Mike Dean: Refereeing Concerns, Big Manager Battles & That Aguero Goal! | The Overlap Fan Debate

0:28I think you've tried to intimidate referees more than any other player. Well... You're a tram, mate, I think. Yeah, he says he is. I am. Always have been, pal.

0:41Hello and welcome back to the Fan Debate brought to you by Skybet. Wayne Rooney returns once again alongside our loyal fans, but this week our special guest is Mike Dean, ex-Premier League referee, and more importantly, Tramier Rovers supporter. Yes. Mike, massive welcome to the show. agreed to have you with us, but I just want to start straight away. Are you allowed to boo? Is anybody... Yeah, oh yeah, we'll get to that. Anyone got a story to tell about Mike watching him live, a decision? Can anyone remember... The advantage for Tottenham against Aston Villa, celebrating the goal. Oh, yeah. That was brilliant.

1:18Yeah, oh, so that was a good one? Yeah, yeah, I was right there with you, celebrating that. I've got a quick one. Last time Wayne was on it, he said that that Aguero goal was rigged. What were your thoughts on that, giving you the ref of the game? It was for me. You would be on the roll. you're onto it. That was more Paddy Kenny. The KPR pass is kicking the ball out. Right, Mike, great to have you with us. What else are you doing now that you've stopped refereeing? Not much, well, I'd say not much. I'm doing stuff obviously with Soccer Saturday every weekend with the lads, which is really good.

1:48And obviously I do selective games on a Sunday for Sky as well. So that's what I've been doing mostly since I've retired from refereeing VAR. Do a bit of carry on the women's golf tour, which is quite good. So I'm doing one down in Malia in the next couple of weeks. Quite keen on my horse race as well. I've just started with my own horse racing syndics as well. That's kind of taken off, which is quite good. OK. Well, Mike, give us a bit of a background on the referee and where does it start? How did you get into it? Yeah, it's one of those things where I played in goal. I got to a certain age.

2:19I finished school, stopped playing, didn't have a job for six or seven months, sat at home, literally done nothing, put loads of weight on, couldn't play football anymore, even in goal. I couldn't play, couldn't even move. so I just thought, right, next best thing is trying to referee. So I just went through the course, I just went from there. So probably starting in 1985 when I started literally getting going local football in the Eastern District League and the Burton Head Sunday League and then kind of... I'll be back at the start because obviously if you get promoted and refereeing, you've got a referee on a Saturday and I used to watch Chimey and I went away all the time so I wouldn't miss them just for anything.

2:53So unfortunately for me but I probably should have packed in there watching earlier and refereed soon and might have got a bit further than what I did anyway. But that was my main goal in 1985 when I got on. Refereeing is, listen, it'll always be, you know, a big debate up and down the country with every set of supporters. How would you describe refereeing when you sort of first, you know, became a professional, got involved with the Football League to now? The big differences? I think it was more enjoyable than the thing it is now, if I'm being honest with you. I think when I got in, I got in the Football League middle in 97 on the Premier League in 2000.

3:33Although the spotlight's on you as a referee, it was a lot more laid back a little bit. You can enjoy yourself. There's bigger personalities in the refereeing game than when I got on. I got on and we had the Graham Polls, Graham Barbers, Durkins, Duns, all them kind of people involved.

3:49I was scared when I seen them, look at these lot of referees here. It was more of an enjoyable time then because there wasn't much pressure on you. You didn't have the VR, which obviously we've got to touch on. You could go and train with the lads every week when we used to meet at training camps, have a laugh, have a beer, have a chat, talk about the games just over a pint with everybody, whereas now it's just more like it's so regimental now, which is probably how it should be. I think just the endurance has gone out of it for me. I don't think I could referee now if I was still involved. I just think it's so hard.

4:19I think it's so hard. Which referee, you've just mentioned a few then, Which referee did you look up to or had the biggest impact on you? I think Graeme, Graeme Paul. I know a lot of people didn't like him, but I really enjoyed Graeme's company. Whenever Graeme went abroad to referee, I was looking to be his full official, so I went to some great places with him. Just to see how he conducts himself in doing them high-profile games at Real Madrid and Barcelona and Inter and AC Milan, it was just unbelievable, just his presence on the pitch. It was just like every player, when he walked on the pitch, he went, crik, it's Graeme Paul here.

4:50and they just behave completely differently. Whereas you come to the UK and it's just hatred towards the referee. It's the same with the guys go abroad. Now the English guys go abroad. Now a referee, they get respected a lot more and you'll get the Dutch and the German referees coming to the UK and they get respected a lot more. It's just the way the culture is now. I think it's such a hard job to do. I've had my fallout at referees over the years. It's such a hard job to do because you've got to make mistakes. so I I think it's actually easier a lot easier now for referees I know you've got the scrutiny you've got social media you've got all that but I think for referees now if you make a mistake you can be corrected obviously with VAR so I just think I don't know how you do it I don't understand what you're saying but I just think that I think that's more of a cop out of me I think the ref should go out there and referees if the VAR's not there because I know what you're saying you make a mistake I've done it before when we had the VAR I make a mistake but me mate will bail me out this year so I'll get away with it here but that's what VAR's not there for VAR's there it's like clear and obvious complete rickets by the match it feels and I think if you've just got to just referee the way you've refereed you've got to that level in the Premier League for being a bloody good referee to just carry out and do the same things that you do week in week out if you make a mistake yes they will help you out but don't go out and think well is it a pen is it not a pen should I give it I tell you what I won't give it and if I'm wrong he'll help me out you should just make the decision on the pitch if you make an on-field decision it's easier then for the VAR to make the decision after that because if you don't make an on-field decision that's the worst thing about VAR it's just a horrible thought but you think the refs are doing that though yeah I think they do I do now now I've come out of it I think they are I think there's too many of them I don't think the list is as deep as what it should be I think there's too many of the bigger referees I'll use your Olivers, your Taylors, your Kavanaghs, your John Brooks to an extent.

6:51They get big games all the time and that's not right because I think there's too much pressure on them all the time before week in, week out. And I think there's going to come a time when one of them games are going to go tits up and they'll say, well, you shouldn't be refereeing them games. But the list below them, there's not enough guys pushing them to do them what we call golden games. Mike, could I ask you what it's like to be in the eye of a storm? you feel like you're the one getting spoken about for a couple of weeks as a big decision in a big game. How does that feel as a referee to be that guy who's been singled out and what does the refereeing community do around those situations to come together?

7:32I think when I first got in, I got a lot of criticism in my early years as a referee, but the older you get, you get a bit more thick-skinned, you kind of, not worse off the duck's back. It does affect you a little bit. It affects your family a little bit if certain things get a bit too far. I just need to describe a lot of... I've got a good... I had a good bunch of mates around me, as in refereeing mates. So, obviously, you drive home from a game and you know something's gone wrong because the guys will speak. And I'd have a journey from London to back where I am on the Wirral, four or five hours.

8:00And before you know it, it's gone like that because you've been talking to all the rest about what's going on, how can you rectify it next week, et cetera, et cetera. You've got a good group of friends. That's what you're going to do. You've just got to tell your mates why you've made the decision. they'll tell you why you think you should have done a different decision you've just got to work from there but it's just so hard sometimes Now if you did make a mistake do you become a bit more hesitant the next game to make a decision because it must affect you of course Early doors I think yes I think the older you get the more experience you've got you've kind of parked out and moved on I think if you worry about a decision made from last week and the week before that will affect you moving forward in your game because you'll be thinking about making another mistake and as a ref you just never go out thinking I'd make a mistake because you're going to make them anyway.

8:46You know the way that we live in now with social media? If you knew what you know now when you first started out in 1985 or you get onto the Football League in 1995, would you want to become a referee? Tough one, really, because I say, as referees, we weren't allowed to go on social media at all up to about two or three years ago because it was just not the only thing to do because obviously you get people messaging things and sending all kinds of abusive people. But I mean also the fact that you mentioned your family before. They're all going to be, you know, you've got kids, they're going to be on social media as well, aren't they?

9:20I mean, I just, I think that the way the world is now, whether you want to be a referee or not, social media is always going to be there. It's never going to go away. So you've kind of got to adapt your lifestyle to the criticism you're going to get. You've either got to take it on board in a constructive way or just kind of just miss it or just don't look at it. Who was, listen, two players on the couch here. We're definitely not shy. in letting referees know our feelings, is that fair? Well, to be honest, he was the best referee of us. He refereed, honestly, I think you've tried to intimidate referees more than any other player.

9:56Martin Atkinson. I'm quite proud of that. I think Martin, my referees, won your last game. He just said it was just nice that when it was the last game, it was just great that he handed the whistle back to somebody else. He refereed every game. Yeah. I mean, when I was with referees, I mean, listen, I did, I tried to influence referees and when you're saying that about me, I just didn't want anyone else to try and referee the game. It wasn't so much me, I wanted it, but I was like, definitely no one from the opposition was going to be allowed to influence the referee if I was on the pitch. That was definitely not going to happen.

10:28Yeah, no, it was, you used to insane as well. But yeah, no, listen, I think referees, I get it, I understand how difficult it is for them and for me the issue I have now with it is the Van Dijk goal I think it's a goal I think it should it should stand and then we've seen the one last year with City and Wolves which they overturned and give a goal I think that's what brings the frustration and confusion lack of consistency and we get told this is the rule but then why if that rule was in last season why is that being overturned so it's just a that's a I mean I I finished referee in 2022 and I got asked to be a full-time VAR and I thought, yeah, I'll stay involved with a game.

11:16It's really good for me. I can see what goes on. So I've done it full-time. And I think what people don't realise sometimes as a ref, it's dead easy. When I was active as a referee, I could referee one week before the official the following day, VAR the week after. You're still involved. You've still got a feel of what's going on on the pitch. But when you're sat in an office block with a TV in front, you haven't got the feeling of the game. You don't know what's going on. You know what's going on off the ball. you don't get the temperature of the game can you let a tackle go when you're refereeing yes you can in the VR hub you've got to look at it if it's a red card you've got to send the ref to the screen it's such a hard job doing the job when I did it full time first two or three months I loved it and then it was horrible and I'll be the first to say I wasn't the best at it the terminology wasn't the best like describing decisions to referees on the pitching and what we used to do and I was one for when I'm refereeing I used to have a bit of a laugh and a joke on a pitch, I'd say one or two things you shouldn't say to players and giving it back, et cetera, et cetera.

12:13I used to be doing the VAR and watching the screen. So say someone had a shot in 25 yards, whatever the bar, I'd be like, what the fuck's he doing now? Why are you paying that money for that? And you say that in general chat with the Avar as a bit of a laugh and a joke, to try and keep yourself switched on while I'm doing it because you're not supposed to speak. Because obviously when I was repping, I never shull up when I was repping. I was always talking to players, the liners, the fourth official. So I was trying to keep myself involved and switched on doing the VAR. and then we kind of got told that everything was going to get recorded.

12:42And obviously, seriously, because then obviously if clubs, which they can do now, request to communicate to me between the referee and the VAR at any time of the game, and we're just having a, not a laugh and a joke, but just trying to get myself switched on, the terminology was basically like set free for each thing and I just couldn't do it. And I was awful. So I kind of, 50-50, I kind of didn't want to do it and they thought I wasn't good for the job, so I kind of moved away from it in February. Just when coaching the younger refugees down in Northern Premier League and stuff like that, just to try and keep yourself involved.

13:14He's mentioned the consistency. I think the frustration I have a little bit, and probably we'll use the Van Dijk goal. Wayne's just mentioned it's obviously current. It's just happened. You were involved. You were talking on Sky as well. But I think we all know it's difficult, but it almost feels like there's this rush, especially when I'm doing TV. we're not quite sure why a decision's being given and there almost feels this rush by the PG MOL to get something out quick to like so everyone can shut up talking about it that's why I did it that's why I did it and it's almost like trying to pull the wool over your eyes a little bit I understand sticking together and I get that you're a team but is there something in there it does feel like I think the clubs I think requested some kind of clarification sooner rather than later so So obviously you have these football programmes where referees will explain decisions, but I think they kind of tweet stuff out within 10 or 15 minutes of a decision happen, which I don't think is a good idea, if I'm being perfectly honest, because while the game's still going on, the refereeing team's going to find out if the PGMO thinks it's right or wrong before they start the second half, aren't they?

14:22They're going to find out from somebody. I simply should wait after the game, before they release the statements, not during the game, I just think that's wrong. With regards to rushing, I think I'd rather have something put out within an hour and a half of the game finishing rather than finish it yesterday and someone comes out on Tuesday because that's important because you can kind of get some kind of story together if you know what I'm saying.

14:48Whatever the game you'll find it here on the overlap. Have you ever dunked a custard cream in an English breakfast you were milking? I don't know if I've ever done that. Why have they got leaf flowers? That is him. It's Mike said Fred in the front. I've been called Big Fred. Unbelievable. Gary Neville, grow a proper muzzy or shave it off your scruff.

15:12He just said 4-3-3 before that. Ça va! We're going to start Andrew on two and a half.

15:22Can't wait.

15:27Dad waited 18 years to shave it. I know. It's actually super Marcus Rashford. It's Nicky Butt, Teddy Sheringham, Roy Keane, hang gliding over Hotel Paul. Arsene Wenger, it's all that I was talking to Lionel Messi. Theo, why did you not push him down the stairs? Yeah!

15:47Give him what he wants! Give him what he wants! Yeah!

15:58Who was the most difficult player you had to referee? I think I'm not the only one I think Craig Bellamy was just so hard everyone says everybody did but he was just so hard I mean you know you see him off the pitch it's like most guys you see even though I'm a finished referee and you see most guys off the pitch in the final but when you cross the white line you guys were the same you cross that white line you wear your tits off all week and when you cross that white line and you're just like the referee's public enemy number one you do your own thing you work so hard and you're just so focused on what you're doing and you're always right and I think Craig was that kind of person but since he's finished playing and you see the way he comes across as a coach he's just mellowed a little bit I think he probably mellowed a little bit because you see a different side of it and you're looking at a game from a different way now whereas as a player you're looking at one way and one way your tunnel vision only as a manager or coach you've got to keep yourself switched on because you can't afford to blow your top as what you could when you're a player because you've got to be on that tech alert to coach your players haven't you it's completely different when you move away from the game You're talking about players having a goal, you say you're sort of like Craig Bellamy, you just mentioned sort of the way you were at referees.

17:07I was at referees at times, but sometimes I'd be trying to get you on side a little bit, almost chatting to you a little bit. What I'm trying to say, is there a way that someone you could almost go... Do you understand what I'm trying to say? Can a player almost get into your head a little bit, where you favour them a little bit because of how they are? I wouldn't say the word favour. I think you can get into your head a little bit I do get where you're coming from there I think the older you get you're a bit more wise of what they're trying to do I think the younger guys that first get on in the first two years because the players will know it's the referee's first or second or third year they'll know how far they can push you whereas the older you've been on five, ten, fifteen years they won't probably try on as much as what they used to because they know they won't get away with it I think the younger the referee or the less experienced referee you can probably try on with them I don't understand The only reason to say that I always remember in 2001 Geoff Winter was a referee and we'd had him and he was really poor and I criticised him after the game and it went in the press and the next time we played him he gave a terrible decision against me or the team it always stuck in my head and I thought you know what I'm not having a go and by the way I thought well it's your own fault shut your mouth about referees and having a go at the fella you've got to try and work this a different way and it was almost like a lesson for me that it's human nature, isn't it?

18:28If someone's constantly on your case or having a go at you, I'm not saying he gives something like that, but it could have gone either way, but it went against us. And then ever since that time, I always tried, I still had to go at referees and try to get decisions, but I'd always try and do it a different way. And I always remember a game away at Sunderland, we had a man sent off and we were winning by, I think we were winning 1-0 or 2-1 and there was still a long time to go. And all our lads were going mad at the referee. but it was the foreign players having to go to the three but I knew he would have knew me better if you know what I mean and I went up to him and said you were absolutely spot on there he should have been sent off someone got done for now I was at centre back I didn't even see the tackle on the half way line but my point being was I was thinking we're going to need him for the last 20 minutes that's why you didn't send you off when you fucking absolutely mullered me that was on your knee wasn't it yeah and then I thought you were going to say the nanny one I got right into the referee there quick I was in there quick but I'm talking about you're talking about I always say referees are not managing the game I actually think players have got to try and manage the referee in a certain way is there a way of managing the referee as a player?

19:40A little bit yeah I mean you can you can you can butcher them up and butch you like and say well done whether it's agreed or being sarcastic but there is a good there used to be a good rapport with players and referees I thought when I was refereeing I don't know if you thought the same I think that's kind of gone a bit now because since I've finished, not just since I've finished, but you guys will watch games now. There's not a lot of communication between the ref and the players anymore. Before, you could talk and have a chat, make a decision. You still talk about the same decision to the players a couple of minutes later, just in general chat.

20:11But now it's just like decision, you know, blow your whistle, make the decision, move on, next decision, move on. There's hardly any communication. I think that's lost in the game. I just think the ref is alienating so much from the players. me. I think it's just gone really the wrong way. Who was the most difficult manager?

20:30Well, I used to always, I never got on with Arsene Wenger and that was just, I don't know what it was, I just, whether it was every time I reffed him they lost, I don't know. It was just, I just couldn't get on with him and likewise I just think every time I got Arsenal, I went to Arsenal, there was just something about it when I got there that just didn't feel right. I spoke to a few people who used to work there since since they've retired, since he's gone. And they said, as soon as the fixtures come out on a Monday of the Newbyers reffing, straight away, he's like, oh, my God, he's reffing this weekend, we've got no chance.

21:01So straight away, he's knackered straight away. And he kind of psyched himself out all the way. But he was probably the hardest one. I mean, the other manager, you know, you talk about Fergie. There's a bit of a myth about Fergie to say that, you know, he used to come in and bat the refs all the time. He never, it was just, he'd say he did for the TV, but he hardly ever come in the dressing room, hardly ever come in the refs' dressing room, Sir Alex, hardly ever. but the way he spoke on the TV, it's if he did come on and it just looked that way for him but it was just like chalk and cheese then too.

21:28Unbelievable. Luke, have you got a question for Mike? Yeah, I kind of hinted towards it already about the Aguero goal and what was that day kind of like? Yeah, I mean, it was one of those games where I think as all the refs that week when the appointments come out on the Monday, we all wanted that game and looking if I got, I couldn't believe I actually had the game. So it was just to get the game, the build-up throughout the week, what was going on, what was at stake. Obviously, we had to kick off at the same time as Wayne's lot up at Sunderland. And just the way the game went, because we always knew that United were going to beat Sunderland, we always knew that.

22:03Just the way the game transpired, just like the emotions. We all thought that City were in the way, I think everybody did, didn't they? And it just went completely the wrong way. And what was strange about it, we all alluded to what's going on near the end of the game, but once QPR found out they were safe. Exactly. I know what you're going to say. I spoke to Clint Hill about this before. Once they knew they were safe, QPR, I think the game restarted. I think Jamie Mackie's on the pitch and he's going like that, like celebrating while the game's still going on because he knows they're safe. They make it 2-2 and they just kick it back and give it to him.

22:32And I said, what's going on here? Why did they give them ball back straight away? We actually said in the earpiece, why are they giving them ball back straight away? They had loads of City and players in there as well. I know Joey done his best to... I know. But it was just a strange one to kick off. He said he was celebrating with the City players after the game. And to kick off and give the ball straight back to him, I think Neil Swarby's before the division, he just said, keep switching on, someone's going to map it. You just knew someone was going to. You could just tell. There's another charge.

23:05All straight, all straight. Wayne and Paddy Kenny likes it. I think he likes the fact that he's rattled all the United fans. But I think we had 44. The only way he could have was doing it for someone else. Well, he's still done it. But it's just the end. I don't think it'll ever happen again. The way it was won, literally the last kick of the season, the ball to go in the back of the net, and the noise in the state, I thought yesterday noise was bad, but that was just scary as hell in 20s. It was just one of them days. I think we kind of finished, and we got in the dressing room, got changed, and we just went back out and just stood it by the corner flag and just watched the presentation.

23:41It was just unbelievable. Celebrating. First time. Oh, it was, yeah. makes a change for them to have a few more minutes in Yarlat anyway but it was just a good day all around I mean just the atmosphere itself the way the game unfolded we knew as well in our earpiece that obviously Manu would have won because they gave me the finish I think even Sky the producer would tell the bench they've won they've won it's 1-0 but I still can't get my head around why they kicked the ball straight back I just couldn't get that I don't know I don't know Wayne, I want to ask you, who was your favourite referee or who did you enjoy being refereed by?

24:24For me, it was probably Chris Foy, mostly, and then later Michael Oliver. And the reason was, they just spoke to you and you had a communication throughout the game. And what I liked is, if they made a mistake and they knew they'd made a mistake, maybe whether they'd gone in at half-time or whatever they knew, did acknowledge you and that was the reason really and I know I went to his referee and I think my emotions would boil over at times I remember the one Arsenal away I think it was Graham Paul I know Ginger Lodderkin yeah Paul Dirk and I've gone on him and when I look back I'm thinking that's bad whatever and then my worst one was Rob Stiles by a mile he didn't even ask that sorry he didn't even ask you the worst one I know but no he was the one you threw the ball at at Fulham

25:18and he said I was bad no I didn't throw it at him I threw it to Johnny Evans he was bad yeah the ref just got in the way I don't know I don't know but yeah I think as players as you said you probably have a better relationship with some refs than you do with other refs and that's just I think the way the game's gone now as well like there's different personalities now because like playing the game whereas before there was a lot more homegrown players if you know what I'm saying playing the Premier League so you could have a good rapport with them now there's a lot of players now like look at Chelsea for instance like if I reffed them now I'd know one or two maybe they could have a bit of rapport with but you've got to pick the right person to speak to because off the players haven't got a clue who they are even when I'm doing Soccer Saturday sometimes you go that much research to work out who's playing I like who they play for get the terminology right for naming the name the names of the players it just so are but you go back 10 years ago I could know every single player in every 20 Premier League teams 100 % but now I've got no idea of half of them Just going back to a year through the ball it was actually Phil Dowd who was one of my favourite referees Phil Dowd because he was the referee who kept me on against Nanny but what I would say the reason I mention Phil Dowd because I just remember a couple of things that happened and I actually thought it was good refereeing but it was nothing to do with on the pitch I remember seeing him before the game you know like an hour before the game on the corridor and he there was a lot more made of I think remember when Kalina started becoming like the big name effort it was all this like oh he's aware of the players it's not you know he knows what they do tactically and all that and he just mentioned a couple of things that he was going to be looking out for in the game almost a heads up as if like he was a skirt pulling shirt you know like a little thing you're shaking your head there no but what I'm saying is and there was one where I'm not sure if it was Phil Dowd or another referee I was one booking away from missing a cup final and I just mentioned this to the referee before the game because I thought I want to plant that seed in his head so he doesn't just go boom and not really do you know what I mean if I'm going to get booked it was a good one well yeah if I'm going to miss a cup final I better be taking someone out round the neck you know what I mean but I didn't want to get a silly booking so I mentioned that to the referee I think it might have been Phil Darr but I I enjoyed the fact that you could you know you're almost managing each other in some ways is that fair?

27:49I think you're probably right to be fair and to be fair the refs now they do get all the information when somebody's going to miss a booking but Phil was wrong the refs when Phil was repping you could say what you want to Phil and get away with it within reason probably the same with me but Phil would try and keep you on the pitch as much as you can so if he said you want to wait from booking he would only caution you if it was like as you say you took someone out of the neck and you think I just can't do you can manage as much as you want to manage as a ref but when someone like that happens you're hands are tied you can't do nothing I like that type of referee and I'll tell you why supporters I think it's sent off that much no by Phil Dowd definitely not by Phil Dowd I've got sent off a few times yeah not that many for what people maybe think I would would have done but I get frustrated when I hear supporters say there's no consistency and that every decision should be the same.

28:46I think a referee should manage a game and I'm always of the opinion, even as a pundit now, a referee should try as much as he possibly can to try and keep 11 men on the pitch. I hate sending off. I think it ruins games. And I don't think every situation is exactly the same considering what the fixture is, the time of the game. and different situations. So I like that. And there was a situation the other day. I was watching Remedit Liverpool. And you know where we were sat? I was sat right by the bench. So Xavi Alonso's going mad. You know, they're getting beat. He said something to the fourth official.

29:27There's literally 10 seconds to go. They're getting beat. One of the other games is over. And then after he comes over and shows me a yellow card. Now, for me, there's no need to show me a yellow card. If it's the middle of the game, you're trying to calm them. That's what I'm trying to say. But that could happen on the pitch. I'm just giving an example of something. I thought, why has the referee done that? Is that an old-school way of refereeing? Is the new breed that you've just got to give every decision based on what's happening? I think the new breed now is left to the lawn. If someone deserves a yellow card, they deserve a yellow card.

29:59But I don't think the Premier League are over keen on second yellow cards. I think they'll ask the ref to try and keep as many players on the pitch as they can. If you're going to be a second-year-old guy, you want it to be like a stone wall, think, my hands are tied. A little push in the back, a little tiny, a little shirt pull, a little trip midfield where he's going across. You could probably manage that. Someone's going down the way and he gets wiped out. You think yourself, what can I do? You've got to send him off. When your hands are tied, you're hands are tied, aren't you? But I think they are trying to keep as many players on the pitch as they can this year.

30:28I feel years ago when we played, or even before us, you used to always feel like the first five minutes, you can get away with one. I used to do it I used to think right I'm going to go and smash this fullback at the beginning of the game just to go to him and then you very rarely got booked to be fair the way the game was that's probably not far off it probably was because as a ref you wouldn't go with your cards too early because you put yourself in jail by the end of the game you want to try and manage as best you can you know you get to that level of being a good man management you want to try and manage what you can within reason but obviously now the way it's gone if someone puts a tackle in their first two minutes if it's a red card it's a red card it's a yellow card it's a yellow card and unfortunately that's just the way the game's gone there was an incident and Laura I'll mention remember Arsenal last year got a lot of red cards didn't they I think early in the season and there was one on Declan Rice I think it was against Brighton and this is one where I just thought the letter of the law that both yellow cards were I think the Brighton player stopped a quick free kick and then Declan Rice moved the ball something really but Declan Rice was always on the yellow card and in isolation they were probably both yellow cards but the ball was in a corner flag and I just thought the referee could just get the two players together and behave yourselves because they were both acting daft quick free kick, the game goes on no one's interested, no one's bothered and you keep 11 men on the pitch and I just thought that can't happen yes the yellow cards but just show a bit of sort of man management where there was yellow cards for fun for nothing like kicking the ball from here to two foot away a yellow card, three foot away, that's not really delaying the restart in my opinion because the ball hasn't gone that far.

32:09Someone kicks the ball 20, 30 yards, I can say, yeah, he deserves a second yellow or a yellow card for that. If he just flicks it with the outside of his front and he rolls three foot, I think that's just a cheap caution, just a waste of a caution for me. Martinelli had one, sorry, at Molineux a couple of years ago and I think it was Michael Oliver, a referee, and it was in the same passage of play, he got a book in and then a second yellow card and Arsenal fans still, I thought it was an unbelievable referee, obviously as a North fan but Arsenal fans still bring it up because he tried to block the throne with his hand Oliver played the advantage and then Martinelli took the guy out from behind so he's just getting a bucket That's the problem though it's because last year there was a kind of directive of right we're going to be looking for players kicking the ball away so then you have a spate of yellow cards like Trossard got another one etc and then the year after I don't think that's ever happened again feel free to correct me if I'm wrong HMRC but I don't think that's ever happened again so that's why it feels frustrating that each season we have a different view You do get a bit like a directive.

33:06You'll get every year, all the players, all the clubs will get it. And just to say that means you'll get kicking the ball away, they want to clamp down that because it's time-waste, you want the ball in play more, blah-de-blah. And it'll go through a phase where you'll get loads of yellow cards for that. And then come September, October, November time, it kind of eases off a little bit. Now, whether the powers that be have said, look, we've too many yellow cards, or the clubs have complained too much about how many second yellow cards there's been for kicking the ball away a tiny bit, I don't know.

33:30but we haven't seen that many this year, have we? Because he's kind of concentrating on someone else this year. What did the Doosby Hall win when he got booked for taking a quick free kick? Yeah, I mean, that's... Because we used to get told if the referee says wait to the whistle and you take it, you get a yellow card. The referee is not wrong. That's still the rule, yeah? Yeah, it's still in, yeah. So I think I watched the game last night. He did warn that the guy previous to that, he's done it again, but it is in the law, but you don't see it very often. and obviously when it does happen, you know, he got suspended because it's his fifth booking, so it's not exactly his first one, was it?

34:13Any questions, Gareth? We've got a few questions, haven't we? Do you want to start? Yeah, one that always sort of gets me is, like, I think referees and the PJMOL must be aware of how fans view referees, and, you know, there are some fans out there who say, you know, he's biased against my club or this wasn't fair and whatever. So we know that that conversation goes on and you can do the thing of footy fans are just a bit mad. And they are. The bit I don't get from an optics point of view really is, say Liverpool, as an example, play Man City at Man City and the referee has grown up about four miles down the road.

34:52There are going to be Liverpool fans who look at that and say, well, how's that allowed? and there's so many of the officials that seem to support Altingham. They should have about 40 ,000 at every game then. So I don't get from whoever's doing the appointments, why don't they take that into consideration just to take something away? Because if everyone's going to say, well, he's biased because he's a mank, don't appoint a mank to that game then. Do you know what I mean? I get where you come from. I know Anthony is from Altingham. He always has been. I've always supported him. But I do get where you come from.

35:25but he does Man United against Liverpool. Liverpool fans think... He's a good player, he trained with us a few times. But having said that,

35:39Liverpool fans didn't complain when I reffed them and I'm only... You're a Trammeer fan. Yeah, he says he is. I am. Always have been, Paul. But I get where you're coming from and there could be a bit more thoughts about going into that but sometimes, unfortunately, as I said before, or the best rest that we have live in certain areas where there's nothing you can do about it. Because you're not going to have a game like Liverpool and Man City refereed by a guy who's only done one or two years on the Premier League. You're going to have one of the experienced guys, whether it's Oliver Taylor, Kavanaugh, Brooks.

36:08It's always going to be. There's always going to be connections as well, in some way, I think. And I think you've got to respect the referee and the integrity of refereeing the game. I think if you go too far on that, I think... Is that the one last year with Stuart Atwell? Is Stuart Out will do a game at Everson and somebody last year and he gave a penalty, didn't he? Did Luton complain that he supported Luton? Yeah, it was. Forrest. Forrest, yeah. Forrest can be supported. Luton, you think yourself, come on. You don't go out. That's what I mean. You could always find something where you shouldn't referee the game.

36:42You got a question? Yeah, I was going to say, Mike, in terms of crazy games, because you talk about the City game, but I remember the Wolves at Cardiff that you refereed in the Championship the year we went up. and two things really obviously the Warnock and Nuno interaction after the game because we you know we're celebrating but two penalties that game right at the death as well is there any other crazy games and during that game as well it's quite a theatrical penalty point I don't remember that one always yeah I mean I think I mean that game itself I mean that was just just a great ending obviously not from a Cardiff point of view but the two pens were stick on pens I mean both that's why sometimes when you do a game like that because of what was at stake no VAR as well I think made that better and to still From my point of view, and our team on that night, to still be switched on the 94th and 97th minute, to still make that big call, we were quite pleased.

37:30That's to be perfectly honest with you. But other crazy games, obviously, I mentioned the Man City one. That was just a crazy game. I just did some play-off semi-finals in the championship, which I've been involved in loads. And they're just manic games. They're just so good. The atmosphere is unreal. What about people like Warnock? You talk about coaches and managers. Did you get on well with him? Yeah, I mean, that's funny. I used to get on well with the coaches that people don't get on well. if that makes sense. He says a lot about you, doesn't he? Yeah, he does. He's come in the dressing room before now, Neil, he'll just sit down and have a chat with you.

38:01Just say it as it is, door's shut and you can just give it back as much as you want and he's fine about it. Sam used to be the same. Sam was the same. It's funny, some of them actually think you wouldn't get on with him. I do get on with them. Once I think I'll get on when I'm OK with him, it just doesn't work. Sam's the only coach I played under who analysed the referees. Yeah. It was amazing when we come in at Everton and there was one game in England and he's analysing the referee and how likely he is to go and give you a yellow card. He used to have stuff on his board, didn't he? Yeah, it was...

38:30Because we used to go in years ago but we get the colours through now and an email saying what everybody's wearing and what the refs have to wear. When we first went there probably 10 years ago, you'd go in the rooms before the game, check the kit, see that they're in red and keep us in that, we'll wear black. And on the clipboard they say, they say, Mike Dean, ref, doesn't like holding the corners, six red cards, so many yellow. But he puts that on, so obviously that's on there for a reason. So obviously the players will then read that and say, be careful of corners, because it's put that doubt into the defender's mind that if you do do it, he'll penalise you.

39:01So he does his own way quite well, Sam. Livia, you've got a question? Yeah, so actually just following on from what we're talking about, like influence from players and, you know, bias and everything, there is a bit of a perception amongst the smaller clubs, Bournemouth being one of them, you know, that there's this big club bias and everything. In the Premier League, you're not that small, are you? Well, quite. But how, and we've been, you know, at the likes of Emirates and Anfield where there's 50 ,000 home fans or whatever. How easy or difficult is it to see objective in that kind of situation?

39:33I think I said before, you've kind of just got to go and just ref what's put out in front of you. You know, if you've got to make a big call, you've got to make a big call. I think a lot of the refs aren't scared to make big calls now. If it's for the so-called, what you say, smaller teams at Man U or at City or at Liverpool, if you've got to make the call, you've got to make the call. If it's an unpopular decision, it's an unpopular decision. I just think you've got to go out and just referee 11 against 11 and forget what's around you. Yeah. Because you go to your place at Bournemouth and you're playing Man City.

40:03I was there the other year when I think I sent off somebody for taking a shirt off. It might have been Sterling. Yeah, second Yellop for taking a shirt off. And you think, well, smaller club, so-called, and a bigger team. you could have just overlooked because it was last minute but just go for you what's in front of you How quickly Mike would you find say you've given a penalty last minute and then obviously before VAR how quickly would you find out whether it was the right call or wrong call after the game When I got in the dressing room Yeah I think because between the four of us we probably had a bit of a chat quickly we would have had the coach who would probably have had a different view of it and chat from there he would have got to suffer as well from the Premier League to say he needs to look at this and we used to have clips so we used to have like a match delegate come in he used to be an ex-player he'd have the clips on his iPad and just come and just show what do you think of this and you think oh I've got it wrong but you know you don't do it on purpose do you but it's just one of them things Yeah no it was really interesting when I was a derby when I was derby manager my desk room the coach's desk room was right next to the referee's one and you could hear through the wall at half time Yeah So I'd say my coach's going there I'd stay there and be quiet or I'd have a coach just sat in there A little glass again.

41:14A little glass. But I think sometimes if you make a mistake, I mean, you've kind of got to... It's not worth... If the manager comes in at the end of the game after half an hour to say, look, what do you think? It's not worth saying, yeah, I'm right. If you made a mistake, just tell him you've made a mistake because I know he's going to go back on the press and say, you zoned up, he's made a mistake. If you don't make a mistake, when you go again, you're going to get battered, aren't you? Just if you made a mistake, all your hands up. Everyone used to always say, oh, we want referees to come out after the game.

41:41Would that have worked? Would that have helped anything? Yes and no. I think the only thing is, I've done it a couple of times at West Brom and the only one speech you've had is something controversial has happened. So, you know, you're not going to go around and say, can you come on the TV and tell us how well you're a referee because no one's interested. I think that's another reason why the Premier League puts stuff out pretty quick to try and defuse for the referee to not go on. Would it help? I would think it would probably help a little bit more if I'm being honest with you. The way the game's moving now, I wouldn't be surprised if he comes in eventually.

42:12obviously you've had Anthony on your Monday Night Football haven't you given his insight to what goes on I think if you get a small hold in five minutes so he can speak to someone not necessarily to the whole press just to chat to the TV someone not sit in the press conference and have a chat to everybody there because you've got questions left, right and centre just maybe one person interviews and asks a question then he can relate back to the press conference that would be easier rather than go and sit in front of the press conference I think you're always going to be wrong in someone's eyes always yeah So we might see something and I might think it's a penalty, you might think it's not.

42:45So I think that would be very difficult to think for the referee. I think that's the reason why you don't do it, but I think it may well come eventually. Laura, do you have a question? No, I was going to say that we do have an opportunity for the refs to come out. We have two of our biggest broadcasters have dedicated shows where we analyse in depth the referees. I think very rarely Howard Webb will say, yeah, he was wrong. It feels like it's just an opportunity for him to say, you know, actually I think it was right, but the evidence suggests otherwise. So I'm not sure having the referees come out and have a dedicated show for themselves actually does any good, unless they're going to be prepared to call each other out, which I can understand why you wouldn't want to do that, but we have that already and it doesn't seem to do anything.

43:26Yeah, I kind of get that. I think that I like watching the show and I kind of know where they're coming from with some clips, but I think sometimes you should put some negative clips on it. I do think you should put a clip on where everybody knows it's their own decision. for Howard to explain why it's the wrong decision. I think obviously yesterday, in the next show, obviously the decision there, I think, from what I'm hearing this morning, I think the better decision would have probably been to keep the flag down and let VR look at it. But once the decision has been made on-field, they're never going to overturn it because there's some elements that probably do tick one or two of the boxes.

44:01That will get covered. Will he say and come out and say it's definitely the wrong decision? I don't know. But I think they need to cover a decision that is really wrong, that everybody knows it's wrong, but they never really do and I think that doesn't help them sometimes, I think. At the start, I asked you about would you, what you know now, would you have gone into refereeing? What are the refereeing numbers like in terms of coming through? Is that a worry about us having the best referees, having enough referees to do everything that we want in this league? Is that a worry numbers-wise or at the grassroots level, is it absolutely fine?

44:33Is it flourishing? Grassroots is OK. I think the next level from the football league to the Championship, to the Premier League there's a big gap there I think in terms of quality or numbers a bit of both I think and why is that probably a bit of both I think quality wise there's probably too many in the Championship have been there and weighing on load with doing teams like Birmingham and Derby there's refs been in the Championship that have got literally no chance of doing a game in the Premier League because they're not good enough or they're too old but they're probably good enough to be in the Championship but wouldn't go any lower so they're kind of maybe like in a holding...

45:08So they're stopping younger ones coming through? Yeah, I think so. I think so. And obviously with them being contracted now as well as full-time referees, that's a bit different to try and shift somebody and actually go through the proper process of like performance-wise, you know, warning's got to improve, et cetera, et cetera. I think the list on the Premier League is not the strongest it's ever been, if I'm being perfectly honest with you. You take, say, four good referees out of it, four of the top refs out of it, we're struggling. Four top refs? that's what I'm saying so if you look at the FIFA guys the FIFA said are our three best according to FIFA and UEFA Taylor, Oliver and Cavanaugh because they're in the top group they'll do Champions League games you say them three out of that group just say them three got injured now for like the next three months they'd have a hell of a job trying to get some bigger referees to referee them big games would that be the case in every league around you?

45:58yeah yeah is there an argument for us bringing we all feel we've got the biggest and the best league we've got the best foreign manager the best foreign players is there a case that to bring that quality up you would get the best foreign referees that we've seen in the Champions League we've got the most money in the Premier League and we'd pay them at times to come in is that feasible? I think you could probably try it but then I think that there'll still be issues then because if you look at all the referees in their domestic leagues there's the same issues in Spain, Germany and Italy with their domestic referees I watch football three or four times a year in Holland every year go over and the standard is it's good when they come abroad but the standard is exactly the same there's issues with their clubs not liking their referees doing their domestic games and they're saying can we get English referees to come over so it could work but I just think it's just too far over I think

46:55I've got a question correct me if I'm wrong but I think you once commented about Anthony Taylor and not wanting to call him off to a screen because of the grief he would get and kind of just to add to the point that Laura made about kind of when you see referee pundits that kind of jump through hoops to try and justify crazily incorrect decisions. Isn't it better to challenge them and try and get them to improve and get the right decisions rather than justify wrong decisions or having decisions to go under the radar? Yeah, if I had been time again, I'd definitely send answers to the screen when I was at Chelsea.

47:28I think the issue I had then was this is another reason why I kind of stepped away from it. I think it happened in November time, is that I've seen the incident, and because of what's gone on during the game with Laby, I think he's had two or three players sent off. He's had both managers cautioned. I thought to himself, he just doesn't need any more grief. I just want to send him over. And I know straight away, as soon as it happened, I thought, I should have just sent him over. And you know, for well, they're going to go and score from the corner, and they only did. Just a sod's door as a referee, and it just happens.

47:55But he was just poor by me. He was just so bad by me. And when I come out, I said, oh, he's my mate. All the refs, when you're a ref, they're all your mates. It's like one of your players, they're all your teammates. They're all your mates. But he'd come across as a mate as my best mate, which he's not. But it's like mate as in, I didn't say because he's a mate as an agreement. He's trying to look after him as a teammate. Exactly. But I should have just sent him over. And Anthony's probably big enough and ugly enough to say, well, if I go over, I'm not bothered. I'll go to the screen again. If I have to send five players off, I'll send five players off.

48:22Not an issue. And that's probably something I'd learn from. So I think that it's the wrong call by me. Again, if we've had that show with Howard, we could have probably put that. It's just poor by me. It's just so bad by me. it's just probably the worst things that I've done as VR just pathetic it was so I don't like when the referees are announcing I think it's so cheesy I know I mean and the issue you've got with that is because there's no need for it because it's been brought in FIFA and the World Cup and obviously we have it now in the UK we have it in they have it in Spain they have it in all the big leagues now in the world because that's just the way that I think the people want it that way that's just what social media wants as well but again it is just a bit strange like obviously you see Chris now he's struggled a little bit with it I think sometimes it's just to add if under 60 ,000 people you are a bit nervous because that's not something you're used to doing so when you start doing your first two or three weeks doing it you probably found it dead hard that's probably only Chris' second or third time he's had to announce something to the whole stadium the more you do it the easier it becomes I think that's the thing with the communication it's just like he'll come out and go oh the goalkeeper fouled Docky it's like yeah we know that we all watched it it's like the same as the Premier League match centre tweets it's like they're kind of just coming straight from the handbook sort of talking in language that we don't really want to understand It's useful though for me because I was behind that and I couldn't really see it because the keeper's in the way so as much as he's saying you're at home you can see the foul I think it's better for the fans in the stadium But you probably still want a bit more context of just like oh it was a bit it's reckless it's kind of come out I think the longest it was a foul by the goalkeeper is that what he said?

49:49Yeah So I think you assumed there was a foul from the goalkeeper Yeah we thought it was a foul You're not going to get the detail Yeah It's like the offside ones it's like number nine was offside it's like well we figured that's why the goal was being disallowed the issue was the first year or two of VAR especially at some grounds they'd be given a decision or a goal would be disallowed and some grounds wouldn't show it on the screen there were some decisions you're like why is that the first couple of years of VAR we had a couple of offside chats you're like who's offside why I think it's just I would say it's more for Manchester it's the right thing to introduce it but I was going to say I've been in grounds where they've done it it's like we still know what's like we still can probably guess but it's like it probably just needs to take that extra step in terms of communication, just to talk in the language.

50:32I get, as a football fan, I'd like to describe it, I would think you'd like to hear it be described, rather than say, having reviewed it, there's a clear contact by the Liverpool goalkeeper or the Manchester City player. Or would you say he just took them out? Yeah, he just wiped them out. Wiped them out, stonewall, yeah. That's the thing, I think, like, earlier, what you were talking about, the kind of rapport you can build with players on the pitch, everything's becoming so robotic now kind of generally across football it's like you referees maybe feel like they can't really have those kind of conversations and chats you were talking about it with the VAR like you don't really have those conversations because they're listening to everything it's like we just want to be spoken to like human beings I think if players get treated a little bit more like human beings on the pitch as well like we're kind of going back to your day where you could have a bit more kind of banter it's like you build that relationship it just feels like we've gone so far because since VAR's coming everything has to be correct in a game where we can accept bad decisions.

51:24We just can't accept. I think you get rid of it. I think it's terrible. Do you think it's gone too far? I don't like it at all. To go back? It'll always be. It's never going. So how do you improve it? Like, they're trying to challenge you. I think sometimes you get used for the wrong things. I think sometimes you shouldn't go looking all the time. That's what it feels like in the ground. It feels like you're in the ground and it's like, OK, we've scored, but now we'll have to wait for five minutes That's why they think of a reason to rule that out. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, I think thinking for a reason is probably a bit too harsh to think.

51:57But I know that's what spectators do think, they're looking for a reason. But it has got a bit too forensic trying to look for things. If you just kind of... FA Cup's third and fourth round, I said before, when they've got no VAR and the referees are at the Premier League, they referee differently. You mentioned before about the guys... When we used to get refs coming down from Premier League to the Championship, it's a different game because with VAR, the referees can be a bit more hesitant and wait a little bit longer or not put the flag up knowing that they'll get help out. But in the Championship, it's...

52:26They've got to make decisions. They have to. They've got to make mistakes. Referees make mistakes. That's fine. But I think just the emotion of the game and you see players scoring and they're waiting and the fans are all sat there waiting. Just like, you miss that moment to celebrate and the rest of the time you used to just look over and see if the flag was up. See if the flag was down and you know where to go. I think what's hard is like because I've kind of come through for 15 years without VR and it got introduced when I was halfway to come on towards the enemy crowd for like 6 or 7 years at the end I think you've kind of went through a phase where you didn't have VR when you were playing but everything now that like all the referees coming through now all they're going to have is VR so they've got a referee for not for the VR but the way VR is operated that's how they have to kind of referee if you know what I'm saying whereas championship guys they do it because they haven't got VR but when they step up they have to they have to get used to using the VR.

53:19We had one on Saturday night, I think Chelsea Wolves, didn't it, wasn't it? Yeah. Andrew Kidd, he's only second of the Premier League game. And you could tell watching him, you could just tell he's not used to having the VAR. You could just tell he was just like a bit hesitant with one or two things he made, but you've got to be used to doing it. But the guys that are coming through now in the next five or ten years, all they will know, they'll only referee ever with VAR.

53:45My last couple of questions. one rule you would change to make football better? Even when I was reffing I used to wait goalkeepers going down in the second half especially when there's nothing wrong with him because as a ref you know there's nothing wrong with him. Was his name David Dreher? Even at lower level the fourth pitchers say the keeper's going to go down in a minute what for is it? Because he is and you can see he's going down so he goes down and then everybody comes over a bit of a chat between the benches I'd like to see if that happened and how for your player go off for five minutes.

54:18because it's only a delaying tactic, isn't it? Yeah, go on. It's only a delaying tactic. Best referee in the world? Who do you see as the... Ever? Ever? Yeah. Oh, Kalina by a mile. Kalina? Oh, by a mile, yeah. Just his presence on the pitch, his mannerisms, the way he was, wasn't scared to make a decision. I'd love to... It'd be great to see what he'd be like with VAR. Do you know the way he used to referee? Because whatever decision he gave, or did any player question what he did because of who he was. Big eyes, bull dead. It was just fantastic. But no one questioned him. Imagine now someone saying to him in his ear, Pierre-Louis, I think you've made a mistake.

54:57He'd be like, no, I haven't. But it would just be great to see how he could referee now with VAR. He's the best by far. Last one. Carol, have you got any referee receipts for anyone? I've got a question based on a referee receipt that I've had. So, an ex-colleague of yourself, Mark Clattenburg. Oh, yeah, Mark. He once claimed that, first of all, Marcelo asked him for a picture after a game and a separate player asked him for his shirt. Has that ever happened to you? And boys, have you ever seen a player do this to a referee? We've had a few players asking for shirts. I think I'd done Wolves the other year when, I think Nunes' last game, might have been when they all left.

55:36They came and the goalkeeping coach asked if we had a referee shirt because he just wanted one because I think he was leaving. I think we were going to Saudi or something. so we all sign a shirt and give it to him but apart from that nothing no when we go abroad sometimes like European games and you guys don't know when you go abroad you used to always get a shirt off the own clubs anyway which was fine and the clubs were fine with that but I think with regards of asking for players' shirts I wouldn't go that far I've got one but the other way round and it just came to me that was Kalina Kalina asked for Michael Owen's shirt you know at the end of the game and Michael's went, well, okay, I'll have yours, whatever.

56:14So Michael's given me his shirt and he just palmed him off at one. He didn't wear it. He just gave him a shirt that wasn't even the one that he wore. So he thought he was the big fella, didn't he? I mean, sometimes when players ask you for the shirt, it sounds daft, the way the world we live in, players like Chuck's shirt to wear, there'll be a new one there next week. We get like two shirts a season when you're F. So if you give a shirt away, you're knackered the week out, you ain't got one. Whatever you say, you can't wear blue this week, I haven't got a blue one yet. You just can't wear them because we only get two shirts, whereas clubs get different cheers every week.

56:44OK, is that it? Anything else? I was just going to ask about, so, handball, certain decisions like that. Does it not matter what VAR you have, how many officials look at it? Is it just always going to be inconsistent when you're trying to ascertain intent, natural position, unnatural position? I think handball's the hardest thing we've got to deal with having been perfectly honest with you. I think the one at Liverpool in the week with handball with Real Madrid on the edge of the area, it's just interpretation on the day. if that referee makes a decision the VR will work together as long as M4 or M5 get it right that week you'd like to think the week after the same group would get it right but I think handball's so inconsistent and you don't know what you get from one week to the next I think the frustration with that as well with the handball rules is that if you're a fan of a club that's in Europe you're getting refereed differently under different rules kind of from game to game and it's like you'll see a handball like we had it in the Champions League final against Liverpool that would not get given in the Prem and then the rule gets kind of changed off the back of it and you might see the Liverpool penalty I didn't think that was a pen in the week the one against Madrid but you probably know that that's not going to get given in the Premier League but you might get a different one given in the Champions League for the same thing so it's just like that's really frustrating when we talk about the consistency it's just yeah it is hard it is hard but one of the worst decisions ever on both Mike thank you for joining us on the fan debate brilliant mate it went really well so that is another episode of the fan debate brought to you by Skybet

58:10Wayne Roon? Roon? Fresh off.