Van der Sar: Man United Career, The Ajax Way & Advice for Lammens | The Overlap Exclusive

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2:42I hate goalkeepers.

2:45Gary Neville: Absolutely hate goalkeepers. it's the only goalkeeper actually I like I should have said that it's a bad statement hardest job in world football than it got Manchester United goalkeeper your scouts are sticking the piss out of my statement it's the hardest job in world football Manchester United goalkeeper do you know what I think it is? go on then name one more name an outfield position in the world that's got a tougher job I think England goalkeeper is harder than Manchester United goalkeeper no I mean look it's a tough job get it but it's not Manchester United goalkeeper He's constant. England goalkeeper, every blue moon.

3:18Gary Neville: So you think Jordan Pickford has more scrutiny than the Man United goalkeeper in Arda? I think he would if he f***ed up. But he's done all right, Pickford, for England, hasn't he? What are we doing here, Gary? We've come to Old Trafford to interview Edwin van der Sar. I always say about Edwin, Edwin restored peace at Old Trafford after what I think was quite a disruptive timing defensively and I think at the back after Peter leaving in 99. We had so many goalkeepers try and claim that number one spot and didn't really have stability for a long period. And when Edwin came in 2005, it just restored calm straight away and you felt safe again.

3:57Gary Neville: Incredible, actually. He goes from Ajax, incredible team, Juventus, one of the biggest and greatest clubs in Europe, to Fulham, which is an interesting journey. And then all of a sudden goes back to United. But he was made for here. There was a period that I say was my best period of football that I've seen at Manchester United. It was the start of the 2006-07 season when we won the league game for the first time. I got injured in the February of that year when we won the league. But in that six months from August, September through to February, with Rio, Vida, Patrice, incredible. Incredible.

4:34Gary Neville: And it felt to me that Edwin coming in was a big part of that. That piece of the jigsaw is really important in getting that goalkeeper. Goalkeeper is so important at a club, particularly if you're going to win a title. Here we are! Gary Neville! How are you? I'm good, how are you doing? Edwin's got a vast experience. Obviously he's been a CEO at Ajax. I always thought Edwin actually would be perfect for this role here. Ajax have a very strong DNA that they've never moved away from really. Young players, producing players through their academy, the style of play. What I want to ask him about is what are your non-negotiables really as a CEO of a football club that's a giant?

5:13Gary Neville: This is going to be unbelievable, this one. On the pitch we were better than on the camera.

5:17Edwin van der Sar: It's quite difficult for new players to come into an environment where expectation is high.

5:22Gary Neville: Which goalkeeper in world football that you watch now do you think is the best at what they do? Couture, Donnarumma. Hi guys.

5:30Edwin van der Sar: Are you enjoying the tour? Who's your favourite player? You. What a lie! What a lie! What a club needs is, I think, stability.

5:38Gary Neville: The spine, the same in a football team. You would sit down with Mark Overmars and speak to Eric and say, look, why did you make that substitution? Why did... I think in general, it's the job of the technical director. You're not really on to the question.

5:49Edwin van der Sar: It's a political one. So, I'm going to ask it again in a different way.

5:55Gary Neville: Okay.

6:05Gary Neville: So, Edwin, let's go back to the very beginning. And when we first put in goal? Yeah. Eh? Sorry, let's start again. Fucking hell. What a shit question. I thought you were a professional. I am a big professional. Well, you're supposed to answer the question rather than say, yeah. When were you first put in goal? And you went, yeah. To get back to English, guys. You joined Manchester United in 2005 from Fulham. Yeah. What's your thoughts when you first arrived at the club? Yeah, this was the pinnacle to...

6:40Edwin van der Sar: Yeah, the... OK, that's how I got.

6:44Gary Neville: We're really good, but this is going to be unbelievable, this one. On the pitch, we were better than on the camera. Edwin, so your first time in this tunnel was back in 2005. You joined at the start of what was to become a golden period, but that wasn't how it was sort of at that time, was it?

6:59Edwin van der Sar: I think you struggled with goalkeepers a little bit. I think the name and fame of United was immense. 1999 was something great for the club and for yourself also. And probably in that time, in the time in between, different kind of goalkeepers had difficulty playing here. I played for big clubs, Ajax, Juventus, Fulham for four years in the Premier League. I think I knew already what the intensity of the Premier League was. So at that point, OK, I was 34, but I thought I had still a couple of good years in me. And yeah, that was OK, I think, at the end.

7:33Gary Neville: What were the first words that Sir Alex Ferguson said to you? Did he talk about the problems that had existed in the goalkeeping position?

7:39Edwin van der Sar: Yeah, he said about Tim Howard, great, great lad, great goalkeeper, having good reflexes, but he's still very young and he needs to learn a little bit more. And I said, I need some stability at the back. I said, we still have a young team, some players, of course, some stalwarts like Gary, Paul, that kind of stuff. But yeah, we need some stability and a strong leader at the back. And I think you will be suited for that. And yeah, that felt exactly the words that I needed to, not to convince me to come to United, but that was me.

8:11Gary Neville: What did you feel when you first got here? Obviously, you're going out in front of 75 ,000 people. You played four years in the Premier League at Fulham, but obviously it's a big difference. Did you feel the pressure or because of your experience, you were fine?

8:23Edwin van der Sar: I think the first day I walked into Carrington, it felt like a warm bath. It felt like this is the area, this environment that I would thrive on. Quality players, young players, established players, a great manager, good facilities and fantastic stadiums. So I felt from day one, I felt home.

8:41Gary Neville: I mean, look, for my side, because I can talk about this, it did feel like when you came that order was restored because we'd had a very disruptive period with goalkeepers. I've quite often said that being the Manchester United number one goalkeeper is the most difficult position in football you didn't quite find it like that but can you see why others have found it difficult?

9:01Edwin van der Sar: Of course all the scrutiny is you expect what's called shit to save every ball every shot and goal you need to save and if a ball goes in players, people supporters they look at the goalkeeper ok when he goes through your legs ok you know it's a mistake but in general just make the saves demand high level of working together, coaching. And on that part, I always did what I learned from, let's say, 1990, when I started Ajax, through my period at Juventus and Fulham. I think everything collided together to come here at my age, at this big club, and play the football that we wanted to play.

9:42Gary Neville: What were the demands here different in terms of the football team? Because you've come through Ajax. Ajax is total football in our minds when you think about it. Juventus, one of the greatest clubs in Europe, then Fulham and then Manchester United. How did those style differences test you along the way?

9:58Edwin van der Sar: I think with Ajax, with the football that we wanted, and then the back pass rule came in. The goalkeeper couldn't pick up the ball anymore, so Van Gaal started to work on playing from the back, looking for spaces to play the ball, also play outside the box. the style of Juventus they promised me that we want to play like that also but Italian football you know also it's okay you score a goal then everybody goes back for me my type of being a goalkeeper my type of game is spaces in between the defence and myself and I can play with that so if there's a through ball or whatever but if people are close to me that doesn't bring out the strongest point to myself so I need to have space in between so Juventus I didn't play my football I made too many mistakes so I never really felt comfortable in England and in Holland the game of football the appreciation that the fans have that felt more natural for me than Italy

10:55Gary Neville: Was that the most difficult time in your career at Juventus?

10:59Edwin van der Sar: Yeah, I think so You said you made mistakes just talk us through because when a goalkeeper makes mistakes at a big club Yeah, okay but that's what you mentioned here about with other players and I never felt really comfortable the players were nice of course I had to learn the language my type of goalkeeping is all about coaching, making sure that the people are there, if the two footballers are running back, I have to get them back if the cross is coming and somebody comes in the back I coach, I tell them what's happening in Italian, I think I spoke Italian in 4 or 5 months but it's 0.5 seconds slower to say, man you're back or close the gap, then I do it in Dutch or in English, so that That made my game different than in Holland or in England.

11:45Edwin van der Sar: That's a little bit like I was in Valencia with the Spanish as well.

11:48Gary Neville: How's your Spanish? It wasn't 0.5 seconds slower, it was a lot more. I'm interested, obviously, you've got a vast experience. When you came to us, you felt safe straight away. But you talked about the goalkeepers that had played at the club before. Just talk to us about the goalkeepers at Manchester United in this last few years. I want to talk Thanks Thanks mate I just want to talk a little bit about the goalkeepers we're allowed on the pitch let's just walk we can walk over into the six yard box of course let's just go into this six yard box in front of the Stratford end the place where you obviously stood many many times and just talk a little bit about the goalkeepers at Manchester United in the last few years particularly Andrean Arna because obviously you work with him at Ajax and then he goes to Inter Milan and he does very well and he comes to Manchester United Can you just describe from your side, obviously knowing him well, why that just didn't quite work?

12:45Gary Neville: Tell me what's happened there.

12:46Edwin van der Sar: I've worked with Andre for three or four years, I think, at Ajax. He came as the third goalkeeper and he was very eager to step up, become second and first goalkeeper. I thought, and I still think, he has tremendous qualities, reflections with his feet, everything. But somehow he has an odd mistake in him and an odd thing that you think, wow, that's crazy. How can you do that? And that's what you said a little bit also before. You want stability. You want to know what your goalkeeper is doing so the back four can relate to that. And I think that's what happened with Andre also a little bit. And I think that's not only for the goalkeeper, but also for the players and for the whole club.

13:33Edwin van der Sar: Stability, man, that's what you never had in the last six, seven years maybe. the back four changing, the center half changing, the midfielders changing. So the coaches are changing. So there's never been stability. So this is quite difficult for new players to come into an environment where expectation is high. You need to win trophies. You need to play Champions League or reach Champions League finals, all that we did. So that's not only for the position of goalkeepers is difficult, but also for a winger or for a midfielder. Because a lot of players that came here in the last eight, nine years have not reached the level that people expected to reach.

14:10Gary Neville: Did you think he would succeed when he first came?

14:13Edwin van der Sar: When he first came to the club, did you think he would succeed? He did. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Because I worked with him, I've seen him at Ajax, had an experience in Italy, did really well, so played the Champions League final. So I thought it was, yeah, like a match made in heaven. It sounds a bit strange, but Tanakh was here. So he knew a lot of players. Mataj was here. Martinez came. So that's, yeah, that's the connection. They played together and with Ajax they reached the semi-final of the Champions League so why can't they do it here at a much bigger club and with better players

14:43Gary Neville: and then just throwing it forward a little bit Senel Armens comes in and he's young he's never played at the level before but he reminds me a little bit of you and that's not to be fair to put pressure on him in respect of he obviously has not had the career that you've had or anything like the achievements but that composure and that sort of what would be that way of the way of operating feels quite similar to you do you see some similarities?

15:07Edwin van der Sar: Absolutely yeah it's it's a guy come from Belgium so I think he's down to earth Belgium and Holland it's quite similar people from Holland down to earth? a little bit yeah yeah yeah yeah you sure? yeah yeah it's alright but you see he's doing well of course it's only whatever seven eight months but I think he knows the physicality of the Premier League I see him coming for balls at the penalty spot. He claims them with confidence, makes the saves when needed, not looking to make saves that are maybe unnecessary and everything. And of course, I'm not here day to day and I don't see all the games, but it looks like he has a good package with him to be here for a long time.

15:53Gary Neville: You mentioned a couple of other players there that have obviously played at Ajax. Yeah. And we'll just go through. Are we? Well done on this. there's two or three that have come from Ajax in the last few years obviously you mentioned Lissandro Martinez yeah and I think he came in 2021 was it maybe 2020 2022 22 maybe 22 yeah just obviously there's a lot of tension sometimes around Lissandro what's your view of him as a centre-back in terms of obviously playing in the Premier League you played in the Premier League and came from Holland

16:25Edwin van der Sar: yeah the Ajax he played left-back he played holding midfielder also He played centre-half, so he's a multifunctional guy. And I think with his attitude, the way he plays with a knife between his teeth, that's something that's needed also. And he has a different character. And for me, I think he's a great guy, great player, and hopefully going to be a great player for United also.

16:50Gary Neville: And De Ligt, Matthijs De Ligt, he was sort of like the goal...

16:53Edwin van der Sar: Matthijs was the typical ice youth product. even played with my son also so I saw him from a young age already and I think 16 made his debut 17 he played the Europa League final in 2017 in Stockholm I think he was captain also in that game so I we expected for him many many great things and his move to Juventus was a little bit surprising for us but that's what he surprising in what way? to go to a club like Juventus because it's harsh I think he had Bonucci and Cellini there there so for us it was a strange move but that's what he wanted and his entourage moved to Bayern Munich didn't really go well played some games had some injuries

17:40Gary Neville: Why have these two moves not gone well for him? What do you think has happened? Because he was also like a golden boy wasn't he of Dutch football really?

17:46Edwin van der Sar: And also for the national team and I thought he's going to break let's say the record for most international caps and he still has a good age but yeah Hopefully that he recovers from injury. And I think before this injury that he had, I think he played really well for United. And I think he's capable, for sure, of playing here many more years.

18:06Gary Neville: I'll ask you about one more player. You're the CEO of Ajax back in 2022. You've just sold Lissandro to Manchester United for 57 million, I think. Yeah, a bit more, yeah. Bonuses. Euros. Oh, bonuses. Oh, you hear some bonuses in there. Absolutely. And then you get the call a few weeks later for Anthony for 85, 90 million. Not in the beginning, eh? No, but 75, 80?

18:28Edwin van der Sar: Around that number? Probably£85, yeah.

18:30Gary Neville: £85 million. What's your thoughts as the CEO of Ajax at that time when you get that call and that amount of money is put on the table?

18:36Edwin van der Sar: No, yeah, of course, they started lower, the first offer. But we sold already too many players. We sold the striker, Haller. We sold Martinez to United. Clivework, maybe, no? Yeah, we had a few already. So we sold four players, five players. We had a new manager coming in, a new technical director. So we said, OK, it's enough now. This is the team where we've done it. And then, I think two, three weeks before the end of the transfer window, out of the blue came the call from United for Anthony.

19:09Edwin van der Sar: Our transfer money was already there, so there was no need for us to sell. So we put our foot down and no... Not for sale. Not for sale. And the player, yeah, he went on strike, he didn't come to training, all that kind of stuff. So, a young boy, having a chance to come to Man United, his former coach was there also. So, it took a little bit of a while, but at the end, there was money on the table that a club like Ajax or a club from the air division, yeah, you can't refuse that. Were you surprised at how big the offer was? Because you liked him, obviously, at Ajax. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, OK, but they were quite reluctant to pay that.

19:55Edwin van der Sar: And of course, I said, yeah, I don't want to lose the player because we sold five players already. So it's a no for us. So, yeah, I took some hard negotiations. And I think, yeah, they came over to Amsterdam once. We had a few phone calls and had meetings. And at a certain point, let's do it.

20:13Gary Neville: Were you surprised when he came here that he struggled to settle in? Because obviously you've got a lot of faith in him.

20:18Edwin van der Sar: We had a faith in Holland and everything, but he only played a year, year and a half as a starter. So I would have thought for him, for his development, you need to stay one more year. Then you're going to be a top, top player. You play all the games here. You play Europa League, Champions League and everything, win the league again. And then you make a step to one of the big three top competitions. But being Man United, being his former coach here, maybe they made him praise with the salary compared to whatever. I don't know, one or two million euro in Holland. What you can earn here is for a lot of people life-changing, for the family.

20:55Edwin van der Sar: So, yeah, his interest to go was obvious.

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23:38Gary Neville: Let's go back to your playing. So you're here at Old Trafford and your defence, let's go to the 2008 season because you've got Wes Brown at right back. You've got... Where were you then? I was injured, if you remember, in the 2008 season. You've got Vidic and Ferdinand and you've got Patrice Everett. Just talk to us about the sort of defence that sat in front of you. Particularly, I think, particularly the centre-back pairing because there's been a... There's a couple of stats come out in the last few weeks about that pairing being probably the best of all time in terms of keeping clean sheets per game sort of like the average Jamie Carragher says that also?

24:11Gary Neville: You're a fan of Jamie Carragher as well?

24:13Edwin van der Sar: Absolutely So go on talk to me about Vidic and Ferdinand Okay for me coming here and Ferdinand said already of course every year we need to get the best players and we're going to develop the team even further but to play with Rio and with Nemanja yeah that was for a goalkeeper one was capable of playing with his feet and Rio didn't want to take a tackle. Just to make sure he was, let's say, a nice, comfortable player on the ball. And Nemanja was a rock. He flew into every little challenge. He was there. Patrice going down the line, Wes or John O'Shea who also played in that position. That was, for me, ideal.

25:00Edwin van der Sar: and I think the way I could communicate with them, when you're standing here, you know how big the goal is. I knew what to say against Rio, Termania, or something, stay left, stay right, and I was sure that I could take a step to the left and protect this side of the goal, and they had this part of the goal. So that combination with each other, that you can communicate with each other, even when there are 80 ,000 people in the stands, if you have that connection with each other, then you have a triangle where you can build on trust and know whatever happens there. We have a clean sheet at the back.

25:35Gary Neville: We've got a cover for you. Let's talk about goalkeeping and the evolving nature of goalkeeping. I think it's something like 15 passes per game now. I think there's an average of 30 passes a game usually for a goalkeeper. 15 of them are short now, whereas back when you played in 2006, when we look at the statistics, I think only three of them were short. Are goalkeepers being asked to play too many short passes now? Do you like the way in which it's developed?

25:58Edwin van der Sar: One of the first football-playing goalkeepers, so I like to play football, and I like to be involved with playing Rondo and all that kind of stuff, and on the pitch play short passes. But it feels a little bit that nowadays it's a little bit exaggerated. Too much? Too much. Of course, I know the new one, that the player plays the ball to the goalkeeper, and that one, or maybe the guy is there on the touchline, on the byline. I find it a little bit showing too much football, dragging the opponent a little bit too much. For myself, I always looked forward. I always wanted to play a guy in the midfield.

26:35Edwin van der Sar: If there's space in between. And maybe the tactical changes and the data system and everything. How to defend, how to play. Maybe that's created. That's something that you really have to draw the opponent a little bit more towards your half or to your penalty box and then create spaces. But I always look forward to play the ball forward because that's where we need to score a goal. And to take so much risk, sometimes you have like 25 seconds where every ball is like, ooh, ooh. Ooh, yeah, ooh.

27:04Gary Neville: They're nearly giving it away.

27:05Edwin van der Sar: And then, okay, and after 23 seconds, we kick a ball long. I know.

27:09Gary Neville: Look, I'll be honest with you. You're always wary, I think in our position, but more mine because I'm on television more than you are, that you sound like an ex-player who's not evolving with the times when you say, this is just a nonsense. but I've started to say it more in the last 6-12 months because when I see goalkeepers playing it back to centre-backs on the byline and then I see them all of a sudden kicking it up the pitch like you say 5-10 seconds later and I see teams who haven't got the technical ability doing it it just feels totally and utterly wrong where is it? because you're part of the Dutch school of Louis van Gaal but come from Johan Cruyff and some of the greatest football of all time and actually innovative systems what is it what is it where does it come from why is it there because I must admit I'd like to see gotten rid of completely from a point of view I don't want to say that coaches think that there's a benefit in it at all I don't understand it

28:04Edwin van der Sar: I remember also like two or three years ago even Holland had like also like a Sunday morning football programme and they were showing every what happens on Friday Saturday like a goalkeeper or a team in the second division or a lower first division tried to play the ball and everything losing the ball and getting a goal against you. Yeah, yeah. And that's, yeah, okay. The main thing in football, don't get a goal against you. Just whatever. Then they have a bigger chance of winning the game. So I think that, yeah, it's over-exaggerated a little bit. And of course, coaches like, whatever, Pep and everything, and how keep the ball.

28:34Edwin van der Sar: And I'm in Holland, they have possession. Then the other team can't score. So that helps, of course. But possession here in this 20-yard area, that's for me not a way to play forward.

28:46Gary Neville: Yeah. One of the things, I think when people talk to me about you, I always thought that your greatest skill...

28:52Edwin van der Sar: Who talked about him?

28:55Gary Neville: When people ask me about you, they say, what about Edwin Anders as a goalkeeper? Or they ask me about Peter Schmeichel. But I'll say, I thought your greatest skill was not wanting to get involved in the game unnecessarily. Do you understand what I mean by that?

29:08Edwin van der Sar: Some people ask me also what your biggest quality is. I didn't really want to make a save, for example. I want to make it organized as good as possible, that you are there or that the guy is not giving a cross, that I tell you keep right, keep left, whatever, or keep on the inside, same to Rio. And making sure that the danger goes away, but if the danger is there or if there is a through ball or a goal or somebody heads the ball and goal with a corner or something, I need to be there. So to organize, I never thought of myself, I get the best reflexes. I'm the sharpest. I am the quickest, the best shot stopper.

29:47Edwin van der Sar: But I thought I was a good communicator, making sure that all the qualities that the right back need to have, the center halves, the left back, defensive midfielder, I need to make sure that I can see everything. I wrote a paper also when I did my management course, leaning from the back. I normally a director or CEO, whatever you lead from the top down. For me, this is great. You can see everything. I got everything. So I see you, I see Patrice, I see the guys. So I move with everybody. So I got the overview. And of course, a captain needs to be in the middle or the 10 or the 6, to my show in the midfield.

30:25Edwin van der Sar: But the goalkeeper, he can see everything. He can organise and see where the danger comes from.

30:30Gary Neville: Which goalkeeper in world football that you watch now do you think is the best at what they do? Which is the one that you look at and think, yeah, that's a proper goalkeeper?

30:39Edwin van der Sar: I'm still a big fan of Neuer. even after his injuries at a certain point but he's older now also Courtois Don Ruma that had two great years at Paris of course I'm not really sure how he does at City yeah yeah those guys to be fair

30:55Gary Neville: so Courtois I can see a bit of Courtois in you absolutely in terms of sort of like the evenness frame and the way in which he sort of operates

31:02Edwin van der Sar: yeah it helps that helped me a lot like say I'm 6 '6 so it helped me a lot to be big and tall yeah but nowadays you see the goalkeepers how they we trained as, like say, a one-on-one, you stay like this. And nowadays, whenever they come out and they do almost a split. So football evolves and also the art of goalkeeping evolves by different techniques, different ways how to come to position, try to block something. Let's walk off the pitch. Yeah, it's been 10 minutes now.

31:44Gary Neville: Just talk to us a little bit about the... I mean, honestly, it's unbelievable. The instant you had, the illness you had, the... Yeah. I mean... Are we okay? I'm okay, yeah. Yeah, what happened? Did you notice something? No, you look great. I mean, absolutely brilliant. But just how...

32:02Edwin van der Sar: Yeah, I think my wife had in... I think you remember that also, 2009. And I played at United. And I had it three years ago. I was having a great holiday sailing holiday in Croatia the last day in the hotel I just got up I went to the toilet and felt dizzy and felt my neck and I came back in the room and said close the curtains and I sat in my bed and I'm not well and at a certain point she called the doctor and yeah so I had like a brain hammer it's wow yeah

32:32Gary Neville: how has that changed you since that point in terms of obviously it happened to Anne-Marie obviously you know 15 years ago 16 years ago

32:39Edwin van der Sar: One of the things that helped at that time, I just quit my job at Ajax director. So like five weeks before that, I resigned. It was a big step, of course, for me, but I felt great to, yeah, I brought Ajax to the point where I thought, okay, this is, maybe I don't come bring any more to the club than I did. So it was a surprise because I had a great holiday. We were all relaxed and something like that happens to you. So you come to him, you go to the hospital, you're intensive care. so I was three weeks in hospital and then you start a recovery process rehabilitation and as a player you know that also you want to have the best people around you and get a programme fitted for you I had no pressure getting back in a job no phone calls, no emails no decision making so I think that helped a lot to recover to the level that I am now Was there any sort of

33:34Gary Neville: what would be reasoning I mean you've obviously been a CEO for the previous few years at Ajax, which is a giant of a football club, is there a relation to sort of say, all of a sudden you've been in this really stressful role, but without knowing it, because you don't perform stressfully you don't act stressfully

33:50Edwin van der Sar: No, but you're also a businessman, so you know there's a lot of stuff that's happening and going on

33:56Gary Neville: That's what I'm trying to say, I imagine that the stress that you were under in that period and the way in which you approached things was it a case of you finished would that have had an impact on it do you think

34:07Edwin van der Sar: I don't think so I think whatever it happens also that people at 67 they go with pension or something and you always hear oh do you remember that old neighbour from down the road yeah yeah the gym teacher yeah just had a heart attack ok but you have 99.8 % of the people who retire or go pension they live till 70-35 so for me I think it's a fluke yeah maybe it's connected but and no known cause no known Yeah, snaps. Something happens in your brain or the back of your neck and you're out.

34:41Gary Neville: And does it make you look at life differently? Obviously, you'd had the previous experience with Anne-Marie on it, but does it make you feel, do both of you feel more reflective, more perspective?

34:52Edwin van der Sar: No, I'm not that type of guy. I think what happened, what was nice for me, whatever, I wanted to have a rest. I wanted to take a year out of football, go to some other clubs learn some new things and then whatever make a new step and now it's almost three years ago so that time to recover to find the time no stress no phone in your hand just not in a rush just doing the stuff that you wanted wake up when you want walk the dog go swim in the sea go on holiday I went two months to New Zealand with Adam and Marie so did nice things that I never had to do because I started playing at 18, 19. Finished at 40.

35:37Edwin van der Sar: 41. Became one of the directors at Ajax. Yeah. Until 53. So I thought that's the time. Take a step back. And that's taking a little bit longer than I originally thought, to be fair. But we are enjoying ourselves very much. And you can do this kind of things coming over to Manchester. A couple of... Last week we were in the Caribbean. Can I swap? it's an easy life but you don't really want to swap also to work in a competitive environment it's nice also working with a group people managers do you want that back? no let's talk about it

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39:16Gary Neville: We're up in the direct box at Manchester United and one of the things that fascinates me most about you is your transition into the boardroom at Ajax. Was that always your plan when you finished playing football?

39:27Edwin van der Sar: No, I got a call, I think, in my last year, 2010, from people at Ajax. Listen, Johan Cruyff has an idea that wants to get more ex-players involved into the boardroom at Ajax. people who know European football, know that one plus one can be three, who think a little bit differently than directors who have a business background. So I spoke with him, spoke with some other people and I liked the idea. But I said I first want to take a year off because the nicest thing about football is playing football than being a coach or being a director. So I took a year off, did some nice things, did commercial stuff also for the club.

40:14Edwin van der Sar: And I had a management zero course that I did in Amsterdam. And yeah, then they came again with the question. I said, okay, I like it. And the idea was always to combine it. They were looking for a new CEO who can lead the club and also can help me get into the trade, the small things of the business side. So I shadowed him for, I think for three years. And then after that, I took a step. My position was also to be like, talk with UEFA, speak with ECA, speak with the players. So on the commercial side, of course, I had a big profile, just finished my career, coming back from Ajax, coming from United back to Ajax, just won the Champions League so that helped on the commercial side a lot with fans, supporters, with the players knowing what do you need to reach the top and for step-by-step I was ready to take that role.

41:15Gary Neville: So originally it came from Johan Cruyff the idea? Yeah absolutely. And you were still having that level of influence at Ajax obviously at that time?

41:22Edwin van der Sar: At that time Ajax was not going well I think we spent all too much money on all the foreign players, too much wages and We need to go back to the biggest strength, that's the academy. Bringing young players through and making sure they play three, four years in the club and then get a move to a bigger league and hopefully for a good fee. So that was the idea. I think we did that with Dennis Bergkamp, Frank De Boer was the coach, Wim Jong, Mark Oogmaas, technical director. Those five ex-players started that journey in 2010-2011.

41:59Gary Neville: I'm going to ask you a number of questions about just generally being a CEO at a big club like Ajax. What's the number one priority for a CEO at a football club?

42:08Edwin van der Sar: I think the connection with the technical director and the coach, the manager. That connection must be there. Of course, one has to find the players. The other one has to train the players and put out the right tactics to make sure the games are won on a Saturday or Sunday. so that

42:27Gary Neville: and just talk to me specifically about that relationship so you're talking about basically yourself as a CEO the sporting director and the coach how often would you as a CEO sit down with the sporting director and the coach

42:41Edwin van der Sar: I think you sit more with the sporting director on a weekly basis or yeah of course I think ice ice is let's say a smaller club it's a big club it's a much smaller club than this of course so the connection was there. Every Monday he had the directors meeting. You go watch training once or twice in a week. The CEO you would go watch training? Yeah, absolutely. When there was a game on Saturday, you watched the under-19 game on the Monday evening. I was watching the second team also play. Of course, what is important is that developed not young players, so you must know what is coming through. I was lucky in that time also my son played in the academy so I was there on a Saturday so instead of being the director I was there also as a father and looking and seeing the players and what I told you I saw Matais playing, Joe played with Massery also, Noose was also in his team so those kind of players you see them coming through so that made it easier for me to fill that role.

43:48Gary Neville: What were the major challenges that you had in communication that existed? Give me an example of where obviously if the three of you are on the same page, that's good, but where maybe there's a difference of opinion on, say, an incoming player recruitment. If there's a player that you're trying to sign or if there's a player that maybe the manager wants to get rid of and exit and the technical director and you don't, how does that work in that dynamic?

44:11Edwin van der Sar: Yeah, but of course it's not that easy, let's say, to attract high-profile players to come to the Dutch League Because you need to find young talent players who are just before the big teams or the big leagues are finding them. And that's a threat that nowadays with all the multi-club ownership are. Those kind of clubs are taking those kind of players before they can go to an Anderlecht or an Ajax or that kind of stuff. But to have a real example for how the connection between Den Haag, Overmars and myself, I think we're more or less on the same wavelength. And of course, sometimes me and Mark, we're not happy about a substitution from Eric or why don't you put in a younger player now because we're training a lot.

45:05Edwin van der Sar: Just put one in the young players.

45:07Gary Neville: And would you tell the manager?

45:08Edwin van der Sar: Yeah. Yeah.

45:10Gary Neville: it's interesting because there was a dynamic here a few weeks ago where there was a performance against Wolves and there was supposedly a conversation between Jason Wilcox and Ruben Amrim and I thought it's completely normal for the sporting director to have a conversation with the manager if he doesn't think the performance has gone well and he doesn't think he likes what he's seen you agree with that then you would sit down with Mark Overmars and speak to Eric and say look why did you make that substitution why did

45:36Edwin van der Sar: I think in general it's the job of the technical director Yeah That's something And if the technocrat And the manager Are not agreeing Or something Or the second Third time And then sometimes The coach comes to The CEO That's also I have an issue with that And we have tried to solve that Who has the final say? For who?

45:57Gary Neville: Well I'll give you some scenarios So Ajax Want to sign a player From Belgium The recruitment department Sporting directors say Yes we think it's the right profile you're supportive but the manager says no I'm not sure about him or the head coach says I'm not sure about him what happens then?

46:17Edwin van der Sar: Yeah but I think you miss out let's say if we wanted to buy a player for let's say 10 million we also have to get the go-ahead from the supervisory board sort of like whatever of course I spoke to Richard Arnold also and Ed Woodward on certain times we asked for more money so I have to get back to the owners and of course you make a plan in the summer or in the winter okay we have X amount of money available for salary and for transfer fee in a certain point yeah you have two three players we're going to need a strike a midfielder and a goalkeeper we have 18 million available we got 10 million salary so of course if you come above those numbers then you probably have to get back and every normal company is that so as long as those things are done I think in ideal world of course you want to have that the manager likes the player and wants to work with the player sees points where you can work with and make the team stronger.

47:23Gary Neville: You know, you work with Eric and obviously he came here, but he wins two trophies here and people will debate whether that's a successful tenure or it's not, but in the end it sort of didn't quite work out. What was your view of, you know, you said before that you thought that when

47:38Edwin van der Sar: Sometimes it's not about the coach or the manager. I think it's also about the surroundings of what is there. I think what a club needs is stability. The spine, the same in a football team, if the spine of the team is great, then the boys at the side should be able to win a game. And the same in a football club or an organisation. If the spine of the club is there, everybody trusts each other from top down to the general manager, the technical director, the manager and the coach then you're there but I think there have been too many appointments made and changes at United or yeah that there's never been a really strong bond between all the power men in a club

48:27Gary Neville: and you think that would have you think that to be over the last 12 it's not only the only 12 years that have been since Sir Alex left Do you think that's one of the biggest problems?

48:37Edwin van der Sar: Yeah, we always talk about Sir Alex, but I think David Gill was also a really important factor because everybody focused on Sir Alex. Of course, he was the main man on the pitch, but don't forget all the work that David Gill did.

48:50Gary Neville: But when people... It gets said a lot in football, there isn't the right environment or there's not the right culture. What is that? When you're a CEO at a football club...

48:59Edwin van der Sar: It's difficult to grab that, Gary. Of course, United as a culture, City had the culture they changed a completely different culture of course so sometimes people live a lot in history what we achieved in the past the way we played you used to play football and of course I followed all the the talks on one evening what does the Man United team need what do the fans want to see and of course the last three games it looks whatever it looks a little bit like a Man United team from the past. And that is nice to see for the fans the belief that they get the support that they get scoring a last minute goal that's what Virgis Novo said whatever as long as we draw the game at the end the Stratford end will suck in the goal they suck the ball towards the goal and then we score.

49:53Edwin van der Sar: And that's something that you need to believe in and if you can believe in a team and they're not bad players they're good players only they need a certain kind of structure to get the best quality out of them

50:07Gary Neville: but you've gone into Ajax the club is struggling it's lost a little bit of its way you then come in you win three league titles you get to the semi-final of A

50:19Edwin van der Sar: no no no I think we won about six I think six league titles when you were CEO oh sorry when I was CEO come on Ali don't try and take the ball no no no that was three okay 2012 2012 13, 14 and then

50:35Gary Neville: so while you're there you're in six league titles but when you're CEO you're in three league titles three before you actually become CEO you get to the semi-final and there's a complete and utter change around what did you do in that six years that completely transformed the culture the environment of the football club from when Johan Cruyff could see that it was broken what did you do how did you stabilise the club that's not what I do

50:58Edwin van der Sar: you do it together as a team whatever same as I didn't win the Champions League we win it together and of course somebody scores a goal no but you're the CEO you're the responsible person you're responsible so most of the time you take the flag and everything but I think to give credit to the people who worked really hard and those are the guys who find the player who coach the players who made sure that the stadium is sold out and of course you make decisions and out of the 10 decisions you hope that 7 are the right and the correct ones the best ones and the same as a goalkeeper when you make a mistake you're hoping that you make it in the 10th minute of a game so you still have 18 minutes that your teammates are going to help you and still win the game 2-1 and that's the same if you're in a position at high end in a club of course some decisions are not going to work out but deal with it and make sure that the next one is going to be better yeah

51:56Edwin van der Sar: you've not really answered the question it's a political one so I'm going to ask it again

52:03Gary Neville: in a different way I know you're humble, you underplay your achievements, you're spreading the love to all the team that achieved this with you but the reality of it is, if you'd been unsuccessful in that period you'd be a failure, let's be clear, as CEO so as a CEO you've brought in league titles, you've got to the DNA of Ajax was that because we're going through that here in terms of an identity crisis over the last 12 years I always look at Ajax and Barcelona as teams who have a DNA of football that should never be taken away from them bring young players through play beautiful football that's very different I always think Manchester United have a DNA of bringing young players through since the 1950s they've had a young player in the squad every single week every single match day for that time for 75, 80 years and also play electric and exciting, high-paced, aggressive football with wide players.

53:01Gary Neville: So that's, to me, it should never change, in my opinion. What did you do at Ajax? Did you just go, because you said before, people look back at history. But you look back at history and recreated it. Sir Alex Ferguson looked back at what Matt Busby did and recreated it. History's not a negative. Absolutely not. History can be a positive because it should bring inspiration for what we need to do in the future. Not necessarily in the same way, but you did that at Ajax.

53:26Edwin van der Sar: Yeah, you start with You did that No, no Whatever I never Give yourself a pat on the back Just for a couple of minutes No, no, never I never do But okay, you and the team You and the team I think whatever What you said The DNA of the club Is developing young players It's giving opportunity To young players And in Holland It's sometimes a little bit easier Because as a big club You often win And you can In the 75th middle You can put your young players in And that's to give And we know We lose players Every two every year you lose three, four players. At the big clubs in general, they keep their strongest eight players and add three players there.

54:06Edwin van der Sar: We lose the strongest four players. So for us, it's important to get that movement. We need it for the finance, to sell the players, to grow the budget also. And we have to find the right ones and give them opportunities. So every two, three years, and if you play six years at Ajax, you're probably not good enough. But you also have to win. Yeah, of course. That's the name of the game. That's the name of the game. But to combine it with also attractive football, wingers on the side, crosses coming in, a 10 that scores the goals. Same as Klijfer went to the first post. Jaar Liedmann was at the second post.

54:42Edwin van der Sar: Van Basse did it with Bosman, that kind of stuff. That shouldn't be changing. And of course, even at Ajax also, you want to have, in general, We want to have a Dutch coach. Last year we had an Italian coach, for example. And they didn't play really good football, but they were defensive, very strong. They were on the brink of winning the league, coming from a disaster season after that. So sometimes managers also need to look at what kind of players do I have and find the right tactic. And of course, setting out the lines, how we want to reach European football and how do we want to be as a big team in a small country.

55:22Edwin van der Sar: to be regarded as European elite. That takes a lot of time and dedication, finding the right players, having the right budget. The thing that we changed for example, because we knew we had quality young players, but we needed some older players. So we decided to get two players. We got Dusan Dadic from Southampton. And we wanted to bring stability to help Matthijs De Ligt. we brought Daily Blind Black back from United and I remember I think we sold them daily for 16 and we brought them back for 17 or something bid bonuses by the way if we would have waited to the end of the transfer window in August we probably could have had them for cheaper but we needed to play qualification matches to get into the Champions League so yeah we decided to let's say break down the salary structure and pay him instead of 1.5 million, pay 3.5 million.

56:24Edwin van der Sar: That's really a big step if you have a budget of 70, 80 million, to have those kind of players. And that helps stabilize the club, helps the young players coming through, Donny van der Beek, Matthijs, Neres, Anthony, and a certain point. So that was the decision that me and Mark made, of Mark and me made to make sure that we come to a level, that we wanted to participate and getting the money in from the Champions League

56:56Gary Neville: I find myself in this situation sometimes where I refer back to history in terms of patterns of plays that I recognise when I see things out there when Michael took over against Manchester City a few weeks ago I recognised what I was watching now that's not to say we're going to win the league in the next 10 minutes but I recognised it as a pattern and it's interesting, when you were talking about when you came into Ajax, you referred to Van Basten playing with Bos... He said... Bosman. Bosman. And then you said... Then you said Lippmann and Cliver. You referred to the patterns that Ajax play with and you recreate those patterns.

57:30Gary Neville: There is a thought that, oh, you can't look back through history. You can't look back at how we used to do it. And I disagree with it wholly in terms of the patterns. Not necessarily the way, but the patterns of development, the patterns of play that a club is used to, for me, they should keep them if they've got a very distinct pattern. I think that I see distinct patterns out here and you see them at Ajax. You didn't ignore history in respect to style of play. You actually tried to recreate it.

57:58Edwin van der Sar: Yeah, but that was also the description that you got. This is what we need. This is what we want to see and everything. And that's what... Johan had a big influence on that. And he's been by far the biggest player Ajax and Holland ever had. And he had great ideas about how football needed to be played. And he was totally against whatever guys in suits and ties and everything. So it's about football. And I had a conversation with him also. I said, yeah, but there are probably a lot of more clever people who are able to lead Ajax than... I said, but yeah, you did the University of Life. You played in the biggest stadium in the world.

58:35Edwin van der Sar: You were there exposed with 11 guys and everything. You took the pressure. You made saves. you won the Champions League, you lost finals, you got booed, you got cheered. So, yeah, you guys, football players, are not really faced with bad publicity or something. Of course, everybody will accept, oh, yeah, you did really good. But, OK, but you have to deal also with negativity and everything. And that's something that he...

59:02Gary Neville: All right, guys, how are we doing? Are we good? Yeah. Are you enjoying the tour? Yeah. Good. Who's your favourite player? You.

59:10Edwin van der Sar: Ah, here we go.

59:12Gary Neville: What a lie. What a lie. OK, keep walking.

59:25Gary Neville: Going back to you and you personally, you said that you did before, sort of after your management, the leadership from the back. What sort of is your style of leadership when you've... Obviously, I know what your style of leadership is out on the pitch. You know, you communicate, you try and organise. Was that something Were you very similar as a CEO As you are as a goalkeeper

59:45Edwin van der Sar: I think so I think it was approachable To be there So if I had to go to the financial department And you walk to the office And you stop at a desk And there's a young boy working on I said, what are you doing? Making the match programme for tomorrow Or you stop at the merchandise department And oh no, we work on the new outfit For the training collection

1:00:08Gary Neville: you're basically saying you looked after people and you

1:00:10Edwin van der Sar: I think so, I think if you give warmth to people, let's say maybe maybe I shouted to you once or twice because you lost the ball, but in general I'm down to earth, I like to talk to people and not shout at people and I think if you give people warmth and support and they are probably the best, hopefully the best at that thing that they needed to do either, of course, I need to know from everything a little bit, but I'm not the greatest in numbers. I'm not the greatest in finding the commercial deals for. Scouts are much better to find, but if they show three clips of three players, I can see which player has the best touch and would probably fit in the system, but they need to find it.

1:00:55Edwin van der Sar: And if they come with which, whatever, left winger, yeah, probably this probability that this guy will fit in the system. Yeah. It's easy for me to see than someone else.

1:01:07Gary Neville: Do you think that, because there is a thought process that the CEO of a football club needs to be someone who has, to be fair, got great experience in business, but you didn't have great experience in business, you had great experience on the football pitch and Johan Cruyff believed in you. Are you a great advocate now of ex-players being in the boardroom and being CEOs because they see football like football should be seen? What's your view on that in terms of how that... Because there are people who say they shouldn't be in the boardroom and there are some people who say more players or more ex-players should be in the boardroom.

1:01:40Edwin van der Sar: I think it helped me a lot. It helped Ajax a lot and everything. And of course, it's also about which kind of position are you getting, what kind of responsibilities do you have. But in general, to have someone with actually football knowledge to be there, to help the technical director, to help the coach, to be represented for the club, to the supporters, to the commercial partners, to the local community, to the mayor, whatever, I think you're involved with maybe a new stadium around, the redevelopment here. Those skinks will help the club further, I think. And so in that way, I think it's the knowledge that players gained over 20 years.

1:02:24Edwin van der Sar: And of course, not everyone is the same, but some people like it, like to be on the pitch. I never had the ambition to be a goalkeeping coach because just to work with three or four goalkeepers, I found it too small. So this, for me, to try to touch and give something back to the club that gave me the opportunity to play and to get to a world level at Ajax, to give something back to the club. And I think all the players who did that, with Mark, with Dennis, with Frank de Boer, that was something great.

1:02:53Gary Neville: Would you like to get back in? You've had a few years off now. Would you like to get back into the game and in the boardroom?

1:03:00Edwin van der Sar: Undecided yet. I have some conversation with some headhunters, some parties, some multi-club ownership, who have multiple clubs. I have not found the right project yet and also not have made a decision yet. I think my life that I lead at the moment, I travel a lot, I do a nice thing, do some commercial stuff in Asia. At a certain point, you feel the knowledge that I gained,

1:03:27Edwin van der Sar: to take a step. I'm 55, so I think I've still four or five years to give to the game or to an organisation. So it doesn't have to be like a football club. It can also be an organisation that goes around football. But that's something that has to do with sports. I'm not like a multi-talent like you.

1:03:45Gary Neville: Have you ever had a call from Manchester United? Obviously not in the last few years, you wouldn't have done. Have you ever had a call from Manchester United about a role here?

1:03:50Edwin van der Sar: Yeah, I spoke with Ed I think twice about taking up a role here. At that point I think I was not finished at Ajax. I think the path that we were going on, we were not there yet. So, two good conversations with him, separate moments. About what role? Not yet just a role into the club and probably would be something beside him. I think Ed did a great job of leading the club and mainly on the commercial side. Of course, he was involved in the sale of the club to the Lazers. On that point, I've been with him in meetings with the ECA many times and the quality on certain aspects from him has been great.

1:04:34Edwin van der Sar: But you probably say it would be nice to have something on the football side beside him. And I think now, I think the last two or three years, I think United is trying to more get the football side organised and not only have that by the CEO, I think, of David Gill and Ferguson. Yeah, that's not going to come back. That's not going to come back.

1:04:57Gary Neville: Just in terms of, you mentioned a role before in the organisation. Are you talking about the likes of UEFA? Would you ever work for FIFA or UEFA when you look at those organisations?

1:05:08Edwin van der Sar: I was set in many commissions during my time at Ajax at the ECA with UEFA I was involved with the Club World Cup development of the third of the Conference League football the Youth League payments to try to block payments to agents to limit the amount of money that didn't work did it? fucking disaster fucking disaster

1:05:32Gary Neville: do you have something I have to say obviously we deal with agents in football I think they're in this I think they're a necessary part of football for football players because when I think that clubs, to be fair, have very hardened, ruthless business people running them and that young players of 20 do need some representation, I'd like them to have a lawyer or an accountant, but they have an agent. However, the payments out of the game to agents is criminal. Absolutely. What have you tried to do in that area?

1:05:59Edwin van der Sar: I had many conversations about it with Mark also. And also, you signed a deal. you're on the table with the deals and everything. It's hard. I spoke to other clubs also. So listen, if you want a player from me, give me a call. So why do I get a call from the agent? That club is interested in that player. So why is that? Why is there? I sit with you in a board. So why don't you give me a call? And we do that.

1:06:26Gary Neville: What's your worst experience? Come on, give us a horror story.

1:06:32Edwin van der Sar: No, yeah.

1:06:33Gary Neville: Not a horror story. Don't name the player, but give us an experience that you've had as CEO of Ajax where you thought, this is just completely and utterly wrong. Give us an example so that we can understand the severity of the issue. Don't name the player.

1:06:46Edwin van der Sar: Or the agent. I have to think, how can that relate back and everything? But no, I think sometimes you have agents who are asking a ridiculous amount of money or when you're renewing a contract and sometimes you renew a contract with a player and one week later the agents are already working for the next deal. So I think everybody needs to earn a decent amount of money. Like a director wants to earn, a player wants to earn, a manager. But yeah, the percentages that are being roamed of a deal from a South American player or an African player coming from a club in Belgium to Holland and then to England, I found it, I wouldn't say criminal, but it's too much.

1:07:34Gary Neville: What other things in the game when you've sat on the sort of ECA, UA for sort of what would be commissions, what other things in the game really do you think are positives and what do you think are the things that need changes apart from obviously the agent's payment side?

1:07:48Edwin van der Sar: I was whatever I would advocate because let's say at that time in Holland we only had like one, let's say, Champions League position, for example. So to make sure that the Europa League and the Conference League, there's also money to be earned. Because not all players are born in Manchester or in London or in Madrid. So you need to make sure that the development for football is also in Romania, in Finland, in Holland, in Bulgaria and everything. So if those countries can sell a player to Holland or Belgium for three, four, five million, they can have extra coaches, better facilities. And when you sell someone for a hundred million, That money needs to drip down to the former club, and of course to the player, a little bit to the agents.

1:08:34Edwin van der Sar: That money needs to make sure that the future football is there. Sometimes big clubs only want to play big clubs. That's of course for the TV revenue extremely important. But you see also, small clubs can win also on the day from very big clubs. Yes. Luke last week, Bode Glimt, I think, from City. But also, as Ajax, sometimes we lost against Heracles, and a week later we won 4-1 in the Bernabeu in the Champions League. So, 11 against 11, if you have a good coach, if you have a good momentum, that time at Ajax we had the momentum going to do something special. We had young players, you had experienced players, and that's what you need.

1:09:18Edwin van der Sar: if you have belief back into your club, into the manager, into the board, into the fans, you can make something happening and that's hope we're gonna be there also. It's freezing. How are we doing? Well done, Edwin.

1:09:33Gary Neville: Good. Oh, shit. It's freezing. Oh my god.

1:09:57Oh,

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