Strikers! The Golden Era, Rooney's Tips for Forwards & Is Kane the Best No. 9? | The Overlap Fan Debate

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1:53Mark is a Mochi member compensated for his story. If Harry stayed in the Premier League, he'd break Shearer's record. But also, if he played for United... He still can, he still should. If Drogba was smiling and happy in a game, you were all right. In terms of Premier League history, obviously you've got Shearer, Andy Cole, Michael Owen in that period was incredible. Have you come across any players that sleep with their hair dryers on as well? I've never blew myself up in DC. I looked over, nannies in full tears, crying. Then the scouse came out and I'd gone up to him and went, f***, he's crying.

2:29You talking about Shearer, Drogba, Kane, Aguero, but Henry sort of moved about that, a little bit like Wayne in some ways. The big thing for managers and coaches was stopping the players from going out and on the piss or whatever. And the manager. Is it ridiculous that Harry Kane is the best number nine the Premier League's ever seen.

2:55Hello and welcome back to the Fan Debate brought to you by Skybet. And as we had last week, we've got one of English football's greatest ever strikers, Wayne Rooney, joining me on the couch. So I just want to start off because we're going to do this show around great strikers and what makes a great striker. I mean, for you, when you're thinking about a great striker, centre forward, what are the first things that spring to mind? Goals. No, I think obviously scoring goals. I think there's been so many great strikers. You go back to Ronaldo, Arnane who had a bit of everything. I always say Drogba as a number nine he could head the ball hold it up.

3:37He was quick, powerful. Shearer. Out and out goal scorers I think that's when you think of a striker. Who was your hero growing up when you looked at centre forwards? It was different. I used to love Duncan Ferguson, Alan Shearer. I used to look at them too rarely. Paul Gascoigne as well. I know he's not a forward. And then as my game was developing, because I was playing in the older age groups. I was playing for the under-19s when I was 14. And the centre-backs were too strong for me. So then I changed my game a little bit to more than number 10. so I used to watch Jari Littmann I used to watch videos of Jari Littmann all the time when he was at Ajax Dortmund and just in terms of how he found space and got on the ball so I think that what you've just said there it just takes me back because would you believe I was a centre forward as a kid so I've got a little bit of expertise on that but when you talk about changing your game we always associate that don't we with players who are over 30 proper professionals not young players having to change your game to adapt and I think that shows even when you're only 14 you're having to change and adapt because you're playing with the under 18s now when I was a kid as a centre forward I was a number 9 scored goals you know seen as the best player in Liverpool and stuff like that and then I went to Lillyshaw and I was a league developer physically so you get into sort of 14 or 15 some of the lads were like men and I couldn't run in behind anymore I'd always been someone who was a number 9 ran in behind scored goals I couldn't do it and again I had to sort of think I'd have to do something different here.

5:15But that's even at a young age, I was only 14, so I ended up having to, someone who held the ball or get between the lines, try and get on the ball and touch us. Yeah, no, I think back then, obviously you normally play with two forwards. Back then, and the centre-backs, when I'm playing with the under-19s, they were way, way bigger than me. So every time the ball come in, he'd push me off the ball and so I was like, well, there's no point in me going up and standing up against him because I'm not physically ready for that yet. so I started coming a bit deeper and I had played midfield as well I played as a centre midfield player as well then I went to a forward so the natural thing for me was to say okay let's go and try and play just off the forward and try and create space and get in behind them midfield players and make the centre backs come out to try and catch me really Why has the world stopped creating centre forwards?

6:07It feels to me if I go back to the 90s or something and I feel like every country had five or six, you know, strikers where you go, you can just name them, you can just keep naming, you'd get up to sort of 20, 25 strikers. Is this the way the game's moving? Is it just something we've got to go through and they'll come again? Yeah, I think the forwards will come again and for me it's changed massively in terms of centre-forwards don't touch the ball no more. I don't know what it was, I heard someone talking about it the other week saying the centre-backs are having It's Gary, yeah. It was a guys I heard guys talking about saying the centre-backs have most touches of the ball.

6:45Like, goalkeepers now are having 50 touches a game. Then the centre-backs are having a lot of the most touches. For forwards, you're very rarely touching the ball now and you're expected to score a lot of goals. When Van Gaal came into Man United, he was telling me about the striker he had at Bayern Munich. It was at the time. Zaro? No, and I can't remember who it was, but he was saying he'd have like 15, 16 touches a game but score one or two goals and I was like, fuck that. I've always wanted to touch the ball and get on the ball and so I said to him, well, I'd rather go and play midfield than play as a number nine.

7:23I'd rather be involved in the game and I think the game's just changed that and it's a lot of build-up play, a lot of, everything's got to be precise now rather than, you know, put the ball forward, put it in the channel, go and compete with your centre-back. That's gone out of the game a bit now and no one crosses the ball. Do you think, the way the game's going do you think that's making people not want to be a striker they're actually not involved in the game so you're actually if you just if you think of a basic thing as a kid of like playing football it's touching the ball isn't it and being involved and you know so even when you go back to the sort of academies now and the way they're getting brought so I had a conversation with my lad my eldest boy is at United Academy and he's number nine he's a he gets the ball lays it off gets in the box saw him score a brilliant goal the other day yeah he did But he's a number nine.

8:09But then sometimes he plays on the right and he comes home and he's like, I enjoy it more playing off the right. So I keep saying, no, you're playing as a nine. He's better as a nine, even though he can play off the right. He's left-footed. So, yeah, I think, and he's like, it's boring. I think for a lot of number nines now, they're not involved in the game that much. They are trying to find different positions to go and play. OK, I mean, you scored 208 goals in the Premier League, one of the greatest strikers we've ever seen in the Premier League and in English football. I mean, I just want to ask you, what was a tough defender for you to play against?

8:48That doesn't necessarily mean the biggest name or the greatest defender against you. What did you find tough to come up against? So I've always said John Terry was the toughest defender I've played against. He was a great player, wasn't he? Yeah, even with both feet on the ball, he was good. and with JT he was brilliant in the air he could tackle but you'd always look and yourself you're very similar to JT you'd always look to him and think right I'm quick then I can run in behind him but you do as well you put yourself in a position where it was difficult to be able to do that because you'd read the game really well I used to like playing against big centre halves where JT's not the tallest as well but I used to like playing against big centre halves who wanted that body contact and wanted to go tight against you because then I could spin them or I could come off them and if they give me that yard to turn I knew I could take them on so I think it was defenders who Maldini when we played AC Milan he was like must have been 38 there in arm and again as good as he was you're thinking he's a bit older but always put himself in the position to nullify your strength fairly so I'd probably say JT was the toughest The way the centre forward Landscapes change And we're talking One up front Two wide players Centre forward Not touching the ball Who do you look at In the modern game Who reminds them Of yourself Sort of when you watch them Is there Someone who's got The traits of a Wayne Rooney Playing right now At times I think Jude Bellengam At times When he plays in that Ten roll Just because of his Character And He's energetic He likes to Put his foot in he'll have a goal you know his teammates he'll have a goal to the ref so I think there's a trait of him but in terms of forwards in the Premier League I'm not sure I used to I didn't enjoy playing this number I remember we played Milan away I'd scored two goals we won the game 2-0 and I come off the pitch and I hated the game and like I love scoring goals of course but I always wanted to be involved and my two best scoring seasons with United I scored 34 goals in both of them and I didn't enjoy the whole season because I was like I didn't feel like I was involved in the game so forwards have to be more selfish you have to be ruthless you have to be in the box and wait and rely on your teammates to create chances and I always wanted to be involved so What would you do now then?

11:28If you were playing now the way the game's getting played would you go and speak to the manager or you've got to change your style of play the manager or I want to leave or I can't play centre forward in this team I've got to play I could play there but you're not enjoying it my first ever game as a number nine was at Highbury it was the one where Roy and Vieira were arguing that was my first ever game as a lone striker number nine he's a top Arsenal team as well and I remember still if you ever watched that game back it was one of my best ever games I didn't score in the game we won 4-2 but it was one of my best games and I remember thinking I can play I never believed because I was young and I never believed I could play there as a number nine and long forward at that age as well and I think now what you're seeing is you're seeing Rashford of ladies being playing as an arm but Rashford Mbappe have both gone to nines this season players are scoring like you look at Salah Messi for a long time Ronaldo for a period of his career the goal scorers come from out wide and the forwards are there to do a job and pin defenders back in so if you've got that mindset that you want to score goals you've probably got a better opportunity from the wide areas because you get a bit more freedom you can get the ball and face your defender up rather than play and get back the goal so I think that's why you've lost them I think Isak Harland Watkins probably the three standout ones Rashford's doing a lot better now they're probably the standout ones in the league but beyond that you know in European football and world football there's not many you know natural number nine like Drogba was the one Drogba was yeah he was the one who you look at I would have loved to have played off Drogba and you know filling in little areas where he weren't Flav you've got a question for Wayne yeah Yeah, when you used to come to...

13:29Harry Kane as well, sorry. I forgot Harry. Funny you say that. When you used to come to White Lane, Man United, when I used to watch you, I genuinely thought that you were the best player I've seen come to Tottenham. You were just sensational. And when you used to drop into midfield and pick the ball up, it was unplayable at times. But as an out-and-out number nine, is it ridiculous? And is there a level of disrespect? And Adam disagrees with me, because we've had this conversation before, that Harry Kane is the best number nine the Premier League's ever seen? He's definitely up there. I love Harry, I think, as a goal squad.

14:08He's evolved this game over the last few years as well, which obviously we've all seen. And in dropping deep, he's got a good range of pass. He can shoot from outside the box as well. I think that's been part of where England have done really well. I think in the last Euros, for instance, when you watch the Euros World Cup, last one. I saw them, what was it? Euros. Euros in the last Euros. You had Harry coming in, you had Bellingham, Foden coming in, and they were taking up everyone's space. So I think as a team, as a player, Harry should, in my opinion, recognise that and say, no, I'm going to go and stay up top, which at times you have to do.

14:48But in terms of, if Harry stayed in the Premier League, he'd break Shearer's record. He'd break Shearer's record, for sure. Also, if he played for United, he would be considered... He still can, he still should. Well, right. But what I'm saying is, if Spurs hadn't hamstrung his career in such a significant way... Yeah, no, unfortunately. He's definitely... It's a tough one. In terms of Premier League history, obviously you've got Shearer. He's an incredible, incredible goal scorer. I think a lot of his goals, Shearer as well, was in his 30s as well, was there? Yeah, yeah. Then you're I always say Drogba's up there As an out and out nine You've got Obviously Andy Cole Michael Owen In that period Was incredible I think for sustainability And goal scored Harry is definitely up there And I mean You could class Henri As a number nine If you like And you can bring him Into this conversation No but you're talking about Like someone straight He doesn't You know Shearer Drogba Kane Aguero Henri sort of moved about that a little bit like Wayne in some ways I think the best nines for me the best nines are ones who players can play off so that's why I've obviously I've said Drogba a few times I think Drogba is a player you could easily play off I think Harry at his best is always as a lone forward his whole career pretty good as a number nine but it's difficult to have that player to play off Harry so I'd say Drogba just ahead of him from that point of view but in the Premier League but he's incredible as a goal scorer he's right up there and I wouldn't disagree if people are saying Harry Kane's the no one says it that's my problem the best yeah no one you said Harry Kane did you say he was England's greatest I think he's England's greatest striker just in fact the goals he scored firstly but then you look at the games he's played the goals he scored But you just hope he's probably got one tournament left in him.

16:55You hope he can push us now to that next level.

17:03It's time for our new game on the winning track. Brought to you by Trainline. Their best price guarantee means you won't find cheaper same-day train tickets anywhere else. And even if you do, Trainline will fund the difference. Exclusions and conditions apply. search best price guarantee on trainline.com. Right, here's how the game's going to go.

17:29Right then, our fans will compete against each other to identify a mystery footballer here on our Trainline board. The only clues they will receive are the teams that a mystery player appeared for from the start of their career to the finish. First team appearances only, loans don't count, the winning team will receive a train line voucher that will come in handy on the next away day. But there is a catch. If you guess and you are wrong, you are out of that round. OK? And to answer, you need to shout your name and raise your hand. Baz, I'm looking at you. OK. No, you just like shouting out, don't you?

18:04No, I'm the only one who puts me hand on. You're just shouting out. If needed, here's an example. So let's look at the board. OK? So that's... Come on, what was it? Man United. Man United. United, Arsenal, Watford, Brighton. Yeah. Who do you think it is? I don't know. You played with him. It's on the back there, isn't it? You played with him? Yeah. Yeah, I'll go on. Who do you think it could be? So, started at Man United as a kid. Oh, Welbeck. Yeah, Danny Welbeck. So, that's the example anyway. Okay. It's the best of three. Right, Baz v. Adam. All right. Player one. Be quick, there's only three teams here.

18:43Or the other side This way? Yeah, way there I live by there for fucking LAUGHTER

18:53Come on, are you? Who's that? Exeter Exeter I was going to lose badges I'm going Go on Ollie Watkins Brilliant, Baz Brilliant I'm all of a nerd Legend Hey, even if you come I'm all right, I've got one even if you beat me two we're alright now we've got better than Greg I'll just do what you did at least you tried mystery player two Adam you've got to get this one it's game over isn't it and Baz is good at this game first team first team please Wayne I have no idea it's Andy I mean it could be anyone could be no one know it could be anyone Darren Bent Darren Bent oh that was sharp

19:43I knew if it was Charlton, that's where I was going. Right. Ooh. OK. First team, Wayne. I'd say around here. Blackburn around there, yeah? Blackburn, yeah. Yeah. A bit more. And a bit more, yeah, yeah.

20:04Ooh, I was about to just jump out and get that totally... I, I, I... He went the other way, didn't he? Yeah, I was going to go the same one. Tim Flavis, I was going the wrong way. Both of you be ready, because as soon as this team comes in, one of you's is going to know it. I've got black man sometimes. Who's that? Everton? Everton? Oh, Bas. Oh, yeah. Oh, alright! Put the next one in a little throw. Oh my God, I've got a blank. Pressure. Yeah, yeah. Sheffield United. That throws me Who is it? Jeff United Damn I can't believe his next team is well after this What's going on here mate I've gone here Oh Midland East Midlands are still there Stoke I'm near Stoke Yeah I thought you'd get after the first If it was me I'd just concentrate on the first three because this is through me OK Who the fuck's got me Who's a Devon buying from Southampton I'm trying to think You'd have had I said it wouldn't I Go and throw This would be a good one just for the board.

21:07I am. Rangers. I think, is this the line there? Yeah, the line, yeah. Is that the line? No. He was about to go in Ireland then. Is it more here? Rangers, Glasgow. I fucking know where that one is. He's gone to Rangers after Sheffield United. Yeah, I don't know what time I'm not getting on this. He's a centre forward. OK, James Beatty. Yes. Well done, guys.

21:37Brilliant, Baz. You one, two, one.

21:45Another game next week. Thanks to Trainline. Remember to download the Trainline app and search best price guarantee on trainline.com.

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24:03Gareth, have you got a question for Wayne? Yeah, my one for Wayne was, I just wondered, you know, the way you played, that sort of, the fire in your belly, the fight, an almost scouse way, I would say. But then also when you got in front of goal, you were calm, you were collected, you know, you weren't flustered by what was going on around you. how much of that was just in you and how much was coached? I was never a natural goal scorer a lot of my goals would be more instinctive and shots from the edge of the box or first-time finishes and what I had to learn so I couldn't head the ball I was actually alright if the keeper kicked in and competing with centre-backs and trying to win flick-ons but in the box I could never score ahead of goals and then so I went, it was McFelan, actually United, and I pulled him and said, I can't score a header.

24:58My timing was never great when the ball came to the box and I worked on it for about eight months, constantly working on it after training. You see where players, you see it all the time, a practising shooter from 30 yards, constantly, you've got a centre-back coming in, you're like, what are you doing? Instead of working on what, full-back should be working on, crossing the ball or playing the ball into four minutes. So I worked on me heading for about eight months and then I went on a run of just scoring I think like 15 goals in a row with me head before I scored with my feet. So putting that work in really helps.

25:32I used to watch my teammates. The first one was Ruvan Nistroi when I signed for United watching him. So then I'd get the ball in the box and I'd be like a bit rushed and then watching how much time he'd give himself and then Oli Gunnar Solskjaer as well. So I'd watch them and be practising, ask them questions, which seems to be gone now with players who don't speak to each other and ask them questions, why would you do this? So that was a massive help and understanding you've actually got more time in the penalty here to compose yourself which sometimes of course you don't but there's a lot of time you've got that time to take your touch and you know where the goal is you don't need to look where the goal is and then focusing on getting your shot right a lot of players trying to smash it as hard as they can and we're actually passing the ball into the net gives you a better opportunity of scoring And were you able to take that into being a manager as well?

26:22You try it. You try it with forwards and you see players snatch a lot of opportunities and then if a ball gets pulled across, they try and smash it as hard as they can. I always put it to golf if anyone plays golf. When you're playing golf, if you stand over the ball with your driver and you try and hit it as hard as you can, more often than not, you're going to slice it or pull it. Whereas actually you just focus on getting a good connection, take a little bit off it. you'll probably be a bit more accurate with it it's very similar to when you're in front of goal if you try and smash it it's hard to put it where you want to put it because you lose a bit of your your what's it called you lose your accuracy from doing it so taking a little bit off it it might only be 10 % you take off it you get it into the corners where you want to and make it more difficult for keepers so there's loads of analogies and loads of things of how you you try and tell your players to but that's certainly what I'd done when I was younger and all of a sudden my finishing went from here to there so it's definitely worth working on that for young players Your manager's head on he's just actually been a manager if you were picking almost like the perfect team and you wanted one centre forward from the Premier League who's playing right now what centre forwards would you want on your team?

27:44Highland as good as he's I think Ireland he's got everything actually he's not the best at heading the ball that's the one downfall he's got with his size and I think what I was saying before his timing's off a little bit you can see that he gets up two earlier times and he's on his way down when he's heading the ball but I think he's even this season the goals he's scored with the injuries he's had he'd be the one I'd want Luke you got a question yeah probably for you what was it like playing against him because I remember just as a City fan he was so annoying I remember Tevez had a penalty and you watched that post or whatever a few things that kind of stick out what was he like when did he first play against him I remember the first time you played against us you come on as a sub for Everton I think I was playing full back at the time I think the game finished nil-nil but you came on and hit the bar at the Anfield Road and Chris Kirkland it was in goal he took my hip out I went through one-on-one Kirkland come out and hit me honestly after the game I couldn't walk but it happened with him as well so I'd gone through Kirkland whacked me took me out and then at Anfield I'm thinking there's no way I can stay on the floor got up finished the game and I couldn't walk but then he caught me as well it was a straight red card it was was it given I've looked down I've got blood pouring all around my leg so I've got up I'm trying to carry on and the referee stopped the game the physio's come on he's like listen you've got a big gash you need to get it stitched up you need to come off so I went in to the dressing room so then I was in there about five minutes and then Scolzi's walked in so we'd been sent off so I'm in there the doctor's stitching me up and then halfway through stitching me up we had a row so we think fuck we're either 1-0 down or we've nicked her at the end she had ten men so we've gone out so I've gone out with my leg half stitched up still blood pouring down and then it was when John O'Shea scored last minute it's a spin in his fault he's done a feud he's done Nanny that was a bad one as well oh yeah he said to me he's crying he's crying I went home Nanny's on the floor it was a bad tackle to be fair it was a red card should have been and then he talks away by being made to the refs and stuff and then I've gone up to and I've looked over Nanny's in full tears crying and the scouse and me come out and I've gone up to him and went fuck it at least crying I was thinking no but listen he was at A I said I asked Wayne before is there a player like you and there isn't because I I always think of you of Harry Kane had it a little bit what I mean is how many attacking players can play two roles you could play as the out and out centre forward and then you could play as the number 10 Harry Kane did that a little bit before my time and arguably be Liverpool's greatest player alongside Steve Kenny Daglish and that was he could actually be the centre forward when he first came to Liverpool and then when Ian Rush comes he's almost like the number 10 and I don't think there's many you know you're mentioning Drogba and Alan Shear these are all amazing players Bayer Camzola Canton as well they've got their role if you know what I mean and they're brilliant at it but you but I think that's a problem in today's game that there's that much there for players to see you can give them everything like we'd like for instance when we're doing a team meeting you're watching you know five, six games of your opposition you break it down and put it into like an eight minute video of the players then you send them clips of the opposition who they're playing against from their position there's that much stuff for players to have but they don't study they don't look at it they don't study it so I knew I was going to go and play my field when I got a bit older or playing out wide so I'd study that role and what I needed for that certain role and there's a big chance to join the game with 1-0 up that I'm going to get put to the left and Ronaldo get put up top because I'd run back more so I had to study actually that role and what it meant positionally if the ball's on the other side where do you have to be tucking in the other side and stuff like that where I think a lot of players just don't they'll watch YouTube and watch all skills and stuff instead of actually studying the role and what they're good at what they're not good at what they need to work on I see it all the time and sports science has a big role as well after saying and you've seen it, you're out on the training pitch, working on stuff.

32:15Now the sport science, like, oh, you need to go in, you've done this in the weekend, you're in the red zone and all that crap and you're like, what harm are they doing? They're worried about getting injured and stuff and it's crazy now, it's complete different to what it was. Anyone else? Gareth, have you got a question for me? Yeah, a question for you is just sort of who you found it most difficult against as a striker and then also obviously the longevity of your career. When you played against them once, maybe struggled against them, what did you do for the next time you played them as well?

32:49I mean, I always say Thierry Henry, but Thierry Henry was a problem if you were a right-back, not so much as a centre-back as such really. It was more, and it wasn't just Thierry, it was the whole Arsenal left side, that was the big problem. In terms of centre-forward, it's funny because I always say you mentioned Drogba so he comes to mind people always say oh Drogba but the best games I ever had for Liverpool were against Drogba you know so it was almost like so it's hard to say oh no I got the better of him because he got the better of me sometimes but I got the better of him sometimes because we played against each other that much I played Chelsea obviously not always against Drogba I played Chelsea 47 times in my career because of all like the Champions League game so it felt like you'd be playing four times a season at least sometimes six and it was always that Mourinho Benitez time where all the games finished nil-nil or one-nil so it wasn't like you were getting taken to the cleaners and it was 3-2 or 3-3 or it was like if you made a mistake the game was over you know that's how strong those teams were defensively so even though I'd probably say Drogba in a way but I still if I picture myself playing well for Liverpool I'm thinking semi-finals in the Champions League against Drogba and against Chelsea but listen and he still does unbelievable I always remember that volley he scored at Stamford Bridge where it's like he just took it on his chest and bang goal and you're a bit like you don't know what else you're supposed to do really in some way so I enjoyed playing against when we had some brilliant battles so I'd probably I'd probably say him yeah what was it like would Rafa pull you in and say okay so today you know in that game there maybe you could have done were you learning every time you played I tell you what what was it the reason I played at the top level was because I had a very, very good understanding of the game and I was passionate.

34:38I wasn't amazing at anything. I wasn't lightning quick. I wasn't technically unbelievable. I wasn't like a John Terry or a Saul Campbell, like really powerful. But I had my wits about me and I could understand the game, where it needs to be and what it needs to do and, you know, that type of thing. And I wouldn't need someone to tell me how to handle Drogba. I knew how to handle Drogba in that, even though I was an aggressive player, don't be overly aggressive with him because sometimes Drogba could have games where he wasn't there but when he was there he was unplayable he was like you know that he'd be like don't wind him up don't go into a silly tackle after both days we won you've got to win it but don't be going looking don't go looking for trouble with Drogba because he'll give you it talk to him through the game I used to talk to him it was almost because it almost felt like I was his teammate because we played each other that much it's almost like you knew him do you know what I mean So sometimes when you play against one of your own players, because you play against them every day in training, say you play against them international or something, you know what they're going to do a little bit and they know what you're going to do.

35:44And it was like that a little bit with Drogba. So I used to always go, you know, almost to talk to and chat to and that. But I remember there was one semi-final, he took us to cleaners. We beat them. But it was against Daniel. Daniel had just got into the team about 2007, just taken over Sammy. And he was only 21. wasn't as physically strong as he became and I think Drogba went on him down that line was making runs and gave him a tough time and there was a lot of talk about Daniel Agui being dropped for the second leg in the press and he actually got the winner that got us the penalty so we lost the first one 1-0 through 1-1 so I remember not like I was telling Daniel not like that but I remember me and Rafa talking to Daniel about you know like not letting it get in your head basically and how to keep them, you know, don't speak to them, don't wind them up, you know, stuff like that.

36:35So it wasn't so much me, but I remember that because of how good Drogba was in the first leg, yeah. What did you say to him? You said you'd talk to him. Good morning. No, I mean, I'm not saying you're chatting about the game as going, but you might have a, like, say something's happened in the pitch or, like, a little, you might just, you're not, like, you're not, like... You're not that good. No, I'm not winding him up. No, I'm talking about, like, anything. You know, you're not basically winding him up or looking for trouble or leaving one on him. If something come up, you've got to have a laugh at a joke or something more.

37:09Or can I have one of his players? Someone's fell off. You'd go out your way to make sure he's just like, he's smiling. If Drogba was smiling and happy in a game, you were all right. Once he turned or something happened, it was like, I thought he was pretty unplayable. So Nemanja Vidic was an incredible centre-back. so before we played Chelsea for two days before Vido would be in the gym building himself up and trying to you know this is where things were in his head and we used to say to him relax a little bit and then when we played Liverpool he'd be out working on his quick feet because Torres running in the yard so for certain individuals he'd be put next to work and he liked it you don't need to you're strong enough but then that was something which that was part of his routine which which he do but I always think the forward would do it unplayable a forward would run behind Mike Lowen for a two or three year period was unplayable and Nelka when he was doing it was unplayable they're the forwards which defenders hate with you know if you're making them run back towards their own goal and running behind that's what Harland does it quite a bit now not as much as it used to be but no one runs in behind anymore wingers you always remember Overmars coming to the ball and spinning players don't do that no more and that's what where the game's different everything's defeating and it's passing back round where before anything in behind would kill defenders and even if it's you know the pass isn't great you're still going competing and you might win a throw-in high up the pitch that's the difference now with 10 forwards because you know I could play in today's game as a number nine and get the ball and lay it off and think on but what you need now is forwards running behind I think that's that is unplayable if you get someone who does that Andy Cole used to do it maybe not as quick as Mike Lowenbohr, his time of his runs, that's, they're the forward now, which are completely gone, I think.

39:02Well, high line, so common, probably. It's high line, people play high line, no one runs in behind. Yeah, I wouldn't have killed him. It's crazy, yeah.

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40:52Adam, have you got a question? It kind of got answered earlier when Wayne shifted up top after Ronaldo left in 08, 09. You kind of answered it saying that you didn't enjoy playing in that position. So I won't ask you that, but did that kind of cause issues for you then in terms of the manager wants you to do X and you want to do Y? Did that cause any issues? No, I had no issues. I wanted to be on the pitch or play wherever, and that's why I tried to understand all positions really. and I had it I was at United for 13 years and the amount of forwards we brought in and you know players can get disheartened by that and think can I at least come and take my place but I used to have that in time and say okay I'm going to compete with you and there's times like when Van Persie come in I knew I was going to play deeper I knew he was the number nine he was going to be the number nine so I started watching Fabregas and Van Persie for Arsenal their relationship because I knew that I'd be playing that Fabregas role so you understand that but when I started playing as that nine I had no issues with it I just didn't enjoy it as much and I was scoring goals every week but I wanted more sometimes you have your lineakers and players who just want to score goals and they come alive in the six yard box or whatever I wanted to go and get the ball off full backs and switch the play and play through balls and stuff and just be involved I want to enjoy football I wanted to play football With that being said then are you glad you came up in that era because players like yourself now they almost have that rawness coached out of them now Yeah it's all positional are you kind of glad you come up in the era Yeah 100 % and the game now is very much positional and like we can talk about full backs coming inside and so I think like for instance with United now the creative players are coming back and the wing backs are going higher where the attacking players are lower than the defensive players now if you've got good attacking players you want them like Bruno's done really well in midfield but I want to see Bruno higher I want to see him in the round and penalty area where he can shoot and create so you're ending up with so many defenders up the pitch and then your midfield players who are good attacking players filling in and filling in the full back spots and stuff it's in some ways it's okay if you've got the personnel but every team's doing it now where I think it's a little bit too much Greg, you've got a couple of questions or one?

43:27Yeah I suppose it's in your punditry roles but is there a better example of a player well, of a manager getting the best attributes out of a player than Chris would you know, we were mocked spending £15 million on him and he's on for a 20-goal season so Yeah, but I think I'm surprised I think I'd be lying if I said they weren't surprised by the season he'd done well towards the end of last season yeah he did when he took over from Ty I think the way Nottingham Forest play suits Chris Wood perfectly because I think if you put Chris Wood in a different team who plays slightly different I don't think that suits him and the Wad and Lange the Wad players and the attacking players on transition so he's there as a bounce really and being a big present and then obviously the Forrest are one of the teams who do put the ball in the box and that's one of his attributes as well so I think that Forrest team really suits Chris Wood and sometimes you find a team which suits you where the style of play the environment everything really suits you and I think that's exactly what Chris Wood has found in Nottingham Forrest Libby Yeah I'm really interested in the psychology of scoring goals because obviously you've all got amazing technical ability, but can you learn that, like making the right decision under pressure in a match situation, having the confidence to do that?

44:55Can you train that? Yeah, obviously your mind, your brain, and that's why you practice on the training pitch. Your practice will become second nature. So when you're in a position to finish, you know what finish you're going to make. Regardless, sometimes a lot of the time you don't need to look at the goalkeeper. If you go through 1v1, of course, you need to be aware where the goalkeeper is. Do you go round him? Do you dink him? Do you slide at one side? That's a different skill, if you like. But when you're in the penalty area, you should have been there that many times in training. Your brain doesn't have to think.

45:38It knows it recognises it. It just happens automatically. So that's the importance. in any sport if you I don't play cricket I hate cricket actually but if you're playing cricket the difference in how someone bowls you'll be used to whether it's a spin or a fastball and same with boxing if someone you study them someone throws a punch in a certain way you know how to move out the way and whatever so with any sport the same with football you understand what you need to do in that moment in time you know when you're talking about that moment I'm thinking of the other end of the pitch of you're about to finish does everything slow down I think of when I was defending and I was trying to make a block or it looked like someone was going to score and I was coming across and thinking I'd almost say a few seconds before thinking I can get there I know by the time his foot's about to shoot my foot will be in front of his and it'd almost slow down for me like having to just be like almost in slow motion and I'd be aware right near to every foot there now and I know watch back the video it's like one second but when you're in front of a goal and it obviously happens then quickly but when you've got that composure in front of a goal Yeah you know what's going through your mind It feels like yeah and it feels like you've you've got that much time and I think when you if you know where you're putting in you know what you're doing like for instance if I'm going towards the if the goal's there and I'm going this way and I'm about to shoot I know you're coming across I know you're going to put your foot out so I know the only way I can score is through your legs going back across the goalkeeper so I'm actually waiting for you to get a bit closer to do that because then the keeper is views blocked so you know that certain players or you know with Van Dijk he very rarely dives in so he'll probably get there and stay on his feet a little bit so you know JT used to dive in a lot Chelsea's back line actually if you go through they go to the goal they go beyond past the goalkeeper so you knew if you go to shoot on a cutback the midfield players are free all the time so there's loads of different scenarios of the opposition but you know what defenders are going to do so you've got that in your head going into a game so in that second you're saying you know I'm going to dive in so if it's me trying to block a shot you might be thinking go through the legs if you're at Chelsea in a tight angle you can pull it back so going into a game those scenarios are playing out in your mind right about me.

48:11So if I'm on a tight angle, if I'm on a tight angle and you're coming across, if I shoot too early, I'm going to shoot as your foot's just getting there and you're blocking. So if I just wait that split second, you'll get, might be one inch further where your leg's gone past a little bit and it goes to your leg. So that's a real skill which I think top players, they have that understanding where you know just to delay it by not even half a second. but it's them little fine details which separate players in the Championship or even lower league, Premier League players to the top players. It's them details which make such a big difference.

48:52You see how much, in my opinion, the best ever in Messi. You see how much time he seems to have in the penalty area. It's because he knows exactly what he's doing. He's not committing to something because it's there. He knows what he's doing and why he's doing it. So I think them little details are a massive fair any player. Dave? Yeah, I mean, you mentioned it, Wayne, in terms of roles and stuff like that for yourself. I suppose, Carrie, you could answer as well. In terms of playing in a two or defending against a two, did either of you have a preference? I mean, you said you'd like to get involved a little bit more.

49:26But, Jamie, in terms of defending, did you always think it was a little bit easier to defend against a lone striker and you could pass it on to the other defender? Or was it a bit easier with the two because you can almost dedicate yourself to a specific player I mean I hear this a lot where I hear centre-backs talk and say in my day that we played against the front two the only player with a front one now I just think it's a bit too simplistic to say that it's like okay we're up against two but normally if teams play with two strikers the wide players are narrow midfield players so it's not like so basically you've almost at times it's 2v you're back 4 whereas if it's a 3 4-3-3 you've got your too wide, players making runs in behind you.

50:07So it's not this like, oh, yes, it was easy. We just had to look after one. Now, don't get me wrong. There is a little bit of that sometimes. You know, if it's a long ball team, every time there's a flick on, if you lose your mind, you could lose it. But there's lots of different things with different formations. It's not just a case of two up front, one up front. It has a knock-on effect. So if the opposition only have one up front, or let's say they have two up front, then midfield players will be wide at times, but they won't be on the last line all the time normally. They might be, but then that leaves them open in midfield space normally the two centre midfield players would never really go forward that much they'd be more like two sitting midfield players I think with two up front now you lose a man on the top line so the way teams play now normally in build up they go with a 3-2-5 or a 2-3-5 what Ange does a lot 2-3-5 so what you end up having is you're number 9 here then you've got two number 10s and you're sometimes full backs or wide players so there's a front 5 now a lot of teams end up static but for defenders if you get your two number 10s playing in behind midfield but not up against them then for the centre backs it's very difficult from that point of view so with two forwards you end up with the two wide players and you actually lose a player but you end up with an extra player in midfield or at the back if you want to be secure so that's how the game has changed it's easier to press with the two City do a lot with Ireland and De Bruyne De Bruyne will press out so I always think with two forwards you can force them to one side and then go and lock them in that side with one you're letting them have the ball and go around the back so it's in possession shape and out possession shape which normally a lot of teams are doing very similar Yeah so I think both systems give you a different problem and you think of the first 4-3-3 team in the league really that stood out was Chelsea wasn't it that was the first team that really went to that and then you think okay oh great me and Sammy if you only got a look after Drogba but then you've got Robin and Duff you've got Frank Lampard running there Frank Lampard scored a goal against us in the Charity Shield in 2006 we've got a striker there Frank Lampard I think no Frank played the ball for someone making a run there so there's lots of different things do you know what I mean so if I was playing against Chelsea and Drogba's gone with Sammy I'm not like thinking oh this is easy I've got a cigar I'm thinking oh where's Frank Lampard probably got more to worry about if anything because you don't because the wing are going to be cool Yeah, so it's different, really.

52:35You know, different systems give you, you know, different problems.

52:45Baz, you got a question? Yeah, just about when you were, obviously, the head coach or whatever and how you scout players. I mean, what is it? Is it data? Is it... How does that sort of process work? The last one at Plymouth was basically all data.

53:05which is good in certain ways, but in other ways, my big question, which I had on it, was, you know, the data can give you an outline of a player, but what's the player's character? So you can do background checks on that, and, you know, what's he going to be like if you lose a couple of games? So all that, the data doesn't give you, but it gives you an outline, so it literally gives you the top for your budget, the top 10 players what you've got for that budget and if they're available or not then I'd look at them all and you'd say I fancy this one for if it was better or whatever and then at other clubs DC United for instance was all the club that's a completely different system altogether there's players getting traded left right and tenter and you're not really involved in that to be honest the two I was involved in was Matty Click and Ben Teke other than that you're not really involved in it at Derby we didn't have had no money and then at Birmingham I didn't get the opportunity it's interesting so when I signed when I joined Birmingham they brought me in and said this is how we want to play so I presented done the presentation to them and this is how we want we want to play this is exactly what they wanted to do to move forward as a team so after two games I said to them they can't play they can't do it I want to I want to adjust and adapt to try and get results that's what I was saying before I need to get results the way the game is and then the message I got was no keep doing it and then in January we'll get your players in who can and I got sacked on January the 1st what's the ideal for you what would be the ideal way to do it then do you think I think it's a collective because as a manager I heard my test as a manager you've got that much work to do with your team and your squad and preparation and everything you've got on your games coming up in the background you need a really good recruitment team I've said about United I think that has to be better especially this period where United are so you need a really good recruitment team who can identify the players who will fit the club and fit you know the culture of the football club and the ages and you know budget wise can completely fit into what you just want and then once they go through all that process then the manager is going to meet the player and sometimes you can meet the player and walk away and say he's not for me or you meet a player and you maybe have a doubt but you can see that personality in a player which having them characters in your team are really important as well.

55:58So the process, the manager really should be the last one really to come in and try and convince the player to come to the club and especially now with all sporting directors and technical directors, that's their job. Their job is they know exactly, or you go in, the club might want you to play a certain way or they know exactly what way you're playing. You should have the best people then to go and identify the best players for that role, that position. Do you agree with first pick, last pick then for the manager? Like first call, we need a centre-forward rather than come on. Yeah, and I think that happens at Plymouth.

56:35For instance, before we got to January, I'd say, I really need the left-back. That's a priority. We need the left-back, we need the striker. And then you prioritise positionally what you need. All right, we're going to finish with a community question. And this is from Simon from Essex.

56:57Wayne out of all the players you played with which did you think were going to make the best managers to be fair I thought you would have why shit yourself and went to Punditri crap question

57:15that's Simon from Essex so go on why did you think I would I thought your knowledge well your knowledge is is so was this when when we were players yeah we'd go to England and you knew everything about football I think we all have a general knowledge of football but it was incredible going back 10, 20, 30, 40 years and stuff so I always thought you would go into there's some I didn't see Frank or Stevie I'm sure a lot of people didn't see me going into management I always thought you would be I thought Michael Carrick as well would that was probably the only two really yeah yeah I mean I I think I'm a massive football fan I don't think that necessarily means that it makes you a good manager what you're talking about is like I remember games and players and you know I used to always read football magazines and always be I think I was obsessed with football but I don't think that necessarily means I would have been a I mean probably managers do have an obsession with the game it's probably a good staff for them is it in some ways but I'm glad I never do you ever get any offers no no I always remember you saying years ago about Sammy Lee I always remember you saying you couldn't deal with the way you spoke to Sammy or you seen players speaking to Sammy Lee that you couldn't deal with players going back at you well what that is is that's like the not so much Sammy as a coach but like there's always someone who has to be the referee whatever session you do always has to finish with a game eight to side doesn't it all the lads want a game and there's always someone who's got a referee and you've seen people slaughtered and he's won two European Cups in Liverpool and play oh yeah they're a fucking decision and I'm thinking if a player said that to me they'd be fucking you think do you think players are more difficult to control now as a manager than let's say 15-20 years ago or about the same what do you think he's not about cooing you here no I mean in general because like Sir Alex probably had an aura that everyone just I would imagine, but I don't know.

59:24Players now, it's night and day to what it was. So, for instance, the amount of, well, I've got to say, the amount of arguments I've had with manager, coaches on the training pitch. But you go on that pitch and you give everything for the team. And I suppose back in my day, certainly before my day, the big thing for managers and coaches was, you know, stopping the players from going out on the piss or whatever. And the manager.

1:00:00But nowadays, you know, I'm obviously about to name names, but I've had to speak to players about the amount of time to spend on the PlayStation. And I'm sleeping at the right times because they're up till four or five o 'clock in the morning on PlayStation, not going out where, you know, and then turning up entertaining you can see and then there's players taking different supplements which are not helping them so it's it's so different now you come across any players that sleep with their hair dryers on as well or is that is that just you so I burnt hair nearly blew myself up in DC

1:00:43there's a lot of people who do that you know have a look look it up there's a lot of people who do it what is it for heat or noise or both no so I like the cold beer so if you've got a fan next to your bed which a lot of people will do as well not in England you won't oh no so the hairdryer is just a glorified fan basically it's a bit stronger it blows cold air on you oh and and yeah so yeah definitely what a way to fit when I was going to the order We go to the European Games with United just before I'd had a hair transplant, so I had no hair. So we're travelling to Europe and we got searched, my bag got searched, and I can all remember there was two fellas, they're looking at me, and they just pulled this hair dryer out and they're looking at me like, what the fuck have you done?

1:01:33I have had a few funny looks. Well, listen, that's a brilliant way to end the episode. Thank you for joining us on the Fan Debate brought to you by Skybet. Thank you.

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