Micky Van de Ven: Spurs’ Season So Far, Ange vs Frank & Toughest Opponents | The Overlap Exclusive

0:17O-F soup Do you know Lake Districts in the north? I was there yesterday, it's like a beautiful part of where we live. Oh, I know, I know. It's nice. Like Cotswolds. You know Cotswolds? Yeah, yeah. It's similar to that in the north. Oh, okay, okay, okay. Everyone good? There's a lot of people in here, isn't there? Yeah, there's a lot of people in here. Gee. Do you want to drink something? Erm, I just have still water. I just have still water.

0:57What do you think? Tell me about your dad and what your dad does. Yeah, it's crazy. Don't mess around there. If he's as quick as you as well, by the way. He isn't, he isn't, he isn't. His mother was quick. Thank you. You're welcome. Are you enjoying England? Are you enjoying the football? Yeah. Premier League is different. It's so inconsistent this season as well. Everyone's beating everybody. This season is crazy. Last season obviously you saw Liverpool was top, but this season, everything can happen. I just don't know what's going on. It's like crazy. And my friend Carragher's taking on the world, isn't he?

1:42Everybody just knew we need to win the trophy. We're 1-0 up and we're going to fucking win this game. That's just what he said. You are like a Rolls-Royce of a defender. You want the best for your son. You can better work in the crime. Sometimes. Similar. Some similarities. I just want to be one of the best centre-backs in the world. I said to him, I snap you. I said, I don't care you're my team-mate. Slot was at final. So you turned down Arna Slot. Yeah. What do you think the World Cup looks like? We want to win it.

2:20So I've come to interview you, but I actually want to hear about your story first. Talk to me about yourself and what you do, because it's fascinating. Yeah, my background. Yes. Oh, yes, yes, yes. I was at the Special Forces and the Dutch police in the early times. And after that, I was working for television and a couple of shows. I did Hunted, I don't know if you know the show, and football with my son. What role are you playing now with Miki? The father role, I hope. I'll be there every week. I want to watch the games, I'm going to the games. I like it very much, to support him. My dad's no longer here but he watched every single game that I played.

3:08Do you look for him before a game sometimes when you walk out? I used to have to see my dad when I walked out. I have the same. So obviously when you have the home games, of course, I know he's there. So I know where my box is, I know where to wave. But the away games, you always, most of the time, after warm-up, you clap before the wave. I'm just looking for my dad. That's exactly the same as me. He's always early. And then when I see him, I'm like, OK, he's there, he's safe, he's in the way, he's in the side of the stadium. And then it's just focus on the game. Yeah, it's interesting that, because I was exactly the same.

3:40My mum and dad used to come to the home games, but my dad would just go to the away games. What influence did your dad have you growing up? When I was younger, of course he had the father role, but he also had the role where he needed to push me forward. I needed to improve as well. When you're younger, you're a difficult kid. You always think you know things better than your dad. You don't know something about football, you don't know how it works. But then obviously, you have the mental part of football. and that's where he pushed me a lot and helped me a lot with because you get some difficult situations when you're younger and at that point he pushed me really forward to keep going.

4:17With what you actually did, am I imagining that you were very strict and quite disciplined with obviously the job that you had? Yeah, but I learned a lot about the mental strength. I had lessons for myself in the operations and working in a team but how I have to behave and how I have to live because it was always on a high level. It was a serious organized crime I fought against. So I had my mentality was very important. So we were talking about it when we were going to drink coffee, we were going to sit, and then I told him stories what happened in my life, in my career, when I was in the forces.

5:00And he took his lessons for that. He did something with it. And some things no, and some things he did. But I was not an instructor, I was just his father who was telling him stories. Were you allowed to know a lot about what your father did or was it secret, the things that you were doing? Were you able to share stuff with... Yeah, later. Later. Not when I was working into that department, but later I told him stories. And what are your early football memories? What's the first thing you remember? When's the first time you realise you're playing football and you think, oh, I enjoy this? To be honest, when I was really young, I really enjoyed playing football.

5:40So every time when we had a break at school when I was young, I was the person who grabbed the ball first and just started playing football. But then, of course, when you get older, you're like, hey, I really enjoy this. And then you know you're also better than the other guys. So you know you have some special talent. I think when you later get on, because when you go to a professional football club, then the first couple of years when you're young, you just see football the same as the guys who play amateur football. Yeah. But then at one point you think like, OK, this is possible to make this my job.

6:13When did you think that? When was the first point where you thought sort of like, I'm sort of higher level? Because you didn't have an elite academy upbringing, did you? Like a lot of the Dutch players, you think they come through this wonderful system of sort of academy. But you never had that, did you? No, so I played for Follendam. That was a lower team in Holland, never played really in the highest league. they play now, but before they didn't. And always when you looked at the Dutch guys, what you said, you have Ajax, AZ, PSV, Feyenoord. These are the leagues where you think, okay, the big talents come from here.

6:43But then when I get older and then you see, sometimes you play also the better games. So when I came in under-19s, because you don't have under-18 in Holland, I don't know if you have the same here, but from the under-17, you need to go straight to the under-19 and you have to play two years there. So then you have the first-year kids and the second-year kids. but most of them the second year kids are playing because they're older, they're better and I always played as a first year kid and at that point I was like okay I think I can do something special and then of course agents are coming up to you like oh this kid has talent, some other scouts from other clubs are coming but then even you talk about Groningen, Pek, Zwolle, like Erivisie teams where you're like oh teams are coming up to me like I can do something and I think that was the point where I was like I think can become something serious.

7:29Were they approaching you at the time? Were these clubs coming forward? They were approaching you and asking you for your opinion on whether they could sign? Yeah, there were a lot of clubs. Besides that, there were a lot of managers who contacted me to work with Miki. But I thought, yeah, we can do it by ourselves. But then there came bigger clubs and then we took a manager. You were proud, but I want to be his father and not his businessman. So that's the track you walk then. It's difficult because you want the best for your son. That's what you want. Yeah, make that right choice. And the football world, how do you call it?

8:11You can better work in the crime. Sometimes. Similar, similar. What's happening here? If I usually come and order to sort out the organised crime unit in football maybe. Yeah, yeah.

8:27When I speak to a lot of defenders, I always think that they start in a more attacking position and then they end up going back to defence. Is that similar for you? Same. So you were a goal scorer? No, I was a striker. A striker. So what happened to you? How did you end up at centre-back? At one point I knew I was growing so fast, I had problems with my knees, I was getting slow and I was like, it didn't really work out and sometimes I just like to snap people, if you know what I mean, just tackle them and you never really come in this position as a striker. So I just walked up to my manager at that point, I said, I think I'm a defender man.

9:09You went to him? Yeah, I went to him, I said I think I'm a defender. And then he was like, I don't know, I said, I think I am. and then he put me left back first game and I played an unbelievable game. I can't remember, it was away at AZ. I played a really good game. Since then I was a defender. Do you like left back? Yeah, because I can be more offensive. That's what I like about left back. I feel more comfortable as centre-back, but as left back I also like, because I can drive the ball forward and I can be more dangerous looking forward. Yeah, I mean, that vision I have of you, I mean, the goal at Old Trafford a couple of seasons ago, now where you just literally drive through and obviously you do on this season.

9:50There aren't many players can do that. Do you think you can go forward more? I mean, I look at you and when you go forward, no one can live with you. Your stride is like unbelievable. Yeah, like the last couple of games I see sometimes when I just start running, people just start kicking me down now. So they just start tackling me straight away. But yeah, I think I can be more dangerous sometimes in these situations. It's not that easy, of course, to just triple past people and just went forward. But yeah, I think I can bring something special in these moments sometimes. I just think back to my early experiences of Dutch teams that I played against and Danny Blind stepping into midfield and Ronald Koeman stepping into midfield.

10:29I actually was a substitute against Barcelona in 94 when Ronald Koeman played. And I think of Dutch centre-backs sort of stepping forward into midfield. What is it about Dutch defenders that have this ability? I mean, obviously Van Dijk can do it as well. What is it about the Dutch mentality? Because an English player is not as comfortable. I think it's just the Dutch football when you're younger, you just learn this. Especially at Ajax, AZ, PSV, Feyenoord. You see often that they play centre-backs when they're younger, they just play them in midfield. So they can just learn how to play with the ball.

11:00And then when they go back, they see the situation different than other centre-backs. And then you just dribble in. I think it's typically just the Dutch school, what you learn when you're younger. And as Dutch guys just used to dribble with the ball, used to stay calm in the situation. I think that's it because in Holland sometimes it doesn't really matter about the result when you're younger It's just more about how you play the games as a team and performance. Yeah, exactly And that's also sometimes what happens in all I didn't like it because I just want to win But sometimes they're like no, it doesn't matter.

11:29We played it. We played an unbelievable game We can learn from this. I said yeah, cheers zero points, but we can learn yeah When I think of you playing and obviously I think of when Ange first joined and I think of you playing out from the back both of you being there. So much expectation. Do you like that style of play? Are you someone who likes to play sort of what would be, not isolated, but sort of very much one-on-one? Or would you prefer to be a bit more solid? I mean, obviously with Thomas Frank, it's a bit more rigid. Versus Ange, it was so, I mean, it was like crazy at times. I was looking at it thinking, oh, I could not play in that team.

12:01I'd be embarrassed every week. So they're both really different. Ange is really offensive football, what you said. It's just man v man also. Even when we had the ball sometimes, we were playing forward. In the back sometimes we were a bit open and then sometimes it was just me who needed to recover with my pace, like every position. And Guti was standing next to me who needed to recover a lot because the fullbacks were just high. I like the offensive layer of football, but I also like what we have with Thomas now, that we have more secure in the back because we're not really getting exposed in some situations.

12:39So I really like the offensive football, but I don't like to be exposed every game on the counter-attack or this. Sorry Gary, can we just sneeze to do with your mic? We'll just start everything all over again. Where is the mic? If you stand up for me, say. Are you taking the piss out of me, Steve? No, not. It's here, yeah. Stand up, zip down.

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13:51Just let me come down the tracks. There you go. Right. Great, thank you. Take me back to those sort of the early days at Tottenham when you're playing as you are. I think you had a really good start obviously and you're sort of basically sort of playing such great football and then when it starts to turn and I'm going to throw it forward to the Europa Cup final eventually where it's completely different. Is there something out there on the pitch that you feel like how can we change this you need to change it or is it a case if you can't change it because the system is so set by the manager? At the beginning of the season everything was new so there was no team was used to play against our system at that point so we were playing unbelievable football and I think like then the injuries came and some suspension came and I think that's that changed a bit of things but before we were flying so even we had like now compress us we will play out of it no worries but then at one point of course like the managers these days they analyze everything they have like four five six people around them to analyze every game of of the opponent and at that point people knew what we were doing and then sometimes we didn't really have a plan B and then we're just getting exposed like we didn't really have solutions to go out and then it was dropping off a bit I would say and then at one point also we spoke with the manager with some players which is like okay sometimes we need to change some things because we're just getting too exposed sometimes and of course we want we knew we were like we won the Europa League but we knew we're like okay this is a big opportunity for us to to get some silverware to Tottenham but what we all wanted but we need to change some things sometimes because in games where we're one or up we can't keep playing our football which sometimes we need to just sit back just make sure that no one comes through us and i think that helped us at the end of course to win the europa league what what what point did you go and see the manager what who was it you and how many other players um so i was me and guti were we're playing only the europa league games uh last season because the premier league games he kept us out he arrested us because he he was he just wanted to win the europa league and then at one point we just walked up to the Gaffer and we just said like okay Gaffer we need to change some things and we need to play more defensive sometimes and we we just need to make sure we win those games even we play away at Frankfurt with one up and we can't keep attacking we just need to come back and just have a low block sometimes and just make sure we get the three points and just make sure we go to the next round and then we sit with him and he was like okay I agree with you with these things these things these things and he's like but you guys I expect you two guys to sort this on the pitch, just make sure that this is our building, that everybody knows and speak with everyone on the pitch.

16:31So he gave you the responsibility to bring people deep so your full backs may be back in line with you and not go forward as much? Exactly, he said just to us, he's like, okay, of course in the meetings he said, okay, we're going to change some things sometimes in different situations in the games and then he just said to me and Guti personally, like, okay, you guys just make sure that the guys listen to you, you guys have a reputation in the team, everybody respects you guys, know how important you guys are for us. So just make sure the guys just follow what you say on the pitch. Then Kutina will just scream at everyone.

17:01Why didn't that happen soon? Because I loved Angie's football. When you're talking about that football that you played before in that first few months, I thought it was some of the best football I've seen. It was electric. I loved doing Tottenham games. And then obviously it started to be a little bit like the results were a little bit... Why didn't... Wasn't that little bit of caution just brought in a little bit early so that Angie could have sort of... Before the European... Europa Cup final, why was that a year before? Because there was a big run of defeats and losses up to that. I think also a lot of key players from the team were missing, were suspended or were injured at that point.

17:36That's also, of course, you know, it's a big thing if you miss some key players who... Do you think the style contributed to the injuries, the demands upon the players physically just to keep running and keep... Because running you have to do as a centre-back in that system was huge. Yeah, so we pressed forward like for 90 minutes. we were pressing, pressing, pressing. And of course, you ask a lot from your body if you play every three days because we played Europe as well. But yeah, sometimes it's just like at that point when the results were getting down, Enge was really focused on his system.

18:07So he really believed in his system. Until the day of today, I still believe in his system because I think we played some unbelievable football. So the system works. It works. But then at some points, I think we needed to adapt a bit more than we didn't do at that point. Let's get to that Europa League final, because you definitely did adapt, you changed before that game, you were a lot more solid I felt in that game. Was that something you obviously talked about, obviously you have talked about it. Yeah, we spoke about it with Angel as well, of course before the final, everybody just knew we need to win the trophy, it doesn't matter how we're going to do it, today we just need to make sure we're going to stand with that silverware at the end of the whistle from the referee.

18:51And even then, Enz said at the beginning we just needed to play from the back and just do what we always do. But then when we came to the point where it was half time and we were one or up, Enz just said like, okay boys, we keep pressing but sometimes when it doesn't work out just drop back and just make sure that we lock it back door and then make sure they don't come through. And that was the point where I looked at him and I was like, yeah. Was that a new instruction? Yeah, because he was never really like this, like sit back and just make sure we win the game but at that point he was like we're 1-0 up and we're gonna fucking win this game that's just what he said and everyone was like yeah and and he always like before every game every meeting he just said he's standing there in front of the group and every you know this this this trainer who can get into your like your feelings like every time when he spoke to us we were like you believe him yeah we're gonna smoke everyone yeah Before every game we walked out and were like, we're going to smoke you guys.

19:50And then obviously when the results are getting down a bit, it's so difficult to come out of the momentum where you're in negative momentum. And at that point, the momentum where we get out of it again were the Europa League games. Because in the Premier League we kept struggling, but we knew at one point we were safe. We couldn't get relegated anymore, but we knew we were going to win the Europa League and that was our main focus. So every time on momentum, of course we want to win the Premier League games, but you see sometimes where Ange was playing the subs, he didn't play his starters. So everybody knew at that point our focus was the Europa League.

20:26Obviously we're watching this from afar, we don't know what's happening, but obviously we think we know what's happening by what we see on the pitch. And it feels like when we were watching Tottenham that Ange was continuing to stay with his same system, the Plan A, and he wasn't changing. but then obviously for the Europa League he would slightly adapt because he wanted to get victories in that game. It just seems crazy because I thought he was the perfect manager for Tottenham. If you said to me what's the perfect Tottenham manager look like, I would say Hans Postikoglu because of his style of play, the fact he's on the front foot, but just a bit more balance.

20:56Could that not have saved that discussion that you've had with him before the Europa Cup final to sit back a little bit and change? Is that a few months before the final or a week before the final? No, that was when we get further in the Europa League. Sometimes we sat down with him and said, OK, we need to adapt sometimes, we need to change some things. And that was not only with him, that was also with his assistant, with other coaches. I think even if he could, what you say, he was a really good manager. I still really like him till the day of today. And I don't know how everything went backstage that he won the Europa League and got sacked afterwards.

21:29I have no clue how that... Were you expecting that or not? No, no, no. I didn't expect it. Of course you see a lot of rumours out there because everybody was on Eng, like media. You saw everything popping up on your phone. There was not a day where I just scrolled through my phone and I saw nothing about Algeffa. It's always something about him. But yeah, it was just strange how everything went afterwards. Of course when you think, he's the manager that won silverware to Tottenham. Then afterwards when he got sacked, I just sent a text to my dad, to my friends. I'm like, I never expected this.

22:03Did you text Ange as well? Yeah, yeah. And say, just sorry or just all the best in the future? Yeah, I just told him like all the best in the future. I said, like, I didn't say it was a strange decision of the club, I just said like I never expected this to happen and I just thanked him for the two years I had with him because I had a good relationship with him, I was close with him and he was also the manager that brought me to Tottenham and I had my first conversation with him at Tottenham and when I was three days there, he's just like, nah, you play. Take me back a little bit and I'll come back to you winning the Europa League.

22:35It's a painful one for me, but I will come back there. In 2021 you go to Wolfsburg. They buy you for how much? 3 million? 3.5 million. How cheap is that for you? How has that happened only like four years ago? At that point it was the record transfer from the second league in Holland ever. So I think the record transfer was 2 million. and then it was me with 3.5 so it was a lot already for Holland terms did they ever sell on as well? yeah they had so they got some more money, that's good I like that yeah so for Wallsru it was cheap if you look afterwards because they sold me I think for 35 million pounds to Tottenham so for Wallsru it was unbelievable business but yeah at that point I went for 3.5 million and it was strange for me at that point like hey Club Bayern for 3.5 million.

23:33And did you feel the pressure of that 3.5 million at that point? Did you feel any pressure when you went to Wolfsburg or did you just feel, no, this is the moment to really step up? Because it was 3.5 million, I was the most expensive player. People are always going to talk things about, said things like, I never played in Holland, so he's never going to make it over there. Like this pressure, like, oh, way too expensive for this guy. Is this guy worth 3.5? Why can't you put it? Because of the physicality of the German league? goal? What were they saying at that time? Or do you feel they were saying?

24:01So people in Holland always say you need to play in the Dutch League before you go to there. And I only played in the second division. I never played in the Eredivisie. So then people don't really know you because you never played in the highest league. So then at that point it's like, no, too big. It's going to be on the bench. Why Wolfsburg at that time? Were the Dutch clubs in for you? Yeah. Which ones? PSV, AZ and Feyenoord. They were there at the final day. AZ went off because it was getting too expensive. But at the last, like literally the deadline day, it was Wolfsburg, PSV and Feyenoord.

24:35And before it was also Marseille from France. You must have been tempted to go PSV, Feyenoord and stay in the Dutch league and play at those big clubs. What made you make that decision to go to Wolfsburg? So with Wolfsburg, I had long courses. The summer before Wolfsburg was there already, but I knew I was not going to leave. but they were there already and I had a really tough period to leave in Volendam. So a lot of things happened and Volsruz just sticked behind me at that point. And it's like, no, we just want to bring you to us. He's like, we think you're an unbelievable talent. We think you can bring a lot to our team.

25:11Of course, you need some time. So you need time to adapt to the league, to the players, to everything. But we have trust in you. And to be honest, I was really tempted to go to the final as well. PSV, they had three centre-backs at that point. So I said to my dad, what am I going to do there? You wanted to guarantee to play? I just wanted to make sure that I would get my chance. And of course every club tells you a beautiful story where you think, this is the best step for me, this is the best step for me. But with PSV I just didn't really have the feeling that I was getting my opportunity because they had so many left centre-backs.

25:44Feyenoord I really had a good feeling to be honest. I was like, okay, so to be honest at one point it was on the edge of Feyenoord and Wolves stuck with me the whole period and they kept trusting me for the whole period. So at that point I was just like, no, I think this is the right step to do it. And how did you find the German league? Good. It's tough. It's really physical. So I would say it's a good step to go from Germany to England because in Germany they're physical as well. The intensity is not as high as in the Premier League, but the physicality is massive. Physicality of the players, the set pieces, the direct balls forward.

26:21That's it, sometimes you just play a team and sometimes you play teams that just play one-three-one on the whole pitch. So yeah, this is where you just learn, like I played against strikers sometimes, like, massive. It's not even that with the ball they were the best, but physicality, you're just like, oi. You're so mature when you speak, was it you that made that decision or was it a joint decision when you went obviously to Wolfsburg when you got Feyenoord and Wolfsburg there and you're thinking that's a big call to have to make I know you obviously said the loyalty of Wolfsburg and it looks like you made the right decision because I agree with you to go to the German league and experience that but what was that was it your final decision?

27:00So it was me, my dad obviously he was helping me a lot with it and Mino, Raiola so it was us three but at that point of deadline day it was the most chaotic day I've ever had in my life but my dad was in another country because he had some television, I don't know how to say it, but he was for television. Come on, Davé, you're in your own filming. But we never knew, we never knew that it was going to come to that point of deadline day. And he was there and we was basically just like, okay, then Van Bommel, he was at, also he called me, Slot was at Feyenoord. So you turned down on a Slot. Yeah, and then at PSV it was Roger Smith.

27:39Yeah. So it was just like calling up and forward, like, okay. and then he called and then i hang up the phone called to mino and my dad i'm like ah he said this it is ah wait wait the other gaffer calls and the other gaffer picked up and he told me this this this then was the the technical director so it kept continuous i'm just calling the whole day and then it came to the point because in germany the deadline window closed earlier okay so there was one point mino said to me like okay mickey you have to make a decision now and then i said get the car, I'm going to Germany. And then at that point, everything needed to be sorted because we only had ten minutes left.

28:16So the office of Rayola, Giuliana is her name, she needed to sort everything, like, boom, in ten minutes' time. Like, boom, boom, boom, get it all sorted. And I think on the dot, it was done. I feel like I've just experienced Fabrizio Romano's life every time. This idea of this chaos going on. No, no, just slow down, please. I think that would panic me a little bit, thinking about how I like things structured, but it feels like it was a bit of a rollercoaster, but in the end you get to the right decision. Yeah, at the end I think I made the right decision, yeah. And talk to me about what point when you're in Wolfsburg do you feel like, okay, there's clubs coming in for me now, there's interest, there's things happening?

28:56Because when I watch you, and this can sometimes get used too often, but there aren't many players, I would say this about you, who are like a Rolls-Royce of a defender. When you defend, either, to be fair, going back to defend or when you run forward, there are very few players in the world that can do what you can do, going back to 20, 30 years. So at what point do you think, OK, there are clubs coming in for me that are a different level than Wolfsburg even, they're a big club? Yeah, of course, when you go to Wolfsburg at that point, you're like, oh, I make a massive step. And the first year, I think I played only five games.

29:28Frustrating? I hated it. I hate being on the bench. I played with two or three Dutch players to be fair and you couldn't leave them out without there being a little bit of frustration. No, no, no, I hated it. Of course at the beginning I was like, okay, it's normal because I need to get used to everything and I need to adapt a bit. But the longer you get on, I didn't really have the best relationship with the Gaffer over there. What also I think didn't really help at that point because I was getting left out of the squad. So were you going knocking on his door regularly? Yeah, so at one point I had a meeting with him.

30:07It was not the best meeting I had with him, to be honest. In what way? I just said what I thought at that point, but I never played. So it was maybe not the most clever thing to do, but I just said what I was thinking at that point. I disagree. I mean, look, I wouldn't have done that, but I don't think that's a good thing for me not to have done that. I think that I admire players now that are relatively young and they're willing to stand up for themselves and go and talk to a manager in an up-front way. I actually look at it very differently. So I wouldn't beat yourself up about it being right, unless you were abusive to him or you were having a go.

30:37No, no, no. But what would you have said to him that would have been... What would you have said? So I didn't agree with that I didn't got minutes. So he literally said to me, like, OK, you need to get some experience. And I said to him, like, experience? I said, I can get experience in training. I said, I need to play games to get experience. And I said, you don't play me. So how am I going to get experience? And then at that point he was like, yeah, yeah, but I mean, like in training, sometimes you need to do better. I said, yeah, but if you leave me out of the squad, obviously in training, sometimes you're going to be like, yeah, but it doesn't matter what I'm doing.

31:12Like, you want me to score six bicycle kicks to get into the squad. So I was just not getting into it. And I just feel like, and then at that point, Vols was doing really bad. So I also said to him, like, yeah, we can do worse at this point. That's what we're doing because we're 15. That didn't go down well. That was the line, maybe just a little bit too fast. Everything was great up until that point. At that point, it was not the most clever thing. And then the first games after that, I didn't even have to do warm-up anymore. So I was just chilling. I was on the bench, but I didn't need to do warm-up.

31:44But he was never putting you on. No, no, no. And then at one point, I came on. Because he gave me my debut, though. So at the beginning, he gave me my debut. I came in and I did unbelievable. And then after that was the point where he didn't play me anymore. So I was a bit confused. Like, okay, I come in, I do well. And I just played three games in a row and I did unbelievable. I played good games and everything and he's like, yeah, yeah. And then afterwards, our relationship was getting better a bit because he said, like, I made a mistake of I could play you more often. So he also saw that he was wrong at the beginning and I also said to him, like, okay, I was maybe a bit too extreme to you in the conversation we had earlier this season.

32:20Were you a club signing or were you a his signing? Did you get that feeling? No, I was club signing. You saw you were a club signing. And that's what happens in Germany, don't they? the club signed the players and the coach sometimes maybe... But it was first Fomboehm was there and Fomboehm got sacked and then the new manager came in. So I didn't know him before I signed for Wolfsburg. But then afterwards the relationship was better and then the last game of the season he got sacked. And then Kovac came in from Dortmund and my relationship with him from the beginning was good but not good. What does that mean?

32:55So I was... Half full. Half full. Half full. Glass half empty, glass half full. So, Tumors, my relationship is still really good with him, but if there was someone he needed to get the team motivated to get on, it was always me. He would come at you? Yeah, he was coming at me in front of the group. That was his relationship we had, but I played every game that season. We had 35 games, I played 34 and I was one suspended. So my relationship was really good with him because he said, Miki, you're a really good player, I just want you here and you're going to play for me this season, you're going to be a really important player.

33:35And also then sometimes when we had a bad game and in the meeting, then boom, he saw me. In training he saw me, we were playing 6v6 and then my team was losing, he pointed at me and said, Miki, your team is losing, but there are five more players, why are you going to be on me now? Was that because he thought you could take it and you had the personality to take it? Yeah, I think that's why, because he knew I could handle it. And I think maybe he knew that sometimes I needed it as well. Do you respond to a manager who is very direct? Yeah, I'm OK with that. So sometimes, of course, I said something back.

34:08Sometimes I just made a joke about it. I didn't really care. But sometimes I just left it because I knew, OK, he's right now. So I also had this self-reflection that I knew, yeah, he's right at that point. I can't say something back. So that was a good relationship. I wasn't going to go down the Dutch route today, to be fair, but when I think of the players that I played with, you have such an understanding of the game growing up. I spoke to Jordi Cruyff last week, I spoke to Ruud Van Nistelrooy a few weeks ago, and the understanding of the game from the Dutch players, I think is far greater tactically than that of other countries sometimes.

34:40I don't know what it is about your mindset, you produce great coaches, and then you obviously have sort of... And so you don't sit back and watch something that I think is not quite right technically. you speak up you're willing to speak up and you're similar I didn't know whether you would be similar to some of the Dutch players I played but you seem to be far more of a leader than I expected you to be when I obviously watched you on the pitch you're obviously you're getting bigger all the time but your vocal understanding of things I think is really high do you feel like you're going on a road towards yeah like last season with Ench I had it and this season with Thomas I have it as well I'm now the the first captain but the first year when I joined Spurs then, because it was a big club and I was like okay maybe I need to hold back a bit.

35:25I was young so I didn't really dare to speak so I was a bit scared of what people would think if I would speak up and they just kept pushing me at that point like the Gaffa, the assistants, everybody was like no Mick you need to speak up now because you're an important player for us and people respect you because how you behave on the pitch and how you play on the pitch and I think that was a process for me as well to just like grow into it and maybe this also helped with my injury because when I got injured then you see everything from the sideline so then you think like okay maybe in this situation I can help different when I'm playing maybe in this I need to speak up and when I came back from injury I was like okay no I just need to do it because nothing can happen.

36:05I think if it's natural inside you should definitely do it and particularly as a defender there's nothing worse I think than a quiet defender. Yeah. You see everything don't you you've got a good picture of the game and you need to give information to people in front of you. Yeah, for sure. For sure. So, you're at Wolfsburg and what happens? Clubs start to come in for you, you start to get, obviously, I mean, 3 million up to 35 million, it's a huge increase in value. What's the moment where you start to think, okay, life beyond Wolfsburg could happen? I think that somewhere after I played a really good season for Wolfsburg, clubs are starting to come and then you heard about Tottenham coming, some other clubs are coming and then at one point you just know, like, okay, Spurs is being really serious now, they just want to pay the money and just want to make sure you come to Tottenham and at that point you were like, oh, a massive club is coming, Premier League was always the league I wanted to play in, so at that point I was like, nah, I think this is the right time to make this step.

36:59Who's the first person that calls you from Tottenham? I think it was Daniel. Daniel Levy. You spoke to Daniel, yeah? What was Daniel's message to you at that point? Obviously Daniel's left now. I think at that point it was just like, the first person I saw live was Eng. So I had the first conversation with Ensch because of course about the phone you say okay we want to bring you here but I just also want to know like okay what's what is Tottenham doing right now and new Gaffer come in what what does he want to bring to the club the first conversation was really good already and what for me the most important part at this point was Ensch said to me like yeah you're gonna play you're gonna be a starter for my team he's like of course you need to do well because if you make five mistakes, yeah, of course I'm going to take you out.

37:45He said, but if you just do what you needed to do, you want to be a starter for my team. And for me that was the most important part at that point. Just thinking about it, when you come to Tottenham, is the message from Tottenham trophies, they want trophies? I'm always thinking, what do they say? Because obviously Tottenham hadn't won trophies before you come. What is the message on the way in about their ambition? Is it that they want to be the very top club in the league? No, that was Ench's ambition. Ench's ambition? Yeah. Ench just came to Tottenham. And of course, what he always said in the media, he's like, I'll come in to win trophies.

38:19Every trophy we play for, I want to win. And he's like, I'm going to make sure we're going to do it at Tottenham. And I said, I want you to be part of it. So, of course, Daniel speaks about how he looked at the club and he had a really good vision as well. He had the best for the club, like the best facilities. The stadium was unbelievable. and he won the best for his players. Then Enge was the one who really said to me, like, nah, we're going to win silverware and I'm going to make sure that's going to happen to this club. And at that point I was like, hey, I like this. And it pays off. You win a trophy.

38:49How was that? Yeah, it was unbelievable. It was the best experience of my life, yeah, for sure. And the feeling, obviously, it was a special... Look, I'm a Manchester United fan. It was a game, really, that meant so much to both clubs. We were both in similar positions, really. both of our difficult seasons and obviously I was watching it at home and thinking oh my goodness it was a disaster for United you were not there? no I decided not to go I had a feeling I had a feeling what might happen you don't know but I just had a feeling and I didn't really want to be in a stadium where I thought that that could happen and I just decided not to go a couple of days before did you want me to be there?

39:29you had me to feel the pain completely but the fans that night Were they the people you were most happy for? Yeah, and to be honest also for the whole staff and squad, because we suffered that season a lot, from media, from ourselves. You know how it is to be in a club that's not playing really well. Tottenham do get criticised a lot for being not winning a trophy, for being flaky, the old sort of characteristic traits of Spurs. What do you make of that? someone like yourself who's ambitious, who obviously wants to fight for every trophy, who wants to obviously win everything in the game. What do you make of the angle that basically we come at sometimes?

40:12I've done it myself with Spurs. Yeah. When I joined Tottenham, I knew that was going to come because my best friend is a Liverpool fan. So he was on me straight. He said, ah, you're going to join Tottenham, but you're never going to win a trophy. And I said to him straight away, cheers, mate. But at that point, I said to him like, nah, I'm going to change it. I'm going to be part of it that changed the philosophy of Spurs. And he's like, yeah, that's what everyone says. And I was like, nah, I'm going to make sure it's going to happen. And to be honest, he was there at the final and he was so happy for me as well that we won the trophy.

40:46But I knew it was going to happen when I joined Spurs because they make so many memes about Spurs. It's unbelievable. To be honest, last season, I have to say, I don't like it when, say, Tottenham don't win a trophy or Newcastle don't win a trophy and Crystal Palace. So last year, Crystal Palace won a trophy, Newcastle, Tottenham. I don't think it's good for the competitiveness of the game. So actually, if it was any team that was going to beat United that night, Tottenham would have been one of them, I have to say, just because of that. I just feel quite strongly that the big clubs... When I was growing up, Tottenham were here.

41:16Tottenham was one of the big five clubs in the country and still is now. Where are Tottenham now? Obviously, Andrew's left and Thomas Frank has come in. It's been a little bit of a rollercoaster at the start of this season. Where are you at now currently with where the team are at in its development? Of course, the new Gaffer came in, so he has his own way of playing, his own thoughts about the game and everything. How is it different? Just explain to us in training terms, in what you do every day, how it's different. So of course, when he just came in pre-season, it's just everything about his system, because you're going to need to play a totally different system compared to ENG's system.

41:48But now it's also like a lot of walkthroughs, like a lot of technical stuff where we need to be like, okay, before every game we do some technical work about the opponent. Meetings and everything is the same as it was with Ench. Just think about the opponent. Does Bleep need to go out or not? It's downstairs, the dryer, the washing machine. Do I have to put it out or do I have to put it out? The washing machine is okay. Shall I put it here? That would be great, yeah. I've heard it for 50 minutes. I just heard it from a time.

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42:59While he goes and sorts the washing machine out, you can carry on. Go on, let's carry on going for it. So, yeah, it's different, of course, like, the way of play, how Ench thinks about football and how Frank, of course, thinks about football. So what I said, the meetings and everything are basically the same, but it's a lot of walks what we're doing now with Thomas. Walk through in what way? Almost like the sort of shape of the team. Yeah, because you play so many games, so, you know, as well, You can't really train sometimes with players. So then we just go out and we just walk through everything.

43:30I think a lot of Italian teams are like Italian style, I would say. Talk to me about your goals. I was at Everton, obviously, the game where you score. You're obviously scoring goals regularly now. Is that something you've thought about? Of course you want to score goals for a defender because it's always nice to score a goal. But when Frank came in, and I knew he's working with Andreas, he's a set pieces and we're doing set pieces like regularly because you see the game has changed like a lot of things are set pieces now throw-ins corners do you like it yeah i like it because it's not to be honest it it changed the game like it changed the way of why is it coming this why have the throw-ins come back in i can't put my sort of finger on it i think it's like sometimes players just you have some mad place like the guy from from benford kevin danso and team they throw the ball so far it's basically a corner and you know how how much of a threat the corner is so i think that's just why like set piece managers like hey this can bring some danger so just let's do it and then we just keep trading on it and then in training you see as well like hey we create some opportunities out of it and i think that's how we just come in now some teams they just they're more happy when they get a throw in and they get the ball straight away and Thomas Frank, has he demanded from you more goals?

44:47Not really, to be honest, but when the new manager, when he came in and the set piece in, he's like, you're going to score some goals this year, you're going to be a threat for us. And I said to him, like... Did you believe him? Yeah, at the beginning you're like, whoa, whoa, like I'm a defender. What are you doing differently when you're in the area? I think in set pieces now, because we trained on it like so much, I just know my role and I know I can bring some danger. Also, what you saw with the goal, I scored against Everton two times. they come in the same position and score the same goal.

45:17With West Ham, I think it was a set piece and we stayed forward a bit because we knew there was a second moment coming to stay there and score the goal. So it's a situation where he also said, no, just stay in the box at the moment where the ball comes out because you can be a threat for us. Where are you in your development in your career? Where are you going? What do you want to be? What does three, five years look like for you? Because you look massively ambitious. I just want to be one of the best centre-backs in the world. Maybe the best. That's just my ambition. The level that you're at now is high.

45:51What does that extra few percent that you can get out of yourself look like? What are the bits that you think, that's when I know I'll be the best centre-back with them? What do you need to improve on? I think I can speak even more on the pitch, be even more organised, helping my teammates in some different situations, reading some moments, So seeing some moments where I can maybe do this better, maybe this better. I think I can sometimes bring more with the ball, like in the games, like passing between the lines, this type of thing. But it's just small things where I think need to develop every time over and over again.

46:26And I think with experience, it's getting better and better with the years, hopefully. I just want to talk to you about Holland. How many defenders have Holland got? Honestly, when I grew up playing against Holland, it used to be centre-forwards, wingers, and now there is quite a shortage of these players. And all of a sudden you've got so many centre-backs, so many full-backs, it's incredible. It's crazy, a lot of players also play in England now at this point. But yeah, if you look at the defenders we have with Nathan from City, with Ake, with Van Dijk, with Van Hecke, with Timber that even plays right back, but it's doing unbelievable.

47:03Matthijs who's doing really good at United now. and then even you got other centre-backs, Sven, Bodman from Newcastle, so we have a lot of good centre-backs and even centre-backs who are still playing in other leagues as well. How has that happened? I don't know. How has that happened? I don't know. I have no clue, I have no clue. Serious, zero clue. Just out of nowhere all the centre-backs are coming through. The reason I asked that is because obviously Dutch players have been so influenced by the forward players historically, Johan Cruyff, Van Basten, Hullet, all these players that are incredible players.

47:41Overmars, Ian Robin, just wonderful wingers. All of a sudden there's such an amazing amount of defenders. Just talk about your relationship with Virgil van Dijk. He plays left side for Holland and you play left back. What's that like? It's a good relationship. I speak with him on the pitch a lot and off the pitch. I also speak with him and I think everybody can see he's an unbelievable defender. It's always good to play next to him because you know what you can trust him and you know what he can do for you and what he can bring into the game. So I have a good relationship with him. And what do you think the World Cup looks like for Holland?

48:18We want to win it, obviously. I know you want to win it. We know it's going to be tough because there are a lot of good countries and World Cups are just different. It can be one game and you can be on a plane back home. Is it a dream? Are you looking forward to it so much? Yeah, because I've never played a World Cup in my life before. And Guti next to me has won a World Cup and he keeps speaking about me every time. He keeps mentioning it to you. Yeah, because they knocked out Holland in the World Cup and I was not there. It was incredible that game, eh? Yeah, it was an unbelievable game. Was it Begore scored the goal where, the free kick?

48:55Yeah, it was an unbelievable game. I was watching it at home. But yeah, I still played in Walshburg, so I didn't know Guti at that point. But now we just speak to each other every time over and over. And every time I just said to him, like, he says to me and I said to him, I said, if you dribble up with the ball and you come one for one with me, I said to him, I snap you. I said, I don't care, you're my teammate. And he said, all the way around, he said, if you start dribbling like you normally do, and you come in my position, like, it doesn't matter for me. Like, boom, I just kill you. I can assure you he will.

49:24Yeah, I know. He smashes most things that come near him, to be fair. Yeah, so he just keeps talking about this the whole time. I said to him, yeah, you were lucky I was not there because I will kill you. What's your relationship like with him? Obviously, on the pitch, we can see it. What's it like off the pitch? No, it's good. I have a really good relationship with him. He's just like, yeah, he feels like a brother to me. Like also off the pitch, on the pitch, you can see like we back up each other every time. But off the pitch, it's exactly the same. It's an incredible back four. I always think when Tottenham's back four is fit and it's fully fit, it's got the potential to be one of the best back fours in the world.

49:56Do you feel the same thing? Yeah, we have an unbelievable back four. Pedro is also playing, doing well. Destiny, Jed who's doing really well, and you have Ben. That brings a lot of experience also to us as a back four with everything he did. Radu just now comes back from his ACL. Kevin, every time he needs to come in, he's doing unbelievable. So yeah, we have a really good back four that can bring a lot, especially when you say when everyone is fit. What's the end of this season look like? What would be success for you in terms of, obviously, forget the World Cup, we know you want to win it, but for Spurs, where would that look like at the end of the season?

50:32I think we just want to be top five of the Champions League this year, or top four? I think top five should be OK. So that's what we want, to just become the top five and just make sure we play Champions League football next year again. Why is the Premier League so crazy? What's happened? I mean, you're part of it at the moment. Every team I watch is like, it's a crazy game, you don't know what's going to happen. I think every team is at this point, it's just so good. Every game you need to play away, even at home. It's tough. Yeah, if you're 90 % before the game, you're basically going to lose it or you have a draw.

51:06It's just everyone can beat everyone. It's crazy how it's going now. At the beginning, Villa, I think before the last national break, you were like, Villa, they're 14th and now second, three points behind Arsenal. So it's crazy how close everything is with each other. But I think now we're getting to the point. I said it before already, but I think now we're getting like the December, January is where the gaps are going. So I think this is now where you just need to make sure you get the points. What do you think of the Christmas period? Because obviously in Germany they have the break, don't they?

51:36What do you think of it now? Have you settled into it? You like it or you think we're crazy over here doing this? No, to be honest, I like it because Boxing Day is so massive. Everybody knows Boxing Day in England is a big thing. so it's famous all around the world. For us, it's more difficult because Christmas is difficult, but we play the 1st of January, so what are you going to do with New Year's? You can do something. Because you need to play the 1st, so you need to be fit, you need to be sharp. But still, I like it. Just keep continuous. I think also it's good to have a break sometimes. Is there too much?

52:11I mean, the fixtures now seem to just continue all the way through. Is it too much, do you think? Yeah, I think it's too much sometimes. I think so as well. It feels like it's just no end. Exactly. Now the next two weeks we play once a week. No, not once a week, but you know, we don't have a midweek game. And it feels strange. Like you can just literally like rest a bit. You get some days off so you can chill a bit, but otherwise just continuous. My friends said to me as well, you have a game again. Like every time. And then you need to travel, then you need to go there. So I think sometimes it's too much.

52:45Who's been your toughest opponent in the last two years in the Premier League? Every game I watch, I always look at it and think, if I was right back today, I wouldn't have an easy game. I think when I played, there were some times where games maybe have been a bit more easy. Every time I see a player play on the left wing now, they're always quick, they're always direct, they've always got good quality. That's every week, but who would be the player that you think, I wasn't expecting that, he caught me out? So the game we played against Newcastle when we lost and when the game I slipped as well, but this game Isak was a different level.

53:18So at this point I was like, he's a top-class player. I knew he was top-class but this game I was like... Excellent. Well just his sharpness in terms of the way in which he sort of moves or his intelligence? Yeah, he's just like he can run in behind, he can come into the ball and technical is also really good with the ball. He's fast, he has a top finish, so at that point he was just literally everywhere. Well, that's brilliant and it's been great to speak to you. You are a class act. Thank you. Well done to you. Thank you so much. Brilliant.