Steve McClaren on Man Utd ’99 Tactics, Managing England & More | The Overlap Breakdown

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2:20okay we begin steve welcome and thank you for coming on the overlap breakdown it's an absolute pleasure to have you on and yeah today we're going to speak about everything in your career what you've done the size of your cv some of the best stuff you've done and yeah we just had a little warm-up chat uh just to get started but i really wanted to ask you i was thinking about last night what the best way to open it open this up with was and i really wanted to say to you when When you start coaching, what did you want to gain from that? Why did you do it? It's a great question. I fell into it accidentally.

2:59I'd been doing my coaching badges while I was playing. What I was thinking about when I stopped playing was something down the business line. And I'd done my coaching but never expected to get an opportunity and all of a sudden I got injured. the manager at the time I think it was Brian Horton said look youth team, reserve team, we've got no coach at the moment, while you're injured do you want to coach the team? Yeah I'll do that I remember one Saturday, first Saturday we're playing Crystal Palace, 7 o 'clock I'm in a 16 seater van I've got a physio volunteer who's driving the van and I'm at the front.

3:46I've got 16 kids behind me. I've gone around the M25 to Crystal Palace. Punch you on the M25. Pull over. Kids go, good job the lad knew how to change a tyre. So he changed the tyre, got it back, got around Crystal Palace, got prepared for the game. First half, I remember it to this day. First staff 0-0. Poor game. And we had a left winger. Rapid, really quick. Chrissie Allen. And that was Oxford, obviously, Chrissie Allen. And he was rapid. But he kept trying to do little tricks. So I said, Chris, look, keep it simple, son. As soon as you get it, just knock it. No one's quicker than you. I said, and then cross it.

4:37That's all you've got to do. Oh, when the ball's on the other side and he crosses it, you be at the back post and score a goal that's your job ok so just after half time he gets the ball no dribble just knocks the ball down the line he was so quick left foot cross right winger far post goal 1-1 or 1-0 day equalised minute to go right winger cross the ball far post Chrissie Allen's there taps it in we win 2-1 and that was it that was the moment you got the click that was the moment you'll know it as a coach yourself all of a sudden you go this is it gosh I like that the one I like I just like the camaraderie of the team being in charge of that giving advice to somebody they're taking it on board and making them a better player and the thrill then of that going into winning was the ultimate.

5:46Yeah. Because as a player, every Saturday you win or lose. Or draw. Yeah. Elated, disappointed, whatever. So you've always got that up and down and coaching was the same. So it gave me the same kind of buzz. Yeah. And feeling. And what I've always been is a learner. So even I do all my badges, I do business courses. I wanted to learn about everything so I thought wow this is a new subject I can learn and the key for me was I could experiment so just down the road was Swindon Swindon town so if we played in the morning and Oxford were away couldn't see the game we used to hop in the car and go and watch Swindon so the Swindon manager the first time was Ozdiard Deales he'd gone from Spurs to Swindon and was player manager so he played and he played and I couldn't what format everybody played 4-4-2 yeah and I'd go down and watch Swindon that was the ideal he's playing 4-4-2 but it's a diamond in midfield yeah and I'm going wow what's this what is this yeah and he he played at the diamond he played at the base of it.

7:11So he was here. And he was magnificent. He had the ball all day. So it was 4-4-2. In those days, he was the free man. So he just ran the shot. And I went and studied that. And my youth team played it. So I experimented with that. Then the following year, he left. And Glenn Hoddle came in. and Glenn Oddle was player manager as well and Glenn Oddle played three at the back something else you'd never seen before two controllers ten and two strikers and two wingbacks like that and he he played sweeper yeah middle he played middle yeah now you can imagine him he couldn't defend no More on the ball.

8:05But in terms of, it was the first time I'd seen anybody play possession football, build up from the back, outnumbering midfield. He used to step forward. And he used to, these used to be inside, left, inside, right. And he used to play diagonals all day. And he was free as a bird. No one marked him. Yeah. No one fought to mark him. That's right. And, and so therefore there I went back to my youth team, right? We're doing this. A sweeper or a midfield player drop. and you know we'd play 4-4-2 but we'd try and get him to drop back in to make that three so for me it was I was just intrigued yeah the learning I was just intrigued and I tried that and I tried that and I took over I think for Oxford in between managers a couple of games and I played the diamond as well didn't quite work out as well as I thought but I couldn't implement it but my youth that's right yeah I couldn't play so you know I was just, it was just such an education.

9:06I had Morris mentoring me, you know. And Morris was, you know, wouldn't do that, Steve, you know. Yeah. You know, somebody took a corner and I'm shouting, play it short, play it short. And the guy plays it short. And Morris would always come by me and say, say, you know what, Steve? We will never know if he was going to play it short or not. and it was such a thing of wow you're right give the players a bit of freedom and could he see it so did he have that intelligence to see it and that's I used to be up and down that line shouting instructions all day and he used to calm me down and hey sit down yeah Joe you talk about stuff we did we did like over the Christmas period we looked back on the Jose Mourinho team in 04-05 and they played the Diamond and that was seen as revolutionary then because obviously people were still playing 4-4-2.

10:07You had Thor in there. Talked about Makalele playing on a different line. Couldn't get anywhere near him. And obviously you've just gone on to speak about improvisation and we were talking before like too much information. Do you think when you was at Oxford and Derby, the way you were talking about Oxford then in terms of having a management of the whole stuff, the apprenticeships, obviously the youth team, the reserves, the first team, Do you think that's why, obviously you've gone on to later work at a club like Manchester United, and when you've been told, just keep doing what you were doing at them clubs, do you reckon that's why?

10:39Because you had such an overcasting view of the club, you had your fingers in all the pies, basically. Oh, without a doubt. Without a doubt. And that education that I got, when I think about it, and you're triggering things in my mind now, but when I went to Derby I got the opportunity to work with Jim Smith unbelievable just like Maurice Wise Old Al but taught me so many things especially about my management but we played 4-4-2 the usual 4-4-2

11:18planned and we had one kind of striker in there and one and everything like that so we were basically like that And we never won a game. And we would get hammered. And I remember Jim and everything. And we signed a Croatian, Igor Stimac,

11:42who, big kind of centre-half, midfield player, but really imposing. We went to Tramme, I remember it to this day. Went to Tramme, we got beat 5-1. And we played him as a midfield player. and we played him there as a midfield player. And he was all right. And he actually scored the goal. And what his goal was, he picked the ball up from deep and went all the way through midfield playing little combinations and shot and scored. We got beat 5-1. He scored the one goal.

12:21So we kind of went, we've got to do something now because we've seen that. We've seen that. So what's his best position? So it was a little bit about actually in putting players into a system it was about, okay, how are we going to get the best out of each player? So, you know, round pegs, round holes, square pegs, square holes. Yeah. A lot of debate. Yeah. Especially, you know, with hammering and what's happened since and what happened before and other clubs. Yeah. So we had a deep search and looked at our players and went, OK, we've got this, we've got full-backs who are attacking, we've got midfield players who've got legs, and we've got a 10 and we're leaving a decent striker on the bench.

13:09OK, what are we going to do? And I said, he's a sweeper. He's a centre-back. He's a sweeper. He was the king when he entered the field. He was like, give me the ball. So we were making the focal point of things. We got two good defenders who were man-markers. Two attacking full-backs who were very good, I think Chrissie Powell and Larson. We had midfield players, Darrell Powell, Lee Carsley. And we had a 10 from Holland. And eventually we had like a one-shop and a stourage up front. and so I looked and I went and I didn't say anything to him and I remember going out on a Thursday and we had 11-11 and I just so we're playing that not much instruction or anything we're just playing that 11-11 have a look and we played it and it's another one I remember to this day on the training field oh my god I win we've done it we've done it we've done it and we had that session and everyone was comfortable in that in their positions especially Igor dominated and I remember going back in the office and Jim hadn't come out training and he's coming so excited I said I found it it's like a light bulb moment a light bulb moment I've got it and I said three five two you're crazy Steve and I went no I'm not I'm not a slight got it and we tried it the next day a little bit in training and we stuck to it and we went we went 22 games unbeaten and went from the bottom of the league to the top of the league purely on that yeah so I didn't even coach it I just moulded around the players it just went and I've often had that like not many times but a light bulb moment or thought don't instruct just throw them a ball and see if it works because I always remember from Pep Pep Guardiola and he calls it something something effect anyway basically you know when you start the football match you know and you'll go oh my word they're killing us it's not working what we've worked is just not working and you as a coach we've got to change something we've got to change it and he said this effect is if you just leave it if you just leave it and get over the hump you'll grow the players will grow into it and adapt and realise and you give them that to do that and I've always believed in that since doing it at Derby and then I saw it at my first game Man U as assistant yeah Knott's Forest yeah Knott's Forest started the game 100 miles an hour and I was going, we can't pass, we can't keep the ball, we keep losing possession.

16:47I remember turning to Jim Ryan and saying, didn't they change anything, Jim? We've been killed. They're running all over us, pitching the ball, transitions. He just tapped me on and said, we wait, we wait. Yeah. Yeah. And he said, and then all of a sudden, we beat the press. We had a chance. And then we beat the press again. We had a chance. We beat it again and we scored a goal. One each. And we beat it again, scored again. Beat it again, scored again. Game ended up 8-1. But the first 20 minutes, if you'd have said to me, that game's going to be 8-1, I'd have said, you're on another planet. I want to move on now, obviously, from Oxford and Derby to Manchester United in 1999.

17:36And I think the thing that I would always love to get from someone who's worked in that higher of a level, the individuals, is there a moment where you just walk in and let's say it's your first training session, you walk out and you see David Beckham, for example, and you go, oh Christ, this is the level. Was there one player one moment where you thought this is almost the pinnacle of the quality?

18:09I think it was obviously it was very nerve-wracking going in Steve McLaren who's he our new coach what I always found to play is every level really but especially at that level oh my word they killed you every day cold shoulder yeah they killed you every day so if a disc was out of the line if you hadn't put the bib out or if you're a bit short of this, if you bumbled a bit, oh, they killed you. Yeah. Killed you. Now I've got to be. So I over-prepare for everything. And every session I over-prepared. So I was up until 2 or 3 in the morning visualising it, making sure I got it right. I was out at 9 o 'clock putting everything out.

18:56I was like an airport, you know, with everything going in here. boxes, warm-up, going through it, going through it, being right if anything goes.

19:09But I think from the first moment, the main thing, we used to have boxes and they were famous. Manchester United, don't lose the boxes. Old and young, I think, a box. And I used to join in at that time. We used to do them at Derby. but going in that box for the first time and being in it oh my god the quality, the speed the competitiveness the arguing the wow controlling that so I don't know because of you've just got to go in and you've just got to have belief in it and try and just develop. And I remember Alex telling me, so Alex, I said, what do you want me to coach? He said, what did you do at Derby?

20:09I said, well, I did. He said, whatever you did at Derby, that's why you're here. So just go out there and do that. And that gave me a little bit more confidence and belief in myself that I wasn't under instructions to do anything. And more or less, you know, that was my picture. That was my blank screen. I can fill it how I want. And there were certain things that he required. You know, he required intensity. He required discipline. He required standards. He required quality. He required the boxes. He required possession sessions and small competitive games and structured practice in terms of, and he only ever really instructed me to do something maybe once or twice, and that was,

21:05and I hear Renny talking about it as well, you know, play forward, run forward. Think forward. Think forward. it's a forward passing forward running game football think that and when we stopped doing that and playing sideways too much and going I remember one player he he ran across the field with a ball Old Trafford I remember it and then he turned and he's one of them that ran the other side as well that was about half an hour half time he came off he said I don't want square forward forward. So everything had to be positive and forward. And basically, after the first game, 8-1, what do I do?

21:52I focused on the one. So I focused on the defenders. And with the defenders, we introduced things like Prozone, where they got the... Running stuff. They got not just running, but also tactical, so they follow lines, how close they were to each other, how they were squeezed don't compact with the team or not and they were fascinated by that, the forwards? Nah, nah, no. Steve don't show me anything like that but the defenders were really intrigued and Gary especially so I thought I'll do that. So it was quite simple to coach and I think that's the key which I say to everybody, simplicity is key don't complicate it and all we did was that back four and maybe we'd rotate with but Keane, Scholes, Keane, Scholes but whoever was sent so far in a two we'd have and we'd have our front eight or even ten against six and just throw them the ball just get on with it and I used to say to these back four players and the midfield they said Saturday will be easy after you've done this the training session because Dennis against Beckham all the time Gary against Giggs the midfield whoever was always rotating you've got York and Cole up there and then we used to swap it and sharing him on Solskjaer it's the quality the quality so on Saturday you're not going to get this quality so we did a lot of work in terms of that in terms of defending and we gave freedom to the forward players and didn't hamper what they did and I always remember you know with 10 games to go in that first time first season I joined you know he did say to me Steve 10 games to go focus on clean sheets yeah I want clean sheets because clean sheets wins championships and I always remember that so basically it was it was quite the key was and it always has been and always will be training's got to be a certain standard it's got to be disciplined but it's got to be competition yeah so I don't know you speak to many of the players and we've just done those goals yeah um podcasting talking about Friday Friday morning games all the young yeah kicked lumps out of each other kicked lumps out of each other it was so competitive but they took that into the game when when you talk about them 10 games left was there an air of like we're good enough to win the lot here in terms of the stuff you were seeing every week and I mean you just said the training sessions then obviously Europe was a different beast at that time and I think there was certain there was certain stuff in Europe that maybe was adapted when you went into the Champions League but was there a sense of at what point did you start to go this is on was it that 10 game mark?

25:07The key to it was the semi-final against Arsenal at Villa Park, second leg, and the famous Giggs goal, penalty save, keen sending off, and you end up winning. How? Many times you go and whatever. the football gods are the football gods and they'll have you. Yeah, they'll come back to get you. They will have you. Yeah. So you do something wrong six months ago, they'll come and get you. They're on your side that day. But you do know that, oh my God, the football gods are with us. And after that game going in the dressing room, after that walking in, there was a feeling amongst the players, we can win the lot.

26:05and that's when they probably started thinking that way and talking that way and that ramped actually the pressure up. Immersing yourself in all things soccer ahead of this summer's World Cup? I'm Alex Abnos, Senior Sports Editor from The Guardian. Whether you're a soccer beginner or you know the game inside and out, we've got you covered. From one of the fastest growing soccer newsrooms, The Guardian brings you in-depth World Cup coverage that gets into the winners and losers on and off the pitch. Read, watch, and listen as our journalists connect the dots between the games, the cultures, and this political moment.

26:42We'll have daily newsletters throughout the tournament, a global perspective, and a squad of Americans, including me, on the ground with the U.S. national team. Plus, if you want to test your soccer knowledge, try On The Ball. It's a game in the Guardian app, and it's really, really fun. And if you're into stuff like this... Well, I think the problem is if you give footballers an inch, they will take a mile. Is it too much when it's this close? It's a bit much. It's a bit too real. Maybe you could just talk with a slight delay. Be sure to listen to our Football Weekly podcast for on-the-move expert analysis.

27:11The Guardian, bringing you the whole picture on soccer. Search Guardian Soccer for more. When you manage procurement for multiple facilities, every order matters. But when it's for a hospital system, they matter even more. Granger gets it and knows there's no time for managing multiple suppliers and no room for shipping delays. That's why Granger offers millions of products in fast, dependable delivery. so you can keep your facility stocked, safe, and running smoothly. Call 1-800-GRAINGER, click grainger.com, or just stop by. Grainger, for the ones who get it done. Have you ever been stuck on a weight loss plateau, trying everything and anything you can to lose that extra weight and reach peak health?

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28:31states. Mom, can you tell me a story? Sure. Once upon a time, a mom needed a new car. Was she brave? She was tired, mostly. But she went to Carvana.com and found a great car at a great price. No secret treasure map required. Did she have to find a dragon? Nope, she bought it 100 % online. From her bed, actually. Was it scary? Honey, it was as unscary as car buying could be. Did the car have a sunroof? It did, actually. Okay, good story. Car buying you'll want to tell stories about. Buy your car today on... Carvana! Delivery fees may apply. Joe, when you were talking before when you was at Oxford and Derby and were talking about players are your tactics basically, so you're adapting around your players and you're giving the freedom.

29:13Was there a moment where you've gone into Manchester United, there's this much quality and it's almost right there in front of you, what everyone can do. Was there It's just Two midfielders who can run and pass it One up, one down One full back up, one down Energy down the wings Crosses from wide Two strikers runs in behind Was it that clear for you when you went in? Or was there stuff that you had to tweak around To make it click at certain moments? Yeah It's a great question Because obviously I'd come from Derby And we'd played A 5-3-2 and then we're playing Manchester United and it's a 4-4-2 and it's just so simple at the time it was just so simple everybody knew the jobs and I think it was a lot of it was combinations a lot of it was combinations so Gary with X Dennis with Giggsie telepathic Keane and Scholes telepathic Yap and Ronnie Johnson just you're cold you know so everything was about combinations so we were our stats and my stats when I have moved on is you know can you can you get me tell me what the best if you're an analyst tell me what the best combination of centre backs tell me who keeps the most green sheets concedes the least goals or shots against or things like that so tell me you know the combination so I would say the back four what's the best back four so far what's the best midfield you know what's won the most games and when have we won the most games with what strikers yeah and funny and you work that out and this is where stats came into it and you're going what's in a combination I never thought of I never thought of but it works so it might not look good but it works you know it's like having say Varane in the when I first went to Manchester United the second time having the likes of Varane and wanting Varane to as we have midfield players to play higher up and to step in and going on the opposite number 10 or something like that and it was uncomfortable because he was always a defender yeah a proper man's defender yeah and when he played and played like that we had more clean sheets yeah well when we sat in it was easier because he could head everything block everything and everything that went in so it's adapting to to that so it was simple and it always the point is with with the gaffer being there so many years you talk about structure philosophy principles you know they were there they were in stone so anyone who came in knew exactly what their job was their education was already it was there this is Manchester United and it was it was from the gaffer that you know what is it play forward think forward forward thinking game forward running forward passing think forward all the time and now you look back at some of the games and You know, Schmeichel, we didn't play out.

32:52We hit the front two. We picked up second balls. We crossed from anywhere and we had players in the box. We always had three in the box. So therefore, you always had a chance. When it came out, our counter press was so good that sometimes we did that to get the counter press. Oh, so punt it long and chase it, almost like a rugby punt, like up the pitch and follow it up. Yeah, but we would have a lot of, you know, attacks down here, and attacks in there and gigs in and Beckham's out there and Gary's there and you've got people coming in, centre-backs on rest defence, you've got Keane and Scholes and Scholes would probably go.

33:33You've got three in the box in terms of that. And what we used to love was just cross. Just cross. They'd clear it but we'd pick up the ball in here and then the defenders, they would be disorganised. They would be disorganised when they come out and they'd be trying to press in the fact of as they came out, as they came out, little gaps opened up. And so Scholes or Keane would pick the ball up or would pick the ball up and just go bump into him, turn and finish, or if he was in, bump into him, one, two and finish. So I would say our strength was we score from crosses. Combinations. And then combinations.

34:24So first phase, second phase attacks. So constantly in most teams it's first phase, second phase, third phase if you can. With Manchester United it was first phase, second phase, third phase, fourth. It was more phases dominating this area in here. So we did a lot of work with the players, front players, in terms of, yes, defending, but then second phase, winning the ball. And we scored quite a few goals from second phase, because the defenders come out and they're not together. Where? As we go wide, they're together. The ball gets cleared, they're out, they're a little scrappy. You're creating disorganisation, aren't you?

35:14It's controlled chaos in many ways. Absolutely. Yeah, and I think that's one thing that, for me, does get on my nerves a little bit because when people do say stuff like it's not coached because it's not player stood here, player stood there, it's obviously like there's so much coaching that goes into, as you say, the first phase, the second phase. Even as a Manchester United fan, I think the Jurgen Klopp teams, the Liverpool Jurgen Klopp teams, they had similar ideas in terms of full-backs, high, wide, crossing, very high regains, turning loose balls into chances. I think he actually has a quote that's saying, pressing is the best playmaker.

35:51And it's so true. United never played with a traditional playmaker, but their playmaker was the intensity, energy, the running, the chaos and disorganisation. And I think watching you do that's brilliant because it just puts it into perspective of when you see them knockdowns, when you see them loose balls around the box, you think of all the goals that Scholes scored from outside the box from second phases and stuff. And yeah, it really does put it into reality. And I think, yeah. What was the biggest change from Premier League to Europe? Was there something that you looked at in Europe that was vastly different, a vastly different beast at that time?

36:29I think probably we played one game and I can't remember what it was. And I think we drew 1-1 at home at Old Trafford. I think it might have been into Milan. and after the game, we had a meeting in the hotel, and he was quite open, and I think we're getting a lot of criticism for playing 4-4-2 against European teams who were playing 4-3-3, diamond, whatever, or different systems, and he was just so passionate in his talk to the players, and quite emotional about this is Manchester United these are our principles we play forward, we pass forward we run forward, we think forward all the time and if that means playing 4-2, 4-4, 4-2 we will play that we will play that because that's Manchester United real wow that's powerful and he stuck with it all the way and quite intriguing when and whatever the cup Bayern Munich game European Cup they played they played three at the back they played three at the back the wingers, two wing backs onto there didn't they and then they'd move then they'd have Effenberg and Effenberg and Yanker and Basler and somebody there and it was it was really unusual in the fact of we were you know our Yorkie and Cole Beckham and Butt Jesper and Giggs

38:44that's right 4-2 yeah that side and that's how they played and it was coming across something like this which we never come across and we really struggled so we wanted to dominate wide areas all the time in terms of wide areas. But they had wingbacks. Yeah. Just marked. Yeah. They got wingbacks and they got the central because they got free in there. Well, you look at it and I hadn't realised, but I think Basler and I can't remember who it was on this side, came inside. So they weren't real wingers. And so it's a three, four, three. Yeah. They've got so much in there as well. But what's the most common system?

39:33Yeah. in terms of modern day football we've done it and we adapt to it because alright we'll play 4-4-2 because we think in build up basically if we start with 4-4-2 in build up I always say play 3-4 and 2 with a box but Bayern Munich were doing it way back then but the only difference was they were man markers yeah they were man markers these two so Cole and York were man marked Matthias was the sweeper yeah so he was a free man yeah they were man marking they were man marking and we and so we thought our dominant we dominate in the wide areas with a full back and a wide player 2v1 2v1 yeah and we dominate with a wide player so these actually never marked them and them no so they played inside and inside and these were on the boy Yanka who was a big target and had to be marked.

40:36Yeah. So it was the plus one at the back. Don't leave them one-on-one. But the point is these two and it was so unique to us then that they were creating a box in midfield. Yeah. So one, they were reluctant to go. If they did go, whenever they won the ball, they were on transition. Yeah, yeah. because if you look at it like that and if they're narrow these are 3v2 almost because they're not going with the fullback which is and when you look at the game and especially the second half when we needed a goal and these went forward they transitioned in them areas so they didn't follow them back and these two Effenberg was sublime wasn't it in the field in terms of so they were had that so basically it was a cat and mouse game and I looked at the game and I thought that we didn't dominate they dominated second balls in here so we had to play more direct they won every second ball in here so they transitioned all day hit the bar hit the post yeah hit the bar and the post Erfenberg had a great chance to kill us off but you know we got better when actually Solskjaer and Sheringham came back on because Sheringham was better in the air and got flick on so we won more second ball and York was on the right hand side but he was in here so therefore we won more second balls and we added pressure to that but when you look at that It's hard to look at isn't it?

42:11And how Manchester United played in them 4-4-2 but you look at the modern day and now everybody and we do it even when we play 4-4-2 we build up with three we have two controllers and two 10s and width in the wide areas however you get that that might be a inverted fullback could start in a 4-4-2 but it goes exactly however inverted fullbacks fullbacks on a 10 they stay there whatever it's a 3-4-3 build up outnumber get the box in midfield yeah and that's changed and funny enough the 4-4-2 still remains as the best yeah defensive pressing yeah they use it all off the ball don't they everyone uses it off the ball yeah I always remember I struggled I was thinking you know against these top teams when I went to Middlesbrough not so much Middlesbrough but further on when he was out of the game he'd go this team's going to dominate possession how do you stop a team dominating possession he says put two up stop the centre backs playing yeah and it works yeah that's why the 4-4-2 works and you get you so you know we had wingers who were really wide who were really wide and never tucked in now we get wingers that that took in yeah always inside so we've progressed but we've progressed but it's still the same still the same same but different it's same but different so in Middlesbrough yeah I used to think right we're in Europe yeah I've got to play 4-3-3 because Europe you've got to play three midfield players and now and we were okay but I had I had Hasselbank Viduka I had Yakubu and I was playing 4-3-3 and I had the Viduka You had four strikers on the pitch at one point didn't you in the United Cup Yeah in the United Cup to start with I only had one so Viduka was either dropped or Yakubu was dropped and I couldn't Jimmy would kill me if I dropped him but and you know what I did in Europe I was going it's nice and this but it's not real and one game we tried it we played 4-4-2 and we put Viduka and Hasselbank up front and we played a little bit more direct yeah while we killed everybody yeah yeah we killed everybody that Middlesbrough run like I've got it here RZ against Louis van Gaal yeah won that game didn't concede a single goal in the group stage defence is key yep coached in a win over AS Roma Luciano Spalletti was the manager he's now Juventus manager come back from 3-0 down in the quarterfinal and semi-final it's a remarkable run yeah I mean it was and it just shows you adapt and you adapt to the players we were needed goals obviously in them two games and we'd be as a staff and Steve Randa was one of the assistants he's around we need three goals you know what are we going to do just put Yacoubu there just put Morrison right back and Downing left back and put another right winger on there Macaroni who's a striker so we'd have Macaroni Viduka Hasselbank Yacoubu Downing Downing Morrison two centre-backs and Boateng and Zenden and we played that when we needed three goals and it was Was you a gambler as a coach?

46:08Because I love coaches who chuck the kitchen sink obviously it's what I grew up on because I think I think I always prefer it's a cliche and you prefer to go for it and lose rather than than not yeah I was and I wasn't and I've had periods where I am and I am not but I think that's working with the gaffer he's a risk taker many times he did similar to win games and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't and you just have to accept the consequences and that's management but you have to. So, you know, one aspect of the success at Middlesbrough was risk-taking, was being bold. Going for it. Yeah.

47:02And the bolder you are, it's amazing. You know, and it's, we're talking the other day about young players and that Dowman, you know, coming on and being bloodied at 16 and what the gaffer did with his youth. And, you know, I think at Middlesbrough, we had a team that averaged about 17, 18 years old against Fulham. It's about being bold and it's difficult sometimes as managers but that's what you've got to do. When you do it, it does generally work out. Is that one of your key things when you look at if you describe your management style? Would you say being bold, being brave is one of them? I would say I want good players.

47:48Always. I want good players. And, you know, good players are difficult to manage, to handle. But I like them because they win your football matches. We had many, you know, just at Manchester United, but we had them at Middlesbrough and then. And so I like big... So I like... I'm bold on them signings, you know. Let's bring Janinho back, you know. We'll sign Arsenal, Ben. we'll save now we had Boxich when I first went there sensational goalscorer but as for the team not so much so being bold in terms of he's done his job he's got to go and somebody else has got to come in you know and being bold and putting two up I think you have to be you have to be and that's probably why management is such a rollercoaster it's a journey with no real destination yeah no you know you couldn't be underfoot at any point even if you even if you win the treble if you exactly so it's it's and you've you've got you've got to go and to go for it you've got to damn good players the better players you've got you put them in the right positions give them the right information you give them the right information you set standards and you discipline and you're consistent in that and you've got good staff around you've got a patient owner you're going to be successful.

49:19Yeah. I wanted to say like Middlesbrough leading the club to their first major trophy obviously the League Cup in 2004 their highest ever Premier League finish in 04-05 UEFA Cup final run obviously in 2006 is that one you look back on that you that you think was one of your best your best stints? I think it was an education in building a team over five years and when I look at the structure of football now, you'll probably get five months. Yeah. Well, initially, sorry, five weeks initially and you can change. But it just shows. When I went in Middlesbrough and I looked and we had about, I remember, 42 pros.

50:06I'm going, oh my God. Finished, I think, fourth bottom. Yeah. I'm going, oh, there's some characters in here as well. And then I looked at the academy, there's 15 boys, and we took them, I went, oh my God. And I remember first week saying to the staff, this is going to be hard, but if we're patient, the future is bright because there's some good youngsters here. So it was just getting through that period. And we only got through that period purely through Steve Gibson, being patient understanding making signings that you know you think were absolutely ridiculous you know we're signing Southgate we're signing Mendietas Zendens, Bortons, Viducas but we built it we brought Giannino back yeah I don't know so we're building it and the first two years were I mean the first four games I didn't win pointless clueless the first two years we had a good we finished well first year got cup semi-final but the next year we were disappointed and everyone's going I like that but little did they know the third year was the breakthrough and we developed and bought better players and more players and Giannino back so being bold and taking risks but that's also down to the owner as well and the understanding and having the time I could have been sacked four or five times in the first two years even two and a half years of that easy and i would have sometimes sacked myself for some of the things that that i did but he he got the staff up when i think we're all going to get sacked and there'd be pints on the table and we'd have a drink with him you know people throwing season tickets at you you know my last year my fifth year you know but just getting through that and you know three months later you're in the UEFA Cup final and it's Cup semi-final so patience by that you're not going to get that no you're not going to get it anymore are you no and I wish I wish owners would do it and you try and fast track it you've got no chance no you've got no chance you can't sign everybody in one window and it's going to change.

52:33You know, what you need is, you know, if you go in in a really good squad, you're lucky. But most majority are going in with bad ones and just need lifting. So we need instant impact. But ownership's not going to give you them years that we had in the past to build and develop like the gaffer had and I had at Middlesbrough. So that's why it was five years purely because of the owner's patience. Yeah, and you've got to thank them for that. And obviously it's so, as you were saying, it's a rollercoaster. It's so up and down now. You don't get any time, really, especially to build something. If you go in as a project manager, as a project coach.

53:12What project? Yeah, there's no projects. There's no such word as project. Do you look at managers like, I mean, what Arsenal have done with Mikel Arteta? Do you look at that and go, that is what it looks like? Perfect example. Yeah. Perfect example of, yeah, I think, you know, money in the bank. Yeah, of course. I won the cup in the first year. That gives you, you know, and I had that semi-final first year. That kept me the second year. You know, second year was a bit of a disaster. I don't know. I stayed the third year and then we won the cup. So it went on from that. It's just, you know, when you're thinking it's a disaster, you just get over the hump and you go again.

53:57And that's football, but it's difficult now. You've got to have instant impact. And don't think of projects. How are we going to win now? Let everybody else plan for the future. Yeah. Obviously, it's a massive opportunity. How did the England move come about? I think I was involved with England for four or five years with Sven yeah so I'd been to three tournaments yeah two World Cups Euros in Portugal I knew the players I was at Man United you know I think sorry I was at Man I'm managing Middlesbrough so I was a manager there so I think I was just right place right time yeah Yeah. Was there anything, obviously it's your first international major job, what was the biggest difference that maybe people don't understand about how tough jobs like that are in comparison to club football?

55:08Or is it that different? I don't think it's that different. The intensity is, you know, instead of a town, it's a nation. Yeah, yeah. The pressure. So the pressure, the pressure of the media in that period is enormous. But the key thing is, for me, I was a day-to-day. I was with players, I was week-to-week, doing Middlesbrough, doing England, and all that prep, and then all of a sudden it dies down and then you've got more time to think, scrutinise. Media's difficult, but everybody knows that. Yeah. So everyone thinks it's a tough job because of the media, because of the days in between. The in-between camps.

56:04Yeah. Yeah. Because I don't think I'd like that. I think because it's such spaced out, you don't really get any momentum, really. No. I now just doing Jamaica and coming back from Jamaica I loved it yeah the rhythm of that yeah was really intense for for two three weeks and then plan but then I was young and want to do it every day I want to do it every day I want to be with the players every day and do that couldn't do that and and yeah ultimately ultimately everything is everything that's noise off the pitch the media the pressure and everything what happens on here is the most important yeah that's it so for me when I talk to any owner or anything don't worry about the marketing don't worry about commercial don't worry about anything like that let me coach that's it that's it the most important people are them players there and the coach and his staff on the side, or the coach on the side.

57:14That's it. You've got to get your product right. And do people understand that? I don't know. So he said, look, will it make the boat go faster? If it does, we will do it. So we want all suggestions. Will it make it go faster? If it does, we'll do it. Will it make the product better? If it does, we'll try and do it. All right? So that's it. so that was always the thing with England was getting it right on the field and the balance and we couldn't get it right at all to certain things no one really could around that no I think you know I think Southgate has has led the way yeah yeah very underrated I don't think he's underrated anymore I think people have now started to realise the culture that he built there and how likeable England was to watch as a nation there was no sort of boundaries between each player it looks like a proper group that all really get along with each other and it's amazing to follow your country now because they're so together yeah so together yeah and I you know I've just done a documentary on England and I'm not too sure in that golden generation era what they say no I don't think I don't think the players are we enjoyed it Oh, right, okay.

58:40Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah. So we, you know, even Jamaica, we come together. Oh, my God, the players get on like a house on fire. It's really tight-knit. And it's a great vibe and everything. We never had that in England. It was quiet. And that wasn't the rivalry. That was just purely playing for England. And the pressure and the media. and also finding a structure in which we can win. Yeah. Because there's so many good players of golden generation that, you know, I think what Southgate did was he got a core of players and they stuck together and they all knew the role, they all knew their position.

59:24You know, it was built around Kane. And from that, we go to that and that and that. And the players accepted the role and the balance was far better. Whereas we had the like, how could you drop Beckham? How could you drop Lampard? How could you drop Gerrard, Owen, Rooney? Is that the search for the balance though? Yeah. Is it simply just because, well, I mean, the Galacticos are the best example of it. There's too much quality sometimes. Yeah. You will win games. Yeah. And you will win tournaments on that if you get the luck. Yeah. And you avoid injuries. We didn't get that in any of the three tournaments that I was involved in.

1:00:06Always had an injury to Owen, always had an injury to Rooney, always sending off, always an injury to Beckham. One or two of them were always in, and they were vital. They were the glue, they were the cane. Yeah, they were your cane. They were the missing piece of the jigsaw, especially Owen and Rooney together. Yeah. So, you know, and I've supported several of the players and they said, you know, it wasn't a dislike. It was just a, you could never find the balance. You know, people said, well, we should put Owen Hargreaves in that sixth position. Okay, great. But who's coming out? And I went in a taxi once in London and he said, you're picking the wrong team, Steve.

1:00:50You're picking the wrong team. I said, go on, pick your team. Pick your team. And he picked the team and I said, that will win the World Cup. And he smiled and he went, you think so I said absolutely certain you've got 12 players he's playing the 4-4-3 yeah and I went and he went oh god I have haven't I I said go on then who would you take out mmm mmm I'd take him out what you'd take him out and then that leaves oh yeah yeah you're right yeah and we were about 10 minutes on the journey now he understands on his side and he went oh tough job Yeah, the hard job though. Talking about a bounce back, FC 20, the first team, well, the last team to have won the league that isn't the big three, PSV, Feyenoord, Ajax in 09-10.

1:01:46Since then, no one else outside the big three has won it. What was that like going to the Netherlands and coaching there? Was there vast differences? Was it massive? Massive. It was very frowned upon then, wasn't it? I mean, no one really. No, they say when I was there that I was 100 Dutch coaches working around the world at that time. And I think they said there was two from England who were working abroad. I always say for me as a coach going to Manchester United was like going to finishing school this is it this is the ultimate how to win at the elite level going to Holland was the finishing school of football in terms of education tactics solving problems because you had to keep possession, you had to solve problems, you had to press.

1:03:00So it was a new language and different football. And I was fortunate that Eric was my assistant the first year because he ran everything. So they, similar to United, for years had a structure, principles, a way of playing that they believed in and drummed in from the first team all the way down and bought players to fit that so we play four at the back one dominant centre back one who could come out and play two full backs one who always got forward great going forward the other one was more defensive and took in We always had one six, always. He was the captain. He was the brains and the glue.

1:03:55We always had kind of an eight. And this one was Jansen. What a player, left foot. So he was an eight, kind of up and down. Great passer of the ball. So we had a sitter, a passer, and we had a ten. We had a ten. I said it'll come to me we had a tendon we had Blas Cuffo center big striker we had two wingers who were wingers Anatovic and Elia and they always picked quick wing that was it that was the structure so whenever you went you went well we're going to buy a right back it's got to be an attacking right back wingers wingers were the the B.O. I remember Elia he was rapid rapid really quick and then so one was a winger yeah and the other one was a winger come inside so like Anatovic was given licence to do that and we had Ronnie Stam here who just went over so basically we built with a three we had a one and we had we had kind of three tens or two tens and two strikers in terms of that so that was kind of developed on it's very interesting you've got it set up right now on the board there's the the the diamond the free back with a diamond in the midfield which is obviously a very Dutch Dutch thing it was Cruyff with the diamond in the centre and I remember I think Tenag played it when he was at United second time round I think once maybe twice in Europe and it's very interesting you put that up because yeah it's one of my favourite shapes when it works it works it can work and obviously the Ajax team who did it was incredible but yeah that is very interesting that you've got it set up yeah with one with one sitter yeah definitely always a six one and sometimes we're like a double six but you know runner and a definite ten and him coming inside and him being at the focal point and having two wide men who could do that yeah more rapid the balance was great and I never scouted so you know we need to buy next year we need and they would get the players that would fit the system so it was great so Artney was just them educated me unfortunately with Eric kind of did everything and I was the manager so it was good for me because I sat back and I was the you know and I asked why did you pick me to be the manager because we need somebody a leader we need somebody at the top to and you've just been the manager so everybody in Europe it was respected Probably not in here it was, but in Europe it was respected.

1:06:45So they gave me the opportunity to do that. Yeah. And how much did that shape your education at that point? Was that a massive turning point? Massive. Yeah. Massive. So I think it's so interesting you use words like rest defence and double six because they're very traditionally Dutch words, like ten hag, rest defence, all the time. And I think it's just really interesting how you've already, obviously he picked up them phrases them learnings from from Netherlands and yeah it's just mental to me how big the education shift was between between the two I think on what's changed yeah from before to coming back to to United working with Eric obviously you know in the middle working with Eric also and having that you know the key rest of it what's rest of it what's the rest of the thing you know and centre backs and being compact and counter press things like that oh wow you know and then the second time now we're into half spaces yep central spaces five lanes five lanes yep five lanes build up with five lanes yeah make sure we rest with three lanes for me it's the language that changes so it's understanding yeah the language yeah and so you know wherever you go in, you have to, this is our language that we've got.

1:08:12So it was totally different. And we had captain. Yeah. We could pull the captain in and say, and everything was about possession and build up and how to counter that. So all coaches were solving problems. How do we break a block? How do we build up? How do we press? Yeah. It was, and the captain, he could I'd say are we going to do that then on Saturday he'd go well we do that we do that we do that we do that you know we get a train so he stops him the weakest centre back has the ball and he goes and then they have a six so the ten goes the eight goes to the six and they'll have a spare one here in midfield they always had a spare one so the six goes into there and they have a 10 and one centre-back must go on to the 10 and then he must be.

1:09:10So they called it a train through the middle. To follow up the press. So these were man-to-man, wide players and full-backs. Stay with your man. I'm a great, stay with your man. Follow him to the 6-yard box. Yeah, follow him back here, follow him back there. We had likes of Anatovic. Asking Anatovic to follow. Anyway, so they, so he made it simple that we made a train through the middle. And that looks petrifying, doesn't it, on the board? I went, wow, really? It's like one ball's lost there. Exactly. Through that middle, but you had to time it right. And we practiced that all day. And the key was going one-on-one, basically, all over the park.

1:09:54But we picked, always picked on the weak defender. So either side would be like that. and it was bold because centre-back had to had to go in and rest defence was similar where it was normally two centre-backs would be back here centre-backs could be in there to counter press so it was an education in terms of that Joe when you're going from club to club and obviously we were talking about we were talking about Varane before in terms of he defends obviously he's boxed very well when you went back to United in the second time and obviously the idea I knew the idea was to high press all the time was there an element of okay we can high press in certain moments but we have currently got a lot of players who suit this style of football which is a little bit more sitting Rashford in behind direct runs was there a thought that okay let's just step back a little minute change what we're doing here let's go a little bit more reserved and that'll get the best out of Rashford in behind Varane heading the ball stuff like that, Casamero of course as well in the middle that was always the contention that was always the tension in the place and wanting to do that and the Newcastle Wembley is a perfect example of that where we'd done this and we'd done that and we'd done the other and I couldn't believe it that we were here kicked every ball long yeah and we were there going he's kicking every ball long yeah and you know and the key the key is there was there was so much also intelligence in that team and experience in that team and And we had the way, the structure, yeah.

1:12:03And it could work, but it didn't work consistently. We had to have something that worked consistent. So we'd always work on high press, and they'd build like this, so we'd do that, and all of a sudden you come to a Saturday and they'd build another way, and you think, they can't adjust to that. Or they can't do it consistently. So we can do it for 20 minutes, but we can't do it consistently. and it's a bit, you know, to teach Rashford that, Garnaccio that, especially the wide players to be able to do that. And that was the difficulty I think we always had was getting them wide players whose strength was wide, get the ball, transition to actually be the ones who took in consistently all the time to help that midfield and dominate central areas.

1:12:50So it was always, you know, don't let them come through the middle, make them go out wide so don't allow that. So that was a good example where the players also took responsibility in terms of Boran, Casabiro, Bruno, top players who knew the game as well and knew how to win. But that was always the dilemma was getting the balance of we had the players, just getting balance off getting the players to actually do that job consistently over 90 minutes and every every couple of days really because obviously I think we played I think we actually played that first season at 22-23 more games than anyone else in Europe's top five leagues I remember seeing that and then the FA Cup final against Manchester City where we won 2-1 it's probably one of the the most enjoyable games I've had as a United fan watching because I think having Garnaccio and Kobe both score in that game is incredible for Manchester United everything we stand for but also the plan for that game where it was 4-4-2 Bruno McTominay up front and I thought when it's quite funny I did a piece on the overlap saying this is what I think United should do and I remember we played a diamond against City early on in the season and it worked really well and I thought I think we'll do this again and it was watching it unfold was brilliant some of the work you know playing two centre forwards but not really playing anyone down the middle letting Rashford and Garnaccio high and wide I thought it was one of them plans where it's not easy to get one over on Guardiola especially in the final but that plan was amazing absolutely amazing yeah it's we've talked about it and yeah it really was a great plan and it really was a great plan in the making and Eric takes great credit in terms of for instance every Thursday our analysts would sit down and go through the opponent and it would be probably an hour and we'd ask questions and Eric would and things and from that Eric would kind of formulate the game plan and present that on to us on Friday.

1:15:23And then we'd go through it on Friday before we played. So we had this meeting. Analysts, a couple of analysts were in there. It was Tom, Paul Brand, and then the coaching staff. And we're going through City and we're looking. and it was if you could film it it would have been magnificent and it lasted about four or five hours four or five hours we went through and I've got to say you know Eric deserves credit for it because it was different and we I mean we weren't in the best of form at that time. Coventry were very lucky. Crystal Palace was a disaster. So we weren't in the best. So we had to do something and something different.

1:16:29And credit to Eric taking that on board. So a good four or five hours with that game plan to basically shore up the middle. Kobe around De Bruyne making sure I think left side I think left side they Guardiol oh Guardiol yeah on the left back big lad can run with it yeah but we felt it wasn't really a threat I think they played Foden again on the left yeah yeah so it wasn't like Doku or a winger winger yeah Dordalo can deal with that anyway but we could kind of leave that open so if anybody would have the ball we kind of said Guardiola can have the ball and then we all shuffle over right side can't have the ball I think it was like Walker who bombed on but De Bruyne in that always gave us problem in that space and Corbyn did a great job not just in terms of stopping him but running off him as well and it was a transition game that we played and the boys' stones going into midfield, which is why it was basically a 4-2-2-2.

1:17:50Very, very narrow wingers. But Scott and Bruno are doing a great job. And I say to Paul Brand and I say to Eric, you know you should keep that really go through make a film video of it because it was a great plan and I always thought after Coventry and I always thought we'd win the cup anyway somehow it just football gods it's Manchester United yeah it's just football gods the way it's going and so it happened we scored on transitions didn't we with people running off so it was a great plan and Eric deserves great credit and the rest and the analyst team as well led by Paul Brand who worked together and evolved on that and we knew that I went wow yeah that's good Well it's not a better place to wrap it up on that honestly absolutely brilliant it's one of the best conversations I've ever had that in terms of football especially when you started going on the board so yeah absolute pleasure thank you very very much amazing amazing thank you that was wicked honestly amazing yeah do you know when he started I was like yes

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