there must be a reason for that, whether it's not trusting the concentration or is that...

49:34Wages? Undoubtedly. yeah but I mean I'm talking about it doesn't have to have played Premier League football even played you know just under living from the game it's another way to do it and there may be people who are doing it for clubs maybe so I'm not in possession of all the facts but certainly on mainstream broadcasting I think I felt in the 1970s that that was going when I first started that that would that would be the end of the life of certainly a non-league footballer doing it. And the players of great pedigree would come in and see things that I wasn't seeing and be, you know, very, maybe not even need a co-commentator then, you know.

50:26But unless you know somebody, I don't think it has happened. Gareth, you've got one? I just think on that, I think that's fans' fault. Because I think, you know, fans are mad, aren't they? I'll include myself in that and I think if it was an ex-player doing your job you'd be like well hang on he played for them so he doesn't like us or he's biased or whatever and that was kind of well that's cold commentary isn't it really you get that don't you so and I wonder about that we know Jamie on social media has got a bit of a love hate relationship with it and sometimes in the past there's a bit of people and stuff like that something I do too I wonder how much you knew about what fans say about you I know you just said before about someone in the street saying something to you.

51:09Only if I got into trouble, because I've never been on any of the social media. So you've just never been anywhere near it? No, no, because the amount of times people... It just invites... I totally respect the views of things. I absolutely respect. I mean, I've said to her, we can't do the job perfectly, so you know. And the way that society's changed from, you know, when you think what we have now, what there wasn't in 1974 when I started. you know it's a massive change over the period of my career but so i so i totally respect it but i just know um i had a friend when i was coaching at the dartford a couple of years ago we had one of the one of the um members of the staff who's a chelsea fan so i've been a chelsea game and then um 10 days later we end up in the coach's room talking about something he said oh by the way you know the Chelsea fans hate you.

52:02And I went, no, don't actually. You just told me now. Thank you very much. But no, you know that if you can't carry on through it, of course you have to have a thick skin, but you'd much rather be praised than not. That's human nature, isn't it? But it is the way of it. But I'm still, I won't go on X or Twitter or anything. I'll be best. Yeah, it is best. and so I'm just relying on people dropping the odd bombshell into my life no listen I'm not on Sky anymore so I'd probably be a bit calmer now wouldn't it really so but I'm still going and and it's um it's kind that you said what you do and not what you did do you know so you know I'm still doing it really so and I'm very lucky to be able to do that as well Martin, to finish off, I mean, anybody watching this at home wanting to get into, what would be, I know you just said have a goal, you can set your own channel, but what would be the big pieces of advice that you'd maybe sort of pass on?

53:07You mentioned John Motts and passing on some really nice words to you. Is there anything you could pass on to the future commentators? That probably doesn't quite apply anymore. Or I think if you don't speak too much, they go, the microphone's gone down, what's the matter, he's not speaking? You know, which was never the case at the beginning. No, the love for the game, Jamie, is the most important thing. And if you do that, then really you're prepared to concentrate for the game and do some prep. And a lot of young people are. I mean, honestly, mentoring's a too strong a word, but I'm sort of in contact with a lot of people at colleges and even who are still doing normal jobs, nine-to-five jobs, you know, who want to try it.

53:54And that's basically what I say. One, love the game. And if you don't, don't. Just don't do it. If it's just like a hobby, you're wasting your time, really. And two, be prepared to, as I say, give up the time that you need to prep, but also the time with your families and with your 20s. It's bad enough for the players, I mean, to give up all their social lives to be proper players, but as a commentator you really have to to some extent i mean i still try and eat like i was playing the next day rather than commentating early nights and and basically i've been very lucky i don't like alcohols never have liked it so there's never any temptation to to do that i was i was only popular because i would drive people home from the pub you know only one able to do it so um so yeah i it does require a certain amount of dedication to have a long career at it but I think now everything's so instant as you say something could go viral and your career's made I mean I was at a function for content and some of you guys might know about it in Leeds the last week which for the podcast that I do and I was What is that podcast Martin?

55:03It's called The Joy of Football which is what we're talking about really isn't it I do it with a guy called Neil Barnett who's a fine journalist but he's best known in this country he was the pitch announcer at Chelsea for like 25 years and always made a theatrical thing of it. But there's so much, and I learned so much from the young people there. I was by far the oldest. If you added up everyone in the room, I probably didn't come to my age. And so it was an eye-opener and how instant these things are. And technology is there, but you have to really, really, really, really want to do it. I want to ask you about some of the players you've commentated on.

55:45Now, who's the best player you've commented? Who's the most famous player? You almost felt like a privilege to commentate on, maybe in your younger years. I don't know. You've got to commentate on World Cups as well, haven't you? I've been more thrilled with, actually, because when I stopped playing and went to television, I played lots and lots of charity games. I played against Glenn Hoddle when he was playing for Spurs, and then we got a call. We were playing the Spurs staff at their old training ground at Chesson, and the message came through, would you mind if Glenn played in this game as a Sunday morning game because he's supposed to be playing against Bayern Munich on Wednesday and the reserve game he was supposed to play in today has been called off.

56:22So we need him to play. So I saw Glenn Hoddle play properly. I was on the same pitch as him. It was amazing. It was just amazing. So, of course, Glenn's high up there on technical players but just to have that experience. but I love goal scorers and I love, actually because I'm quite tall I love big centre forwards because that's what I was striving to do I love Van Basten who's a particular favourite of mine because he used to work so hard for the team as well he wasn't a glory hunter but he was good enough to score a hat-trick against England Did you commentate on that game? No, I was there though Brian Moore was I worked on that tournament and it was funny because that's their win, isn't it?

57:13That's their one win. They've been in World Cup finals and the goalkeeper was Hans van Brukkelen of Nottingham Forest. So I was watching the semi-final against Germany and they won to get to the final, obviously. And he invited me into, I was just standing when the players came off the pitch and he invited me into the dressing room. And I go, no, no, no, no. It's ridiculous. What am I doing? Oh, no, you're coming. Dragged me into the dressing room. And there's Van Basten and Hullet and Rijkaard and everybody. And I'm looking, who's this so-and-so here? And I said, yeah, I've got to go. Good luck with the final.

57:52Remember, you haven't won it yet, you know? And he went, no, it was Germany. That meant so much to them to beat Germany. And so I think being accepted in those kind of circumstances is, I can't believe it now. It's a pinch you meet at the moment that that sort of thing happened to me. And I find it hard to believe that people see me as part of it. I'm the lucky guy who, I suppose, my dreams didn't come true on the pitch, but in another way. My football life is what I wanted, you know. so even yesterday it was we played Watford and Troy Deeney played in the game when I was coaching at Wokey and Troy was there yesterday we were chatting away and I got a tap on the shoulder and I thought it was Jason Wilcox who was obviously at Manchester United now I thought I haven't seen you since you won the league in 1995 you know 30 years where's those 30 years gone so just being involved Jamie honestly and just you know even being here with you guys it will never stop being special, I promise.

58:55I just want to go through, everyone. Just come to me then about if you could all pick, and it doesn't have to be Martin just because Martin's here, but almost like an iconic commentary that you all remember, or a line, or a word, something that you saw when you were a kid. Full speed ahead, Barcelona is when we won in Turin. It was Clive who did that one. Who was it? Clive. I'll butcher his surname. Yeah, yeah. I love the war cry that you did when G scored against Man City. It was offside, by the way. It was offside, but it was the rasp in the, he's done it! Like, unbelievable. But it was an unbelievable...

59:35Sometimes you see things, as I said, a fraction of a second before Sergio put the ball in the net for that goal. You sort of think... But Martin O 'Neill, I think that I actually said it, Martin O 'Neill was waving them forward, you know, because they knew that if City got the ball back, and they couldn't get up the other end again. So it was all sort of like, this is our chance, and it all fell into place. And what a name to have to get around your tongue, you know. It was a gee whiz moment, wasn't it, really? So, yeah, they did a T-shirt. Actually, my own son doesn't really... You either go like Jamie's son, he end up playing professional football, or Wayne's son, Kai, is doing very well, isn't he?

1:00:17Or Phil Neville's son is a player as well. Or they go the other way, you know. And my son hasn't, he's got no real interest in football now. And he sent off to Sunderland for the shirt, the T-shirt. I was absolutely astonished that he did that. So I don't know where it is. He's 38 now, so I don't think he's wearing it anymore. So that was a special moment. The Aguero goal, it was my dad's ringtone for about five years. And it would just go off anywhere. and we were once on the tube to Chelsea away when I must have been like eight or nine, like the year later, and it's just gone off and all these Chelsea fans are just looking at us like, what is that?

1:00:55My dad's there like, no colours, wear your coat and then he's got Aguero blasting out of his face. They all laughed at him, but you've probably had that story. It's enormously flattering that people think that and I've seen the tattoos and it's up on the wall at the Etihad and it's just, I can't really believe it's me and when I hear it, it obviously still gets played quite a lot. I sort of say, oh, that bloke did all right on that and whoever that bloke is, you know, it's not so inside me that I can't do it again, you know, unless I see a moment like that again with a microphone in my hand, which is pretty unlikely, I think.

1:01:35I swear, I swear. With that Aguero moment, though, like, it was obviously you saying Aguero, but it's the bit afterwards, I swear you'll never see anything like this ever again, so drink it in. That's the bit that I think is the goosebump moment for everybody who watched it on TV and saw it unfolding. And to make that declarative statement, say you will never see anything like this ever again, is that how you felt in the moment? This was a defying moment? Yeah, I mean, I still feel like it, although actually a few years ago now, they played Villa on the last day of the season, and actually it was never quite the same.

1:02:07I checked the timescale because it could have been something like it again. you know so no I think as I say the thing that I'm proudest of is keeping quiet after the Aguero because the next night it was the LMA dinner the managers association dinner and Mark Hughes who's the manager of Queen's Back Range was the opponent who suffered I saw him by complete coincidence I walked in and he was there and I said oh what a day they stayed up so everyone was a winner really and he said it was the noisiest moment in football he'd ever heard. And this is Marquis, Man United, Barcelona, Bayern Munich and international football.

1:02:46The noisiest moment in the football ground he'd ever heard. And if I'd said anything, you can imagine now playing it now, it'd all be sort of, well, what did he say? And so I think of the whole bit of it, I'm glad that I did shut my mouth for that. But really, so... And Niall Quinn did wonderfully well. He never gets a mention. And Tony Mills, who was the match director, who covered it unbelievably. You know, the shot of Joe Hart running around, not knowing where to go to, trying to find somebody to celebrate with or whatever he was doing. And I was on one of the podcasts with Jolien and he was asking me about what I saw.

1:03:28I said, well, how did you see it? And he told his side of the story. So I think everybody, if they ever make a real look back at it, to get everybody to say where they were at that very moment because I do swear you'll never see anything like it again. Yeah, brilliant, Martin. Thank you.

1:03:56Well, that's the end of another episode of The Fan Debate brought to you by Skybet.

1:04:20We'll be right back.