The First Ever Stick to Rugby with Martin Johnson!

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3:30belts on you two. Yes, thank you. Safely plugged in. Child locks on. Welcome to the very first Stick to Rugby brought to you by Defender. I'm David Flatman. In the back we've got Rugby World Cup winners Lawrence DiLaglio and Katie Daly-McLean. Alongside me in the front we've got thinking woman's crumpet Tom Shanklin. A.K.A. Tom Shanklin. Housewives favourite. Housewives favourite. Are you? I've been since I was 18. It's because you look the same age as you are. I thought it was Gareth Thomas, if I'm honest. I do get Gareth Thomas. Jimmy Somerville. Jimmy Somerville is the best one. Yeah, Ian Dowie.

4:11Ian Dowie. There's a few. They're all quite complimentary, though, yours. He's got a likeable face, haven't they? Mine are annoying, because I always get stuff like Jason Statham and The Rock and stuff like that. Boris Stankovic. More the pebble flats for you, mate. I do get Boris Stankovic. he played Katie I don't know how niche nausea your men's rugby knowledge is but he played Lucid for Leicester for a long time and my I don't want to get dragged into a conversation about divorce it was very amicable Katie but my ex-wife once walked into a pub and put her hand on his back and said hi darling and turned around and it was Stanko it wasn't me they've got nine kids now I've got to be honest we were racing once it was school way and then walks in and this lady's trying to sell me some header.

4:58You know, go on, lucky header, mate, lucky header. And I told her to do one. And she went, you're just a shit Tyson Fury. Big John Fury, man. Steady on. Oh, I like that. So on the first, the inaugural stick to rugby, we've gone quite big for our first one in rugby terms. We've got Martin Johnson coming on. We've gone large. Lawrence has made the call, so it happened. And Shanks, we were playing against Leicester for Saracens. and he punched our mate Robbie Russell, opened him up like a zip and Jono got a yellow card, sure, but so did Robbie for getting chinned. I'm going to ask him about coaching because we've heard a lot about 2003, the World Cup, obviously, but him as a coach and whether or not he's frustrated that England haven't won a World Cup since 2003 or if he's secretly quite happy.

5:49Like, lol. A bit smug about chingling. I've got to be honest, my rate is always my rate, whether we won the World Cup or not. It's not changing. It's the same when it goes up just above inflation. Four more years. Four more years.

6:05We don't win in Ireland. Where are we going from here? Start putting a bit of pressure on the players. Start putting a bit of pressure on the team. I think as a fly-half, I don't get our obsession with not letting fly-halves play fly-halves. DuPont is a generational player, isn't he? He's turning into that. Which is fantastic for rugby to have a world superstar. This Welsh supporter's gobbed on me. At moments like that, you just think to yourself, I understand why Eric Cantona did what he did. I felt like I was just kung fu-ed him. I'm going to terrorise you! And then we look at our nicknames.

6:32Melon. Nugget. Drughead. Grub. Bonkai. Bonk. Swank up. That's it. Bonk. Swan neck. Lucky to be alive. Stick to rugby is brought to you by Defender.

6:51Right, look. Stay inside. I know we haven't started yet, Katie, but I'm not joking, all right? Don't block me out of the cameras. This is big for me, this part of it.

7:01Ooh. He does like this. He does like this. Right, mate. I've got a lot of time for this one. Every time. And you, like... Remember the cinema? Remember I did Lord of the Rings? Yeah, yeah. It was heaving. It was in North London. Holloway, wasn't it? Holloway Road. And he's, like, going past everyone. I'm going, excuse me. Excuse me. Excuse me. Excuse me. excuse me and he goes there oh that's not how I did it as he goes to sit down I've gone oh Dave the whole place went up start sweating the podcast genre hey this is it mate it's a brave new world genre it's an amazing thing isn't it there's a big I heard someone say once there's a big bucket in the sky full of podcasts we're going to put another one in the bucket oh no this is going to be the governor this one got that many I tried to avoid him I did cold in him thank you very much well now our friendship is I don't know if you know this lol but I got two when I was playing for Saracens the early days I got yellow carded twice for punching you and one of them was just they're not very good they were like body shots I think and I wasn't very good at it and then we went into England camp that was on a Sunday and Monday morning we went from that game into England camp obviously I was holding bags for you lot but I remember walking in and everyone was laughing because there was I'd hit you and got a yellow card at Watford a couple of times.

8:23There was not a mark on you, and I had a broken hand. It was chill. I can't train. Why aren't you training? Oh, punch, lol. Right, where's the delicacy you're meant to have bought today, Flats? Yeah, the whole thing, Jono, with this is that every week, one of us brings a local delicacy, and I had... A local delicacy? From where we are, where we live, or whatever. So I had... Where do you live? Bath. I live in Bath. So I had a Somerset, a locally sourced tomahawk steak, that you had for dinner well yeah but I was going to did you just eat it all I cooked two so that I could slice one up and I did see it yeah and I did a chicken as well there's a lot of food you're quite you're into your cooking aren't you I'm into my eating yeah look at them I don't know where I put it I'm so lucky you are too I can see whatever I want I'm not putting any weight you turn sideways you disappear mate is that cord shirt I know yeah it is yeah so I cooked it I cooked all this meat but I had do you remember Ollie Cone who played for Quinns for years in the second row Bristol and Quinns Jolly Hog yeah brilliant I had him over and he's a big man and he ate it all.

9:22So I had a backup. I had a backup, some bath soft cheese with some artisan crackers that were made in Bath. Anyway, all very nice. But I've got a lot of fleet of children and I've got two poorly toddlers at the moment and a poorly wife at home. And this morning I got up at whatever time to come here about half six. Cry me a river. Heard a baby cry. My wife is a legend, but she had a massive sense of humour failure. And I think the words were, you've woken her up thanks fucking lot and I was like I couldn't have trod any more lightly but the room I had to go into to get into the kitchen is underneath her bedroom and I was so scared and my wife said could you just fucking go is what she said so I walked out the house and when I was on the m4 I realized the cheese and crackers the cheese is in the fridge it's still in my fridge but my wife scared me this morning so I've left it at home so I got some Pick up ginger nuts.

10:16I got ginger nuts. Pick both up on the way. So I've had one job and that's it and I haven't done it. But next week, next week, yeah? Yeah. You'll do it next week. You won't cock it up, will you? No.

10:36Right, Jono, welcome. This is the first Stick to Rugby podcast with Defender and with you. and we're going to start with a game. Oh, Jesus. And can you not, guys, can you not think of this as forced fun? It's not synthetic fun. Not compulsory fun. No. It's truth or lies, OK? So I'm going to tell you. Lowell, you're out of this one for a minute because I think you probably know everything about Jono at this point. A bit too much. Shanks and Katie, I'm going to give you a statement about Jono and you're going to decide whether you think it's truth or lies. He's the funniest guy you've ever met. He is, yeah.

11:11Right. Jono comes from a sporting family. His grandfather was a wrestler. True or false? True. Do I have to go false or can I go with what I want? Truth or lies? Go with what you want. Truth. Be your own man. Jono. Well, that has actually made its way onto probably Wikipedia or something, but it's actually a lie. So you got it down as true. Well, it says here your great-grandfather was a wrestler, which is also a lie, is it? So there's no wrestlers in your family is what you're telling us? Well... Look, on the first question, we don't actually... It came up from somewhere. Go to TMO, please. You've got no idea what's happening.

11:45I said to my old man, because I think it's on my paternal side, that. I said to my dad, what's going on with that then? He said, well, everyone used to do a bit of wrestling back in the day. Oh, right. Jelly. Yeah. I think technically it's a lie. He wasn't. All right, fine. Wrestlers. All right, fine. But then you can go, there's Jono, the wrestler. Who wins that one? Right, there's no... That's question one, pod one. How many of these have you? We don't really know the answer. It's going really well, Flats. Is it 10 of these? Everything's going well, all right? I know you're both right or wrong.

12:14Jono represented New Zealand at under-21 level, touring Australia in 1990. New Zealand under-21s. Truth or lies? I know it's the truth. Do you? There's photo evidence of you. What happened? Why come they never took you? You're not good enough. Wouldn't get a tattoo. I was supposed to go back the next year because I had another year of eligibility. And I said to Jon Hart, I'd go back the next year. And I got injured. I got injured at the end of that season in New Zealand. so I couldn't go back. Yeah, we went to Australia, played the Aussies in a curtain raiser before Australia-France at the football stadium.

12:52They liked the look of you, though, in New Zealand, didn't they? Well, I was only on the bench because Mark Cooksley was in the team with Blair Larson, who were both all blacks, and Cooksley got injured. They played the New Zealand Barbarians before, and away he got injured, and I had to snuck in there. All counts, doesn't it? Right, Jono's favourite biscuit is a chocolate digestive. Truth or lies? Er... False, I say. False. I think it's a ginger nut. It's a ginger nut. OK. I was going to say that's... Yeah. It's too fancy. Yeah, it's a mood, isn't it? Yeah. I looked at him and said hobnob. You're quite safe, mate, because if you've done a little bit there, you don't have to go in with the ambulance.

13:31There's not many biscuits you'll reject, is it, mate? There's not many biscuits you'll reject if you're in the mood. Here's one. Jono's sporting hero is Eddie Merckx. Do you know who Eddie Merckx is? Oh, mate. What? Guys. Do you know who Eddie Merckx is? No, he doesn't. Go on, tell us. It's cycling. I always used to say, we used to have this little expression, what would Eddie Merckx do? Yeah. That's how I live my life, man. That's what I'm like. What would Eddie Merckx do? Clearly, I didn't follow his... Bobby Davro, and then if not Bobby Davro, Eddie Merckx. Eddie Merckx, Tour de France, legend.

14:07Oh, nice. Well, also Giro d 'Italia. Giro d 'Italia was cycling. Well, I was a true, though. So he had the record over Cavendish, didn't he? Yeah, most Tour de France wins, stage wins, wasn't it, until Mark Cavendish. Was he 34 or 35 he'd won, Eddie Merckx? Well, yeah. I mean, he would have been in the lead in one stage of the Tour de France longer than Mark Cavendish would have been in the lead in all of his wins combined. But yeah, he did have the win. OK. Jono briefly played American football for the Leicester Panthers. Truth or lies? True. You? Lie. Jono? True. True. When was that? Were you a Travis Kelsey tight end?

14:44I tried to be a bit of a tight end. A punted as well. I could kick it. I'm John Heels. Yeah, I could kick it. In the decade, they called the 80s, if anyone remembers. You love American football, don't you? You're still into it? I mean, in that era, people forget there was nothing on television. It was Channel 4 half an hour. That was an hour. So someone said to me the other day, they watched Ski Sunday recently. reminiscing about because on a Sunday there was nothing on TV and then there was Rugby Special then there was Ski Sunday then Channel 4 brilliantly slotted the American football at 6 o 'clock on a Sunday evening and it was it was like watching a sport from another universe I used to watch Kabaly on Channel 4 like in the morning Kabaly you missed some of the praise in the middle mate so I've been watching for 40 years didn't we see you didn't I see you over with the San Francisco 49ers doing something Yeah, I did a documentary out there, and that was a few years ago.

15:42Yeah, it was all good fun. Yeah, I just always liked to watch it, and it was so different, particularly where you think rugby was in those days. Question, though, so now you look at, like, an NFL, the boys going across, Wadey... Lee Sammet. Lee Sammet. Would you have done that? Would you have taken that opportunity? Pathway. Yeah, thank you, NFL pathway. As a game to play, rugby I found far more enjoyable because you're far more involved. it's it's it's very sing very singular yeah you know this is your role this is your job do that little bit and then the play stops and you do your role again so rugby i always found a far better if someone had said to you go out and you know go to i played with a kid a lad who went out and played um he went to high school for a year in the states and played college football out there um so that would have been tempting wouldn't it because the glam the glamour of it would have been very different and 30 million quid a year well everyone talks about the money it is an incredibly ruthless sport well you saw the cut with with reese yeah the lads the lads at the bottom of the food chain your contract's not guaranteed so when reese he signed his contract he's got a contract no no no you have to earn you don't have to go to training camp and get in the squad so you can you can literally sign a contract Monday the next day they get you in the office they'll release you because they need that player.

17:04It's very, very... Cutthroat, isn't it? Yeah, in terms of how many... You're only allowed so many on the squad and who's in it and who isn't. Yeah, it's a bit better. Right. Jono's a Liverpool fan. Truth or lies? Ooh. Lie. True. True. True. You want rubbish? Favourite player ever. Ray Kennedy. Ray Kennedy. Oh, great man. Jesus. The late great... When did that have us born? I don't know, Ray Kennedy. Won the European Cup. So... How come... Real Madrid. Glory Hunter? Yes. But my dad was a Liverpool fan, went to Liverpool Uni, supported them. So in the 70s when you're growing up, your dad's a Liverpool fan.

17:42Yeah, that's what you do. It's easy, isn't it? I remember as a kid thinking, why would anyone support anyone else? Because they're just winning everything. Yeah, they're good. And they're on the telly all the time. Because you couldn't watch everything then. There was only a limited amount of TV. So yeah, Liverpool fan. Ray Kennedy was a midfielder. When they signed Kenny Dalgleish, everyone was a Kenny Dalgleish fan because he was a superstar player. and I thought, as I always do, I'll try and be a bit cleverer and know a bit more than everyone else. But Ray Kennedy was a cool cat. He was smooth.

18:07He was suave. And our brother, sister pod, stick to football, Jamie Carragher, Liverpool legend. I take it you're a big fan of Jamie Carragher. Can you just say you are? I did his podcast, I think, a couple of years ago. Did you like him? Yeah, he's all right. Did he get on with? He's all right. Good guy, yeah. Is his teeth real? I always wanted his teeth. Right, cross my mind. Jono's got more England caps than lol Truth or lies? True No offence I don't know I think lol I don't know I don't know either True I lost count True False Lol's got 85 Jono's got 84 Oh In old money It's probably about 115 now Yeah I'm on the bench It's a lot It's a lot Yeah When Jono was the manager England manager He introduced meditation sessions for all England players in Test Week.

19:01True full eyes. Don't be fooled by that. True, true. False. Sorry. False, come on. Come on, you've been playing. Literally playing. I signed the box. On the way to England's victory parade in London after they won the World Cup in 03, the bust missed the turn-off to pick up the captain and he was forced to walk down the hard shoulder of the M1. It's too random to be false. It's true. True story. Were you with Benny Kay as well? Me and Benny. And you didn't pick up a golf cart and do, you know, anything stupid. There's easier ways. Lucky to be alive. Right. Six Nations, right? Week one, you've got France-Wales on Friday.

19:44You've got Scotland-Italy and Ireland-England Saturday. I read, I remember you talking, Jono, about the Six Nations Grand Slam win in 03 against Ireland as one of the biggest games of your life. and actually one of the only times you feel the hair stand up on the back of your neck, Fields of Athenry and all that. Big day. We actually didn't really, we weren't playing amazing rugby or anything, but we're going for a Grand Slam again and it's Ireland away.

20:15And surprisingly for most people, they were going for a Grand Slam. On the Wednesday before we went out to Ireland, when we had our sort of team meeting with Woody, and he'd always go on. He actually said to us, listen, what you've been through in the last few years is ridiculous. It's crazy. We should have won New England's Grand Slams. And he actually said, look, there's nowhere for this team to go if you lose on Sunday. Yeah, he did say that, yeah. Yeah, which is... I sat there. It's a big statement, right? He said, if we want to win, you have to win. There's nowhere for this team to go. This is World Cup year.

20:51He's not picking anyone else because this is the England team at that point. It's a pretty established team. There's nowhere for this team to go if you lose on Sunday. And normally when you have, you know, we've all been in a million meetings, you don't talk about you've got to win this game because it's assumed you've got to win every game. So we're just there to... I remember him saying it. I'm thinking, Jesus, that is a massive call. Then I thought, you know what? You're absolutely right. He put the pressure right back on the team. He wasn't taking the pressure off, exactly. He wasn't saying...

21:18It's not just another game, lads. Yeah. So we had that... We had a... It sort of added to the mindset. and we just had that thing sometimes when you get into big games people like to talk about rugby and tactics and blah blah blah win it by a point you've won it that's all you remember you know when you win games like that you win either win a grand slam because we'd lose in these grand slams we were scoring tries we were playing some beautiful rugby blah blah blah we didn't win the grand slam we were winning 90 % of our games but the only one people remember is the one you know when England Wales rolls around every year the BBC have got that 99 game on on constant Luke.

21:53Thank you. Cheers, love. We've got record points into either side of that game. No one ever remembers. So he was absolutely right. And we went out on that game and you think, you know what, if we just win by a point, we have a drop goal that goes off the back of someone's head and goes over, we've got a grand slam and that's put to bed and we can move on. So we were touring then from the Hemisphere World Cup. So it was a big, big match. Do you know what, when we went out and normally the night before you get told about the protocol of there's a minute silence, et cetera, No one had said a word to us.

22:23And in my opinion, what people don't realise is that when you're speaking to a forward five minutes before kick-off, you're not dealing with a rational human being, really. You're about to go into a proper... What's the promise of imminent violence? So we got changed on the right-hand side of the stadium, so we ran out right. Well, we also warmed up that side. We'd also warmed up that side, and we were playing that way. they won the toss and they were playing they'd chosen to play is it mad that after all the stuff you've achieved people always ask you about the carpet normally I do remember it though if you're in Ireland that will come up very very quickly yeah but the thing as well we were lined up and it was they sent out I think it was the groundsman's assistant who asked me to move jobs was and I was right you're in that point before a game you're three minutes on four minutes from going into it and it's a huge game it sounds ridiculous when you sat there years later having a coffee it felt like it feels like do or die i mean the coach is saying there's nowhere to go if you lose this game and he's right it was my last six nations i probably knew it you haven't this team hadn't won a grand slam that dominated the tournament for four or five years it was ridiculous so the pressure was enormous and also the island crowd was up to it because normally we'd been there and they'd be underdogs and their crowd would be into it the fervor was immense and when they sang fields of Athenry, that was the only time I've ever had that experience in my life.

23:51Before the game, you thought, we're on here. It was funny though, the bloke came out, I mean, I can't remember, I actually remember, the bloke came out and said, Mr Johnson, Mr Lennon, will you coin your mind moving to the other side of the pitch? You're on Ireland's lucky side of the pitch. He's American then. What part of Denmark was he from? He was from Munster. As soon as we said no first, the crowd went, the crowd, I was obviously gesticulating, I was very animated, the crowd went berserk, the crowd went berserk because they were right there it was the old Lansdowne you're never going to move then what's that well I just get on with it get on with the game because you get messed around a bit when you play test matches away from home at times because people want to mess you around and try and be clever that's fair enough and the blazers are all there leave a shit in the toilet when he walked do you know what's funny though leave a little photo in there a little short go when he realised this poor man that the red list had come down off of Jono Baki he says to Jonathan Kaplan the referee he's from South Africa he says can you kindly ask Mr Johnson and the guy he wants to move and to be fair the referees they're not known for being terribly sort of amusing but there's no chance of these two listening to me when the game kicks off let alone before it kicks off well he didn't want a couple of them didn't want to know did he just sort of stayed out don't blame him it's an iconic moment it's an iconic moment but in fairness everyone says well that was when he won and lost the game it wasn't because no one really talked about it afterwards the thing is did you move?

25:12no Arlen came out and went to the other side of us they moved Okay, so then they missed them. So then the Irish president came out. Which we didn't have any idea who was coming in or what was happening. Because it was just like, you've got a presentation before the game. That's all. And they then say, oh, you made a walk on the grass. The actual truth of it is the Ireland boys made a walk on the grass. Because we still had the red car. But you know, we were lucky enough to go on and win that game comfortably. But I tell you what, that first half was unbelievable. It was 9-3, 9-6 at halftime. Proper terror.

25:42I always say to people, they played better in 0-3 than they did in 0-1 when they beat us. What about this weekend? So, all opinions welcome. You've played fly-off for a long time. Who do you pick this weekend? Bear in mind, people are going to see this before the team's announced, after the team's announced, and all that. Sitting here before the England team is announced, Ireland, England, and Dublin, who do you pick a team? You go Marcus Smith and you put Finn Smith on the bench. Look, I think Ford, he's great. He's great at closing the game up, but he's definitely coming to the end of his career.

26:09I think as a fly-off, I don't get our obsession with not letting fly-offs play fly-offs. It is a history of England. and we try and move 1-12, we ram them into a centre combination. Pick your best five-half. If you look at these guys, Johnny was instrumental to how you played and they were very set on that. And I think for us, I think that's part of England's problem for me at the moment when you have different five-halves for different things and nobody's really sure. Yeah. I mean, well, first of all, going back to this point, if you're Steve Balthwick, you look at those players, you go, where are you going?

26:38If we don't win in Ireland, where are we going from here? You know, start putting a bit of pressure on the players. Start putting a bit of pressure on the team. because last time we played Ireland, we'd just lost to Scotland and we were in a mess at Twickenham and the players responded. So I think they need that pressure. I think Itoji is, you know, he's the guy to take him over there and 2019 was the last time. I think we have this thing that, you know, someone's going to produce some magic at 10. How many times has that happened for anyone? There's so little space there. Most of the time, he tends facilitating the game for everyone else to play.

27:12You know, England-Ireland, opening of Six Nations, it's going to be full-on speed. You've got to try and control a game like that. It's hard enough. I think it's that second wave, though, when you get the ball out the back, when the 10 comes down the corner. I think Marcus Smith is really good at that, of picking out the right options. Off first phase, it is quite difficult, I think. Experience is a huge thing. When you're at Test Match, you explain Test Match Rugby to people. When you've got kids, you're coaching kids, they think the game's all a flash level, and that's great. That's not Test Match Rugby.

27:46That's not Test Match Rugby. Test Match Rugby is do your job. If you can do your job okay and everyone can do their job, then you might put it together to get someone an opportunity to do something. If you think it's all going to be hee-hee, you'll get the big game. You're underselling Walker Smith there because I think, for me, the thing that makes a difference is Test Match Rugby is about small moments. It's about creating something one-on-one, small space. You have to have done... Yeah, of course, but he's not on your board. You have to have done everything else. Yeah, 100%. You have to have done all those other bits right.

28:13But that's not on him, though. That's on those around him. Otherwise, you're 20 points down. And I get that, but I think the reason for me why he would sit there is because if you need somebody, a defender to hold a half a space, the boys game now is about milliseconds, it's about half metres, it's not about full clean gaps. He gives you the opportunity to give somebody else an edge. Two metres, that was a metre. And that, for me, is the difference. I totally get what you're saying around everybody has to do their bit. I would have liked to have seen Finn Smith have more game time than he's had up to now.

28:42Also, there's not that much quick ball in international rugby because the size of the forwards on teams like France and Ireland, it's very, very hard. So you've got to manage the game. Your kicking game becomes so much more part of it. And I'm not saying that Marcus Smith doesn't have a kicking game, but I'm still not entirely convinced that we've got the balance right between kick and running. And the other thing is Ireland are unsettled at 10. Well, this is an interesting one. So you've got Finn Smith isn't as experienced as Marcus Smith, for example. Whoever plays Crowley or Prendergast, Chanks, they're pretty.

29:14They're relatively inexperienced too. And I want to ask you, Prendergast seems to be the kitty, but Crowley's come flying back. He's in really good form. And I just wonder, like, I'm watching Prendergast, and every time he gets the ball, I think, jeez, how is this guy so young? He was good against Quinn. How good is this guy? He looks fantastic. Sorry, he's good against Bath. Yeah, against Bath. But then I wonder, there are a couple of times where he got skittled in defence. I mean, three or four times he got properly skittled. And I thought, you don't need to be Johnny Wilkinson at 10 or a Pollard.

29:43You know, you don't need to be slicing and dicing and smashing people. But actually, you need to put your head in. You need to be in a good body position. And I wonder if you look at him and think, actually, he needs those 5 or 10 kilos that people are talking about. Or who would you stick in it to? You need a good set piece, you know, to put pressure on a team's attack. Because if you're an attacking team and you've got a good set piece, I think it's quite easy. So if your line-out's good and your scrum's good, it's quite easy to target, say, a Prendergast at 10. If that's disrupted, then it has a knock-on effect.

30:13I think where Ireland are a lot stronger in this 10 debate than England are, they've fairly settled the incentives, so they know how they want to attack. So that won't change much, whether it's Bundyaki or whether it's Henshaw. England are still a little bit unsettled there. So the combinations, I think, outside 10 work. Look, Jameson Gibson Park, he's going to play. And then, you know, you look at the back three, Hugo Keenan's back now, James Lowe's going to come back, Matt Hanson's going to come back from a bad... It's fairly settled. I think that's probably, I think, going to be a big positive for Ireland.

30:48When you look at England, whether you pick Fitzsmith or Marcus Smith, outside of that, you still don't know what the combination is going to be. Just very quickly on that game, the last time England beat Ireland, I think it was an unbelievable performance. Marcus Smith, of course, got the headlines because he last-minute drop goal. But the forwards were immense that day. Itoji was immense. George Martin was immense. Oli Chesson, you know. And if England are to do anything over there, they're forwards. Do you reckon, though? They're forwards. And, you know, the Test Match Rugby is about, with all due respect, the big boys sorting out their big boys and then having the quality at 9 and 10 and outside to make the most of that.

31:26If they win that game, though, look at the fixtures. They could go on to win a grand slam. I know everyone hates England winning, particularly if you're Scottish or Welsh, but the reality is, if England win that game, it blows the tournament wide open. Well, I mean, Wales... I mean, I'm just trying to turn it... I'm just trying to turn the guns onto England. Without one to over-dramatise it, where does Welsh rugby go from here? We're looking at second game in. First game, France. France away. Yeah, France away. 9.15 kick-off, French time. that is going to be really tough with the unsettled team late night nightmare traffic it's a nightmare but I think they'll be looking at Italy away second game won the wooden spoon last year Italy away is going to be tough Italy could go alright they could go alright Zebra won recently Benetton beat La Rochelle if you're Wales you're in Paris you have a tough game probably likely to lose you travel straight to Rome don't you don't mess about coming home they're either going to stay in France or they're going to go straight to Rome they're not coming back to Wales but that is the big one because if we beat Italy away that is a positive from where we are moving it on predict everyone predictions for the winner of the tournament the player of the tournament and the wooden spoon yeah top team bottom team best player so okay I'll go first just to calm everyone down England five winners who's your winner?

32:52France win okay France win but everyone loses at least one game no grand slam I don't think there'll be a grand slam and I think the reason France win is that they're scoring so many points at the moment with the likes of Bielbury and Pernod and Dupont. I can't see them going to Dublin and to Twickenham. And to Max Bakker. I'm with him. France win. France win. They get more bonus points because they score so many tries. Do you want to know who's going to be the Six Nations? That makes sense. Look, the Six Nations is probably three leagues at the moment, isn't it? Ireland and France are the top.

33:26it's not rocket science Scotland England in the middle and so you can say it Italy Wales at the moment yeah yeah but everyone's so England and Scotland are trying to beat one England think if they win four games they beat one of Ireland and France and win the other games Premier League Championship I tell you Sione Tupolotu not being fit now I reckon that's bigger than Finn Russell not being fit honestly you're out of order if you think France is going to go to Ireland so you're going I think France, I think if they, they've always got, they've always had very, very good players. If they go and play their best rugby, they've got a chance to win the championship.

34:06You're saying France. France just. Yeah, probably just. France, Ireland. France. France, okay. Who's going to finish last? Bills. No offence. Atlanta, you can't. Go on. Italy. Italy. I'm going to say Italy. Italy. Go on, Jono. I mean I I used to have to get my passport Stamped when I went to Italy because they Put me into the army because They still have national conscript If you believe me that would be a treat being put in the Italian army Wales bottom Wales right I'm desperate to say someone other than Antoine DuPont but watching all the European games Well it's a bit like you know It's a bit like Frankel if he's running Yeah it's like What do you do I reckon one of the French back threes Penelope, Louis Biel Bieri Gibson Park Gibson Park, Biel Bieri I think Cain and Doris won't be far away Dupont is a generational player he's turning into that which is fantastic for rugby to have a world superstar amazing

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36:53That's B-O-M-B-A-S.com and use code audio at checkout.

36:59Stick to Rugby is brought to you by Defender. Right, I want to talk about captaincy, please. Lawrence, you were England captain. I've forgotten why that ended and it was given to Jono. Any awkwardness? What happened? I'll tell you what happened. Well, for a start, when I came into the England team, I wasn't England captain. And when I left the England team, I wasn't England captain. So there's no divine right or desire to be England captain, actually. But Jono was a skipper in the Lions in 1997, which we'll get on to, which was probably one of our greatest ever rugby experiences. And then Clive, for some strange reason, chose me as England captain.

37:36Do you think he thought you were unmanageable otherwise, uncaptainable? He didn't know me. To be fair, he didn't know me. You've only got to know you for five minutes to think, who's going to captain you? I didn't know him. But anyway, listen, going back to 1999, obviously we had that terrible decision that I made. I'll never forget Jono looking at me in the game. We lost because of my decision, but we gave away so many penalties in the first half that it was whatever. I'm still taking the blame. And Jono goes, are you sure that's the right call? And I went, yeah. And to be fair, he backed me.

38:07He probably should have said, no, lol, change your mind. But anyway, he backed me. And it was a terrible decision. And do you know what made it even worse? We lost. It was probably the worst feeling I've ever had as a player when I had to walk all the way back off the pitch with my mates. And not only have Wales beaten us, in Wembley. Can you imagine? You always dream of playing at Wembley. Yeah. But not a home game against Wales. And then it meant that Scotland won the last ever Five Nations title as well. So it's a double stabbing. And as I'm walking off down the tunnel, I knew it was all down to me, really.

38:41And this Welsh supporter gobbed on me, right? Straight in the face, right? massive greening straight in my face. And at moments like that, you just think to yourself, I understand why Eric Cantona did what he did. I felt like I was kung fu-ing him into the... And I walked into that dressing room, and it was like death. I mean, there were growing men in tears. And I don't know, winning and losing is very different nowadays. I mean, we hated losing. I didn't speak to anyone for about six or seven days. I don't think I didn't go out of the house. Then, when I did go out of the house, I was on the front page of the news of the world.

39:13so that didn't work out so well for me I've got to be honest with you it wasn't my finest week not a great week we lost the Grand Slam to Wales at Wembley and the following week I went deep underground in disguise and yeah Jono was made England captain you're still here though mate aren't you? yeah the news of the world aren't correct correct mate so you get made captain Jono and I think there's a did you what happens is when people look back on your career and while you were captain, they said, well, you're obvious choice, obvious leader. Was that, did you feel like, you don't want to call yourself an obvious leader, but did you slip quite comfortably into that role of man amongst men?

39:54Well, I think what people don't realise is that I was still me when I wasn't captain and Lawrence was still him when he wasn't captain. So we still did the same job, more or less, in the team. He still, you know, we've all got our own personalities and the way we do things. So Lawrence would still speak in team meetings and on the field and whatever, and I would do my job and other senior players would do their job. How teams work often, particularly then, maybe it's a bit more structured now, is they just do. Guys, you know, come in, they just take roles as they sort of fits their personality.

40:29Some guys are very, very quiet and they won't say anything, but they'll lead with their actions and what they do. And Richard Hill would be a classic example of that. Did you speak to Loll once that kind of change had happened? Did you guys have a conversation It was just like, Martin's in, I'm going to follow him now. Well, you didn't go on tour, did you? You didn't go to Australia. So we're off, was it? He wasn't with us. Well, Mr. Depp, I was on a charge of bringing the game into disrepute. So we didn't see him. I think I spoke to you briefly on the phone. Went to Thailand for a bit. And then when we came back, it was sort of, we'll just get on with the World Cup camp, really.

41:02So it was... I mean, to be fair, you know, listen, it was... How long were you captain of Leicester? I mean, I've been captain of what? I was May captain in 1995, and I was captain right the way through to 2007. So, you know, you were captain of Leicester for a long, long time. I mean, I think there should be a ruling that every club in the premiership should be captained by an England player. And, you know, you get that experience. Because being a captain, you know, yes, everyone does their jobs, but it is something that you can become better and better at the more you play because you become a better rugby player and you've got good people around you.

41:44And I don't think England have had anywhere near enough leadership within the senior playing group for a long, long time. Maritone has only just become captain of Saracens. He's a world-class player, but he's still finding his way in terms of how to... Before, like, 2005, we used to look at, like, when we'd play England and we'd look at the players on the team ship, and it would be, like, Jono, Lol, Hilly, Backey, Greens, Tins. And then we look at our, like, nicknames. It'd be Melon, Nugget, Jughead, Grub. Bonkai. Bonkai. Swannack. That's it. Bom. Swan neck. Oh, very good. Do you remember when we walked into the Welsh dressing room and somehow they had these giant...

42:30Oh, we had them, didn't we? Life-size cutouts, right? Of the entire Welsh... On the Friday, when he went to the stadium on the Friday for a little round. Of the entire Welsh team. Went in the changing room and all the cutouts were in the changing room. Trying to scare you. Do you look back to 03 and you're there, you play, I think I'm right in saying you play every minute of every game. I've never thought of this until today, but you were England captain, then you weren't, but you're still in the team. Jono's captain, he's the person who lifts that World Cup. Is there any part of you that thinks that could have been me or does that not enter the mind?

43:06No, don't be silly. Of course it doesn't. I'm a proud Englishman, it doesn't matter who... And to be honest, Jono looked very awkward lifting it up. That is your man. You're not great about this. He's got a lot of experience lifting traffic. I promise you now, Jono's absolutely right. In that changing room, if I had something to say, I didn't need to be captain. Exactly, yeah. And vice versa. We had so many players who'd all captain. Jonny was captain at Newcastle. Phil Vickery was captain at Gloucester. I was at Wasp. Matt Dawson was captain at Northampton. Jono was at Leicester. We'd been together as a team a long, long time as well.

43:38so you can be bored of listening to people after a while what I did realise is that the relief of winning that tournament a bit like everything else was it was just there and when we were in that dressing room afterwards I think we've all said this a couple of times I knew that that was the best feeling we ever had because it had been a long journey six years from 1997-2003 we get in that dressing room and we shut the door eventually John Howe was throwing the medals on us and there was no camera phones there was none of that nonsense going on. It was just unbridled joy and happiness. You and your mates.

44:11I mean, there were people in tears, there were people, you know, just so happy. And you just wanted to hold on to that because for that hour, you knew that as soon as that door opened again and we walked out, that our lives would change it. I mean, you know, he walked out and retired the next week, I think. Right at the top. Yeah. I think in terms of captaincy, that's as easy as it gets because you're dealing with a hugely experienced, settled team. We all knew each other. management knew each other very well so you've worked out all those little bits that need to be worked out and gone through those those bits there so in terms of a of a captaincy it was easy because everyone everyone knew what they were doing you've got senior players when you're in you know last year with Wales with you know captaining that team that's hard work yeah yeah that that's a coaching and captain when you're teams like that you're all young no one really knows no one's done it no one wants to speak up well they haven't been there no yeah i want to ask you about england's captaincy in a sec but i just that's difficult while we're talking about england winning the world cup you won it and these guys talk about unbridled joy relief spoken to johnny wilkinson a lot about it and it was oddly a massive relief and an anti-climax at the same time because hang on a minute this thing that's been there this aim this goal this life this life goal is suddenly gone so what did you feel so you're in the change rooms and everything's i'm sure you know there's the old smartphone knocking about but it's just you and your mates it's you and the girls and the backroom staff who are your mates they're your you know did you would you describe it in similar words it's so similar and the things you talked about leadership group and the team we'd lost in 2010 there hadn't been a lot of changes so the group itself the dynamics that leadership group very very similar we'd work through all the like clunky bits to know each other knew when somebody needed to tick, just because you didn't have a title, you could speak, like it was very, very similar.

46:01But yeah, I think for me, it was an overwhelming relief. Like England had won a World Cup for 20 years. New Zealand had beaten us three times prior to that, then faced Canada. But it wasn't, John describes it as a, like you say, an anticlimax. For me, it was literally changed, I think that my outlook on life. It was like a weight lifted. And actually every rugby from that moment was so different because I wasn't chasing something. I always had it. nobody could ever take it away. And I think I got a lot more joy from the rest of my career. Oh, right. I'd hate to look at the other side. If we lost that final, I'm not sure which country would I exile myself to and go and find a little hole and hide in it.

46:40The captaincy side is interesting. So Steve Borthwick, I played with Borthwick for a long time. He captained me for a long time. I thought he was an outstanding captain. When you were England manager, You had him in your team as captain. He has now had a really tough period in terms of results, really tough autumn, and he switched the captaincy from Jamie George to Maratoji. So what do you make of that decision? And again, it's a different captaincy scenario than we're talking about your World Cup. They're in a slump, right? Yeah, it's interesting. And to actually take it off a player who was fit and still there is quite a big call.

47:19At 24 hours notice. notice as well. Yeah, it's quite a big call and you will, you know, I think he said publicly, you know, it's a blow, isn't it? You know, there's a reason what, you know, we won four out of 11 games under Jamie George's captain. Now, with all due respect, I think we all agree that Jamie George should have been captain of England about four years ago when he was absolutely, in my opinion, at the peak of his powers and, you know, as much as I love Owen Farrell and I really do, I think he had enough responsibility playing at 10 and all the best captains in the world tend to be I mean not the best captains but it's just the nature of the game is the referee is everything decision is given in and around the breakdown so why would you not have a forward as captain and I just feel with Itoji he's now taking it on it's a gamble but it's a gamble that Steve has to take now he's got to roll the dice and as gambles go Maro is a low risk player I mean okay there's the odd penalty but he is touch wood likely to play 80 minutes most tests he's only been subbed twice I wonder if it says to me that I don't think Borthwick doesn't think Jamie George's automatic first choice and regardless of what anyone said during the autumn he sees value in having a captain who starts the game and ends the game yes that's the big thing to go off like 60 minutes you're watching it going that's you know it's like anything the first 60 minutes is to give yourself a chance to win the last 20 unless you're winning the game.

48:48You want your best players on the field at the end of the game. So you need, you know, that's when those decisions, you don't get that many of those really crucial decisions in your career that you sort of win or lose a game on, but they do happen. And you need that guiding presence there at the end of the game. That's when you do need your leadership because that's when, you know, everything's, if you're in a tight game, the pressure is immense, isn't it? That last 20. and the longer it goes the bigger every decision is the tense the whole thing gets tight that's when you need your if your captain's off yeah I've not got that I mean it's been happening for 10 plus years hasn't it 20 even longer everyone goes off mate this is it this is the moment it's going to be interesting as well with the discipline side of it because Itoji he's a brilliant brilliant player like we didn't give penalties no we didn't no no no what I'm saying is being captain normally buys you one or two At least they don't chin anyone.

49:46If I was you one or two, get out of jail. Do you know what? I must tell this, because Clive Woodward, we obviously had an issue with discipline going into one Six Nations Championship. I can't remember which one it was. Clive gave us a videotape, and I think he gave it to me, which obviously was basically all he needed to do. And he said, Lawrence, I think you need to discuss discipline with the group, with the team. So I thought I'd have a video recorder in my room at the time, obviously, and a bar and a microwavable for it. Anyway, I put the tape in. steady I put the tape in and basically it was about 38 penalties that England had given away in the last six games and a third of them I gave away the other third Jason Leonard gave away and the other third Martin Johnson gave away and I thought to myself Clive's quite smart here because I don't really need to discuss this with the team so I picked up the phone to Jono and Jason said a little meeting in my room and we put the tape in and we went hmm I think we need to I think we need to rein it in a little bit adjust that But what I'm saying is, as a captain, that relationship with the referee.

50:52I mean, Jono, funnily enough, we did something for the World Cup final where they made us sit and watch a replay of the World Cup final. Now, for 21 years, I've been carrying the burden of thinking that I gave away the final penalty that sent the game into extra time. Yeah, you didn't? I didn't until we watched it. Well, I thought I had. Who did? No, the penalty. You said something. You unburdened me. The penalty that went into extra time was at scrum. The penalty that went to level during extra time was possibly me. But you watch it. Possibly. I think Australia, if you watch it, you go, Australia are far more lost in that rock.

51:33It was Andre Watson, wasn't it?

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53:211997, Lions Tour. The things I remember are, I was 17. Yeah, but going to school. Going to school. In between, yeah, studying. Oasis, wonderful. Oasis, wonderful. I remember Jerry's I remember John Bentley being on the wing scoring one good try and he's lived off it ever since but he's done more than that Is that the old Transvar? The Transvar I remember Jerry's dropped goal and I remember the Living With Lions DVD which is the greatest still one of the greatest if not the greatest sporting documentary I ever watched but was it as monumental for you guys as it was? That's one of the reasons why, genuine now why I wanted to play rugby watching that DVD DVD, I think, was the best rugby documentary you'll ever, ever get.

54:06I watched it, I thought, that's what I want. In terms of experience, it's the best, you know, it's the best rugby experience I've ever had in my life. I guess it was pro, but it was full of lads who'd been amateurs. The last amateur, first professional tour, really. Yeah, I think a couple of things. I think years later, when you hear a lot of people say that about that video, you know, which was great, because it was genuine fly on the wall. you know we were so used to them being there which sounds ridiculous I remember when they came in with a camera and we were going to be here and said if you want us to go we'll go and they just got used to them being there and when I went down to watch look at the tape look at the edit and they've got footage inside the changing room for the first test where it is nervous beyond you know you're going out to play them and we were very very inexperienced team.

54:54Well, the Telfer speech. Yeah, all the net. When he's put the net out over the chairs. The scrummaging sessions. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The whole thing is just... It's powerful, isn't it? So lucky to have it because for us it's a reminder because you know what it's like years later, you go, yeah, Jim gave us a great speech. You wouldn't be able to recall to have it on video. But also on that tour, I always say, if I could be anywhere in my career again, go back, I'll be on that tour. Oh, really? Yeah. Not only with the Lions, but with the rugby we played was absolutely phenomenal. And the midweek team were phenomenal.

55:29Whatever the team was, it wasn't the midweek team. I remember I played, my first game was the third game where we played Western Province in Cape Town. And you know what it's like when you're on tour, first game's big and then, oh, the first big provincial game. So we were playing them at Newlands.

55:48I mean, we were scoring tries, they were scoring tries. I was trying to talk to the team at one point I couldn't breathe because it was that fast the game was that fast and that furious and I was fit in Cape Town

56:04the game was that fast seven feet above sea level he's always at altitude if you don't know in the second half I was talking to Ian about this when we had that catch up the other year Rob Howley made a break the game got a bit last short and Rob's got it and he's just gone across and he's straightened up and he just turned on the jets and he's gone straight to the middle of them and I was near him when he made the break and then I'm 20 yards away all of a sudden and he's flying up the pitch and they all sort of converged on him and he's just thrown one off his left hand 25 yards to Jain who's just ran onto it straight onto it and he still needed finishing and he scored it I remember that one you remember it I remember watching that live going well we can play I mean that's world class that's proper because you know that's like these guys can play and Jain scored it and his face was like 50 % this is what we do and 50 % oh that was tasty lunch just deposited and we put you know we put 30 points on whatever and you know we could you're thinking oh we've got some players yeah you know we've got some players I mean South Africa hadn't had much exposure they didn't come out of post apartheid we were the first team in England in 94 97 they were world champions but I just remember the group that was assembled both the coaching staff and the playing staff and the batman staff was just immense And Fran Cotton, who'd won, the only two teams that had ever won in South Africa were the 74 Lions and the 96 All Blacks.

57:28So it's not an easy thing to do. And I think when Fran Cotton turned up and gave his first speech. And Geach and Jim, just a great combination. And the rugby IP there was incredible. And then to have those guys who come back from league with their knowledge, not just defence. Everyone talks about defence of the league, but actually they were clinical. if you're playing professional rugby league you get a chance to score you don't score was it Gibbsy it was Alan Tate John Bentley Bentley Bateman yeah Alan Bateman yeah and Scotty Quinella come back yeah and I remember I love watching John Bentley on that tour yeah yeah or Ben Ben Ben Ben Ben Ben Ben Ben Ben Ben Ben Ben Ben Ben Ben Ben Ben

58:16and you gave him an opportunity to score. And Bentos was just vocal. I mean, we... You know, the rugby teams then, the backs never said anything. The backs were very, very quiet on the field, generally. It was beautiful. Well, it didn't, did they? It was a different... The backs were generally pretty quiet. Certainly in the England team, you know, they weren't vocal. You suddenly had Bentos out on the training field, smashing people with a bag. You get out on the field, and he's going to guys, I'm going to terrorise! He's shouting 40 minutes to James Small. I'm going to terrorise you. Do you know what it's going on?

58:49I'm the lunatic on the field. Do you know what I do remember is that Ian McGeek decided to take Will Greenwood, who was uncapped. It's an incredible selection. Let's just bring it forward to this tour. Incredible selection. Martin Johnson was captain. Never captained a club. Never captained a club, so it was a big call. And then Will Greenwood was an uncapped player. And so who do we think is the right person to captain this tour coming up? Yeah. and is there a Will Greenwood? Because the majority of the team will come from the Six Nations, but there's no reason why you can't go outside of that.

59:24Andy Farrell's got a remit. Are we all agreeing that Cain and Doris, if he performs well... People are saying Doris or Marrow are Cain. A lot of people are capped early because they don't want to lose into another country, so... Yeah, it's quite a bigger... In 1993, I went on a reserve as a Lions tour, and you could only pick guys off the Five Nations because watching a club game then was so different to what they play now. There was no Europe. It was very difficult. So all you could do was go, who played well in the Six Nations? Now, in 97, we had Europe and they could pick some guys. That was an incredible selection.

59:57Could pick some. Squads are bigger now. I think that someone to come in from outside of a squad would be, won't happen because anyone who's any good will be in a squad somewhere and have had some time. The squads are so big. Yeah, and they're all getting on the field. I think Jack Willis has got a great chance and he's not in the England squad so there is one of two those guys who are abroad but the only thing with Doris I always think Will Carlin was unlucky he was a captain of the Lions that's what he says well if you think about it if you had a good year you were Lions captain Will did consecutive Grand Slams in 1991-92 and the team I went with in 93 I remember Debbie had seven England forwards in the pack and Gav was captain Gav was a great captain and fully deserved it but there was a big England bias at that point and not having an England captain I can see why because who took this place is it Gibbsy Scott Gibbs well we'll play the first I think Gibbsy came in I think when we just before 97 France won the five nations and we finished second and you know John is right if you play well if you play well against your opposite number we had 18 players from England picked on that on that lines it didn't feel it didn't feel like that because in a way to me because like you say Will Greenwood was in there and he hadn't played in the Six Nations England's starting centres in the Six Nations neither went on that tour which was Will and Phil de Glanville and we took Gerry and we took Will Greenwood Gomer's played nine for England that year and we had three England scrumages on that tour and none of them was gone.

1:01:40So it was a hell of a selection. A guy like Nick Beal went on that trip. Ely. Yeah, who was a hell of a player, but he hadn't played that much. How did you find out? Can I just ask that? Because obviously now... C-Fex. Was it? Pitching? Yeah. Was it a letter through? Was it a phone call? Did you find out? I got... In 97, I got a phone call so I was captain. Yeah. Fran phoned me. But I think most guys... Was it a letter on that? It was a letter. It was actually that wonderful thing of handwritten letter. Beautiful. You still got it? Yes, I have. But remember, in 97, because it was the brave new world, it was on TV in the morning on Sky Sports.

1:02:27And we all went to the ground in the morning, because we had six Leicester players, I think, around three. None of us knew until we heard it on TV. So we went and did a press conference at the ground in the morning and then played you guys in the evening in a midweek, played a midweek game against Wasps in the evening. You're literally just sitting, watching TV to whether your name comes up. Yeah. And it's actually lovely because there's that... It's all right if it comes up. It's lovely. There's either two emotions, isn't there? Unbridled joy or complete misery. Jono, let's talk about your time as England coach.

1:02:59I want to preface this with a memory of mine, which was the opening ceremony at Twickenham. They did this thing where it was almost the stadium went dark and they put a spotlight on one representative at a time. And I think from my memory is the spotlight hit you and the place went absolutely mad. And there were people crying. I don't know if you're aware of this. There were people in tears. It's a national treasure. I was sitting, I think, about other people. Yeah, what's he doing? I was sitting and I was sitting, I remember sitting with Martin Bayfield at the time. And we both sitting there and we both looked at each other and everyone had tears in their eyes.

1:03:34It's a really lovely moment. and it was almost like it then occurred to me because you're concentrating on what you're doing and what am I going to say here and when are we on and when are we off and all that it occurred to me that you might not have been back in the spotlight at Twickenham since you were England head coach so do you remember yeah do you remember that moment you don't get a little you don't get a walk a walk pass do you no like walking past the back of the like a little double decker bus around the pitch do you remember do you remember when you were you accepted the job to being the coach I think when you were thinking about it and you and I had a phone call and I think you said to me, what do you reckon?

1:04:07And I said, I mean, it was an inmate because you'd only been retired for three years. So I don't think that, I mean, no disrespect, that would only have ever been offered to you because under no circumstances would they give the job to someone who's only been out the game for, well, not even out the game, three years. Do you know what I mean? It's very unusual to get the top job, but I mean, England have made a habit of doing that actually a few times since then. So when you look back... but he phoned me he phoned me and he said what do you reckon and I said well you know give us a job don't give us a job to be assistant I'm very honest I said do you need a social secretary I said I said you know who are you going to pick as your coaches and the question I really wanted to ask you is you walked into a set up that already had England coaches there yeah a few and and you know I think that's quite a difficult environment to walk into well I knew I knew I knew the guys are already in there John Welter etc but sometimes it's nice to go in there and actually have your own put your own stamp on it immediately but your record for England as England coach is actually that's alright we won the championship that year that first year actually we had quite a few of the older guys come back and did alright we beat France didn't we at Twickenham at the end of it and then the next year they were all gone I remember the Lions went in 09 and we came back for the autumn in 09 and we had something like 11 of the team that had beaten France at the end of the previous season weren't available.

1:05:40So that nine autumn was tough. 20, 10, six nations, I'm trying to remember what, lost to Ireland and we beat Wales. And then we started getting a few new good young players. Ben Youngs came through, Dan Cole came in, Youngs, he went to Australia. You went on that trip, didn't you? we beat them in the second we beat australia away in the second test after not really that was a that was a big win and actually that then we beat australia again then we chris ashton came through he'd come through at the end of that yeah benny foden had come in and actually developed quite a few so it wasn't a bad team at the start of 2011 and we only lost the we nearly got the way i went for the grand slam didn't we in ireland got beaten won the championship yeah there is there is There's a presumption amongst at least the English rugby public that there's a couple of things which are the experience, because it didn't end...

1:06:38Yeah, it ended like it ended, but it wasn't... It scarred you and it's a sporting tragedy that you're no longer involved with the England team or with English rugby. Do you view it that way? No, not really, no. I mean, at the end of it, we got beaten by France, didn't we, in the quarterfinal, who were a decent team. We'd beaten them in the Six Nations where we lost a close court final and went out. They nearly won the World Cup with a relatively inexperienced team. So in those terms, we didn't qualify four years later. We didn't even get to the pool stages, did we? With a more experienced team, potentially.

1:07:11In hindsight, you think you would have... I remember you said to me, and I would have done exactly the same, I'm going to take this job because I don't know if I'll ever get off again. Yeah, it is. But ideally, it would have been ideal if you'd have been in coaching a bit longer before you took the job. Yeah, of course. Ideally, yeah. idea and did you and you had such high standards and values as a person as a player yourself I feel like maybe you held a lot of the players in that squad to your standards and values and I think you were let down by quite a few of them ultimately you get in the papers for being drunk and disorderly right oh don't worry I know that

1:07:52we've all been on a rugby trip the first one The first one, the Ireland lads have been into that same bar and been a lot looser by all accounts, but never made the papers. Yeah, Brian Dreskel was fetched out. Yeah, so it's one of those where you're just going, guys, these things happen. It's just now all over the papers. We've been on rugby tours. These things happen. It just gets made into this. Once the cat's out the bag and they're all over you, they're all over you. Especially in New Zealand, because you're a threat to national security. We said to the players, just rein it in because you're in New Zealand, don't do this, this and this.

1:08:31And some of them did that, that and that. What goes through your head then when you get the knock on the door to say, boss? The cat's out the bag. Someone's jumped off the floor by a ferry. Yeah, yeah. You might as well at that point, have you? You might as well at that point. You're out of the tournament. You might as well jump off the ferry. But it was just like one thing after another. But then the cat's out the bag. And they're all over it. You've got all the tabloid media out there. So you're done. You're almost done because you can't fight that at that point. When you win, the likelihood is you're going to go out and have a few beers and enjoy yourself and no one really minds.

1:09:04When you lose, I said, you're not going to go out. We're going to go upstairs and discuss why we lost, who was responsible, and that's it. But do you, all the English rugby public presume that that episode was sufficiently scarring, that that is why we don't see you on the front line of English rugby anymore. is that the case or are you just happy watching from a distance yeah i mean we say yeah it wasn't a great period but it's like you you in your life you have you have things that go incredibly well and i've been incredibly lucky to do if you said to me you're going to do this in your career when you're 11 years old decent no it's not gonna happen to get paid for it so but you know you you you have you have ups and downs in your life it's just part part of it so scarring yeah it wasn't great but you know it doesn't it doesn't um the god there's worse things can happen to people than that you are still involved in rugby because your son is now well you know catching kids the last few years what are you like as a as a sideline rugby dad because we've got to be honest when you when you turn up on you know i turned up in richmond and there was jason leonard and michael lyden we all arrived at the same time and it will be it they were in the under eights It's the first time ever I could actually be there on a Sunday to watch my son play, Enzo.

1:10:19And I bumped into Jason. He had Jack and Lewis Liner. And we gave it to one of the dads and said, see, get on with those three. And talk about chip off the old block. I mean, Jason's son, Jack, just went around punching every child in the first. Lewis Liner could spiral kick off both feet. And Enzo spent the whole time cheating, basically. Is your son, do you see the traits of you as a player in your son, Henry? Well, he's got, I mean, of course, he's got genes. He's a better athlete than I ever have been. He's got speed. He's got some speed. So he's got that, obviously, from the maternal genes.

1:10:56But, yeah, look, it can be difficult. It depends how you're going, doesn't it? I mean, if they get injured or whatever. Is he second round? No, he's a bad one. Do you think my son said to me, Dad, if it's all right with you, I'm not going to be a professional rugby player. I've got ambition slightly higher than that. Well, they're going to do... I think... Some people have the misconception that you want your kids to do what you did. Your kids are always going to find the way that... They're going to hopefully find something they love to do and do it, and do it with a passion. That's all you can ask them to do.

1:11:28My boy, he played a lot of football. I encourage him to play a lot of football because I think it's really good for him. But then he said, I want to play rugby. I want to go back and play rugby, and off you go. Are you relaxed on the sidelines, or...? No. I can be. Yeah, you can't argue. I've had my moments, definitely. But it's... Look, they're also kids as well. You're young, you're watching it. And we did the thing sort of seriously and properly. And you can get drawn into that. You know, when you... I coached him at Club Rugby when he was younger. And you've got the whole mix. You've got the kids who were watching rugby at home.

1:12:05They want to learn and do everything. And you've got some kids who don't. And they had to understand that. Jono, have you offered yourself up for the dad's game at all? Oh, no, I'm not. Not yet, anyway. No. Imagine. No, I can't imagine, yeah. I'll bring my mates. You just want, when you see them having fun with their mates with rugby, that's when... That's it, yeah. That's what it's all about. They're the memories you'll have of being with your mates, doing all... And they're so... I mean, he went to South Africa with his school. I mean, you watch him and go... Oh, what an experience. So they were at Loftus.

1:12:34I'm getting photos. They're on Loftus' number one pitch, training at Loftus. They let them on there. Yeah, it's a wicked stadium. And people go, oh, that's lovely. I'm going, lovely? You jammy bastards. I had to be 25 before I was allowed to play on Loftus. Yeah, got your egg kicked in. And the Springboks, the Springboks were training. They watched them train. They're fair play, the Springboks. They had a photo with them all, sat all tentatively in the stand at Loftus. That's him there. That's his son. That's him doing. At 15, they get to do that. I mean, unbelievable. That's wicked, isn't it?

1:13:03Jono, thanks, mate. That is all we've got time for. Loved Avenue. Thanks very much. Eat the ginger nuts now. Eat the ginger nuts, yeah.

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