Title Race Rows, Heated Debates & Controversial Takes | Best of Fan Debate

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2:23Rory, come on. I always feel you've got a hot take every week that we come and you've normally had a good think about what you're going to say. Yeah, to a degree, to a degree. So something that I said fairly recently got a lot of traction, a lot of heat, and I got it in the neck. You do that, though, don't you? Not ideal, but, you know, it's a hazard at a job. But I think the light that you could shed on this is very interesting. What I said on air was something along the lines of, I like it when my players cheat. I want Chelsea players to go down in the box. If Didier Drogba's in a situation where he can perhaps initiate contact and fall, great.

3:00If you can dive to win a penalty, great. If you can handball it off the line and not get caught, great. And a lot of people gave me some stick. I've got no issue with diving. I like it all, right? Just make sure that you win the game. From a fan perspective, people like to take the moral high ground. But I think a lot of people, if they're being totally truthful, will agree with me. What do you think? Like when you were playing, for example, Jamie, when you were playing, Fernando Torres in the box, he goes down light. Are you happy or something? I'm with you in that I think we're all cheats. You know, we are.

3:32On the football pitch, we're asking for decisions that we know are wrong. We're trying to continually influence a referee as a player when I know it's... Stop saying we, you're just describing it. You're just describing Jamie Carragher. Yeah. I was... It's funny because I think I would like to push... I think cheating is... I'm not against people going down. I don't like diving. But I'm not against... If a keeper comes out of someone's feet or the defender makes a stupid tackle, I'd be like to my striker, what are you doing? Use your brain. It's his fault. don't sort of get out the way of him, let him hit you.

4:20You know, you see a keeper come out at a striker's feet, and always the striker's thinking, if I get there before him, I'm just going to run into the keeper. It's a penalty. Now, we all know he's played for it. For me, that's fine. But I wouldn't like, if I didn't put a tackle in and someone just fell on the floor, I'd be like, fuck off. You know, that type of thing. But I do, listen, it's top-level football, it's top-level sport, and I would always encourage my attacking player, if I'm at the back, If someone makes a silly tackle, do not be trying to play this game of Mr Honesty or nothing like that.

4:53What about famous cheating moments? So I think they're glorious. Like, do you remember when Michael Owen initiated the contact with Pochettino in Japan and went down? It was like brilliant, great work. What was the one at Arsenal? Was it Robbie Fowler? Robbie Fowler didn't go down. David Seaman. Robbie Fowler went down, but then he said it wasn't a penalty. I think Jamie's right. I think Jamie's right about if there's contact, you go. Our manager said that all the time. Yeah. If someone touched you, you can go down. And sometimes when it didn't happen and you stayed up on your feet, he's just going, fuck, man.

5:21Well, that's what Ronnie Moran, obviously the famous Liverpool coach, I believe he went, I wasn't in the Liverpool team at the time, but I believe he went mad at Robbie Fowler after the game. Really? Yeah, I think Liverpool won the game anyway, but I think it was a bit, don't ever do that again. You know, a case of that. And I get that. You know, you don't, if a referee is giving you the penalty, you don't tell the referee it's not a penalty. Well, about a fever review, or maybe you've had an experience. Say you were on the pitch playing for Argentina when Maradona handballs it in? Are you happy with that or are you not?

5:49No. No, really? You can't be happy with that, can you? No, I won't be happy with that. I'd be more than happy with Chilton. Eh? Early days of Ronaldo when he'd occasionally die of that. Were you guys... Yeah, we weren't happy with that. I think as a collective of our team, we didn't like it. And he got told about that. It soon stopped. Do you think you're not happy with it as a teammate because if he gets a reputation for that, then he might be less likely to get penalties given against him. If you know he's got a reputation for being a diver. Absolutely. That's what will happen. We had it for a whole season at Spurs with Bale where we didn't get a single penalty because he had that reputation of diving.

6:26There was loads where he was getting hacked down, pulled down, and nothing that does affect him. Yeah, there was other people that you have to tell him. I think as teammates, you just tell him, don't you? It can go the other way though, can't it? Remember Ashley Young? Salah gets kicked up in the air. Ashley Young was a nightmare, wasn't he? Ashley Young was a nightmare. He used to dive all the time. In training as well, I'll try it every day with diving though now you're not going to get away like actually diving in the same way that Ronaldo you can't get away with it now you know as a perfect example now that you're talking Harry Kane I loved it I thought when I used to watch Harry Kane playing I used to think he's just street wise I think that's probably the best way to describe it I don't like cheating but I like being street wise on the pitch I don't like as I said just falling over and someone blatantly cheating.

7:16But I do like players, as I said, and Harry Kane, there was no one better than Harry Kane. Yeah, I think in top-level football where the margins are so, so fine, you've got to find a way to win. As long as you're not... You could argue that that is cheating by buying fouls and whatever. But Kane was just clever. He'd back into defenders, he'd initiate contact, he'd get free kicks. He was the master of what you were saying before about when a keeper comes out, he's making sure he gets that first touch, knocking it around him and letting him hit him. He did it at Anfield, I'm pretty sure. for his 100th.

7:45Yeah, yeah. It's just like, you know, I think that's okay. Adam, you just mentioned about the comments that the manager made. He said, my players spoke really loud. I sometimes hate my players. I mean, what do you think of Man United fans? You're tuning to Sky Sports News and the interviews are coming in. What do you thought? I mean, I thought it was a resignation speech, to be honest. It was a little bit of me that, because like I say, maybe he's probably one of those guys that gets into trouble with the misses and he talks his way out of it very quickly. And I think he's a sweet talker and I'm kind of going with it sometimes.

8:22And I was like, just show me a little bit of something, show me a little bit of fight. And it felt like a resignation speech. I was like, we'll get to Burnley, beat Burnley, probably, probably not. And then he'll probably be gone. And I do worry like, it's clear that he's under huge amounts of pressure and he can feel it. Maybe for some fans like myself who kind of went into the campaign thinking, I've wiped the slate clean from last season, but clearly there's still a hangover from that and he's feeling the pressure. And we've got some big games coming up. And it does worry me that we could get to the next international break and still be like, oh, could this be the international break where he goes?

8:59We've got City coming up. We've got Chelsea coming up. So I was shocked to see that happening so soon into the season, three games in. It was alarming. Scholes, I want to ask you about your thoughts on the manager in terms of his press conferences when you switch him on and he's on the TV are you sat there thinking oh God, what's he going to come out with now? or do you actually enjoy and think he's charismatic he's bringing something to the Premier League? Yeah, I quite like him look, he is very honest but you can't be too honest as Adam says

9:37he's saying what every manager probably thinks. At some point, you're like, I'll hate him, I don't like him, I don't like him. That's just the way you are about, I want to leave, I'll have to get out with this, the pressure's too much. But I don't think you say that out loud. I think there's so many experienced managers now in the Premier League who will be thinking that, and I've thought that, but they won't say it. The worst comment for me was after the Grimsby game, the one where he said, the players spoke out loud. I thought that was a little bit damning for him What did you think he meant by that?

10:12That they don't want to play for him I I I actually thought they spoke really hard with their performance as in like they're not good enough I thought he was having a dig at Manu if I'm being honest because there was a lot of talk going into that game that Manu could be going he's not using his cover for Fernandes and Manu did have a poor game in the game and it was interesting what he said I suppose you could take it a lot of different ways couldn't you how he spoke? That Mano thing for me as well was a thing where I've kind of gone, again, I've been fully behind him the whole time. And that was just like, if you can't see the values of Kabimeno in the team and you can't get the best out of him, then you're probably not the guy for us.

10:50And I think for a club like Manchester United, if we were to let him go, I think it just represents a complete change of the club that I know. Those are the players that you're supposed to be building the team around. And this isn't like, people like to go, are you trying to treat a player bigger than the club? that's not the case at all. Kabi Meno is clearly a massive talent who should be in the team. And if you need to get a midfield that's working, I don't think Higate is it. I don't think Bruno is going to be it necessarily. Try and get him working in the midfield because he's just so good.

11:21And it did bother me that where I think I mentioned that if Kabi Meno goes, I think I'm done with them. That's the end for me. I'm just over with it. Because it was, it's too good to be letting go. I think just going back to, and I agree with Manu, but I think going back to his comments, there's now a big clamour, isn't he, to get Jose back. Jose's lost his job in Turkey. At United? No, in terms of English football. Thank God for that. But the reason being is because he's box office and he comes out with stuff, but he was a winner. We always remember Brian Clough. When I was a kid, Brian Clough speaking, you'd listen, because he was a winner.

12:03The problem at the moment, Amaran, is great in the press conferences, but because he's not winning and it's really, it's like, oh, shut up, stop speaking, keep your mouth shut. If he was winning, we'd all go, this fella, what a character, what a personality. You know, that's the top and bottom of it about the way he speaks. Because I actually look at it and think, if he wasn't so charismatic in the press conference, he wasn't such a good-looking man, he might have actually lost his job a lot earlier. If he was a bit like David Moyes a bit. Look at the results. They're horrendous. The results are horrendous.

12:42Tell us about what is going on in Syria with the match balls. So this is actually a new one for me as well. I was at an event last week and the marketing director, whoever he was, was doing a talk with Shevchenko and they were talking about how in 100 games in Syria, They will pause the game after a goal's gone in, swap the ball, then you can buy that ball. You actually see him doing... The shoulder camera shows him putting the ball in the bag, don't they? Yeah, put the ball in the bag. Put it somewhere. And then, obviously, it came under loads of scrutiny, as you can imagine. But then, Scott McTominay's...

13:20The ball that Scott McTominay scored with went for€32 ,000. Where's that money going? I've looked everywhere for this. So, you'd assume it was charity. For the money. You'd assume it would be charity, wouldn't you? I've looked everywhere, I don't know. There is no public record. You know what I actually think? I've seen the faces you pulled when he said that. But, I mean, once the ball's gone in the net, if that was going to charity... If it goes to charity, it's brilliant. What I'm saying is the game's stopped. It's not going to charity, though, is it? No, but what was it? Imagine it was. Imagine the Premier League.

13:53A ball that was scored. Every goal that was scored in the Premier League. I mean, there's a multi-ball system around the pitch anyway. That ball's... What's it take? 30 seconds to kick off again? A minute to kick off again? The ball could probably get back to the halfway line quicker than getting it out of the... What happens if you score a hatchet and you've got to buy your own ball? Yeah, just three days. You know what? That's actually what they asked them there as well. It's free match balls. And if you have a woolly answer to it. You can keep the third one. But what I'm saying is, I actually...

14:20If that was going to charity, I'm... Listen, where's StatGBT? How many goals would be scored in the Premier League in a season? I wouldn't even know. I mean, what are we... I reckon about 1 ,000. We concede about 100, so there's a starting point. Use a plus two. 380 games, three a game. Probably about 100. Let's say, whatever it is. Yeah, about 800. I mean, imagine that money going to charity.

14:491 ,115 was the gold last season. You're flying on this video. Would that be something you could think could work, or would you not like that? Because I've seen your face initially, but Rory. If it was a force for good I think I'd be behind that I think that's a good idea I think that would be amazing For the Premier League Where you cringe Is where the club that you love That you put everything into Is being leveraged for something That's not great I think that's where It rankles with you Isn't it? Yeah so this Isn't for charity As I say I've looked at everyone If they were doing it for charity They definitely would have said it And it's by an NFT company So when you get the ball You can scan the ball And you get a digital version Of it as well So yeah Yeah, you lost us.

15:30You had us and you lost us. Food kill. What was that? Oh, it's not my idea. I was never trying to convince him to buy one in the first place. You ruined it with the NFT chat. How much did he pay for the little card? I bring his 40 on the phone. One of the most annoying ones at Spurs was the Squid Game, because we were getting batted every week. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then you turn up and there's some melt in a costume standing next to you. I don't want to see that. Yeah, we had that. So this is about timing as well. There are so many opportunities to do all this stuff. Unfortunately, Squid Game was coming out, I think it was around Christmas, wasn't it?

16:01I think you'd not won in about seven or eight games. So it's one of those where they sign a deal, they have to do it. Yeah, Daniel Levy's sitting there going, fuck. We signed that Squid Game book. It does feel like there are people involved at times who just don't get football. You know, like when Warrior were making Liverpool's kits, there was a sign up that said something like, what was it? We come not to play. What does that mean? That's what it was. It was describing the team. Our version of that was, you know, the American football owner. What's it called, that show? They've got an American football owner.

16:37It's quite a big show. I forget what it's called. Hampton and Richmond is the... Ted Lasso. Ted Lasso. And do you know what they did? They filmed at Stamford Bridge. But can you just believe how appalling this is, this kind of... We have a banner up for Ray Wilkins. And they amended the banner. They amended Wilkins' banner to chime with the show. So whatever the – I don't watch the TV show, but whatever the guy in the show is, they amended the banner that is our sort of devotion and our homage to Ray Wilkins and what he did for Chelsea, both as a player and an assistant manager. And they made that fit with the narrative of this poxy TV show.

17:17Who signs that off? How can that possibly be? That would have been done in the editing rooms in America somewhere, wouldn't they? They wouldn't know. That's a problem because Chelsea – anything to do with Chelsea, they should have had to sign off completely. Chelsea, yeah. But is Todd Bowley signing off? They played 4-4-3. Todd Bowley, yeah. Yeah, I agree. You've had a lot to say already, and we haven't even got to Chelsea. So, welcome back, mate. And since you were last with us, Mureska's had his P45. You called that very early on, didn't you? Yeah. And you've also had some very strong comments about Rosinha, like, he is Brent and the most undeserving managerial appointment in the Premier League history.

17:57Wow. It's not incorrect, is it? It might be harsh, but it's not incorrect. It is the most undeserving appointment that has ever been awarded to any manager in Premier League history. Nobody less deserving has ever come close to a job the size of Chelsea. It's a baffling appointment. It's not personal. I don't know him. I wish him well. I hope it goes well and I hope that this is completely wrong what I'm about to say. But I think it's an appalling appointment and I think it's actually an admission that Chelsea never want to compete for major silverware ever again. The point of Chelsea is quite clearly not to win leagues, not to win Premier League, not to win FA Cups.

18:31The point now is to appoint a manager that is effectively a stooge for the ownership. He is a company man who will tow the party line. The only reason he's in the job is because he's a yes man. And Chelsea are now an enterprise that isn't really about football anymore. That's what this appointment represents. So where are you having a go at the manager of Regine yet? But I mean, is it really, the fans have more gone on the ownership. Of course, yeah, of course. So, like, Rosinia is just the public face of this. The reason why Rosinia will get it in the neck and the reason why we'll discuss him is because he's the public face of Bluco.

19:03He's the public face of the ownership model at Chelsea. It's very difficult for us to boo Egg Barley. It's very difficult for us to have a detailed conversation about when Stanley and Stewart, who the sporting directors put in the strings. But Liam Rosinia is the public face of that. He is obviously in the job, not because of his brilliance. We were talking about Carrick. I said if it's a meritocracy, he deserves a job. Rasenia is there. Why? Why has he got the job? Because he will be a yes man for the ownership. We heard Enzo Maresco say some terrifying things about what's going on at Chelsea.

19:34The way that the ownership want the club run. The way that the ownership are interfering in the running of the first team. Any manager that you have any respect for, any manager that you would think could be in line for the Chelsea job, wouldn't work in those parameters. They wouldn't do it. What do you feel about that? OK, that's your reaction when he comes in. I get all that. but the games have gone okay result wise I know it's only sort of four games or so but what you're feeling watching the team in those games and also the feeling of watching him in the press conference he's very confident he speaks a lot are you kidding well come on very confident he is quite confident I mean yeah okay then there's misguided confidence isn't there there's idiotic confidence you don't think he comes I'm not saying do you know what he comes across to me then he comes across to me as like I'm a bit like fucking hell no No, what I'm saying is in terms of like...

20:25He lacks confidence in best confidence. I almost think he's a little bit overconfident for where he's been in his coaching journey. I'm a bit like, this fella's... He's a little bit like he's got all the answers. I was thinking, is he like that? Because I don't know him that well. Or is it almost that he's got to put a little bit of a front on to almost go into that dressing room with these Chelsea players because I've only coached a Hull and Derby in Strasburg. So I've almost got to put this big sort of front on. If you ask me to be a manager, I would come out. If you asked me to be a football manager, if I got the job, you asked me to do it, I would do a great impression of a really good football manager.

20:58That's what he's doing. He's doing an impression of a good football manager. What do you want him to do? I think that he's quite clearly a really thick person's idea of what a clever person is. You know, manage, what you're doing. You're putting two words together in your career. It's man and age, you're ageing. It's like, what are you talking about, you moron? Like, you are clearly a really, like a dunce. You know the dunce, the local dunce in the pub? you are that person's definition this is probably going to have to get edited this is gold you are that you are that person's definition of a clever person it's sad though don't you think because for years and years and years we moan about young English managers not being given a chance we did because all these foreigners we probably never heard of that come in and they were alright Paul I love the idea of English managers being given an opportunity I don't think that the England manager should be German, and I've got a lot of stick for saying that.

21:53I think if our own FA aren't going to back young English managers, who are? The England manager should be English. I agree. I like to talk to people, by the way, but it's England. I support the trail of thought, but I think Carrick makes sense. I think that there are lots of English managers who do deserve an opportunity. He's definitely been overly promoted. You can't go on the... When you're actually thinking Chelsea as a football club and the managers they've had, he's almost missed the step that he should have got to before he went to Chelsea. Mourinho was talking, you've seen a Mourinho quote when he was talking about Allegri going to AC Milan.

22:30He's like, that makes sense to me. What's happening now just doesn't make sense to me. And it was clearly about Chelsea. Just to play devil's advocate though, right, Ro? Because I agree with you, you know, I do. But are the owners of Chelsea, are they just bringing in a guy that maybe they have a relationship with, they've seen up close, they know that might be a good up-and-coming coach. And it's already someone they've got. They don't have to make an outside hire. They're giving him a promotion within. Is that... Yeah, that's all happened. It's all happened exactly as you said it, but it hasn't happened for his football.

22:59But could it be based off merit? Look, I can't pretend to you that I know much about what's going on at Lons at the moment, right? But they spent half of what Strasburg sent and they sit top of the league. He's guided Strasburg to seventh in the league, spending more money than anyone else. Like, this isn't a managerial appointment. He's got the job because the ownership wants to input a very particular model into Chelsea and that's about he must have impressed him in some way he must have impressed him in some way though mustn't he? No I genuinely don't think so I think it's a yes man Enzo Maresco was plucked off the bench at Leicester in the Championship and he was brought in as a yes man and even he couldn't work in the parameters that were set by this this ownership so they've had to go for someone even less deserving of the job because if you give it to someone like that they will just be so grateful to be earning the money to be in that position that they will toe the party line Why do you think they only want to turn it down, can they?

23:46Because we've heard that there was a briefing, wasn't there, in the same week when we played Arsenal and Brentford, that we were prioritising the game against Brentford. That's clearly that you know nothing about football, you know nothing about Chelsea. If you see a semi-final against Arsenal with Wembley at stake as less of a priority than a league game against Brentford, you're clearly not in it for the right reasons.

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26:56Whether you're traveling, exercising, or podcasting, the best business news ever, Liquid IV makes it easy to stay hydrated wherever life takes you. So shop now at liquidiv.com. Liquid IV hydration that goes wherever life takes you. Luke, you look a lot more relaxed than your friends sitting on your shoulder. Very relaxed. I mean, I think you came on here and said, the only team that can stop Arsenal in the league is Arsenal. And I think that was your mistake because, you know, we're four points off you. And talking about the game, you know, the league being in your hands, it's one point away from being in our hands.

27:29So, yeah, I think another thing you said as well was that you think that would be a good game, the one at the Etihad. based on last time you came to the Etihad to look for the title, I don't think it'll be a good game. I think Arsenal just come and try and take a point. I think that says a lot about them. A lot of Arsenal fans are quite rattled by Rodri as well and what he's said in the past about the mentality. And I think ultimately that's what it might come down to. The League Cup final, I think Pep will definitely want to win it. We didn't win a trophy last season. Palace stopped us in the final last season.

27:56He'll want to make up for that. But yeah, I'm excited for it. Like you said, you're a bit nervous off-camera, on-camera. you can kind of feel it amongst the fans and the ex-players like you said there and I think we've got a great chance now you look at the Pep sides in the past every single time without fail the second half of the season we've improved we've picked it up knocked it up a gear and I think we've got a chance Are you confident or you just think you've got a chance A lot of people are sort of saying I don't think I think it's probably a fact it's not a man's city of old this team It's easy to say that you look at some of the players you've got Erling Harlan in there won a treble Rodri won a treble you look at Donna Rummer in net the save he made at Anfield unbelievable in the last minute absolutely unbelievable he won the treble last season you look at Ruben D you've got a full spine on your team there Bernardo Silva the captain he's been unbelievable there was a lot of people talking about maybe he might leave at the end of the season maybe he could have gone last year can be got at though that's my problem my fear obviously I've vested interest in you winning but I watched the Fulham game and the second half would worry me if I was yeah I mean the second half it's a concern you can't avoid it I think we've scored two league goals in the second half this season they were both at Anfield sorry not this season in 2026 and yeah I think there's definitely a concern with a drop off in the second half but the players are acknowledging it Pep's acknowledging it and up to now there's not been other than that little period of draws where we drew with Brighton and Chelsea and the second half kind of got away with us I think up to now we've got away with it a little bit so we've definitely got a chance I think we're as confident as we can be and four points is not very much I'm begging you please do this you can smell the blood but I think that you're so disrespectful when you talk about Arsenal I think that you have to actually give credit to the other team but what am I respecting you earn respect to everyone in the league if Arsenal in May are lifting the league title there'll be a lot of respect for them because they've gone on to win the league what am I respecting no but you're talking like you're top of the league and that we're nowhere near I'm talking about a team you're chasing us and you're disrespecting Arsenal big time I'm talking about a team that won six league titles in seven years unbelievable with four on the bounce That's why Unbelievable But you haven't got to be so arrogant When talking about every other club I'm not talking about any other club Liverpool won the league last year They won it in 2020 That's a team you can respect That have gone on and done it And proven themselves And if Arsenal do it 100 % They will be respected As a team that has won the league But you've not won a trophy since Covid I understand it's been a long time without it But I'm talking about this season Can you not appreciate The only other team that's given you Some sort of challenge I can appreciate Arsenal being four points clear I can appreciate a team that's also In all four competitions But this talk about a quadruple for a team that's not won a trophy in six years.

30:32But no one's talking about that, like we're actually going to win the court. We are in all four competitions. I'm saying, yes, you're in all four competitions. Yes, you're four points clear. But what have you done in the past, in my lifetime, that suggests that you're going to go and actually... Well, so history's a great indicator. You know, put it on the table and win those trophies. You bottle it every time. You're shitting the bed right now. Don't you think Arteta's still got... Like, I came on here when we played Arsenal, and I said, I was... And I got some pelters for it. I don't really know why.

30:57I said, I don't get why they aren't turning up. at Anfield I'm going for it and equally when we went to your place same again I mean look at our season we've lost 11 the manager's like under pressure one of the favourites to get sacked and at home against us on a Thursday night we were probably the better side I would argue and same at Anfield obviously we win it there and I just feel like Arteta's got like cautious written through him like Blackpool Rock do you know what I mean and like that must worry you because that come you know that you've got to go for it So will you go to City and go for it?

31:32You should. Because you're trying to win the league. Yeah, I think that it goes beyond Arteta. For me, it goes for the players mostly. The draw against Brentford. The draw against Brentford after the game, I don't know what goes on in the dressing room or on the training ground, but statement of the obvious, every Arsenal player wants to win the league. But the only two that looked like it really affected them was Gabriel and Declan Rice. And those are our two best players. Is against United as well? there was a reaction from the players of, oh, here we go again. We're starting to throw it away.

32:04Doesn't seem to be, when you left the pitch against Brentford, it seemed to be like, uh-oh, these guys are coming. I think the manner of the victory they had at Liverpool, you're nine points clear with a couple of minutes to go and the next thing you know, a couple of days come by and you're four points clear. Could I ask you a question? I think we'd all agree that we think Arsenal are the best team. I think most of us watching this season. 26 games in. The point I'm trying to make is, Adam, as a Man United fan, the thing I think City have got is, we've been there before, we've done this before, we don't feel the pressure, they've won six titles in seven years, we don't feel it's a vintage City.

32:39But have you watched Man United teams of the past, where throughout the season you felt like you weren't watching the greatest of Man United teams, but they'd end up winning the league just through a sheer sort of, you know, Ferguson experience. Could you see a situation like that where actually City do win the league, even though most people think, you know, Arsenal have got the best squad, they've got the best team, just through, as I said, what Manchester United maybe did in certain season, just mentality got them over the line. Arsenal as well, I think they're obviously one of the best teams about, but they clearly have this mental issue and I do think at the moment a lot of their fans are kind of putting their head in the sand and being like, we actually are enjoying what's going on at the moment.

33:14It's easy to enjoy it when you're top of the league. I find if they just slip off there, the pressure from the fans then is going to come as well and I think there'll be a lot of talk about the style of play, but I do think there's that pressure coming and I think for a long time they would have felt this City team aren't going to string a couple of results together. They can't really get going like they have done before. But then like I say, that result at Anfield, we've had big results at Anfield over the years and sometimes you get a result and you just think, this is our league title and I think looking at City that day, because I want Arsenal to win the league outside of their fan base, I think I'd rather see them win the league but I think City are going to do it.

33:50Was Big Ang lying when he said Spurs are in a big club? I think he qualified it, didn't he? He said that we didn't play big club wages, which we all know is true. And, yeah, I mean, you have to compete financially. And if you don't, you will fall behind. And it actually exposes a problem at Tottenham that won't be solved by a new manager. And that is seemingly chaos behind the scenes. You've got to remember, we've removed Daniel Levy. was the institution of Tottenham Hotspur in his own image of 25 years. He's just gone. And then you've got Venkateshum to come in that was brought in to do a different role and is now essentially what Daniel Levy was.

34:32There's tons of people coming in behind the scenes. I don't know who is really running the football club, whereas previously while I was critical of Daniel Levy in the latter part of his time at the club, I at least knew who was running the club and knew who was making the decisions. Now I don't really know. We haven't got a director of football. We had two sporting directors in the summer. One's now left. It's a mess. So to be blaming Frank for everything is unfair on him. On top of the fact that there is, and I know everybody hates to hear it, but the injuries at Spurs are like nothing I've ever seen before.

35:04How have you answered this question without saying Ange Postacoglu is a Judas? How have you managed to do that? I'll answer the question. He asked you a question about Postacoglu. You haven't said one word about Postacoglu selling your club down the river. He hasn't sold the club down the river. what are you doing you've got 7 million quid from the club part of that surely is an implication an implied silence you get 7 million pound payoff surely that means that you don't then go on to the biggest football show that you can possibly find and go I'll tell you what then I don't think I think he no he would have been acutely aware I'd imagine there was some sort of non-disclosure that he hasn't broken otherwise he'll be in front of the lawyers but it's nothing to do with you I thought he was fine I thought he was absolutely fine what you said and I have no issue and I'm looking forward to the next show on Sticks football.

35:51So the interim manager at the end of the season I think was a bit of a surprise. Igor Tudor. Yeah. Are you worried about that? No Premier League experience? Yeah. And the position Tottenham find themselves in? Yeah, I mean a year I remember him as a player when he was at Juve so that was what I know of him. It was sort of mooted and then he was suddenly announced within a couple of hours and I'm like, I don't know who, I had to do a lot of research and all I'm going to tell you about him is what I've read from other people. I don't know. So most of his career, he's gone in in short spells to fix problems.

36:27At Juve, he had to get him qualifying for the Champions League when it looked like they weren't going to do because of the job that Marta had done. At Udinese in 2018, he saved them from relegation in short notice. He has a track record of galvanising clubs in Italy and I think a couple outside as well. So I don't know. It's not a short term because he gets sat down. Are you really, I mean, listen, Spurs went down, I think it was the late 70s. You know, obviously before our time, Manchester United went down. You should think of like huge clubs, but it doesn't feel like that can happen now. But are you in a situation where you're really feeling Spurs could be relegated?

37:06Yeah, I think about it most of the day. Yeah. I mean, 4am I wake up sometimes and go, what if it did? But inside the club and from Trudor they can't even be thinking about that they have to sort of refocus we've got home games against Palace I think we've got Leeds at home Forest as well so those are three massive, massive games that we've got to win But then who would you want to bring in? Because I heard people talking about Harry Redknapp who I think is 79 Yeah That's very difficult to come in at that age even though I've done what he's done and then you look at it and you think well who else is out there to to come in because if they bring a Sean Dice or a Sam Aldice or Neil Warnock in it's going to be no no but I'm just saying you mean the type of manager not actually Neil Warnock no no but they're going to get hammered if they bring that status of managing in and then you look at it then you say or do they go back for Ryan Mason who's just had a very difficult time at West Brom Robbie Keane who hasn't managed in the Premier League although he's played in it so who would you have been happy with I'm just thinking are you not in a Who do you think?

38:13If you've got no one you can think of yourself. I was thinking, could they not actually just go and get a manager? Managers who I look at and who I think could maybe scale up. Because we've had this debate before about Thomas Frank and the style of football and those type of managers, you know, trying to scale up and it never really works. But like when you look at sort of Iriola, maybe a Bournemouth, can you go and get him? Maybe a Marco Silva at Fulham. And they're not just coming in to keep you up. They're almost like, because you want to manage it. You want a Conte or a Pochettino, this guy you think is going to get you back into the Champions League or competing for honours.

38:51But you actually need a manager. Because if you're finishing where it looks like you're going to finish now, let's say you stay up and you finish 15th. You finished 17th last year, didn't you? You might need a manager actually to get you back to sort of, making sure that you're sort of top eight. Before you get this guy who's going to turn the whole club around. Well, I had no idea what the right decision was, that interim manager. It had to be interim, right? because the manager pool available in the summer is massive. There's lots of managers out of contract. Areola, Silva could probably be convinced to come.

39:19Glasner is out of contract. But could you not go and get them now? I don't think... Areola has never broken a contract in his life, so I don't think he'd start right now to enter the... You give him enough money to break a contract. Isn't it Pochettino? Yeah. Sorry, that's it, Dan. I was about to come on to the fact that being in Poch back, we need a tap-in, we need someone to come and manage. You might not even need a director of football if Poch comes in because you kind of give him that licence to breathe. But I think as all Spurs fans, we just need to... They say never go back, but sometimes...

39:48Would you like Pochettino to be the manager? Absolutely, yeah. You just shoot... Without question. You don't... Even with the Chelsea thing? Yeah, even with the Chelsea thing, yeah. We have gone backwards, though, if that is the case. We already know that. We're talking about relegation, eh? It's not a joke. Obviously, we've gone backwards. We've gone backwards. Well, if you go down, who would you get then? Neil Warnock. Yeah.

40:16Ellie, your team spent a lot of money in the summer, but the big boys, like you look at United the last few years, hasn't gone well, but they can still spend in the summer. Is that sort of what frustrates you now? You'd be in a position maybe with the rules where you can't then maybe have another go and try and rectify what's probably been a poor season so far? Yeah, 100%. I mean, like these rules were brought in and it has now created a benefit. That's why we have the Big Six. Ultimately, with all due respect, not every member of the Big Six deserves to be there based on merit. I mean, well, yeah.

40:50And you look in the history of when we started coining the term Big Six, it was about 2010, 2011 when we started using that phrase. It still doesn't add up based on merit. And we're talking about commercial value, but football isn't just about business. Football is community. And you ask every football fan in this room right now, It's so much more in that. And you know, obviously, everything that happened with Derby, how hugely important it is. And it's so frustrating when these rules exist where already established Premier League clubs, already with squads worth hundreds of millions, and then the previous rules, as we well know, when you get promoted, you're not even allowed to lose as much as them.

41:30What chance do you have? Where's the competition? Where is the football? How can we enjoy the Premier League when it's so, so dull? No, it's the same teams year in, year out, because they are allowed to. And the rules previously were very ambiguous, very ambiguous. It was never certain exactly what would happen, when it would happen. They were brought in supposedly for sustainability to stop clubs going into administration, and rightfully so. But when you look at it, it was just so wrong that we got... Is that what you get from it? Is that why they came in, or was the inception from something else?

42:05No, no. How did they come about? Well, it was Chelsea under Roman Abramovich was a disruptor, changed football. Manchester City did the same under Sheikh Mansour. The existing elite clubs, and that's not just in the Premier League, the existing elite clubs within Europe as well, they didn't want, PSG were a potential threat to those clubs that were used to automatically qualifying for the Champions League and automatically winning the trophies. So the aim was to stop another Chelsea, another PSG, another Manchester City. And that's why it's very frustrating for fans of Villa and Forest and Newcastle.

42:38You're on the wrong side of history. You know, 2013, that's when the portcullis came down, and that's prevented a new owner. If somebody's worth billions of pounds and wants to spend it on a football club and says, tell you what, I'm going to guarantee it. I'm going to put this much money aside into a bank account with the Premier League. That guarantees the wages for the next three years. Well, why shouldn't they? I mean, I would argue that there's a potential political motive to this money coming in, that by having this portcullis come down, safeguard the league from being sports-washed. Well, that's a by-product of why these rules came in.

43:11It doesn't matter if that's what you think or not. That's not why the rules came in. That's a good thing. You want to protect the Premier League from being... I'm just saying that's not why the rules... It's not a reservation, though, is it? Newcastle were acquired in 2021. Yeah. So that was from a... And they haven't been able to use that club to maximise their political gains. They've been in the Champions League two years out of the last three, which would not have occurred had it not been for the new owners. If they'd had unlimited spending, then surely they would have won the league by now.

43:37Well, they would have had spectacular losses. Look, a Liverpool span now. Are you surprised with Newcastle that they haven't been a little bit? We saw loads of players not chief of me. You're surprised that Newcastle haven't been a little bit, clever isn't the word, a little bit more creative with their accounting. Like in the way that... Why is St James' Park not called the Saudi Airlines Arena? Or something like that. Well, I think the new stadium could be called that. I think they've done everything that they can do. Certainly there were eyebrows raised at both the front of shirt deal. They've been for training camps to do exhibition matches in Saudi Arabia.

44:12So I think they've taken it as far as they can. They know that they are under so much scrutiny, that one small step out of line and the Premier League will jump on them. So I think they've pushed it to the limit but have not gone over the line. Villa feel like that club to me where I think if I was a Villa fan every time they feel like they're getting really close they just can't make that next step and is that just basically down to the way football is now the rules that a team like and Aston Villa probably similar size to Newcastle Newcastle have obviously got the PIF or the Saudi fund is Villa almost a team who the rules are basically stopping them now trying to really go for it because they've probably got one of the best managers they've ever had probably the last two or three seasons being as good as what they've had for a long time, probably going back to the early 80s.

45:02Yeah, if you take a look at the two owners, you've got Wes Edens, who's an American billionaire. You've got Naz Suweris, the richest man in Egypt. So they've got the money to put into Villa. You have to grow a club over a period of time, but we saw with both Chelsea under Abramovich and City, you can attach rocket boosters and then the club can on the back of that grow. and be sustainable. Villa are having to operate with one hand tied behind their back. It was great that they have done so well in the league. It's great that they have got into the Champions League and into Europe in the last couple of seasons.

45:37But we've seen this year, they've already had a fine from UEFA. They had to switch players around in terms of one in, one out, as far as the player trading model was concerned, which meant that they couldn't compete as much as they wanted. And they are struggling, even though they've got the capacity with the owner's wealth to spend more, the rules prevent them from doing so. And it is frustrating. Who was the most difficult player you had to referee? I think I'm not the only one. I think Craig Bellamy was just so hard. Everyone said. Everybody did, but he was just so hard. I mean, you know, you see him off the pitch.

46:18It's like most guys you see, even though I'm a finished referee, and you see most guys off the pitch in the final. but when you cross the white line, you guys were the same, you cross that white line, you wet your tits off all week and when you cross that white line and you're just like, the referee's public enemy number one, you do your own thing, you work so hard and you're just so focused on what you're doing and you're always right and I think Craig was that kind of person but since he's finished playing and you see the way he comes across as a coach, he's just mellowed a little bit, I think he probably mellowed a little bit because you see a different side of it and you're looking at a game from a different way now, whereas as a player, you're looking at one way and one way at your tunnel vision.

46:56As a manager or a coach, you've got to keep yourself switched on because you can't afford to blow your top, is what you could when you're a player, because you've got to be on that tech later to coach your players, haven't you? It's completely different when you move away from the game. You talk about players having a goal, you say you're sort of like Craig Bellamy, you just mentioned sort of where you were at referees. I was at referees at times, but sometimes I'd be trying to get you on side a little bit, almost chatting to you a little bit. What I'm trying to say, is there a way that someone you could almost go...

47:29Do you understand what I'm trying to say? Can a player almost get into your head a little bit, where you favour them a little bit because of how they are? I wouldn't say the word favour. I think you can get into your head a little bit. I do get where you're coming from there. I think the older you get, you're a bit more wise to what they're trying to do. I think the younger guys that first get on in the first two years, because the players will know it's the referee's first, second or third year. They'll know how far they can push you. Whereas the older you've been on, 5, 10, 15 years, they won't probably try on as much as what they used to because they know they won't get away with it.

47:58I think the younger the referee or the less experienced referee, you can probably try on with them. The only reason to say that, I always remember in 2001, Geoff Winter was a referee and we'd had him and he was really poor and I criticised him after the game and it went in the press and the next time we played them, he gave a terrible decision against me or the team. It always stuck in my head. And I thought, you know what? I'm not having a go at them, by the way. I thought, well, it's your own fault. Shut your mouth about referees and having a go at the fella. You've got to try and work this a different way.

48:33And it was almost like a lesson for me that it's human nature, isn't it? If someone's constantly on your case or having a go at you, I'm not saying he gives something like that, but it could have gone either way, but it went against us and then ever since that time I always tried I still had to go at referees and tried to get decisions but I'd always try and do it a different way and I always remember a game away at Sunderland we had a man sent off and we were winning by I think we were winning 1-0 or 2-1 and there was still a long time to go and all our lads were going mad at the referee but it was the foreign players having to go at the referee but I knew he would have knew me better if you know what I mean and I went up to him and said you were absolutely spot on there.

49:13He should have been sent off. Someone got done for... Now, I was at centre-back, I didn't even see the tackle on the halfway line. But my point being was, I was thinking, we've got to leave him for the last 20 minutes. That's why he didn't send you off when you fucking absolutely mullered me.

49:28That was on your knee, wasn't it? Yeah. And then I thought you were going to say the nanny one. I got right into the referee there quick. I was in there quick. But, I'm talking about, you're talking about, I always say referees talking about managing the game. I actually think players have got to try and manage the referee in a certain way is there a way of managing the referee as a player? A little bit yeah I mean you can you can you can butcher you like and say well done whether it's agreed or being sarcastic but there is a good there used to be a good rapport with players and referees I thought when I was refereeing I don't know if you thought the same I think that's kind of gone a bit now because I since I've finished not just since I've finished but you guys will watch games now there's not a lot of communication to be seeing the ref and the players anymore before you could talk and have a chat make a decision you still talk about the same decision to the players a couple of minutes later just in general chat but now it's just like decision you know blow your whistle make the decision move on next decision move on there's hardly any communication I think that's lost in the game I just think the ref is like alienating so much from the players I think it's just gone really the wrong way Who was the most difficult manager?

50:38Well I never got on with Arsene Wenger. I don't know what it was. Every time I reffed him, they lost. I don't know. I just couldn't get on with him. Likewise, every time I got Arsenal, I went to Arsenal, there was just something about it when I got there that just didn't feel right. I spoke to a few people who used to work there since they've retired, since he's gone. They said as soon as the fixtures come out on a Monday, they knew I was reffing. Straight away, he's like, oh my God, he's reffing this weekend. and we've got no chance. So straight away, he's knackered straight away and he kind of tagged himself out all the way.

51:13But he was probably the hardest one. I mean, all the managers, you know, you talk about Fergie, there's a bit of a myth about Fergie to say that he used to come in and bat the refs all the time. He never, it was just, he'd say he did for the TV but he hardly ever come in the dressing room, hardly ever come in the refs, sir Alex, hardly ever. But the way he spoke on the TV is if he did come on and it just looked that way for him but he was just, he was just like chalk and cheese them too.

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53:40Does that come into it in terms of when they actually get to the end of their decision? Because if this happened, you know, once the season had started, how difficult is it then or the season hasn't finished? Would something like that come into play? No, no, the people on the commission, they are completely independent of football. So they are operating in their own little bubble. I absolutely agree. If it comes out the week before the end of the season, it would be catastrophic in many ways. From what I understand, both the Premier League and Manchester City will probably be given 24 hours notice of the verdict to allow their lawyers to go away and just check the small print of it.

54:18But then it could be at any point in time. It could be on the day of the World Cup final, for all we know. The Premier League are completely out of this because they simply ask the commission to take place. and they have no involvement at all. Listen, everybody speculates. We wind Luke up on the show every time he comes on. But the longer this goes on, what does that make you feel about where this could actually go? Well, we've got well over 100 charges. We've got well over 115 charges when you actually go through the small print. So what happens if it's 70-50 in terms of favour of the Premier League or favour of Manchester City?

54:59Certainly when we had Manchester City themselves effectively charge the Premier League with these associated party transaction rules, both the Premier League and the club were claiming it as a victory. So trying to sort of sift that into some form of logic is going to be challenging. For example, if Manchester City are found guilty of non-cooperation, which I think is fairly likely as far as their relationship with the Premier League is concerned, they're likely to get a significant fine because that's what we saw happen with UEFA and the deductions there. If it's a points deduction, I think the Premier League will claim it as a victory.

55:35So we'll just have to wait and see. Luke, what's the, you know, listen, Man City, the success that you've had, you know, even in the treble, four in a row, all this type of stuff. if it was to come down the wrong way for you in terms of you know would that sort of tarnish any of that for you you've still got your memories you've still been to those games would it are you sat there thinking oh please I really hope that we're sort of not guilty it's not going to undo any of it for me do you know what I mean I don't think any fan you can go back in time and take me out of that stadium do you know what I mean but I think every City fan will probably agree we're just bored I'm just utterly bored of it it's just dragged on that long was it not you just dragging it on well Pep said when the charges came out Pep said like straight away City have been condemned or like all the talk of it we've been condemned before we've even had a result like this hearing and stuff like you're saying there's no announcement on that made so as far as we're concerned we're just bored of all the talk of it to be honest I think a lot of other fans are just sort of anticipating what's going to go on with it it's just dragged on so long hasn't it so yeah Wayne I think some of the charges go back to when you were playing when you were going for a title with City I think I've got that right haven't I So what I'm saying is, would you look back at City as a team?

56:47You know, you come up against them probably when this all started, the charges go back to, would you look and go, oh, they cheated us out of a title? Would you just look at it and think, that was 11 v 11 on a football? Yeah, no. See, I actually feel for the players, for the City players. Obviously, if they're guilty of doing it, then they deserve to be punished. But it's not the players who are guilty, so I feel for the players. So in terms of when City won the league last day of the season and we didn't, it's not something where I'd say, oh, I want to get that Premier League medal because they've cheated the way to it.

57:24It'd be more, I hope they get the punishment now, which they deserve for doing that. It's not the players' fault. So that's where I look at it. I'm not really too fussed on when I was a player, what was going on above them, what they were doing. Both them players won the Premier League title for their performances on the pitch. And that's how I see it. Yeah, OK. All right, we've got a fan debate community question to us all here. So it's from Laura from Burnage. And what would we all consider a fair punishment if Manchester City were found guilty? Relegation. Get them gone. Transfer ban. No. I don't want them to get deducted points, especially this season.

58:06Maybe next season, but I want to win this one, fair and so on. Vegas can't be choosing, mate, do you know what I mean? They can. I think a three-year transfer round. But again, it's quite funny we're talking about this because you're saying if City get found guilty of what? You've just said there's well over 100 charges. You could get found guilty of one thing and 999 others are completely fine. It would have to be renovation. What are we debating? Are we talking about if everything got found guilty on everything? Is that what you're saying? Well, like the majority, for those serious charges, because it's not just FFP, is it?

58:34it's like fraudulent, some of them borderline the charges. We've seen teams be deducted points, haven't we? So it would just be that, but in... If you relegate them, for me anyway, it would change the sort of dynamic of the EFL in a way that... I wouldn't say it doesn't punish them, but if you think about it, they would probably bounce straight back. Even if you put them down in League One, it's sort of a loaded deck anyway. Some empty seats in the empty hat in League One. Did the EFL have to accept them? No, we can only get given a points deduction that will relegate us. The Premier League aren't saying City are getting relegated, that's the punishment.

59:09They would, in theory, give us a points deduction that would just take us down. There should be a points deduction for every season that they broke the rules, for every season. So how many seasons they've broken the rules and that's been agreed, that's how many seasons that happens. Because it needs to be long-term. I mean, I agree with you, I feel for the players because they're the ones who've played and they deserve it. And I feel for the fans because you can't control it, who I don't feel for is the club. And what about all the fans that maybe, like other teams who are competing, they're never going to get those moments that you got, Luke.

59:39Those stole, potentially. I think the board took it away by sacking Mourinho, to be honest. Keenan, what is realistic? Well, the Premier League cannot relegate Manchester City to League One or League Two because that's an EFL decision. And Manchester City have not had any charges proven against them by the EFL. So therefore it has to be a points deduction. So if we take a look at precedents, we've had Everton and Nottingham Forest with six and four point deductions for a single offence in effect covering a three year period. The accusations against Manchester City cover a nine year period. So it's far bigger.

1:00:16The numbers involved, we're not certain about, but they're likely to be quite significant. So I think you have to add a zero to what we've seen in terms of Forest and Everton. So somewhere between a 40 and 60 point deduction, I think, would be on merit to be consistent with what we've seen with other decisions would make a lot of logic. If they want to go further, then we don't know the severity. In the case of both Forrest and Everton, they were to do with FFP purely. The accusations against Manchester City has already been hinted at. This is why it's taking so long. Corporate fraud is a very serious accusation.

1:00:53The board of directors would have to go. How can you be in a meeting room with other members of the Premier League, with the Premier League itself, of whom you're a shareholder, with this accusation being proven? And again, if you take a look at what happened with Juventus in Serie A, the Juventus board had to resign when they were claiming things about player wages which were proven to be untrue. So I think there's an honesty issue here, which would mean that if Manchester City are found guilty, and Manchester City, by the way, incredibly confident, as are the Premier League but Manchester City are very common then the board has to go and that could be a complete restructure of the club.

1:01:31Gareth, you've been quite prominent on this show and what you do on your podcast and different things about fighting for supporters to get cheaper ticket prices and you've spoken to MPs about it as well. Where are you with the World Cup? Have you got anything you want to ask here? Not so much on the World Cup I think it's sort of being covered there. But, you know, in terms of the Premier League, you know, the sort of the network of people that speak to the clubs that represent fans that have helped to produce this document, Stop Exploiting Loyalty, which is what we take, we talk to Parliament.

1:02:08You know, that campaign's ongoing and we're all trying to get the message across to our clubs that, you know, we think with the current broadcast deal, there's plenty of revenue coming into clubs. Liverpool got mentioned before. Liverpool have got 702 million, I think, according to the Deloitte Money League. Now, what we're hearing across the sort of network of fans is a lot of worrying signs that a lot of the club, like Brighton have already gone, I think, but a lot of the other clubs are going to follow in terms of putting the ticket prices up once again. And what we're worried is that clubs want that to become the norm and that we just sort of, we go away, if you like, and that every year we just cop for the fact that our ticket prices go up and up and up and up.

1:02:49until you can no longer go. Now, what I know from fans who do go regularly home and away and that kind of thing is that, you know, their wages aren't going up at the same level. You know, you've got clubs quoting your costs, clubs quoting your inflation. Well, wages aren't following those things. And also, costs are going up for us. You know, our lechie's gone up, our gas has gone up, our shopping basket's gone up. You know, everything, as a footy fan as well, your loyalty is exploited at every turn. So it's not just tickets, it's travel, it's food, it's drink, it's subscriptions to TV channels they're on about there being another one next season on top of Amazon Sky, TNT and whatever.

1:03:28So everywhere you turn it gets harder and harder to do the thing you've always done. And Kieran said about Totti, our culture here is home and away, going every game, supporting your club through the wind and rain and all the rest of it. For us, clubs should value that, clubs should recognise that, that's the point of difference about English football is the passionate stadiums. It's not people politely clapping and eating popcorn. It's scarves, flags, songs kicking off a little bit, they're being a bit of an edge to the grounds. And, you know, I'm sure we've all been to football elsewhere around the world where it isn't that.

1:04:05There's people waving little white handkerchiefs and stuff and politely clapping, and that's their culture and that's our own. But ours, like I say, the points are different. The thing that makes it a good TV product as well is all that side of it. So it's almost trying to say constantly, you know, you're killing the golden goose here. And my question to Kieran would be, you know, as an economist, academic, someone who's constantly sort of, you know, understands the football finances, if you like. When you've got someone like me who's campaigning and advocating from a fan side, and then you've got someone who works at a club who's only thinking about revenue, what would you do if you were, you know, refereeing that fight?

1:04:46How would you stop us continually clashing heads season after season? Well, I'd point out that during COVID, we had this... The Premier League always says, oh, football's nothing without fans. Well, we had football without fans. And it was watching a training exercise. What fans do and what real fans do, and I'm not being snidey towards those people that have come from overseas because for them, it's a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. I absolutely get that. football fans turn a piece of architecture into a living, breathing organism. And that is great for the TV audiences. And I think it's great for the game as a whole.

1:05:28I think the problem you will be coming up against, and I suspect you've already come up against it, is that the clubs will say, if we take a look at the takeover by Ineos of Manchester United in terms of operations, Manchester United are now generating an extra£50 million a year in ticket income compared to where we were pre-COVID, they will say, well, 85 % of£50 million, that's what,£44,£45 million, that goes into the player budget. You want us to sign players, and they will use PSR and SCR, they will use all of these things to try to browbeat fans to make you feel guilty for saying, well, hold on, I've got 40, I've got 50 years of, at some times, some pretty rubbish football.

1:06:14now their attitude is stay in your lane you should be grateful for where you are I've worked with West Ham fans with Spurs fans if you reach my age now you've got to be 67 before you can have a deduction as a senior and by the way all those boys and girls that you've been sat with for the last 20 years we're going to stick all the seniors away from the people and again you've got that little community I don't know what they do for a day job but when I go to a match those people around me have been doing it for years upon end and you're losing that and you're losing part of the identity and the history and the heritage and part of the reason why the game is part of us

1:06:58Luke you've got a question? Yeah I was just going to ask both of you really when you're commentating is there anything the other commentator does or just generally when you're watching a game that like annoys you like what's like your pet peeve kind of thing when you're commentating with the person you're with or just when you're listening in general? Listening to other commentators, is there anything in particular that they do that you think, I'm not a fan of that? I don't know, I'm just trying to think. Well, Martin's obviously far too diplomatic to be critical of another commentator. You know what?

1:07:28Sometimes I think people criticise this about co-commentators, and I'm probably guilty of it. People say they speak too much. but whereas I said before about Martin having a real love for the game commentators I'm a very close probably second behind I could watch a game that was nil-nil and find something to sort of keep me going or it might be a system or it might be a formation and I can't help but chat about football commentating if you know what I mean and I do sometimes when I come back and I just think maybe I did talk a bit too much or sometimes you're in the game actually and you think I've been talking for a bit and I might actually go you know what I'll just put my mic down for a few minutes you know and leave the commentator to it and almost think hang on I've probably been speaking a bit too much there but it's only through a sort of an enthusiasm for the game so I would imagine other commentators might say that about me or viewers that I might be thinking when I'm sat at home thinking oh can I have to stop talking for a bit but mine is a genuine sort of enthusiasm for what's in front of me but sometimes I do I have to go almost tell myself, just shut up for a minute, you know, just stop talking.

1:08:41I think I talk more now because I'm working with commentators for the Premier League productions and for other organisations as well, where I'm not, I don't have the fellowship and the friendship necessarily. I mean, that's not to say that we don't interact or anything like that, but if the commentator's less experienced, then I feel I've got to contribute more and it annoys me. so goodness knows what happens for those who are listening around the world but it's you can't do it perfectly we've tried every time you go out you try to do it perfectly but it's unscripted it's a reactive thing to the game so you can't say oh if he does that I'll do this you just have to let the game happen and try and go along with it I've had a lot of help from people in the game in prepping for games.

1:09:36People take me into their confidence and tell me what the teams are. I remember it was one Man United-Liverpool game and I thought I'm the only person in the country that knows both teams the night before the game. I'm sure I wasn't with all the skullduggery that goes on and everything, but I have been told by both managers what the lineups were. And it's a massive, it's a responsibility to do that. You know, you dance. Sometimes you don't even talk to your colleagues until the teams announce. I can confirm that. Yeah. I think, because Martin had been in the game so long and was so respected by every manager, I think, I might be wrong saying this, but it felt like 99 % of the time you would know both teams before they came out.

1:10:21And I would say 100 % of the time you never told anyone because you never told me or Gary what you knew before, through a conference thing with the managers, that you didn't want to lose that respect or bond you had with them just to let us know the team maybe 15 minutes. No, I think maybe 15 minutes before it came out or something like that. But I'll tell you the one story, I'll try and make it quick, where knowing everything and respecting everything didn't help. Alec Ferguson told me about, there was a Manchester United Cup replay at Sunderland and they'd drawn at Old Trafford and it was midweek and in those days you had the manager's direct line in the office and things like that I was lucky to get him and he said well we're going to play differently Paul Parker's going to play as a sweeper and oh gosh so anyway so I'm privileged this as I travel up to the northeast and get to the ground and of course some of the managers Peter Reid and Peter Reid's best mate Andy Gray so I go into the office Andy's already there and Andy goes guess what Man United are going to play with a sweeper and so I go I know but I can't say that I know because I'd be betraying the confidence so what we agreed with I was party to this but it was in the end Sky's decision we put up if Man United play like this Sunderland will play like this and if they play like this with a sweeper Sunderland are going to play like that so we sort of hedged away through but I knew I was in a sticky situation but I hadn't told anybody I didn't even participate in this conversation that I knew so the game's played and Sunderland score first Phil Gray, not many people remember him but he scored and then Parker is taken off so they go back to their normal way of playing United score twice in the second half and win 2-1 through to the next round.

1:12:31So I go back home the next morning and I go home and then my wife says to me, there's a Mr. Ferguson on the phone. I think, oh, I pick up the phone. Well done, Alec. You know, it didn't change a thing. Then it was like, you so-and-so, Sunderland, knew that this was happening and everything. I said, I swear I never told anybody. And I didn't. But he didn't really believe me. I genuinely believe to this day he doesn't believe me. But I know what happened. I found out what happened. There was a player, and I have never named him, but you can work it out for yourself, but I won't confirm it, who had recently moved to Newcastle from Manchester United, who was mates with the Man United players, and he'd been told that on the day before the game, they'd worked out this system in a training ground game.

1:13:17So the word had got to him from some of the reserve players who played against the first team in the training ground game that this was going to happen. and because maybe his thoughts, having left Manchester United, were not so positive about the manager, he told Sunderland. And that's how it came. I'm saying nothing.

1:13:44When Arnie Schlock came over, I was talking to him about me and Arnie Schlock were a Calvin Harris together and I beat her. That's maybe where Liverpool's problem started. I've been talking about Dan and Gary Logan I needed to be there what do you think this sounds like you were there with me, was I? I can't remember what state was I in this has been a Global and the Overlap production

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