Out-of-Touch Owners, The Title Race & Carrick & De Zerbi in Trouble! | Dyche Joins Fiery Fan Debate!

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2:49Period. If it was that easy to get it all right and deliver and get the strategy and get the plan in and please the fans, they'd all be doing it. What they're doing to the club, I'm not even a Man United fan, it's despicable. It's nothing short of disgusting. Does he feel like the right fitter for us? Well, I thought I felt like the right fitter for us. Obviously it wasn't. The first thing you want to see from a player every time is put Everett in. And he's definitely putting Everett in. Now it's not could win it, now I think it should. Probably feeling a bit more pressure than when you could win it.

3:18No, I disagree completely. I think that last season... Is that because you're a management experience? No.

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6:29Stop being a dinosaur, she said. So, no, I'm having a bit of fun at the minute, actually, and, you know, doing shows like this as well. Are you enjoying being out of management? Are you looking back at the game? Are you looking to get back here? I am at the moment because, you know, I've had so many different experiences over the last few years and different challenges, as you know. So, you know, sometimes it's nice to get a break away from it and see my kids a bit more and all that. My lad plays at Northampton Town where he's sub at the minute, but he wants to get in and find his way. I know you'll have plays as well.

6:58So, you know, all that sort of stuff. Just some life stuff. It's not always, you know, football dominates you when you're in it. So sometimes it's nice to come out of it. I keep my eye on it, but not every detail. You know, it's nice to take a breather from it. Any gigs? Yeah, well, not so much over the last few weeks, but vaccines, over the summer vaccines, Wolf Alice, who are great, Saban, who I love anyway. So they were the last three. There was a little week, a little sort of spell in London when they were all playing. but I've got a few coming up Shed 7 coming up and loads of others the vaccine's on tour with Xavier so I'll watch a few of their gigs this could be a new overlap there you go the music scene but one band he didn't mention Oasis oh Buzzy Man yeah yeah so Manchester Lads it's so easy to throw that I was there last year the first gig and I spoke to Noel so I'll be there this we got it in we got it in I was just thinking it was a nice way to get to you Luke because we're starting with Luke at Manchester City we haven't done this for a while and the reason we're starting with you is why?

8:00Because we're top of the league Exactly Man City are back top of the league so come on there was a lot of talk with Pep going it'll be a big sort of maybe a turbulent season might be tough for you how's it been? Come on Yeah it's been great seven wins from seven I didn't expect that if you'd asked me how was it going to be with all due respect I thought something maybe similar to what Liverpool have been doing a few wins unbeat I think in the league aren't you? That's what I was looking at that sort of, can we get ourselves to sort of 10, 12 points? Won all five of the league games, won away in Porto, which is a tricky place to go.

8:31Won, obviously, in the League Cup, and we've won every game. So, you know, the performances have been pretty decent. Generally, there's been a couple where we've sort of half limped over the line, but, you know, as Sean would say himself, it's a results business and we've won the game, so I'm buzzing. My team's never limped over the line. We always run ragged. Well, go on, you've mentioned Pep, you've mentioned Mareske, obviously, Sean, you've just come in there. I mean, you've managed against both managers. Is that a good fit for Manchester City in terms of coming in after Pep? Yeah, I think, first of all, after the game and the sort of charity shields, it was known, and it still is, I suppose.

9:05But, you know, after that, I think everyone went, well, hang on a minute, there's a lot of work to be done there. But obviously, we all know pre-season, well, you definitely know, pre-season, it can find you out, but also it can put you in a false sense of, you know, security at times of fans alike, and managers and players. You know, I've had good pre-seasons, it hasn't gone well at the beginning of the season, bad pre-season that has gone well so I think that one sort of caught everyone off guard including me by the way I thought oh they've got a bit of work to do to get it to gel but they've done fantastically well so far and I can only imagine with Maresca you know like not the same I think he's his own guy he certainly seems I was very impressed that Chelsea went in there and you know he's for want of a better way he sort of cleaned it out didn't he there was a lot of noise about so many players and disgruntled players he kind of just went bang pushed a lot of them aside so I thought fair play to him it's not easy to do that the big clubs and you know this time he's kind of managing it slightly differently it looks to me but probably similar in many ways to Pep but his own sort of stamp on it you know what I mean and so far so good quite obviously I know you delighted with the results of course but is there a part you're looking at sort of the goals you've conceded lots of goals involved in games do you think that could come back to haunt you because the one thing I noticed a little bit I didn't think you could win the league if Rodri had gone but now I'm looking at it not just because you're just top you've settled in but it does feel still very open in midfield is that right?

10:25I think the game at the weekend yeah it was a bit of a mad one that Sunderland game it could easily be game of the season but before that we'd only conceded two in the league in four games so I think we can be solid Diaz Gay both brilliant but the one for me was the United game going there going down to 10 men after 25 minutes and people can talk about the decision as much as they want to win a game with 10 men in a derby away from home and you're playing for 70 minutes with 10 men against United for me was unbelievable Because then when I thought, on Manchester City, there is going to be a title race.

10:53That for me, the team, it sounds a bit nonsense saying about team building and stuff like that, but the kind of experience the players will get that so early on. You like Enzo Fernandes coming in. Some of the signings, to go and win a derby away from home with 10 men, for me, is just ridiculous. Do you want to say that again? Do you know that? I get your point, throwing words around like nonsense. It's not nonsense, actually, because when you get a new manager and some new players in, them results, They bond you together. You know, belief is shared. You know what I mean? So I don't think it is nonsense.

11:24You know, it is important to win them games, well, especially for the Superpowers, for any team. But for the Superpowers, when you're going to change someone like Pep, who's a legend, then the rest goes in. It'll be important for him, you know, to go play in a game like that and win it. Do you know what I mean? We're turned in. It bonds him together with the team, the team with each other. It's a lot of new players as well. We've still got an edge to us here. Yeah. And we can still go and go and go. You know what I mean? And for me, that was a big performance and a big result. a very important one for me I think I think I said after the game on Monday Night Football it almost feels like anybody who wins the league always look back at five or six games a season and you think oh that was big now who knows what will happen it's very early but when you have a result like that it just it felt more than three points was that is that better than the 6-1 at Old Trafford?

12:09It's not better than the 6-1 you can't you can't beat being United 6-1 I mean United were favourites to win that game I think 7-0 well yeah I guess you can you can in that sense but I mean away from home obviously going to United and winning 6-1 will never really be beaten the context at the time obviously Mancini against Alex Ferguson you can't really do much better than that in a city sense anyway but it's definitely right up there Derby talked about for 20 or 30 years at least and it's a brilliant start like I said you said as well you talk about big games big moments last season we had seven points after five games we started pretty badly and then that's where we kicked on from it's a bonus really for me having all the points in the bag is sort of a nice little foundation to start from.

12:49Sean, we talk a lot on this show about this change, Mureska and Pep, you just mentioned coming up against Mureska. How difficult was it for you as a manager going into a game against Manchester City, great players, but also Pep Guardiola who almost feels like every game you go into. My record at Burnley, I think we were going for the record of the biggest run of 5-0 losses. I think we were. We got beat two and I was jumping for joy. No, I mean, you know, it's not just the manager, is it? You look at the players, you know what I mean? I mean, every time we seem to go there, you look at the players they had and you think, you know, it's not easy when you're Burnley and you're going to places like that.

13:27Not easy when you're Everton as well, because we had all sorts of problems. Not easy for any team. But I think the change of the manager is just, I mean, it can work either way when you're going after, you know, a legendary manager. You know what happened at Man U? It was tough. You know what I mean? Moisey didn't get enough time from me, personally, Moisey. But different kind of legend, of course, since Alex, arguably the best manager there's ever been. I think Pep similar but different so it's always going to be difficult but you still you know if you get what I mean it's not just the manager you look at the team you look at the players they've still got top top players it can be daunting for the team still even you know they go there thinking but all I would say is when they're changing early season people go right let's try and catch them while they're not quite gelling you know what I mean it's like I mean going off off piste a little bit but Chelsea are a bit like that at the minute they sort of look hot in one way they can score but then they look all over the place at times at the back so finding that balance is probably the bit where teams go there with a bit more renewed excitement they can challenge them and beat them but then when they've won like the other nuns I think they've already put a stamp on that and gone hang on a minute you know we're not here to just be rolled over just because the manager's left you know I mean and credit to all of them involved so far it is only so far it's early doors isn't it still you can't be people going to get carried away and try and push an agenda you know it's like like you said the 3-0 to start against Arsenal in the charity shield everyone was having a meltdown and now all of a sudden it's like City winning everything so you've just got to keep a look.

14:45I don't think there's a meltdown but I watched that you know I watch every minute of every game but I was interested in that one it just looked like there wasn't that cohesion. A bit out of shape needed a couple of signings to come in as well. Not just a signing but too many mistakes but that can be like so that can be pre-season that can be the end of pre-season you don't know the work that's been done on the training pitch. You know Carol T sometimes a manager almost sent you into games knowing you're a bit fatigued knowing you're not on it but because they know the bigger picture is more important so it may have been something as simple as that because I've certainly done great since I've got that game out of the way, that's for sure.

15:25Some things belong in football, some things absolutely don't. However, opinions differ. It's time to play Games Gone, Games Back, brought to you by Skybet. Right, we are joined by two of our fans, Baz and Flav. Kieran, you're involved? Yeah. Kieran is our board. Yeah. Ooh. Yeah. Along with some topics to discuss today, as well as one from the previous games. So it's got someone else's name there crossed out, then it's got Kieran. Yeah, I'm the substitute. You're a sub. You're Davey Fairclough. He's Davey Fairclough. All right, take it away. Go on, Kieran. Yeah. First one is halftime interviews.

16:09I'm going to be careful with this. This is a Sky thing, so I'm going to be careful with this. I mean it's been what with like ex-pros and legends and stuff no no players walking off the pits oh yeah nonsense game's gone yeah game's gone okay I'm going to ask you why because it's just what are you getting out of that when I like you're playing you're there walking off the pits you're 2-0 what are you getting out of that well the person who's 2-0 down what if we're interviewing the person who's 2-0 up well what did he say yeah that was great would you not rather listen to one of the players rather than listen to one of the pundits at half time I get what you're saying I'm not bothered by that at all I don't think you're going to get any substance Players are so well trained at Straight batting answers anyway I suppose if you're going to get them to speak off the tongue Quickly it'd be in that environment But as a fan of your club you don't want to hear that Especially if you're down You saw in the World Cup with Who was it who was giving interviews Not anybody He was just trying to get as many big words out as he could He came across really well It was good for his profile But he didn't really tell us anything so I'm not I think it's a waste of time what did you think about Brentford then they did it in the game in that one yeah the game was kicked off right yeah he'd come off he'd scored the fella scored the first goal for Brentford and then they're interviewing him yeah in the game it's about getting more access isn't it basically the big company is Sky obviously the best one aren't they no but they're trying to get a bit more for the isn't it better just after it bang for the book so like in America they get it they go straight after it don't they when it's done you'd imagine all the clubs going we don't want to do this and you'd say well you like your money don't you I'm because Sky I'm trying to as much as I can get it into games back but it looks like it's going to go into games gone doesn't it what would you have been like if it was in the Merseyside derby that would have been alright I was going to say right go on games gone just under here right next one right next one Kieran managers in tracksuits which that's all right, isn't it?

18:13Yeah, it's a long-standing tradition, if anything. I prefer the old sheepskin coats. I mean, we should bring those back, but in the absence of those... Oh, we're warmer with a sheepskin coat. You probably don't need it anymore. No. I prefer it when I see my manager in a nice suit. I think Pep always look great as well, somewhere in between. It's not suits anymore, though, is it? No. Pep started, Pep was bringing rollnecks in and also. Yeah, when he had a nice CP or a stoner. I think the manners look quite cool now, don't you? Yeah. I mean, I was always... I used to think if I was a manager I used to always think what I would wear and I would What was it?

18:44Shoot? Yeah but it's gone away from that and I was in a suit but I was never a fan of track because I used to think you should look different than your coaches Yeah fair play but then Klopp rocks up doesn't he put a cap on as well and the track and you just think well Klopp can do it It can't be games gone if Klopp did it Yeah it definitely can if Klopp was here What about how a Kendall he had the suit He was always the suit wasn't he I always think a manager should try and look at him No no it's fair comment 100 % What are we saying? We're saying well it can't be games gone can it? Because it's a tradition in the game but I think Just in the middle of games in the middle next to a mascot at a bit of an angle Not fully in Go on Let me get another Mexican wave Oh no I mean again it's a long standing tradition in another part of the world it's been going for decades however it's one of the worst things that's ever happened in football.

19:40Does it just mean the game's crap on your feet, a Mexican wave, doesn't it? Did that start in Mexico 86? It did, yeah. Is that what it is? And it should have stayed there. Yeah, OK. Yeah, game's gone. Put it right there. So the next one is the 4-4-2 formation. Oh, I miss it. That's always game's back. I mean, that's never game's gone. Because I'll tell you what, that is the formation that always comes back. Yeah. It always comes back. It will, yeah. Every couple of years, everyone does it now out of possession. I think the 4-4-2 was most used in the best era of Premier League football as well.

20:10Every club had to have four really good strikers. Rather than now, where you can't even find a decent number nine, if you're... What do you mean, the four strikers? Well, you mean like, if you have 4-4-2, you need two backups. At one time, we had Berbatov, Defoe, we had Keane and Darren Bent. That is mental, because now we've got Dom Selenheim. Is that all the same time as Tottenham? Yeah, it was around that era. It might be slipping slightly, but yeah. Liverpool would have had would have had Suarez and no he didn't have four strikers you must have had four strikers Peron Fowler, Heskey Lippmann was once in 2001 you can't keep I just it's another I think the four strikers thing is a myth and I go back to Man United with the 99 it's they did that for them I know what I'm saying is people say it was a deliberate play it was I'm not having it it's still back it'll always be back 4-4-2 right what next

21:10Roy's favourite Bovril yeah Bovril it's never going out of business yeah it's it just feels tradition doesn't it yeah yeah the weirdest thing when you think about it isn't it but it's alright would you have Bovril outside of football no you wouldn't it feels like a football thing doesn't it yes I remember it it used to be as obviously a bit older than you flab but as a kid you'd get it but I remember going to Shrewsbury in the FA Cup and he was selling it so I had it because he hadn't had it for years and it wasn't great but it was freezing cold and it warmed you up is that when you got beat yes alright I think you were still supporting us no no I'll tell you no because we were going on a cut we were obviously playing for that was about I'll tell you what season that was that was 0-4-0-5 no 0-3-0-4 that was the season you finished 4-8 no no before that we still had Rooney because Rooney played we got beat 3-1 Nigel Jemson scored 2 2002-3 we had the white kit It's only January 5th.

22:04Ryan Lomai played up front for Shrewsbury. Kevin Ratcliffe was the man of it. Ratcliffe was the man of it. Jemson got through. Nigel Jemson was still going. OK. They had four strikes. James Park, Bovrow. Next one is short corners. You know my memory of short corners, where short corners started, right? And I always remember this. And it was Peter Ease at Everton. I always remember the crowd. I was only a kid. The crowd getting on his back. Like, really. everyone just wanted the ball in the box he was the first person I remember always going to take a short corner the crowd going mad no I think a short corner when something obviously when it works you think of Arsenal end of last season maybe the start of this season I think a good short corner if it comes off you can tell the work's been done rather not being the first man I'd rather see a goal from a short corner than a ball just going into the box and someone adding it it can't be gone can it no it's fine it's fine games back no issue it's well in there isn't it well in there it can't go can it I mean it can that's all of them McCarthy it can it can it can that's it for today's segment of games gone games back see you next time

23:28I'll tell you you did do great last weekend was Brighton. Matt, been an honoured to you? I have actually. You look well, you look well. Got one in just before the win. Same colour as your tracksuit. Yeah, it wasn't great. Before we talk about Arsenal, like you just said, Brighton were a different class. I thought from minute one until the last, they were first to everything. Every drill, every tackle, every header. Didn't let us get into any sort of rhythm. Obviously the manager's doing press tours now, talking about it. and saying how he beat us. But on Arsenal's side, it's very difficult to pinpoint any tactical errors or patterns because it's not a commonality.

24:13Arsenal losing is not common. Arsenal losing by three goals is really not common. We can tell you that. I've got it written down here. Arsenal had not been three goals down in any Premier League match since May 2023. Right. And the last time we conceded three goals was in December 2023. So I think it was simply down to complacency. I think we came in way too invulnerable. The players and fans and everyone around the club, I think we sort of felt at one point that we were a little bit invincible, like going to Sunderland away, nicking three points there without conceding and Napoli and Chelsea.

24:50And just this momentum led us into a bit of invulnerability. And that was a real reality check that actually could be beneficial in the future because it showed them that if you dick about and come into a game thinking your shit doesn't stink, you will be punished in the Premier League. Remember last season, Liverpool started the season, I think they won the first six games and then they lost, was it Crystal Palace we lost away was the first one and then it just sort of went. Now, I don't see that happening with Arsenal, but there was that feeling, isn't it, as you've just said, everyone's saying Arsenal win the league, no one looks like they can even score against them, never mind get a result against them.

25:28And it showed as well with just little things. To talk about some sort of tactical things that we noticed, obviously the midfield was way too easy to run through. I think we really missed Saliba's presence in the box. I think we missed Ben White on the right. He changes the dynamic going forward completely. And Timber being in there, we weren't anywhere near as ruthless going forward. But the complacency of little things like letting them shoot from distance because we've got David Ryron goal and they score two absolute worldies. Little things like that, that actually, if we weren't so good and keeping so many clean sheets, they might have closed that down because, you know what I'm trying to say?

26:04Yeah, yeah. But in terms of what you're talking about there, I think the big news with Arsenal in the break already, Arteta's just signed a new contract, hasn't he? I mean, I know you think this is your time, this is your, you know, little era, if you like, to get your hands on a few trophies. Is he a used best place to do that? Have you got the best man for the job? Do you see him now as one of the best managers around in the world, in Europe. You referred to him a couple of weeks ago as the Don of the Premier League. That's the sort of aura that he's walking around with at the moment. And I think that he feels that as well.

26:35I think that he's... The Don? You called him that? Your words? Does that kind of remember? Oh, that was on the back of a... I knew what games he was playing on the back of your decision at Sunderland when he's making sure no referee gives a penalty against Arsenal for the next two years. Well, I'm just saying, and you refer to Don and I think that he's got that monkey off his back now where everyone would say he's a great manager but he's not won anything and he's won it now and now, like you say, it's the time to push forward and we're in an unbelievable position. These games can happen. I don't think it's about the loss, it's how we respond to the loss and City having a great start.

27:15I'll be interested to see how they react to losing. I think the biggest change in thinking as a manager, for Arteta he goes and wins the league and now it's not could it should this season I think people are going you should win the league because everyone else is changing managers everyone else is changing squads Arsenal made a few signings of course but they've got a pretty balanced situation they've got a group who now know how to do it and they did it in a different format you know it would have been pleasing for me as a manager if he came out and said yeah I ripped up my philosophy because everyone hides behind that nowadays and he could have said yeah I ripped it up because he wasn't going to win the league and we did win it that's brilliant management for me when you go right hang on we've got to change this to win it.

27:53But now it's not could win it. Now I think it should. That's a change in mindset for the media. It's a change in mindset for the fans. It's a change in mindset for everyone, including him. He probably, straightly sounds around, probably feeling a bit more pressure than when you could win it. No, I disagree completely. I think that last season... Is that because of your management experience? No, I just remember. Well, let me ask you. Last season for Arsenal, it really was, I think, all or nothing for Arteta. I think if we hadn't won the league, given the position we were in, I think he probably would have been gone.

28:24The pressure, he wouldn't have. You don't think so? No. You don't throw away a guaranteed second. Assuming he would have came second, you don't throw that away for a risk. Yeah, you're not getting sacked coming second. But I get your point a little bit. So there was a lot of pressure on you. People would start going, hang on a minute, you spent a billion quid over four and a half, five years. Fans alike, there would have been some, but not second. But if you'd ended up finishing 4th or 5th, then people would go, hang on a minute. Do you know what I mean? Even the board would have questioned Given the position that we were in at certain times, it would have been an absolute disgrace if we weren't to go on to win it.

28:55And he was under a lot of pressure going into certain games. The North London derby after we dropped points to Wolves, everyone was, you know, the away end was a little bit tense. And there were times where we thought if we don't win it this year, he's got to go. And I think that the pressure really built up and now that's completely gone after we had lifted the Premier League. So I think there is a lot less pressure this season. We've got that monkey off our backs. We know what it tastes like. we know what it feels like to win I think that we will do it again but these little blips happen Are you worried about Man City?

29:26Are Man City looking better than what you thought he would be? Because I think most of us in this room now would say for me Arsenal and Man City are a level above everybody else right now in the league I wouldn't say I'm worried about them I was certainly more worried about them in the past you know now we know that we can beat them to a title it gets rid of that a lot and obviously Pep isn't there but City have started really really well Like I just said, I'd be really interested to see how they react to dropping points because they haven't done that yet. And I think that when that eventually does happen, there will be people saying that was coming, the goals.

30:01I know what you mean. I think you're probably best judging a team when they do have a couple of losses in a row. How do they respond to it, like you said? Rather than anyone can win five in a row and be buzzing. Do you know what I mean? Anyone? I wish. Luke, your team's won multiple titles, haven't they? Arsenal have just won the one. I mean, this complacency that's coming, that didn't happen too often at City. Do you think that could be a problem for them? Yeah, I don't know. I don't know if it's complacency, but yeah, I don't think it's going to be easy for Arsenal to win the league. Like I said, maybe there is a mentality shift, but I do think it's a lot harder to retain.

30:34You've never retained a Premier League title. Ever. And now the expectation is that you're going to retain a Premier League title, which can be very difficult, especially when you're trying to win the Champions League. You're trying to pick up a League Cup, an FA Cup. I think it is going to be very difficult for you, but that's not to say you can't do it. I just think it's going to be maybe a lot harder than people we're looking at in the summer. Can I ask you both? Go on. I know it's so early to say, but who would you have your money on? For me, like I said, I think Arsenal should win it. But that doesn't mean they're going to win it.

31:02There's a whole different ballgame between should and gonna. So for me, Arsenal start as favourites, clearly. More because of all the other teams changing. Not because of the manager, not because Arsenal have suddenly become bad or anything. Just because with all the change and all the... not upset, but Carol will tell you, you're a new manager, new thoughts. Marenska's maybe similar to Pep, but he's going to have his own way, his own style, his own man management, his own, even your tonality of your voice, everything changes. New players and all that. So I think that's why I put Arsenal favourites, so it's theirs to lose, in my opinion, for that reason only, but that doesn't mean they're going to absolutely win it.

31:37I think Liverpool will still get stronger, personally. I'm surprised by him. I don't know whether we're going to go on to Liverpool, but just quickly, I'm surprised, because I really like what he was doing. and Bourne's playing hard, fast football, and he seems to have maybe changed. You know, sometimes, Cara, I think managers are going to a new job, and they think, I can't quite do that. And I think, why? Go and do it there. I think he's trying to do it, just whether you can get the players. Yeah, change of culture, change of environment, change of workload, and all of that. I think they've still got a chance.

32:04I think Man City, without a doubt. So my point is still that Arsenal, because of all them factors, should win it. But I must reiterate, it doesn't mean they're going to win it. But on paper, they should win it for me. I felt City would have a chance if Rodri stayed. Because even though Pep is like a legend, sometimes when a manager's been there that long, sometimes everyone always expects us to fall apart because we always remember Arsenal with Wenger and Ferguson. But sometimes, even though Pep is such a legend, sometimes just... You've even got to look at slot in Liverpool. In your first year without Klopp, everyone was looking at fourth, fifth.

32:35You go and win the league, and maybe it fell apart a little bit from there, but you still, in that immediate season after, won the league, and you can't sniff at that, can you? I think it's used to, I was so big on Rodri because I think he's so good so I thought you could win at City I thought you couldn't when Rodri went but I must say when I saw you at Old Trafford and sort of the midfield that day they sort of went up in my estimations not because I didn't think they were good players Enzo and Anderson it was just the fact that the personality they showed was a big thing for me in terms of going there and wanting the ball and playing and I think Arsenal will be so desperate for the Champions League if it comes to sort of March, April.

33:15And I always think if there's a Wednesday night game away in Madrid and you're playing Saturday, three o 'clock away from home, is Arteta just going to put... is Declan Rice going to play on the Wednesday night and may not play... It's just little things like that. We've got beautiful depth. And one thing I wanted to add on... We didn't show that on at Brighton, did we? No, that's the thing. We were just outplayed. They were absolutely superb, right? But I want to add one more thing in saying... A lot of people have been saying that... Like Colombo? International break has come out. Look out, mate.

33:43He's well-known. Can you give me the old ones that are on? We'll get the old ones that are on, we'll get it. Going into the international break, a lot of people are saying it's a bad time, but I think it's the perfect time because Arteta will want to sit on that. And he actually said in his press conference that that should never happen again. So Arteta being the sicko that he is, we'll probably watch that game every night and make sure that will never happen. Yeah, of course it will. I called him the dom, you called him the sicko. I know it's what he'd prefer.

34:15In a recent survey, 69 % of football fans would fear using a defibrillator. But using early CPR and a defibrillator can double the chances of survival in a cardiac arrest. Skybet's Every Minute Matters campaign with the British Heart Foundation is aiming to help football fans understand that there is nothing to fear at all.

34:40I'm the governor I can do this I can handle this, I can do this Come on This ain't rocket science, is it?

34:54You're not nervous? No Come on, the other guys are already out there Let's go Here we go What time do you call this, lads? OK, one dummy to a pair, or as I like to say, man-to-man marking.

35:11Good. Right, lads, if someone's unresponsive or not breathing normally... Call 999. Yes, it's your job. Call 999 and send someone for a defibrillator. What if I make it worse? Make it worse? He's in cardiac arrest. What can you make it worse? Just following the instructions. Start CPR.

35:38Turn on the defibrillator. Unit OK. Touch pads to the patient's bare chest. Don't touch the patient. Press the flashing shock button. Shock delivered. Is that it? That's it. These guys are tough. But using a defib needn't be. told me there's nothing to worry about.

36:11Next up, Manchester United. Adam, it feels like at this stage of every season, where we announce sort of the first international break, Manchester United are in the news for... Manchester United are always going to be in the news. Well, they always will be, one of the biggest clubs in the world, and rightly so. but a lot of the time it's negative, isn't it? Yeah, it is. Obviously, we've started the season off terribly and I think we deserve a lot of the criticism that's coming our way. But over the last couple of weeks, I was kind of thinking of United and how when you compare it to Chelsea, for example, Xabi Alonso's coming, new manager, brought in a lot of new players and stuff and they can go three or four games without winning or playing badly and no one really speaks about them.

36:56And Cole Palmer can stick in five non-existent performances, score a hat-trick, and then everyone goes, oh, he's the best player in the world and stuff. And they kind of get away with it at Chelsea. There's none of that furore and outrage around the performances. And obviously, United are a much bigger football club, but I feel like at United, it kind of works to our detriment if we do have a bad time. It's like, oh my God, it's the end of another manager again, where maybe the truth isn't always that. Maybe it's just the case of giving them some time and allowing them to develop, but it is worrying and it is starting to feel like how it felt towards the end of Amarim and how it's felt towards the end of other managers.

37:32And I hope that's not the case because I do like Michael Carrick. And the performances haven't been great this season. But if you are a stat or some of the underlying stats kind of suggest we're underperforming how we are playing in terms of goals and results and stuff like that. So I'm just like, I'm kind of hoping after the international break it improves, but there's no expectation to that, which is disappointing. I did a newspaper column a couple of weeks ago on Michael Carrick and like it always happens, no one really reads the column, they read the headline. Nor do you sometimes. No, but it was seen as like I was having a go at Michael Carrick when it was actually the opposite.

38:11And when you're saying, I feel like, you know, like I managed a go, I think it'd be ludicrous to get rid of Michael Carrick. And the reason I say this, and maybe this is where people think I'm having a go at him, In my mind, I don't see Michael Carrick as the Man United manager. I almost feel like he's in there doing a job for the club to get them through a rocky period and almost then pass the bottom. Now, if that's me being disrespectful to her, I'm not meaning it like that, but he came in and Manchester United needed calm. They needed not being at a circus, not being the banter club. He did that amazing.

38:48His results have been unbelievable since he's come into the job over the long period. and he got the job on the back of that but the fact he got them in the Champions League brings the money Man United need to be a Champions League club again it's not about what am I going to win the league this year it's like calm down last year it was false the fact that you finished third you had no cup games the carrot coming in had a big effect on the supporters he needs another season of just making sure you get the Champions League that's the way I see it and then it'd be a case of a manager who you think okay, one of the top managers about who could manage a club at that level.

39:24I don't think the idea of changing Michael Carrick now or in the next international break is just, it just needs to be, just relax, just let him. Yeah, I agree. It's just that United is almost a basket case of a club, right? There's always headlines, there's always issues. And you look at the stuff that's going on with the ownership and Ineos and everyone at the moment, no one's happy with them either. They've lost a lot of goodwill amongst the fan base from when you come into the club immediately and you sack half of the people there, the local people that are working at the club, and then you try and force fans out of the club, season ticket issues, people getting banned left, right and centre.

39:59All of a sudden you lose the goodwill that you maybe would have had because you're just not the Glazers right at the start. And I don't think Ratcliffe and Ineos are there to make money. I don't think you buy a 20 % share of United to kind of make money. I think it's probably like one of his vanity projects to try and get Manchester United back to where we once were. but you've turned a lot of the fans against you already. There's none of that positive. We've just made record profits, right? Sorry? We've just made record profits. Yeah, but they've also... No, I was going to say, it's not a basket case.

40:28It's a club, you're not a basket case. You've just made record profits. We also have incredible amounts of debt as well. Yeah, but they're obviously trimming down the business, trying to make it work as a business. Now, sometimes what changes on the pitch has to start somewhere. I'm playing Devils Africa. I don't know, by the way. But Sujima, he might be still looking at it and go, right, this needs sorting out off the pitch first before we worry about that, we need to get this as a business organised and structured and started properly. I'm not saying it was wrong. I'm just giving you an outside view.

40:55On the pitch, they might actually, you know, if you think of the bigger picture of owning a club the size of Man United, do you know what I mean? You can do it in any order, but getting it right on the pitch doesn't mean it's right off the pitch. Do you know what I mean? Sometimes the logical thing to do from when you're in the top of it, when you're in your helicopter looking down and you get a helicopter view is to go, right, we need this business to be working a lot better than it was doing. Not necessarily to make record profits. I agree. I don't mean he's got plenty of money. I don't mean he's bothered about that, but just get it running like a proper functioning business.

41:23That might be the case, but they're not going to go out and say that to fans, are they? Because it's not very sexy, is it? You know, all the fans go, oh, we're not bothered about that. We want to win a, you know, whatever. So it might be that, and then that will blend onto the football side of things. Now, on the football side of things, on their hand, well, Kerry's still learning his trade. Yeah, yeah. Do you know what I mean? You look at, I can't believe his name, Arbiola going in at Fulham. 120 games or something you're learning you trade but how do you learn your trade unless you get a chance to learn your trade Sage going in at Palace do you know what I mean so how do you get a chance to learn your trade under that microscope where you never kind of get a break that is the biggest challenge that is the biggest challenge of why I find it still peculiar that some of these managers get these jobs when they haven't got that much depth to their careers so far at that level by the way the size of club like that on the other hand of course he played there was a rep not a legend like Roy Keane but a top player you know what I mean so they probably think well he knows the club but that's why I'm going on the business side they might have thought what you sort of alluded to let someone calm just handle what's going on and let's remodel this over a sensible time period for all we know in the house they might be going look we know this might be a rocky spell we know we've got to get players in players out players in players out over the next three windows because if you were thinking about football logic which is hard for you fans but I of course I'm well aware of it been in it for years No, you don't.

42:41Logic doesn't win in football anymore. Pragmatism doesn't win. It's just the way it is. I'm not saying it's right or wrong. It's just the way it is. But as a business and an industry, if you were planning a proper shift in football in a football club, it's not one window. Every fan goes, oh, we're bored of these players. Well, I think we'll go on to Tottenham at some point. Yeah, I've bought these players. We should be brilliant. That's not how it works. If it weren't like that, every club would be amazing every year. So I wonder whether, man, you are playing the long game. That's my point. I'm not sure.

43:09I tend to agree with you on that point. But the trouble for me is where the Glazers of Lombard United with a billion in debt, right? We pay them dividends every single year, whether we're successful or not, and we're generally not successful in terms of that. And it feels like they're punishing fans for the lack of now, some financial now that the Glazers have shown. The Glazers didn't spend a lot of money under Sir Alex Ferguson when he was there. Like when Pep leaves City, there's a wealth of talent there in the club. the club set up to be successful with or without Pep Guardiola Manchester United wasn't set up to be successful without Sir Alex Ferguson and what they did was they gave the keys to the whole building and the budget to an accountant that knew nothing about football he's wasted billions or close to a billion in terms of transfer fees alone so then when you go, right the fans now need to pay higher ticket prices we're trying to force out our loyal fans so we can bring in more executive and hospitality and this, that and the other why are the fans having to pay accumulatively a couple of million extra when them clowns take out millions and millions on a regular basis so I think kind of punishing the fans for the mismanagement of the owners above them I think is a huge mistake because then like I've said you've lost the goodwill of the fans the fans are less patient with you when they realise their mates are getting turfed out of the ground and stuff like that sorry they'd be more patient if they weren't getting turfed out of the ground and stuff so I think they've kind of gone at it the wrong way Communication, they only seem to speak when things are going well.

44:37We finished third, they seem to speak every single time. And now when we need some clarity and we need some... And I know you've spoken about it before. Fans don't really care what people say. We always ask for communication. I think Cara said something like that before. We're going to get wound up regardless of what they say. But it is good to hear from them. I agree with everything you're saying. And this is something I know through what Gareth speaks about with Liverpool and what's going on. And I have friends and family sometimes with what's going on with season tickets now. and I've got a season ticket at Liverpool.

45:05I don't go to the game. It's a nightmare trying to send someone a ticket. Oh my God, it takes over your life. It would be bad now. But what you said there is, and I always think about this, fans always say, we want to hear what they say. We want to hear from the director of football. What do you want them to say? Well, give us some clarity on what the plan is because what has happened to Manchester United? He wants to win. Everybody wants to win. With an act like it. What I'm saying, OK, but my point being is, I hear that criticism about like, or it's only the manager who comes out and speaks basically when we get emotional and we're angry with our football club we want to hear them all speak and basically what we want to say to them you're crap why did you bite what's he going to say I agree to an extent but you come in and you've said you're going to be more clear and you're going to be you're going to have more communication with fans and then you don't do it in a time where a lot of fans are like what direction is this football club going in we don't know we see them flogging bits of turf off for 100 quid left right like what is the aim here for Manchester It is hard though because it is hard I agree with you by the way but I've just done it I spoke to Edith and CEO and people didn't like what he had to say and it's like how does he how did he speak do you know what I mean if like me looking from the outside at United they need some communication that says I think like what Jamie was saying we're not going to win the league for a couple of years we're trying to rebuild but I don't know how would United fans take that as a No I think Manchester United fans are happy as long as there's a positive momentum in the right direction we've just never ever had that And when a manager does get in a position, and this isn't just Ineos, look, glazes are the main issue, right?

46:33But when a manager does get to a position where they do kind of all right, they then fail to back him. Arle Gunnar Solskjaer got second, didn't get backed in the transfer window. Jose Mourinho got second and we went, here's Lee Grant and Fred. Good luck. It's like, do you just want us to be a Champions League club? Listen, I am not... Are you saying Man United managers don't get backed? In the right way. this summer, right, we needed a left back and we needed a striker. There's money there to be spent. Our wage bill is now sixth or seventh in the country. We're far behind the rest that are ahead of us.

47:06Where's a left back? We've been losing, using Luke Shaw for God knows how long. The guy's not fit enough to be a Manchester United player. Sorry, mate. Sorry, Adam. I haven't read them, but I'm sure I've seen something pop up yesterday on my social media that Man United's account came out yesterday or today. So they did come out, didn't they? So I've seen some of the headline figures. Now, when you're not in the Champions League every year and you're spending probably 150 to 200 million every summer in the transfer market, there does come a point where it's like, that can't happen every season.

47:39Do you know what I mean? No, I totally agree. But also the money is there to be invested. We could have got a left back or a striker if we wanted to. You can also get more proactive with selling players if you need to. And some of the players that we've brought in that they maybe can't sell, are their responsibility. They brought them into the club. So where is this best-in-class thinking and all this LinkedIn chat that they're always coming out with? They don't act like it. Do you know what I mean? Is that how they speak to the fans on LinkedIn? It's just, it's mental. It's like... You know, it starts from all of his fans.

48:08I'm quite intrigued by this because, you know what? I was just thinking out loud or thinking, sorry, as you were speaking. I'm intrigued by fans. If you like, they don't communicate. I'm not a fan. I just wanted the team to win me. Yeah, I see. You know, the modern fan, not all of you, But I get this feeling, it's like, you know, we should be kept in the loop. And I'm like, why? If you want to support the team, support it. I mean, I don't, I'm interested. No, I'm interested. I'm not saying you should, you shouldn't. I'm interested. So why, why, why would it important, right? I buy my scenes, they get really something.

48:35I need to know the strategy, the financial strategy, the accounts and everything, right? As a fan. Why, why is that important? Because when you're, I'm asking the question. When you're making decisions at a club, which erode the roots of the club and what the club stands for within its community and stuff like that, and you're losing the trust of the supporters and the people that matter. And then the supporters are also thinking, hold on a minute. You regain the trust, trust me. But the supporters are also thinking, hold on a minute, you'd rather I did one with my season ticket so some Tories could come in and spend 200, 300 quid to take my seat.

49:05When you're left feeling like, actually, I'm not really wanted at this football club anymore, but they still want my money every week and ticket prices. What I mean is, I don't understand what I'm meant to give you. If I'm an owner, I don't get what I'm meant to give you. Because their actions show that they don't really have an idea of what they're doing. and everything feels very scattergun. No, no, it's wanted you. What would I do as an owner to make you feel wanted by the club? Not send out season tickets. Ban them because they're selling tickets when they can't make a game. What Manchester United, as an ownership, what they're doing to the club, I'm not even a Man United fan, it's despicable.

49:42It's nothing short of disgusting. Banning season ticket holders. When you are saying we're trimming down the bills by sending out season ticket holders where it's the people's lives that matter. To us, that's a huge amount of money. But if you cut down some fella's wages, where it's like instead of earning 300 grand, you're on 250, that's saving far more money than the 2 million that's saved by trying to get rid of season ticket holders. So I'm sorry, it does matter to the community. So as fans, yes, we do want to hear, why are you making the working class people in the grounds as stewards not receive their bonuses, which 100 pounds to someone who's a normal working everyday person, that's a lot of money.

50:18But these millionaires on the pitch, why can't you trim down their wages? That's why it's frustrating. Hang on, hang on, hang on. People who don't know about football have changed a lot about football. I think that's where this suspicion comes from. We've had owners at Liverpool who sent Liverpool down a financial black hole and it took the fans to campaign and to organise, to get them out. So there's lots of people who've had older football clubs, tried to change names, even moved the club, turned it into Milton Keynes Dons, changed badges, do you know what I mean like just ripped up heritage and history and started running it in a completely different way that's why there's a suspicion and that's why we want to hear from them and when they say nothing that whole that gap is filled by conjecture by suspicion and you're like well what are they up to what do they want what do they want with my club is it just the money making Is it fair to say the majority of the fans are on continued investment even when investment is at a ridiculous level they still go why aren't we buying enough players and all that that's fair isn't it No because a lot of United fans I've never had a fan go, we spent too much money.

51:21A lot of United fans this summer actually defended their policy in not going to get£100 million signings. A lot of United fans were happy with not going to spend£100 million on Sandro Tonali. We understood the position we were in as a football club. No, but it won't be if they lost the first 10 games. No, but we understood the position we were in as a football club. We were not naive enough to believe United can just keep spending untold amounts of money. But when we're getting told certain things about the fan base or certain things about ticket pricing, and we also are quite clued up on the final.

51:50In a club like Man U, right, like the Sun playing Davos Africa, I'm just intrigued by all this. Because it's hard, you know, when you're a manager, you don't always get to speak to fans other than Q &As and usually they start battering you about the team. They do, you know what I mean? They want to know about the team, why are you playing him left wing and all that? I was like, you leave anyone off a corner. Yeah, exactly. I can't have heard that a number of times. I'm actually intrigued, you know, about all these things about fans care about this, that and the other. But one thing I definitely know as a manager and being involved in a lot of ownership sort of chats, I get your point about two million quid shame two million quid they wouldn't have done that to actually make money they would have done that because the good business run of the club needs to move forward if they're going to clean it out and make it work differently because two million quid at a club like Man U with all due respect to football is like a tiny bubble do you know what I mean is it not like a false economy though well the point is but then the fans will still be saying not in this case about Tonali but you know why aren't we signing so and so so you go well who's going to pay for it then no but who's going to pay for it we continually just can literally continually just plough money in.

52:48Who's going to pay for it is Manchester United. Manchester United are arguably the biggest football club in the world. They make record revenues, but because we have owners... Pay for a£100 million player, trust me. No, this is an important point, though. Because we have owners that have put us into such debt, the debt when they arrived at the club in 2005 was just over£500 million. That debt now is around£700 million in and around that and might be just off. But the debt's increased. Their dividends have increased every single year. They've been paying interest on that debt that's at Manchester United.

53:20Guess who pays that? The football club. They do it in their own country. It doesn't mean that it's right. It's a standard. Do you know what I mean? That's what they do. It doesn't mean it's right. No, I'm not saying it's right. I haven't said any of this is right. I'm just debating it with you. So that's what the show's about, is it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Manage the Sean Dice debate. I'm intrigued. I'm genuinely intrigued. because, you know, I do a lot with fans, obviously, and listen to them. And even more, I know I go around the grounds, as you do, and people chat with you, and you're in the pub and they have a chat.

53:49And it's quite interesting to hear all these things because I've never understood the ownership. And like you say, I think a modern fan gets a lot of stuff given to them. I really do. I'm just saying, from a lot of clubs I've worked at. So the idea of why aren't they able to communicate with me, I sort of go, but what communication? Because even if I think you mentioned it, what communication, right? So if I told you the strategy and everything, it all sounds brilliant. You go, right, they've communicated with us. If that strategy don't work, you go, But then you can hold them to account. But then you can hold them to account because if they say...

54:14You know what I mean? I think clubs are real... But if a football owner says, we're going to do X, Y and Z or this is the plan for the football club over the next five years, you can then hold them to account when they make decisions and stuff like that. It's such an odd business to get it right. If it was so easy, every club, all these giant clubs, because there's lots of them now in the Premier League, you know what I mean? Even the top six. You think in the European leagues, you ain't got top six big clubs. Do you know what I mean? You've got a top two or three. So these are a lot of big clubs.

54:45If it was that easy to get it all right and deliver and get the strategy and get the planning and please the fans and please the community and win games and turn over young lads and sell them for 200 million quid, they'd all be doing it. In my opinion, it's very easy to satisfy fans though. I think Barcelona were 2 billion pounds in debt, weren't they? A couple of years ago, I thought it was over 2 billion. 2 billion pounds in Barcelona football club where a couple of years ago, four or five years ago, 2 billion pounds in debt. And the fans still saying at that time, I remember reading it, why aren't we signing so-and-so?

55:14And I was like, you're£2 billion in debt. That's not our debt, though. That's the Glazers. It's£1 billion now. Get the leverage on the football club, and that should have been illegal when it happened. So, yeah, but, I mean, we've got issues with off the pitch. We've got issues on the pitch. Well, have you got issues with the man who runs this overlap, Empire, Mr Neville, by saying it was the worst 15 minutes is ever seen in Manchester United. That kind of doesn't help. It kind of leads into what I said about Chelsea, comparing Chelsea and Manchester United earlier. So do you agree with Gary or not?

55:47We lost 7-0 at Anfield. There was a lot of 15 minutes in that, which were quite bad. And that's not to say the performance against Fulham was good, but I feel like that hyperbole around Manchester United kind of just creates that tidal wave of negativity, which is very difficult to swim against for managers. Yes.

56:13Let's get to Liverpool. Gareth, it felt to me like the Bournemouth game, it felt a really big game to me going there. I was commentating on the game. I don't think Liverpool played particularly well, but it felt like one of those games where it was just all about the result and put to bed our worries, you know, thinking around the team for three weeks and we can all just relax and enjoy the next three weeks. how have you seen the start with the new manager the make-up of the team and where we are points-wise yeah I'm pretty good with it you know we're unbeaten in the league as Luke mentioned earlier we've progressed in the league cup we've got a good win in the Champions League against Atletico at home I think slowly but surely you're seeing the manager having an impact on how we're playing and what we're doing I think there's a lot to be positive about I think Jacke being an absolute revelation at centre half it's funny I was commentating on Sunday and I actually when you're commentating obviously there's only you in the comments I don't know whatever you know I can hear what I'm saying obviously everyone at Rome is listening and you know when you think how many times have I said this you're always when you commentate you're always getting a bit paranoid about have I said that too much or am I repeating myself and I kept speaking about Jackie through the game and actually at one stage I think I apologise to people at home if I'm going on about this too much because you know when you're looking at someone you're thinking the reason I don't want to get two carries because it's only six games and he's a kid but you know when you're looking you're thinking he looks really good this lad he looks really good and I'm thinking don't want to get too over the top and then I said something like this Liverpool team is made up of lots of ins and outs over the last couple of years and in the main the players who've come in are probably not better than what's gone out that's hence why we've dropped off a little bit but he looks a big improvement on karate but there was about 25 minutes ago and you know you think I know he's going to become a mistake you know what I mean so I actually apologise I said if I'm going on too much about him but he does he looks the part doesn't he yeah and he looks the part and I think Virgil's game's improved you know after having a bit of a dip being alongside someone he trusts he looked incredibly happy to be handing that man at the match award to him do you know what I mean it was like that I gave him by the way his face was lighting up wasn't it Virgil's it was like, I know this, he's like first of many, there you go, have that.

58:37And Araujo as well, I think he's been brilliant and he's someone I think a lot of Anfield can relate to. He's game, isn't he? He's game, yeah, he works hard, he gets stuck in, you're not easily getting past them, you know, he's competitive, he's physical, he's big, he's likeable, you know, he's living locally, which was a thing last season about lots of players, the manager, etc., not living locally, he's gone and lived locally, he's having extra English lessons, he seems to have got stuck in, early doors and there's a lot of Liverpool fans saying to each other you're not meant to fall in love with a lad who's on loan because we haven't even definitely got him yet but lots of people are already sold on him they really like him and look there's still stuff to improve as well obviously I think defensively we've got a lot tighter three clean sheets in a row now and I think that's been a good basis to build on I think that's been a bit of a priority for the manager to tighten up and you think about last season what was it 18-19 defeats we were a soft touch so many times you know psychologically it looked like you know it was that easy to sort of burst a bubble and all the shoulders had slumped down and the goals would keep going in the back of the net I think we conceded more in the Premier League last season than any other Premier League campaign Liverpool so you know he's tightened that up straight away it's the other end of the pitch really where it's still not quite there he's got all this attacking talent almost overloaded with the attacking talent hardly any left footers all sorts of swayed to one side and it's making that bit click which I think is next for him but yeah I'm pretty pleased with where we've ended up I agree with everything you've said and in some ways when you're talking about what he's sort of fixed and what he needs to click I thought it'd be the other way round I thought it'd be we're looking at the attacking play because as Sean just mentioned the way he plays his football it's get it forward press, high energy might leave yourselves open at the back it's almost looks like it's flipped early on but you mentioned it and I've obviously had my say on it where I think Liverpool could maybe what they could do certainly go and follow how do you see The front two, because the front two in Izak, the two most expensive players we signed last year.

1:00:54Izak's now getting the goals. He's coming into it. It's still not happening for Wirtz. We, I mean, I'm not going to say any more on it, but I mean, where would you go with it? How long do you give this? I wonder, is there other options in the squad to maybe change this? Yeah I mean I think It's easy to say that he hasn't turned the numbers He obviously hasn't turned the numbers And I think some of that is a little bit unlucky I think he does create chances I think he does split the fences Not all the chances he's created are being put away obviously And his numbers could have been better at it But we'd have better finishing there I don't think he's really linked up with Isak I think on Sunday I don't think they hardly pass to each other And you could see in pre-season and the manager was trying to get them two to bond.

1:01:40He was playing them close together. But once the real stuff started, I'm sure I'm talking about how that doesn't often translate. Don't think it has. But to me, what I like, and I always say this as a fan, when you're watching it as a fan, the first thing you want to see from a player every time is put everything in. Put everything in and go from there. And he's definitely putting everything in. Is he putting too much in? Possibly. Because he's coming top of the charts virtually every week for the distance he's running around the pitch. He's popping up at fullback and trying to press players. And I'm watching and thinking, I like the endeavour, I like the effort, but I want to see you doing it up there, mate.

1:02:19I want to see you doing it in the middle of the pitch, in the 10 position, putting it in the back of the net, creating chances, that kind of thing. Players can get fearful of that. You know, when the expectation's so big on a player, they can get fearful of being in the right place. You know, they often hover around the box, as you know. When they're flying and they're absolutely, you know, purring, They're in the box every time the ball was in there. You know that. And when they're not, they sort of just edge away from it. Maybe, you know, maybe this might take him pressure off. He's scoring.

1:02:46Might give him a chance. I mean, he still looks a bit boyish to me in the Premier League. I still think he looks, you know, just on my eye, just visually a little bit boyish in the way of plays. But that could come with, well, knowing the Premier League and learning about the Premier League. You know, some players go in handing gloves. Some players, it takes time. You know, they're building to the Premier League. If you go back and watch his Leverkusen highlights, there's all kinds in there to get excited about. Why doesn't that translate to the Premier League? Well, against Bournemouth as a prime example, I think first couple of minutes, he gets absolutely taken out.

1:03:20And I think that happens a lot. I think other sides look at him exactly the way you have, Sean, and say, get at him, leave one on him early on, he won't fancy it. And it's weird because I feel like he's got that toughness that you want to see, that fight that you want to see out of him, that is maybe lacking a little bit at times. I feel like it is in them, because I remember going to Sunderland away and we all knew what was coming and it was almost like they'd sat down with the players saying, you know what's coming here, you know they're going to be physical, you're going to have to be physical back.

1:03:50And I swear down, that night, Bert was physical back. He was using his body, he was putting little elbows in, got done for fouls a few times himself. That bit's gone again now. And I'm like, you need both, mate, to survive in the Premier League. Like you see him in the Champions League, where you're coming up against the European opposition, maybe refereed slightly different as well. He looks more comfortable then. In the Premier League, where physical stuff is allowed to pass a little bit more, I think he struggles with that. I mean, my thing, and maybe this is probably not for this show, but maybe it's been you in as well.

1:04:25When I picture a team, and we can talk about all the tactics and the minute details, but I think who's going to score the goal who's going to score a goal now if you just think of how Liverpool played under Klopp I will say 4-3-3 but it wasn't it wasn't wingers really out wide it was almost like a front three that were narrow and you're thinking those three are going to score and everybody else is there to almost support that you know Salah was almost like an inside forward Mane the same and Firmino now when I look at Liverpool it's slightly different and a lot of teams are playing like this now almost like 4-2-4 where every team Teams got to be two.

1:05:03Everyone wants wingers now, but wingers who stay really wide. Now, on the Torres Strait, if wingers stay really wide, you're probably thinking, can they get 10 goals in the season, 10, 11 goals? Whereas the wide players in the Passavol or the wide forwards, we're probably getting 25. So that means your front two have got to get a lot. So, OK, you're centre forward in any team, and no matter what the system, you've always been thinking, if you're a top team, he's got to be getting 25 goals, 30 goals. it's not so much where I think where Vert will get the numbers from but he very rarely gets any shots in the game or chances or he doesn't look like scoring so I think it puts so much pressure on the centre forward and now at the moment he's scoring goals but I don't think your wide players are going to get the goals that we had from our players before just because of the nature of the positions they're going to take they've got chalk on the boots type of thing it's up and down the line isn't it that's my worry with Liverpool and Wirt is he going to give you the goal threat or the numbers because you're not going to get them from those other areas as much as we've had before Do you think that changes because of the loss of Trent and stuff like that who would have allowed your forwards to be more central and more inside In some ways this probably sounds silly Wirt is a replacement for Trent because Liverpool had Liverpool's most creative player was a fullback he was a freak it was not normal so when Trett was leaving you can't then go and go you can't go and buy a right back who does that that's impossible but what Liverpool didn't have was a De Bruyne an older guard they had a workman like him in field but the creative spark was there you know that show you come up against that Liverpool team yeah I mean but even Klopp's journey don't forget when he first came over he'd come over and they were passing teams to death but couldn't win anything so his stats if you look down the years were getting longer longer more progressive football rather than just keeping it.

1:06:59When he first came in, he was like 800, 900 passes a game. By the end, they're playing 600 passes a game. So you realise you can't win the Premier League like that. And then they're the most impressive period by mixing the game. They could hit you on counter, especially with Salah. Van Dijk get out of his feet, knock it over the top. He breaks the back line and all of a sudden they've stretched the pitch. So different dynamic now. But football's forcing things into a different dynamic because more teams do a low block, as they call it. You know what I mean? So therefore, how do you break it? How do you break that?

1:07:25You only need incredibly clever players. the only ones I've seen really a man sitting there pump David Silva best I've seen do it when they're packed everywhere and he just finds clever passes throughout all the mayhem unbelievable how many teams can do it now if Liverpool have changed slightly maybe the manager wants that because Bournemouth were more like that like you say more white players playing wide still asking them to do a shift but when they could get wide they'd get wide cross it you know well clever players now they pass into the box they're not a cross like we're playing just put it in there you know they'll pass it we did yeah of course well I did you didn't have the talent No, you get my point.

1:07:59So, you know, there's a cleverness in the way they do it, but I agree, if you're going to do that, you are going to go with the wide players. You do need, well, for me, that's when you are talking back round to 4-4-2. Which is coming, that will come round, by the way. 4-4-2 is on its way back, you trust me. I said three years ago... It's never gone away. Well, I said three years ago, I said the big centre-forward's coming back round. It is, because of the block defence. So how do you break it? Crosses and edges will come back round, and that means you're going to get two in front, and when you get two in front, you've got more chance of scoring you watch Spain did it in the World Cup Spain in the World Cup think about it what do you both think about what do you both think about Isak because I'm intrigued about there's a lot of focus on Vert and I know Isak's scoring as you said but when I'm watching from the stands like I think the manager's already sent out some fairly public messages about he wants us forwards to work hard and he said like you know I don't care if you're coming off on 70 and you're done in I would rather you you know you put everything in yeah but they kept saying that about Haaland mate and he kept scoring and the game's coming but with Isak I watch him from the stands and I think you're not moving you're in the centre half-back pocket with Isak he's almost being like Harland right now and you'll say what's wrong with that Harland Harland for me is the best goal scorer I think I've ever seen and probably I'll ever see he's just unbelievable but I thought when and I actually do still think this is the case I think Isak's score is almost he's a good player he's not just a goal scorer he can get involved I've seen nice touches here and there he looks very wiry very thin and I sometimes think he doesn't put himself about that much to be honest I actually thought as well this season he'd get a lot more touches because I thought here I know who wins the ball goes forward because remember last season I was saying the same as Harland doesn't touch the ball and if he doesn't score you think he hasn't done nothing that hasn't happened this season which I thought would which is a little bit of a worry and I think will come but when you're talking about Iriola what he said about Isaac off the ball I always think that is the biggest challenge for any manager trying when people talk about a step up so you go from Bournemouth you go to Liverpool it's getting the players who cost the most money on the most weight to do the stuff they don't want to do which is off the ball and eventually even with someone like a Salah even Klopp had to bite the bullet a little bit didn't he it's like this fella's like he's not going to what am I going to say you know it's like okay and then Slott comes in we give you a bit of a free roll and you probably may have this tactical role but it's a bit like because we don't want to be fighting do we about you coming back and it's him trying to get those players to do that work I mean Sean maybe obviously you haven't probably well I think Salah's a good example you know but if you're playing for Liverpool and you're in midfield and you know the power he's got to do that they get over and cover don't they you know that when you play to carry it with some of the best players right to play you just know the runners and riders you know I'm at centre half I'm looking and going right I know I'm going to have to cover him because he's going to do that but for him to do that I know I'm going to have to cover it do you get what I mean so that's what makes great teams they all learn about each other's roles so I think that's slightly different but when coming back to Isak you know he had such a topsy-turvy start to his Liverpool career then he got injured I mean you still find him real fitness for me true fitness you know that grounding you know call it 40 games a season fitness you know what I mean so I think there's a lot more to come personally and it's still relatively early in the season so to get his goals I think he'll be quite happy and I mean you're right about some players they learn how to do things that they don't want to do and some players don't do the things they're meant to do you know they just won't you know and that's a manager's challenge I mean Pep for me his genius part of his game is not actually the way they play he's getting a load of fantastic world class players who are like mini companies to nose point in the right direction and if you ain't got the ball we're running and we're working.

1:11:54That for me is his most strong. Same as Spain winning the World Cup. You look at that team. They weren't singing to the fans and all that, were they? They were just running their rears off every game. I'm serious. They weren't doing all that nonsense. All bullshit. Spain, when they won their game after they drew the first one, they won the second one. Did you see them? They just clapped the fans and walked off. And I thought, they're going to win it then. That sounds mad. That brings me to your show. You get my point? It's like, you know, all these journeys, they take a bit of time. That's my point.

1:12:18Isak will take a bit of time. But he's come through a really tough period I think there's more to come from him you know what I mean there's more to come from a lot of players it's very early in the Premier League I think it's just when you see Lewis Koumas like play against Spurs in the league court and you know he's ran his arse off and he's like chasing everyone down and all that and you know you're coming out and you're in the pub afterwards and you're like can someone not just show Isak a video of Koumas and say why can't you do that mate because you know that lad can and you never do that and okay Koumas get the goals that he gets the well that's it that's exactly There's one point about Ireland.

1:12:51I remember a couple of years, was it last year? Well, it seems every season. Oh, yeah, I had seven touches. You go, I mean, he scored two. And I go, okay, keep him in the team. You lot, I guarantee. No, I mean, it's in Sydney. The rest of the team were going, we know what he does, right? They're not now looking. Now, I'm not saying Eastside's built that name yet. But if he keeps scoring, I guarantee the rest of the team will go, right, we know what he does. And the manager will have to go, right, we know what he does. And yes, he won more. And over time, might get a bit more. But obviously, in Ireland play, we all have.

1:13:18And I've been waiting, as a manager, I've seen him from the stands, I've got any danger of just looking like you're going to try. Then he goes, pop, pop, pop, and you go, oh, well.

1:13:28He's not quite there yet, but that might be his role. I mean, I remember Gary Lineker, people forget that, in our generation. He didn't do much outside the box in the grand scheme of things, but my goodness, if there's a chance comes, it's like he grew speed. You know, he just got even quicker as soon as the ball landed with a chance. You know what I mean? he's still finding his way he might become that type of player like a Harlan in his own form so I don't know I think it's still early and Wurz I mean I've been critical of Wurz actually because I don't think he spends enough time in the box and I think he does look lightweight but the Premier League is a funny league it can catch players out and then they suddenly it's like the penny drops and they suddenly go I think with a lad called Stephen DeFore at you know Burnley he had 57 international counts for Belgium the first six months couldn't get his head around it the physicality the running when we come up pre-season was like a different animal and unfortunately he finished the injury what's a player trust me if you'd have seen him play for a season the last season we got finished in Europe he was unbelievable because he got it but it took him months and he'd had 57 games for Belgium Was it a conversation you would have with him about would he say I'm just finding this Yeah well I can only give him as an experience for me probably the best player I've seen in a Burnish in the grand scheme of things trips is but him for a short period was unbelievable and you talked to him I remember I remember signing him we signed him for Anderlecht went to watch him had a chat with him and I remember saying I was going Steve you know it's not going to be like this I remember seeing his stats I sat with him and he was running like 10-2 I said Steve you could play until you're 57 mate in Belgium you'll be running 10-2 a game a midfielder I said that needs to be 12 and he's going yeah you're looking at me like I'm mad and within about a year he went yeah you're right his first game was Liverpool we beat him 2-0 with the lowest ever possession possession, I think it was 19%.

1:15:16He needed oxygen, I had to take him off for 60 minutes, he got stretched off, just poured him off into the, you know what I mean? Just literally got him in the dressing room and just poured him on the floor with a mask off. Not literally, you understand? But all these things, they can change things. I know like Man U with our running stats at the minute. Trust me, if you're going to compete in the Premier League, even that alone for some of these players who come in, they can't figure it out. You know how it's constant, the physical demand and the pressure physically constantly my point is with Isak Glambadar he's not I still think he's got more to come with his general body fitness do you know what I mean yeah no I agree but when you I was thinking about because there's been a lot of talk about Virt in the last few days and you're saying oh the Bundesliga and you're thinking well if you can't buy someone from the Bundesliga what league can you buy them from I don't think you can do you know what I mean so how many teams this season because I thought about Arsenal actually and I don't know if this is a lot of team actually just buying from Premier League clubs yeah but I think I think that's a masterstroke now yeah I really do When Arsenal signed...

1:16:14Gamara. Yeah, yeah, Gamara. They're not signing a maybe. They're signing someone they know knows the Premier League. Consa's the same. I think they're brilliant signings, mate. I really do, because I looked at... I mean, if you want to win the league again... Yeah. Because they're buying game-ready. Fact game-ready. Not even a maybe. But some of the foreign players, they come in, and I've spoke to a lot of the foreign managers by then, the top foreign managers. You look at how many didn't make it who came in at first. You know De Bruyne who spent half his first season on the bench? De Bruyne. £50 million they spent for him.

1:16:45You look at his stats so not half you'd probably know but maybe maybe he played 25 games for me. He subbed him. Takes time for a lot of players. I remember like Ancelos Sané coming in it takes a time it takes a season. Yeah and that was De Bruyne. Even Rodri as well. Rodri's the exact same. Well he was a bit different he put a lot of miles on the clock early compared to De Bruyne but you look at De Bruyne and look at the player he became. Even Kevin De Bruyne £50 million if they played for him if you look at his first season played 25 games I think to be fair he did have an injury yeah you get my point though you'd have him on your pitch wouldn't you but other players it's like hunting glove they get in the Premier League they're a bargain they look like they've been there all their life

1:17:40to festive accents for every room in the house. Wayfair has what you need to make Halloween feel like magic all in one place. Because the best Halloween memories aren't made in just one night. They're made all season long. Shop Halloween decor now at Wayfair.com. Wayfair, every style, every home. Hi, this is Monica Reinagle of Nutrition Diva. Today's show is sponsored by Nature Raised Farms. Grocery shopping can be a little overwhelming, especially if you're reading labels. and in my opinion chicken shouldn't be complicated which is why i appreciate nature raised farms it's chicken that's just chicken and their lightly breaded chicken nuggets are free from gluten dairy and soy look for nature raised farms on your next grocery trip and feel more confident about your choices hi i'm nick co-host of the best one yet you optimize your workouts your portfolios and that rando startup idea that hit you in the middle of the shower but if you're not hydrated, you're already playing catch up.

1:18:38So we keep a stash of Liquid IV in our studio. One stick mixed into 16 ounces of water is clinically demonstrated to hydrate faster than water alone with three times the electrolytes of the leading sports drink, plus eight vitamins and nutrients. Whether you're traveling, exercising, or podcasting, the best business news ever, Liquid IV makes it easy to stay hydrated wherever life takes you. So shop now at liquidiv.com. Liquid IV hydration that goes wherever life takes you. one team who might not be in the Premier League next season Tottenham there you go first joke everyone having a joke good I mean that's ridiculous that is ridiculous you are bottom of the league aren't you yeah I know you have finished 17 the last two seasons haven't you yeah but I've been sitting here quietly and biding my time being very patient and I'm being laughed at the minute you don't get anywhere about Spurs that's why we love you Flav Flav how worried are you right now I'm fine I'm fine I mean this is the problem this is Tottenham have been in transition for three years right and it started with the sort of the dismemberment of the of Postacoglu's team and then Daniel Levy being shunting out of the door then losing Parathji as our sporting director then a new kind of impetus You were all asking you were asking for all those decisions right Yeah yeah I was 100 % I had no issue with them in isolation but when you have to put them all together, that level of transition I'm learning, it results in upheaval and the lack of performance on the pitch.

1:20:09All those things, everything that's happened at Spurs has needed to happen. And Daniel Levy, for a long, long time, did a good job at building Spurs, and to the point before... A good job? An amazing job. I was going to say. Right, sorry, yeah. It serves a bit more nut. Yeah, he does. He's done an amazing job at Spurs, but it got to a point where we were spending at a level far beneath what we should be spending compared to other clubs that we consider to be our rivals. There was some work done by someone, a mate of mine called Anatole, and he looked at the spending between 2015 to 2025 and at the amount of players that were bought for more than£50 million compared them to the other big six.

1:20:49And Spurs' were at about£535 million and Man Utd, Liverpool's and Chelsea's are at£1.6 billion. So what that tells you is that while Spurs are consistently spending money, they might buy three players for£20 million rather than one player for£60 million. So that kind of investment means that we can't compete. But their model under Daniel Elievi was one of the best in the Premier League, their financial model. Almost on point perfect for the Premier League as a business. 100%. And Potts got close to winning it even with that business plan. That would have been Nirvana, obviously. Do you know what I mean?

1:21:24But he's the closest they came. so I know their numbers and they were unbelievable it was it was incredible I'm not saying that's what funds want I'm just giving you a fair measure but over 20 years you started at some point you're starting thinking is Daniel Levy going to put his foot down and are we going to be ambitious and it was clear that that was never going to be the case so it's interesting now that the Lewis children because it's not Joe Lewis it's the kids that are running and they're in their 60s that's mad to say but his children are running the football club and you've seen the level of spending and ambition and the aggression in the transfer market, which was completely different to when Daniel Levy was running the football club, where it was reactive to the situation.

1:22:03So you can't, as a Spurs fan, in any way look at what we did in the summer and be in any way disappointed. However, I think that that level of upheaval in the squad makes it very difficult to make things gel on the pitch. And we've seen that in the first five games. What makes it right, though, the money, the level of money or the player? because that's why that's why I always surprise me now with fans you know like across the board this is generalising massively to be fair but 100 million oh yeah brilliant player I see him interviewed on Sky going oh yeah brilliant player but he's really technical I'm thinking you don't even know they are I think obviously we we overpaid for Tonali and we probably overpaid for Fernandes but we needed to get those players in and Savino and Marmuch yeah fine but the point is It's a lot of money.

1:22:55As a fan, do I want these players coming through the door or do I want us to be frugal in the transfer market? No. I want to see Spurs be ambitious, and we have been. And I think, actually, if you look at the performances rather than the results in the first five games, there's been stuff that you can see and football is trying to click. This conversation has gone full circle from what you mentioned earlier. Well, what I was mentioning, actually, was... So you're sort of saying, yeah, I want them to be ambitious, and that relies on money. So they plough the money in. Then you go, yeah, but why?

1:23:24There's reasons. Then you go, well, because you said you want to be ambitious, but then the club, you know, under a billion in debt or whatever. Yeah, I've got no issue. This is the vicious circle of fans, ownership, teams, managers. That's how difficult it is. That's my point. It's so difficult to get it all right. Do you remember me? You remember me just asking the question about why fans want communication with the club from the club Braba. At the beginning of the season, we had a letter from the owners of the club, the Lewis family, and we had a letter from Peter Charentoon, who's a non-exec chairman.

1:23:54And both of them were recognising the failings on the football pitch for the previous five to ten years. They were frying Levy under the bus a little bit. Did that make you feel better? It made me... Not necessarily it made me feel better. Did you feel better? No, but there was a reason. They shouldn't be... They shouldn't be doing that. No, no, they should be doing it because Adam... I can't see that. No, I'm not saying... Read through the lines. Failings, you get to a Champions League final, you really won the league, you're all... Reading through the lines, right? they were sort of saying this isn't our fault this is Daniel Levy right the reason why we are now going to invest they were separating themselves and Daniel Levy that's what I meant by throwing them under the bus right but what you said earlier Adam about if they say if they make a statement then they can be held to account and that's what Peter Charns and the Lewis family did they said we are going to do X Y and Z so that if a year's time from now they haven't done that then you can go you said you did that why didn't you that's why the communication Well, they said they were going to start spending money.

1:24:52They said they were going to be ambitious. They said you're going to see a different, more aggressive Tottenham Hotspur. It's all going to be fine.

1:25:00Are you worried? I look at this on the outside and he's got a great reputation, the manager. Pep Guardiola speaks so well of him. So many people in the game do and players who played during the job he did at Brighton was fantastic. But it's fair to say he's a combustible character, isn't he? He's fiery. Listen, I like that. He adds something to the Premier League. You know, his press conference, he's going to say something. Would you all worry if this... You've got a manager who you think could be really good for the club, kept you up, is attracted players. There's talk about Man United going for some of those players as well.

1:25:35You know, Tottenham got those players. Are you worried this could all just... One morning you wake up, breaking news, De Zabie's gone, he's just walked out. Because it feels like he is that type of character. I think it's a little bit unfair. And I thought that of him before he joined, to be fair. So were you unfair as well? Sorry? Were you unfair as well? Yeah, I was unfair because when I looked at it a little bit, he never fell out with any football club that he's ever left. He didn't explode and walk away. Brighton, as I understand it, Brighton and De Zerbe had a... He's had quite a few jobs, isn't he?

1:26:04Yeah, short-term jobs. Most of them... Short-term? I mean, no shorter than most managers these days. Don't worry, look at me. I didn't mean that, Sean, sorry. Sorry. So I think that generally he's walked away from clubs with relatively a reputation intact and a good, healthy relationship. So I think it's a little bit unfair on him to say he's an explosive Italian and therefore it's going to all go wrong. He's on the pitch having a go at his own. I'm not trying this to have a go at the film. I like personalities in the Premier League. He's different. He'll create headlines and do news. To say he's not that type of character, he's on the pitch putting the fingers on.

1:26:45players having a go with them? He'll only explode if he can't get it right and I think he's starting to get things right at Spurs. You can see, certainly against Villa and against You're bottom of the league. Right. Don't worry. Villa and I'm completely aware of where we are. I wish people said it weren't my jobs. They said he's getting it right. I'm bottom of the league. I would have took that. I would have took that and caught that. I think there is a process that you can trust in this and there's no point after five games in the league of losing your mind at this stage. What's wrong with having a bit of patience in the manager.

1:27:16Yeah. I mean, what is your other option, really? You know, he's come in, he's done well, you think you've got a good manager, it's really poorly, but I mean, that's... Just give him time. His first five games for Brighton, he lost two, he drew two and lost three. I've got to say this because I've got to defend him because he's a friend of mine, but people lost faith in Thomas Frank very quickly. Me personally, no, hang on a minute, me personally, I was just talking to the fan, I'm watching them players and I'm going, that ain't about the manager. I know Thomas Frank, what he's doing. I'm looking at the group of players and going, wow.

1:27:47I've never felt less inspired watching Spurs. No, it's not about being inspirational. It's about a man who knows his work. There's a stat here, Sean, it probably retates a little bit about what you're saying. It's probably not about one manager at Tottenham. Tottenham have not come from behind to win a game since November 2024, 58 matches ago. That is not a manager thing, that's what I'm saying. That's a mindset thing. Yeah. Managers can instigate change, but the players make change. You know what I mean? And that first club like Tottenham. So perhaps, De Zorbi actually, to be fair, De Zorbi at the end of the season said I need, there's only 11 or 12 players that have the right mentality.

1:28:28I have currently. And therefore you saw this massive change. So maybe in that group of players it was... They're this side. They're 12. So now he's got 24 then. No, he's only done 12. No, that's right. I'm way too much. Is that not wrong? You said, And on that couch about an hour ago, the massive influx of players creates, you know... No, no, I said I was playing Devils, I'm not here to say what's wrong. Well, quite clearly, I'm here to do. That's what I'm here to do. So we've brought 12 more players in and they've all sort of suddenly developed this Tottenham mentality. That's why we can't...

1:29:03No, no, but he must decide them. He must decide them. He must have had a fair say inside them because I don't believe... Certain managers don't, right? Certain managers now don't have a say. But does Erby going in there on a massive contract, massive years of contract, you know, renewal and all that, what's the word, you know, safety? I don't believe they've then brought 12 players in and said, oh, sorry, you're not going to say. I don't believe that. No, no, who won't? So, in theory, you can't get them all right, but out of the 12, if we went even half, that means you've got 16 runners and riders.

1:29:3316 runners and riders, what you said, he's got 12 that he wants, six more, you shouldn't be bought in the league. With 16 runners and riders in the Premier League, at that level, who signed him for 100 million quid. No, I don't believe he should be voting the league. So what should we do? Well, you've got to get right quick. All right. That's what he's got to do. Because, you know, like I say, Thomas Frank wasn't getting that much time. And these guys have got quite a bit of time so far. You know what I mean? And he hadn't, you know, his record actually isn't that deep in the Premier League due to his games and his experience in the Premier League.

1:30:03So he'll still be finding out about the players and the Premier League. Premier League changes every few years. So it's already changed. So I think there's a lot of work to do that. I really do. but I don't think it's just on him by the way it's Herbie I think the whole club I just think I don't know I just think the structure Daniel Lieber whatever you thought of him rightly or wrongly there was a structure when you were talking earlier about communication he laid down this is what Tottenham is this is what we do and everyone knew it and the fans sort of knew it because if you remember there was a period they were buying all the best young talent weren't they years ago yeah yeah and all that you know they went through that period and the lads from Forrest Dawson yeah and Reedy and people like that and it was clear to all the Tottenham fans Now I don't think it is clear.

1:30:41No, I mean, it's not. It's just the start of something. It's a bit of a mishmash of what's going on there. Tottenham were institutionally Daniel Levy's, right? We were a club in his image, and you're right. It was clear what we were, a team that was never going to be ambitious enough to win the league. The Pochettino area. Well, it nearly did. Yeah, but that was lightning in the bottle. We bought players that all suddenly worked. Harry Kane came out. That was lightning in the bottle, mate. I think that's good management. Great management from Pochettino. Good recruitment and good management, me, I think.

1:31:09that period and the pot it was one period yeah that was a good it's a couple years and 25 of Daniel Levy's and they would work they would work then so no I think Tottenham's really one of the most interesting stories currently in the Premier League I think for what's gone on there in the last few seasons someone's just come to me then Sean I don't want to try and put you on the spot yes I'll take it sorry I thought you'd go

1:31:33inside voice inside voice sorry did you get offered the Tottenham job to keep them up when David came on I just remember it there were just some phone calls made outside phone calls yeah we'll live at that outside phone calls what United not direct to me phone box not direct to me

1:31:55let's get to one of Sean's former clues we'll get to Everton Baz we'll bring you in there was a lot of probably would it fair to say I can get around the transfer window that time and people talking about the CEO of Everton, you had the Harrison Armstrong situation with Forrest coming in and Moyes being left with one striker who started the season really well. But results change, emotion change, feeling. How are you feeling right now going into that first international break? Yeah, feeling good. The invincible season's still on. You left Everton out before when you talked about unbeaten. Now, listen, it's been a good start.

1:32:35I think we had to beat Ipswich, I think, if we'd have not beat Ipswich, I still think people wouldn't have been, people still would have gone, we haven't done what we should have done. But I think the win last week was a good one. It was a big one. Won both, obviously, the Carabao Cup games. So it's going well. I mean, in some respects for the manager, this is where he's in. He's Pep Guardiola mode. It's where it's like he's got a small squad and he's got to use it. It's where Moyes is fantastic at getting everyone together and it's us against everybody else. but he was left a little bit you know some of our owners there you know and I think the problem as you were saying before why do the fans want to know I think we have to know you've been at our club so you knew I had to become a financial expert on PSR which is a load of nonsense points deduction and all of that shit I think fans have had to become involved in it so I think Evertonians it feels like and speaking to them the big discontent was not only did we not get sort of the players we needed but we let people go before we got people in and that was on the owners but not guaranteeing monies until they come in and stuff like that not only I know you're saying it's expensive and it is but if you say you're a manager and you get told you've got to I know it wouldn't be you but we've got to sell a hundred million pounder plays if you want to bring a hundred million in you sell a hundred million and then they go actually you're only getting 60 of that you'd almost feel like well we wouldn't have gone after him then we'd just rather kept well I'm just like the difference is bring 100 billion in the spending.

1:34:06No, no, no, no. Yeah, I get it. You're at the worst time, obviously, for it. But I think that's where the anger come from. But I think it's like anything, isn't it? Results settle everyone down, don't you? I think the hardest thing, though, is recruitment is so difficult now. Whichever order you're going to do, well, the obvious one you're right is to buy first. But then if you are trying to manage the company, I don't know the financial situation. I know Moisey, obviously, but I don't get involved in this business. I just, you know, courtesy call now and again, and everything alright type thing.

1:34:35But you know yourself, if you are spending first, that's the best way of doing it because you're guaranteed you've got them in. Yeah. But then if you have got to get them out to balance it, that's when owners can get a bit unsure. When it's left to the last day though, it's the last day and obviously everyone would have had ballad. That's so tricky though. I mean, honestly, it's a minefield now. You know, everyone crunches right away. Agents get involved. You know, different clubs get involved. Everyone's pushing and pushing and pushing. It is very, very difficult. Because you think about it rationally, You know, you've got all them weeks to do business and it comes down to like the last three days and it's like scattergun.

1:35:08It's a nightmare. Well, we had it, obviously, you just mentioned the Harrison Armstrong thing. I mean, that breaks three days before the window shuts and, you know, all that's gone on and this conversation. And I guess if it wouldn't have been for David Ornstein really releasing that story in the morning of the game, we don't know how far that would have gone because obviously the fans have seen that on the day and gone, we're not having this. they're saying this is not happening and made the feelings well known I think there's two ways of looking at that from a business perspective if you're overseas and you see an academy player who's come through the academy play less than 20 games and someone wants to pay 40 million for them you might think if you sell him it's not going to do any damage but that's where the communication has got to come in and I think the Evertonians obviously made the feelings well known he's a good player I gave him his debut Harrison he's a really good I think he's got a really strong chance and becoming a real top player.

1:36:03It's still early yet, but I can see why the clubs were sniffing. And I can see why, you know, the cheeky one, but maybe because of PSR, because of the history of Everton, homegrown talent, they might have thought, you know, it's a bundle of money for the PSR and all that sort of stuff. I didn't think they were going to get him, by the way, Forrest being the club who were chasing, but he's got every chance. I'm pleased he stayed there. I think he's got every chance of being a top player. It's early yet, but I do. What's it like managing Everton, Sean? What are the sort of the difficulties? Well, I took it probably at its lowest depth.

1:36:34So, you know, it was a difficult period. I'm very proud of it in a funny kind of way. As you know, I've spoken openly about it. Probably the hardest job I've done. And probably sort of, in a bad way, in a way, the most rewarding. Because it was so heavy lifting all the time. Every week, every week's press conference was like, right, what are they waiting for me to trip up on now? Do you know what I mean? It felt like that every single week. But the couple of periods where we won games, we beat Liverpool, of course, that kind of lifts everything, you know. And we went tic-tac-toe that week, I got beat by Chelsea 6-0.

1:37:06And it was baying, you know, all the press can't wait to get me in the room, you know. And then we went tic-tac-toe and won three in a week and it all looked different and that's sometimes football, you know, that's the way it is. But no, it was a very difficult period and Moyes-Yanel's in a completely different place, you know what I mean, than the club are. In a good way and I'm certainly pleased for them. Never had a grudge

1:37:27change, the team needed change when I come out and I said, you know it's one of them you can sense it in a group you know, they start flatlining and the weight of the crowd sometimes gets so heavy on them you know what I mean, so they probably needed a change at that time, so it's probably the right thing anyway and Moyes is a safe set of hands obviously a safe pair of hands, sorry, great fella that he is as well and took over a group, they were ready, they were fit, well, you know what I mean and added his bit to them to get in the next place, but then the demand that Evan was as high as I've I mean I haven't been at the end of big clubs because Evan is a big club but the demand is massive there I mean that's what I was asking you about I'm always at the end of last year there was murmurings you know and you look at the season if they did that season in reverse and finished how they started every other Tottenham would have been going yeah brilliant season but at the end there were murmurings to get him out almost not loud but you know a little underbelly that's the demand at Evan it's a massively demanding club massively demanding club it was just a finish that's why seven games and you need two wins in sevens to get your...

1:38:27Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. You get three points, that's where... I don't think that... But it builds quickly in Everton, you know. I mean, I win hero, zero, zero, hero virtually every week. Not many times hero, it must be said. You said it. You know what I mean? Yeah, exactly, yeah. It's our take, it's told you thunder. But, you know, you beat Liverpool and all of a sudden it's like joyous, you know what I mean? You win the next one, it's joyous. You win the next one, it's joyous, you know what I mean? But to keep that going was nighed impossible. You know, the amount of money we were bringing in compared to spending it was nighed impossible to do that.

1:38:54We all know, even as football fans, player, manager, football's up and down, is a rollercoaster. When you said, is Everton almost the biggest rollercoaster in terms of emotions? Well, it does, the clubs that I've been at, but I've only had four managerial jobs. But I mean, it maybe feels like this at a lot of clubs. But the tolerance level there was in real short supply. And yet, weirdly, the best thing about Evertonians is when we got the points deduction, it was almost like a regrouping. You know, they were so powerful, for me included, by the way. It was almost like they got rid of any opinion of me and went, right, let's give him a chance because he's just had the rug pulled from under him.

1:39:32You know what I mean? And it sort of weirdly bonded everyone. And then the team started and, you know, we started building a momentum and a feel and it just got more and more powerful, you know. It was against the world. Yeah, sort of was, yeah. And I think Evan can be that kind of club. That's the sense I got, you know, the People's Club and all them stories from the past. and I knew some of the ex-players, Rats and all them and Reid, he was brilliant for me, you know, brilliant voice, big Nev, I don't know, Nev, he's brilliant for me, giving a very honest opinion, a very balanced opinion. So a funny kind of club, but yes, I think it was quite extreme in my thinking on football of how quickly it can, everyone's pointing in a right direction and then everyone's not.

1:40:11Very, very, you know, two results either way and it changes. I think other clubs just a bit longer sort of view of that, you know what I mean? but I like saying I didn't enjoy some of the knocks obviously but when we were high I mean when when Decore scored the most awful period of my career it's the hardest week I've ever had in my life before that last game with that amount of weight and pressure but when he scored I've never heard a crowd like it it's the loudest noise in the state I've ever heard and they've been in some massive ones you know Wembley it's Pompey you know 80 ,000 and all that 40 ,000 there going off and I'll keep that one you know what I mean I'll keep that one for myself just quickly dead important this season that Brantwight Stacefish has got back in the England squad but obviously both centre-backs but then Keane was terrific last year wasn't he the tune of the fans get on him he was terrific I'm just saying Jared's like he's unbelievable but what have you thought about him I'm a massive fan of his and I think a couple of years ago when you get asked on the back of a tournament someone must have been on the back of the last Euros someone says to you what's the England team at the next World Cup or something like that and I always put Brantwight he's had injury probably exactly he gives you a nice balance and I don't know if it was the Euros there was definitely a tournament where I thought he should have took them there or something but he'd been playing too Norris almost one of those ones who you know is not going to play number 26 or something yeah he's the future and yet I was really pleased to see him he looks he looks I remember I remember his debut I was commentating on his first game he came on the way at Wolves he was the manager and I always remember he got the ball he tried to switch play and he went out to play it was his first touch for Everton I've seen a few of them well I mean I've been there we've all been there haven't we I always think when a young player comes on I think it's your job when you're talking about football to make we've all been there you look after them and I always remember that being his first game but he looks a top player and if he stays fit he's keen you've probably got a chance of Jimmy was a big loss when I was there as well because but Jarrod got injured and Jimmy Jimmy Gardner Jimmy was coming on leaps and bounds and he got injured and that he's just got an evening squad as well hasn't he he's back here called him the other day Jimmy Gardner's classman yeah he was a big loss when I was there someone just needs to tell Moisey it's Jimmy Gardner not Jimmy Gardner he constantly calls him Jimmy Gardner you're like who's this Jimmy Gardner fella because it sounds great right Ellie Nottingham Forest how would you assess it because it feels I I I watched your games before the last one I watched the full Aston Villa games we did that on Monday Night Football watched it into Liverpool as well and it felt like it was sort of each game it was getting better probably should have beat Spurs probably a bit unfortunate at the VAR goal and there was that little bit of a come down at the weekend exactly that's what everyone feels is that second half of the Aston Villa game it felt like we keep being told that Glasner needs time and I think Forest fans are doing really well to respect that he's proven himself in the past and we were like oh this is it starting but it felt like we were just very what's the word up all up no downs and it came as a bit of a surprise I think we were surprised by the team we fielded I was surprised that it was Endoy and not Jesus I was surprised that I know wasn't on the pitch I was surprised I didn't come on to the pitch so it really did feel like a dip and what Glasner said afterwards was really interesting he spoke about expectation and he said about the fact that there was the expectation to just beat Coventry because they're Coventry, weighed down on the players a little bit.

1:43:54Obviously, I'm not in the dressing room. I can't comment on that, but you really want to hear that from your manager. It's a bit worrying in terms of mentality. I think a lot of us fans all felt like the game was going to be a tough one, especially at home. We haven't scored at home yet. We haven't won at home in a while. So we all thought it was going to be tough and we thought it was going to be a really boring game. And then when Morgan Gibbs-White missed out on the England squad, a lot of Forest fans were like, right, he's getting a hat trick. He's going to show him what's what. And it was almost like the opposite happened.

1:44:25And don't get me wrong, I don't think Gibbs-White had a terrible game by any means, but I think you could tell he was almost trying too hard to prove himself. Like, yeah, Tuchel, you should have me in. And it just, don't go wrong, we're fine. It's nothing to think, oh my God, we can't beat Coventry. Our away form is much, much better than our home form. It's probably going to be like that for a while. Glasner's building something. He seems to have a plan. He seems to be very honest about when things go wrong and quite open with the fans about that. So I'm feeling all right. I think we're going to have a good season still.

1:44:57It's just a blip. And you know what? Coventry got their first goal. They wanted it more, I think. They really fought for everything. Do you think you'd be worried when I tell you your next four games? Arsenal, Man City, Chelsea and Brighton. Yeah, that is horrific. But you know what? In a way, I can't see... They're at home, so your next four at home, I should say. Yeah, that's not ideal. But I think we almost will rise to the occasion. I think we often meet teams where they're at. It doesn't matter who we're playing, we rise to it. It doesn't mean we'll necessarily win, but I don't think we're going to go to all those four games and get battered just because we lost to Coventry.

1:45:38I think we are genuinely building something. It was a little bit of a blip. I think Glasner is honest enough to own up to his mistakes. That's a very strong word, but learn from it. Because he is new here and he's learning and we can see what he's building. So I still feel comfortable. I think we will get a few points out of that. And we like beating Arsenal at home. Sean, you've come up against Glasner as a manager. Does he feel like the right fit at Forrest? Well, I thought I felt like the right fit at Forrest. Obviously, it wasn't. No, I don't know what is the right fit at the moment at Forrest.

1:46:09He went through four monies in a year. So what is the right thing? You know, Nudo had great success from playing not the Forest way and then every fan said it was brilliant and they're getting 35 % possession. So that's not the Forest way, but it was successful. I quite liked it myself because they were successful. You know what I'm like? Didn't bother me. I thought they played it very well, what they did. And then change a manager for whatever reason, that manager, and then the next one comes in, then I go in, then the next one comes in, and now this one's the right one. So I don't know what the right one is at the moment.

1:46:37So it's going to be time will tell, I think. And I just think that's fair. I go on well with Oliver, to be honest. I spoke to him. I think he will get it right, but I think it is going to take time. But then time is the hardest thing to get yourself. I've done five or six games, everyone thought I had it right. And then five or six games before the end, they thought we had it wrong. So I mean, we battered walls, 35 % there, 35 % there's gold. Only the second time in Premier League's history that's ever happened and you lost. And we drew it and I got the sack. So how do you know? How do you fit the right manager?

1:47:09I think some jump off the page. I think we can all agree there's some jobs in football we go yeah we get that like Mureska's a good show actually you know you looked at it and you thought who's out there yeah it could be them it could be them but Mureska yeah that fits with the gloves I'm not saying it won't fit but I think it is going to take everyone a bit of time to let his ways get into the players get into the fans get into the city and build something and if but like you said the next one of games I'm looking going was it five points in five games I'm looking going well hang on a minute I was getting that and getting hammered so that will change quickly That's what worries me.

1:47:41Because when I went into Forest, they were saying, but we say ourselves as a top six club, and I said, you're miles away from the top six club. Not because I wasn't trying to defend myself. Because when I got asked to go in there, because I was in a position, I've done it right for myself, I don't need the job. I wanted it because it's Forest, but I didn't need it. So I told you the truth. I said, you're miles away from that. To be a bona fide top six Premier League club season after season doesn't just take one good season. That takes five or six of building the right players, building the right system, the right, mentality, the culture, the environment and that's going to take time and I think Oliver hopefully will get time What would be success?

1:48:17You broke Lazner in basically I think when you think of what he did with Palace maybe you're thinking could he be the guy who wins us a trophy in the next two or three years. So what's success this season for Lazner? I think this season I think all Forest fans will be pretty happy with mid-table, very happy with mid-table and a good cup run I know one of them's already gone but looking to the FA Cup, I think, like I say, Forrest won a trophy. We are a big club and we have proven that. I mean, we've got two stars for a reason. I mean, look, Brian Clough, we are a big club with tons of history and we've proven that we can be up there and then we just sort of let everything fall apart.

1:48:53And I think it's really interesting what you say because I don't think there is such thing as a right fit for Forrest. I think there's wrong fits. And with all due respect, that was Ange Postokoglu. I do feel sorry for him in many ways because that was never going to work. But Forrest, the way we're set up isn't about having, I don't think we're going to have a Pep Guardiola or anything like that where we have managers for seasons and seasons on end. I think it is just going to be a few quick, look at how we got promoted. It was Stephen Cooper, Stephen Cooper, Stevie Cooper came in literally that season, a few games into the season, got us up.

1:49:25No one gets a long time at Forrest and that isn't necessarily a bad thing. That model can work because as long as there's stability, and that is the question in terms of the way ownership is and we do love Maranakis as Forest fans we're just looking for those quick wins will that get us as a top six club in terms of the phrase the big six which we all know I hate probably not but it can get us in and about that can give us those memories that we never had before it can give us in within a shout of a trophy I mean look what happened at Crystal Palace they had Glasner in and they won three trophies in like two seasons so that's what we're looking for and then maybe we can build on it from there but there is no right manager I don't think for Forrest.

1:50:06There's no right manager. OK, we'll take that. You take that. I'm going to have to. Well, listen, that's it for today. That's another episode of The Fan Debate brought to you by Skybet.

1:50:27This has been a Global and the Overlap production.

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