Rooney: Management, England & Family Life | Overlap Exclusive

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0:35We're going to interview Wayne Rooney. He's invited us to his house. When you name your Man United teams, you know, who's your best, centre forward, Wayne Rooney's up there number one. No one near him. This is a unique player. One of the greatest players that Manchester United in England have ever had. He was a Brian Robson Roy Keane and I can't pay any a higher compliment than that. A fighter, warrior, never give in. I always thought when he was playing, what are you going to do when you finish playing football? The adrenaline and the energy that he had every single day, he was like a jack in the box.

1:11He never stopped talking, never stopped moving. How was he going to replace that dressing room? But look, he's having a moment where he's left Birmingham and he's thinking, what am I going to do next?

1:27Is this his land? It's one of those houses that in like 200 years, I'd say. It's the way he really used to live here.

1:37Fucking hell, it's nice.

1:42Show me it.

1:50Jeez. There's a few people watching and training, like four or five sponsors. It was Rene's wife and kids. You need three, four, five players in that classroom to lead that team and still asking questions like, who are the leaders in there? Setting big rockets off, one under the gym to the other. You mean fireworks? Yeah. You'd light them and you'd hold them and then it's going off at the place. You could see them like, what is going on? I was 16. Would you get down in the last few months when you've not been actually doing something? Yeah, it's strange. We were very naive the last 20 minutes.

2:23I never felt we were going to score. You could feel a game just going away from him. I'd probably say he's England's greatest ever player. England's greatest ever player? That's some statement from you. I believe that. Do you remember the throw-in? Yeah. No, it's fine. Obviously, I was meant to block him and I've lost him, yeah.

2:51Did you think about your post-football career a lot when you played football? Towards the end? Yeah, towards the end. I think probably from Van Gaal on. Even when I was younger, I always felt I wanted to stay in the game from a coaching point of view, but probably started thinking a bit more seriously about it when Van Gaal came into United. I used to sit with Giggsie and Giggs used to analyse the opposition for Louis and he's sitting there quite a lot with Giggs while he's watching the opposition and just getting into it a little bit. So, yeah, I always felt then I wanted to do it. I was remembering Giggs, I used to speak to Giggs around that time, not about anything detail-wise, but he used to prepare an 11 v 11, was it like a Thursday, two days before the game?

3:32Yeah, so Giggs would take the opposition and set them up the way the opposition would play. So, yeah, he was good, to be fair. Did you have this idea before you became a coach that tactically this is how I see the game and then when the reality is when you get there with the players it becomes something different or would you stick to it? Yeah, I always had the idea and you have to involve yourself as well and you have to be aware of that and be aware of the changes but really when I went into Derby County I went in full-time managing in January with Deb Bottom and obviously fighting relegation and what I was doing for the rest of that season was adapting to the opposition every game and I'm thinking, I can't keep doing this.

4:16You need to have some way of playing until the players knew. So we stayed up and then in the off-season, I sat down, I was going through a lot of things and how I wanted my team to play. I always remember me as a player when I was playing in midfield, I used to pull into the half space and knew how difficult it was for oppositions to pick me up. so then I thought well what if I do it with two players if I have a player it was normally one side to it so I had a player in each half space and a player standing still when the ball is on the other side and then playing a 2-3-5 really teams do a 3-2-5 or I was doing a 2-3-5 to keep a high in I went in obviously spoke to the coaches explained to them what I wanted from them as well and from the first day of pre-season that's what we're doing and to be fair the lads at the time and I think it was probably a little bit easier because I had so many players from the academy who never played first team football and sometimes when you've got players who are a little bit older and they've got habits and stuff but you're actually teaching the young lads What were you like as a coach when you came home?

5:27Can you switch off? I can't imagine you switch off Yeah, I'm not bad You're not bad? To be honest I can switch off and initially when I get home and then I'll turn my phone off and I'll watch Saturday night tea or just completely stay away from football for the rest of that night. And then obviously the next day you're back on. But I don't think people realise actually how tiring it is for a manager. I've seen when Klopp said he was leaving Liverpool because he needed to rest. I was thinking, I've done this for like two years or whatever. The years he's done it for, it is tiring. It's the mentally tiring, right?

6:01It's just constant, yeah. It's constant of preparing for this game and the minutes finished, obviously even before you're preparing for the next game and so on to it non-stop Did you worry about finishing football? Did you ever think you know what am I going to do the next 30, 35 years of my life because obviously a lot of footballers have that all footballers have that same problem Not really I'm not I knew I'd never be doing what you're doing you're doing everything but I didn't worry I always felt I wanted to stay in football obviously sometimes like now for instance that's not always in your hands but I think at some capacity I'd want to stay in the game How long is it now since January 1st I remember when I left Valencia and it was a public annihilation I got at the time you didn't get annihilated but you got some criticism and attention you're Wayne Rooney so that happens is that first two weeks almost like how were you that first two weeks when you left first few weeks erm yeah strange because from nine really when I joined Everton till then it was the first time I've had like a break like that because obviously you have your summer holidays when you're a player but you're still and then when I left I think it was like a week later I went in DC when I left DC it was 24 hours but I went into Birmingham so it's the first time I've had off and then you're reflecting a lot you're thinking of things you could have done differently or you know things you maybe do better or whatever so you're overthinking and then I think to be fair you beat yourself up when you think about that around that time or just we're angry I've never been someone who blames people I wouldn't look at other people and blame them I think the owners are fantastic they will do really well in the future but it's football and when you go into the job especially now you go in as a manager you can get sacked we've seen it many times and I think of course you don't want to but that's part of the job that can happen and what's important is how you bounce back from that and how you apply yourself really you're like probably the ultimate positive person probably that I've ever played football with never even been with would you ever get would you get down would you get down in the last few months when you're awake it's the first time you've woke up in your life the last few months where you've not been actually doing something yeah it's strange don't get down I'm not over it because it's life and now I've got the opportunity at the moment to do a lot more with my children seeing me kids play and taking me to training and stuff like that but yeah it is very strange especially like on a weekend and like what's going on I went to the lakes last weekend clean the kids and it was so strange like there's football on and it's like it's a weird feeling Weird or strange in a good way or strange in like I'm not quite sure Of course you want to be there you know that's the buzz of football the thrill of football and whether that's a player or manager that's what I know that's what I love doing and you want to be around that.

9:08And obviously as a player, you're quite secure with that. Obviously, you retire, but as a manager, it's a little bit different, yeah. It is more insecure, not just insecure in terms of job, but insecure in terms of how it makes you feel. Do you feel I felt insecure when I was in at Blenheim? Not insecure, because I always believe in myself and I believe that I will be a top manager. I really do believe that. And it's the reason I went out to DC to manage you know it's the reason I went in at Derby as manager Would you go abroad again or drop down in the division Yeah it depends obviously what that is and whatever but yeah of course where I am in my managerial career obviously I've had a setback I might have to drop down that's not an issue for me at all My career as a player doesn't mean that I can walk into a top job as a manager and I have to put the work in to try and get there How do you keep your eye in as a manager when you're actually not in work?

10:09How do you keep the sessions, the tactics, the thinking, the game understanding? Yeah, it's watching football and obviously trying to get to as many games as you can. The game evolves quickly and a lot of teams, especially now in the League One Championship, you would have said 10 years ago, these teams are going to be playing the football or playing. you would have never believed in so I think the quality throughout the pyramid has gone better so I think it's just obviously constantly watching and also it depends obviously when you go back in what level you're at as well in terms of the messaging you're giving to the players You said you didn't want to do what I do but you were on the television for the Merse side derby why wouldn't you do that because to be honest with you listening to you speak particularly when you were getting into the detail of the sessions or working on strikers or talking about the game in terms of moves that players make.

11:11Well, you were good at it for a start. You speak with authority. And I think people at home, well, we know they liked it. Why would you not do that more? I know you might if you wanted to be a coach, but why would you really? Yeah, no, I'm not saying I wouldn't do that, of course. and what I'm saying is my main priority is to get back into management and that might never happen you don't know and TV I would do TV I would do it I've got a few more coming up I've always said what I don't really want to do is commit too much and then let people down I don't like doing that so if I'm doing it I'd want to be all in with a commit myself too much and then in two months' time, for instance, I'm saying, oh, listen, then you'd feel bad about it.

12:02You need three, four, five players in that test room to lead that team and I'm still asking questions like, who are the leaders in there? Every time United can see the goal, I think heads go down too quickly.

12:23How many balls have you got in that goal, by the way? Me and Phil must be defenders. Me and Phil were defenders at that end. The kids must come out here all the time. Yeah, they do, yeah. Do you come up with them? It's hard. Yeah, but the issue we have now is they're always doing something. so after school one of them is training or they've got after school clubs and stuff so they're always doing something so for instance my lad tonight he's gone to school this morning he won't get in until like after nine Is he training at United? Yeah Cairnton yeah Did you go and watch? Yeah I was there Tuesday I was there yesterday I'm there again tonight they played City in the same final on Tuesday beat them 2-1 so it's buzzing just go there did they?

13:07Yeah Do you know something? I've only seen the little clips of him on social media and stuff. He has got your... Yeah, he's my physique and... His style. He'll be taller than me and he's a goal scorer. He's in the box, he sniffs chances out and that's his game, so he's doing OK. Is he... I mean, obviously you can't remember yourself, but is he at that sort of level where you think he's got a chance? Is it too early? Yeah, I think it's too early. I think he's showing potential and good signs. So, yeah, he's obviously... He'll be in the United now for the next two years and then that's when they make decisions on you.

13:45So, you'll have to just wait and see. Are you tough on him? Are you tough on all the kids? Not really, no. I ask them questions. So, after training or games, I'll ask them what they think and ask them questions and just try and give them a little bit of guidance, really. Like, it's goal against City on Tuesday. as a forward you get told to run across the front post so he kept doing it so I said you need to be aware of who's in the penalty area if you're on your own you need to make a decision whether you go front or back so he was on his own and he pulled to the back post and the ball comes and he scores either just little things like that Is it hard to watch him sometimes in thinking that you're suffering with him you're obviously enjoying it if he's doing well No, I enjoy watching him and me 10 year old as well he's at United oh the ball for United yeah so I enjoy watching the games and it was a great game in the court fans to beat Liverpool 3-2 they went 2-0 down United and Kai scored to get back into it then they went to 2-2 and a player sent off no the other player sent off at 2-0 right and then Kai got Liverpool did it no United and then Kai got sent off 4-4 tackle straight red yeah so and then but he won the game C2 is he aggressive yeah he's aggressive in a good way so yeah he's he's doing well when I finish playing football do you think there's like a thing about 45 50 year old men 40 year old men who have kids they think or even like maybe older people think that young people aren't as tough nowadays as we were but I disagree with that I don't know what you think on it when you think of sort of like you know your kids now or young players now what do you think about that?

15:34I think it's changed I mean there's different rules obviously in the game now and it's definitely not you know what it was 20 years ago and some of the tackle duty and I don't think you're getting that and the game's played differently and you go and watch the kids now and you know every time the goalkeeper's playing out from the back and they're playing through the lines and and stuff and they're carrying on they continue to do it so So I think that's where the game's changed and evolved, if you like. So, yeah, it's definitely not as physical as it was, but in terms of tackling and stuff like that.

16:06But I think the kids now, you look at them, the bigger, some of the sizes, some of the kids, they're huge. It's interesting, you just showed me in your house quickly before we'd started doing this, and you said there's a boxing ring. And obviously you grew up and you obviously were boxing, and you said the kids wanted to fight. So you just get in there, didn't you? Yeah, no. Did they fight each other? Yeah, they'll fight, yeah. They start off messing and then it turns into... Are you in the middle? Are you like there? I can imagine... Yeah, you obviously stop them, but no, I think... With gloves on and...

16:44Yeah, yeah. So I think boxing's a great sport for discipline as well. So, yeah, and the kids will go in, they'll put the gloves on and they'll spar and... Do they go to a boxing club as well or do they just do that? No, they just do it here. You just want them to get tougher and more resilient? They love it. They love boxing, yeah. They love watching it. Doing it. They've all got their own shorts and get in the ring and spar, yeah. Me and Phil might have to come round. Me and Phil come round and start sparring. We missed our youth. We'd have been absolute... We'd have been better off, I think, in that boxing.

17:19But that mesmerises me, that. But I like it. you've got girls as well haven't you I know obviously but the idea of toughening them up we've actually got some of our best friends and their son boxes and they take it and I think I think it's a really good thing as a youngster I never box I think it's brilliant I've just been to Sheffield yesterday I went to Sheffield to the boxing gym there and just watching them train so they went out in the morning for a run then they come in and do the pad work bag work then they have the food you'd have a sleep, then in the afternoon sparring. Just to see them and the focus in them, it's unbelievable.

18:00Just coming on to you as a football player, what was your best qualities as a football player? I don't know, I'd probably say mentality. I think mentality as a player, obviously I could score goals and create goals and whatever. I like to think I always worked hard, as hard as I could, on the pitch, but I always felt I had a strong mentality. and obviously going from Everton to Man United you need that you wouldn't survive if you didn't have that This idea obviously everyone's searching for a strong mentality do you believe you were born with that or do you believe it was developed as you were sort of if you like coming I think there's different elements I think you can obviously develop it and there's a lot of sports psychologists out there now as well and obviously a lot more than when we were growing up but I definitely do think the where you're from the area you grew up in helps massively and obviously my kids growing up here are completely different to where I grew up so it's how do you have that balance and how do you try and get that where I grew up in into your kids so it's I definitely think where you grew up You look at the mentality of a team and I think about the current United team and I look at them and it's not actually a criticism this in the sense of, I think they're struggling, some of them, sort of mentally in terms of mentality-wise.

19:24And they're obviously talented players. They've done, can you imagine the thousands of hours that they've trained to get to where they are to beat United? So they're right at the top of the game. How do they become more resilient now as a team when you think the criticism, obviously, that they get, not just from us on television, but from the fans, obviously, with the way in which they're playing, the results are bad, the difficulties. How do you grow a mentality when you've got a team like that that's struggling mentally? Well, I think first of all, you need three, four, five players in that dressing room to do that, to lead that team.

19:56That's the one thing I'd say, I think, with Man United now, is I look at the team, I'm still... I obviously don't know, I know a few of the players, but you're still asking questions like, who is the leader? Obviously, Bruno's the captain of the team, but who are the leaders in there? I said this a few weeks ago with Marcus, when Marcus is getting stick for body language and whatever I think he's always been like that I don't think he's ever been a big talker on the pitch I don't think he was quiet with him when he first came with us yeah so I think he's always been like that I think when he's going to a tough moment or you want him to work a little bit harder maybe I think that's where some of the more senior players in there have got to demand that from him and that's the one thing I'd say which I don't see Every time United concede a goal, I think the heads go down too quickly.

20:49And you almost think there's no way they're getting back in the game. The Gaffer does his press conference when I said they wanted to leave. What's the goal did he that day? I'm sure the Gaffers had a way of him before training. There's a few people watching him, but four or five sponsors. It was Rene's wife and kids.

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21:50When you first came into the Everton team Who would be the people that you would Pull you in line Do you have any examples of when you were Moisey was really good for me He actually sued me When I left the club I left I hammered him When I left Moisey At the time how I felt what did you say do you feel disappointed do you feel regretful that you said those things about him yeah I spoke to him a few years after I left I called him up and apologised because the oldie again you realise why he was doing things what did you say at the time just I felt like he was singling me out whilst you were at the club or when you left yeah while I was at the club and he was treating me a little bit different to the other players in what way just in a different way I don't want to go into it now but just in different ways he was treating me one of them was you know he had me running around the local park by myself with the physio in and I think he felt he because it was new to him as well having a player who was getting all these headlines and so for him to figure out he was a young manager at the time as well and I was new to him as well so but when I look back I think he was really good for me because he was always on me constantly on me even as a young lad What about your work ethic or your game?

23:13Just everything, yeah, and I think he was just... more to try not to, which I never would have anyway, try not to let me think I was better than what I was and stuff like that. So I was hard work. In your early days? Yeah, like he'd come in and... in the indoor gym, I was... setting big... me and Thomas Craverson, we'd set big rockets off one end of the gym to the other, had each other and Moisey walked in. You mean fireworks? Yeah. Moisey's walked in. You could see him, like, what is going on. I was 16.

23:50Whatever, so... Well, like, just... You'd light them and you'd hold them. And then... Going all over the gyms, obviously a little bit big in this pitch, probably, and going all over the place. He had a right, to be fair, to give you a clip. Yeah, no, he did.

24:07But, yeah, no, and then obviously Stubbsy and Duncan and I was really close to them too. It was weird, really, because obviously Duncan grew up loving Duncan and I ended up buying a house, my first house I bought. It was on the same road as Duncan and Stubbs, where they lived. So, like Champions League games, I was three watching, I was 16, 17. But you were fearless as a young man. Let's just remember that is the word that describes you. You wouldn't think twice. I'd be nervous, mate, about going round to a senior player's house. You wouldn't bother about that at all, would you? Oh, no. You'd probably take your shoes off and put your feet up.

24:39No, that didn't bother me. It was... Obviously, I knew I was with these two icons of mine, really, when I was growing up, and it was a bit surreal. I sat there with them. Were they invited around and just watched Champions League games? It'd be all the time, yeah. Go around and play cards, and it's weird. Yeah, it's unbelievable, that. When you look back, and I think, like, Duncan and Stubbs at the time were probably 33, 34, maybe. when I was 16, 17 so it was mad but they were great Duncan was amazing and when me my nan passed away when I went back to Everton Duncan's come obviously he knows all my family Evertonians and he walks in to the funeral and everyone was so happy obviously to see him and in Peter's respects Well it's great that I mean obviously he's a mentor to you but was he was he hard with if he needed to be would he be someone that would give you a telling off or would even be more coaching, you're mentoring you?

25:40Duncan. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe we'd argue, we'd full on arguments with each other as well. Again, when I was on the pitch, I wanted to win that much. You'd end up boiling over as well at times. I forget how much, I say arguing. Arguing sounds like you were falling out of people. You'd never fill out with anybody, to be fair. But you were constantly challenging people. I always remember like with Rio, you'd be like, if the defenders weren't pushing up the pitch or if you'd be on at each other all the time, you and Rio, wouldn't you? Or you and Vida or you and Patrice. Yeah, there's times it goes too far as well.

26:17I think when you look back and obviously you'll know some of the stuff I've said to coaches on the turning pitch. It's just like looking back and obviously being on that side now, you think, you hope a player doesn't. Remember the worst one? Remember one where you think, oh, I was out of line there? there was there was a few I don't remember that many no there was a few bad ones there was one with René which was bad and I felt terrible after because I've gone was it a bad decision he gave a refereeing decision that was the one with you I remember like if there's a Friday game I've gone for them big time and the manager pulled me into his office after the session and there's a few people watching and training like four or five sponsors it was René's wife and kids I had no idea and I felt I felt so bad he was a great coach wasn't he yeah I felt so bad but do you know something I said I actually thought this on the way here today I thought your mentality the only time I've ever seen your mentality I only played with Brian Robson for two years but he was like that in training Roy Keane was like that and you were like that that I mean I'd win if I got a decision against me but for you Roy Keane Brian Robson it was like you took it like decisions in the Friday game which were competitive weren't they they were really competitive you would be like you'd be fuming it was horrible you wanted to win them games and some of the tackles yeah horrific which went in you used to stop the game yeah you'd walk us in go in yeah Scolgey put me out for eight weeks I think the day before the game what just it was the day the Gafford others press conference when I said they wanted to leave oh Scolgey did you that day so I'm sure the gaffers had the way with him before training I don't think he would he'd done you that day and put you out for 8 weeks yeah so that's and then obviously when the manager obviously knew how he wasn't fit to play and then he went and done the press conference it's something I can't I don't know if you can describe but it's something I can't describe the intensity of every day and being in not just in the team that you were in but before that as well every day in training was a fight and was a battle to survive, to play.

28:34I think that's where it's changed now. Obviously, from a sports science point of view as well, there's a lot more to look at and to analyse and stuff like that. But sometimes actually being there and competing, whether you're going a bit too far from a physical point of view, sometimes that gets overlooked now. And what that brings to you as a player, as a teammate, is more than a number which you get given and say, you've had this much you need to go in and stuff like that so the amount of times you have your sports scientist telling you the players can't stay out and do finishing because they've done this much this week and that I heard you say that I thought it was really interesting you said that on the television a couple of weeks ago about how you practice your finishing you used to stay out I used to stay out for I used to stay out with Eric Steele and grab a goalkeeper and used to do it from right 8 to 12 yards practice finishing and with Eric and we'd do like five balls rest another five balls so it was constant so under a bit of pressure and you get tired so learn how to finish when you're fatigued she used to do that almost every and then I'd stay out with the keepers with Steeley as well and mess around the goal you always used to go on the goal didn't you put the gloves on I remember one time I was I was trying to show Edwin how to kick the ball out of his hands he was just looking at me thinking So, Steely's crossing it, I'm coming out, got a goalie, gloves on, catching it, and showing Edwin how to kick it.

30:05You must be looking at me and think, what are you doing? The last 20 minutes was so strange. I think we showed ourselves as very naive. Did you worry about finishing football? You know, what am I going to do the next 30, 35 years of my life?

30:27Hi, everyone. I hope you're enjoying this episode. This is just a quick thank you to Skybet, our partners, for making this show happen. It's something I've wanted to do for a long, long time. Please subscribe. There's loads more episodes coming up and I hope you're enjoying it. How beautiful is it in here, by the way? I want to go to England and I want to go to the Iceland game because I don't think about my career that much at all, to be honest with you. I don't think about my coaching career that much at all. I sometimes pick up the lessons from it. But the Iceland game is the one thing that sometimes I think, mainly for Roy, and obviously the country as well, but for Roy thinking about that last game and how we were.

31:13After the game was so strange. I remember obviously Roy come in and basically said he's gone and then he said he's not doing any press and I remember coming up to you you might remember coming up to you and saying guys he has to do the press he's got to kill him and then eventually he'd done it but yeah that game was yeah that was a it's a low moment obviously have you ever been in a game I've never been part of a game like that as an active sort of member of a team Have you ever felt like that on a pitch? It was strange. The last 20 minutes was so strange because I was a bit deeper in my field.

31:56And I think we showed ourselves as a young team and we were very naive the last 20 minutes. How many times have we said, keep moving the ball side, cross in the box, you'll pick up second ball, you'll get your chance, you'll wear them down. And we were committing players forward too quickly taking shots from stupid angles distances and I'm really panicked and played into their hands they had the two banks of four or five or whatever at the time and I never felt we were going to score in that last 20 minutes and you could feel the game just going away from you The atmosphere was weird in the stadium even wasn't it?

32:35Yeah It was a strange just feeling in the stadium Yeah and the fact that obviously you're expected to beat Iceland and because I actually think in that tournament and I taught in the games before that. We played really well and some of the best football we played for years with England I felt and that game was weird. It came out of nowhere. Yeah, it was a one-off and that's the weird part. You're sat in that dressing room and you're thinking, I'm home tomorrow. Do you remember the throw-in? Yeah, a big threat. The hours, the centre-half, come up and... Yeah. Do you want to go there? No, it's fine.

33:13Obviously, I was meant to block them and I've lost them, yeah. The first part of the game we started well. What was your view of what happened in that sort of like next 10, 15 minutes when it sort of slipped away from us? It went quickly, didn't it? Yeah. I don't know, really. I scored the penalty early on and I thought we had control and I think they got a little bit of momentum. They did get a few throw-ins and set pieces and stuff like that and then caused a couple of problems and then they got the equalized and then go 2-1 up and all of a sudden you're chasing the game and I think they were probably the worst team to go beyond to in the tournament but like Greece won Greece won Euro 2004 they got in front and it was so difficult to break them down it's interesting I think you said it out there that your best tournament was your first one my best tournament was my first one you were in 96 and then it never got as good after that do you still do you feel like I was like I just feel ultimately disappointed that I could never deliver we could never deliver with England and win a trophy or just get to a final and do what the current team are doing do you feel frustrated or do you think that we weren't good enough yeah because when you look at the players we had in that squad it was incredible some of the best players to play the game and to not go further than what we did is disappointing so I think if you go back now or if you put that team in today's game I think we go a lot further I think we were quite basic in how we settled I felt just think about the current team I want to talk to you about a few players that are currently playing for England and how good you think they are or what you think they need to do to get to the point whereby they can be regarded as the best place I'll start with Jude Bellingham where are you at with Jude Bellingham and how good a player I played against Jude when he was 16 I was at Derby he was at Burnham he actually man marked me in the game yeah I was playing deep in my field I was controlling games and he couldn't my mark so I kept dragging him out wide and he didn't like it and what I loved about him he'd go for attack and he'd leave it on me a bit like I would I've done I remember after the game saying he's going to go far and obviously I'd never expected what he's done now and I think what you see with Jude you see a player who wants it and he's got a mentality and he wants to play every minute of every game and I think a great example to any young player or older player is if you watch the Man City romantic game at the Etihad where City had full control of the game and you watched how hard he worked for the 120 minutes it was incredible the work he put into that game was incredible and then I always believe if you put that work in you get rewards and I think his mentality for me he's a future England captain for sure Who's England's most important current player?

36:11Who's the one player that they couldn't lose?

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36:51For me, you look at Harry Kane, it's probably Kane or Pickford. Pickford. I think Jordan's really important to England and probably because Garrett hasn't rotated them in friendly games as much as well. So we've yet to see what the other keepers be hard Jordan can do. Do you rate Jordan? I think I got him wrong because I think when I first saw him for England I was worried about him for Everton but the last three, four years to be honest with you. Yeah, I played with him for Everton didn't I? And then obviously I was in the England squad when he first got in the squad and I think because the way he is people will judge him because he's a bit lively and some of the stuff he does in the world a bit like Joe Hart was similar.

37:33Ramsdale is similar as well. He's a bit fidgety if you like. it doesn't fill you with that confidence but I think because you're used to seeing him now but you know he performs with that I think it'd be a big concern if he was to get injured Harry Kane just talk to us about Harry Kane and what you thought he played with him I think he's incredible I think the goals he scored assists now he's added over the last few years as well for me I'd probably say he's England's greatest ever player England's greatest ever play that's some statement from you I believe that and again when you're talking about Jude before with his work rate with Harry there's never an issue you see that he's ultra professional and never misses a game obviously he's had a couple of injuries and that's a common theme you'll see with all of these players with Harry Kane folding obviously sometimes Pep leaves them out but I assume I put money on it Never miss a train session, never miss a game.

38:37I want to talk about the left wing. Obviously, right wing's Pakai Osaka, centre-forward's Harry Kane. But the left wing, you've got Anthony Gordon, Jack Grealish, Phil Foden. Maybe Matheson could play out there. Where do you start with that? You've got four or five fantastic players. Which one do you go with and why? I don't know. I think it depends on the game as well. Because I want to see Foden more central. I think it's the best position. You want to see Foden off the front, basically? but then you've got Bellingham there as well that's the headache Southgate's going to have and I suppose he could go with the two of them as two number 10s in front of Declan Rice and then the three in midfield but then relying on your full backs to be the ones to give you the whip oh you mean the two number 10s that'd be behind Harry Kane yeah but then Foden has to play I agree with that I think he has to play it's about Anthony God did you see bits of the interview yeah so he speaks well doesn't he yeah who plays so Foden definitely plays so it would be him on the left if he was playing more solid I think that's again it's a strength and I think the last two tournaments even just giving players a little rest even if it's 15 minutes can make a big difference because we've got the strength and the quality in the squad I think in previous tournaments we've tended to go with that I think the last tournament Harry was chasing the goal goal record and I think if that weren't there he might might be a little bit easier to bring him off when the game's done or whatever and keep them a little bit fresher but I would like to see us manage that a little bit better but we've got some players for me Foden has to play Saka as well yeah some players in there I think Saka has to play on the right I think Saka will definitely play on the right I would think Bellingham will definitely play I agree with you Foden has to play I said in the last World Cup that if Phil Foden can't start for England we've got a real problem he's that he's that good yeah he has to play and you look at him and Jude and obviously Jude's getting, I don't know the fillers, but Jude's getting so many positive headlines and it's almost like Foden's going under the radar a little bit from it where I think Foden's scored more goals and more assists to McBelman throughout the season, which I think Foden has to play, has to.

40:51Where are you at with Jack Grealish? When I watch Jack Grealish, I think of someone who's instinctive, beats men at will, but then when I watch him for City now, he's become quite predictable out on that left. Do you agree with that? do you think he's had his yeah I think we can't have a go at Pep can we but this idea of his sort of like creativity has been stifled a little bit but I think what he does do he draws players to him doesn't he and creates a bit of space for other players and he holds on to the ball and players have a little bite at him and then all of a sudden these little pockets open up so teams obviously against City are sitting back so there's not a lot of space there for them going to the most important position on the pitch right back you've got obviously Kyle Walker who you would think is probably definitely going to play there what would you do with Trent Alexander-Arnold this like sensation of a talent never said anything like it in terms of play would you move him into midfield alongside you wouldn't because he's been told we interviewed him a few weeks ago for the overlap and he's been told by Gareth that I think he's that's where his position will be for England if he's going to play now and that he would go in there alongside Declan Rice and obviously maybe Bellingham if Foden played wide.

42:00I've watched Trent play there a few times in midfield and I think you lose a lot of his quality from football. I think his delivery is incredible. And of course, he picks passes from midfield, et cetera, but I think he's got a fighter out, trying a fighter out. I know Kyle's probably the best right back in the world at the minute, but I think midfield is such an important position. Who else would you play there? I mean, obviously, let's pretend that he doesn't play Foden and Bellingham in there because he wants a bit more solid. I played Mainu before Trent in midfield. You would? Yeah. 100%. I'd play...

42:34Who else have we got? We're struggling in there. Yeah, there's not many, is there? And I actually think Declan Rice's best position is when he plays probably ahead. So you definitely say to Trent, stay at right, back and fight. I think, yeah. It's not that he's not good in it. I think, you know, you see it against Devon through the weekend. You see it in Gabe's passes. He's hitting this incredible. And it's probably only Bex who's been similar to that. when Becks went central but I think to play in the field that discipline you need from a defensive point of view especially when you come up against the bigger teams I think you get found a bit by bit You're going over for the summer aren't you?

43:17How far do you think England can go? Oh they can win it Do you think they can win it? Have they got the defensive strength to win it? I think they can win it I think what we've got now is we've got I think other countries are starting to feel England a little bit where I think before it was yes they're a good team but there was never that fear I think with England nowadays a fear as we spoke about the players England have got a little bit short midfield still I'm assuming it would be Maguire and Stones who play centre half both experienced in tournaments now as well so I think it would be tough but they can certainly win it you need a bit of luck as well of course but there's no reason why they can't That's a pretty good place to finish.

44:00England winning the tournament. I'll see you in Berlin.