Scholes vs Martinez, Rice Ballon d’Or Talk & Rory’s Rosenior Rage | The Overlap Fan Debate

0:00Do you realise the impact of your words when you say them? Or is it just me and my mate having a chat? We have to say what we think. And sometimes people aren't going to like that. If you don't win the league, will that be the biggest bottle job in Premier League history? I think it would be, yeah. The only team that will stop us is us. I feel there's a real disrespect towards the manager on social media from Liverpool supporters. You've just lost your manager. You've just let your captain go for nothing. Where's the money? You've said he is Brent and the most undeserving managerial appointment in the Premier League history.

0:29The only reason he's in the job is because he's a guest man. You know the dunce, the local dunce in the pub? You are that person's definition. This is probably going to have to get edited. I didn't realise how many Argentinian friends I had till this week. You're Paul Scholes, you know what I mean? So when you say something, it does matter. You just come on and just come out with a mad shout.

0:52Hello and welcome back to the Fan Debate brought to you by Skybet. Paul Scholes is back again with the supporters, the normal names and faces there. So, Scolzi, we're going to start off with a nice, gentle one, get you warmed up. Big result for Salford Tuesday night. So you've got Man City now. Yes, big one. Happy with that after what happened this time? No, look at Luke smiling. It's a good test for us. I think we're better than we were. City aren't as good as they were. I think we're probably best. I hope. So, look, it's great to have it. It's going to make us a few quid, of course it is, and that'll probably help us in January.

1:26So, looking forward to it. And did your other podcast that you don't make a few quid? No comments. No comments. I didn't realise how many Argentinian friends I had till this week. I've had some shit off them, Jesus. But hey, look, that was my opinion. Do you know what? What we said probably wasn't great when you look back. Are you backtracking? No, I'm not apologising for it, no. I'm just saying, well, the thing we was trying to say was, look, we thought... It was a joke, wasn't it? Yeah, look, we thought, and it still is. Physically, it's a mismatch. the way we described it probably wasn't great and we probably shouldn't have done that but still it was yeah okay fair enough he's had one good game as well he hasn't though I think it's a bit harsh how many I think he's better than you make out look I hope to God he proved me wrong but look at the week before against Brian Danny Welbeck he was and Daniel Welbeck.

2:30Look at the week before that, Burnley. He gave the goal away against Burnley. From my perspective, I feel like his only, his major issue has been injuries though. When he's available, more often than not he's pretty good. And I can see why he would feel a bit emasculated by it. You know, like, they're like saying, oh yeah, he's going to get picked up in the team. You don't remember his little man syndrome as well. It's like, come on, bless him. Don't do this. I don't even know what it means. Adam, I can see why I was offended about it. And that's what I said. We probably worded it not in a great way look I hope he proves me wrong he's had a great game against City he was brilliant but we've got to see that now for a season again on Sunday it's a big one for him so now that we're talking about the scores part of the show later on I'm supposed to come to you about City United Pundits getting a bit of stick now come on we're talking about it right now are we where are we with it I don't know the way I looked at it was like I saw it as two mates just having a laugh and a jolt but I think what they forget is that they're icons of the club legends of the club and what they say does reverberate around the world, especially if they're having a little dig or a little laugh about one of the players.

3:34And I can see why Lissandro Martinez, although I didn't get offended by it on his behalf, I can see why he would feel a certain type of way about it. But one of the things that I was thinking of it is, during your time at United, you did have the luxury of being very protected. Sir Alex Ferguson was almost like a mob boss. You couldn't, you know, he protected his players. He made sure that the media were kept in place. And this is a very, very different Manchester United, right? You could probably compare it more to England during your time where there's toxicity and the media attention around the club is always a little bit crazy.

4:06Do you realise the impact of your words when you say them? Or is it just me and my mate having a chat? I haven't really as much, probably since them comments. There has been a lot of backlash towards it and toxicity is the word that you use and a lot of people have probably labelled that me and Nicky for the last few days. look, it's not something we like doing. We obviously want to see the team winning. We want to see the team successful every single week. And you go back to when we played and when Jamie played, you did get a bit of criticism. I think it's probably more so now than it ever has been that people are speaking their mind.

4:48And you've got to deal with it. You've got to realise you're probably one of the biggest clubs, well, definitely one of the biggest clubs in the world, and you are going to take a little bit of criticism at times, especially when it's not going as well as it could do. I think when you say, and it probably applies to myself as well a little bit with Liverpool, people say to you, but when you say it, it goes somewhere or people are aware of it. But we're in the media, so what does that mean? We shouldn't have a job, we love talking about football, we love doing this show, or you love being on Sky, or you're on BT.

5:24it's like you can't think you've got your own life to live it's not just I'm Mr Manchester United or I'm Mr Liverpool for the rest of my life I love doing it you get paid as well you've still got you know you've got things it's not just like your life finishes at 35 at your football club and you can never not so much criticise you don't know where your life's going to take it and what you're going to do and what you're going to get involved in I don't think you can always I think there's definitely something in my mind sometimes when I think and probably with Liverpool I would probably say now and again I would probably hold back a little bit on something that I probably wouldn't do with another club because I think I don't really care about United or Chelsea or City and sometimes I do think oh no I don't want to say that Liverpool have got a big game coming or maybe I'm doing a newspaper column I think no I'll leave that one you know so there probably is a slight bias there I do think in my own club sometimes a little bit but I don't think you can always be on every show you're on thinking oh I can't say that I can't say that I can't do that No, because fans aren't stupid as well.

6:26Other people from other clubs aren't stupid. Like you say, it's a job to us. We're getting paid to do it. So we have to say what we think. And sometimes people aren't going to like that, especially when it's not going great. I can imagine for Carroll last year it was brilliant. Liverpool winning the league looking like a great team. Again, it's gone a little bit funny now. So it's not something... I don't think it's something we really enjoy doing. But it's, as Jamie said, it's our life now. That's what we have to do. Do you think it's a representation of modern-day football? So Adam said there, you know, Manchester United players were quite well protected when you were playing, and that could well be true.

7:00But footballers generally weren't. If you think about some of the stick that John Terry would hear when he was playing at Anfield, for example, if you think about what David Beckham went through after the World Cup, for example, players have always got it in the neck from fans and from pundits. It's always been a thing. Wasn't the headline of a national newspaper something along the lines of, like, ten brave lions, one stupid boy? This is when newspapers were selling 5 million copies. Footballers have always been incredibly, incredibly well-paid. It's an incredibly desirable industry, but one of the pitfalls of the industry is that you will face criticism.

7:35Now, in your time, you didn't necessarily feel obliged to... Like, Lissandro Martinez was criticised, whether you think that's fair or unfair. That's just part of being a modern-day footballer, isn't it? Yeah, it is, and it was part of when we played as well. I'm sure we'll all remember bits that people say you do, but I don't think we ever came back and had a go at these people. I think the most important thing for players, they shouldn't care really what we think about them, what we say about them. They shouldn't be bothered. The only people they should be bothered about is the teammates, the staff, the fans.

8:09I think that's because your poor skulls, you know what I mean? So when you say something, it does matter what you say. I've never really seen it like that, Adam. Until this week, the amount of, stuff that has been this week from what happened. But if he does 99 good things about a player, they're not even going to get clipped up. No one's going to care. And then the one negative thing will just get slammed everywhere. The good things you say, it's never in the paper. It's never spoken about. There is a 99 good thing to say about us, to be fair. If you go back 20 years anyway, social media didn't exist in the way it does now.

8:41So players have that ability to go onto their phones and immediately get frustrated about something. You'd have had to speak to a journalist and go to a newspaper, They'd probably get club sign-off 20 years ago. It's a very different world now. Can you guys remember any criticism you might have had from one of your club legends when you was playing, say, a match of the day or something like that, that maybe you took and was like, oh, wow. To be honest, I wasn't a big enough player. I don't want to answer it. I wasn't a big enough player to get criticised by... You know, people always look at the best players in the team.

9:12Is he going to win us this or is he playing at the same level? I probably got my criticism less from the press because they're not bothered about a full-back playing for Liverpool, with the greatest respect to myself. But Liverpool supporters are probably critical of me as a player, and I probably wasn't good enough for Liverpool if they want to win the league or they want to win the Champions League. So people always have this idea about me, how team of Carraghers are, the fans love me. That's just absolute nonsense. I had to be at my absolute best, or at my peak, if you like, from about 26, 27 to 30, 31 under Rafa, where it almost felt like I was accepted by Liverpool fans then to say, okay, win the Champions League, we're doing quite well.

9:50And then as soon as that finished, I was too old and I wasn't good enough. You know what I mean? So I had mine more from my own supporters rather than... There wasn't really pundit. I mean, there was Alan Hanson and Andy Gray. And I don't think it was the... Match of the day, weren't there? Yeah, basically. I don't know what you found as a player. Did you sort of get that scrutiny or was it more with England? I wasn't really an England player either, really. No, I don't really remember that much. I think we had MUTV that started as well Roy Keane just bollocking you on there yeah Roy Keane but even before that some of the older ones and when it's on your own channels it must be even more difficult they can't say them lads who go on MUTV now can't really say what they think I do remember Joel Royal once I remember waking up on a Saturday morning playing Newcastle away and Joel Royal was having a right go at me because he had Kieran Dyer at Ipswich Kieran Dyer signed for Newcastle and he said he should have played for England instead of me Joe Royal Joe Royal yeah Oldham fan Oldham manager Everton Oh they said Newcastle No sorry We were playing Newcastle Oh sorry So he had Kieran Dyer At Ipswich for years And saying how good he was We were playing Newcastle away And Newcastle Obviously signed Kieran Dyer So he was saying He should have Had my England players And I use that as fuel I'm not going to go back At Joe Royal I say what the fuck Are you saying I use it to motivate myself To try and You know what I mean Get the better Kieran Dyer Score that trick

11:16Right, we can definitely move on That's definitely the last word on that

11:26So Matt, got to start with you We were starting with Gareth a lot last season For obvious reasons Liverpool were at the top But it's changed now Arsenal are the top team in the country right now You must be very confident now Absolutely, Bazin When you look at the current situation on paper, top of the Premier League, top of the Champions League, won seven out of seven in the CL, one foot, I'd say, in the final of the Carabao Cup and a nice, easy home game against Wigan in the FA Cup. That wouldn't be easy. Heard they're easy to get at, Carragher. It's a period in time now where it's interesting because I think the actual games that are being played, people aren't watching Arsenal, and people aren't blown away by the performances.

12:12But when you look at it on paper, like I've just spelt it out, the game has probably never been harder to win, never been harder to score. We're coming up against teams that are changing the whole style of play when they play against us to sit back and try and grind out a draw like we saw against Forest. And we're sort of just going through every single game knowing for a fact that we probably aren't going to lose. I looked at the Forest game. we played four games away in four different competitions in the space of ten days. First top flight team to ever do that. We won three, drew one, scored ten and conceded four.

12:50And everyone was only focused on the draw, on the dropped points. What's really frustrating me is actually the reaction from Arsenal fans. I think everyone else has sort of firmed, chinned the fact that Arsenal are probably going to win the league this season. but the issue is coming from the Arsenal fans. Like what we were saying about before, the power of social media and the power of us talking about is this Arsenal's year, putting that pressure on ourselves, being a bit too emotional, it does transcend onto the pitch, especially with the way that Arteta has connected this fan base. And what is really frustrating is in the stadium you're hearing a bit of...

13:27It's really arrogant, I think, from Arsenal fans, the way that we are behaving when we have absolutely no right to be criticising what this team is doing. I was thinking about this I watched you in Inter Milan I didn't think you'd win that game just when I saw the team so no Declan Rice no Gabriel I think Odegaard was on the bench and you're going to the best team in Italy and you won easily and I know you just want to win the league Arsenal fans just want to win the league but when you see yourselves where you are in the Champions League won 7 out of 7 you've beat Bayern Munich this year probably used to probably the best teams in Europe in the first half of the season would you almost look and think we can win more than just the league here there's a lot on the table here we could have a really really special season 100 % and I don't want to look too far ahead because realistically I'll take the league and I'll walk off I couldn't care less about anything else anything else would be a bonus but we have two teams I was on the train up here with Ben before and we went through our second team Ben White Ben White Mascara Hincapié Louis Skelly Marino Eze Norgard Madueke Jesus Martinelli that is a second team we have the squads to compete on all four fronts zero excuse not to and the first time that I came here I said the only thing that's stopping us is us and people took the piss out of it but it's a fact the only team that will stop us is us we are the best team on the planet whoa Rory has something to say about that So if you're saying the only team that can stop you winning the league or winning the Champions League is yourself, if you don't win the league, will that be the biggest bottle job in Premier League history?

15:14I think it would be, yeah. I think it would be because I think that we're head and shoulders above the rest. I don't think that our competitors are on top form. You look around, City, Pep might be leaving. There's a little bit of panic, I think, at City. Liverpool are a little bit of a mess, uncertainty with the manager. Chelsea, I mean, Rory wants the manager out already. Tottenham are barely even worth a mention. United. We're back. Potentially back. I might have missed someone. West Ham. West Ham. We're at a point in time now where I think Arteta has epitomised the phrase trust the process.

15:49Because we've been through years of, you know, always the bridesmaid, never the bride. And now we're here. We've got the best squad, I think, in Europe. I don't think that's even debatable. all the players are friends on and off the pitch Arteta's hand-picked all of these players and I think we're set up to dominate for the next four or five years it's just if we can get used to doing that I think more will come Scolzi, what are your thoughts on this sort of Arsenal team? You've seen a little bit of back and forth with Theo Walcott and Wazze on the side of the pitch Wayne said they battered this Arsenal team in 2018 which I think was actually Man Utd's probably best team Is that fair?

16:30That sort of 2008 That was the best team Yeah Probably difference of opinion I think Gary Loves that team The 2008 team Because of the quality And the speed More than anything I always went back To the 1990 team I loved them Before centre forwards I just loved Was it Cole, York Sharingham, Solskjaer The two of them Won't do it After an hour We messed up the treble Against Portsmouth That year In 08 Do you think If they managed To get over the line Because it was Portsmouth-Cardiff final do you think it'd have been better do you think do you think you're looking at 0-8 team as better then City did the double on United that year so we can't say it that's why hang on a minute I thought this was Arsenal's section oh you're done now you should think it's going to be easy yeah yeah because I always think 0-8 team is better I always feel like it's just a touch better Benjani that might be age remember that game Benjani yeah yeah

17:27what was the question I think a little my thoughts on Arsenal is I think we don't recognise the team as being a great team until they've actually won something and that's right so you know when Wayne said that we battered that team I don't think anyone would batter this Arsenal team just because they're so strong defensively I don't think you can batter them I do think that team in 2008 is better than the Arsenal team of course but I do think because you haven't won anything you've got to almost get over that line and then even though it's the same players and the same manager everyone will just have a different sort of thought process around them you can't say it's the greatest team on the planet until they've won trophies one thing Arsenal still haven't done they haven't won a big game like a beat a Liverpool or a Manchester City they've still not done it and I think I said earlier in the season I can't see them winning the league unless they start beating those type of teams but looking at how many points Liverpool's your City's looking at how many points they're dropping I don't think they're going to have to.

18:27I don't think it is all about the big games. I know we haven't been that great in them but we've been very consistent. Do you know this season it isn't because they're dropping so many points at other places. In other years gone by City would be closer Liverpool would be closer and that's the time when you have to win them games. I think a lot of the difference now with Arsenal this season is I think a lot of teams are respecting us that when they come to us they know that if they open up we will punish them. You saw Man City for the first time probably in Pep Guardiola's career. He sat back, 10 men behind the ball.

19:01It shows you where Arsenal were at. People, I think Arsenal were a very feared team to play. And when, like you said about Inter Milan... You are right what you're saying, but you're saying this as if this is a new... This has been going on for like 50 years. I mean, anyone who goes to... 10 years, that. Any top team who were the best team in the league or going for the league, the team... I think Stevie Gerrard said something yesterday and I think he had a point about slots. Slot keeps going on about low blocks, as if it's a new thing. you know what's happened when we weren't as good as this Liverpool team but it still happened to us at Anfield so you're right and you know every team finds it tough but it's not it's not a new thing that's what I was thinking about when he said it we did that for 15 years I don't tell you you've got to break these teams down and likewise we did it when we went to Liverpool we'd sit behind the ball low block even the game the derby game last week still sat at the edge of our box City had 70 % possession it's common sense really isn't it common sense yeah well you've got to do whatever it is whatever it takes to win the game but once you get to the other end you've got to be ruthless and that's what United were on Saturday can I sorry can I just quickly oh you can I'm very glad that you're back because I wanted to ask if Tonali over Rice still erm I still don't think there's a lot in it Tonali's tailed off a little bit aren't I erm well Rice has gone up a level I think maybe since that comment I think he might have taken that bit personally he actually thinks Rice is the best yeah but hang on I think I think Declan Rice, if Arsenal win the league, which I think they will, I think Declan Rice is going to get player of the year, PFA player of the year.

20:28He would be my vote. But you said he was going to win Ballon d 'Or. I said he could, if things fall into place, if we win the Premier League. What needs to fall into place if Declan Rice win the Ballon d 'Or? I think Arsenal need to win the Premier League, which I think we will. And I think England probably need to win the World Cup. And the Champions League, and the World Cup. Why? Why all of them? Or Haaland scored 52 goals. Enough for Haaland. He won the treble and Messi still got it in America, mate. Declan Rice isn't even the best. Because he won the World Cup. I'm saying if England win the World Cup, with Declan Rice being a pivotal figure.

20:56Has Declan Rice been that special this year? Are you joking? Scolsy. Ask your question. Has Declan Rice been special this year? He's been the best player in the league so far this season. But has he been special? He's been revolution. Does that say more about the standard of the league? Declan Rice is an amazing player, but... Best player in the league? Yeah, I'm just struggling to see the best player in the league this far. So who can I ask? Yeah, I'm trying to think who now, but I wouldn't have him. Without him, we wouldn't be top of the league. You must say your defence, though. You must say Gabriel.

21:30What about your second team as well? No, no, second team would get you. You're talking them off, though. No, I think that's disrespectful. What's disrespectful? I think that there might be a personal beef there. No, but you going, he's going to win the battle. I'm going, he's not the best player in the world. I really like him. I'm just struggling to see him as the best player in the league at this point. Harry Kane would be ahead of him in the queue for the Ballon d 'Or, wouldn't he? Mbappe, Harlan. If England were to win a World Cup... I think Bayern would have to win the Champions League. You can measure Kane's success off of goals, but you can't measure...

22:01Also, cumulatively, Harry Kane has been one of the best players in the world for about a decade. And if England were to win a World Cup, I feel like Kane would go head and shoulders above Declan Rice in the queue for the Ballon d 'Or. I think Kane's got to win the Champions League. Six favourite Rice at the moment. I had a look a few weeks ago. If England win the World Cup, I think it would be Kane, not Rice. Well, Kane has to be he has to score the goals to help England win the World Cup. And he's got to win the Champions League. I think the defenders have probably been a bigger influence than Declan Rice.

22:26I think that you're massively discrediting Declan Rice's importance to Arsenal. I like him, I'm just saying I don't think he's the best player in the Premier League this year. Who is? I don't know. We're halfway through the season, aren't we? I just think the defenders have had a bigger influence. His lack of Timber. I think Timber's been unbelievable. I think he's been brilliant. I think I said a few months ago before he got injured I actually thought not the best player but I actually thought Gabriel was the most influential player in the Premier League what he was doing with set pieces and Arsenal's defensive record but something when we're talking about the Arsenal team I picked it on Monday Night Football like halfway through the season team of the season so far the interesting thing was you'd always get people with different opinions you know what social media is like and that's fair enough I didn't put an Arsenal player in the front four so it was Harlan Bruno Fernandes I think Semenyo I think Morgan Rodgers but there was no debate about how an Arsenal player should be and I just thought it was interesting when you think of a team who was so far above everybody else in the league that we wouldn't probably say anyone in the front four would probably be in the team of the season so far I just don't think that would ever be the case for a team who was six points clear you'd always have one or two wouldn't you of the attacking players in there does that show you the strength of the team is midfield and at the back yeah I mean the saying goes forwards win your games defence win your titles and that has sort of been epitomised.

23:49Maybe not for you, but... I think we've epitomised that statement, really. Our defence is world-class and our midfield as well, especially with Declan Rice in there doing... Zubamendi's been good as well. I couldn't say Zubamendi's been better than Rice or Rice has been better than Zubamendi. Zubamendi, I think, has taken Rice's level up a notch. I think that he compliments him really nicely. But Rice is that core player for Arsenal. I think we'd be nothing. Not nothing without him. Why did you make of Rice's comments that were kind of caught on camera at the full-time whistle at Forest? Because that suggested to me like his...

24:25When you say something like that, yeah, it's human reaction, but when you say something like that, it's like when you've been dealing with the same old rubbish for a while. It's not something you say when something just happens once, is it? Well, we don't know what it was in the context. He might have been talking about himself. He might have been talking about the team. We've all played at some sort of level. Definitely Yockeres. We've all played at some sort of level and he's just said shit every fucking time. He's a human being. He's talking about himself, the best player in the world.

24:56Ballon d 'Or with a man.

25:05Right, we've had enough for Arsenal. Luke, Man City only won two games in all comps in Gian. Is that right? when you'll know more than me yeah 2-7 yeah is that what it is 3 draws 2 losses 1 or 2 losses you've said that City's main talking point is this is that and I quote you are absolutely dreadful have you said that on your socials nah I mean the last week I'll very much say that 2 horrific performances I don't think anyone shined away from that started the month like you said away at Sunderland we had pretty much a full team out for that 0-0 I don't think anyone was looking at it going that's a bad result Sunderland hadn't lost obviously at home all year I think Rodri came back in that game he was looking good Chelsea game the big talking point for that obviously we concede late on but we lose both centre backs they've been so important this season Guardiola Diaz both out we concede the goal obviously with both of them off the pitch next game against Brighton draw then I think we put 10 past Exeter that's the real quiz which is obviously is good and then if you ask me a week ago how we do and we then go and beat Newcastle away which is a very tough place to go in a semi-final holders of the League Cup the last week we didn't turn up against United we didn't turn up in Norway at all and that's two very very poor performances so have you had your money back yet I'll be getting 26 quid back yet that's one and a half pints in Norway you know you know when listen I don't think listen I don't know if it's something that Manchester United do when you play you know you have a bad result everyone wants to get the money back on a bad trip but what I'm saying do you think that's fair or I don't think it's anything to do with the money or actually they give you some great nights haven't they I think people are probably reading into it a bit too much in terms of the play four of the captains at City I think it's Harlan Diaz Rodri and Bernardo Silva Bernardo Silva that's it yeah they've put in like 9k you know it's a good gesture for the fans I don't actually I don't actually think it's about the fans that have spent five, six hundred quid to go to Norway.

27:13It's not about them getting 26 pound back. It's about them making a statement to say we know these have been two shocking performances. I really, people read into should people get this back. We've not really got anything back as such. We've got 25, 26 quid back for the game. I think it's more of a statement to say, you know, the players come out all the time and say that performance was poor, that was bad. I think it's a statement from the players to say, look, we know this was a terrible two performances. We know that that is unacceptable and it's now for me about the reaction from that like we know it was a bad two games we've had you know a couple bad weeks this season but when you actually write it down on paper you know we've had quite a lot of injuries we've got Semenyo and Gehi coming in in January that can obviously make an impact seven points have Arsenal you know that's quite a gap League Cup potentially getting the final of that Champions League we're still touch and go sort of touch and go to get in the Champions League top eight but we're going to go through and in the FA Cup obviously we've got Sol for the next round so when you think about it on paper we're still in four competitions we're not unbelievably far behind Arsenal but it's been a very, very bad week As a City fan what's the fan base as almost thought?

28:22You're almost resigned to the fact that you think Pep Guardiola won't be manager here next season I get that feeling that I think most people in football do but is it just thinking this is our last season? I see it so many times and I've heard it my whole life Pep's only done three years at Barca he's going to go Pep's done now he's won this when he wins a Champions League he'll go to be honest I'm at the point now where I've heard it that many times he's almost over provided we've seen 10 seasons of Pep effectively so he's got another year after this on his contract maybe just sign that to kind of shut everyone up so it wasn't the whole season dragging on with people saying he's going to leave I don't think anyone knows I don't think even Pep knows to be honest so I never really read into it too much I think the big thing was Begerstein leaving last year wasn't it that was his main man wasn't it and will he want to leave when they're playing like this?

29:09Well, I think that's the reason last season he signed. There was a lot of talk last season he was going to go. He wins the four league titles in a row, wins a treble the season before he gets to his ninth season, his contract's up. People were saying he's going to go now and then we hit that really bad run of form last season and he signs an extension, I think it was November international break, right in the heat of just that shocking run. So, yeah, he signed contracts before. I don't know. I don't think anyone knows. I don't think even Pep knows. Let's say that did leak into the dressing room.

29:38obviously we don't know if it's true or not that Pep was going to leave do you remember in 01 when Fergie kind of announced his retirement how did that impact your dressing room because we won the league but I remember in Europe it was a bit just kind of just a little bit of a bad football wasn't it and we went out against Bayern Munich but we won the league yeah yeah Bayern Munich weren't bad to hold that yeah but like what was the dressing room like I don't think it impacts us does it look we thought it was going to be leaving of course I remember him coming down to the dressing room and telling us but it wasn't a massive surprise he'd been there so long anyway and he was probably coming to a certain age where you probably expect it but I don't think I don't remember it affecting anything we did on the pitch for the rest of that season It did with Klopp at Liverpool I think Yeah I was thinking that then Did it?

30:25Did it? I never said Klopp Liverpool fell a bit short of the league title I think it was towards the end It was nothing to do with Klopp the team wasn't good No one expected Liverpool to do that this season. I think you were favourites at one point, and then he announced that he was leaving. They were favourites for the league in November. Liverpool were favourites for the league in November. You just come on and just come out with fucking mad shouts. He announced it in January, didn't he? Yeah, but what I'm saying is Liverpool weren't favourites for the league that season. Liverpool finished.

30:57Arsenal and City that season. I think Arsenal... I think City won the league, but I think Arsenal and City were always seen as the two teams, and Liverpool... That was Liverpool getting back on track, wasn't it? a little bit when he brought the midfielders in and all that. of the league when he announced that he was leaving? Well he would have been there or there but they weren't favourites. Fair enough. Okay let's move on. Man United. What were your feelings around you know Carrick coming in the result the performance what were your feelings? I think Amorim ultimately got sacked because he went against the board I think he could have been sacked on a number of occasions for football results but I don't think it was results which got him sacked.

31:37I think it was him going after Wilcox and all that lot. Seeing that end, I'm not that heartbroken. I probably would have given him a little bit more time in his first full season, but I'm not that heartbroken. I didn't really see it improving under Ruben Amirim. It's nice to see Michael Carrick come in. Obviously, he had that initial stint of three games earlier on and then has carried on now. I am getting a little bit scared that we all see this clamour to kind of go just give Michael Carrick the job again which would be a little bit worried about but I do think he should still be able to audition and maybe interview for the job but if someone like Luis Enrique or someone comes available and you can get them I think Manchester United have to be in the market for that kind of elite manager but the performance against Manchester City was just so refreshing to see so many weeks, months, seasons now at Old Trafford it's kind of felt like yes we're behind the manager and we want them to do well but is it really happening?

32:34We're trying to give support but it's not really there and I think just seeing the team perform like that and come out with that kind of attitude and the intent I think was huge and it was a return to you know, I think, I can't remember who said it but I think they said I can't explain what Manchester United is but when you see it on the pitch you kind of know what it is. I think Gary said I know what it looks like and that's what it looks like. And I thought that was spot on like just seeing the way we were performing I thought it was really good and it's no stretch. It could have been six or seven.

33:04We had the ball in the net five times. Maguire hits the post. Casemiro has that chip. Ahmad hits the post. It could have been five, six, seven on the day. It was a great performance, but we have got the best team in the league on Sunday. Their defence is we're not going to be coming up against Max Alain and whoever was playing at the back. So it's going to be a much more difficult game. But what Carrick has shown in the four games, we've not lost a game. He's played against Emery, Tuchel, Arteta, Pep. So we've gone up against very good coaches. He's changed every single time, his tactics, his style.

33:38So I think that's quite good as well. He'll go into each match with a different game plan. And he looks like a good coach. Looks good in a suit as well, which I'm a sucker for. As soon as they put that United suit on, I'm like, oh my God, he might win the Champions League. He didn't do a lot that was unexpected, I don't think, did he? He got a little bit lucky. He had a couple of players back as well. he had the lads back from African Nations which made a Maguire Maguire back as well I thought Maguire was really good next to Martinez as well the trouble is you have now you almost build a rod for your own back like with Ole now if he does really well now to the end of the season United fans will demand it won't they yeah but I think that's why what will they need to do for United fans to demand him staying for the next year now look I don't think it should happen and will they learn the lesson from the Ole thing will they be a bit scarred from that they probably will but you know what it's like we get to second or third like because we're going oh we can't do what we did with Ali again Ali was our best coach since Fergie I know we didn't win any trophies but second and third we had some of the best football I think our away record in the Premier League I think we broke a record for that so like I do feel a little bit sorry for him in that sense but he has to be treated like his own man he is his own man he's his own coach I think he's a modern day coach as well which is I think what does that mean?

34:54in terms of I think he's I think tactically I think he's more modern I think with Ole Gunnar Solskjaer he left a lot of it to Kira McKenna I'm not trying to pull you up I'm not saying as if I know but what I'm saying sometimes I hear fans and I see this with Slot on social media and I hear people talk about it and they say oh the team's not well coached how the fucking hell do you know what does that mean what I'm saying is you don't know what he does on the training when I hear social supporters say that he's a modern day one or this team's not how badly are we coached how do you know I think the comparison I'm making between him and Ole is I think with Ole he was a bit more he was a bit more hands off with training he left a lot of things to Kieran McKenna but he's supposed to be a great coach isn't he so what's the problem with that sorry what was the question he's supposed to be a great coach isn't he Kieran McKenna so what's the problem with Oli Lane I didn't say there's a problem with that I just feel like Michael Carrick's a little bit different with his presence on the training pitch and all those kind of things and I think he takes a little bit more of an active hands on role in terms of addressing players one on one and all those kind of things obviously Jonathan Woodgate and what's the fella from England the new guru Steve Holland I think Steve Holland obviously had more experience but yeah I like the signs of Michael Carrick but we have to be a little bit careful but if he does well it shouldn't be binary though get Champions League you get the job because we could get Champions League because Chelsea and Liverpool it shouldn't be binary for that but you know when you were speaking there Paul you said something along the lines of I don't think you should get it what I don't understand with that mentality is I don't know how you know yet I don't understand how we can say whatever happens Carrick shouldn't be given the job if he does incredibly well football should be a meritocracy That's what I'm trying to say At what point do you think The scars are there If the alternative So whatever Carrick does If the alternative is say Luis Enrique Then I think fine you kind of go with Enrique Because of the track record But if the alternative is Irreola Glasner Then I think Michael Carrick should be I don't think that will be the alternative Will it be Luis Enrique It'll be Thomas Tuchel It might be Eddie Howe Let's say for instance Luis Enrique If you can't get them.

36:55Does it almost characterise on your next level of managers who you're looking at? He has to be, yeah. If you talk about Gleiser and them people. It feels unjust on him to say well, because we gave an interim manager the job previously, we couldn't possibly do that again. It's like, wait, what? It's got nothing to do with it. If they performed like they did against City another 15 times between the end of the season, you wouldn't have a choice. You'd have to give him the job. I mean, that's what it is. It's important to see players improving. the team actually performing as a team. If we're just getting over the line, if we just beat City 1-0 thanks for a penalty, I don't think we feel the same way we feel now about it.

37:31So I think it's important to see that he's doing everything in terms of developing players tactically. How did he perform against the big six? How did he perform against the teams a little bit lower down the table? All those kind of things have to come into consideration. It can't just be, get Champions League, you've got the job. I think the lad himself will be thinking as well. I'm in not just for these yeah he's got a tree he's almost I'm in this job somebody's got to come and take it off man with Ole as well there wasn't really any in that first kind of half of the season he came in and I think he got the PSG result a few other results finished pretty high up the table there's not really any pressure on him United are out of both cups they've got the league games left it's not like anyone's like right above him you need to do this he knows if it doesn't go that well he's just going to leave at the end of the season respectfully so that's why he might ride his luck maybe not ride his luck but like do well he's probably put that pressure on himself to say if I perform well here I could be the manager of Man United it doesn't matter about the pressure you put on there's no media dynamic there's no like the club as well the club know that if he does averagely he's going to part ways you also have to think of Michael as well he might still have ambitions of managing another top club so if he does not very well now that could go against him again it's an audition it's like what there's no pressure for an audition but there's no what I'm saying is there's no Champions League no Europa League no Cups it's just 15 league games the bar's spinning it so low but there's still a major upside though as I said if he performs like that for another 12 or 13 games hypothetically then the upside is huge because it's not just results based it's performances that City game I think was the best team performance from a Premier League team this season so far it's our best performance in 13 years I think it's the best that any team has played United's best performance 90-minute performance in 13 years.

39:20We've had good games. I've seen Oli do that against Man City. We've had good games, but a lot with Oli was we were sitting back sometimes, holding on a little bit sometimes. That game, we could have scored seven or eight goals. It was incredible. And I hate to use XG, but it was Pep's biggest XG defeat ever. Fair enough.

39:43Right, we've got a cue. I don't know how the cards have worked here, but there's a community question. Is this a part we call Settle Up? Let's go for it. We must be getting sponsored by someone called Settle Up for this little part of it. But our community questions come in. And it's Charlie from Bury. We all know Charlie, don't we, from Bury. Right, Adam and Scolzi as well. Does Bruno Fernandes make it into Man United's all-time Premier League XI? I say yes. My mate Tom says no. what do you think? No. I don't mind people making an argument for him. He's a third string Man United team of all time does he?

40:23What are we talking about? Charlie from Bury? And Tom. Are you comparing him with a number of times you think? Yeah I think Bruno Fernandes could have survived in a Manchester United team under Sir Alex but there's no way he's in United's Premier League. Okay I would play devil's advocate Ian and when I get asked about these things about Liverpool players like someone say like Luis Suarez right probably ability wise is probably as good as any player to ever play for Liverpool but if I was picking my all time Liverpool 11 I'd never put him because I always feel you've got to win something big it's not just about like he was an amazing player I think that's probably what's holding Bruno Fernandes back in terms of he hasn't won the league or the European Cup but if you just like to add his numbers his numbers are probably more or greater or certainly on the same level as other great players and he's playing in a lesser team.

41:17I'm not saying they put him in. He's been remarkable. He's been absolutely phenomenal for Manchester United. He gives his all every single game. I think what goes under the radar with him as well is his ability on the ball. I know sometimes he wastes the ball and he makes frustrating decisions on it. But some of the flicks and tricks, one of the passes he played the other day to Mbumo, like Noel Batliff, just first time, just pings it out of his feet. I think Bruno Fernandes is an incredible player, could play for Manchester United in any era. but like you said when you're at Manchester United you get judged on the leagues and the Champions Leagues but say you cleaned out say you're first 11 Manchester United Premier League all time first 11 pretend you can't have any of those right any of those so whatever you think it is clean all them out Bruno Fernandes isn't in the next one is he no he might be yeah he's not let's say you say the first string is Beckham Keane Scholes Giggs yeah yeah the second you could easily get a Carrick Bruno I know you've got Paul Ince who's massive Brian Robbins You're classing him as a central midfield player or a number 10.

42:15In a three, central midfielder. He's a better number 10. He's been playing central midfield in a two for the last... Well, I think in a 10, you're comparing him to. There's Cantona, Dwight York. He was a little bit like Teddy Sheringham. Yeah. I don't see how he's a midfielder. If you go for the archetypal midfielders, I feel like there's definitely four better. And then if you want to do the number 10, the Sheringham role, I feel like he doesn't get in there either. He's ahead of Teddy. Not a better player than Sheringham. He's mad. Of course he's not. Teddy was unbelievable Different I think Fernandes gets underrated A little bit Because of his temperament And like his personality I think a lot of teams Are killed to have a player like that I think Fernandes right Is he not really winning Yeah yeah That does make it Look at the numbers He's like top of chances Created every His numbers will be unbelievable But is he sounding out more Because the team around him Isn't as great But he's still doing it He's still doing it If you put him in a bad team Also I think numbers Are inflated in this era as well I think Wayne Rooney Would get bigger numbers In this era I think like So like you know using the numbers thing it's like yeah but you can Fernandes backs it up with the eye test as well but you can watch him it's like you can see his quality and I think you know any team would pluck him out and go yeah we'd have him 100 % he's a standout player for them I think he could play for anyone yeah I agree you've had a lot to say already and we haven't even got to Chelsea so welcome back mate and since you were last with us Mureska's had his P45 you call that very early on didn't you yeah and you've also had some very strong comments about to Rosinha like he is Brent and the most undeserving managerial appointment in the Premier League history wow it's not incorrect is it it might be harsh but it's not incorrect he is the it is the most undeserving appointment that has ever been awarded to any manager in Premier League history nobody less deserving has ever come close to a job the size of Chelsea it's a baffling appointment it's not personal I don't know him I wish him well I hope it goes well and I hope that this is completely wrong what I'm about to say But I think it's an appalling appointment.

44:13And I think it's actually an admission that Chelsea never want to compete for major silverware ever again. The point of Chelsea is quite clearly not to win leagues, not to win Premier League, not to win FA Cups. The point now is to appoint a manager that is effectively a stooge for the ownership. He is a company man who will tow the party line. The only reason he's in the job is because he's a yes man. And Chelsea are now an enterprise that isn't really about football anymore. That's what this appointment represents. So where are you having a go at the manager of Resinia? But, I mean, is it real?

44:44The fans have more gone on the ownership. Of course. Yeah, of course. Resinia is just the public face of this. The reason why Resinia will get it in the neck and the reason why we'll discuss him is because he's the public face of Bluco. He's the public face of the ownership model at Chelsea. It's very difficult for us to boo Egg Barley. It's very difficult for us to have a detailed conversation about when Stanley and Stewart, who the sporting directors put in the strings. But Liam Resinia is the public face of that. He's obviously in the job, not because of his brilliance. We were talking about Carrick.

45:14I said if it's a meritocracy, he deserves a job. Rossini is there. Why? Why has he got the job? Because he will be a yes man for the ownership. We heard Enzo Maresco say some terrifying things about what's going on at Chelsea. The way that the ownership want the club run. The way that the ownership are interfering in the running of the first team. Any manager that you have any respect for, any manager that you would think could be in line for the Chelsea job, wouldn't work in those parameters. they wouldn't do it what do you feel about okay that's your reaction when he comes in I get all that but the games have gone okay result wise I know it's only sort of four games or so but what you're feeling watching the team in those games and also the feeling of watching him in the press conference he's very confident he speaks a lot you're kidding well come on very confident I mean he is quite confident I mean yeah okay then there's misguided confidence isn't there there's idiotic confidence you don't think he comes across well I'm not saying Do you know what he comes across to me then?

46:09He comes across to me as like, I'm a bit like, fucking hell. No, what I'm saying is in terms of like, he lacks confidence in best confidence. What's all the legos? I almost think he's a little bit overconfident for where he's been in his coaching journey. I'm a bit like, this fella, he speaks a little bit like he's got all the answers. I was thinking, is he like that? Because I don't know him that well. Or is it almost that he's got to put a little bit of a front on to almost go into that dressing room with these Chelsea players because I've only coached a Holland Derby in Strasbourg. So I've almost got to put this big sort of front on the top.

46:41If you ask me to be a manager, I would come out. If you ask me to be a football manager, if I got the job, you ask me to do it, I would do a great impression of a really good football manager. That's what he's doing. He's doing an impression of a good football manager. What do you want him to do? I think that he's quite clearly a really thick person's idea of what a clever person is. You know, manage what you're doing. You're putting two words together in your career. It's man and age. You're ageing man. It's like, what are you talking about, you moron? Like, you are clearly a really, like, a dunce.

47:09You know the dunce, the local dunce in the pub? You are that person's definition of a clever person. This is probably going to have to get edited. No, no, no. This is gone. You are that person's definition of a clever person. You swallowed a for two. It's sad, though, don't you think? Because for years and years and years, we moan about young English managers not being given a chance. We did, because all these foreigners we've probably never heard of that come in and do all right. Paul, I love the idea of English managers being given an opportunity. I don't think that the England manager should be German, and I've got a lot of stick for saying that.

47:44I think if our own FA aren't going to back young English managers, who are? The England manager should be English. I agree. I support the trail of thought, but I think Carrick makes sense. I think that there are lots of English managers who do deserve an opportunity. but he's definitely being overly promoted you can't go on when you're actually thinking Chelsea as a football club and the managers they've had he's almost missed the step that he should have got to before he went to Chelsea Mourinho was talking we've seen a Mourinho quote when he was talking about Allegri going to AC Milan he's like that makes sense to me what's happening now just doesn't make sense to me and it was clearly about Chelsea just to play devil's advocate though because I agree with you you know I do but are the owners of Chelsea Are they just bringing in a guy that maybe they have a relationship with, they've seen up close, they know that might be a good up-and-coming coach and it's already someone they've got, they don't have to make an outside hire.

48:44They're giving him a promotion within. Is that... Yeah, that's all happened. It's all happened exactly as you said it, but it hasn't happened for his football. But could it be based off merit? Look, I can't pretend to you that I know much about what's going on at Lons at the moment, right? But they spent half of what Strasbourg sent and they sit top of the league. He's guided Strasbourg to seventh in the league, spending more money than anyone else. This isn't a managerial appointment. He's got the job because the ownership wants to input a very particular model into Chelsea. He must have impressed him in some way, though, mustn't he?

49:14No, I genuinely don't think so. I think it's a yes-man. Enzo Marescu was plucked off the bench at Leicester in the Championship and he was brought in as a yes-man and even he couldn't work in the parameters that were set by this ownership. so they've had to go for someone even less deserving of the job because if you give it to someone like that, they will just be so grateful to be earning the money, to be in that position, that they will toe the party line. Why do you think they only won't turn it down, can they? Because we've heard that there was a briefing, wasn't there, in the same week when we played Arsenal and Brentford, that we were prioritising the game against Brentford.

49:46That's clearly that you know nothing about football, you know nothing about Chelsea. If you see a semi-final against Arsenal with Wembley at stake as less of a priority than a league game against Brentford, you're clearly not in it for the right reasons. You earn more money where you finish in the league than you do winning the league. I said about the appointment, not so much Carrick, because I think we probably feel that's an interim appointment, but I mentioned Carrick with Regina in a newspaper column last week, and what I hope it's not and the game doesn't become is where sport and directors become almost the most important people or think they are at a football club, and they think it's just about not even a manager because this title's coming out now, head coach.

50:25It's going that way. And what we lose is these big figures of managers, these big beasts who will take on an ownership, who will, like a Jose. You know he's going to cause trouble, but in some ways he's with Ferguson, standing up to the media or getting involved and things. And we just have these yes men just, and I'm a bit like, I don't want that in the game. I don't want that where we lose these big figures of managers where we're all watching on a Friday thinking, what's he going to say? Because, Jamie, you're never going to have a situation. What are you going to say after the game? You're never going to have a situation where you will be able to have the kind of manager that you're referring to, the manager that builds a club in his image.

50:59Yes. You're never, ever going to have that when you have an ownership that don't want the best for the club. Like, Chelsea, it's absolutely ridiculous what's going on, the destruction of the fan culture at Chelsea at the moment. Like, genuinely, absolutely ridiculous. The pricing out of fans, making it so difficult for people to get tickets, making sure that certain fans can't go. It's atrocious what's happening. And nobody's really talking about it. But a co-owner of Chelsea owns a company called Vivid Seats. You can't get tickets now as a member or a season together. They make it really difficult.

51:28But you can get tickets via this third-party organisation that is owned by our ownership. It's bonkers. And do you know the thing that really hit the nail on the head? There's a co-owner of Blue Co, a guy called Jose Feliciano, and he is therefore a co-owner of Chelsea. There is a quote that he says, You know when you hear me sort of ranting about it and you go, oh, this bloke, I don't know what he's on about. That's fair enough. Just look up the quote. And he basically says that what we can build is an image and a profitable business irrespective of the goings-on on the pitch. It's literally what the geezer says.

52:03So it's all very well to go, right, this Rory's a book. Fine. The co-owner of Chelsea are telling you that it isn't about Chelsea Football Club. It isn't about the team. We're not even called that anymore, according to them. We're called CFC LDN. And I'm not even joking. That's happening, right? That's happening. They're trying to draw us away. There's something really damaging going on. And to now take it all the way back, Liam Rossini is the public face of this because any manager that you're talking about, the strong former managers with prestige and foothold in the game, they won't go near this much.

52:37We are losing the best managers when you think about it. If you think of three or four years ago, we had the very best there, didn't we? And like you're saying, your point, Jamie, we could end up with 20 Rizinhos head coaches do you remember Guardiola and Conte came in the same year didn't they think about that like Benitez and Mourinho Benitez and Mourinho came about three weeks ago Ancelotti so we had the best I was saying you want you want Luis Enrique don't you you want Xavi Alonso I know he's lost his job at Liverpool by the way but you want these sort of big sort of figures with the greatest respect have we said you'd almost have wanted Chelsea to have and it's not an English coach thing by the way it's just and you said before I wanted to make this point we're saying that we all want to see English coaches given a chance and I get that a little bit but what we've also got to say as well whenever they've had a chance English or British coaches they haven't done it so Man United had Moyes Liverpool went and got Roy Hodgson and Brendan Rodgers didn't do it I'm thinking of other you know other things Eddie you've got Eddie who could be the next one to go to a big one and that would be a big chance I think it should be the next thing Do you think that coaches might not want to come here because anything they do wrong, shows like this, everyone's going to absolutely bash them?

53:51There's no one turning down the Arsenal job because of you. I can absolutely assure you. Honestly. Jesus. Right, we're going to Spain. I found your point on the sporting directors interesting because around the whole Amarim thing, I was like, why isn't Jason Wilcox speaking? Why isn't he doing a press conference? If we're asking managers every Friday or Thursday ahead of a game and we're asking them all these questions and then we're going, but they don't have the power to make those decisions and stick their mugs in the press conference. That might start happening. That happens in Germany more, doesn't it?

54:23Because the German model was kind of more ahead of the Premier League in terms of the sporting directors having more control and those kind of things and they get held to account far more than the sporting directors were doing in the Premier League and maybe it will catch up as this model becomes more consistent but yeah, you're totally right. As much as I might think that my manager should be sacked or you think that Liam Rosina isn't right for the job. And those are totally valid points. But at the end of the day, they will be held accountable for what happens on the football pitch when it's not actually them making the decisions.

54:51And that's fundamentally wrong. I hear this a lot from fans. And before sporting directors became it, I think it was the owner. We want to hear from the owner. They want to hear from the owner. How would it work? Because I only when I look at certain football clubs and you've got an owner who's quite quotable I always think oh my god I wouldn't want him to run a mic club I don't want to hear from my owner if I'm being honest I know Sporting Director is slightly different because he's a little bit more hands on with the football but when would this happen? What would you want to know? We should have heard from Wilcox, wouldn't we?

55:22We heard too much from Amerim and not enough from Wilcox. OK, you've got a problem. So is this just when Amerim gets sacked or we turn the middle of the season? No, no, but if we're saying Wilcox is responsible And what do we want to ask him? if we're saying Wilcox is responsible for the style of play at the club and he passes that down to a manager transfers and all those kind of things and players that are in and out of the squad and then you've got a manager sitting there and they're asking him about transfers and players and he's going well I can't answer how the hell am I supposed to answer this because apparently I've got a great I could ask a really direct question to the Chelsea sporting directors or Sam Jewell or whoever was involved do you honestly think Jamie Gittings was worth buying for Chelsea.

56:03Do you want to see things? Do you think Chelsea were more... Do you think Jamie Gittings... So, OK, what did we do in the summer? We sold Matawake, and now you can rationalise Matawake's sale if you want, right? He's in the England squad, but we sold Matawake and Eze left Palace. So if you want to sell Matawake, I think you can justify it by going, right, Matawake goes, we bring in Eze, we elevate. What you don't do is sell Matawake, who's in the England team, and bring in Jamie Gittings, who's not in the Dortmund team. Can you rationalise that for me? OK, so what I'm saying is we're having a laugh at a joke and it's easy for us to say, we need to do this, we need to do that.

56:36Now, what I'm saying is, basically it sounds like we just want them to sit there and we just want to hammer them, don't we? We just want to cane them for all the decisions that they've made. That's what it sounds like. We also want to hear the direction and the thought and what is the thought process between appointing this manager. But what I'm saying is, are we talking like once a season? Are we talking twice a season? This is not something that's going to happen on a weekly basis. No. As a win. You're going to ask him about the manager's job What's he supposed to say? What's the manager supposed to say when he gets asked Are you making his striker signing?

57:06It should be more than ever But I think when people say Oh we need to hear from this It's basically us, we're angry with our club We're angry with them They need to be put in front of the media I think as well Because a lot of the times CEOs of football clubs Or sporting directors will come out with these At the end of a transfer window We had it with Spurs where Johan Lang Who's our sporting director sat down and did like a breakdown of the transfer window and why we did what we did. But those are like puff pieces put out by the club. They're not going to say anything negative in that, are they?

57:35They're holding themselves to account. They can come out and justify every single transfer because no one's holding them account. Whereas if they come out in the media, then people can probe a lot more. And I think that's what fans want to hear. We don't want to just see these like club-engineered pieces of media where... But that's what they're going to be. I know, and that's the problem. They're not going to open themselves up other than that. And even if they've made a mess of a transfer and you want to question them, You can't say it's being a mess. Because if the players in your building, you could also have a legitimate player there.

58:00It could be a really legitimate, polite question. You spent a billion quid. Do you think that you spent that billion quid well resulting in a situation where Mark Gew is leading the live Chelsea in a semi-final up against Saliba and Gabriel? Is that money well spent? Why is Mark Gew our centre-fielder? So how could he answer that? If that man is still in the building? He could rationalise it with, I don't know what the answer is, but he must have one. He must think that Mark Hugh is a prospect for the future. What I'm saying is that it's not realistic. I get where you're coming from, and I think if you could hear from them once or twice a season, but it's not realistic when you start naming players who are still in the building.

58:35What's he supposed to say to that? True. Yeah, but whenever results go wrong, whenever results go wrong, it's the manager's fault. But when results are going right, you hear from them all the time, and when they make a signing, it's like a great signing. They say what they've got to say, don't they? Exactly. It's part of the job. It's like Jim Radcliffe. What was it a few months ago? Ruben's got his three years. they've got to say what they probably don't believe I actually thought that to be fair what you're saying I thought when Jim sat down with not that I know him Jim when he sat down with Gary I thought okay that was a decent all I'm saying is I think that's something that could happen maybe once a season it could happen it's not somewhere every month I don't want to hear from me sporting director every month but I'm interested the thing about that everyone believed it but when you know about football and think about football you've got to say that he's got a three year contract he's here for the three years I think an occasional thing would be good you're losing that four or five games it's fucked up there's no chance like Michael Edwards we've never heard him speak at Liverpool and like some people want a statue of the fella but in some ways in some ways when it's going well we love that we love that we never hear oh we all think there's cloak and tag he's watching him play oh we don't need to hear from him but as soon as it goes on we want to hear him we don't want to hear from him we just want to slaughter him that's what we want to do we want to tell him what we think about him

59:57Ben, what do you think about Spurs? Oh, God. Yeah, absolutely terrible. Where do you want me to start? I mean, I think that, obviously, we won our last game against Borussia Dortmund in the Champions League, but that shouldn't distract from the league form and the fact that we genuinely could be spiralling into a relegation battle, in my opinion. Like, that might sound dramatic, and you look at the fact that, yeah, Spurs are 10 points clear of West Ham, but we just gave West Ham the biggest shot in the arm that they needed to kind of get out of that. And if you look at Spurs' run of fixtures in February, we've got Man City at home, who we tend to get a result against, to be fair, but you don't feel any confidence going into it.

1:00:30We've got Newcastle, we've got Arsenal, and we've got Man United away as well. And the Champions League, like people will look at Spurs and go, they're fourth in the Champions League table, they're 14th in the Premier League. What's the difference there? How does that make sense? But you look at the gap in quality between the teams in the Prem and the teams in the Champions League, and we've played two out of the bottom four teams at home in the Champions League, in the league phase, Slavia Prague and Villarreal and we played Dortmund earlier in the week as well who are kind of up there but the teams come on to us at home in the Champions League and Thomas Frank is almost an expert really in terms of what he showed at Brentford of being able to attack space when teams don't really show that kind of respect to you and we've been able to pick those teams off even if they are a lack of quality the way that they play kind of plays into our hands a bit more whereas in the Premier League we're getting worse we are regressing massively and when you speak about kind of managers and sporting directors etc.

1:01:16being held accountable Thomas Frank keeps saying in the media that we're showing signs of going in the right direction. He said something after the West Ham game that was like, this is like a massive ship and we're closer to turning it around than we are sinking. It's like, what evidence are you seeing to support that? No one in the media is then going, what are these signs? He kind of, it's all too vague, it's all generic, and we're getting worse. That West Ham performance, you said it when we were on the way here, we're the worst team you've played all season, which from a West Ham fan coming to a Tottenham fan, no disrespect, that's horrific to hear that.

1:01:45And we were awful. I think one of the things that stood out to me on Saturday, and we've kind of hinted at it earlier when you talk about, is it the players? Everyone says he's not coaching the players, right, and all that kind of stuff. Yves Bissouma had to come on in that second half, who's been frozen out all season, rightly so because of disciplinary issues, but because of the injuries that we've got and players away at AFCON and that with Papsar. Bissouma came back from AFCON, had to be on the bench against West Ham and looked like our best player. And he's not been coached by this manager all season, which I think says a lot.

1:02:14I really was in favour of the Thomas Frank appointment in the summer. because I thought he would bring the right blend of the pragmatism that we didn't necessarily have with Ange, but also his ability to improve attacking players. And I thought he would be able to scale up better at Tottenham than he has shown. But we are regressing, and I think his coaching style is too... It's very risk-free. And I think you've seen in some games, the shackles have kind of come off against Aston Villa in the second half in the FA Cup. We played a lot better, but that felt like it was almost driven by these players rather than the manager.

1:02:43It's such a risk-free environment. I will say I was really pleased that you won midweek just for the manager. Yeah. Because I actually, I'm feeling a little bit uncomfortable watching him in press conferences. I almost feel for him a little bit. I think he's swimming in the match. And I think he's obviously finding it tough. You see the results. And it doesn't feel like a perfect fit. I felt that early on as well. And just a little thing, I think when you manage almost a smaller club and then you go to sort of a top. I noticed something when you played Chelsea very early on. that a big thing about Brentford, and it's a great thing about Brentford, is no matter what the game, they almost do a lap of honour every game.

1:03:21You know, and when they win, it's like the place is rocking. And if they don't win, the fans are happy they're in the Premier League and everyone's clapping. They gave it a go. Pardon? They gave it a go. Yeah, yeah. And then I see them doing it against Chelsea. And it was like, no, just do a little clap and get down. Because the feeling of like, it's not a word, it's just like, it's just I almost think he'd probably been shocked a little bit by how much scrutiny and eyes I almost see he's in the press thinking oh my god he almost needs a break and I felt for him to be fair bearing in mind I think he should be sacked I think this result this run of results is untenable and you can question what happens next and all those kind of things could we get a better manager in now and that's a valid point but I felt for him on Monday morning because there was so much noise over the weekend that he was going to be sacked his job was in jeopardy it looked like it was going to happen and then And it's like the club kind of push him out as the human shield and say, no, he's going to take the Dortmund game.

1:04:16And if we go and win that, it's almost like, well, it's OK. But if we lose to Burnley at the weekend and West Ham win, then that's three more points towards a relegation back. What do you then go and do? It undermines your decision to then keep him in the job off the back of Champions League games where we've been a lot better, yes. But the quality and standard of opposition and the problems that we face in the league, we don't face in the Champions League. But that Chelsea game, I think that was the last time I was on here. I think that was when a lot of people started to sort of think, ah, like we might have got this wrong.

1:04:44Because I can take getting beaten by Chelsea. I've been beating Chelsea for a large part of my life. But it's the approach and it's the mentality that you approach that game with. And we, I mean, Chelsea weren't even great that day, but we were so timid. We were so reserved. It's a London derby at home, 5.30 kickoff. The place should be absolutely rocking. And all you're thinking about is how they can hurt you, not how we can go and hurt them. And to be fair, as much as I thought it was probably the right decision to move on from Ange, that was one thing he never struggled with was the mentality.

1:05:15He was so diehard in his principles of this is how we're going to approach this game. And we are, he understood, there's been a lot of chat about the United DNA and all that kind of stuff. But I think Tottenham managers should play brave, aggressive, front-footed attacking football. That's kind of how it's been for... You've got players missing, aren't you? But Ange had players missing as well. And I don't think he's got the same protection in the media as what Thomas Frank has. Because I think Thomas Frank is a nice guy and I like him. and I really hope he turns it around, but I think where he's done a bit of punditry work and all that kind of stuff, and he's a really nice character, and Anja was a bit more spiky and went for the media and those kind of things because he stood up for himself and he stood up for Tottenham.

1:05:47Anja probably, in terms of the key players that we had missing last season, probably had a worse injury crisis than what we've got now. We've got Kuliszewski and Maddison missing long-term injuries, which are huge, but we did bring in players in the summer to replace those, which, all right, Xavi Simmonds might not have hit the ground running fully yet and Kudus has shown bits and stuff, but they are players of a quality that other Spurs managers would have killed for in the transfer market with how poor we've been with our recruitment in the past? Did you think he might? I was just thinking, because I was looking at it thinking, obviously, if he got beat by West Ham, he could change the manager here.

1:06:17The fact that I always think when a manager's brought a player in, Conor Gallagher, he brought a member of staff in as well. That always tells me that you can't bring a member of staff in a new player and then the manager's not there like a week later. You know what I mean? So that tells me that they are thinking of probably letting this sort of, you know, continue and try and find a way out. It kind of shows you that it almost stinks of a bit of incompetence, really because the rumours were very strong that they were going to sack him after the West Ham game and whatever has happened has happened and he's still in the job but I mean Conor Gallagher's an interesting one right which I think does make me question Tottenham's transfer strategy again because I think Conor Gallagher's a good player that's proven at Premier League level is a leader he has a lot of the kind of intangible attributes that this Spurs squad needs right now a bit of a shot in the arm and someone that you just know is reliable and could be a seven out of ten every week but Spurs and I think you highlighted this on Monday Night Football around that Chelsea game actually.

1:07:03The one position that Spurs are absolutely crying out for is a progressive passer in midfield that can play through the lines and open up the centre of the pitch because Thomas Frank's game model in the Premier League is too predictable. We try to overload the flanks, get crosses in, but any centre-back or any defensive unit that's worth their salt in the Premier League will head those balls away for fun and we don't want to play through the middle. So a player like Xavi Simmonds might not see enough of it, might not get enough touches per game to actually make an impact. We've got so many midfielders and we've kind of bloated our squad by adding Conor Gallagher to the mix.

1:07:29And yeah, we've got injuries as well that was another factor as to why it had come in but you've not gone and addressed one of the key positions that is holding this team back from being more functional than it is right now we do not have someone that is comfortable like Zubemendi you say Zubemendi has taken Rice to another level because Rice is more of a box to box Zubemendi is that first phase kind of progressive pass to play through the lines I'd kill for a player like that Tottenham right now I've seen you sniffing around one of ours on social media I really wouldn't mind that whatsoever I'd have to change at Tottenham

1:08:04Gareth I'm going to come to you now Liverpool where are we I know we feel a lot better today after the really good resultant performance in Marseille but I must tell you where I stand a little bit on the manager I'm getting a little bit wound up looking at social I know social media is not something you should always sort of a barometer of what every fan thinks but I feel there's a real disrespect towards the manager on social media from Liverpool supporters considering what he's done. I know it's not been a great season but I'm almost a little bit like taken aback by some of it on there. What's your feeling around the manager?

1:08:42Yeah, there's some ridiculously toxic stuff and I kind of feel like there always is now. I think that's probably the case. I get that, Gareth. I mean, even from people who I'd normally see on there and think, you know, you don't have to always agree but you think, okay, pretty sensible. and I'm seeing that and I'm thinking I don't like it I think it's I think six months after winning a league title I think it's a little bit disrespectful some of the things as if he hasn't got a clue what he's doing Yeah I think maybe part of the problem is that we're unbeaten in 13 and great result last night against Marseille as you say but the six draws in there and we've ended up with the full collection of draws against promoted sides at Anfield and I've always said written, talked about for years that I always think like obviously what you do at home is massive because that's where the majority of your match going supporters see what you're doing and see what the players and see the performances and I think the performances at Anfield is what is getting to some people like you know the people I sit with stand with at Anfield are getting a bit like this is boring and this is like and in the pubs afterwards I hear similar conversations as well so and then I think I think there's a case for saying that the manager isn't really helping himself at times I keep hearing this thing about well he's Dutch and he's honest and that's his approach I just think if he could wind in some of the things he said you mentioned before about Gerard saying about the low block that's something I've been banging on about like I don't want to hear that like it may be true but when I hear him say over and over again the low block the low block we struggle against the low block yeah mate that's your thing to solve fix it yeah you're the manager sorry you're the head coach as we just talked about and you kind of think well why aren't we doing and then to take it back to that conversation before because I was going to bring that up why has Richard Hughes decided not to go for Semenyo was it just too rich it's that strategic thing where I do feel sorry for him a little bit because I kind of feel like he's been a bit like what some of the lads were saying there he's been hung out to dry in an extent and that he doesn't buy the players and I think he would undoubtedly like more he would undoubtedly like someone who's like Luis Diaz because he hasn't been replaced whatsoever there is no one in the squad with that pace who can do those numbers it was mentioned wasn't it it's a pathway for Rio Inghamawa well Inghamawa I think's got one of the lowest number of minutes in the first team squad and when he's come on he looks what he is a promising youngster but lacking a bit of any product that's where I've got a bit of sympathy for him the make up of the Liverpool squad and the numbers is not right there's actually no back up for Salah in Gakpo really and was sort of saying Salah's what 33 and Gakpo would probably look at him and probably say not quite good enough and there's no actual backup for them they make up with the squad the squad that he's got so any manager I think would find it tough and I know there'll be supporters here saying you spent 450 million and I get that but that shows for me it's more of a collective it's the people above them the players last season are not playing at the same level and we're actually at a stage now where I would say over the last probably four to six weeks the best players will up with the signings you know Kirkes Finn Pong Vertz Eketike so you're actually looking at the players who've been there and won the league last year they're not playing at the same level and has Arnie Stott had a great season no but I get a little bit frustrated when you're saying you're at the game you're going to the pub it almost feels a little bit of an entitlement to me a little bit like not we've probably had it so good with Klopp not in terms of winning everything but I would say Klopp's football was probably the most exciting football to watch anywhere in the world and he was great in basketball and he was amazing of course he was I thought that's been lost a bit look I haven't seen loads of Liverpool but I think Verts has made you a different team almost a possession based team which wasn't really Liverpool was it you think of the rock and roll and clock you're almost better out of possession you win the ball and bang the speed the power the strength now you're almost keeping the ball almost like a Barcelona way and that's where the ball and comes into it and that just isn't Liverpool there was a moment exactly like that that had everyone fuming against Burnley so I know the manager has said about XG against Burnley that we were unlucky that we have ones cleared off the line and all the rest of it true but there was a moment just before half time where Dominic Sabad's lies breaking and instead of playing Vertin he turns on the ball and comes back and the manager was applauding that and loads of people saw that and were like but why didn't you break under clock we would have broke and we're playing Burnley at home they're one of the poorest sides in the league go for a goal what are you turning back for what's that safety first I spoke to the manager I did an interview with the manager last night I don't know if you saw it yet so I asked him about it the low blocks and the sort of finding it tough and he when he answered about it I actually said Burnley was different to Leeds at home and Sunderland at home where it was very slow and very flat and what you said there, Scolese, I think I have a little bit of a slight problem now where it feels like there's too many similar players in midfield.

1:14:02When you have McAllister, Jones and Verte in the same team, sometimes it can look like a five-a-side game where it's almost like little touches here, little touches there. And I definitely think Liverpool need a powerful midfield player maybe with a physical presence who's a bit more dynamic. Maybe we've got that in Sir Boz, if you like. But rather than having those three in the team... It's like six passes a goal, isn't it, rather than a proper scoring goal? Yeah, but we must also acknowledge that the manager, one of the things that we liked about the manager last season was he took a Jurgen Klopp team and sprinkled his little bit of stardust on him.

1:14:37A little bit of control. Where it wasn't as mad and Liverpool conceding goals, but it almost feels like it's gone too far that way. Where are you at the manager in terms of, would you like to see a new manager next season? I'm not sure at the moment. I'm happy like you know there's bits that I'm not happy about there's bits that I'm seeing in games like I've just said that don't particularly entertain me and as I say I don't think he's helping himself publicly at times but I wouldn't be pulling the book What is it with that Gareth because he is very honest and to be fair maybe I'm saying this from a selfish point of view because he's great with us in terms of you can have an interview and he gives you he speaks tactically he doesn't speak in cliches he can have a bit of a laugh and a joke so I actually I think he's I like it and the reason I say you probably don't like what he's saying is because we're getting beat I remember the first time I thought oh this manager is going to say things in his press conferences when we played Man United last year I think it was the third game of the season we went to Old Trafford and we won and after the game he just said oh no we put him here because we know Casemiro had a problem there so we put Luis Diaz to the left and it was like wow you know he was almost killing the Manchester United manager in some ways but it wasn't deliberately he was just speaking about football that's the way he is so do you think it's just that's the way he is I'm going to get frustrated because we're getting beat yeah I think there is a bit of that but it's just little things like you know I think someone asked him about you know Calvin Ramsey the other day and like the way he spoke about him seemed to he basically said he was crap and it was like well just don't say that in public because and again I am doing the comparison with Klopp I can't help it and I think that's what a lot of people are doing he made it feel like a family almost where you know everyone's getting hugs everyone's got a potential opportunity kids can come in or whatever and help us win games.

1:16:22He seems to have very much like, they're my core, they're the people I rely on, people outside that core, I'm not really going to bring them in. And if you ask me a question about them, I might throw them under the bus a bit. And even, you know, we go to Arsenal and draw and I went to that game and everyone in that away end was happy with the Liverpool performance that day. And then what he said afterwards, he started comparing it to like draws with Fulham or something. And I was like, but it's not Fulham, is it? It's Arsenal. It's the team that's going to go and win the league. and we've gone there and matched them.

1:16:52We've hit the bar. We've done all right. We've played well. We looked like Liverpool. We were intense. We got stuck in. We competed with them. It's not Fulham. So don't come out and try and almost gaslight us that why did you have a problem with Fulham because this was the same? Well, we didn't because that's Fulham and this is Arsenal. How much will Alonso being out of work have to do with it? I mean, a lot of Reds are jumping on that and I think one of the arguments from some Reds about are you going to change the manager is well don't do a Man United and just blow this fella out the water and not have a plan after that and so when Alonso's sitting there out of work someone who's being brilliant for Liverpool I think a lot of fans look at that and say well now there is a fella there in waiting almost the thing about that is I wondered what you thought Jamie is what I've just said about a lot of reds moan stylistically about Liverpool but what about him because he doesn't play club football ahead of his that's my point I think what you've got to remember is what I've just said there Klopp's football didn't win as much as Pep's Pep won the league probably obviously did more than Klopp but I think most people at neutral would say they'd rather have watched Liverpool than Man City play football so that's what a generation because it wasn't a couple of years Klopp was the manager for eight years so you've got a generation now of supporters who probably there's less and less people who can remember Julien Benitez's football when I was playing even though we won some trophies there was loads of games like that so there's less of that and they've been brought up on this Klopp football and that's just what they expect and that's not going to happen forever.

1:18:22It's not. And the thing with Alonso is, and I go back to Pep, Pep is the greatest manager in the world, probably one of the greatest managers of all time when he finishes and what he's won. So he's such a massive influence for every young coach in the game and Slott said that before we played Man City this season. He's almost like a super fan to Pep because he's got that influence on him. Xavi's probably the same. So the type of football or you're going to get maybe from Alonso. It's probably a similar sort of thing to Slott. And the reason why I think we should give him the benefit of the doubt, and I do think it has to improve second half of the season, I'm not saying this should just carry on, but when Chelsea are appointing a manager now, or United are, and I said this on Sky do, oh Liverpool do, my first thought is, do I believe this guy can win me the league?

1:19:12Can I sort of believe this guy can go and win us the league? and that's why I mentioned Carrick and Rosina probably think I don't see them winning the league with their clubs now it's hard to go and get a manager who's going to win you the league we've got one, he won the league so I don't think we should be in this rush to say right, he's won the Premier League do you understand what I mean? there's no guarantee that next player you're going to get and he's been along those fights as Liverpool manager yeah and listen I would love Xavi Alonso to be the manager at Liverpool at some stage I'd hate to see him go somewhere else and I think maybe he could go to Manchester City if Pep went because there was no big real rivalry between Liverpool and City when he was a player he could probably get round it that way saying that but I just I just it just doesn't feel Liverpool-like the way we're speaking about our manager the way we we love managers more than anybody you know we've got banners about managers no one else has that and I'm just a little bit uneasy the way we're I just think we need to see something to be able to hope and dream about and I you know I watched that last night and thought that's about a performance that you know and you're seeing you're seeing us get changed out of players now you mentioned before the signings are starting to kick in bizarrely as well social media got mentioned before and Kirchges has jumped on hasn't he last night as well was that really him?

1:20:24yeah it was really him I didn't know it was like a bluff one yeah he's jumped on he only had about 17 ,000 followers so it's definitely him it was him what do you say? he come on and basically said he was motivated by the criticisms because someone had done a post saying you know sorry Kirchges forgive me I can see now why people will say and you're one of the best left-backs in the league last season. And he's replied to it and gone like, well, yeah, don't worry, the people who doubt me motivate me or something along those lines. Like you with Joe Royal. It's another one who's had one good game as well.

1:20:57He's had a few lately. The players are. I mean, I think Echeteke is the one who met the ground running from day one and we all love him and he's fantastic. But, you know, Adam and his mates were saying Vert would go back to Germany. He'll be there soon. and matey's coming good he's coming good what did you make of the again I've only read these quotes so I haven't heard them and got the proper context of them but I read Slott kind of said well Liverpool have only won two titles in 30 years and I've won one of them could you say that first off no can I I'm going to jump in here this really pissed me off yesterday he's done an interview with BT because they're the main right holders and listen as Sky do as the overlap do they put a headline on it and everyone was clicking it no one watch the full clip he's basically they're basically saying to him you're not doing well if you've got fans on your back almost like your job's at risk and he went he sort of smiled and went well I think almost saying I think that might be a little bit harsh he said I'm one of the we've only won the league twice in 30 years and I was one of the he's defending himself yeah no no no it was a joke it was completely take out that's why I asked what was the context of it it's what you're talking about as well a social media thing because people were going back to he said when he won the league it's two in five years you know to spin it in a positive way because he's the Liverpool manager and so people were comparing the two saying well he used it that way they're both true two in five years City won four in the middle of that so I don't know how he's got two in five years but do you know what I mean we won four in a row he's right two in six years he's right shit he's right again

1:22:42Right, Dan. Yeah. Where are we with Crystal Palace? I'm sort of sad what I'm watching here because it's been brilliant for a couple of years. It was probably going to end at some stage, but I don't want it to end like this with sort of Glasner on the board. Whose side are you on? Well, so it depends how you slice it. Obviously, I understand that Oliver Glasner would have preferred for the club to fully back him in the summer. You win an FA Cup, you go and spend money and everything's all rosy in the garden. we have to be realistic about the club that we are. You know, Ibirre Eze signed a new contract a couple of years ago.

1:23:16He's a Boyhood Arsenal fan. They offered us£67.5 million. That's£50 million of profit for a player that wouldn't have signed a new deal, whose valuation would have gone down. He said in a press conference after the Sunderland defeat, we had our heart ripped out by that. There's no way that Oliver Glasner came to Crystal Palace expecting us to be able to just hold on to the Mark Gays and the Ibirre Eze. it can't have been the case. So as much as I understand his desire to see us be supercharged and start behaving like a big club, we've got a 25 ,000-seater stadium, we have no corporate revenue, PSR is a thing.

1:23:50And it feels to me as though if you as a manager has held a hierarchy in October, I'm not going to be staying, then you don't have any leverage when it comes to January when it's about keeping your captain and turning down a£20 million offer. Because the new manager that comes in, whoever it might be, will say in the summer, I'm picking up the pieces, you've just lost your manager, you've just let your captain go for nothing, where's the money? And we can't go, oh, the previous guy said we should probably keep him because he's not here anymore. So I'm philosophical about it, but I'm also on the side of the club largely because I just don't see the point in smashing the opposite up on the way out.

1:24:28I'm with you a little bit, and it's not just now, we all see different managers, don't we? We watch the pressure comes, and he's been needling for a while, hasn't he? crypto comments and I almost think Parrish and I don't know if it's Mark Bright he's always sat next to him but it's almost like we know we've got a great manager and he's given us a little bit all the time but we've almost got to take it because he's doing so good and we'll just we'll take it on the chin even the fact that he's still in a job on the back of his comments after the last game I think it's a case of you know what we're going to have to take a little bit of shit for the next few months he's a great manager just keep him there and just almost just you know just keep it going I know I want Steve Parrish to do not suck to him Andrew Sowell I firmly believe he, having said in October that he's not going to be staying, he wanted us to finance his next job in many senses.

1:25:15He wants us to spend money that we've got now on players for him, and then it makes him look better. If we hadn't gone on a 10-game run without a win, he wouldn't be coming out in the press and saying this stuff. The last team we beat was Shelbourne. We're conceding goals left, right and centre from set pieces. He said a few weeks ago, that's my problem to fix. He's not fixed it. and against Sunderland he didn't bring a single sub on he said I turned around at the bench and there was no one worthy of bringing on so you've alienated the entire bench there that's his message to Steve Parrish if he's not going to fall on his sword and leave and you want the sack you've either got a forfeit of money that you're due for the rest of the season and say I can't do this job without Mark Gay I'm off what's he done?

1:25:56gone back in on Tuesday and said sorry about that lads let the emotions get the better of me that's not what a manager does he's creating a story that we're all talking about Glasner. He's done a great job and he's being let down by the boards when really you're looking at the situation. And listen, it's bound to come. They haven't won for 10 games. They lose to a Macclesfield in the ethical. It doesn't look great for him, but he's quite cute and he knows exactly what he's doing in the press there in terms of putting certain things out. What do they call it in politics? A dead cat? So many managers are doing this now.

1:26:22No one heard that one? I don't think I've heard that one. Can anyone clarify that for me? That's a saying in politics when you're trying to divert the attention, you throw a dead cat on the floor. It's a dog, wasn't it? Was it a dead dog? I've heard a dead dog, I think. No one heard this, no? I'm sort of dead. I know what you mean. I can't remember the ego. I know, I know. We're not going any further. It's a dead donkey, innit? Someone Google a dead cat. It's a dead donkey. No, that's a TV show. What arse of bands have been screaming about yucca, hasn't it? Right, let's get to West Ham. Because they are a dead cat.

1:26:55I can't even hide it anymore. Go on, where are we at? Where are we at? Pause, Matt. Oh, okay. Love you, lad. Oh, has he just come when he wants? Pause your beard and make it stop. I've got the same train. What can you do? A bit of space. He's given up. West Ham, you beat Spurs. Come on. Is the dead cat still alive? Is there still breathing? We're back. Do you know what? I would like to say, come here and be super positive and say, oh, look, we beat Spurs and now we can kick on. It's a positive result. But I didn't necessarily see anything different than I've seen throughout the season. We've beat a crap team, right?

1:27:37We went 1-0 up and it was, I'm sorry. Talking about you, by the way. He's not wrong. Yeah, he's not wrong. But it was the same old story. We went 1-0 up and all of a sudden we've panicked, right? And gone super defensive and just let them have all the ball and come on to us, right? They eventually got their goal. And then it's 1-1 and we're doing the same thing. Fortunately, he subbed on Callum Wilson at the last minute, the player that he didn't want and said your third choice for these two new signings. I thought he was gone. I couldn't believe it. Yeah, he's trying to go. And he's come on and we've got the goal, right?

1:28:09But there's nothing in that performance that I look at and go, yeah, like Sunderland, we're going to go and beat Sunderland and we're going to go and win the next one. We're still five points off safety. So to me, Spurs, that's all well and good. It's not a test. Sunderland's the real test. Like, I'm sorry. No, you are right. Like I said, the worst team we've faced all season. We were dreadful. So as it stands, for me, I think we're still going down, you know, and that's a shocking crime to say that, that West Ham, in the grand scheme of things of what we were promised, are now about to be relegated.

1:28:42Do you regret calling for Moyes' head? The thing is with the Moyes thing, right, is it started then under Moyes. I'm not saying it's Moyes' fault, but it's this started under Moyes. We replaced Declan Rice, the best player in the world, as we've just heard, right? With Edson Alvarez, who's now on loan to Fenerbahce for£35 million. James Ward-Prowse for£30 million. JWP. Yeah, JWP for£30 million. So the recruitment has been consistently horrendous. Like, we saw these issues under Moyes. So you sell a big player like that and don't replace them. So in hindsight, maybe I should have been like, Well, it don't matter who the manager is because it was always going to be an issue.

1:29:26But it's what we've done since. You bring in Lopetegui, who, why? Who thought Lopetegui was the all-star? Yeah, and then he went to Spain. And then we got in Graham Potter like six months later or whatever it was. He come in and he was awful. And then like six, seven months later, you've got Nuno. And you bring in Nuno and don't give him his backroom staff and go, here's the academy coaches, have them. This is just... So whoever it is, it all comes from the top. I see Simon Jordan say this has been a successful ownership. Ignore him, he's an idiot. What is he talking about? He says that about the Chelsea owners as well.

1:30:04He's successful. We're about to hit our second relegation under them after moving to the stadium, driving away nearly 40 ,000 fans. Yeah, driving away nearly 40 ,000 seasons. Do you worry if you went down that the way the club is, you'll know probably more about it than me, financially behind the scenes. Do you think it'd be a big problem in terms of coming back? Yeah, I honestly do. You know, like the small sliver of hope I have is you think, if we go down, they might leave and we might get taken over. But in the grand scheme of things, as it stands, I think we are going to be there for a while.

1:30:37Because, you know, I know I go back to the stadium, but you look at it this way, we're in that championship. I remember the last time, everyone sees you as a scalp in there, right? You're the big team. Teams come to your ground, these championship teams, you're seeing the Premier League side, and they up their game. It's a cup final. But for us, it's not a fortress. So we're at a disadvantage at our own home ground in the championship. This is another reason why I think we're going down, but we're at a disadvantage down there. And we've run so poorly. How are we getting the players to get us up?

1:31:06They got us up last time because we happened to get Big Sam and convince him to come. And Kevin Nolan, we managed to convince him to drop down. I don't think we're in a situation where we're going to get big names to come and drop down and get us up. you know so I think it's looking bleak unless we can get a new owner and even then that's a dice roll you just actively hate your club now don't you a lot of West Ham fans actively hate West Ham loads of good West Ham fans have walked away already haven't they yeah like I said we've lost nearly 40 ,000 season ticket holders from Upton Park to now I'm one of them because the identity's gone the soul is gone you don't recognise it and this is supposed to be seen as a success because we've got one conference league that didn't even exist when we moved into the stadium.

1:31:51You know, I'll give up the conference league and move back to Upton Park and be that team that's happy with a mid-table and every now and then we'll have a good cup run. I'm happy. I didn't ask for this. Mid-table, you wish. Yeah, listen, I would love to be mid-table, but that's what I'm saying. I didn't ask for this, but he'd come on log and said, we're going to go get Champions League, we're going to win league titles, we're going to do this. Can you believe that? No, we didn't believe it, but the idea was, is that, okay, we're going to try to achieve these things. We're going to be in situations where, okay, we'll try to get into Champions League.

1:32:20We only had three seasons in Europe, again, because the Conference League was invented. Without the Conference League, we would have had one season in the Europa League, which I loved. But we've got to have some perspective. It's not been successful. It is a tragedy. It's a tragedy. You think about what West Ham are and what they're supposed to be and what they're supposed to represent. And the state of them now. It's such a warning sign to any team about moving stadiums. It's horrific. Yeah, I would have moved stadiums. I've got no love for West Ham. I mean, I'd love to... Listen, I don't know if I speak for everybody on the panel, but I do want to see West Ham get relegated.

1:32:52They just feel like there should be a club that's in the Premier League. I know Bernard... I'll do sympathise. That's it. Sorry for cutting us off there, because we've only gone for an hour and a half, this one. Thanks, Scorsi. So that's the end of another edition of the Fan Debate brought to you by Skybet.

1:33:27We'll be right back.