The Overlap Live from Rome with Marcel Desailly!

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3:17Every weekend you had to play against Duncan Ferguson, Nile Queen or Shearer. I still have... Sneaky. Sneaky. We were obsessed with it. We were obsessed with the Italian league back then. What's happened? Technically, you had players like Edgar Davids, Patrick Vieira. Who? Patrick Vieira. All the top players don't want to be rotated. They don't. So, Rodgers come back from a long-term injury, and the common sense is, how would he get back up to his very best? That would be games. First corner. Boom! He scored a goal. I remember I fall on the floor, and I look at my teammates all around, they were all like, oh, World Cup winner.

4:09Letting everyone settle down. So we're delighted to be here at the 32nd General Assembly of the ECA or the first General Assembly of the EFC as of the rebrand of last night. And we were sat backstage and thinking about what we're going to say. and we're obviously here in the midst of some of the most influential people in club football. And we asked ourselves the question, what does a good club owner look like? Opposite to you, Gary. That's from a point of view of a player, a coach and a fan. Cara, right, who's going to start us off? A good owner. I think when you were a player, I think in some ways you'd have supporters all saying, We want to hear from the people at the top.

4:54We want to hear from our owners. But I don't think really football clubs do in some ways. I think if you keep a sort of steady stance when things are going well, don't say too much because when things are not going well, if you've spoke before, people want you to speak again and then you might have to ask questions about or answer questions on the manager's future, which is not easy for a football club. So I think really good owners support the manager. obviously we're talking about spending buying players we'll have a good structure at the club you know support the manager but I don't think saying too much in public is a too clever a thing to do I just think it puts you on the spot when things are not going so well Do you not think that from a point of view of football club owners the responsibility to communicate to the fans at all points during the season not all points during the season but maybe once twice a year where they formally communicate with the fans You're talking about an AGM I'm talking about I think football clubs as being more of a they're not public bodies because they're businesses and we know that and obviously I own a football club myself but the responsibility to this community that ultimately supports them do you not feel there should be an element of having to consistently communicate on a buy or yearly basis?

6:03In terms of results or in terms of just general? No, updating general sort of plans and making... I think they should be accessible and accountable a good owner. You look at... I think with a good owner you know you're kind of looking at a situation where there can't be a perfect owner Because everything you do, people are going to have a problem with what you do, what your intent is. So that's what you've got to be judged by, your intent. Who can I say? Tony Bloom, Brighton. You look at someone like Tony Bloom, he's accessible, he's accountable. He does invest very well in the club. He's got the club's history and the club's priorities very high in what he's doing.

6:43The women's team, the youth team, everything about the whole club is our, what you should be as an owner. Everything, encompassing everything of the club. I think you don't want to know too much about tactics and stuff like that. I think in the past I've had someone probably trying to tell me how we're playing midfield. An owner? Well, kind of in them roles, yeah. They were like, you should be attacking more and stuff like that. But I think obviously they've got rules to look after the financial side of the club. But you still want to see the passion. They own your club and I think as fans, you want to see that passion come through, a little bit of emotion.

7:17but then keeping the logic approach of keeping the club kind of financially stable, I would say. I will have a reference on owners back in the days. Silvio Berlusconi, Adriano Gagliani. They knew exactly what they were doing. They were giving their best to the club to be able to perform. They were doing so well that the player was feeling guilty. Guilty because everything was available for them and they had to perform. When there were a problem, they were really there to support constantly the player because he has to be like that. Even though when the performance is not there, you need to continue to support and to be able to give the best for the players to continue to have the belief.

8:04And when the player have the belief, then it works around the player to try and surround as better you can for the people who deliver the service around the player. to be effective because it's key to create a club. And back in the days, AC Milan was really the best club on organisation. The owner was really on point. What do you think about owners coming into the dressing room? I don't like it. And executives? I don't like it. When you win something, of course, the owner comes in and you see the owner and you're great to see him. What's the owner doing? So our executives at United for 20 years of playing and the chairman and it came into the dressing room after every match.

8:49Really? Every match. No one would probably realise that. So Sir Alex Ferguson, if you remember, the chairman, the executives, the directors would come into the dressing room with a blaze on Sir Bobby Charlton after every single game. Dean used to come in after every game. Win, lose, or draw. And I used to like it because I think before I was asking about what owners, I think owners should be consistent. It's different when the owner, the actual owner comes in because you'll stand to attention a bit more when he comes. I used to like it. Well, yeah, it depends what the reason they're coming in for.

9:16That's why you're making it with the United. They were coming in just, you know, saying hello and just showing their faces. If you're not about owners coming in and maybe, I think it's... Champions League win. Or just coming in to have a go, players. I've read stories about that. But I think people coming in and saying, shaping it, I think that's fine, that's no problem. It's when owners start coming in. All the time. And start, or coming onto the pitches, obviously it's not used to, certainly not in the premiership, then that's a new one for players to say. They might get in trouble if they came into the women's changing room.

9:44So maybe that's all right. OK, next question. We were sat there last night thinking in front of all these people, what's the one thing that we would, we love the game, we're passionate about it, we watch it every single week. What's the one thing that we would change if we could to make the game better, more entertaining, flow more? Maybe we have to increase, you know, when the players come out of the field, you know they lose a lot of time more changes you know we have five today substitutions we should maybe see on increasing a little bit more more subs more subs yes because more games more subs probably in the years coming things have to change why more subs Marcel because I think the game is stopping all the time during the second half it's just driving me crazy we want the game to flow We want the game to be constant.

10:41Yeah, but the numbers on the squad will increase in the future. You have more competition. You should be able to have a little bit more players into the system to be able to keep the performance over the games. So you just mentioned there's more games in the future. We'll need more players, bigger squads, looking after players. But do you think it's right that we're having more games and more competitions? Yeah. Do you think we're pushing players too fast? Yeah, we had a lot of controversy with the Club World Cup. And no, anyway, you have to, if it's not Club World Cup, it was Confederation Cup or another type of tournament.

11:16The year before World Cup, you need to have a competition to improve or test the infrastructure that is being built, especially for the World Cup. So the only thing that was a problem for me on that competition is that it was not the elite only that was playing, because it was club. So when is the elite? When you're an elite, you're an international player. You need to be able to face the repetition and the numbers of matches that are coming into the system. I am the elite. Yes, there's more matches, but I have to careful more of my diet, of my sleeping, and many more, because now they are getting paid much more than at our time.

11:52So I don't see the problem with the numbers of matches. Is it mental more than physical? Because the sports science is fantastic. Once you are the elite, you need to be able to cope with the intensity of what the game is asking. You're certainly able to tell. Marcel, you look at Rodri. Rodri was speaking about how many games. And if we're talking about elite, then we're talking about Rodri. And, like, I'm sure that Rodri's got everything he needs in respect of diet and nutrition. Everything he needs, he still got injured. He got injured again the other day, and he was complaining about the amount of games.

12:23so whether you're elite or not when you're having that much of that many football matches you will in the current moment you will break down that's what you will see I think there's got to be a way to find where you can play maybe less games but there's more competitions there's actually more to add on to what we already do what we're already seeing now so I don't know how that's going to pan out it's true about the sports science but a GPS doesn't monitor how you're feeling mentally does it? I remember going season to a World Cup, then another season, then Olympics, and I remember I would like to think I was quite robust, but I remember breaking down once because I was just so mentally fatigued and I needed to kind of go away and miss the game a little bit and then come back.

13:09How can you give your best performance just constantly? I think that's it. The great players do adapt. You look at Messi and Ronaldo. I know they're not playing week in, week out in the demands of the Premier League, but these guys, going back over a few years, they did play there's 60, 70 games there, and they adapted to it, and that's where the greatness comes from. So I agree on one hand, the top athletes in any level of sport step up to that challenge. But there will be, like always, there's a tipping point on the games. And I think it's a mental thing, how much time you get off in the summer.

13:39Recharge your batteries mentally, physically, these players, even when they're off in the summer, now they're looking after themselves. Yeah. You see, we have, again, a lot of club owners were here. I was talking about the fear over the players. for the players to be able to perform you also need to in the future I hope it will come to know what is the player doing out of the training ground we need to be able when you see the money that now we are getting even back in the days I mean let me see Jimmy Flo Hasselbank they bought him for I don't know 40 million pounds you know what is 40 million pounds investment one player you need to be able to know exactly what he's doing what he's eating at home how he drives back at home at what time is he going to you understand to be able to have a better competition I think the players now I think I mean I don't know if it's like that at every club but they're wearing the whoops they're wearing the sort of the heart rate monitors they're constantly being measured and I think tested I think they're asleep now they've probably got the rings on or the aura ring or the whoop I think they're probably now the top players and certainly at the elite clubs there you go elite players 20 years too late.

14:51There's not enough. There should be more improvement on the control over the physical aspect. You can't babysit up. You can't babysit up. You can't. I will have accepted at my time. I will have accepted. My value, it's 50 million. I earn 10 million yearly. You are entitled to control me a little bit over even my life, my private life. I believe that. I will have accepted. Not the Irish players. Try about life. You don't want to know what the Irish players are doing. You know what I'm saying?

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17:26That sounds really... I think the players, to be fair to them, 99 % of players are responsible. They're accountable for their own performances. And I think you also have to let them live. I mean, they're human beings. I understand what you're saying. I think clubs do have a level of control over performance, but I think the players, to be fair, have a responsibility as well to their clubs, to their fans, to their families, and up to their own careers, because they're only damaging themselves if they're unprofessional. So how much further would you take it? Back in the day, famously, we at United copied Milan, because you had that performance level there that was incredible.

18:05What are you suggesting we should do that goes further than what's currently happening at top clubs? players have to stay at the training ground all week? Prison? The Italian have initiated bringing the players to the camp. Now we are having it naturally in England. It was not the case before. The player was coming the day of the match, dressed with their own outfit. Even sometimes late. It has improved on that aspect. I believe that there should be a little bit more control. And again, the club should not fear. Each player is an investment. It's a value. It's something. So we should try to initiate this control to be able to have more fit.

18:54You mentioned Messi and Ronaldo. They've stayed 15 years in the football business. Why? Their lifestyle was completely dedicated to the real implication. It's football. We care and we don't care at the same time your lifestyle you are role models you are a hero you are you are everything you should be able to sacrifice something on that short period that is between 15 to 20 years to be able to you know lift up you know the the the 34 because of my lifestyle my lifestyle it wasn't good i'm not proud of it and i look at players now and i didn't have that discipline i think i was a pretty good pro but off the field stuff where i be drinking and what i was eating that definitely cut my career short 100%.

19:38Ronaldo and Messi, we're talking about two, arguably the greatest ever. They've done that on their own steam. It's not like the club put that on them. They've done that. And that's what players will do. You don't need to force that into players. Yeah. Surely. I think that's such a good point because if you dictate to them, how are they going to learn? When you're younger, you might go out for a drink, you might play bad on the Saturday and you think, I won't do it next week. And some players won't be cut out for it, but you can't dictate the journey. They have to take it out for themselves. They're a great example as well, Jim, because the expectation on them week in, week out.

20:11Yeah. And every week they're generally turned up. And they've done that themselves. They haven't had that force upon them. Just coming back to Rodri, I mean, going back two or three weeks ago, I think Hep had said in his press conference before the game against Manchester United that he felt Rodri was, you know, on the edge and that he wasn't sure whether he was going to play. But I always think that managers still end up playing their players all the time as well. You've got 24 players in the squad. you know to be fair we had a manager who would rotate constantly to make sure that the players were fresh come March, April, May I'm not sure I see the same levels of rotation sometimes from managers when they've got big squads they've got you know the reason that top clubs have 22, 23 players is to be able to rotate and make sure that you can basically compete for 50, 60, 70 games a season this idea that a top club United, Paris Saint-Germain, AC Milan.

21:01You don't rotate your very best players now your best players did Rodri need to play against Brentford away no we have to be careful Rodri's on the back of a long term injury he's come back listen he's hurt his hamstring it's not the end of the world he could be back in two or three weeks but can Nico Gonzalez not start that match he's been signed for 45 million they're playing Brentford away near the bottom of the league does Rodri need to play in that match when obviously Pep's one of the greatest managers ever but there's still pressure on managers to get results and ultimately when you're talking about squad rotations and all the top players don't want to be rotated.

21:34They don't. And they might have the conversation. And Rodri, and then you're, so Rodri's come back from a long-term injury and the common sense is how would he get back up to his very best? That would be games. So there is that expectation, especially where Man City can dominate a lot of possessions. Rodri should be able to get away with it. Surely he can be rested against Brentford. I know they only beat him one time. He can be rested a lot of weeks. He can be rested for lots of games. But then, how is he going to get back up to speed? You get back up to speed. He's a good example after being out for a long term.

22:00on one hand you go well rotate and we go how can we get Rodri back to his very best and that is playing games and if he got injured against Brentford Rodri with all his experience it's not it wasn't a Derby game or a big European game we go that can drain you emotionally Brentford he should be able to get through a Brentford game but again he's hurt his hamstring he can be back in two or three weeks there's also not a time to panic and go well you're overplaying Rodri players don't know how much rest you get sometimes injuries as part of being a footballer now if he gets two or three more by the end of the season.

22:31There's another hamstring or a calf injury. You might go, hold on a second. It might be off for two or three weeks. It's not the end of the walk. Anything else we change before we move on? When players cut holes in the socks, just get bigger socks. It drives us mad. I'm like, just get a pair of bigger socks. I just can't understand why there's not more Irish managers.

22:53Marcel, you're our guest. You're our guest on here. We do this every single week. how would you like to get back into the game? Someone like you who's got a vast experience of playing, you've won World Cups, you've won Champions Leagues, you've won all there is to winning the game, you've played in different countries. How would you like to get back into football? Why has football not got you? No, I'm happy about the modern football. I like the technical side of it. Each player has an ability with the ball and understanding of the tactical views, discipline also you want to be a coach then? I've done the coaching badges I have it but the lifestyle is no good changing clubs after clubs so I have the passion but I prefer to deliver my expertise with TV work and many more and endorsement than being a coach every morning on the pitch to diffuse my experience I'm not sure it's meant for me But I believe that, yes, I like the way the players have grown.

24:02Now you don't have players who doesn't know how to touch the ball, how to understand tactically the need of the coach. So this is very good, that understanding. You could do that as a player. You're talking about the tactical side of the game. You famously played centre-back and central midfield. And I watched more than a few clips of you. I was stalking you before we come and did this, and I watched the Champions League final 1994 when you actually played in midfield. You scored that goal as well. What were the differences then sort of tactically when you were playing, or certainly your height in the 90s between playing midfield and then having to go back to centre-back?

24:43So back in the days, it was Italy, the best league in the world, and I had the chance here to come to AC Milan, who was playing with Fabio Capello, the 4-4-2, pressing in the opening. So Marseille was a little bit in difficulty financially, so I got the luck to come in AC Milan, and they found the good move to put me in the midfield. And that period, being in the midfield, was not like now. Technically, I could have not played now. I would have not been effective. But back in the days, linked to the tactical side of Milan, where we were pressing the opponent all over the pitch, I was perfect. Perfect.

25:26Strong player, understanding of the game, tactically knowing exactly where I was. So all the style was aligned for me to be able to perform. But slowly I realized that the football is changing. Technically, you had players like Edgar Davids, Patrick Vieira. Who? Patrick Vieira.

25:57So you could see that the technicality, the usage of the ball was better. So me coming quickly on you and making you scared was not happening anymore. So I had to understand and drop back as a defender to be able to continue to be the Marcel Bessaï that everyone knows. Was there any particular game that made you think, I can't play midfield no more? You could see it. You could see. I was starting to play the same role the same way. I could see that I was not getting the ball anymore. The same way. I think I was quite okay back in the days for the one that I was old enough to have seen me playing.

26:40So now it was my time to redraw from that position because the football was changing. It was the beginning of the change of the football where technically it was on a higher scale. Only England was still having the fighting spirit. That's why I decided to come in England to experience the fighting spirit. because I was a big fella, I was strong, I was ready for the battle, I was a leader, and I wanted to experience England. Wow. When I came the first month, it was quite difficult. I mean, every weekend you had to play against, I don't know if you remember the name, Duncan Ferguson, Nile Quinn, who else are you?

27:22Dionne Dublin. Sheerah. Sheerah, yeah, so Sheerah, I still have some stars. Sneaky. Sneaky. First game, it was at Coventry, I remember. So you had to mark a Diane Dublin. I don't know his name really. I'm just arriving as a World Cup winner. I don't mind. I take him on corner. First corner. Boom. He scored a goal. I remember I fall on the floor and I look at my teammates around. They were all like, oh, World Cup winner.

28:00I got depressed for like three months because I could not understand that even a small striker could flick the ball in front of me. I couldn't get the ball. It was really, you know, a difficult moment for me. I hide it. But for like three months, I was quite depressed because the speed of the English game was really there. Even though we Chelsea, sorry, we changed the football because we were having Gianfranco Zola. or we were not playing long balls or we were really trying to play and build them. Did you have to adapt anything to your game then when you came into the Premier League? I had to change my game.

28:38I had to accept that I cannot get the ball, you know, on a first, you know, first time. Yeah. I have to drop back, be clever, read the game. Interesting. Not put myself into the system and dive anyhow. So, yeah, I had really to adapt and understand the game. Which league did you like playing in the best, the French League, the Italian League or the English League? Well, I think it was good. I started with the French League, which has a lot of great talents. I mean, the academy over all the clubs in France are doing very well. You can see all the French players that are now gone into many, many leagues.

29:17Italy was the best experience probably because you play at your best level and you win trophy, Champions League and more. But the English league, obviously, was more attractive for the TV to generate more revenue. You could see, you could tell. So it's one of the reasons why also I moved, because I knew that the interest into the football, it's not that the Italian league was not good anymore, but the Premier League was really more attractive. You can see, even if you look at a championship game, you are attracted by the game, because there is speed, there is action, there is movement, there is something special about it.

29:57It's interesting you say that, though, because we've all spoken about this. Growing up, probably at the age of between 12 and probably 18, there was a programme on Sunday in England that basically, Giseta della Sport, which was the Italian League in England, and we all absolutely loved that programme. We were obsessed with the Italian League. What was going on back then when you were playing there? why is that not transported I mean today obviously the Italian League is still a great league but we were obsessed with it we were obsessed with the Italian League back then what's happened? The lack of players probably there's been a drop because most of the players was coming in England to play and the fighting spirit as I said have attracted much more the viewers because you're in front of your TV football is a show at the end of the day No matter the result, you are sitting down and expecting really the players to deliver a show to yourself.

30:56Financially, Chair? Financially as well? Yes, because more attractive, more TV rights, the stadium was much more organized for the English teams. You could see the Italian was having old stadiums. In fact, they are now crashing San Siro to rebuild a new one, which is good. more modern to get more money and generate much more for buying more players eventually. So England have understood the stadium was tight, you are close to the field, the ambience was higher, so England was really an attractive place. Do you worry about the imbalance financially across Europe that I'm sure people in this room are discussing on a regular basis?

31:38I think we all want to see the very top clubs be at an elite level and have lots of money because we love seeing the best, but we don't want to see the gap to the clubs that are playing all over Europe. We want to see that gap either stay as it is or get closer if it can do. You should not worry too much about the gap. The gap will still be there. Clubs like Bayern Munich and many more will still be at the top because historically they've been in a system and their philosophy, the way they've built up the club is there forever. But I can see that either UEFA and FIFA also are trying to give access to more unknown club or unknown country to access to the competition, which is very good.

32:22And those club or national team to have more possibility to experience the high level will eventually grow. And if they were locked, we have an investment fund or oligarch or someone will come and invest into the football because football is not scared about the money. They can come plenty if we want them. It's not the money that will make the difference. is the philosophy and the way you build up your club that will make you to succeed. So it's very good that they've opened up to countries or clubs that we didn't know. And they are there, they are competing, they are building up their knowledge and their understanding of the game.

32:59So it's good. You don't think it's something to be concerned about? We should not be concerned about, no. Because the game is the game and you cannot change. Real Madrid will all the time be a Real Madrid. And AC Milan will all the time, there will be a drop sometimes. but you cannot erase them. They will continue to have the first role on the football business. With financial fair play rules, what I used to love about the Premier League was that Blackburn under Jack Walker or Chelsea under Roman Abramovich could start here, but they could invest in the club and they could get to here. I used to love that about the Premier League.

33:35Manchester City, obviously, as well. So you think about Manchester City and Chelsea, without owner investment, they would never have been able to get to the levels of Manchester United, Liverpool, Arsenal and compete. With financial fair play rules now, which I accept you need to have some levels of control, how do a club that's here now get to there? It's very difficult because of the fact the revenues of the clubs here are already so set. Tough question. You need to have a 92 generation to class of 90. But when the likes of Brighton or clubs in the lower Premier League get these types of players, they have them taken off them, which has always happened, it's not something new, but they obviously sell them and then they lose those players.

34:19I'm talking about how does someone take, I'm going to pick a club in the Premier League, Sunderland, how does someone come and spend, Newcastle, we've seen it in Newcastle, how does someone take Newcastle and Sunderland that have not got the revenues of Manchester United, Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea, Manchester City, how does Sunderland become an elite club like they have been at times in the last 100 years in English football? Or are they always going to be down here now? No, we're getting there. We're not down there. We're seven. We're not down there. Chelsea, yeah. Chelsea is a good example.

34:49Before coming to Chelsea, I didn't really know about Chelsea. I've never heard really about Chelsea in the 92, 93, 94. And they built a foundation with players who were spending quite a lot, but they built up some kind of foundation. But they had no financial restrictions to be able to spend back then. They were able to spend money on you and bring players like Iron Robin and SCN. All these players were bought in without financial restrictions at that time. You mentioned Newcastle, Gary, but clubs have had a taste of it. It's just the problem is maintaining it. I think Newcastle have had to sell two or three of their best young players just to stay afloat with...

35:26Yeah, but they've got a brilliant manager and they've obviously won a cup last year. They're in Europe, so they've had a taste of it. The problem for all these clubs is maintaining it. I think that's You need to build up a generation of players that does not cost you too much and you top up with experienced player you might have also your own trick to invest indirectly money that will benefit the club that you're not going to be caught with the financial fair play there is many ways there's a moment where we should open up a little bit more I mean I'm not into the administration but we should open a bit more, we should not be scared about the money injected into the football business.

36:06If I'm an owner out here, the thing that would scare me most is the increasing salaries of players, because obviously they've gone up to an incredible level to the point whereby, I know you're smiling at me already. Yeah, it's good. Because it's a difficult conversation for us to have because we were players ourselves and I was a member of the PFA union, FIPRO. I would have fought to fight this like every day of my life to make sure that salary caps were never introduced. but is there a case here where salary caps can be or would be introduced in football to make sure that clubs are more sustainable?

36:39I will not agree on salary cap because I'm a defender and you want to come, and I believe on my capability and on my level, you cannot compare me with any other in the club. I will not accept to earn the same thing as my mate who is playing with me, let's say back in the days, Laurent Blanc, I would have not accepted, or Frank Leboeuf, I would not accept that. I believe that I'm something special. And you are dealing with talent. So it's super difficult to identify and to have that sort of the way the Americans are doing to say, look, everyone should be more or less to that level. We are dealing with talent.

37:19It's a different sensibility. You have to reward the talent in a different way. So you will not have that equilibrium on the salary. It's not possible. A.I. had the time of my life. A.I. never felt this way before. From building timelines to assigning the right people and even spotting risks across dozens of projects, Monday Sidekick knows your business, thinks ahead, and takes action. One click on the star and consider it done. And I owe it all to you. Try Monday Sidekick, AI you'll love to use, on Monday.com. Did I talk too much? Why can't I just let it go? I wish I would stop. I wish I would stop.

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39:25players would get sponsors, whatever, would it stay just, I think it's too complicated to bring it in? It was introduced actually in the lower leagues in England three years ago. Not a lot of people probably know about this. It was just after COVID. Salary caps were introduced at League 1 and League 2 level. And they were actually overturned very quickly by the PFA. They obviously fought it through the courts and through the system and they obviously won very, very quickly. against sort of restriction of the trade and restriction of people's employment. So it didn't really work and it was challenged very quickly.

40:03But I suspect it's something that will continue to keep coming up. What are the things that we love most about football when we watch it today? To all of us? Any of you. It wasn't all my time. Yeah, one of the things that when we go and watch a game of football today, I think you mentioned before, didn't you, about the fact you can watch the games all the time now and you couldn't when you were growing up. Yeah, that was a big thing for me. We talked about where the game's gone from, maybe from when I was a youngster and the explosion of TV and that gives us all the jobs that we have in Pundit, but you can almost watch any game anywhere in the world now.

40:35That was certainly not the case when I was young. So I think that's been the big thing of sort of football. It almost feels like football for me has taken over almost every other sport unfortunately for them. Because when I was a youngster I knew everything about the England rugby team or the cricket team or the Olympics. Now, if you ask me to name the teams, I probably wouldn't know that because I just feel like it's just football constantly, 24-7, which is great for me because I love football, but it's just the power of the game feels like it's taken over every other sport, really. Yeah, you've mentioned there about the changes we'd like to make.

41:10We could discuss that all day, pluses and minuses in football. The bottom line is we all love the game, don't we? Yeah. I'll tell you, we do love the game. Yeah. Especially the premiership has grown. Obviously, it's got a few faults, of course, along the way, the way the facilities, the top players coming across, the levels we played at. I think we loved the game and that coming across. I think what I would say with it is that there seems to be so much jeopardy on losing that you feel like when you're watching the games, there's so much structure in the way that they're built up to the point where it doesn't feel entertaining.

41:44This is why I suppose... It's about the style of football. Yeah, this is why I feel... Arsenal in particular? No, not Arsenal. I'd probably say Man United. But I think that's why you can mention a Messi and a Ronaldo. They were very special. And you watch a game where they're in and you might see something special. I don't think we see enough special things happening in the game. I think the World Cup, the last World Cup was magnificent. I don't think we see enough games on a weekly basis where you're seeing great football. Because it's a fair illusion, right? I just think that it's fair illusion to a certain extent because it feels robotic.

42:18I don't know how I'd play in the current climate simply because I felt like I was a little bit more of an instinctive player, especially in the last third. And you find that when you're watching the games now, when you get to the last third, people are being safer. You know, especially I'm seeing that a lot in my club. You know, yes, we've signed some players now where you feel like, yes, they'll take a shot outside the box. They'll try something else and different skills. I don't think we see enough. Does that come from the data revolution that's come into football in the last 10, 15 years? You know, the opportunity in terms of having shots outside the box.

42:54We're talking about the feeling for the game's almost gone and it's become, when you're calling it robotic, to do it basically. The science behind that and the numbers basically. I think there's a lot more drive towards that, the science. Because look at the dressing rooms now. So many different people in there. with what they've got to contribute to what's happening in the team. So you're going to have to listen to all these people and all these people are going to want to have their say and they want to put whatever their job is into motion in the team. That's why you can get a sports science guy in the dressing room who can say, he's coming to his red zone, we need to take him out.

43:31It just feels like there's a lot of that dictated to the manager. so you know a player that he'd want to play you know might you know he can't play because he might get injured but now part of the challenge I always think for a top sports we've mentioned earlier part of the challenge I think is playing sport when you're tired and fatigued you know if you felt great before every game wouldn't that be fantastic yeah part of the challenge of being a footballer is playing when your hamstrings are a bit tight your back's at you whatever it might be contact situations going in the background family situations you have to stay focused on that game I think that's what the top sports people who they go, I can push that to the side and sort of focus on the game, even if I'm not physically feeling great.

44:11Because over the course, if you play 50, 60, 70 matches a season, you're not going to feel great in some of these matches. That's the challenge for the player. And it's so interesting when you speak to right Ian, you would say sometimes you'd have a quiet game and then you'd get two goals, 88th, 89th minute. But nowadays we'd change the striker. And then obviously a new one's got to come in. And I think it is interesting and we're obsessed with final third entries. It doesn't matter how many final third entries you get. You've got to get it in the back of the net. Too many stats. Yeah, I think we have gone a bit too heavy on the stats.

44:42Roy always says there's one stat that matters. Score and chill. The score. I feel like there is a little change in this last few months. I was at the Chelsea-Liverpool game on Saturday and I felt there were two teams who were going for each other and it was a brilliant game. It was a great game. The atmosphere was incredible. But then people were calling that game chaotic. No, that's not chaotic. That was a brilliant game. And the atmosphere was absolutely... It was if you were a Liverpool fan. It's a playing game. Both teams going at each other. I do think there is an element now. I don't think fans are accepting sort of what would be, you called it robotic football.

45:12I think there is a, fans are definitely, when players have got the ball at the back and the defenders have the ball, they're expecting quicker play. They don't like the goalkeepers rolling their foot over it. I think in the last 12 months, they've sort of, fans have pushed back a little bit on that. Managers and players will follow the best in the industry when you see Pep doing that. So when Pep came across a few years ago, 19 years ago, and keepers, everyone followed that. So people do follow trends, whether it be clothes, fashion, whatever it might be. So now people see Pep, maybe the last year or so, all of a sudden going, no, let's go a bit long, let's be a bit more directed.

45:43And other people are going, yeah, Pep's doing it. I'm going to do it, yeah. A lot of people do follow the top managers out there. Don't you enjoy the possession, the statistics? No. I know you want to direct football. No, we don't. I watched the game the other day. I love the modern football and the possession part of it. I watched Brentford and Man City the other day. Yeah, direct. It wasn't that, I don't know what it was. Marcel, you say this, Marcel, but you played in teams, whether it be at Chelsea. Of course we love possession. We love possession, though, that's quick possession, with tempo, with rhythm, with intent, with to go forward and sort of.

46:18I think that's probably more of a British-English mentality of watching half. We don't want our game to be tactical to a point whereby it becomes pass, pass, pass. And then players start worrying about their stats. How many times have I given it away? We need action. Don't worry when the centre-half had the most passes in a game. That can't be good. Historically, we are coming from a generation where there were more talent. This is no doubt. When you look at the numbers and the big names that were back in the days into the system, it was far higher than what we have now. But now the ability of all the players has increased.

46:56So it's one of the reasons why they are also not taking the lead to create and make the difference, you know, on the offensive animation. They just play until an opportunity comes to score, to make the difference. So the football has a little bit changed in that way and continues to entertain the people because of that ability. That's fine when the top teams are doing it and they're passing and proving, of course, and they're getting down to the size of people. But when you see bad teams doing, and we've seen a few teams, particularly over the last few years, getting relegated, doing it and losing possessions and getting punished and getting relegated, that's the bit we don't get.

47:34When Man City are in their prime, or you come back to your team, the great teams we've watched, France, Brazil, wherever it might be, Liverpool back in the 80s, that's great to watch. But when the bad teams are doing it and losing goals, that's the bit where we're scratching our heads. I think also from an owner's perspective, you've got to have your fans excited every single match. If you're an owner of a football club, you need to watch great football of course you need to win, you need to stay up you need to not get relegated, all those things are important but if you're just basically playing football that people are not excited by the fans don't come, they're not excited as much they're not as happy, they're not as thrilled when they leave the stadium, so I do think for owners good football and entertainment is really important I'm not sure I want to win no matter how I want to win we are trying to detail you know, a problem that if you ask, 90 % of the fans will tell you, no matter how my team is playing, we just want to win.

48:30Yeah. You see, so... Surely they just accept the fact that they've won afterwards, but then you say, oh, I'll take the win. That's what you will say as a fan. But you want to be a fan, surely. But it's a reality in football, in modern football, that you cannot change. It's like that. There is less talent because the academy don't produce it, don't allow talent to express themselves. Why don't they produce them? because you all the time restructure the players who have a talent to make them fit to the collective. It's one of the reasons. He cannot be on his own and be that individual that will make the difference for the rest of the team.

49:08He needs to fit into the discipline, into the system, into the philosophy that the coach will put in place. So you lose on the young age some of the talents, unless it's Barcelona eventually where they create the Patriot, they go and get the Dojong, Olmo, they have all these kind of players who have this kind of philosophy built from the club, from the youth, and they keep it. But otherwise, most of the time, be effective for the collective instead of being effective for yourself individually. Marcel, thank you very, very much, and thank you to everybody who's watched us here today. Thank you very much for inviting us.

49:44Thank you.

49:51Thank you.

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