The Cost of Loyalty & Another Club At Risk Of Charges? | Price of Football Fan Debate

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2:02You talk about people wanting to take the kids with them, but if you take one kid, you look at£120. Do the owners actually understand the game? The minute we allow that to happen, next season it'll be my season ticket. I think extra time should be out of football. I think exercise board. The semi-finals are at Wembley still? Yeah, that's a little bit. I hate that. I do think it's quite a Premier League-centric view to remove replays because it doesn't benefit Premier League clubs whatsoever. There's one club in particular in the Premier League who is at high risk of a charge from the Premier League.

2:34I'll be honest, I can take or leave Anthony being at Manchester United if it means ticket prices stay the same. If Manchester City are found guilty, the whole board of directors has to resign.

2:47Hello and welcome to the Fan Debate brought to you by Skybet. And this week we are joined by football finance expert Keir McGuire who's going to give us the full lowdown on basically where we are financially in football right now. So off you go. Go, go on. Enlighten us. I mean, there's been a lot of talk certainly on this show in the last couple of years as well and, you know, different things that we're all involved in. You know, PSR, teams getting punch deductions. Is it fair? Is it not? Who's sailing close to the wind? I mean, can you just give us a gauge of where we are right now? Well, if you take a look at the Premier League, 19 clubs out of 20 are actually losing money and having to rely on player sales and having to rely on selling other things and having to rely on being subsidised by the owners.

3:35The only club that's making a profit is West Ham and that's because they're being subsidised by the government because everybody in this room is paying for that stadium. So it's a really tough industry. I think the challenge for football is that the TV money is going up slowly. It's not going up as fast as it was before. The commercial money is difficult to get hold of, especially if you're not one of the big clubs. and therefore what we've seen, especially in the last couple of seasons, is a switch to trying to get more money out of the fans in terms of merchandise, ticket prices and any way that they can do.

4:07And that's because football is an expensive business. Everybody in this room wants their club to spend more money recruiting players and keeping the best talent. So that's the challenge for the industry. And that's also reflected as you go further and further down the leagues. The average losses in the championship are£400 ,000 a week because everybody wants to get to the promised land of the Premier League. What we're seeing now in League One, the average losses are probably around about£6 million a year because there's a big step up between League One and the Championship. And how do you do it?

4:35You recruit the best players and you spend the most amount of money. When you talk about everyone in this room wanting their teams to go out and buy players, that's every football fan. But with the numbers that we're talking about in terms of what the TV companies pay, sponsorship deals, all this type of thing. Does raising ticket prices actually move the needle that much in terms of a football club bringing in a striker for 40, 50 million? Well, it doesn't. If you take a look at the two clubs which generate the most money from ticket sales, that's Manchester United and Spurs, they're still making£100 million a year plus from ticket sales.

5:19If you can increase that by 20%, you go from 100 to 120, that does mean that potentially you can recruit another player. And also, if you take a look at buying a player, if you sign a player for£50 million on a five-year contract, it's costing you£10 million a year, effectively, because you say you're renting the player. That's the way the accountants do it. So an extra£20 million coming in and you've got£10 million going out a year for that£50 million signing, it does make sense. The trouble is that football clubs, in my view, their success has been built on previous generations, sort of the older fans who are now, they've served their useful purpose.

6:01Those people who are on the copper in the Stratford End 20, 30, 40 years ago, those guys who are in the shed, they're now in their 50s and 60s. And they're not spending as much money as somebody who will come in. football clubs are now tourist attractions and that's not the criticism of the club and it's not the criticism of the fans who are coming from all over the world to watch watch these amazing institutions but the tourists have got more money so what we're seeing is the clubs are slowly trying to squeeze people out reduce the number of season ticket holders take away concessions for kids make it more difficult if you're a senior fan everything is going in that one direction and the reason for that is we've got so many American owners that they say, well, I was looking at Forbes earlier.

6:44They said the average ticket price for a Steelers match is$601 for a single match ticket. That's the average ticket price. That's what, 450, 470 quid. And as an away fan, I'm going to matches and I'm paying 30. The owners just can't comprehend what football is in this country. Scoles, you're a football club, not at the level of, you know, obviously Premier League clubs but how important is it or how many discussions do you have about getting ticket and prices right or has that come up a lot? Not so much later, I think right from the start of doing it we always wanted it to be affordable, now look it's not on the level of these Premier League clubs, we know that but we know Salford isn't the wealthiest of areas in and around Manchester as we'll We'll see with Man United with their ticket prices.

7:38There's some very deprived areas. So we try and make it as affordable as we possibly can. I think our season ticket is 250 quid. It works out£10 something per game, which I think is pretty good. There's still teams in our league who will charge 20, 25 quid to go and watch them. I think for kids it's something like 80 quid, £3 something a game from 13-year-olds and below. So I think it's a big part of what we're trying to do. And we could all add money onto it to make money and to make our finances better and losses not as much as they should be. But we choose to allow fans the chance to come and watch.

8:21OK, it's League Two, but I still think people will enjoy it. Gareth, I know some of the work that you're doing, certainly not just about Liverpool, but about other fans in general. Can you just explain a little bit more what you're trying to get behind? Yeah, so I'm a member of Spirit of Shankly and then above Spirit of Shankly you've got the Football Supporters Association. So the FSA this season has got a campaign called Stop Exploiting Loyalty. So fans of every Premier League club have been coming together, holding up banners inside the grounds, outside the grounds and just highlighting it with the media as well that it feels like at every turn now our loyalty is being exploited.

9:01and there are a million and one examples of why Kieran will know them well and he talks about them all the time on his podcast. I mean, one I looked up before I came in today, look at Bayer Leverkusen, right? So they're a good team, I think everyone would say that. They've got a good manager, they play good football, they won the league last season, they're in the Champions League now, they got to a European final last season. It's£174 for a season ticket. It's£80-odd for a kid to get in there with a season ticket. it's£13 to get in for one game. You're not getting in Liverpool, Everton, Man United, whatever for that kind of money.

9:37And so my question is why? Like I don't understand why the clubs can't realise that they're potentially spoiling a cultural asset of theirs in the Kop, in the Gallagate, in the Stratford and whatever it might be. Because slowly but surely, as Kieran said, you're pricing people out and you're getting different people in there. And, you know, I got pelters over the weekend because I took a picture when I was in the Cop weekend off the Anfield Road. 47th minute, Liverpool scored a goal after people in the Anfield Road went back and everyone was going, well, that's a corporate area and people are paying 400 and 500 quid for those tickets that you can see there.

10:15And I'm like, OK, don't they want to watch the football? Don't they want to support the team? Don't they want to sing and shout? Don't they want to be passionate? Don't they want to have banners and flags? And the answer might be no, and that's fine, OK. But in the Cop, we do. So don't you want to save the cop? Don't you want to keep the cop? Don't you want that to remain affordable? And I don't know why they can't collectively agree, maybe this is a question for Keir on, can't they collectively agree, like they did about away tickets where it's£30, which you mentioned, collectively agree to ring fence general admission and concessions right across the league and just say, we won't compete over that anymore.

10:52We'll compete over absolutely everything else, corporates sponsorships whatever else fine but let's let's respect our cultural asset and the people that make that a cultural asset and keep it affordable Kean what do you think about that I agree entirely but the finance people will say you still want to sign that 50 million pound player and if we do that we can't afford it we're going to break PSR and PSR has now become the big pantomime villain in football is that an easy excuse for clubs going you know the finance is better and the actual numbers behind this and what this money will bring in ticket price wise.

11:29When I had people I think it was Aston Villa when they had the Champions League ticket about 70-80 quid and it was this oh but we've got to compete with these teams within the Champions League I just thought that was nonsense. Is it nonsense? For an individual match I mean that was the Villa match against Bayern I think it was 97 for an individual ticket. If I was a Villa fan who's been supporting the club for the last 30 years I'd pay it because it's Villa and it's against Bayern, but you're feeling cheated because it's all of the hard work that you've put in when Villa weren't in the top division, when you're going to a Tuesday night match in the championship and you're still supporting your team.

12:06I think fans deserve a bit of appreciation. We all saw during COVID that it wasn't football, was it? You were watching a glorified training session and it's the passion of the shed and the cop and so on, which the Premier League have sold really well. And I think I agree entirely with Gareth. You know, when I'm a Brighton fan, we played at Anfield a few weeks ago and we lost, but we lost because of the cop. It wasn't for the Anfield rosy, it was the noise from the cop that day. And I've been as an away fan many a time was ferocious and it makes a difference. And I think you're in danger of throwing that out in the pursuit of more money.

12:45Do you know what doesn't make sense to me? You know, you talk about the clubs perhaps wanting to try and woo tourists. Tourists are more likely to spend more. I get that. But do the clubs not want to explore why the tourists want to go to whatever stadium? Let's use Liverpool as a case study. Why is Liverpool a tourist attraction? OK, you can talk about the football, you can talk about on a slot, you can talk about the history of winning trophies. But one of the biggest attractions for Premier League supporters is to go to Anfield and experience the atmosphere, witness the COP in its full glory.

13:19That's part of what a tourist is buying into. Is it not so short-sighted of owners of football clubs if they ultimately, their asset is the COP? So facilitate that to keep the tourists coming. If you nullify the COP, your asset becomes less desirable to witness. I agree with you, and I think it's incredibly, short-sighted, but football is a very short-sighted business. If you lose three matches in a row, it's a crisis for a club now in modern-day football. Owners aren't patient. And also, do the owners actually understand the game? When we've got talk about individual owners talking about 4-4-3 formations or the Liverpool owners trying to trademark the name of the city for their own financial gain.

14:12This is people that don't understand football culture, but they do understand, and you've got to admire them. They're incredibly successful in their own business. Football is so unique, and I think also in countries such as England and Scotland and Germany and so on, it is so much part of you sign that invisible contract when you're seven years old, six years old, first time you went to see Chelsea. That contract's there for the rest of your life, and it's your enthusiasm, it's your passion which makes all the difference. but if somebody's prepared to pay an extra£20 a match, that's what the money men focus on, not you.

14:45When you're talking about the cultural asset by Leverkusen, you go to visit Dortmund now, there's over 2 ,000 English fans going over every week. Harder ones? Yeah. You can't remember that.

15:03The beauty of the Bundesliga is they don't want to be the best league in the world. They're not obsessed with being the biggest league in the world. They've got most of the team's 51 % fan ownership. So no matter what these clubs try and do, the fans will still have the final say. You've had sponsors come in and the fans have said, no, we don't want them. And they've got that power. They've got that voice. And when you see teams like Salford becoming more successful, FC United and Manchester, AFC Wimbledon, that's because fans are hunting for what they used to have, that passion, that singing, that, like you said, I love that cultural asset word.

15:41And the Premier League's in danger of becoming a tourist attraction or a franchise or what the Americans want, which it just, it will not sit right with the majority of fans. Well, Adam, I want to bring you in because there was, Ineos have come in and they came in, you know, great fanfare because they weren't the Glazers. Yeah. And it probably, it's fair to say, it's probably a little bit rocky. They look like Glazer Light at the moment. Yeah, I mean, and a lot of that of late was to do with the ticket price. And so one of the things you're unhappy with. Kind of mentioned like American owners and it's disappointing that we've got Sir Jim Ratcliffe, who's from the local area.

16:21And he did an interview with Andy Mitton and he kind of suggested that, you know, the ticket prices at Fulham are so high. So therefore, ours should match it. but then you compare house prizes in those areas and it's 1.5 million in Fulham and it's a lot less in the surrounding area of Old Trafford. And I just find it a little bit, how can you be so, how can you overlook everything about the club? How can you be so detached from what makes the club? And I think it ultimately means they just don't care about what fans think. They brought in tickets without concessions for 66 quid a pop. If you want to take your kid or whatever, it's going to cost you 132 pounds for two tickets.

16:59It doesn't make sense. And I think what they thought would happen was, because it was only 3 % or 4 % of the overall allocation, it wouldn't affect my season ticket price. I think I pay about£38 a game, which is probably fair for, I get to see Manchester United every week. It's amazing. But I think they thought fans like myself, who already have a season ticket, would be like, oh, well, it's not us. It's everyone else. It's going to be the tourists, so it doesn't matter. And it was refreshing to see fans kind of go, hold on a minute. We all need to stand up for this. I think it was the United-Everton game, in the Liverpool-Man City game where we saw all those fan bases come together to try and put a stop to it because the minute we allow that to happen, next season it'll be my season ticket.

17:37The season after that, it'll be everyone else's tickets. We have to put a stop to it and it's just a shame that someone kind of comes in, pretends to be a man of the people, sacks everyone left, right and centre in the job that has jobs there and then also tries to crank the season ticket prices up. Yes, football clubs have to compete. Yes, the Glazers have put an untold amount of debt on Manchester United, but it's not our debt. It's the Glazers' debt. It's the debt that they've created. Manchester United were debt-free before they came in, so why do the fans now all of a sudden have to pay for it?

18:09And also, we talk about transfers. I'll be honest, I can take or leave Anthony being at Manchester United if it means ticket prices stay the same, because most of the time they're spending money on crap anyway. Will those ticket prices stay the same? I remember when the FSG came into Liverpool and there was the furore of the£76 ticket and there was a big walkout. I was actually in the stand that game and walked out. I had to, I think. I couldn't have sat down. It was the big cops sort of face the second season. And to be fair to you, they backtracked and they changed it. After what happened with Ineos, is the talk of them backtracking or changing ticket prices?

18:48There's been a few games since where they've brought concessions back in, but ultimately that was because the tickets didn't sell out when you put them at£66. So I suppose fans talking with their feet and not turning up and paying those prices for it has meant they've had to backtrack. But the minute we're in the Champions League or the minute we're in a title race, something hopefully soon, probably never, but the minute that happens, they're going to just put the prices back up anyway. How do you stop it? That's the question. Do you vote with your feet or just not go? You've said people haven't been going.

19:21I haven't really seen that. I think it was those, that small percentage of tickets that didn't get taken up at that price. So it's only a very... Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the season ticket holders are already locked in. And that's the problem. They've got us by the balls. They know we're going to, we want to go to football games. They know we want to watch our teams win. And sometimes you're already locked in. You've got a season ticket. So... Well, 60 quid for a ticket is ridiculous. It's ridiculous. For Man United. Can you think of Manchester as well? We know Manchester. There's so many deprived areas.

19:49And as you say, Ineos, Jim Ratcliffe himself is from Falesworth, which there's some nice places in Falesworth. Don't get me wrong, but again, it's a deprived area. And you talk about people wanting to take their kids with them. If you take one kid, you're looking at£120. If you've got a family, you're looking at£300 or£400. It's just not right. Sounds sustainable. You can't do that. It's a lot worse than people think, though, because I was at Anfield and they put the banner between the City and Liverpool fans and it was really stop exploiting our loyalty and then I went to the toilet came back out for the start of the game the six Barcelona fans stood in a line in shirts in the away end I'm thinking how have these got tickets and they all just paid big money to City I don't know why the tickets have got to them you'd have to go 15, 20 years at least at City to get an away ticket City's a bit like that I went to the semi-final against Real Madrid a couple of years ago so bad I've never seen so many you know the worst thing about that particular game they usually for those kind of games they'll make you have to have gone to this season at least 10 games to get a ticket and they put it at zero.

20:46So it was just touts were getting them. All they wanted to do was make money out of that game and it said a lot. And they've tried to become the touts to beat the touts. There's no more season tickets. They've seen touts are getting 100 quid a ticket so they go hold on a minute we can do that. You can't get a season ticket at City anymore mate. They're trying their best to stop the touts aren't they? They've got all the e-tickets. It's because they want to make the money out of it themselves I think. Genuinely that's the way I see it. I think the reason they're stopping the touts so they can sell a ticket for£500.

21:13Soon we'll have dynamic pricing. We've got it next season because obviously we're moving stadium, aren't we? So the dynamic pricing is going to come in at Everton. And yet my season ticket's going to go up about 100. Your tickets were all gold-down priced though. You'll be all right. We might finish it more. We had to wind me neck in for a bit. But if Owen Arna's in gold for you, we might catch it. But ours, like mine's gone up 100 and whatever it is, 170 quid, these prices have come out. But we know the match day ticket's going to go up and you look and think a few years ago I got to know the Orlando City owner well before he sold to the Brazilians and they were playing at the remember where Aldo had the kick off they were playing at the City as well for Ireland in the World Cup in Florida and that stadium held 63 ,000 and they moved to a 27 ,000 seat of stadium and I was asking him why when you were getting kind of 45 ,000 and he was like well it's the American and he's from Stokeville but he was saying it's the American way we want 27 ,000 because people will pay $200 and yet it's never really sold out now where they were getting consistently 35 ,000, 40 ,000 and the other one Will the Everton support because my father-in-law is a season ticket older at Everton and there was all this thing when the new stadium it's better seats and you know they're trying to bring money in the club I get that and it looked people weren't happy where they were sort of the price jumped does it look like they will almost sell out next season in terms of people bought into the fact of maybe the price rise?

22:42I think it's difficult. I mean, I'll be honest, I'm saying mine's gone up. I thought it'd go up more, but it has, when I think, I mean, I've got to pay for my ladder as well, so it will be, your missus doesn't know yet how much it's gone up, but there you go. But I think, like you were saying, you've got us on the hook at the moment because I think Everton sell out everything. The games are sold out weeks and weeks before, big waiting list, but that big waiting list, a lot of it will be to do with the new stadium. Now, you'll only get that for maybe two years. if everything don't improve then you start going will people if the ticket price is safe for walk up at 75, 80 quid in our city you're saying you know you might get people who can come in of course if we go to Madrid or Barcelona or you know we actually met in Dortmund didn't we all those years ago you'll pay the money for that sort of one off day won't you but from our city Manchester's the same it's where these owners get the front to put ticket prices from what you're watching they know for the value we're probably having our worst ever Premier League season we're 13th after how many games 15, 16 games look at the cheap spot the prices are what started at Man U though has even crept in at Forest so if I can't make a game I'd used to give it a family member you can't do that if I'm caught doing that now I'll get a ban I need to sell my ticket back to the club so Man United I think when we played them the other week, there was storms.

24:10So they made an announcement saying it won't count against your half into, almost like it was a fantastic thing that the club was doing. And it's just almost like you're threatened. If you don't go, you've lost your season card. They almost want that. But they won't ever sell that season card again. There's a whole generation of kids now who just will not be able to get a season card. They want the match day fans. They want 60 quid tickets. They want you to go and buy a shirt in the club shop. all that stuff, but it's losing that. And if Forrest got relegated in a few years, they'd be crying out for us trying to get back.

24:44Also, if ticket prices were a bit cheaper, people are going to be more inclined to spend more at the stadium, more inclined to spend more on food, drinks, whatever. Kieran, do you think Everton, if the Everton takeover happens, that'll be 14 American-owned clubs in the Premier League. That's the threshold, isn't it, for kind of majority rule? How significant do you think that'll be? Well, as you rightly said, under the Premier League constitution, you get two-thirds majority, which is 14 clubs out of 20, then you can start to change things around. And I think one of the big fears is, will the Premier League go to the EFL with perhaps a new offer on the table, which says it's not going to be three up, three down anymore.

25:24It's going to be the side that finishes third bottom in the Premier League goes into a playoff with the clubs from the championship. and you'll get a bit more money going south as a result of that because that's protecting the interests. American owners have got a completely different mentality and it's not a criticism because that's the culture that they've grown up with, but their aim is to maximise financial return. They're not in love with football. If you've got an owner who's, you know, you're from Manchester, Paul, and if you look at Andy Holt at Accrington, he's an Accrington lad. If you look at Delia Smith with Norwich, I'm a Brighton fan, Tony Bloom's a Brighton fan, you trust the owners to always do what's best for the club because ultimately they're fans first and successful people after.

26:12You change that relationship, you're a successful business person, your main focus is on making money. And you're looking for that exit route at all times. If somebody's willing to pay, if somebody offers Jim Ratcliffe twice the amount of money that he paid for his shares in Manageo, he'll sell because it's a sensible business deal. You would hope that other owners would have a different mentality. I think that's a point. Ineos, I think they could do something positive. I keep coming back to Ineos, obviously, because it's Man United. For the year, they've been in charge nearly a year now, and everything is still negative.

26:47I can't think of something positive that they've done for the football club. It's getting worse on the football pitch. And then they've... Could they not have to just settle up? We'll do cheaper tickets. Just give us something a little bit. That's what was my argument. what price something a little bit more positive why wouldn't you want the fans on board how can you ask Man United fans to pay 66 quid more money for what is coming on the football field

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28:53Dan I want to come to you you're the I think Crystal Palace are the only team who didn't put tickets up I think this season does that almost make you proud when you're sitting amongst other fans listening to them obviously Kieran mentioned Tony Bloom even though we've got US owners at Palace with Josh Harris David Blitzer and John Texter even though he's trying to sell at the moment Steve Parrish remains the driving force at Palace and you know there are people within our fan base that will be critical of certain decisions he takes but he still understands the Palace, you know, the ethos and how important South London culture is to the club.

29:26So, I mean, I'm philosophical because obviously we've got this new stand that we're attempting to build. That would bring in a different sort of clientele to Palace because you're going to have more corporate seats and they're going to want them to stay in the ground longer. But I still think, and maybe it's sort of a bit silly of me to think it, but I honestly believe that that would facilitate Steve Parrish keeping the prices of the tickets elsewhere in the stadium down. and that is a source of pride when you consider the amount of conversations that are going on about the raising of prices across the league.

29:54Well, Niamh, you go to lots of grounds up and down the country. What are your thoughts on the price range of different clubs in different parts of the country? The big thing I'm worried about is how toxic it could get in the next few years because I think that low-income fans are going to have to... They want to direct their blame to somebody and they're not going to be able to reach these owners with anything more than protests. so all of a sudden the people in front of you that you can directly blame are the fans that are taking up those expensive seats and can afford it and the manager and the players who you feel more disconnected from year by year as they're millionaires millionaires millionaires and I think these clubs are going to create a rod for their own back I think Tottenham for example the lack of patience that I've seen Spurs have Spurs fans have for Ange has surprised me a little because I think Spurs usually are quite patient with managers.

30:47But I think they've been impatient because Spurs have got the second highest season ticket in Europe. And, I mean, you mentioned that they make the most money as well with Manchester United. Why? Why do they deserve that? What have they got to show for that? It's not trophies. So I don't understand why they feel they can do that. And all of a sudden the fans will say, actually, if you are going to charge us this amount, we have an expectation then on the pitch or we have an expectation of standards and I don't think that Tottenham have provided that whereas if you go lower down the leagues you don't always see that expectation there is a bit more patience and I think a big part of that is feeling connected whether it be Andy Holt at Akistandi if it's a wintry night and away fans make the slog they make the trip there'll be a hot drink waiting for you for free or at Bolton we've got multiple family day outs where it's only£10 for a ticket.

31:39And there's always something to remind you that there's the community element of football and it puts it into perspective a bit and it keeps fans patient. Whereas I think if you make it a product, it will be treated as such from fans. They'll demand and expect that success. And there will be a little bit of toxicity between fans in the stadium, the ones who can afford to be in those corporate, because you're taking the tickets from the low-income fans. and that I think is quite worrying to think what that could do for the fan side of things. Charlene, I think you've got a question for us. Yeah.

32:12Do you think that there should be more done for use from underprivileged areas to have more access to be able to get to Premier League games? Yes. Yeah. But owners want to make money. That's just become the bottom line of it. But you do make money for those things. You would make money because if you create a youth culture, if you create a youth culture of going to football, there's a generation of football fans that believe it's a TV show. There's a generation of football fans that have no affinity with going to the stadium. If you create those fans from a young age, I know that this isn't how the owners of today will think.

32:52They won't think about the fan who's going to be going on their own, paying money week in, week out, in, what, 16 years' time. But creating those young fans who believe that, going to football is part of their... Which once upon a time is what we were. Exactly. What we are working. Exactly. Now that's gone. It was a rite of passage when I was young. You went to Chelsea or QPR or Arsenal. You know what I think, something to kid in, but you know sometimes when there's like a Carabao Cup game, let's say, and even the biggest, which is most probably Premier League clubs probably sell out, I would imagine, for a Premier League game, more or less.

33:23You know if I'm just sat in a stadium and I'll see like a stand's empty or something, I always think, why didn't they just give all them tickets like the school around the corner? I mean, things like that posture, I know it sounds so easy, so maybe it's not that easy, but you know that thing of like, it gives them a taste of the game, and then they might become a fan. The City do that. People can laugh about it. City do it for those Carabao Cup games, you know, sometimes at the Champions League you might get a dead rubber at the end of the group. City will give it to schools, local kids, I think Sterling did something with a foundation, and you get mocked.

33:57I know that might be because it's City, whatever you want to say about that, but at the end of the day that's the problem that's the real problem Don't the other fans who have paid proper prices for the tickets then start to moan about that? Well if I join the cup scheme for City I'm committing to every cup game this season and I'll pay a ticket so at the end of the day that could have been a massive game you look at the Champions League now we've got Club Brugia at home in a few weeks we need to win that to qualify so that's not going to be a free game that's a big game now but yeah it's a problem because people just laugh it off It is right though isn't it that we look at it on this side and I think you two still will do because going from a young age, we're all looking at it from a fan perspective.

34:32Like Cairns says, they're not fans, are they? I was telling Gareth before that Dusseldorf were relegated into the second Bundesliga 2 and I think for five games this season, they just let everyone in for free. They just said, you can all come in, sell out. And what they'd found the first three games, they'd done it. They were actually making more money because people were going in and spending the money, you know, buying drinks. It's incredible, isn't it? well you can get into Germany anyway but that kind of thing is they're making money anyway but they're getting those fans like you said that would be unbelievable for people who can't go to the match like kids who never get to it obviously Liverpool sell out Everton United and all that but you've got to give those kids that experience of going to the game because you're right Rory it's FIFA and all that it just becomes a TV thing I mean we watched the TV show when COVID didn't we because that's all it was if you go back and look at them COVID games they're embarrassing they're just a training session aren't they you've got to make that kid want to go the match if you never get to a game other than a screen I think that's a good point you look now if we were kids now and you're thinking how you used to get to the match sometimes you used to get the boss you used to go with your mates and imagine no one to pay 66 quid I'd say to your parents can I have 50 or 40, 30 quid to go and they'd be like no chance you'd probably go in you'd have a day for a tenner or something 15 quid maybe not even just going to the football like to book a football pitch I've got to pay £100 sometimes if I was doing that as a kid I've never played in football we'd rock up jump over a fence into AstroTurf or something now you've got to book out a pitch and you've got to pay£120 how are these kids going to even play football I coach it's like£75 for an hour on a quarter of a city owned pitch as soon as the hour's up someone's on the pitch they're on the pitch with about four minutes to go and the big fella you know would like to get turned off as well.

36:27That's it, so it's like, it's all of that and I don't understand why, I don't know Manchester the way I know my own city but I don't understand, I know this is slightly different but why like Everton and Liverpool don't build a few of those cages and all the fans in South London you've got them and Manchester there's somewhere to go and play footy because otherwise our kids, exactly, our kids playing 75, 80 quid whatever to just have a game for them. Like when we were kids you could go places to play footy couldn't you? I think having unreserved seating would help massively as well like you've got reserved seating everywhere like if you want to go with your mate you're very rarely going to be sat together and away it will happen because no one really cares my lad doesn't even sit with me sits like the row in front about eight seats on because we'll get to shoot together so I don't want to sit with him now the way the anguish he comes out with but when he got a season ticket he was over I had to sit to see the fellas we used to look out for him for he was eight you know I have to go over at half time and my mate sits close it wasn't too bad any social I used to be a social worker as well so he was well looked after by the way but you know you can't even get two together and for kids now we can't get there like you say I don't think they realise how much like the poke and the bear of supporters up and down the land now because this isn't a Liverpool thing or a Manchester thing or a London thing it's every club it's every set of fans you know you had 20 ,000 West Ham fans signed a petition against ticket price writers you had 15 ,000 at Wolves that did the same thing and so it's everywhere now everyone's talking about it do you think you can actually achieve something is there a belief between all the fan bases getting together that you can make a change we've talked about it before we've seen it in the Bundesliga that when supporters come together in big numbers they pay attention and it's happened the year before that's why we've got an away cap of£30 that's why we didn't get £77 tickets at Anfield and you know Super League as well when the club got scrapped when fans like us were described as legacy fans Well, there must be more than me and people in this room who want our legacy to be affordable football for our sons and daughters.

38:30So I think more and more it's coming together. More and more people are looking a little bit further than the end of their nose and thinking, do you know what? We are being ripped off here. I don't think they care about poking the bird, do they? I keep going back to our club and you think of Jim Ratcliffe, confesses that he was a Man United fan, again, I'll say from Falesworth. What's he doing for him? if he was a United fan he went to United all the time there's nothing positive happening with the football club the team look bang average as the position in the league will say and as I said before they're not doing anything for fans they're making it if we've got Jim Ratcliffe we talk about all these American owners we've got Jim Ratcliffe who's supposed to be a United fan from Falesworth in an area in Manchester and he's still hiking prices up it just shows us no we've done a real cup final didn't we cup final kicking off a quarter past five and trains back to sort of Liverpool Manchester we're going a quarter to seven but you've got no the game's still going on aren't you no one and it's only every it's when these things happen everyone goes that's terrible isn't it to stop that kind of thing everyone does have to come together and it's really hard because your tribalism stops you from doing it but if everyone could then it's a big ask the sad thing is though if the younger fans are being priced out and they don't become legacy fans like us, I guess, and the legacy fans are aging, eventually there's not going to be a group of fans that will stand up to it.

39:58And then there'll be no Tory, that's what I'm saying. And then ultimately, Tory's don't want to die. Adam, where's all this cost-cutting United doing with staff? Where's the Christmas do gone? They cut that as well. Where Christmas do you? I don't know. Disabled supporters association. There's so much cutting. Where's that money going then? It's just like, in their pockets. Outing errors on transfers. It's not like, they could make a slight accounting ever and save that much money on a track like I don't understand what their aim is

40:32the other topic we've got as well in this part you just mentioned the cup final so the other topic in this show is about the FA Cup and you've got a big one for Salford against Man City I'm scared I don't know what I'm asking that would be the end of Pep You know what the sparrows thing is? Now that won't be a crisis, won't it? There's going to be more Salford fans in the away end and they get the home games. How's that happening? Is it just United fans, you reckon? I think a few United fans. You can't talk about numbers. They can afford a ticket, that's why. It's cheap. What do you say? Tickets are cheap, that's why.

41:03I hope we make our quid so you make no money, mate. What are your thoughts, Sonny? Are you used to being buzzing with the draw? Oh, absolutely made up, yeah. I think it's the first time we've ever been in the FA Cup, third round, so, yeah, absolutely made up. Are you going to sit and watch the game? Are you going to be in the director's box? I don't know. We'll be singing, mate, don't worry. That's to shake Mansoor, I think, probably, yeah. I'm looking forward to it. Look, we're not going to win, are we? But, no, we're doing all right. City's struggling a bit, so I think it could be a few nerves, though.

41:35Nah.

41:38Arms are crossed now. I'm doing a Fergie V Pep. I'm going to be there shaking him. What are you doing then? Kieran, I want to bring you in. I want to bring you in on the finances of the FA Cup, the smaller team playing the Premier League club. There's a lot made about FA Cup replays. I mean, how much are clubs missing out on? How much can they actually gain, you know, Salford in that situation? Just explain to us how it works for the lower league club. Be careful our managers watching. The way that the money is split is that it's, the FA take 10 % of the gate receipts and then you cover the costs and the rest is 45-45 between the home and the away team.

42:17So it makes far more sense from a financial point of view for a club from League Two or from non-league to go to a Premier League club and have a big payday. At the same time, it's a lottery, isn't it? And you're winning a lottery. And I don't like the idea of club sustainability, club survival being basic. It's the equivalent of me taking my monthly salary and spending it all on scratch cards. The chances are I'm going to lose more than I'm going to win. So it's not something you'd recommend. what the FA should be doing is increasing the money for the lower league clubs at the lower levels of the FA Cup.

42:54You only get£2 million for winning the FA Cup. You get£3.5 million for finishing 13th instead of 14th. So given that the bigger clubs aren't really going to make much money from it, why not go and have more of the pool going to the smaller clubs? As far as the matches concerned, the romantic in me. And I saw Colchester United play Leeds United in, I think it was 1971. Colchester were in the fourth division at the time. Leeds United were the best team in the country. Colchester won 3-2. And I'm not even a Colchester fan. I will live with that for the rest of my life because it was just ridiculous.

43:31And it was the most lively I've ever seen in 50 years of watching football. Afterwards, Leeds fans weren't particularly happy with the result. but it's those memories that I think that make us as Rory's saying we have this love affair with the game and it's that having those opportunities in the cup matches I think people are to actually think about the money don't they and I'm just thinking we're not thinking about it at all we're just thinking about the brilliant day out for our players to go and challenge the South of the Games what's been the best team for so many years the staff just to go there to be in and around the fans then going to experience I think that's what it's all about which the money's there and it's good it's great to have but it's not one thing to think about It's like a cup final for that day isn't it?

44:14Of course it is On a different level obviously but for everyone What are we thinking here about the replays going? I was like before anyone gives their opinion I wanted the FA Cup replays gone and not just because I meant Liverpool had an extra game I just I just felt with the FA Cup replays when I was a kid I remember Everton playing Sheffield Wednesday four times I think that was about 88, 89 and FA Cup replays were a big thing then but when there's FA Cup replays now in the middle sometimes you don't even know they're on and you'll turn over the telly and the game no one's interested no one felt like I did think it was time to stop having FA Cup replay because I actually think the Carabao Cup now as a competition is probably more exciting than the FA Cup in that the game's done that night it's a penalty shootout you know the draw there's nothing worse you get to the FA Cup and you go this team this team could play this team or this team and you don't know sort of where you know what I mean what are your feelings in here that's the tradition of it though no but that's gone I think the FA Premier League fan it's different the semi-finals are at Wembley still I hate that I hate that it's at Wembley and that is purely for monetary reasons absolutely but a small Notts County in my city you know they get drawn against Man United at Notts and then take it to Old Trafford.

45:38Those fans celebrate like they've just won the FA Cup. You know what I'd say to that? You've got the penalty shoes off to beat them. What about beating them? Isn't that more about it? So if you draw it at home, you've got a penalty. You're not going to win away. You've got a chance of beating them there. That's something that you remember forever. I think they scored on 94 minutes to take it to extra time. But then obviously it goes into extra time and they're completely gone because they've spent themselves over 90 minutes. they would have got a replay and it's not just the TV it's the romance of it and you're saying it's gone but it's gone because no one cares about it anymore but why don't they care about it then?

46:13So they just go to Paris then? People don't care about it because the FA Cup used to be some of the only games you'd get on TV now we've got there's games every day and everything The Premier League and the Champions League whether you like it or not have become just off the scale compared to what the old European Cup was I mean the old European Cup if an English team weren't even in it I don't even think the final used to be on a time you might get the final live the first division I grew up with the first division the best way I describe the Premier League is it feels like FA Cup third round every week the Premier League weekend is an event teams when they win in the Premier League now do you do a lap of honour I'm not having a go at them it's that big for a team to win the whole world's watching and that's the way I describe the Premier League and that's credit to the Premier League but it's left the FA Cup behind for it and it's got to find a way and I think Not having replays and being sort of, you know, control, torn, ooze, worn.

47:09Not having replays. Is it eroding more tradition? You know, like the tradition of the FA Cup, what the FA Cup is supposed to represent. It's the oldest cup competition in the world. It's the best cup competition in the world. It's something that really does mean so much. Like, being a Chelsea fan, Chelsea beating Leeds in 1970, David Webb scoring a header. Any Chelsea fan, decades younger than me, knows that. And then you know those moments, just those moments, Ronnie Radford scoring for Herod. I think these lower league clubs, it could be about survival for the next two years. But I think Kieran's point's right, though.

47:39I think Kieran's point's right. No one wants to stop a club having this lottery win. But you can almost be hoping for this, spending all kinds of money, hoping you get this FA Cup. There should be money right across the board, what he's talking about, where this 45%, 45%. If that was sort of changed, or there's maybe something, the Premier League or the lower league teams get maybe more revenue when they come up against teams. It's not waiting for this one moment. How can you sustain lower league? It's like a decision. I think this Tottenham one's a good example really. I don't know, Cairn, there must be a massive difference in money they're going to make from being at home or away.

48:20I'd expect Spurs, if it was at home, even if they reduced ticket prices, which they probably would, they'd still probably take£3 million. You give 10 % to the FA, Tamworth were getting£1.5 million. That's 50 % of what they're going to generate in a whole season in the National League. Rochdale played Spurs in the FA Cup and they were losing that game and then they scored in the very last minute to equalise. And the replay was then at Wembley because it was when Spurs were at Wembley. I remember that, yeah. Do you think in that moment when they scored that last minute equaliser, Rochdale fans would rather the opportunity to take it to extra time and beat Spurs at home or a guaranteed trip to Wembley.

49:01Guaranteed to Wembley, yeah. So I do think it's quite a Premier League centric view to remove replays because it doesn't benefit Premier League clubs whatsoever. So in return, I think that the solidarity payments, as you mentioned, they have to be so much better at what the Premier League has given to the rest of the EFL because the gap that's being created at the moment is outrageous. And even if you look at the difference in a parachute payment versus just a payment for existing in those lower divisions, it's just shocking. And if I was an EFL club or a non-league club now, I'd be thinking, how can I get my own back?

49:39How can I steal these fans from Premier League clubs that can't afford to go to Premier League clubs anymore? How can I steal them? And I think that's something that EFL... I think the thing, and I'll go back to the replays, and I think lower league clubs want replays against Premier League clubs. They don't want replays against someone in their own division. I can absolutely guarantee that. They're playing 46 games in the AFL Cup as well, so it is about the money. So I understand it, but I'd just go back to Kieran's point. There's got to be something to look after clubs across the board rather than waiting for that lottery win.

50:10My son's at Wigan, so I know how many games they play. It just feels like there's never, ever a free midweek. And I actually think, do them clubs really want a replay? they do with the Premier League so I think Wigan have got Mansfield in the cup in the next round so Accrington get Liverpool I'm sitting there hoping Wigan get Liverpool but they get someone in their own division the two managers if that ends up being a replay they'll be like oh we don't need this with the actual fixture congestion that they've got themselves so yeah Should they remove the extra time then do you think because like you were saying I watched Reading should be out of football extra time's bored one game 90 minutes like the Carabao Cup straight to pens because then that will give because like you said Reading they were 3-3 they might have won the shooter they've got to be 5-3 but they put everything in I think I've cracked it I genuinely think I've cracked it right go on it ends a draw two managers speak to the referee if one of them says it's like split or steel gold or gold if one of them says replay then it's a replay either manager but if they agree to finish it on the night, they finish it on the night.

51:18You sound like an American. There you go.

51:24That way, when it's Manfield-Wigan, both managers go, let's finish this today. No replay. When it's Rochdale and the carrot of Wembley is there, we want a replay. We don't. It doesn't matter. We have a replay. There you go. You are welcome. If you were the lower side and you took it to a draw, or you took it to penalties, if you were the lower-ranked team, that maybe there's a bonus you could get, an incentive for just achieving that. Maybe if you're a big Premier League team and you're going to Tamworth, that you have to just say, look, we don't get anything from this. Yeah. Some have done. Everything goes to Tamworth.

52:03Some have done. Some have done. You'll see the state of the teams that turn up. It's only 100 grand, pardon? You'll see the state of some of the teams that turn up. It'll be like, second string. Well, if you're out, you're out. So that's our problem, isn't it? But then it'll be like, are you devaluing the FA Cup by... That's it. No, you're helping a lower league club. No, I know, but I'm just pre-empting what would happen and what some of these big clubs would do. It's that fear, isn't it? That, you know, it's just only becoming about the elite again. And, you know, you mentioned Marie and Jamie.

52:28I used to go and watch Noseley United. They don't exist anymore. But I remember they sold Mike Marsh to Liverpool for 50 grand. And that money was spent on seats for the stand, bulbs for the floodlights, a kit for the team. And it's like, it makes a huge difference to them. and those United got to the first round proper, played at Goodison Park, got battered by Carlisle United, but the money they got in from that game, again, was transformational for them, and that's the only time I've ever been to Goodison Park and supported the home team, obviously. But, you know, I just think, like, if the money's going to drip down, as you're saying, then sound, but you've got to sort that bit first, because we should value our pyramid in this country.

53:10It's brilliant. It's brilliant that so many places have got a footy team. we should do everything we can to sustain that and it shouldn't just be about Liverpool, Man United, Champions League, Premier League let's value like North West Counties and Unibond or whatever it's called these days you know what I mean, those leagues matter and are brilliant I love going to a non-league game and having a pint and watching the game and being not as, you know, about the game

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55:20We've got Kieran in, as I said, the last couple of years we've chatted, especially to you, Baz, with Everton's situation. I mean, feel free. Is there any questions for Kieran where your clubs are right now? Okay, let's start with you, Baz, with Everton. Are you completely out of the woods right now, Everton, at the moment? Have they still got anything hanging over them? They've still got an outstanding charge, Everton, because the money that was lent to build the new stadium, potentially there could be a charge on the back of that because the owner doesn't appear to have looked at the small print of the loan.

55:53So where we are as far as the Premier League is concerned with that, they're keeping very quiet because all of the focus is on what's happening at Manchester City. But Everton, that is the big outstanding issue. The other issue is what's going to happen to the loans that exist at present. In an ideal world, the new owners come in, and I think there's a good chance that the deal will go through very, very soon. The new owners will come in and say, right, we'll pay off all of those loans. We'll convert them into shares. There's no interest. If you look to see what's happened at Manchester United, since the Glazers took over Manchester United, they spent£961 million on interest on the loans.

56:33That could have built a new stadium. It's ridiculous. He's Manchester United. All that money going out to bankers is crazy. So Everton, there's still this elephant in the room. What are your thoughts, Baz? My thoughts are that Mishiri's loans are getting turned into equity and everything else that will be sorted that way. In terms of the outstanding charge, which I think is to do with the accounting care, I mean, that's standard accounting practice everywhere. So it would be a bit crazy if the Premier League have got an issue with it. I know they've said they have, but it's gone quiet. I thought they were getting to a situation with these sorts of things quite quickly.

57:09And yet this has been almost brushed under the car. So they're probably really embarrassed that they've damaged the brand so much in the last sort of 12, 18 months. And it's going on with City, while Chelsea have been put to one side, even though they admitted the charge or whatever. So it's all a little bit up in the air. But from our perspective, I'm not concerned about that at all. And hopefully we will start to move to a better place where we're not threatened. with. Kieran, are we in a stage now where in the last year or so this Everton situation, there was Nottingham Forest, there was other clubs talking about punch deductions have we moved away from that?

57:45When you're looking at all club accounts now, is this whether you like the rules or not, has it almost got the football sort of teams in the Premier League back in order in some way? I think we're closer to a good position than we were, but you've only got to go back to June of 2024 when you had six clubs, Chelsea, Newcastle, Forest, Everton, Leicester and Villa, all were going to break PSR and they managed to sort out a few sales of players and bits and pieces to see them through. I've had some conversations with journalists. There's one club in particular in the Premier League who is at high risk of a charge from the Premier League for breaching.

58:29But the accounts are due in for the Premier League on the 13th. Who is it? December. Don't say us, Kurt. We're all nervous now. I'd rather not say. But the accounts are going to come out. Surely they must be... What colour do they be playing? It's not red. I'm not bothered. So the accounts have got to be submitted to the Premier League for the 31st December and the Premier League has then got a couple of weeks before it makes a decision on the charges. Where are we now with Manchester City? Because it's not just about Man City and it feels like everyone's almost affected or certainly clubs who have been in and around them the last few years they're almost waiting for as much as Manchester City fans what's going to happen there I mean you know it better than us the financial situations of clubs I mean I think in the case of the City there's actually there's three charges it's not 115 has money come in from the owners which they've pretended to be from the sponsors if that is the case then that is fraud That is about as serious as it gets.

59:32And if found guilty of those charges, then the book will be thrown at Manchester City and it's going to be a massive points deduction. But you wouldn't think it'd be relegation? You can't relegate them because the Premier League and the EFL are independent bodies. So the EFL doesn't have to accept them. Yeah, but you can take enough points off them to relegate them. That's right. So I think we'd probably, you know, given that the Forest and the Everton points deductions, They were both described by the commission as being minor breaches. Well, what Manchester City are being accused of is major breaches over a nine - to ten-year period.

1:00:07So you would be looking at somewhere in the region of 60 to 100 points if you go through on a charge-by-charge basis. So as you're right, it would relegate them. The paying people off book, it happens in football. I know of a number of players and ex-players who are working for the owner's company and is also on a wage at the club. We've got history of football, of players' mothers being paid hundreds of thousands of pounds to be an academy scout in order for the player to have a slightly better deal and so on. So football is quite creative in those roles. And the third charge, which I think City will find difficult to defend, will be non-cooperation with the Premier League investigation.

1:00:53Having said that, if somebody hacked my email, if my wife looks at my internet history, I'm in trouble.

1:01:06You're making a monster to admit that. That's got to be the starting line.

1:01:14And it shouldn't be done, should it? You shouldn't be relying on hacked emails and that's city's defence. OK. When they announce it, it sounds like it's pretty imminent. Do you think this will just get, you know, they kind of be kicked down the road and it'll be sort of, you know, appealing this and appealing that from both sides? I think there are very narrow grounds for appeal because both sides have agreed to the way the commission. It's only if the conduct of the commission itself was unprofessional in some way that one of the parties can potentially make an appeal. If Manchester City are found guilty, then the whole board of directors has to resign because they will have been found guilty of making misrepresentation, effectively of lying to a commission.

1:01:58Where the Premier League will stand, if Manchester City successfully defend, because the legal costs, they're likely to be in the region of£50 to£60 million on each side. So, yeah, total legal fees of£120 million. Well, that's coming out of the books of everybody's club. Sorry, you know that money you're talking about, say the Premier League, is that the other club's money in some ways? Yeah, that's all of the 20 members of the Premier League because the way that the Premier League operates is it gets the money from Sky, it gets the money from the sponsors, it takes out its costs and then it divides them between the 20 clubs.

1:02:32So if they've got a£60 million legal bill, and if you take a look at their legal bill for last season, it was extortionate and that was just on setting themselves up for City and Forest and what happened to Everton and the Leicester case as well. Now, would there be a situation with the other clubs in the Premier League where, let's say, for instance, Liverpool, United, Arsenal, are desperate to see City get done so that they're willing to pay the money? And they've got the money. But there might be teams at the bottom who are saying, well, I want that couple of million pounds. We don't want to keep sort of funding.

1:03:00Is that going on between clubs in the Premier League? It used to be the big six and the other 14. If you go to a Premier League meeting, what we're now seeing is everybody's falling out with each other and you are getting some of the non-Super League clubs having words for that. Manchester City aren't a threat to us. If I'm Brentford, if I'm Palace, if I'm Brighton, Bournemouth, Manchester City are nothing to do with them because they're operating in a different stratosphere. So all of the pressure has come from the big six clubs. In particular, there's one or two who have been very, very aggressive towards Manchester City and it's resulting in more fallouts.

1:03:39Any thoughts? Any questions you want to throw, Kieran? I don't know what he's sounding. All blow over me. Kieran, it seems as if, though, well, football is for the fans and it feels like, you know, these clubs really capitalise from the fans in terms of, like, merchandise and stuff like that. So when you take Arsenal, for example, we've got our home away third kit, we've got our match arrival kits, we've got our training kits, we've got a jacket, you know, to walk through the tunnel. there's endless amount of merchandise. And the one you've got on. Sorry? And the one you've got on. Exactly, and this beautiful one as well.

1:04:15That's continuously coming out, you know, throughout the season. And obviously as fans, you know, we look at the players and we think, oh, that looks amazing, I want that. So why is it that the fans are always having to pay the price? Shouldn't we analyse how much the players are getting paid, you know, management, and perhaps, you know, try and capitalise there a bit? Well, ultimately, we choose to pay those prices. You do have a choice. And I actually brought along, I did some work for another broadcaster during the summer because I was in Germany watching England play. I got an England shirt for 11 quid.

1:04:52And if you look at it, I can't tell the difference between the authentic and the fake. And that was done because the broadcaster said, we need to look at prices. We as fans have a choice. But the trouble is, football is the most important thing in our lives of the unimportant things in life. Yes, we love our family. Yes, we want to put a roof over our heads. Yes, we've got to go and get the kids to school and to feed them and so on. But football comes next. And the sacrifices that everybody in this room makes on a regular basis, I won't do this, I won't do that, because we've got two away matches next month and one of them's at Newcastle and one of them's at United.

1:05:26It's the cost of the tickets, it's the cost of travel. We do that because you love the clubs. The merchandise is really sensitive. In terms of where the money goes, I've got a spreadsheet which has got... I've got no life, by the way. I've got a spreadsheet... Search history, mate. Bring it back. It's all company's house. My wife says to me, you're the only man that gets up at 3 o 'clock in the morning to look at a set of accounts. Good save, then. You're hiding it well. Since the Premier League started, the average income for a person has doubled. So in terms of general prices, inflation for people has doubled.

1:06:08The money coming into the Premier League has increased by a factor of 30. Now, that's partly due to the success of the Premier League. But the money going out, the players' wages have increased by a factor of 40, and transfer fees have gone up by a factor of 42. So all of the money coming in is driven out. When we're buying that merchandise, I have this conversation with myself, well, it's going to the club. It's going to allow the club to buy another player. It's going to allow us to potentially offer that player a new contract. I have that with no other part of my life. When I go to the garage because my clutch is knackered, I go and say, oh, I'm helping out a local businessman here.

1:06:48I'm going, oh, for Christ's sake, I'm having to stumble. Football is different. We have this mentality. And until that psyche changes, the clubs will exploit it because we are addicts to football. And it's a fantastic addiction and it's an incredibly healthy addiction as well because where else do we hug strangers apart from football? I think it's so fantastic in many other ways, but it comes at a very high financial price. Well, thanks, Ciarán. And that is another fantastic edition of The Fan Debate brought to you by Skybet. Thank you.

1:07:28We'll be right back.