Scholes and Carra Reveal the Secrets of Punditry! | The Overlap Fan Debate

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1:53That's B-O-M-B-A-S.com and use code audio at checkout. That statement always stuck me when I first started doing it. Tell them something they don't know. And I still don't think I've done it yet. Do you ever get the fear of what you say? Why get a backlash? No. The only people it should affect players is what the manager thinks, really. I always get asked to do, stop it there. Yeah, that's it. I had a player this year who contacted me who wasn't happy with some of the things he said. Paul Scholes, I never prepared for a game. It's going to be I cannot read Paul Scholes. All right.

2:42Would you ever reach out to them and call them out on anything? That's my problem. I need to stop doing that. I regret nearly everything I said.

2:55Welcome to a new episode of The Fan Debate, brought to you by Skybet. And this week, we're going to be speaking about punditry. We're all pundits, aren't we? Are you classed as punditry? Yeah. We'll take that. Yeah, you'll take that. I'm going to get the same wages as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You are. I'm claiming it. Yeah. All right, Scorsi, I'll start with you. So I think there was a big thing, probably before you got on the team, was when Ryan Giggs come onto the scene at Manchester United and Alex Ferguson how he used to deal with them in terms of interviews so I mean how did you find doing interviews as a young player and getting used to sort of what the media was about yeah I hated them really didn't like having to do them but it's something you've got to do I always remember we I think there's a clip on social media we used to have lessons and honestly I couldn't speak I think we had two fellas from Radio Manchester, JMR, and there's like the six or seven of us, obviously the lads that were coming through, and you're in one room doing the interview, the pretend interview, and the other six or seven lads are in the other room.

4:02Fuck it, I don't know. What are they going to do? They're just going to be pissing themselves laughing at me. Honestly, I just couldn't get anything out. A bit like that, really. Stuttering all the time, just couldn't say words. I hated it, absolutely hated it, but with anything, you get used to it. What was the transition like then? sort of coming to the end of your career and then you go into sort of Pundritch? How have you found that going from, you know, playing football to talking about football? I made a mistake really. At the end of me playing that, I never really prepared for anything.

4:33I never prepared to be a coach and I never thought in a million years I'd do Pundritch to do this kind of stuff. I just, and I don't know how much preparation you can do that for. You might be different because obviously you've been doing it a long time. Maybe that was something you was going to go into. But I always thought I'd do a little bit of coaching and I did go into coaching at first I did that for six months maybe but didn't really enjoy it that much I think it takes your life over really it is 24-7 and then I think Gary asked me to do a game I did a game for Sky the first one I ever did was the Manchester Derby we got beat which time?

5:13what year? fucking hell I reckon around 13, 14 it was at Old Trafford a night game that's all I remember alright good night and again I was really nervous about doing it I was thinking about it for two days guys had asked me a few times and I was like no no no what were you nervous about speaking about or being critical about other players yes just speaking really and being critical of your own club because it isn't nice and I think Rio I had a bit of a poor night that night, actually, and I think I might have said a couple of things about Rio, and you don't really realise when, well, I didn't realise when I went into it that for two or three days after, whatever you're saying, it's like it's in the papers, it's here, there, it's repeated everywhere.

6:01So I reckon for the first 10 or 15 years, I thought, I can't do this anymore. I just don't like it. I think you've got to have a certain way about you, and some people can do this. that they can be critical but have a nice way about doing it I don't know what you mean but I just couldn't because because you give me a couple of tips on that I know it is hard to do well you're probably the same and I think probably Roy's the same as well but then there's other people you think of people like Alan McCoy's story and right when they they give a bit of criticism but there's a nice way of doing it because they'll have a big smile on their face where I'm quite miserable so it always looks nasty when it comes from me do you know what I mean would you I mean it's funny that you mention Rio there because you remember it's stuck in your head yes would you rather not or do you feel do you feel more comfortable doing United games or speaking about you know players that you know a little bit better than others no I prefer I only do United games now I very rarely did any other games that weren't United because I I want to watch United I want to be at the United games you know what I mean and I think it's I don't know if I've been unlucky but ever since I started doing it, it's not been great, Adam.

7:16No, as I say, I don't think I saw him win for a long time. Performances are bad. You look terrible having a go at your club when that's the club you played for for 20 years. It's the last thing you want. It'd be so easy if you're a Manchester City player for the last 10 years. This year for Liverpool, it's brilliant when that kind of thing happens, but where we are now, it makes you look like a bit of a villain Jamie obviously there's criticism you and Gary have both had it about doing sort of Liverpool and Manchester United co-commentating I'm talking I'm not in the studio but analysing I don't think anyone I think in fact when you're on with Manchester United I think as a I'm not a Manchester United fan but I listen to what you're saying because it's your club sort of thing because you are you don't mind a bit like you're tackling you don't mind throwing a little bit of a two footer in the times people are listening you know what I mean people are listening to it but what do you think about do you think it's fair is not the right word I guess but what's your opinion on sort of co-commentating on Liverpool because obviously you want Liverpool to win because if I'm I don't watch Liverpool but if I'm watching a game and one of the co-commentators is affiliated with that team I think that's a little bit sort of like disrespectful to the listening audience who support the other team I think it's fine if it's I know years ago Sky sometimes would have one of each I know that like in our city Radio City used to have like derbies they'd have Liverpool pool, ex-Liverpool, ex-Everton or whatever.

8:44So what's your view on that? How do you sort of... Was it all right when Andy Gray was doing all the Everton games? No, I'm straight. No, I'm just asking now. I'm just asking now. I think co-commentary is, you know, you've never done it. It is a poison chalice. It's like, whoever's doing it for any team is trending on social media. It's like, they're the one. So I don't know if there's a lot of people who want to do it. There's very few players now. They want to be a pundit. No one wants to do co-commentary. I want to sit in the studio so that's number one you do get abused don't you you get abused don't you yeah yeah yeah but I think brilliant for you doing like a game that is in Liverpool absolutely and Gary the same with like Man United that's all honestly I quite like watching them celebrate though don't you you know when it shows the camera too no because they win all the time I don't mind that do you I don't want to see him celebrate Sky do that for the Man United Liverpool game because we're both on the team and you play up to it a bit I mean the camera's not normally there but it's funny because people say I'm biased to Liverpool but I can assure you if you look at my social media a lot of Liverpool fans say no he goes the other way to prove he's not biased and you're like fuck it and you can't win you know what I mean I just mean in general what do you view no I don't think it is a problem I think I think if you look at social media no matter who the co-commentator is and you'll have two sets of supporters say it's Villa v Newcastle they're both convinced you're against their team it's like you can't you can't win now the problem Well, it's not a problem for me.

10:13But I think as a co-commentator, the big thing or the best bit about it is a last-minute goal. A goal in the last few minutes and you've got to reflect the stadium. It's like you've got to go mad. So I do a lot of Liverpool games. Liverpool score a lot of late goals. They did under Klopp and they win most of the time. So, you know, it's... Liverpool don't lose that often. You know, and if they do have a spell with it out, I'll be getting accused of being too critical maybe by Liverpool supporters. So I've got to the stage where I did think about it, where it was like, am I too far the other way?

10:49Sometimes if Liverpool aren't, am I too hard on Liverpool if they're not doing well? And in the end, I've just thought, you know what, I'm just going to say what I think. And if subconsciously I am biased to Liverpool on something or I maybe get more excited about a goal, it's me, that's the way I am. So I don't get bothered by social media now. You didn't do it for a while, did you? The co-commentary. No, I think it's something you've got to learn. Gary really pushed me to do it. Not that he's the boss of Skyping. The boss of everything. No, but the thing it is, if you just sit in the studio all the time, for me, I get bored of it.

11:28So I like doing a little bit of everything. And if you can put up with the criticism of co-commentary on social media, and some people can't, I mean, it doesn't bother me, but the feeling when the game's good is like, you feel like you're in the game. And sometimes when you come from a game called commentary and then we'll go back into the studio, you feel like someone's died in the studio. You're like, can that lad just had a great game? It's like the come down, you feel like you get in there, it's so flat because in the game, there's an atmosphere and the game's end to end. It's like you feel like you're playing.

12:11So, yeah, Jamie, when it comes to, you know, saying stuff about players and X-Pros, whatever it might be, do you ever get the fear of, like, what you say might get a backlash? So, obviously, recently, there was a bit of hurrah around the AFCON, your comments about that, and, like, that backlash that you received. Does it change your thought process when you're thinking about what to say? Do you think, oh, if I say that, someone might react differently? Or do you feel like, yeah, you might not say your true sort of reflection of a game or about a player because you're worried about the backlash?

12:38No. No, I just... The thing that I know I can always say is I say what I think. It's not like... And the reason about what I always say, when people say Liverpool, I'm biased with Liverpool's sake, but that can only trip me up in the future because a similar situation will always come up with another club. And if I've said something different there, I mean, you can't remember everything you say. We talk that much about the game, but I've got a general opinion on things, whether it's a contract or whether it's this. So last week, a perfect example on the overlap, I defended Liverpool's owners a little bit in terms of the three contract situation.

13:15Now, I know everybody's opinion on that is a club should never let three players get to this situation. But it's a little bit more detail about it than just almost having a similar view for every club. So I was a bit like, I know I'm going to get criticism for saying that. I don't know the Liverpool owners. I've got no relationship with them. I haven't got a job at the club. But I'm going to say what I think, and I've said that before, but it wouldn't get as much highlight because it was up on, it wasn't Liverpool. So I've always had this view that people always say, oh, a club's terrible, you can't let a player's contract run down.

13:46You can't stop them. I'm like, do we not know this? A player doesn't sign a contract, there's nothing you can do. You say, oh, sell them. I'm not going. You know what I mean? So this idea that we batter clubs all the time, oh, you can never let this happen. Now, of course, you don't want it to happen in a business point of view, you don't want it to happen. You might try and force someone out. but if someone doesn't want to leave they can't go so even I'll know I got battered for that but that situation will come up in three years time and it'll be Arsenal or it'll be Tottenham and I'll say exactly the same thing do you know what I mean so I think you've got to be careful of this idea that like oh I've got to look after my club or another club because you'll just get yourself you'll trap yourself basically and you'll just look like a hypocrite I think you just have to be honest don't you exactly going back to your question I think if you start thinking about what's going to happen in the next two or three days and I did that I'd say for the first five to ten games fucking hell I've just said something there or sometimes you don't even know what you've said and you'll see it again the next day and the next day I think honestly it's just the most important thing and as I said with my football club people can see do you know what I mean fans are knowledgeable they know if you're lying or you're trying to bullshit them a little bit so honestly is the best possible You mentioned as well when you spoke about Rio for example if you spoke about an ex-pro or one of your mates would they call you up and be like why are you saying that for because I know Shana got annoyed with Rero didn't he yeah I think players can be a little bit touching these days I don't know what Jamie was like when he was playing whether we I don't think it was probably weren't as critical was it I think the I think you had a little bit I tell you I had a player I told Jamie this that this year he contacted me he wasn't happy with some of the things he said and he wanted to meet me and I told you I had to scrap.

15:34Big around the corner. Yeah. No, he wanted to meet me at the training ground. Well, he did want to. Would he have been at Carrington? Pardon? Would he have been at Carrington? Yeah. Ooh. Yeah, and I said, yeah, yeah, of course we'll have no problem. Here's my number. And he never got back to me, but I would have done it. You know, I'm saying things that I believe, and if he wants me to explain what I believe, then it probably wouldn't have been a nice conversation. and I just said, look, if you and anybody else has got a problem then I'll come and speak to you, no problem. There's my phone number.

16:07We surprised Anthony contacted you. And that scolds you. It wasn't him. Remember Kino's interview for MUTV? Yeah. That Fergie kicked off about. How did that go down in the dressing room then? And have you seen it? Because I've wanted to see it all my life. Yeah, I think the manager did show it to us in his office. He was like he is now. Honestly, he was just being very honest. He was very critical of the performance. Rightly so, we were off on the day. It's what we had to do. It was in our contract. It was a programme analysing the game. We all had to do it. We all had to take turns each at doing it.

16:47But Roy was Roy. Roy was very honest as he's going to be. Roy's exactly the same as he is now. He was critical of a few of the players. The manager didn't like it. The manager didn't accept it. Obviously, we all know what happened afterwards. How do you think that dressing room would have reacted to now? You've not just got Sky, you've got CBS, TN. You've got all these different channels now and all these different pundits. You've got gobshires, high cost. How do you think that dressing room would have reacted to it? We wouldn't have cared because we didn't merely care what people said. We were winning a lot as well, do you know what I mean?

17:21So we were probably in a decent situation. It might have been different for Liverpool. they might have been different for other teams who had been there like your Arsenal's and your Liverpool's who were probably under a lot of pressure Jamie when he was playing because they had come after such a successful team but we weren't in that position so we probably didn't get that much criticism, there were criticism at times don't get me wrong of course there was but I think what we say it shouldn't affect a player the only people it should affect players is what the manager thinks really the managers, coaching staff, your teammates, whatever's said on TV, really, take it with a pinch of salt.

18:01I'm not sure how many players these days actually watch football anyway and watch what I'm saying. Obviously, there was one United player who obviously took a bit of offence to what I said. But, yeah, so well, you just deal with it. If he needs an explanation, I'm pretty sure Jamie would be the same as well. If somebody wanted an explanation at a meeting or coffee, or whatever it was I'd be more than happy to give it and I'm pretty sure you would as well Yeah I mean there's one player with me it was Daniel Sturridge he was still playing at the end with Klopp and it was funny you wouldn't believe this but when I'd stopped playing for a couple of years Liverpool asked me and Stevie Gerrard to go on the end of season game in Australia you wouldn't believe Liverpool couldn't sell the tickets to fill out the stadium so they asked me Stevie and Steve McManaman to play with the team so we ended up playing and Daniel as I sort of said they need to sell Daniel Sturridge and he fronted me in the dressing room when we got over there and you know what I was a bit like fair play you know what I mean good on yeah you know what I mean but there's nothing worse I think if someone backs down so I wasn't going to back not that it was a big argument but you know like sometimes maybe if I was a player or a journalist I might say something and he backed down and go sorry I didn't mean no but he just fronted it you've said it you've said it so back it up Simon you got a question yeah I do so I mean you kind of answered it but I guess you have because you both can answer it really interestingly.

19:25You were the co-coms where maybe you're sort of firing off from your brain a bit quicker. And obviously in the punditry, when you're back in the studio, you have time to think about it. Has there ever actually been something when you've thought back and gone, I do regret saying that, I shouldn't have said it. Not necessarily I was wrong, but with the hindsight of, you know, a week, two weeks, you actually think today, I do regret saying that, and I shouldn't have done it. You know what? There's probably loads of things, really, but you look back, and as you say, sometimes there is nothing in time maybe on co-commentary or something.

19:53you go strong on the line, you think, it's out now, you know, you can't take it back. Leave the football before the football leaves you. You don't regret that. That's iconic. I was... I regret nearly everything I said. I mean, it was harsh, that, but I was trying to make the point of that, like, this guy has been, Casemiro's been like, that Madrid team, the Israeli team, oh my God, you're all used to, like, Champions League, you're playing in, like, a mid-table Premier League game and looking almost out of your depth in the mid-table it's like that's what it felt like I was watching you know we've all seen great sportsmen and that's why I said that because the reason I said is it's always stuck in my own head it was a quote from a goal keeper I read in an interview years ago and it was one of the reasons why people always say to me oh you could have played another year and I always take that as the fact that that means I was right to retire you know I hate that one especially being what Casemiro was a whole midfield player or I was a centre-back.

20:54Because I think when you're an attacker, you can come off, you can come on soap. If you don't have a great game, but when you're almost costing your team, they're the positions where you can actually lose you the game. If you're not doing your best at the top end of the pitch, you're not costing your team. You're not winning them the game, but you're not costing them. So that was one that's up there. I'll apologise when I see you.

21:21it's time for our new game on the winning track brought to you by train line their best price guarantee means you won't find cheaper same-day train tickets anywhere else and even if you do train line will refund the difference exclusions and conditions apply search best price guarantee on trainline.com. Right, this is the Trainline segment on the winning track. That's what we're doing, the new competition. Fans will compete against each other to identify a mystery footballer. The only clues they will receive will be the badges of the teams where they played. First team appearances only, no loan spells.

21:56And the winning team will receive a Trainline voucher that will come out in handy in the next away day. So on this one, we've got Baz, Bigarret, and... Oh, Baz. Raise the hand, shout out your name to make sure you can get in there first. And we'll go from there. So we're going to go with the first player, Scolsey. Tottenham. I might as well go straight to the next one. Could be anyone. Couldn't be Aguero. I think I'd get it with this next one. Middlesbrough. There we go, I can't remember. Yeah. Yeah. This could be the next one. Could do it. Oh, not Estes. The same place as Liverpool. I can't remember where to put Liverpool.

22:36I can't remember where to put Liverpool. Everton Come on Baz Oh my god Baz Someone's going to get it now Liverpool Nick Barby Yes Yes

22:54So that's 1-0 to Baz On the first player Right Mystery player 2 Go on go with the first Middlesbrough Yeah Aston Villa Come on Baz Liverpool

23:13Yeah I'll have a go Shearer Downing Yeah

23:24Might be the only derby when we get this week 2-0 to Baz but we'll carry on the game because we're new to the game we need to keep learning about the game and mystery player number three I'm stuck Swansea oh jeez he's in trouble that's Wales isn't it down that's Bristol isn't it yeah what's getting on with when you're doing that way I don't know because I'm fucking facing this way get it there South Wales yeah Liverpool yeah oh you just didn't put his hand up I was going to go on after the first one. Too well. Yeah, we do. Well done, Gary. We love it. Remember to download the Trainline app and search best price guarantee on trainline.com.

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26:29Hannah, have you got one? Yeah, I think you've both kind of said that you've had different journeys into doing punditry, like Paul, perhaps it wasn't your bag to start with. It seems like previous pros that are kind of coming out of the game have two paths to go down a lot of the time. They either go down the coaching route, whether that's successful or not, or they go down the media route, whether it's punditry or they write for papers or whatever. But, you know, do you have advice for some of them that are perhaps coming out of the game and maybe they're in Paul's position where you're not really sure what to do.

27:01Because I think there's probably some that try the punditry route and it's just not for them or that some just don't have perhaps the best things to say or it just doesn't suit their character. But it doesn't feel like there's many options after football, but so many people want to stay in the game. So did you feel like it was kind of coaching or punditry or nothing? Yeah, as I got to the end of my career, probably different to Scolese in that, I was thinking, what do I want to do? So I started doing my coaching badges. And at the same summer, I went to the Euros, Euro 2012. So I was still a player.

27:37So I wanted to try a little bit of both and see what I liked. I didn't enjoy the coaching. And I loved the summer talk. Just being around football, people talking football. I was at Roy. so the panel there was three pundits but there was four of us and we'd all split the games so it was Garrett Southgate Roy Keane me and Roberto Martinez so you're thinking like the people you're chatting to after the games in the bar at the end spending all the time and I thought oh this is I enjoyed it so I sort of dipped my toe into both before I finished and went down the punditry route but I do think with the players coming out of the game now because you know it's one of the best players and the most successful ones don't you the ones who've played the biggest games but I think they only want to do the best games as well which is normal but I don't think the best players are now going to be being no disrespect to Norwich on a Friday night you know what I mean with the travel you understand me?

28:32Me and Gary have been there we were in the Zord balls bashing into each other Not a bad place to go normally let alone at night time I think the future of punditry for the companies might be players signing like 10 game deals and if you notice a lot of people as well, you don't want to just put themselves at one so when I first joined Sky, it was like you were with Sky, there was none of this like crossover, but now it's like people are on Sky they're not on BBC, they're on something else and it's like, I want to do what I want to do and Sky have almost, and probably the other companies have almost had to bite the bullet a little bit and just say, well okay, we accept that people basically aren't just with one team So I think that's definitely the future of where it's going.

29:17I think it's a good point, though, making out that when you finish football, what are you going to do? There's only two options. That's what does come to your mind and it's what you enjoy doing, I suppose. Sir Alex always wanted me to go into coaching. He always wanted me to do something at the club once I retired. You almost felt you were forced into it a little bit. I did six months with Warren Joyce with the reserve team, but I didn't really coach. I was supposed to be a coach. I ended up training every day and just training with the players. Do you know what? I really enjoyed it. I loved that side of it.

29:55And obviously I did a couple of coaching things. Obviously the Oldham thing wasn't great. I did Salford for four weeks as well while we were looking for a new manager. And it's not something I'd go looking for, but when I did it, I actually quite enjoyed it. Now, your point about only having two things, I think that probably is right. I had some vision, I don't know why, that I was going to do nothing when I retired. I was just going to play golf every day. I thought that's what retirement was. But then you quickly realise you're at home for six months. You're fucking, what am I going to do? I'm bored senseless.

30:30You've got to pay them bills, haven't you? And you've got to pay some money. But is retirement now a bit different? Because a lot of players, their careers are lasting longer. and like you say, Jamie, the media landscape's a lot different. There's way more platforms to do. There's people doing more on social media. And they're on more money as well. And more money. The whole media sphere around football is totally different to when even you both retire. So do you think it's changed for people who are retiring in the future? Yeah, I think we're lucky, aren't we? The Premier League is the biggest, the best.

31:03There's so many jobs and roles. They're not just in this country, in different countries. I mean you know we're looking at me that we've played in the Premier League and what the Premier League has become now and I just think when I'm at a big game I think you know my whole life has been you know going to watch Everton as a kid playing for Liverpool all my career and then going to Anfield or Man United or City and I'm watching the best players and you're walking around stadiums and in dressing rooms and you're thinking it's alright this you know what I mean it's good so it's like sometimes I do stop myself and think we're lucky you know we've got this league a couple of Christmases ago and just walking down the street and there was just like tellies with like the Premier League just on left, right and centre and just like it just almost feels like it's taken over the world doesn't it you know so we're probably lucky that we've done okay in our careers that gives us the opportunity but there are a lot of opportunities now for people who've played in the Premier League because the Premier League's so great It probably is the next best thing and I don't know you probably feel the same Jamie when there is a big game there's that excitement there when you go even though you're not playing you you know you've been there you've felt that excitement and you just it's just good being there do you know what I mean whatever happens in the game it doesn't matter just being there I almost think sometimes the talk about the game is better than the game you make those games up all the way it goes a lot longer as well doesn't it so you become part of the conversation even more because you jump onto what you said some of the things you watch after the game especially with the Skylines I remember watching I don't know if it was a United-Liverpool game I think it was you guys Roy I think Jose Mourinho might have been on it but for an hour and a half after watching that it was better than the game I think I remember this you put it on social media saying how good it was and you were working for BT and you deleted it didn't you

32:54this is must see TV that one of the things you regretted Amy, did you have a question? Yeah, actually mine follows on a little bit from Hannah's. So I originally trained as a journalist. Sports journalism was what I was hoping to do and I was lucky to do it for a little bit at a little local station in Ipswich. But it was super competitive, as you would expect. And one of the things that got talked a lot about at the time was the fact that so many ex-players were coming into commentary and how that then sort of shrunk the opportunities. Something that's just come to mind while listening to everybody else talk is there's a lot of comments probably social media but about particularly around female commentators if they haven't played the men's game they shouldn't be talking about the men's game so a do you agree with that but then b what would your advice be to young students who are training up within journalism now about to face almost the competition with ex-players as it's one of very few options after the career, you know, what can they do to make it so that we've got other voices in the media, not just people who've been in the game.

34:07So you're talking specifically about commentary or co-commentary? Probably co-commentary, I suppose, more than punditry, because as you, you know, as you guys have said, there's an option for that. Or maybe punditry, you know, sort of for bigger stations and for bigger broadcasters, there's so many of them out there, but your Skies, your BBCs, it's incredibly hard to get a job at the top end of that. What would the advice be to be able to keep developing? I don't really know what the advice would be as such. I mean, you've got to keep pushing doors, haven't you? And I think a big thing in punditry, I think, is I think there's so much criticism now for pundits, men or women, about your views, basically.

34:51and I think being able to handle sort of, we talk about the scrutiny that we give to players and yet it's more now than it was before when we were playing. It was just basically Andy Gray, Alan Hansen, Sky, Match of the Day. Now there's so many voices out there. So I think for men and women, it's dealing with that, how the social media aspects, I think it's getting pretty nasty out there and I think it is more so for women. And, you know, listen, it's a toxic place anyway, isn't it? Social media, no matter what we're talking about. But in terms of a woman talking about the men's game, whether it's a pundit or a co-commentator, I think being able to...

35:32Not that you should have to actually pour up with that. Yeah. I think that that is tough, and that's probably for everybody across the board, isn't it? There was rumours, Match of the Day, potentially having an all-female line-up at one point, and the uproar, how wrong that is. Well, they've not played the game, so how can they know? It's like, well, hang on, how many journalists are out there that have never played the game and they have bright careers from it? So I just find that a really strange viewpoint for people to take and it does always feel like it's aimed at women as opposed to the male journalists because that's kind of, they almost get away with it a bit more, but maybe I'm a bit biased.

36:09Well, I get told on a daily basis I can't talk about the league title because I never won one. Are you right? you only you only six it's all seven talking about like people that haven't played the game what are dressing rooms do you get an insight into what dressing rooms think about idiots like us like give an opinion I think as long as they talk sense yeah look if you if you say something stupid then then players and teams in the dressing room will say what the fuck what's he on about does Erling Carlin know Rory said he'd only get 15 goals like you know things like that little things it'll be censor him sure censor everybody he's got a place of it well we've had it with what we do with a couple of players not me because I'm far too nice but Ped who's had a little bit of tennis with you you've had a couple of things where he's give Everton players ratings and they weren't happy with it and things like that and I'm thinking that happened when we played by the way it's okay but I'm thinking if you're playing in the Premier League and Ped gives me three out of ten as if I care you know what I mean it's like it's weird what was it like I think some players did care I didn't I never cared I think Gary cared a lot what Mark he got in the paper yeah everyone was saying Stuart Matheson in the evening news what's he giving me fucking hell a four again again so guys are going confronting for a fucking four I was alright I did a long throw with a podcast I won't say who the player is but someone basically we listen to your podcast and you've been talking bad about me for a couple of years so I don't want to speak to you and I was like fair enough but why does my opinion really matter let's be honest if it comes from you guys ex-pros played the game obviously don't get me wrong we have got a voice and we're sat here we don't like people talking bad about us no I get that it's human nature but at the same time as long as you're not derogatory or you know you cross that line if you're given an opinion you had a bad game and I said you had a bad game come on let's every pub in the country though is going to have somebody chatting like something about it's just this happens to be you know aired to everyone's ears if you're a football I don't know why they listen to it, to be fair.

38:13No. I'd just crack on with it. And people are touchy. Players are touchy. Yeah, true. But are there certain things that we could say, and because we literally have never played the game at that level, that we are wrong, be it a technical level, a manager level, a coaching level, where if you did sit down with them, you could say, well, if we did do that, X, Y, and Z would happen, and you don't know that because you've never actually been in the situation. Because you must have insight that people that never got a pitch there. You know what? Listen, some of the lads here and other people that we have, I keep in touch privately with some of you don't I not keep in touch but like I don't look at it what I mean by that is say for instance I was doing a game on a team that I don't watch you know not someone who's on the TV constantly like say the big six teams if you like so I had one bit of information of you know sometimes I might just send someone a little DM or a little thing now so my thing about fans not playing the game so they don't know the game I am not I don't really think like that because sometimes I'll hear ex-professionals speak about the game and they don't have a lot of detail in what they're talking about really and I know that probably frustrates you at times you just probably put a lot more into it and then get that thrown at you oh you've never played the game when actually you know I know there's a thing isn't there and sometimes I think it's a little bit harsh when I say people like you I'm talking about people who haven't played the game or you've got your own podcasts and you know but you're thinking about your club 24-7 and sometimes you'll see something oh he's a diney so now that pisses me off a little bit because I think okay but he has played the game and he's been in the game I think sometimes we can dismiss someone who played you know in the 70s or 80s oh he's not up to date but he's been a professional player he's you know so I sometimes think I don't like that thrown at them but I also don't like that thrown at you it's like oh they haven't played the game because sometimes if I listen to a podcast or read something or you know the lads with you you know the Anfield rap or something it's proper detail so I do listen to it and try and take as much from it as I can and then use it Yeah, it's useful because, like you say, the fans are...

40:11They know everything about their club. And you say you're watching these podcasts and you listen to interviews and you think, yeah, these are the ones sometimes, as you say, especially with the smaller clubs where you don't really know much about them, you get a feeling of what the fan thoughts are about. I think that's always good to know. What's you like in a pundit? What do you think's a good pundit? How do you think it works? What's you sort of... I think I don't know outspoken is the right word, but I appreciate when someone just speaks their mind and does it with passion. Because even if somebody is quite mundane and held back, someone on social media is still going to go, oh, I don't believe it.

40:48So you may as well get someone that's happy to just throw themselves out there. Because again, it's all about sparking. Social media goes too far, as Jamie, you pointed out. But when it's a fair discussion and somebody has sort of sparked a fire under a really interesting debate, I think that's what, you know, a pundit should do. As long as they're honest. I think honesty is the most important. I like it when you're sort of telling me something I don't know. You know what I mean? Like, you know, because I think what was asked there is a good question about, you know, is the stuff we say that you would know that we wouldn't?

41:15And one thing I always think is a thing on that. You know, when we're saying, ah, he's not putting an effort in there or whatever. But I think, well, you haven't ran in the Premier League for 90 minutes. So how do you know how goosed he is after 85 minutes? You don't, but you do, and you do, because you've done it. And so, you know, stuff like that. And things like, I really like that you were talking, Jamie, me I think fairly recently on something I think it was about Poster Coglio about like the influence of the manager versus the influence of the actual players on the pitch and them making their own decisions and them being able to talk to each other and take some responsibility that was boss because I can't know that because I haven't been in them changes ever or the boss talked to me like that I think what you said there that statement always stuck me when I first started doing it I can't even remember who said it but he said tell them something they don't know and I still don't think I've done it yet but I always remember him saying that tell them something that they don't know I think the level of detail as well I think like when you and Gary have done it and others have done it as well the analysis has gone to a different way Andy Grey Starter and Gary and obviously Jamie the analysis is brilliant and it's it's easy to understand as well I think you're showing on the screens and stuff I'm sure as a viewer as well you appreciate it more because you see the effort these guys go to it must be what hours of research, I'm assuming, or prep that goes into it.

42:34And so, as a viewer, you appreciate that. You think this guy's gone to... What would that Monday night consist of? You're starting Monday, Monday or Sunday even a bit. Well, today, getting the guest goes on for weeks. So it's not like you're asking on a Friday. So we've just got someone confirmed today for next Monday. So that's like a rigmarole. And you're probably in the group chat, probably I would say... leads up to the weekend what are we thinking so you'd almost have a steer about what you might be doing because it's not it's not match of the day it's not do every game what are the big games what's at stake now what's at stake a bit this season is probably Champions League qualification relegation looks like it's almost there if Liverpool say win the next game and Arsenal drop points but you'd always still look at the title it's the title but that's the so you look at okay who's playing who So you'd have that in mind going into the weekend.

43:32I'd watch every game. You watch a full night of every game? No, no, the ones that are on TV. That'd be outrageous, that. BT game, and then the R5 game, match of the day, and then the Sunday stuff. And then you're starting to think, well, OK, what are we going to do? And then I might watch on Sunday night basically whatever I need to watch. I'll be asking for clips all through the weekend, get me that. And it's not just about, I can't explain, it's not always about, sometimes you've got to think of an idea or link something together or just be a bit creative a bit like has this happened before or has that happened can we get that you know you're just in your head just you know trying to rack your brain to try and do something a little bit different I think the hardest thing is the hour before the game isn't it I suppose once the game's started at our time there's chances there's goals you just talk about you talk about what happens after the game it's that hour before where you obviously you need things to link into the game that you all might happen now it doesn't always happen does it of course but I think that's where the planning has to come into I mean I love Monday Night Football that's the thing that like it almost feels like you're playing a game you know you've got this little buzz for a few days before you're thinking okay I want to do something that someone else hasn't done or I'd hate to be almost analysing someone else's analysis you understand what I mean I'd rather us be the first so we'll set an agenda or a narrative or something.

44:59Has that happened where you've had something and then someone online or someone's kind of beat you? Well, to be honest, when I first started, social media wasn't awash with, you know, everyone's an analyst now on social media. I mean, you just, you go on social media, you see the name of it, it'll just say thread and it'll just be all screenshots of like, so you do have that. I am a little bit of, I wouldn't say I go on social media checking who's done so, but I do follow a bit of big accounts use and I'm thinking, can I find something that no one's sort of cottoned on to yet or done. You prepare more now than you did as a player, you think?

45:32Yeah. Oh, yeah. Definitely, honestly, you're never prepared as a player. No, but Peter, that's it. You didn't have to because you knew what you were doing, you know what I mean? So you didn't have to prepare that much. What I was going to ask you then, Jamie, is why did you never go into culture and managing? Because I'm sure people have asked you this before, but what you do on the Monday night is what a coach or a manager would probably do the day after the games. It was just at the end. I was coaching Connor Cody and John Flanagan's group so they were both under 15, under 16. I just didn't...

46:11As players, you hate someone stopping a session and if you're a coach and you don't stop the session, you're not coaching. So the fellas make me say, you're going to need to get in now. I just didn't like it, didn't enjoy it. I also seen Julien Benitez at the end and they were my two big sort of you know influencers in the game 12 years of my Liverpool career was them two managers six years each and they were like when they first came in I was just like oh my god these are God you know the two of them and then at the end you're seeing them you're thinking oh that's just what management does to you and I'd never moved house you know I just didn't want to move the kids and stuff like that and I got offered Monday Night Football and it was like if I go into coach and I'm maybe go Liverpool's Academy or League One whatever it may be or I can go straight to like what I think is the best job on TV you know like Monday Night Football and you get your teeth into it so yeah it wasn't even a difficult decision really but I say I'm not sure punditry would be enough without Monday Night Football because it's that that analysis of like not just giving an opinion like really detail yeah watching trying to find things and find clips I get a buzz out of that yeah

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49:02How do you both stay sane, basically? Because, you know, we were talking about the media landscape there and, like, this clickbait culture that we've ended up with with a lot of journalism now. That must do your heads in, the fact that stuff you've said today on here will get written up as a piece. And then you must read it back and think, well, I didn't mean it like that. Or I didn't say it like that. That happens all the time. So how do you cope with that? Do you just completely switch off sometimes? I think you have to. Climb a hill. What do you do to keep your head right? Yeah, look, it's like you say, if someone had come from today, I would have thought three or four things that you'd say.

49:37I didn't realise I said that. Paul Scholes, I never prepared for a game. That's what I don't think. I didn't have to. it's just the same as being a player really to a pundit you've just got to ignore it really because like I said for the first season I started doing it that really annoyed me and funnily enough when I first signed for BT I was down to do 45 appearances a season or something and when I started reading all that I thought fucking no chance I cannot read that every single week it's going to be I cannot read Paul Scaldon alright I don't know I don't know I'm just going to shake I don't know I'm just going to geography look no honestly I just couldn't do it because of what I was reading you got calling Robbie Savage and Nubbid as well probably didn't help yeah it didn't help did you find that interesting because you mentioned earlier how you know you didn't care about the ratings you got as a player whereas when you moved into punditry maybe you were more aware of the criticism you were getting and it bothered you more is that fair?

50:45I wouldn't say it bothered me I just didn't like reading what I said all the time right okay I get it yeah for sure that's bothering you

50:54I try to think as well if I was a player with social media I don't think I'd like it yeah I don't know what you'd be like as much as we say you want to ignore it it's virtually impossible aren't it I probably without a doubt I'd probably get more stickers upon it than I did as a player I wasn't like a big name player who was in the news every week like say like it was Stevie Gerrard I wasn't like one of the stars of the team so I think I get a bit more now I the only thing that frustrates me is not so much that he said this or he said that is when they say something you haven't said it's like no no I didn't say that and what happens is someone just sees one clip so we put clips out so we talk about clickbait we're all part of it we'll put clips out today about you saying this and we're trying to get people to click on the link and watch the show I get a message every two minutes on Instagram I'm out to store you

51:47I want my tent today There was something the other day and on TalkSport someone saying what I'd said about Trent and I'd said completely the opposite so I've got no problem with you saying what I've said because I'll back it up and go well yeah I think that because of it but when someone says you said something that you didn't say and you're like and because it's a clickbait and then it becomes a headline and sometimes before you know something's snowballed into your opinion on something. You're saying, I didn't... I couldn't even say that. Would you ever reach out to them? Call them out on it.

52:19Would you ever reach out and be like, look, I didn't... That's my problem. Well, you do. I need to stop doing that.

52:26The amount of times in the last couple of weeks where I've got on Twitter and just went, stop it. Because it never ends well. It never ends well when you go, what, what, what, boom, boom, boom, boom. And you feel good for that fit and then you're thinking, oh, what have I started now? And it's just so much... And he reacts to that and it's just like you get angry at the point you get angry about it do it and then think fuck well you know what I've done now I've took Twitter off my phone I just left it on my iPad so I haven't always got my iPads I just thought I just can't be you know what I mean the problem is you've got loads of followers then people might not have hardly any but the minute you answer they get loads of followers and then therefore there you go what's he saying and then everyone I interviewed your followers didn't I I never respond to you they're on the message I responded his mate so he's had me on Toffee TV I've done a few interviews for him or been on his podcast then his mate starts battering me head on the something I said on comedy because it was about Richarlison I mean the fella who just dives no matter what shirt he's got on for any team and I went back on him and he's paired I'm thinking look I've done you a favour going on Toffee TV I went back and I said it was a famous time when you called into Adrian Durham oh yeah I mean I did what sorry what was that I phoned Talk Sport up today when I was up there.

53:41Oh, you're a gender room? Yeah. You threaten them? You threaten them? Yeah. Playfully threaten them. You said you'd meet out with them. I told them something I was going to meet. Come down to them. The funny thing with that was he was on with Mickey Quinn. So I know Quinny. So this was in a pre-season. I don't know if you used it. So you train in the morning. Go on and then we train about five o 'clock or something. So I get in the car for the second thing. So I'm going, get in the car, talk sport on. It's a lively debate. So I'm in the car for two minutes. but they've never said who it's about.

54:12Well, fucking hell, this is me. So every, say, five or ten minutes, they go to the break and they give you the number, don't they? Give us a call. Oh, seven, but it goes so fast. So I'm like, I've got, like, the first three numbers. So I'm on my way to Melwood and it's going to take me about 20 minutes. So I've got, like... So by the time I get to Melwood Car Park, I've got the full number. So I've just gone bang. He phoned me back and it was Mickey Quinn. He went, is it really you? I went, yeah. I said, get me on now. he said just don't swear right so that phone call where I'm arguing I'm walking around the dressing room what was it saying about he's saying I bottled it because I said I don't want to play for England no more oh was it after that tournament yeah right yeah and I just went oh don't worry so he said he'd done his job didn't he but he actually came down he'd come down to Liverpool he'd done a radio show actually after that so it was alright in the end became your biggest fan after that yeah he went back to Liverpool then the next minute it was Liverpool are amazing now you've changed your tune but I don't mind players I always think about managers mate I always think if I was a manager and I got interviewed and I wasn't in a great mood after a game or something like some fella was trying to put me on the spot I wouldn't have it I got right back at him I think that was the artist Arteta walking away the other week that's because yeah Pat Davidson pulled him back that's good though right it's personality in the game I'd much rather have that I don't want everyone giving stock answers all the time It's really boring.

55:39I might try if you were a manager to tell someone to F off and then storm away. Did you see the Gatuso thing? Oh, that was class. Brilliant, wasn't it? That's got to happen over it at some point, hasn't it? I was like the pundit. Come on. He's all bad. He can't try to show his hand, does he? I was going mad at the pundit. I was like, you know, it's a goalkeeper's union, pundit union. I was like, stand up to him. Have a go back. Any more questions on punditry? I'll tell you go. Go on. I was going to say, on that topic of like when you get a manager that's perhaps a bit frosty or a bit foisty and maybe some players the same as well.

56:14Obviously, it's probably not that often that you do direct one-on-one interviews with these people because it often goes to the other interviewers. But how do you kind of balance liking that in a player or a manager, liking that bit of bite to them, but also knowing you've got to do your job, you want to get a good answer out of them. So how do you balance getting what you want but also thinking, do you know what, I write that? It depends when you're going. Sometimes they don't always do it. It depends what mood they're in. You'll find before a game, it's probably harder again, as I said, because you talk about players.

56:54Because I've done United, that's so much. You talk about players out of form, let's talk about Rasmus Hoyland or something, what are you going to do to get back into form? I always find that quite difficult. and afterwards it's normally a bit easier because they'll only come if they win the game so it's miles easy if they don't win the game you've no chance of getting them have you? But I loved it when you talk about managers we had one with Roy on Monday Night Football so we interview managers now down the line and sometimes they're there waiting and you haven't quite finished your answer so someone will let you know he's listening or he's whatever and Roy said I think Liverpool switched off and you can see Klopp in the background and he's heard it yeah yeah yeah did I just hear Roy Keane inside that Liverpool I mean it's great TV isn't it yeah brilliant it was good Simon you got a last question yeah it's really dumb I thought let's lower the tone of the show but there was a hilarious clip the other day where they cut to Stuart Pearce I think it was Talk Sport and he was eating a cookie and he went oh I'm sorry I can't talk right now so what's your favourite snack when you're doing punditry what do you like what do I always have a cup of tea nice just before I start because I've always got this even today I'm coughing or I it's a bit like a player getting your first pass off I always think your first answer and if the back of my throat feels a bit croaky or I need like a cup of tea or something like that it is I had the first answers I had didn't I the milky bar buttons not milky bar caramel oh caramac caramac yeah I like them at the other side caramel buttons you mean don't you caramel I think they're called caramac I think caramilk how's this show ended up here sorry that's my question I think that's for a brand caramel they're not caramel I never thought I'd be arguing with Paul Scott about chocolates here we are any more questions favourite meme has come from what's something you've said oh punditry yeah I always get asked to do if you stop it there yeah that's it

58:52I love Gary Neville's at the New Camp when Torres got his voice the orgasm oh the theory on you when Rodgers was sacked your face the leg was it him touching your leg or was it that Rogers had gone what was I more happy with he is cool cheery to be fair right that is the end of another episode of the Fan Debate brought to you by Skybet

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