Rooney Picks His England Team | Fan Debate Euros Special

0:00The market's uncertain. Revenue's tied and hiring on hold. That's why results-driven companies are using Upwork to keep work moving. Go to Upwork.com today and start hiring proven freelance talent fast. No bulky overhead. No rigid long-term contracts. Just the right expert right when you need them. Work smarter and faster with Upwork. Go to Upwork.com now and find your freelance expert. That's U-P-W-O-R-K.com. Post a job for free and get started today. I think after the game, make sure no one's injured and then tell them, because naming it early, you're always going to go. If I got told they weren't going two days before, I would have went home as well.

0:41You're keeping very quiet still. You've got to give your neighbours a bottle of milk when your fridge is full. I've gone to the journalists, I've gone, this is mad, how come you're all talking to each other? I thought you meant to have your own stories. They said, no, no, don't look like that, Bill, we've had enough. We decide the manager's got to go. You and your Tom Heaton well done. I think this is absolutely masterpiece. If there is such a thing as an afterlife, I'm going to come back as a fourth goalkeeper. What a job that is. I just think Bellingham's going to boss it. I think it's the right stage for him at the right time.

1:11If we can't get Phil forward in a game for England, then there's something wrong. I think Trent really wants to be in the field. Someone needs to have a hard conversation with Trent. Defensively, he's all over the field. He can't defend. I wouldn't have him anywhere near the middle of the pitch.

1:31Thank you.

2:02Well done, lads.

2:06When do you go over? Friday. Friday. Ready for Saturday. Sunday. Sunday, yeah. Driving. Driving and all. How long will that take? Well, staying in Bruges Friday night, so hour and a half from Cali. Five hours to Cali. And then on the next day. Wow. And you stay there for the whole month, you hope? Yeah. Yep. Yep. As long as nothing goes wrong, we're there for it that way. That's it. Right, so welcome to a Euros special fan debate. And obviously I'm joined by William Rooney and a group of England fans and Scottish fans. Look at you, I can see you over there. And Rory's joined us as well. Can you believe it's actually 20 years ago, 2004?

2:49It feels like it. It's incredible, isn't it, when you think back to you. No, it goes quick, doesn't it? But also it feels a million miles away. So, yeah, that was probably the only tournament I played well in. I mean, it was actually my next question. Not that you didn't play well in any other tournament, but was that actually as close as it got for you? I mean, obviously I was in Euro 96, which was close getting to the semi-final, but I genuinely feel that if you'd have stayed fit, that we would have gone on to win that tournament. Yeah, I believe that. I've said that many times. If I stayed fit, I felt we would have won it.

3:28I felt unstoppable at that time. Yeah, as I said, beyond 2004, 2006, I should never have went. A bit like Harry Maguire now, where he's injured and he's not match fit. But it was my first World Cup, so I always wanted to go and I would have done everything to go. But looking back, I should never have went, really, because I was never fully fit. Should we pay any attention to the build-up games? You were obviously on the game against Iceland. Yes and no. Obviously, when you're playing them, you don't want to get injured, but you want to get your match out. You just want to get your fitness. I think for Phil Fone, it was a big game playing in number 10.

4:14For me, the back line, which I'm still unsure on, even being honest, and that's my only worry for England, I think. The attack on players are unbelievable, probably the best we've had, really, as a country. But the back line is a big worry for me. So, let's start with the squad, and there's been a couple of the bigger missions now, probably we heard of Madison. We'll go to Madison first over a week ago. Do you believe Madison should have gone? No. No, you agree with Gareth's decision? Yeah. To be honest, I think I probably agree with all the decisions. I think if Harry Maguire's fitted, I think he goes, he plays.

4:56Grealish, I would have took him, if I'm being honest. I think Bowen on the right, they've got Saka, they've got Cole Palmer. Bowen, Bowen, sorry, Foden can play out there. I would have took Grealish instead of Bowen, just to give a bit more balance. I think he brings something a bit different as well. and Brantwijk was one for me. I think just for the balance of the back line, big lad, good on the ball, has a good season. I think for me, I would have took him. Flav, where are we? James Madison, do you agree with, well, Gareth Southgate? No, I do, I do. It's unfortunate for Madison, but if you look at the position that he would have been most effective in, Bellingham's playing there, Eze can play in the middle, Foden can play in the middle, as can Kyle Palmer.

5:46And while he's an excellent player, there's too much in his space. There's too much for him to do. Yeah, I think he'd be disappointed because, especially, obviously, Eze coming into the squad, Anthony Gordon coming to the squad, Cole Palmer has obviously had an unbelievable season. I think he can play out wide as well, Madderton, but his best position is number 10. And then, just as you said, the lads in there, you fought. I think having a 26-man squad, Garrett's got the luxury of maybe taking players who he probably knows if everyone stays fit, are not going to get on the pitch. So could he have took Maddison?

6:24He probably could have. I can't see a world where Maddison would have got enough time to make any tangible difference throughout the tournament. I agree. The only thing I don't agree with is the... Who did he play the first friendly game? Bosnia, was it? Bosnia. In that game, I didn't get why Grealish come onto the pitch, Maddison come onto the pitch if he knew they weren't going to be involved. I didn't understand that. Was there a fallout? Anyone? Was there a fallout? He just left early and... Oh, no, no. You're talking about a fallout. Sorry, there's a fallout. He left earlier than the rest of the actual players who were...

6:57There was a commotion around the media and they made it into something that there wasn't because, as ever, but they... No, but if one... No, Flav, if one player leaves four days, five days before the rest of the players leave, putting two and two together, ordinarily. That was a surprise to me when he'd come out with the players who weren't travelling, who weren't in the squad. I was very surprised at that. I thought he should have known who he was going to select not to go and told them after the game because it was a big worry. Obviously, when John Stone goes down, you're concerned. You just think after the game, make sure no one's injured and then tell them because naming it early you're always going to go if I got told I wouldn't go two days before I would have went home as well yeah I mean I to be honest with you I've probably seen I've seen it eight times five as a player three times as a coach I've never seen a brilliant way of doing it that you actually either keep the players happy or keep the coaching staff happy it's always a horrible you've seen it it's it's brutality actually in terms of the spirit The closest thing I could think, my first year as manager at Derby, I had to tell 10 under-21 players that did get released in.

8:17They'd been at the club since they were eight. That was very tough. I don't want to do it again. I'll have to. That's the closest thing I could think. I used to go in with the young players to see Sir Alex when I was captain for the last five years. and when he was releasing them, it wasn't great. And I probably witnessed the worst ever squad cull, if you like, which was the Glenn Hoddle one back in 98, which was... I mean, Glenn just made the simple error of actually putting five-minute meetings in and 25 players every five minutes. And if one player doesn't turn up on time and if one player meeting runs over to seven or eight minutes, you had then obviously this queue building up in the corridor.

9:01And it was awful. I mean, my brother was one that was left out, Nicky Buck was left out. They weren't the main, if you like, people, but at the time, Gazza was the big one. What was he doing with the players who were left in? Just telling them to do it. So, I mean, literally, you got a slot on the board. There was, I think there were seven players, to be fair, so it would have been 30 of us.

9:20And he gave every single player and he mixed in the players who were being selected and the players that weren't. So there was no order to the actual squad. So I was saying number six and I went in not knowing whether I was in or not, even though I was pretty confident I played quite a few of the games and he said you know you're in the squad and my brother was in sort of like three or four after me but he didn't tell me when I went in that my brother wasn't in why would he you have to separate emotion but then my brother came out my brother was absolutely gutted he was devastated because if you remember Phil thought he was definitely going to go two reasons one John Gorman had told him he was going to go and Glenn changed his mind because I went to see John the day after I saw John in the corridors.

10:03John was a great bloke and I just said, look John, what's happened? I said, you told me he was going to go. He said, Gary, I know. He said he changed his mind. If you remember what happened, Graham Lassau was our number one left wing back and actually our second left wing back was that tournament, either Paul Merson or Rio Ferdinand. That was the backup left wing back. Phil was certain that he was the only person that could cover both right and left wing back, which Glenn played. So he was pretty certain he was going to be. He was devastated, Phil. you won't believe it Phil's room was next to Gaza's so we back in Phil's room Phil's actually in tears and he's really upset he's inconsolable and all of a sudden we just did this massive racket and that's when obviously Gaza had been left out so it was it was a brutal one that and I've lost my thread now but I'm going to go back to the media I think you say fly what was your accusation that the media sort of made trouble.

10:54I remember it was something like that. Rory, on the Madison one, why did he leave early then? Are you across any of that? I've not heard anything to suggest there was a proper fallout. I would have thought that if you know you're not going, is it not good management to say, look, if you don't want to stick around, go. What's the purpose of Madison being there? I think you'd better not be in there. If you're telling them before the game, then the other players are obviously focusing on the game and there's no reason for them to be involved in the game. so if he tells them early, he has to tell them to...

11:25He either has to tell them to go home or...? You'd give them the option. I'd have stayed there, was I? I wouldn't. No way. Why would you stay? The reason I'd have stayed there would have been probably... Just hoping that someone gets injured. That's the only reason you're staying. There's two reasons. One, there is an element of duty. I think that ultimately you're in it together, and I always had this feeling in football that if you're left out and you and I'm not going to go to Madison by the way because he's just said he would leave and different players deal with him in different ways the reason I would have stayed would have been I always used to get really pissed off as a player if someone went mad that they were left out because what you're actually saying is that the guy that's been picked in front of you isn't good enough you think you're better than him which is fine don't get me wrong confidence is good but at least respect the fact that that guy that's gone into the team doesn't need to hear about your problems.

12:22He needs your support. So I can understand. And for me, that's the first thing. You have a duty to be professional. Not every player is you. I get that. Not every player can give that support. Yeah, I get that. You've got big players. You've got Grealish there. Harry Maguire, who I know was upset, even though he was injured. But you've got big players and big personalities there. So for them to hide their emotions and support teammates, you'd hope they could do that. But it's very difficult. I actually really love Madison, to be fair. I love him as a character. I wouldn't want him to change one bit.

12:53The reason I would have stayed secondly would have been that, let's say that Bellingham or... Not Bellingham didn't play, but let's say Foden got injured somehow in that game. I'd have wanted to make sure, because I think Gareth would look... Knowing Gareth as you would and knowing how he would look at us, you're a coach. You'd think, I'm going to pick the guy that stayed. I'm not going to pick the guy that's gone home. That's where I think Gareth should have sent them all on. Yeah, maybe. He kept, he had to keep, Qantas. Yeah. He kept him there and I watched him after the game. I was on the side of the pitch doing the TV.

13:22And I watched every player walk on the pitch after the game. Yeah. And walk around. As soon as the final whistle, Qantas goes in. So straight away you've got a split and he's seen that no one's injured. Yeah. He's probably in, shouting and then leaving. And I fell for him because he was the only one there. So I think Gareth should just said to them all, listen, go home, you're going to miss the game. If there's an injury, be ready. And give them that 24, 48 hours. if anyone gets injured be ready in case they call you after that go on your holidays one of the saddest ones that I've ever seen actually was with you when you came back the phone that was hard yeah so basically what Jermaine had been asked to do is basically go right up to the edge of the tournament because there was a obviously there was a potential that you wouldn't be fit 2006 Germany and that you wouldn't recover so he walks in he's a big man's back I walk in and Jermaine walks out So Jermaine basically...

14:14I felt so bad. Jermaine had been with us for two or three weeks, and Jermaine was a popular player, great professional, and we all had to say bye to him. And it was him on his own, so it wasn't like a case... That was, again, it's tough.

14:31Going back to players that have been left out, Big Steve, you're keeping very fucking quiet, Steve. And you don't think I'm not going to mention the fact that the greatest team of all time were beat... I mean, look, you're still seething, aren't you? You're going red. I thought you were going to mention the charges again. That's why I'm going red. I'll come on to them. Have you recovered, Steve, by the way, before we go on to Jack Grealish? Yeah, happy. Great season. Happy with what? Losing the F-E-G-O-T final? Oh, no, listen, I said it before, you know. What are you happy about? Sometimes, listen, you've got to give your neighbours a bottle of milk when your fridge is full.

15:07That was a keg of Dom Perry, yeah, it wasn't. No, listen, the better team won on the day. I don't think anyone expected it, but yeah, you deserved it. And like you say, you're not celebrating much these days, so they're helping you out. I got mixed up between Dom Perignon and Lauren Perrier there, so it shows I don't know my champagne. So, Jack Grealish. Yeah. I think he's going to be upset. I think it's down the middle, 50-50. A lot of people will say he's not at the best of seasons, he's been injured, you know, he's not been getting picked sometimes off Pep. Jeremy Doku's arrived, totally different winger, very explosive and the fans are like, they want to see that.

15:44But as you've seen the other night, like what Wayne said, he offers something different. He'd come on against Bosnia. It looked like he changed the game a little bit. I think he can control the game deep. I don't think he loses the ball. I think he offers something a little bit different. So it was a bit of a surprise to me to not take him. By all accounts, I don't think he was expecting not to go. I think he was expecting to go. but Gareth seems to be picking players on form and sometimes he's been criticised in the past for not doing that people saying he's got his favourites and that you should pick this player and he's not done that and then now he has done that he's picked Eze and people like that and people are criticising him again so I mean he's going to live and die by his decisions I think as a Manchester City fan I'm disappointed that he's not gone but I will accept that he hasn't had the greatest of seasons but what Wayne said I do think Jack Grealish offers something different to a lot of them lads there.

16:38I think we are heavy on the right-hand side. I think the left-hand side, we are a little bit weaker. I wouldn't like to see Foden playing out wide either. I feel like he needs to play in the 10 after the season he's had. So, yeah, as a City fan, I'm disappointed. But talking to the lads backstage and that, I think it's like 50-50. I think what you can, there's no substitute for players who are winning trophies. I think it's so important. and there's not many in the England squad who've done that. The City players, obviously, who have been doing that regularly over the last few years. So I just think there's a real lack of experience in the squad.

17:14That's my worry. And on the back line, there's not many caps between the players. So when you get to them later stages... I've done it when I first signed for Manchester United. You get to finals and you get to the end of tournaments, semi-finals, et cetera. we're looking at these lads who've been there they've won trophies and they keep you calm and they get you through it so that's me worry for England I think they'll breeze through the group stages but when they come up against good teams who are going to be a real threat to them I think just that lack of experience might harm us I just want to come on to another reason why I think I'm just thinking about obviously Gareth he's the most experienced I think England person I think we'll ever see in terms of just understanding tournaments, understanding coaching, understanding the FA.

18:06I want to come to you, Rory, in terms of a thought I've got around Grealish and Maddison. They are media darlings. They are fan darlings. And I just think Gareth doesn't do distraction. And I think there'll be an element of it in the game one. If we're a bit methodical, if we're a bit rigid, they're obviously going to want, sort of, if you like, Bellingham and Foden in there. But there's going to be this clamber. You know, there always is for Jack. There always is for Maddison. There's just this feeling that they are the Gascoigne, this idea. Do you think that's one of the factors that could be in Gareth's mind?

18:37I think he's really conscious of that. He doesn't like that extra. There's enough pressure for Southgate as it is. He doesn't need this endless pressure to play whichever player the media, as a media spokesman, whichever player the media has decided should be in the team. I think Southgate probably resents that and probably rightly resents it. Maybe the fact that Maddison, second half of the season, by his own admission, not being to his level and the fact that Grealish has been in and out a little bit. I would have taken Grealish, I think, what Wayne says about not so much, it's not experience in terms of caps for England.

19:08You want players who've played in the last stages of the Champions League. That's what you need. That's the highest level of football. You need players who are, as many players as you can get, who've got experience under that pressure. Because when you get to the quarterfinals and the semis, it's that level of pressure you have to be able to cope. And Grealish, I think, you maybe could have taken for that. The other thing, I don't know how much this applies in football, but in cricket they talk a lot about good tourists. And if you're not in the team, you have to be a good tourist. I wasn't going to go down that route because I don't think we've heard from either Tottenham or from City that Grealish and Maddison are unpopular squad members or people.

19:45I was going to go there and ask you, is there an element of them being a little bit itchy on the bench and a little bit sort of like in training the day after a game they don't play and stuff like that? Do you think there is an element of that? You never hear enough. You've certainly not heard enough about either of them to say they're a bad influence in the camp. I don't think that's the case. I wonder whether certain players are more comfortable in that role. The media then comes into it. I think that's ridiculous if they're left out of the squad for that reason. Because you look around every country, every team, the players, the best players, there's always demands from the media.

20:21That's part of the game, I think. So to leave players out, if that's the case for that reason, I think that's ridiculous. But Sir Alex would do that. He would make decisions like that. If you look at tournaments, who's going to win it for Brazil? Not the Euros, but a tournament. Probably Vinicius Junior. And there's a lot of talk around Vinicius. Who's going to win it for France, Mbappe? So you don't leave players out. They're probably the players who have got the character and they've got that strength to be able to deal with it. So if they're not there, so we've seen it with Raheem in 2016, how much he struggled.

20:55If they're not there, so now all of a sudden they go on to a different player who actually can't cope with it. It becomes even worse. So I think having good characters who, yeah, there might be pressure on them, but you've got that strength to deal with it. I think they're important to have. I'll ask a question. You mentioned about young players going deep into the competition. Is it so important that you have older players that have been for it? Oh, 100%. Is there any element of some of these young players that haven't experienced defeat and therefore they don't have any fear? Like in 2004, you came into it and it looked like you had no fear about playing at all.

21:28Yeah, but if you think in 2004, I was probably the only one. There's so many players now where I could go to any other player in the squad and get advice off them or just guidance on certain things. where now there's you've got Gaye you've got Conce you've got Maynou Wharton the amount of players who barely played Cole Palmer Eze so many players and what will happen naturally is they'll probably stick together and then when it starts getting tough they'll be talking saying what do we do because they're in a group where I was on my own I wasn't in a group so I could go to anyone and say you know what I'm a bit worried here so I think for me that's the issue that there's so many players not that they're not good enough or not that they don't deserve to be there I think there's so many players that have got lack of caps lack of tournament football you need that Harry Maguire Grealish for me to just to bring that experience into the squad The other player that you mentioned was Brantway I mean that is the area that to be fair I think over the last four, five, six years that we would say would be the Achilles heel for Gareth, and even more so now this tournament.

22:45I know we're saying it's either us or France, but you have to look at our defence and think, we've got real issues there. I was worried before he announced the squad, and after he announced the squad, I was like, I'm not sure. More worried. And then after watching the Iceland game, I was like... I know, but there'll be players like Harry Kane and the more experienced players who will see that game as just getting me through the game because I don't want to get injured where some of the other players are playing to try and start the game and so they're playing as well as they can. They're giving everything they can to try and start in the game and Iceland should have been 2-3 and up and they were all over the place.

23:27The back line was all over the place. There was no communication. I think that's a key thing. There was no communication coming from them and that's why England were getting pulled apart a little bit, especially on transition. so that's a concern for me, Dan. Let's go to Dan. Where are you, Dan? Did you ever think Crystal Palace would become the feeder club for England? It's not something that was in my crystal ball, shall we say. But at the same time, I do think that our recruitment over the last three or four years has done what it's supposed to have done. You know, we brought Eze in from QPR.

24:01He was a player everyone knew in the Championship had the ability to go and play at Premier League level. Adam Warton, you know, he's had a meteoric rise since coming in from Blackburn. That is no disservice at all to Blackburn. Obviously, he was a fantastic player for them. But I don't think even any Blackburn fan I spoke to expected him to play as well as he has in his three months. Gay, you know, he's been a rock at the back of our team for the last three or four years. I think he's there on merit. Obviously, if Harry Maguire was fit, he'd be starting next to John Stones. But I think there's a solid chance that Mark starts now next to John Stones because of the left side.

24:37And, you know, obviously you're going to get a lot of people say four Palace players in the Eurosquad. You know, it shows a lack of quality options. But at the same time, I think the last three or four months of our form under Oliver Glasner was, you know, incredible. And they're there on merit. I don't think there's anyone that can look at any of the four and say they don't deserve an opportunity. I don't think Eze and Wharton are necessarily going to get many minutes. I think Gay, as I say, will start and obviously Henderson's the third choice. but there's definitely a chance that Eze can come on and do something with 20 minutes to go.

25:09I think Walton, as much as it was only a cameo against Bosnia, he was so calm and so assured for someone who's still 20 in his first ever England game. So I think he can be relied upon. And yeah, it's just that it's a great thing for us as a club, really. I'm looking at sort of what the things are that Gareth's done differently. He's done a number of things differently in this last sort of seven years, eight years. And I think there has been, it goes against what you said before about picking players from clubs that have been successful and been Champions League clubs. Going back to say, I remember in Sven's time, he almost wouldn't pick a player unless they were in the Champions League.

25:46So it was always basically Liverpool, Man United, Chelsea, Arsenal, where predominantly the whole squad felt like it was from those clubs. And there was an elitist approach. Actually, I think the one thing that Gareth's done differently than probably all the other managers that I've seen in the last 20 years is, and it maybe comes down to his own career of playing, obviously, where he played. He didn't play at, if you like, a top four club. He has removed that sort of feeling that it doesn't matter where you play, who you play for, you know, I will pick you for England and I actually think that's been one of the big positives that he's changed.

26:17He brought players into the squad before they're ready as well and I think he's trying to get them to a place where they are ready and I know I was there when Gareth first started. I was still playing and we had players coming up from the under-21s to train with us and so we tried to get them some more experience of being around the England squad. So I think what he's done is great. And I actually pulled out of the England squad when I was with Gareth because I turned up every training session, played every game. But then my last year at United with Mourinho, I weren't playing. So I went in to see Gareth, I was captain of England at the time and said, I don't deserve to play.

26:58I'm not playing for Manchester United. And I always had the feeling that if I'm not playing, you have to earn the right to play for England. And so I said, I don't think I should be selected. So it actually helped him because I think at the time he was worried about it. Yeah, OK, Wayne. We're not hoping that he goes, no Wayne, come here, come on. So what he'd done, we had a good conversation. So then he picked the squad and went in, whatever. but then he went, yeah, that's the belief. He come out and said, if you're not playing for your club, you're not playing for your country. And then he picked Nadei from Chelsea, who hadn't even played for Chelsea.

27:36I don't even knew that. I don't want to stay in the squad.

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28:29No bulky overhead. No rigid long-term contracts. Just the right expert right when you need them. Work smarter and faster with Upwork. Go to Upwork.com now and find your freelance expert. That's U-P-W-O-R-K.com. Post a job for free and get started today.

28:49I want to just touch on Rory with yourself. That is a big thing Gareth has changed. He's made it irrelevant who you play for. But one of the big things he's changed also is this idea of the relationship between the media and the England team. Do you think that's because of a change in the media and how the media now reports on football? Probably post Raheem coming out with his statement, maybe post some other things that have happened. Or do you think it's actually what Gareth has done internally and how he approaches the media? I think there's been a shift, I think Raheem helped there be a shift in the media understanding that certain things play in certain ways and that they had to be much more sensitive than had been the case in the past.

29:33It's not perfect as we saw with Saka this week. Things still happen that are not ideal, that are not the right way to be. Sorry, what happened with Saka? Sorry, I haven't seen her. Saka became kind of the face of the defeat to Iceland despite the fact that... Yeah, so England lost obviously the game against Iceland and... Didn't he play? Exactly, that's the point. I've been hungry with meat kids in a tournament. Yeah, so that's the point, basically. But, you know, obviously it's been rightly condemned, the fact that, you know, his face was used as the sort of, yeah, the face of that defeat versus Iceland when I say he was actually irrelevant to the defeat.

30:06He had 20-odd minutes. But how do we correct that? I think, in all honesty, and obviously I don't work for British Paper, so I can't pretend that I knew the decision. I think sometimes there is coincidence. Saka picked up a paper plane. Don't often see players pick up a paper plane that's thrown onto the pitch. That's a photo. It's a good photo. Player with a paper plane. He also was lying on the floor at the end of the game. Everyone likes Bakaio Saka. He's really popular. There's no kind of agenda against Bakaio Saka. I think the way it looks is probably worse than the way it's intended. And the media have to be much more conscious at all times of the way things look.

30:41It doesn't matter how it's intended. If it looks bad, it is bad. Was it just a picture or was there an article saying? It was the headlining picture. Yeah, it was the headlining picture. It was just the picture. Yeah. I mean... But then if you've got a player with a paper plane, whether that player's white or black doesn't matter, and you can do the headline nosedive. And that's the issue. It's a good picture. But the thing is, it was really lazy journalism. And the thing is, it's interesting. I mean, you talk about the media. I mean, going to England across the years, I mean, in your day, it's interesting to see the media, I mean, they had a stranglehold over England.

31:14And I think that the way that the media was back in your day as well, they had a negative effect on the team. Because the fact is that the headlines they used to put out, the stories, just everything was almost like a whirlwind. You know what I'm saying? And it's almost like you went into a tournament. And if you didn't win, right, you were going to lose. So the media in those days, I think, was really, really negative towards the team. Whereas I think what Gareth's done is that he understood all of that. He's come in. He's basically kind of normalized the play. Because also in those days as well, there was a massive disconnect between us fans.

31:48I mean, you'd admit that as well. You know, he's come in, he's normalised all that. He's got the players that come in, we want you to be normal. And he's managed to go out there and almost put this flag out, understanding the media, and got the media to not do that. So for years, actually, I thought, I'm going into a tournament, and I'm not feeling this massive kind of like, you know, whirlwind that we used to get back in the days. And I thought that was really good. But then I've just noticed recently that started to come back again. we've had a couple of good tournaments and all of a sudden all this silly, I mean, I don't know if it's got to do with the economic climate or anything like that, but all the silly headlines are coming out, these silly little things and something like this would have happened 20 years ago, no problem.

32:24And for it to happen again, I'm thinking maybe you might say it wasn't intended, but there's this laziness inside there where there's certain people in there thinking this will suit our agenda here and they put it out there. So I thought with myself and I know a lot of people said that wasn't right, especially what Saka went through in those last Euros here as well. I mean, he got annihilated. I think as well, because obviously social media now, so a lot of the players can put a lot of stuff out. Social media is working alongside the team and the whole country really. Because that can get out there and then.

32:59So maybe the newspapers are trying to find a way to create something different than what's coming out. to be controversial to try and get their headlines again. So I don't know. I think Billy's right that there has been a shift in the way that Inland are covered, which is a lot of that is to do with Southgate. I think Southgate has done really well to bring the media inside a little bit more in a way that is controlled, whereas when you were playing, it was very oppositional, it was very confrontational. Part of that is because players are different now. Players know that you can't, that you couldn't have a dentist chair now, not least because you've got loads of sports scientists telling you not to, and everyone's got a phone.

33:37So even Gaza would have worked out, probably better not do that. Literally everybody's got a phone. And that changes the way players behave. So there's not as much currency in that kind of gotcha thing of players running out drinking or whatever celebrating because players know they can't do it because everyone's got a phone. So that helped make it more... I'm really interested just from a point of view of probably being part of the England journey from 1996 through to 2016. and there's no doubt I feel when I look back and reflect now, which I can, you know, as I come out of it, that I see it in three sort of phases.

34:09The first phase was probably 96, probably through to sort of when I sort of retired from football around that time. There were some brutal annihilations of players bullying, you know, whether you go to David Beckham, whether you go to Wazza after 2006, my brother after 2000, 2000. You know, there was someone, even Gareth himself after 96 with the penalty. There were some annihilations of people and it did create a fear factor that there was going to be a scapegoat. Because the reality is, in a tournament, there was going to be a scapegoat. There was also, worse than that, actually, was behind the scenes when journalists used to enter the press conference and the players would go in there to do a press conference.

34:45And you'll remember this, Rory. There were some quite powerful, big forces, and I'd call them big personalities, as you would in a dressing room. There were some big personalities in the media pack that would sit at the front and they would eyeball you. you know you're a 21 22 23 year old England player and there was no doubt there was an element of sort of like I'm going to try and impose myself upon you here in a negative way and I'm going to try and influence you know what I'm talking about here and it was horrible it really was horrible and there was no doubt at that time I think the media were to blame there was probably then a shift I think probably 2012-13 where there was a lot more articulate journalism a lot more detailed journalism a lot more about tactics actually a great understanding rather than what would be headline grabbing and I think the media changed but then the problem was you still had people in the squad and in around the squad probably like me probably like you that was so scarred so that bridge couldn't sort of be rebuilt so there was a bit in the middle which I think was a transition period which we may have been as much at fault for as the media themselves I don't I think there's a new type of journalist coming through and then it needed Gareth to come through with a new group of players that to be fair weren't scarred by the past and he'd seen it all playing and coaching and thought, right, I need to change this.

35:57And that's what I think we're in this modern era now. And I do agree with you, we've got to be careful it doesn't creep back in. But I generally think the sports journalists that follow England now are very aware of their responsibility of what they say and what they do at the end of a tournament. The headline and the picture will always let down the sports journalists, to be honest with you. But the sports journalists, you don't have control over headlines. No, but you take responsibility. You have to take responsibility. It's your name on it. It's your responsibility. Yeah. I'll tell you, there's one mad story, actually.

36:26I went to Sweden. I think it was around about 98. And I was in the bar. I was in the Spy Bar. If you've been to Sweden, you know the Spy Bar. Okay, Spy Bar is a really quite famous place. And basically, I was a load of fans, but all the guys you're talking about there, they were all there, like every single one of them, right? All the journalists. So we got to know them, started to chat with them. I'm not going to mention their names, but you probably know who they are, the big personalities, as you call. And England lost that game to Sweden. I think it was 2-1, was it? I think that's when Ince was captain.

36:54So they lost that game. So everyone's inside there. So I've gone to the journalists. I've gone, this is mad. How come you're all talking to each other? I thought you meant to have your own stories. They said, no, no, don't work like that, Bill. No, don't work like that, mate. You know, we share the stories. That's what we do. So it's his story. Tomorrow he's got the headline. And I was like, oh, really? OK. So they're sort of telling me what all the rules were. Then one of this really big personality said to me, right, we've had enough. We've decided the manager's got to go. And I'm like, what do you mean?

37:15He goes, right, we've decided we're going to get rid of him. And I went, what do you mean you're going to get rid of him? I mean, you don't work for the FA, no, no, no. It was a pack. They were influential. They were powerful people. They were very powerful at that time. The media can't do that anymore. The papers can't bring that up. They could in the 90s, but they can't do it anymore. But they did it, and they did it. Within, I think, six months, he was gone. And they just put the knife in, and they did the same thing. And they basically influenced what happened within the team. Almost like team selection and everything.

37:41It was like mad. I think we started a few years before Gareth came in. What used to happen is a new player would get in the squad and he'd sit him up, might be a 21-year-old who hadn't done that much media. I think the players now are so much better trained at it. But he'd sit on the top table doing a press conference and he'd just get annihilated, didn't know what to say really. Then we'd change it to me and started sitting them. So with vows in the squad, I'd do it with a young player. I remember doing it with Ross Barkley. Do you remember the interview we were done with Rashford? This was first ever interview for FATV.

38:18So we were doing it alongside me. And if that interview got out, it was horrendous. But then... You or him. No, but just training them up to try and obviously then get confident enough to know how to hold a press conference. I always remember it was you actually who told me this. It's your press conference when you're doing a press conference. You get exactly what you want out. don't be influenced by the questions you get so I think much better now than it's contrary to what the media thought I think at the time I did a presentation to the players when that was under Roy about how this was something that basically you had to get good at forget the idea of you know and I was really disappointed at times when a couple players wouldn't go and speak to press because I said I used to say to them I called two of them in I won't name the names because I think it breaches what will be a confidentiality of a coach and player relationship.

39:07I said, the problem I have got with you two saying that you won't do the media is that you're asking other players to do your job for you. And you're asking other players to go and speak for you. And I said, that's not how a collective works. And we did start to do things like putting a young player with an older player and encouraging them to do it. And I used to say to them, this is your press conference. You're going in there. You're being asked questions, but what you, not in a politician's type way, but what is it you want to get out of? It starts to think... to be a politician. it was very much a politician.

39:38Start to think about what you want to say and what headlines and you'll get given, you'll be prepared, you'll get told the questions, really start to think about it because this can actually work for you in a really positive way and actually was trying and what we did at the end of games, it was deemed a negative at the end, it was deemed a negative because I think there was a picture sent through of the board that, so at the end of a game, right, you've got eight players going out in to do the mixed zone and I think it's six or eight have to do it out of the 22 players and usually lads that have played.

40:09I used to just put basically to help them and this wasn't a case of sort of saying, you know, lie to the media. I just put some guidance on there which was basically, if we've not defended well, just say we haven't defended well, we need to defend better, you know what I mean? Guide, almost giving them, I used to do like a board, put in a look lads, if you want to use those messages, they're to me what I would be saying if I was you as a player and actually wasn't thinking of me as a coach protecting Roy you're protecting, you know, I was thinking more about guidance of helping them go out there with a collective message, really.

40:39And I think, to be fair, when I look back now, it didn't really work. The reason it didn't work was probably because the results didn't accompany us, to be fair. Gareth's done well as well, because he's obviously succeeded in respect of his results have been good. But it is interesting how it's all changed the media. One question. I text Tom Heaton. You know Tom Heaton well, don't you? I think this is absolutely masterpiece. Is what? I love it. I love it. We had it in the States. We had training keepers in the States. And just the fact that you've got three keepers there, so when you want two small side games, you end up with the goalie coach playing in goal.

41:15So just to have four goalkeepers there makes a massive difference. I texted Tom Heaton yesterday and I said, if there is such a thing as an afterlife, I'm going to come back as a fourth goalkeeper. What a job that is. You get paid footballer wages. You just kick a ball nicely into the keeper's arms. I absolutely love Tom Heaton. And I do agree with Waz, I think it's a mass struggle. Because he is, you'll not meet a better person in football than Tommy. To have around the group, I agree with you, it's a brilliant move. Yeah, I think just having, even like giving, because what people don't see is, the work that Pickford does will be a lot less than what Ramsdale and Henderson are doing.

41:53Because they're getting battered every day, the day after the game when Pickford's recovering. The lads who haven't played are doing finishing, they're diving around everywhere. so I have Tom Hitton there just to take that load off them a little bit but also, as I said before, sometimes as a coach you're putting a game here, a game here and you make it competitive and fun. Having the fourth keeper allows you to do that where we do it when you have the goalie coach or a physio and goal and stuff like that. You'll know this, it's actually, to be fair, not just a goalkeeping problem so if you want to try and do an 11v11 in training and you've got a 23-man squad you've got 10 outfield players basically on one team, 10 outfield on another So if two players are injured or not quite right, it was basically, if I was a coach with Roy, I'd end up going in as a right-back.

42:39So as a 26-man squad, one of the best things that basically Gareth will have is the ability to play a true 11 v 11 with proper players. We could never get an 11 v 11 out on the pitch before a tournament or onto a build-up to a match because there's always one or two players that had a slight problem here or a slight problem there. So you never get a proper game. Could you not bring up 21s or anything to fill in the numbers for a couple of weeks? We did that with, believe it or not, we did that in pre... I think we did that in Brazil with John Stones and Ross... Was it Ross Barkley we did it with?

43:07I can't remember. No, it was the full-back for Liverpool, young lad. Flanagan. Flanagan. It was Flanagan and Stones we brought into it to be almost, you know, not having to put me in at basically right-back. So you're right, you can bring under-21 players up, but just having them there for a month, one big problem. What would that big problem be, taking an under-21 player that's good? Club manager. The club. you imagine you're a club manager that's got a talented under 21 player and they're going to be training all summer don't care about Tommy with respect no it's true you're probably better if I mean you're probably more chance getting like a 37 year old 36 year old that's probably needs to tick himself over in the summer but getting a talented Tom will bring he's been to tournaments as well Tom will bring that experience I think that's why I think it's a great move from Gareth because there is a young squad Tom will bring that experience bring a young keeper they're probably not going to talk and they're going to be sat there maybe feel a bit isolated at times but Tom will get around the players as well and help them from his experience as well so I think it's a great move Has anyone got any other points they want to make about the England squad?

44:18Go on, speak up those who haven't spoke yet, come on I just think Bellingham's going to boss it I think it's the right stage for him at the right time and I'm really looking forward to him playing really looking forward to him I hope you're right, and I hope he hasn't absolutely run a million miles and fallen off the edge of the sort of what would be proverbial cliff at the end of a season where he's won the Champions League. Because he did look at the end like he was, almost like he was out on his feet. I know he's young, but I just hope he hasn't got that emotional, not necessarily the physical with the young, but it's the emotional element of just doing what he's done.

44:50That's the only sort of guard I have. I think this tournament as well, the expectation on him, compared to the last tournament, he'll be, you know, He's just obviously won Champions League, won the league, Real Madrid. So he'll be expecting to come there and that can weigh heavy on you. But I think one of you has mentioned it before. For me, you have to build a team around Phil Foden. I just think he has to play as a number 10 and you play a little bit deeper. Is Foden the player that reminds you most of you in terms of, I know every player is different in a different era, but in terms of character and sort of the way in which he plays?

45:27No, I think he's a bit more... LAUGHTER Let's move on. No, but he's obviously... I think he's completely different to me in terms of... He's more mature than I was with the ball at that age. I was a bit more raw than... I was thinking more about the expectation on him since he was a young kid, basically. I think it's more on Jude now. I think for Fogh now, this season has really been a big step up for him. And for him to go there and play as a number 10, I think you're lacking a midfielder to go next to Declan Rice. And I think Duda's going to go there next season, at Madrid, with the plays they've brought in.

46:13And he's more than capable of doing that. I think that, for me, that's his best position. Nii, where are you at with this squad? What's the thing that worries you most? I worry that to make it work, Phil Foden not starting, I just worry that actually having this fear of not having all of your best players on the pitch and just looking at the balance a little bit, because I'm not a huge fan of Foden further up the pitch, and I think the fact that we're losing Rashford, we're losing Sterling, who were big goal scorers in the Southgate era, those games where Harry Kane isn't getting the goals, having someone else who's a bit more direct, who's got those instinctive abilities in the box, I just worry about Foden's ability to do that.

46:53And then I also worry if you put him in midfield, are you taken away from probably the best player on the pitch, Bellingham, are you taken away from his qualities? So is there a decision there where actually Foden doesn't start even though he's so good? I wouldn't put Foden in midfield, in the centre midfield. It's interesting because I was saying this off-air the other night to Joe Cole, I was saying against Iceland, England's going to get that, especially in the group stages where teams sit back. I would like to see Gareth bring Ivan Toni on alongside Harry Kane and have your wingers out wide, get balls in the box, you've got two centre-forward, back it up, sustain the attacks.

47:31I would like to just something a little bit different because that might be what we need to... You can't always break teams down and play through the lines, which Iceland showed you tonight and made it tough. So go round them, get it out wide, get crossed in the box. I think that was a missed opportunity from Gareth you didn't know. It's become the modern Gerard Lampard sort of Scholes thing, I think because there is an element of what you say that's absolutely true that you play Foden on the left is he going to be a goal scorer? Is it his best position? You play him centrally you're potentially standing on Bellingham's feet but not just that you're potentially opening up your midfield because Bellingham does have to play so Foden and Bellingham are in there and all of a sudden Rice is in number six position on his own which actually I think he's better himself, to be fair, being able to run forward.

48:18So there will be, this is not going to go away in this next few weeks, this sort of situation. Gareth will, I think, to be fair, have some time in the group, but there will come a point whereby you'll have to make those tough decisions and I think that where Foden plays, how you get Bellingham in and the balance is going to be critical. Foden will not play off the right, though, for Man City. So why not drop Saka, bring Gordon in? On a serious note, though, I'm being serious. Saka's just as important. I would not constantly play up in Saka. Foden was the best player in Europe last year. Saka wasn't.

48:55Saka's been much better for England than Foden has. So that's the things. But I just think because the season Foden's had, I would almost let him continue that and for this squad, for this tournament, I would build a team around Foden. I'd play Saka every time off the right. I'd play Anthony Gordon off the left. on Pelngham alongside Rice. I wouldn't drop Saka, personally. I wouldn't drop Saka. I wouldn't even think of it. But I also agree with you. If we can't get Phil forward in a game for England, then there's something wrong. I think we really are in that sort of... We are struggling. Because he is an unbelievable player.

49:33Anyway, we're going to get this... We've moved from squad to the team.

49:44We will come on to Scotland, by the way, at some point in the... It's fine, we're just loving the negative chat for the England fans. We're happy to be here, it's fine. You've no said you're going to win it. We're happy. That's the big nice thing with media's job. If that's coming, don't worry. So, the team that basically plays the first game against Serbia. There's no doubt, is there, about who's going to start in goal. it's going to be Jordan Pickford. Yeah, he's been brilliant in the previous tournament so I think he's just as important as Harry Kane. I think if he gets injured there's not a lot of experience at international level on the bench.

50:21Is anyone debating with the good argument Jordan Pickford is number one? Yeah, I was hoping we weren't going to get stuck there. OK, let's go to right back and there at the moment we've got Kyle Walker and is there any debate that Kyle Walker starts as right-back in the first game? No. England's best right-back ever. In any team. Different debate.

50:50Kyle Walker right-back, we're all in. OK, right-centre-back, I think we've pretty much got this first three settled. Obviously, there's a doubt or a concern over John Stones, but John Stones starts right-centre-back? Yeah, I'd start him, definitely, yeah. John Stones, right centre-back. Happy. OK, that left centre-back is where it starts to get a little bit complicated. We've got Gueye, we've got Gomez, we've got Dunk, we've got Konza. I don't know. Come on. I think just for form in the league and playing, I'd play Gueye, but... I'd be worried, but that's where I'd play. This is where we're missing Harry big time, isn't it?

51:32He's had a tough time. and for England he just does it. But Harry's been absolutely battered for England. Not by the fans. No, he has been absolutely, you know, if you think about it now, it's almost that sort of worry about what you've got until it's gone. He's as key for us as Kyle is, as Harry is. For me, it's a massive miss. I think that's the big, big out we've got. I think that's why I'm so surprised that Branthwaite's not there because obviously with Trippier being right-footed as well, I think Branthwaite would have given so much balance He's really good with his feet. He went over to Holland, was playing on loan in Holland before coming back to Everton, plays balls through the lines.

52:10He's a big lad, he's aggressive. I was shocked. That's probably the biggest shock for me, that he went in the squad, with Harry being left out. I mean, has anybody got... I mean, Waz has gone for Gay. Anybody think that it should be anyone else? I think it depends on the opposition. I think he'll look at the opposition and see what he's got to put up against what they've got and decide per match. change the centre-back pairing per match? Well, not every one, but if that's the centre-back that matches the opposition's... I mean, not just Gareth, but any manager, I think he'll want to select his centre-back pairing and he'll want to go with it.

52:49I can't think he's going to be rotating at centre-back. I'm not saying that he won't end up rotating anyway, but... I was just going to say, Mark, he's had a great two or three years for us. Obviously, the last part of this season he's been injured. He got injured against Brighton. He had an ongoing knee issue, I think, and ended up having an operation on it. And he missed a large part of the Oliver Glasner honeymoon period, as it was. But he's still somebody that I would trust completely on the ball. In terms of his game, he's a Rolls-Royce of a centre-back. I know that's a cliche. The issue I have is, one, the lack of tournament experience that he has, and two, the lack of height.

53:27because obviously the Harry Maguire element is a completely different physical specimen. And I do wonder whether or not he might get bombarded a little bit in the air. But in terms of his technical ability on the ball, I have no question about him being able to handle it at a national level. And to be honest, from a left-sided centre-back perspective, he's started there for us next to Anderson for the last three years and been as dependable as anyone. So from club form-wise, I don't have any question mark over it, but I understand why people are a bit jeetery. I don't think you'll get bombarded and I think the game's a bit different now and there's very few crosses what go into the play I mean set pieces will be an issue set pieces in Serbia with Mitovic could be a problem I wouldn't be surprised if when Luke Shaw's fit if he put him in there that wouldn't surprise me just to as we talk about experience and you go with Shaw and keep Tippi your left back I think he's played there for Manchester United he's done really well so that wouldn't surprise me later on in the tournament if that happens So, I mean, obviously, you talk about lack of experience, but this is the problem part of the team, isn't it, the left side of the defence?

54:32And I don't think we've got any other option but to play Trippier at left-back. The one injury that we're going to say is guaranteed out for Sunday is Luke Shaw. The rest of the concerns will say that they're fit. But I think Luke Shaw is out Sunday, we know that. So, is it just a guarantee that Trippier plays? It is, but for me, he's been really poor all season. He's had injuries as well, but he's been... Played sacker at left back. I thought during the night against Iceland he was poor again. Serious. He'll play, he has to play, but he hasn't been playing well for Newcastle. Billy's got an idea.

55:09It's a hard one, because, again, when you're trying to plan the team, you know, the team against each... I mean, you don't want to change it up against each team, but you know that Serbia, they're going to sit back, OK? And they've got Mitrovic up front. I mean, I'm a Brentford fan, so I just used to see him the whole time. Danger, balls in the air, really good in the air. So, and Gahit, I love him as a player. I think he's great. It's really exciting getting all these new players in. He's not the best player in the year as well. So, again, when you talk about the Harry Maguire thing, you think, you know, when they're gone, you sort of think, oh, he missed that guy.

55:37But then we thought, actually, we were having a chat, and I thought, TTA, okay, Trent, okay, on the right, okay, and flipping to the left as well. So... The two to the left, Kyle Walker to the left. Sorry, yeah, so Trent on the right-hand side and then flipping Kyle Walker to the left as well could be an option there as well because he's a good left-back, you can get the whip down that left-hand side as well and it sort of kind of deals with a couple of issues. So it's something that hasn't necessarily been talked about but you're thinking, how can you deal with this situation? Because everyone's always talking about how our defence is going to be a problem, maybe not necessarily in the group games but a bit later on.

56:15So that might be a lot. For me, if you do that, you could do that. The only way you could do that, though, is you keep Kyle Walker back and you build with the back three. So in possession, you build a three. So you have Walker, Gaye, Stones. Then you have Rice in the midfield. Then you have your front five. And you have Anthony Gordon playing one for one for me off the left. And Bellingham and Foden going to two number tens. Saka on the right. It's an interesting thought, but he has, to be fair, you know, he's named Trent as a midfield player. That's not to say he couldn't change him back to a right-back.

56:49But he seemed, I interviewed Trent, I think, two, three months ago. And I think he's had a conversation with Gareth that actually his future is in midfield for England. It's not like, he doesn't see him as a right-back, which is, you know, it's incredible because obviously he plays right-back for Liverpool. It would be, has Gareth got that in him to surprise us so close to a tournament to do something that we haven't seen before? Because, I mean, to be honest with you, Mikhail has played at the odd time there at left-back. Trent Alexander-Arnold on the right would be, I mean, he's amazing on the ball.

57:19And it would mean Stones could just slide across into that right sort of back zone where he's comfortable. And again, it's one of those things, I mean, as you say, Gareth hasn't necessarily played like that. I mean, he's going four at the back. And I just threw it as it was coming up on the train. Actually, this is a little option because you're thinking, how are you going to unlock Serbia as well? If they go down there and they're basically just kind of closing it up, you've got TTA. Well, I will say Serbia are different to what they have been. Serbia are very similar to England, where their strength is the attacking players, and the back line is the weakness.

57:48Where in the past, they've been a team who would sit back and make it difficult. I actually think Serbia will go at England. And I think the first game, I think it'll be a really open game. I mean, I think that's more... Gareth's more likely... Do we all agree Gareth's more likely to do this? Yeah. But we're picking your team. Are you sticking with that? Would you pick this or would you go with the solution of Trent? Yeah, I'd probably go with that. You'd stick with that. OK, midfield three. This has currently got... I think Bellingham and Rice we think are going to be in, don't we? Yeah. And it's a certainty.

58:24And you'd have them in as well, won't you? Where's Bellingham playing, though? Is he playing like that or is he playing like that? I'd go... a bit lopsided like that. With Trent in? With Foden. So Foden comes in for Trent. Where are you? Where are you, Foden? Is it the top? On the pitch. Oh, he's on the pitch. So what you're doing is almost a bit like this. So you're playing Bellingham a little bit deeper. A little bit deeper, but I think good night, even against Iceland, a big concern is, obviously it looks like this here, but when you're playing, England's similar to Man City in terms of they're playing in the opposition's half.

59:07So the back line is up here and you're playing in one half the pitch. Then you'd have Bellingham. Maynard was doing it, probably in Bellingham's position. Folden, Palmer was coming inside. Kane was dropping in. They were closing all the space up, so I'd have Bellingham a little bit deeper. Folden playing as a 10, allows them the space either side. And then Rice come near and keep the wit. Is anyone challenging this midfield? with good reason. Yeah, I challenge that, just because I think we'd be too vulnerable defensively in that situation. I think it gives Declan Rice a lot of responsibility. And the two full-backs, this isn't like previous major tournaments, in terms of Kieran Trippier's really struggled this season.

59:56And even Kyle Walker as well. I don't think he's going to have as much magic in terms of recovery for us as he has in previous tournaments. I think Southgate's really going to have to try and build a foundation defensively and take it from there. And I think by playing that midfield, it will really make it vulnerable. Obviously, it doesn't look like that defensively, so this is in possession. So, it would just allow me to do so defensively.

1:00:27Can I just put one there? Who is it? Whoever. Where's Gordon? You wanted Gordon in, didn't you? Where is he there? So defensively, you're very solid, a lot of teams do it now, with more 4-4-1-1, 4-4-2 defensively. Then actually, you've got players, Saka works, Gordon works, you've got players really close, closing the space to each other. And then you can force it to one side, so Harry Kane forces it this way, Foden presses out to this side, and you're very compact as a team. so you're hard to be so out of possession it's a lot different to what you are and then in possession all it is is is that it just moves a little a little bit slightly so it's not too big a distance to to go from from possession to out of possession so I think I think what you're saying makes sense but I think what you're saying I think Gareth thinks I think I think That's purely because of the lack of players here.

1:01:33I've got this feeling that he loves Gallagher. Gallagher, yeah. He may not throw him at us in game one, because he might think that'll just set off on a negative tone of putting Gallagher alongside Rice with Bellingham advanced. Because I think, personally, the team I think he wants to go for is... He'll be folding off the left. Is that. That's what he'll end up doing. So, for me, I think where Gareth's going to end up is to get that sort of extra runner, that legs, that one who can go and basically take the ball off people because he is really good at that. It actually, to be fair, in some ways, sometimes allows him to be able to just be a little bit...

1:02:08Because I think he's amazing when he's driving forward. That's where I think he's at his best, actually. I don't think he's a number six. I actually don't think he's that great when he's receiving the ball from deep like some of the great, if you like, number sixes do. I think he wants him in, but I don't think he'll start and give us that to start with. I actually think he'll put Trent in there on Sunday. And that will almost be deemed as an acceptable bridge between sort of giving us Foden, Bellingham and Rice and what will be the more... It's not as sexy, is it, Conor Gallagher, with respect.

1:02:42And it will get a bit of an ooh from... You know, England fans will just think the team's announced. You just know what's going to happen when that... No disrespect to him, because I think he's a really good player. But you're going with, let's go back to what you want to do. Baza, which is where did Uda kick out? So you want Bellingham a bit deeper, you want Rice in there, you want Foden there, and you want Anthony Gordon on that left. So where is Anthony Gordon going? So why him there? I think he's different. He's the one player. Well, Saka does as well, but maybe not as much as Gordon. He runs off the ball, he runs in behind, he takes the ball, he'll commit players, and he'll hold the width.

1:03:19You've seen him doing it for Newcastle. He'll keep the width here, which allows more space for these players here. I think all the other wingers, Eze likes to come inside. Who else has gone on the left? Well, Parma could play there, potentially. Parma could play there, but their biggest strength is all coming inside. He's the one player who will hold the wit and make it difficult. If teams sit back, you need wit. You need to keep moving it from side to side to create opportunities. Is anyone challenging the midfield three? I know you've challenged it with the two open. I think if you're playing a bigger team, a better team, I'd be worried, I'll be honest with you, with that three in midfield.

1:03:59I just would be. I just don't think it gives that back for enough protection. And I don't think he's the most... He's not a Rodri in terms of defensive stability. Is anyone thinking that... Is anyone challenging that for Sunday? Is that the team that you would all go with? I know you've said no, you'd rather have some more solidity. everyone's having that I don't think he'll do that on Sunday by the way that's my team so your team is that but you think he'll go yeah he'll play forwarding off the left so you think he will play forward and he'll either play Gallagher or 10 to what you were saying ok so let's finish on your team is this your team that's where I'd start ok is anyone challenging Wazza on Gordon on the left I think that telepathy between Trippier and Gordon works I think Saka and Walker does the job there.

1:04:50He's played with him. He knows him. He knows him inside out, doesn't he? Trippier knows what Gordon does. I think it could be a key partnership for us on the left. Because we are weaker down the left. Does Palmer not get in to start? Yeah. I don't think he'd start, personally. Even though he's had a fantastic season, I just feel as though, like you said, it's strange. because we can debate it and pick it apart and look at different formations. But I find it curious in a way that you'll be like, Gareth will go with this to appease the masses to an extent and he won't put Gallagher on us in the first game.

1:05:30My point is he won't appease the masses. I think the only thing will be is he might think he needs more creativity against Serbia who might play deeper. But I think he'll have in the back of his mind also it would bring a negative spin if he played Gallagher first game. I have no doubt that if we were playing different opposition, he would put Gallagher in, potentially. I mean, obviously, we watched Gallagher up close at Palace for a full season and he is genuinely, you know, he's a dynamo in the midfield. He'll do all the groundwork, as it were. I do worry against the better opposition in the latter stages that, I mean, we've said it time and time again already, if you have so much of an attack-heavy team and you have an inexperienced back four and a left particularly, you can just have too many cooks spoiling the broth.

1:06:17And, you know, Anthony Gordon's great off the left and Cole Palmer's great and he's had a fantastic season for Chelsea. But that lack of big experience, I just feel as though there's something coming around the corner where someone's going to get thrown to the Lions and I'm not quite sure who it is. OK, so this is Wazza's team. What is the team that you think Gareth will play? So you think Foden will go left. I think Foden will go left, Dudes will go in there and he'll either bring 10th or Gallagher. So you think Trent or Gareth? So which one do you have to pick one? Where's Trent gone? I wouldn't pick Hennington, but...

1:06:51LAUGHTER Which one do you think Gareth's going to go for? I think he'll go with Trent. I think he's... probably the most gifted player with the ball at his feet we've got. Defensively, he's all over the place. He can't defend. I wouldn't have him anywhere near the middle of the pitch. Evening midfield? No. I've no problem playing him here. I think in here, I wouldn't have him anywhere near there. and I love Trent actually I think on the ball stuff he can do no one else can do it but anything else I've doubts over Trent in midfield I think Trent's not really a midfielder I think Trent really wants to be a midfielder but I think the role that he's got at Liverpool is that hybrid right back he drifts in that suits him perfectly but I think someone and I also love Trent someone needs to have a hard conversation with Trent to say you don't have to that hierarchy where the midfielder is the most important player isn't true.

1:07:46We've got specialised midfielders who play there throughout the entire season, but Trent's had a word with Southgate and says, actually, I'm playing the midfield. Is that how it's gone? No. I think they've both basically... I think Gareth Moore had a word with Trent and said, look, I see you more as a midfield player than the right-back. Because at the time, he had the options of Trippier, Walker, Rhys James. He just said, look, I'll be honest with you, your best chance to get in, I think, is midfield. I think that's the sort of conversation. I don't think Trent's going over to him and said, you know I'm playing midfield tomorrow I didn't think of it like Wayne just said in terms of his defensive attributes I thought about how good he is on the ball in midfield and that was all I was concentrating because I picked him in my first 11 but yeah I didn't really think about the defensive aspect of it I thought maybe playing him there damages his Trent's biggest deal which is his switch of play well 100 % we go into the quad final you play in France Trent is not playing in midfield Gareth will not put Trent for me I don't think Gareth trusts him enough to play him in midfield and he has his doubts the same way I do about playing midfield that's when you're going to see Gallagher or you're going to see Maynard probably in there I don't think he trusts Trent defensively which I think he's right to but in the games where you're going to dominate possession I think you probably will see him in them I don't want to get bogged down on this but there is a strong feeling around England winning this tournament?

1:09:10Will England win this tournament?

1:09:16For me, it'd be England or Portugal. I think. Not even France? No, I think England would be France. I think England or Portugal. Wow. I don't know how it goes on what side they're on. England can play France in the quarters, semis. If we win the group, it's semis. I think Portugal only at the side. I think England or Portugal win them. If Shaw comes back and he can play and he's fit, then I think... You can't go to Luke fucking Shaw after that! What do you mean? He just said England or Porta are going to win the tournament! England are going to win the tournament! That was an hour and 20 minutes ago, mate!

1:09:55I just think that if Luke Shaw can play, we've got a really good chance. Right. Anybody think England are not going to win this tournament? Stick your hand up and tell us why. Forget the Scotland fans.

1:10:12You've got it. Niamh? I hope it wasn't just me and the Scotland fans. No, it wasn't. One more. Steve at the front. I just think what I worry about is I think other elite nations, their defence speaks for itself in terms of they can set out with their best players defensively and their attacking players, those adrenaline moments, they get goals. Whereas I've got this real concern that because we'll be so in our head, will kind of go into the games with the mentality that we are the inferior team, even when we are not the inferior team, because we're so worried about our defensive situation. And also, I just think the fact we've lost three huge goal scorers in Rashford, Sterling and Maguire even, for England, they've just gone and we're putting that reliance on players who have literally barely been at major tournaments.

1:10:55I must admit, I'll come to you, Steve, in a second, where I was at a month or so ago was I thought it was going to be us or France. I thought we had a real chance. I must admit, when I look at the defence, I'm really struggling to understand how we win that tournament. And that's not down to, if you like, anything. It's more the collective back four. And my concern, actually, is that's a team that could actually get beat earlier than we think. Not because of this, necessarily. But if something doesn't happen up here, my concern would be that it may be a struggle just because of what's happened in the last, if you like, flu.

1:11:31I think Maguire is a calming presence. Steve, why can't we win it? It's the same as you. I just don't think the quality's there. I feel like the back four... We're sort of all here now trying to pigeonhole players in certain positions that aren't really their positions. That's not the England way. We should have a set squad, two in each position, where we look at the squad and go, if he's not fit, he can come in. I look at that squad and I don't. I feel like the centre-back... I agree. When you're looking at that, you're trying to put players in and you don't know who's going to play. I watched Holland last night and the balance of Holland's squad.

1:12:05You see Ake, Van Dijk, Memphis Depay. The balance went with Nalgam, whatever I should say. But the balance of their squad was brilliant. I'm just worried that there's no balance. If you look at the top two teams in England in the Premier League, and it's different, but if you look at what they've done in the last few years, if you look at what Pep's done to win the Champions League, effectively have four really solid defenders, six probably solid defenders if you look at what Arteta's done in the last 12 months he's built that I mean obviously they're good going forward as well but he's built that challenge for City this season off an improved defence if you think about it with regards to what they've done I feel like the centre-backs are not aggressive enough as well John Stones is not an aggressive centre-back I think he likes the ball at his feet play it out when he's got Diaz next to him at City Diaz attacks everything I feel like if anyone puts it on us at the back there we're weak and I feel like Harry Kane sometimes drops into that pocket and he's crowding Phil Foden and the work the midfielders are doing.

1:13:03I feel at City, Haaland keeps them defenders away and he creates that space where we can work. That was happening against Iceland quite a bit. And that's why I feel like he needs to get a grip of that. And I just, I don't know, I look at Gareth and I don't think he's a brave manager. I don't think he's got anything in his mind in a game where he can all of a sudden turn or make a decision where you think, hold on a minute, that's a bit mad, but it works. I've seen Pep do it. I've seen other managers do it. It's like, I know you shut me down before when I said Saka at left-back, but I've had a conversation with a few people, and I thought, if you can play Palmer on the right, you can play Bukaya Saka on the left, he's left-footed.

1:13:36Anyone in particular you spoke to that sort of supported your idea of Saka at left-back? You said he's about to defend, and now you're putting Saka in there. I think Saka's a better left-back than Trippio. No, but I just wonder whether Gareth's been toying with thinking about, you mentioned Walker at left-back, about Konza at right-back, and you think of Kivior at Arsenal playing left-back, and sort of Ake play at left-back. There has been a movement in this last couple of years. I've seen Fabian Delft left back, Centurion City, you know that. Yeah, I mean, what I'm saying is there's been a movement this last couple of years.

1:14:04This idea of flying full-backs hasn't happened in the last couple of years in the top two teams in the country. There's more of an actual feeling that even Shaw United... It'll happen like that. That's how they'll play.

1:14:22And Kyle what? That's how they'll play.

1:14:29He won't go forward and they'll let go of him one for one. At least you're saying England and Portugal, England can still win the tournament. I still think they can. I think they'll have a solid group. For me, the France game is whoever wins that, I think Portugal will be really strong. Whoever wins that will have a chance, but I think England can be France.