194. How A £600bn 'Ghost Market’ Is Being Neglected

0:00Bugger it, we need to make menopause the new vegan. The biggest chat I ever have with any women in their late 30s, 40s, 50s now. I drew the M-tick and I said, this is going to be the world's symbol for menopause for 1 billion women globally. And six minutes into the page, they went, how can we help you? Is this of commercial benefit to the retailers? There's a 20 % market share. This is an audience that demands needs and deserves better. Monzo Business is the proud partner of The Rest is Money. Now, did you know that over 600 ,000 businesses are already banking with Monzo Business? And mine is one of them.

0:38To celebrate us teaming up, we've got a special offer for you. New customers get Monzo Business Pro or team for free for the first six months. Just head to monzo.com slash the rest is money to claim it for your business. Now, maybe you run your own company and you're looking for a bank with the solutions to make your financial admin easier, like expense cards. that help your team serve loads of time as your business grows. Just go to monzola.com forward slash the rest is money to learn more about the special offer and find out which of their plans is right for you. Offer is available to new Monzola business customers only for either Pro or Team plan.

1:19Offer ends on the 31st of July 2025. After the offer period ends, Pro will be£9 a month and Team from£25 a month. Expense cards are only available with Team. Only sole traders or limited company directors in the UK can apply. T's and C's apply.

2:06hello and welcome to the rest is money with me steph mcgovern now this episode is about the economics of the menopause and if you've just heard that word and thought hang on right that's me it's now to do with me i'm out don't you need to listen to this because this is about business as much as anything else because we're talking about women worth a lot of money both as consumers and workers too and there are around a billion of them globally and yeah people companies are talking way more about the menopause than they have in the past but they are still hugely underserved essentially a ghost market so heather jackson started a business called gen m which is working with all the major retailers on branding to change things for menopausal women and she's got some incredible statistics on what it's worth and why it all matters.

3:01So here's my interview with Heather Jackson. Heather, it's lovely to have you here because when we first met, it was at a massive global retail conference and you gave a very moving speech about how underserved menopausal women are as consumers. And before we get into the chat, there'll be people who have just heard the word menopause will go, oh, this isn't for me. I'll turn it off. Either A, I'm not a woman or B, I'm not at that point yet. But I guess what I want to start with is why this matters to everyone. So can you just give us a sense of that, of why talking about menopausal women and why they're so important as consumers?

3:47Well firstly menopausal women are so important because actually if women thrive the world thrives and actually when you enter perimenopause or menopause you're at the peak of your life with your career, your children if you have children, with your aging parents but everything should be at a time when you should be swinging from the chandeliers, you've got your friendship groups and everything else and actually only 5 % of women with our gen m research has said that they felt confident in menopause and it's a period of life that can last up to 15 years and only 2 % felt that they were thriving now when you look at those figures you suddenly start to realize then that actually is there any wonder why women are leaving the workplace in the highest rates that ever in this period of time is it any wonder why they live in relationships or relationships are breaking down if only 2 % are thriving?

4:37Is it any wonder, sadly, that, you know, many women in this period of time, if they're going to take the life that's in this period of time? And, you know, these are sad things because actually it's not needed. You know, we want women to aspire to live a great menopause and yet 85 % of the population right now say my menopause isn't that bad. Not that bad. Suggests it could be better. And actually, why, as a 21st century world, are we aspiring to live a not that bad life? for what can be 15 years. I want to live a bloody great life for 15 years. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. So really, you know, societally, we need to understand it better.

5:14Highest rate of women leaving the workplace, highest rate of relationship breakdowns. But actually, we need to aspire to actually encourage more women to live their best menopause. Yeah. And so there's loads in there that I want to get into. But there's also the economic case here because you know this is that's what we look at on this podcast is the money side of things the business side of things the productivity the growth and everything else and there's there's a case you're making really strongly here about the economics of the menopause as well well actually if you look at the economics of menopause again so the the women who are leaving the workplace and everything else this is the most powerful spender with actually you know she's she's she's the biggest decision maker as well.

5:55And yet for the consumer, she's feeling that she's underserved, she's overlooked. 87 % of women feel that they've been let down and overlooked and underserved by the retailer and brands right now. And actually, when you look in the papers yesterday, and you see that the cost of living crisis is going to have an impact on loyalty for retailers. Well, actually, loyalty and trust. I set up Gen M because I felt that I was let down by the brands that I've been loyal to all my life? Where was I fitting in their shopping? Where were they thinking about me? Where were they understanding that I got sleep depravity and brain fog and how were you helping me?

6:30So there's a 600 billion global market here for this underserved audience. And yet, you know, right now, 87 % of women feel underserved, overlooked, 66 % can't find what they're looking for. Now, if you take it, and I mean, I know that I'm not being flippant, but, you know, when I say make menopause the new vegan when it comes to consumerism. I'm not being flipper. I'm saying, actually, there's 3 % market share of vegan who have a life choice. And actually, for the last 40 years, marketeers, brands, retailers have built that audience from being almost like, you know, punk, elitist, you know, animal rights.

7:10It was a very niche market. And you look at it now 40 years later, and it's a vibrant, inclusive market. And that's great. And they've really serve that audience well for 3 % but in the retail world there's a 20 % market share of women who are overlooked and let down 15.5 million women in the UK, 75 million in the USA and 1 billion globally who where's our understanding, where's our signposting, where's our customer experience. So when I say make menopause a new vegan I'm asking the retailer and the brand to treat us like they did the vegan, understand us, support us, give us what we're looking for, needing, demand and deserve.

7:46So I guess the question then is, though, is this of commercial benefit to the retailers or is this just nice to have? Because you're suggesting, you know, they've got to look after us, menopause, women, blah, blah. But is there a commercial benefit? Because that's what they care about. We're on your podcast. And actually, you know, at the end of the day, the world is made of money and money makes the world go around. And I don't have a fear about talking about the money within menopause because money spent and delivered purposely will drive societal growth. but it will also drive commercial growth as well.

8:17We've seen from actually igniting the biggest retailers like Tesco, like Boots, like Sainsbury's to give designated space to menopause friendly aisles to actually give better signposting. It's already showing an uplift in sales. It's showing a driving performance that we've never seen before because this market, especially in the health, beauty and wellness, is the fastest growing market. So why wouldn't you actually understand this woman better? So, yeah, the benefits outweigh anything. And, you know, I am not afraid to say there is a purposeful commercial opportunity to drive growth, drive market share and actually drive loyalty and trust.

8:52All the things that a retailer will be absolutely driving forward with the teams, but they're not looking under the nose at what's the underserved audience that could do this for them. Yeah. And again, I want to get into what you're doing at Gen M, you know, this company you set up. But there's another, it's interesting because, you know, I'm someone who feels like we've only started hearing about the menopause in the last kind of five years or so. And then there's this whole niche market of the perimenopause, which is the bit before that. So I think that's the bit I'm in now. Although the other thing is, it's so, I guess, under-researched and not talked about that much.

9:27it's really hard to work out whether you're in it or you're not in it. So tell me about this then, and let's get into the business side of things and what you guys are actually doing. So this business, Gen M, came about because of your own experience, isn't it, of hitting perimenopause. And can you just explain what that is to people? I know that even the definition of that is near impossible to find. Let's be honest, perimenopause and menopause. I mean, you said, oh, I'm in the bit of perimenopause. Actually, I think that's the most important bit, because that's the bit we know little about but actually you don't say one day as a teenager oh i'm a teenager today you go into puberty and you get sports and you see you know and you get monosyllabic and you slam your door and everything else but you know where it's coming in try being a 45 year old woman slamming a door and being monosyllabic it doesn't work in society but what what we needed to do is perimenopause is the period up to menopause now menopause is only one day in your life it's the one day after 12 months of no periods, that's the day that you are actually in menopause.

10:27But menopause, it is like an adult teenage pubescent. Our hormones are changing all over the place. We're actually transitioning. And I want to just highlight to any men listening on this that menopause isn't a disease. It's a life transition. And actually, it's a life transition. We actually have to just understand it better. It shouldn't be something to fear. It should be something to go, I'm entering this period of my life. How can I have the best lived time in this period of time? So Gen M was set up very much because I couldn't find the products when I was perimenopausal that would help me have a better lived experience.

11:03I was on the deep dark web five years ago looking for climate controlled bedding, looking for a foundation that wouldn't run down my face. Now, people say to me, you know, with RMTIC, and we'll talk about that in a moment, but they'd say, well, how does a foundation help with menopause? well it's actually back to those stats five percent of women only five percent of women feel confident in menopause if you're going on a podcast if you're going in a board meeting if you're going sitting on it on it as a cashier on a till and you've got your makeup on and it suddenly starts running down your face you tell me how confident you feel this is all about giving yourself the opportunity to live your best so to me when people say to me oh I can't believe like you know foundation would would be menopause friendly I said well you haven't actually had a hot sweat so you and and up to the point where you reach perimenopause you were a really successful businesswoman weren't you and you know as you say peak of your career brought your kids up everything looking great and then you hit a kind of a point of well despair I guess yeah well do you know what I think in in in this world right now we as women always look to find a quick excuse for what something's happening to us so we put it down to oh my kids have left home or or I've changed my career and we think that that's why we're feeling like we're doing and actually I'd got to a great place in my life I've always been about choice and opportunity for women and I built an incredible business that actually supported 30 ,000 women take their careers to the top and you sold the business as well didn't you?

12:27Yeah cashed in on the business so I'd never had money in my bank I'd never had the kids in such a great place it was my time to thrive and actually my time to go and see the world I got Kilimanjaro, Base Camp Everest all these bucket lists that I was doing and I'd booked for and then six months into it I started to feel like I broke down in a Sainsbury's over the fact that I couldn't find the strawberry yogurt that I wanted and yet there was 12 other strawberry yogurts but the one that I want and I'm like you know I was very emotional I'd get into bed and I'd ache I'd have to turn over and ache I'd gone I was lethargic I'd stop you know I'd fall asleep in the afternoon and my kids and everyone said mum it's because you've lost your purpose you know my whole purpose had been driving choice and opportunities for women and everything else.

13:09And I'm going, no, my purpose was to get to this point in my life where I could do all the things that I'd wanted. And everyone said, no, sorry, it's because you've cashed in on your business and you don't know what you're doing now. And anyway, it was a girlfriend at the time who became my co-founder. She said, you know, I've been to the doctor several times. I'd had lots of tests for thyroid, for, you know, my bone cancer, you know, you name it, I'd had it. And every time it came back negative, but I was going to the doctor so much, I felt like, you know, a hypochondriac. I felt like I was like one-to-one with a receptionist and not actually anything.

13:42And I wasn't a woman who goes to the doctors, do you know what I mean? But I just knew there was something not right about me because at the end of all my tests, they couldn't find anything. They said, we think you're depressed. And it was quite funny, really, to have cash in the bank, your kids all happy and actually traveling to base camp Everest. And yet you're taking antidepressants because like, this is the worst time of your life. And it was my girlfriend who said, Heather, I think, I think you're perimenopausal. And I'd never heard the word Steph I'm really embarrassed now five years ago I'd never heard the word perimenopause well I hadn't until recently yeah well I couldn't spell it to start with you know what I mean it was like but anyway when I googled it there was I mean at the time there was 34 symptoms that came up and it was like oh my god I've got all of these this is brilliant because I don't know about you but I'm a problem solver yeah you know it's like a rational explanation for things show me what what I've got this is what I do so my friend came back and I said oh my god I'm perimenopausal she said see I told you and I said right I'm going to spend the next two days looking for products that can help me support my life and she went well good luck there and I went what do you mean good look there she said well you know I've been perimenopausal for the last three years and I can't find climate control bedding I've made my own pajamas out of a gym kit and everything else that would breathe and wicker sweat and everything else and she said honestly I feel so let down it's untrue and I was like you go to work because I'm not working now I'll sort our problems out how hard can it be there's the internet and you know 34 signs and symptoms and i'll find us some products for when you get back anyway long story short when she came back home it was like actually i've been on the deep dark web today it felt like i was soul searching and she just said it's terrible have you just cut you've all the brands like your marks and spenders and everything else but you thought that you've next you've supported all your life you bought their coffee table but you know you got that free you know it's been part of your life that all of a sudden they didn't see you i said right well let's commission a research report and actually let's just see where we stand on this so we commissioned what was called the invisibility report and it actually proved 87 % of women felt let down overlooked underserved 66 % couldn't find what they're looking for I said right this research has come out consumers are definitely being lost here and I said right let's build a one-stop stuff for menopause it was just one of those flippant comments you do over a bottle of wine we actually created our working title was moogle we were going to be the google of the menopause everything that wasn't yeah everything that wasn't hrt because again it's not about hrt or not to hrt it's about choice yeah and just to point out hrt is obviously hormone replacement therapy which is what a lot of women take in order to control their symptoms so we built this website i i worked on it and worked on it and worked on it spent two years working on it and i don't want to think about the money was spent on it.

16:23I then went out to the biggest retailers in the UK and said, we've got this great website and we want you to put menopause friendly products on it that can help a woman through her menopause through the 48 from climate control, bedding to foundations and everything else. And they went, what's menopause and what's it got to do with us? Now on the sixth rejection, one, I realized we were too ahead of the game because I went, what do you mean? What's it got to do with you? There's 15 and a half million women in the UK who are in this period of time, 80-10 % feel that you're letting them down 66 % can't find what they're looking for and they really want a symbol that they can trust as well they want something to give them the trust the choice and the confidence and the education to have a better lived experience and so on the 6-1 I realised no one was looking we were like two sandwiches felt like a picnic and anyway off the 6-1 I came back and I said Sam I don't know what we're seeing that no one else is.

17:21But actually, I went then, bugger it, we need to make menopause the new vegan because I got angry then. I wasn't angry at the beginning. And I was a solution finder. It was like, well, if we build this one sort, so all the women can go through it and then into their different brands that they like. And we were only going to, you know, affiliated costs, we weren't even looking at making a huge amount of money. It was just like, this will be the easiest thing. Anyway, long story short, I came out and went, right, we need to make menopause and you're vegan we need to get the consumer to realize this is an audience that demands needs and deserves better so there's the vegan v and i'm gonna well i'm gonna draw something out now and we're gonna call it the m tick and so it's an m with a tick on it and that was our menopause friendly symbol so like and just to explain so like the vegan v you get on products that tell you it's vegan so we created the m tick but actually we didn't we just had a symbol and And actually, Sam kept saying to me, we need to bring accreditation in here.

18:16We need to do this. What are you going to do with it, Heather? I said, I'm going to go to one. You know, I want to build a symbol that's built on trust, delivered on trust, created on trust. But actually, we're just two perimenopausal women. What credibility have we got? So I said, I'm going to go to the UK's most trusted retailer. I'm going to go to Boots. And I'm going to show them this Emtek. And actually, we'll see what happens then. So I went to see Boots. And was it easy to get in to see Boots? like when you're saying when you've been talking to these retailers what was it like getting through the door well i mean i had no experience in getting into retail my previous business and all had been in the financial institutions but you know what polite persistence gets you anywhere and actually you know you treat the you treat the pa as well and everything else i've just been a person who if the door's shut i'll find a way to have it open so anyway i got a meeting with boots and literally i drew the mtick and i said this is going to be the world's symbol for menopause for one billion women globally but it needs to be a symbol of trust it needs to be a symbol of respect it needs to be a symbol of efficacy and I said I can't do any of that but you can and actually I want you to create it with me and six minutes into the page they went how can we help you how can we do this now I've said often that boots could have taken that symbol then and gone bloody great idea we'll do it for our stores we'll do it for this and that's it we'll own it but they didn't they knew that I'd said that actually to change society and build a great category in retail we've got to collaborate we've all got to collaborate so they worked with us with their pharmacy team their medical teams everybody to actually build the accreditation so that was a robust symbol that could work on supplements and technology as well so like it went across all criterias and explain to me then because you know it's obvious with a vegan v that that's telling you there's no products no ingredients in it that are going to have anything connected to animals um but with a menopause what are you what is it you're telling people and we're telling them that actually these products that have got the mticon have got credible in robust technology research development to actually do what it says on the label now you might actually go well doesn't every product do what it says on the label and as a naive woman five years ago as a naive consumer I thought actually what when it says it's going to do it it will do it well unfortunately it doesn't some products haven't got enough ingredients in they'll have the right ingredients for sleep but they won't have enough of it in to make any difference so to to build out a credible symbol for menopause we needed it if if you're going to say this is for sleep now there's 48 signs of menopause from you know sleep to privacy right through to itchy skin thinning hair if you're going to say this product is for thinning hair prove to me that it's for thinning hair prove to me what you've got in it is going to do what it says on the label so what we did was we worked on the whole 48 signs we built up a compliance team who work with us now and actually they absolutely take the products that are wanting the m-take and they put them through rigorous research and the The company have to prove it clinically, medically, all through the research, prove it, that they can say what they do on the label.

21:31Now, you might go, well, that's just common sense. No, in this consumer world, we haven't got time for products that aren't going to work. All the money. Yeah. Believe it or believe it not. Building this credible trust symbol is now allowing the menopausal consumer to shop with confidence. So she might be going through 48 symptoms. She might only have two of them. But when she buys a product that has got the M-tick on it, she knows that it will work for what her problem is. So give us an indication of how it's going. How many products is this on now? What's the plan to grow it? And, you know, what difference is it making?

22:08Because the pitch sounds amazing, but is it making any difference? Well, we tested it with boots in 1 ,000 stores on 150 products before we went out to any other businesses. We've now got 120 brands and we've now got nine of the biggest retailers in the UK working with on designator space, better signage and then better choice. We've got 120 brands with over nearly 2 ,000 SKUs now. We've been able to go to the biggest retailers and not only just tell them and suggest to them and prove the purposeful commercial growth they'll get out of giving designator space. So you're doing this with big retailers, like big supermarkets?

22:43Tesco, Sainsbury's, Boots. And are you doing, have you got like, is anything happening globally? So you mentioned some cracking names in the UK, but what's happening? Well, I mean, it really is exciting because now we're in negotiations with the top biggest retailers in the USA to take it out there. We've got the biggest retailer in Asia, 7 ,500 stores. We've just set up our country manager in Australia. And so within the next 18 months, we will have taken the biggest territories in the world with the biggest retailers in them to start this going into designated space. And it's important to point out this isn't a social enterprise, is it?

23:20Oh, absolutely not. This is money. This is business. This is commercial gain. Yeah. Well, that's the hardest thing I found on this because as a woman and a businesswoman, you know, money, as I said, makes the world go round. I've never had a problem accepting my value as a woman, negotiating my salary or negotiating my worth. But as soon as I said we were doing this, everyone said, oh, well, is it a not-for-profit or is it a charity? And it was like, it's neither. I said, how can we ignite the biggest retailers and the biggest brands if we're a charity or a not-for-profit there's ethical reasons why i wouldn't want to do it because you put menopause in a charity position we're already people are feeling sorry for us yeah and we're 50 of the population every woman will enter menopause so you know i didn't have a problem with actually saying if we can inspire the retailers to understand the commercial growth here but actually then deliver it with purposefulness we can actually change society so Yes, we're a commercial project and we're going to be an unbelievable successful business.

24:17But I didn't set out to have an incredible legacy making, game changing, category creating business. I just set out to be a fed up menopausal woman who wanted to find what she was looking for. When I look at some of these brands, they spend millions in consultancies looking for like a 0.05 % increase that they can do like for like against another retailer. 20 % audience under charge of look get on with it understand them walk to shoes wear the glasses and be them and deliver to them I do think you could sell me anything like sit tight for a couple of minutes we will be coming back to you but first a quick break

24:58along with the the M-TIC you've also been doing quite a bit of training with retailers haven't you like you work with Holland and Barrett tell us about what that kind of works involved what you've been doing well I mean at the end of the day we unite the biggest brands in the world to actually commit three things they commit to understand support and serve menopause better so the understanding we have to raise the awareness with them of the 48 signs and symptoms because again you've got world menopause month coming up in october and you know being part of the gen m collective and having the mtick you're not just about selling product you've got to get behind campaigns to break the taboos to normalize the conversation and actually to change the rhetoric from fear to thrive because more women in 2024 fear menopause than they did in 2020 because the rhetoric has been so negative, very debilitating and actually it's been very white, middle class and celebrity as well if I'm really being honest here.

25:51Menopause has got to be more inclusive so again that educating brands and retailers, it wasn't just educating them in the consumer space, it was actually educating them in the workplace as well but you know there's policies and there's policies I'm a great shoot from the hip you can have all the best policies but it doesn't mean to say anyone's ever using them and can find them but actually this isn't a leadership issue this isn't a HR issue this isn't a workplace issue this is a societal issue and actually don't put me on a training program to find out about how better to help my one person in my team who's menopausal put me on a training program that'll help me become a better human being and I can understand all the women in my life never mind just in work how I can help them support them understand them so we work really closely with them not in the policy making but in there how can we change the rhetoric how can we get people excited and how can we get an R &D team to go oh my god we've got to think about menopause no oh my god we've got to think about menopause it's the same words but done differently give them the positive drive to think this is an incredible opportunity to change society yeah because I mean, you talked about the workplace.

27:00You know, there's some Deloitte do their kind of women at work survey every year, don't they? So this is like a survey of 5 ,000 women across 10 countries. They started it in 2020. And it's really interesting. I know you've thrown lots of stats at us, but I'm just going to throw a few more into the mix because it actually, it's depressing. you know the what they found in their latest research which is the 2024 ones was that a quarter of women experience health challenges related to periods menopause fertility and most of them just work through it so they're just getting on with it and then if you look at menopause specifically so women in the workplace going through menopause 40 percent of them are experiencing pain or discomfort they're working through it and they're saying that they don't feel comfortable to talk to a manager about it 16 of women say taking time off work because of menopause symptoms has negatively affected their career and if you look at these several results over those last few years that they've done them things have got worse there's more awareness around it but people aren't feeling better about it or having a better experience at work and again let's just bring this into play here menopause doesn't just impact you when you're at work it lives with you for that 15 years whether you're on holiday whether you're at home and so I absolutely do believe that the employer has a role to play in helping and understand but it's not all down to them it's actually you know if you can't talk to your employer can you actually talk to your partner back at home you know more women there was qvc did a report that showed women would rather talk to their teenagers about sex than the menopause you know and actually this is quite frightening so again what we need to do is actually change the rhetoric around it make it not like it's like a disease not like it that it's something we can't talk about and we as women have to be able to do that as well my mum never talked to me about menopause but i want to be a role model i don't want a 30 year old going actually this is my best life because if that's menopause I don't want it I want women looking at me in the future going well if that's 56 bring it on and there ain't many women feeling that bring it on now that works in the workplace as well I just feel that we just need to make it more societal conversation and I hate it when everything comes down to the workplace because you look at how many women and men are working from home now so it doesn't matter what you're doing in the workplace you could be working from home and it's i was wondering if part of the reason why it's got worse in terms of like these server results is because more people are now being pushed back into the office so you know they were able to control it more at home and then now people are in i mean i don't know i'm just well i mean we have we have to understand as well i mean i was a big player in that um of getting more women to get to encourage them to go to talk we worked with middle managers we in that 20 years ago we all spent time and understand that if the work culture changed more women would go to the top that's what we all believed and actually it's true the work cultures needed to change but no one not one of us and I'm embarrassed as a woman I never asked the question well is there anything else impacting you in why you can't take your career to the top or why you can't feel it we as women went we'll change the culture and I'm off I'm up to the top and no problems we never ask them about menopause so actually understanding we've only done half the solution in getting women to the top which is why I had to come back into business because I feel like menopause and understanding it and changing the rhetoric and getting better support for it is the final bastion to and really allowing women to really have the choice and control to take themselves there so until we actually build menopause as a societal issue it'll always be a workplace issue yeah it's funny because definitely like the dialogue around it's changed because I was just thinking back to when I was on BBC Breakfast early morning starts we were getting up at half three in the morning on on air cheerful whatever at six o 'clock every morning and I worked with some fantastic women during that time Naga Manchetti Louise Minchin Sally Nugent Carol Kirkwood and what I've realized is none of us at that time ever talked about anything to do with hormonal changes at that time I was you know I was going through fertility treatment and pregnancy going through all that quite silently Louise Minchin has now said she was you know menopausal during that time and there was temperature changes in the studio there was Naga Manchetti's now come out and talked about you know the terrible pain and discomfort and things she went through with her reproductive health and you know and I'm sure Sally and and everyone else would have their own things going on and yet we didn't ever talk about it we it's only now i've all we've all gone hey god we just we just went to work and had to be cheerful every morning at six and that was that and and there's an element of you do have to get on with it you can't there is an element of that but it's interesting how that's changing and surely that's got to be making things better it has but actually we can all talk about how hard it was but we need to find the solutions to help you know and actually our generation now oh we found it hard but this is what I did.

32:14And it's funny as well, just, you know, just on that, because even like the chat with my mates now from, you know, the Geordie girls that I've grown up with, I remember we were all talking about our own perimenopausal symptoms. It's the biggest chat I ever have with any women in their late 30s, 40s, 50s now. But we did, we were all sat once drinking half and a bottle of wine going, does anybody know what their mum's menopause is like? Like, do any of us know? Like, we don't at all. Like, there's our formidable women in our lives. And none of us know anything about what it was like. Well, I'll give you a giggle now because, like, my mum, you know, I'm building a global business which will actually, in another 15 years' time, people will look back and go, wow, they created a world category from nowhere and got it started.

32:59But my mum still can't understand what I'm doing. She says, menopause never impacted me. I said, mum, you've got osteoporosis. You're three inches smaller than you were. My dad nearly left you. You know, don't tell me that. You know what I mean? It was like, but that was just life. That's what you just got on with. And it is, but we as women have got to understand we've got a role to play here. We've got to be much more positive. This is our time to thrive. So give us the actual platform to do that. Give us the right support without feeling like you're protecting us and feeling sorry for us. Give us the right support that will help us thrive.

33:36and then the world doesn't know what we're capable of doing and that's what's really exciting. Heather, thank you so much. It's been amazing to chat to you and I mean I've learned loads as well. Thank you very much. Cheers. Cheers and that's it from The Rest Is Money. Thanks very much for listening. Bye-bye.