A George Ford masterclass, as England ‘batter’ New Zealand 

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0:51Alfie: Welcome back to The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times. the question we posed at the end of our Thursday preview was, would we be speaking about a famous England win, or would it be the same old story and a narrow defeat? I'm Alfie Reynolds, Will Kelleher, Alex Lowe. It's history. Ninth victory ever for England against the All Blacks. And they battered them. They battered them. 33-19, second largest win over New Zealand ever, just behind 2012, 38-21. and look the Will Jordan walk in you sort of think ah gloss on the scoreline there but another try another pen properly definitive no caveat massive victory huge scalp beat the second best team in the world delivered on all the promises and it was fantastic and the place was rocking wasn't it Alex it felt different all day here there was a huge roar after a rendition of Jerusalem the anthem them was like notches up on the on the volume scale from the last couple of weekends you just you know it was a big day and it was a one of those test matches where we know there are too many test matches which devalues them you get a day like today where you think that you go into it thinking not certain which way this is going to go we we said on the poll we think you're going to win it was all about today it's not about whatever they might construct around these games in the future and it was a test match that mattered in its own right but for the context of England it allowed them to smash through this glass ceiling that they've been banging up against for the best part of a year I know they came into this game nine unbeaten but a lot of those teams were pretty mediocre beating the USA away beating the worst Wales team that any of us have seen that kind of you know a summer tour where England and Argentina are under strength that that run allowed them to build some depth, build some confidence, build a kind of a newer identity, obviously rebalance the team, as we've talked about a lot with the bench, but still hanging over them was the run of defeats from a year ago, where when they were up against the best, they couldn't quite do it, and they had to prove it, and they proved it emphatically, they smashed that glass ceiling to the point where I think that cycle of this England team should now be over and this is for the future but we can i think there's a new narrative that can be built from this day for this england team going forward but this is the day that it matters on its own and i spoke to our head of sport um on friday night who loved anyone who bought the paper on saturday and read the scrum pullout the front cover of the scrum pullout reminded me of of old england match programs here sort of slashed down the middle white and black it was very simple and the thought process behind that design was it's England v New Zealand, that's all that matters doesn't need anything else but we all know where England were coming from into this game and they did it and it was special it's happened nine times ever, it was special and I think also, I mean, always with these massive wins you are going to have those enduring moments that we talk about like whenever we do the next piece that's the nine England wins against the All Blacks remember that day in 2025 there'll be bits we pick out and the first one was the lucky horseshoe I'm going to call it for the Haka which was really cool wasn't it like we've had all sorts of I don't know a year ago do you remember the whole Joe Marler random chat about the Haka and all that and sort of we had a go at it on our pod of like come on this is a bit ridiculous to sort of say we should ban it and all that but that's theatre that's brilliant and I it's a funny one isn't it because lots of people have challenged the Haka over the years and got it wrong or Wales have done it and got battered and things like that but But it felt like England were lying to us through the week that they weren't going to do something.

4:37Like, I asked directly Amaro Otoji in the week, any flying Vs this week? And he said, no flying Vs. To be fair to him, you can't blame them for not saying, yeah, this is exactly what we're going to do. I actually liked that they didn't tell us. Because then, I'd noticed you before and I was like, I might be wrong here, but I don't believe that they don't have a plan for this. And they did, and it was really cool. And it seems like they designed it so that Pollock was the youngest player on one side of the horseshoe. and Jamie George, the oldest player, was on the other. And they actually wanted to do a V, but I think they flattened it a bit.

5:08And so that's why it became this lucky horseshoe. But that kicked us off an amazing fashion. Well, it did, because actually the All Blacks reacted to that. They actually lost their shape a little bit. They marched much further forward to get as close to England's face as they could. But England had sort of set out their stall doing that. And then the game went the way it went, which was like, at one point I thought they'd blown it.

5:30Alfie: one point on the hacker that i wanted to address today which england fans always get criticized for singing swing low during the hacker and can can we just i just want to mention we had richie mccall one of the great all blacks on the pod in the week and we asked him about that and he said yeah it's great great it adds to the spectacle it adds to the theater of it like can we squash the whole concept that singing swing low during the hacker is disrespectful it added to the theater of it New Zealand responded in their own challenge it's not like people are booing it so I thought the hacker the anthems everything was was just awesome in terms of the game today all the build up in the week was have this England team learn from previous defeats as you've just been saying Alex they have they've answered a lot of those questions what questions in particular in terms of the game did they are because I look at them going that the start of that game the opening 20 minutes England actually had the best two early opportunities Ford across kick we'll get on to George Fordy was sensational but a cross kick that actually it kind of messed up they had another pass that didn't go to hand when they were broke they had two golden opportunities to score and I was thinking about your piece Will in the week and you mentioned it on the pod of this in England team that get into the 22 and don't take their opportunities New Zealand then go and score two tries in quick succession I was that was what was in my mind but this is an England team that has learned because that didn't end up being the story of this game yeah I was I found it infuriating watching that first 8, 10, 12 minutes because England spent the entire time in New Zealand territory were banging on the door and couldn't score and there were just execution errors.

7:05I think when Alex Cole crossed the line, he ran straight into a phalanx of All Blacks defenders. I'm like, you've got to be smarter there, you've got to be smarter. All Blacks showed how ruthless they are. Suddenly they're 12-0 up. But what this England team have developed over the last 12, 18 months, through that period where they kept losing these games is an ability to think on their feet a little bit. So we talked about drop goals, didn't we, on the pod. Take the credit, go on. But it felt to me watching it that I know England scored, try it was 12-5, but England needed to get themselves back in the game.

7:41And so the next two times they were down in New Zealand territory, George Ford, drop goal, drop goal. Suddenly it's 12-11 at halftime. Suddenly you're thinking England have got a group of their best players still to come on the field and they're in the game and so it was the ability first of all to react to the match situation and not panic and stem that it was two blows in four minutes wasn't it that the All Blacks scored to just go okay foot on the ball let's go back down and let's take our points this time with you know kind of I guess back to Marseille the Argentina World Cup game you know no team in the world drops that many goals but George Ford has it in his memory bank.

8:18It's three points, it's three points, right? It brings England back into the game at halftime. Then a yellow card goes England's way early in the second half. And before you know it, they've scored 25 unanswered points. Then they face this kind of period of pressure again because they're in the All Blacks 22. They knock the ball on in a flash. The All Blacks are down on England's five metre line. England down to 14 men. They have to see out that period of pressure. and then this strength in the last quarter, which was the failing of this team a year ago, has become their super strength. And it wasn't so much the bench this time, but it was a collective.

8:57They won going away from the All Blacks. And so for me, the strength was they answered questions in the game in periods where I think they have failed in the past. They had all the answers. Can I give my appreciation for George Ford? I love the fact that he's got one of those feathers in his cap today he's had a game where he was chosen at 10 dominated the All Blacks changed the plan he kicked those drop goals he was sensational the 50-22 he hit was a game-changing moment as well and like over all of these years there's been so much well George Ford don't know even some of the New Zealand journalists were going but George Ford at 10 that's a bit negative isn't it what about Finn Smith and then you go look at that that's George Ford and he's only 31 32 he's still here and he's putting his hand up going look at me everyone like I love that and it's maybe similar to Finn Russell at the Lions tour where you'll look back in on his career and go was Finn Russell one of the greats and you go well look he's 10 with a winning Lions series and again now you can go George Ford he's been number 10 when England have beaten the All Blacks twice and there's not a lot of people who can say that Can I pick out three things?

10:12So the drop goals, obviously, bringing England back in the game. That 50-22, I think the 50-22s, in all the tinkering that we have in the modern game with the laws, is the best addition that has been made to Rugby Union. And when you've got a player as smart as George Ford is, who can identify that you in turn of a ball on the right-hand side, it means there's green grass to exploit on the left. And he found the 50-22 that led to Fraser Dingwall's try. and then if you rewind 12 months where England had two two goes at beating the All Blacks and missed them both the second of those was a drop goal that they that the forward missed but because the setup was wrong now they got the setup perfectly right in the first half but the other the previous attempt 12 months ago was a penalty attempt which hit the right the right um was a penalty attempt hit the right post he had a shot this evening from pretty much the same spot to put England to wrap up the game to put England two scores clear and he drilled it straight down the middle and I just thought that's like those three moments he did way more than that but there are three moments there that just summed up his control of the game and can I give another appreciation so the England scrum has come on massively hasn't it I was going to say one of the

11:23Alfie: big points I thought today was in particular Finn Baxter and Joe Hayes and how good they were massive wasn't they so Hayes we were noticing quite a bit in the defensive line and Baxter's a good hitter as well in that defensive line but then Hayes particularly monstered monstered Ethan DeGroote once in the first half and you just go whoa okay and then when he went off and the bomb squad guys came on the pom squad I I couldn't I don't think I've loved an England scrum more than that I mean look people of an older vintage or whatever will say like oh Sheridan Matt Dunning whatever and it wasn't maybe as like brutal as that but the scrum that Ellis Genge and co won against the head was sensational and they all knew it and everyone gets a bit sort of pious and criticize people like ben earl for celebrating knock-ons and stuff like that but that was proper that was kind of like big statement massive scrum you had pollock jumping and having a hug with maritoji ellis genge was walking off like conor mcgregor it was epic i love that and actually really important as well because england's line out today was actually not great yeah it wasn't great but i you know i have no issue with those celebrations it's a physical emotional game yeah those eight men are trying to beat up the eight men opposite of them they're trying to work the angles and demolish them physically and they and they do it against the head at that point in the game yeah it's it's it's about channeling emotion that's why ben old has always done it it's it's not a goading thing it's not an arrogant thing it's about channeling energy and you know it's a spectacle how many times do we hear people complaining about scrums like it's awful but when you see moments like that and you go for the team that 82 ,000 people are supporting that's spectacle scrum can be spectacle it can be drama it can be energy it can be compelling it was a mega moment in a mega game and I thought another thing I think we said through the week was that there are people in this team who have beaten the All Blacks and have had big days and great days but there are lots of people who haven't and would have to have one of their great days and a lot of them did Joe Hayes being one of them I thought Fraser Dingwall who we were a little bit critical of last week excellent did exactly what he needed to do the the sort of play design with Lee Blackett it seems for so that 50-22 we just talked about and then Dingwall looks really simple but just goes straight through a hole that was so clever because they had been playing the centres the normal way around and then for that one they flipped them and then it was Dingwall who was in the gap rather than lawrence they're honeypotting on lawrence ding will go through and you think he's one of these sort of unheralded characters you called him the kind of glue player when you interviewed him before the tournament and talked about i can take credit for that no no no but like it's that's who you need all those characters to come to the party in days like this as well as the george ford and who's doing the kind of like mega stuff and ollie lawrence himself yeah he was brilliant as well had a game that everyone has known is in his locker i think he's played a lot of times for england in an imbalanced midfield that hasn't ever quite worked and england persisted with certain combinations for a long time and they never quite worked the way that england are balanced with ford dingwall lawrence it just works you know and and you saw him early on like a big arcing run down the outside centre channel.

14:45He was making outside breaks. He was bullocking through defenders for tries. He was showing his footballing skills. He was demonstrating the all-round game that we know Olly Lawrence has that I don't think he's brought out of himself or England haven't brought out of him probably more to the point until today. And I thought he was outstanding. Hell of a good finish for his try. Lots of, that was all of that encapsulated. The kind of power footwork, the sort of intelligent skill to get into the right position to finish it. He had a great day. There's lots of background stories. The George Ford one from 12 months ago, Fraser Dingwall, who had to fight and fight and fight to win one cap and then fight again.

15:25He had to wait another year for cap three and four. He's now beating the All Blacks. And Ollie Lawrence on this field in March, ruptures Achilles, missed the Lions tour. He wasn't even supposed to be playing in these games and now he's delivered a star turn against the All Blacks and credit to him for that.

15:41Alfie: Yeah, it also, and I know, well, we've kind of said this already, but in terms of this England team learning, I mentioned the missed opportunities at the start, going 12-0 down, but Freddie Stewart going off for an HIA, Marcus Smith having to come on at fullback, it almost felt like nothing fazed them. Well, I feel for Freddie Stewart here because he went off and England looked a better team. And he went off for an HRA, couldn't come back on. And he'd have watched from the bench as England, they had to, they kicked fewer contestables because they were missing one of their two premium aerial experts.

16:20And they played a bit more on the floor. And I thought Marcus had a really good year.

16:23Alfie: So New Zealand didn't test him at all. Well, New Zealand were a funny one because I thought in that first 20, like we mentioned the two tries they scored, I thought Tom Roebuck was caught on a couple of occasions and it looked like New Zealand really had an ability to stretch England, to exploit them out wide. And then I don't know whether it was England just got better defensively or if New Zealand just stopped doing it. They fell out of their shape easily, didn't they? I think England knocked them out of their shape. I think England's defensive pressure was outstanding. I mean, yes, they got stretched for that first try.

16:52Will Jordan sort of ghosted past Manny Faye Waboso, and then they score. All Blacks can do that. England looked to me like they'd got that. It was a first phase attack. They scored second phase, I think. But England shouldn't be being broken on the edge like that first phase. They got something wrong. But in general, how many times did the All Blacks get the ball and end up having to kick it because England have forced them backwards? And I thought you saw the best of that blitz defence that was in place a year ago, but allied with real intelligence. They just suffocated them. The links in the chain didn't break, really.

17:31There was a lot of... I mean, it looks nice because they wear white shirts, and so sometimes when they're coming up in a line like that, it's so obviously well-linked. And when it's not, it looks all sort of gappy teeth, doesn't it? Yeah. The organisation was there. The connections were there. I think England knocked the All Blacks out of their stride today.

17:52Alfie: Is there a point to be made here as well, which maybe seems too obvious, but to me it feels like England have made Twickenham a really horrible place to come again. And I remember in the, I think it was the Netflix documentary of Gregor Townsend and Scotland coming here and Scotland kind of banishing that hoodoo of struggling at Twickenham and Gregor Townsend on that saying, I used to hate coming here. I used to hate playing here. And I feel like this year, as long as England beat Argentina next week, their only defeat is going to be that game against Ireland. They're going to be unbeaten at home.

18:23Alfie: Which was a way. That's what I'm saying. So that was a way. They're unbeaten at home in 2025 if they beat Argentina next week. That, again, it's a small thing, but I think feels important for this team. Yeah, and look, Twickenham's a place the All Blacks love playing at. They always win here. They've won the World Cup here. They've had some good memories here. And recent ones. Regular ones. so yeah to to do that and banish that as well and make it a harder place for these teams to come and play at is is definitely part of it but i think one of the other points i'd like to make here is that we do that this is our job sometimes as journalists to be like right well what does that mean for next what's the next thing for this what's the growth here what's the kind of what about the six nations what about the world cup what about and i quite want to stop doing that with this pod and our pieces in just today and tomorrow because it's like england have just beaten the all blacks just marinating that for a bit and people get a bit too obsessed with beating the all blacks i think and it can drag away from what else they're doing in the game i would think and i think let's until ireland beat them in 2016 they had it scotland have definitely got it wales have definitely got it they just have this kind of wow we're playing the all blacks the mystique the amazing oh my god how good would it be to beat the all blacks and it drags away from what they do sometimes but when you do it and when you're england it's the ninth ever time in 120 years just celebrate it let it drift over you go out into the night and party and have a fun time with it because you shouldn't just look at it as like oh what does this mean for the future just enjoy it now and i think that's what they're going to do tonight it sounds yeah i feel like look steve borthwick as a head coach has just guided england to a win against new zealand so you can operate in whatever way you want in terms of in the press but I've kind of felt like saying to him in the presser of Steve you are allowed to enjoy this and just say this is mega this is a huge he just didn't want to go anywhere near that this was a statement win or as this was particularly special or important it was the kind of all wins are special I'm like I'm sorry not all wins are as important as this one and and it's no by no there's no comparison with any other victory that he's had in his tenure as england head coach and i would i would actually say as well there is no other win that he's had as a player that's come close to that either in 57 caps for england and people might go through all of them and say oh what about that one but i would say that to beating the all blacks at home by 14 points is massive and he must know that and like he's nervous about a headline and he's thinking oh god what are they going to put on the front of the sunday time tomorrow whatever but yeah you wish sometimes they'd just go awesome how good was that and it reminds me actually i remember being in the aviva stadium in 2018 when ireland beat the all blacks for the first time at home jacob stockdale's try and it was a late friday night game and so everyone wanted a quick like joe schmidt how good was that kind of reaction and he went oh yeah it's a pretty nebulous thing beating the all blacks we've got usa next week and you're like no no that is the wrong answer joe no just go this is amazing how good second time ever thank you good night steve's thing is the joy is for the players and the fans and not for him he just he can't it's just not how he is it's not his personality i you know he doesn't seem to gain like outwardly He gained joy.

21:47He must love what he does, but that's just not who he is. He wants to, which isn't great when you ask him questions about a statement victory, probably the biggest rugby occasion he's ever been part of in terms of victory. And yeah, he's not the man to turn to for those answers. But, you know, this place was rocking and this team have done something mega. And I realised that full time, and I apologise if this comes across the wrong way, but England have beaten the All Blacks nine times. I've seen five of them. Oh! Which is, I couldn't actually believe it when I worked it out. So what's that, 93?

22:23I was here as a kid in 93 with a mate of mine when England beat them in 93 and then 0-3 in Wellington. You were there as well? I was in Wellington in 0-3. Lovely. And then 2012, 2019 and today. Lovely. I must caveat what I said about Borthwick because I know that he, I am aware before you write in that he was the assistant coach in 2019. But I'm saying as a head coach and as a player, this has got to be his greatest victory, right? And he's had some horrible ones. He's had 53-10 here, let's not forget, against France. So yeah, just enjoy it, celebrate it. He was also an assistant coach when Japan beat South Africa.

22:55Yeah, I mean, he's had some good ones as an assistant. He's had a few big days, to be fair to him.

22:59Alfie: But as a head coach. None where it's been his show. Was he not involved as a player around some of those great wins around 0-3? I mean, he was left on the bench for the 0-3 game. He was an unused replacement in Wellington. When England's pack were down to six men because they had... 22-man game? Yeah, they had Neil Back and Lauren Zalio in the sin bin, and they were scrummaging on their own line, held out the All Blacks, and bought it was an unused replacement.

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24:08Should we do a little bit about New Zealand? Because there will be some Kiwi listeners or non-English listeners to this. where do we think they're at so i'll i'll let you into uh i won't say it was because it's unfair but i was having a chat with someone senior in new zealand on friday and they were just talking quite casually and and not in terms of any sort of doomsday scenarios or anything like that really but they were just going like oh yeah well if you if we lose this one razors going to be under real pressure and you're like that's very interesting and looked under pressure after the game chatting to some of the kiwi journalists who know the situation better than we do he's got a four-year contract he's almost certainly going to the world cup unless something really blows up but you don't want to be losing seven games as an old black head coach which it now is which is not very many but in the comparison of henry hansen foster even it's too many and it's also the manner they're losing these games they were beaten heavily there and they were being heavily by the box yeah and in a sort of similar-ish game you know they were leading the box at half time i think it was 12 10 in wellington and conceded well they now never win weirdly 30 odd points in a row for a record defeat and here they're 12-0 up and can see 25 points to be out of the game effectively.

25:16And that's the concern, I think, for the All Blacks and for Scott Robertson. It's not just that they're losing, but the manner that they're losing. They lost in Argentina. I don't know. Something's not right. I think they've got some really promising young players coming through. Leicester Fanganuku is a class player. Caleb Clarke would have made a big difference if he was fit today. I mean, Jordi Barrett's not here. Jordi Barrett's not here. Tyrell Lomax isn't here. Obviously amazing, Georgie Barrett. Fabian Holler dropped out before the game. You know, but the All Blacks usually can cope with that.

25:48I mean, England have the same number of first, like, front-line players not available today. If you think, like, a Furbank and a Freeman and an Ollie Chesson and a George Martin. Like, everyone has a collection of sort of four or five players not available usually at any one time. But, you know, maybe he's growing something, but it's going to take some patience because they, you know, they had the game in the clutch of their hands today and couldn't nail it.

26:10Alfie: I feel like the last couple of weeks with New Zealand has told us everything about where they are really. They have moments. They still have some excellent players. I think their skill level overall is still really high, but they are far more frail. And it maybe comes back to that thing of simply the All Blacks have lost their aura. They are still on their day a really good rugby team, but they just don't have that killer instinct or that feel around them that teams feel that they can't beat them. They definitely, that's definitely the case. I mean, however you define aura, and I had a go in the paper in the week.

26:45But the Springboks have it. Basically, the question is, how on earth do we beat this team? That's the question that everyone asks if you play in the Springboks. It's the question you used to ask about New Zealand in that period of dominance, certainly through to 2015. If you ask a similar question in reverse, England were a year ago were a team who the opposition knew would fade at the end they knew that if if they're in the game after an hour England don't have the players or the fitness to to see this through and that that's a reputation that precedes that precedes you negatively now England big for England today because they've turned that around but that reputation they have of being a team that who can fall away quickly in games is is growing so it's you know their Their reputation is going the opposite direction to where it used to be.

27:34And I think where you build context on context and examples and the evidence builds up in front of you, as we were here with England last year, where we were going all these tight defeats, width of a post, bounce of a ball stuff, that means you're not good enough. That's not just, oh, unlucky you, sport. And now I think if we were doing this pod in New Zealand, we'd be going, blown a 17-point lead at Murrayfield. And yeah, OK, they won that game, but blimey. then they go and blow a 12 point lead here they got annihilated by the spring box was it 43 10 and like they beat them at Eden Park fine but you just go there are a series of alarming developments happening and they're stacking up now and look they've got Wales next week and the usual form with New Zealand would be they lose a game and then they go and take people's heads off for next week like almost literally do you remember the one after Chicago 2016 was like oh my lord these springboks are out to kill blokes and i fear for wales in that game and i would have done anyway like they've snuck one against japan man at least they won but you sort of go are new zealand going to whimper out of this grand slam tour i mean they're not going to lose that'd be ridiculous really imagine that if steve tandy goes oh i haven't beat them since 1953 what just you just scrape to win against japan but a bit like macaw said on our pod on about 2012 is that you You don't want to be sitting at home in Christchurch for a whole summer going, sitting with that as an all-black all year until you get a chance in Super Rugby and until you get a chance in next July, whatever.

29:10Flip it. England play Argentina here on Sunday. Massive game, that. If they can win that, they have a Christmas of real opportunity and optimism heading into a Six Nations. It's just the opposite situation.

29:24Alfie: Let's finish on that. And Will, I know you said let's just enjoy now. but I do think it's worth mentioning Argentina here and we have all spoken to George Ford in the mix zone and one of the interesting things he said to me was there is a danger next week because we know how good Argentina are but England have just had this amazing emotional high that is a tough game against Argentina to round out your year It is tough, Argentina are really good and we can get on to them I think what really helps England is it's a Sunday game they've got an extra day to just bask in what they've achieved and enjoy what they've achieved and then park it.

29:58And I think that actually will help them because it's really hard to roll from a seismic win, seismic occasion, to then go and play another team next weekend. That's hard, emotionally. I think the schedule really helps them. They've got some downtime to just soak it in, recognise what they've done, and then reset the goals for Sunday. If I were Borthwick, leave them. Don't contact anyone until Wednesday. let them go out drinking tonight pile up the barocas and the fry up on on Sunday morning maybe even Monday morning but what I'd do is I'd frame next week as the World Cup final and I'd say you've just won the World Cup semi-final you've had a huge peak of performance like 2019 and now you have to do it again because that's what will have to happen in 27 for Australia because that's what the best teams do and you must back that up and if we lose that it wasn't worth beating the All Blacks but don't do that now let them enjoy it but almost and look we hate people talking about World Cups two years in advance because you get a day like today and you just go what does that matter about two years time just do it now do it today don't think about Six Nations World Cup anything but that would be a good way of framing it for the players I think

31:06Alfie: yeah absolutely well more on that will come your way on Monday's pod plus we'll look back on all the rest of the results this weekend final question of the pod to you Alex the five games you have seen England beat New Zealand which of your children do you prefer? no not quite like that Where does this one rank? Oosh. Well, the World Cup's second final is... Yeah, of course. It was the best. Wellington... There's an argument for Wellington, isn't there, being higher? It wasn't as emphatic... It was emphatic in a different way. It was absolutely chucking it down with rain. England master the conditions.

31:45I'd probably go... And I was much more appreciative of what I was seeing in Yokohama as well, I think. So I'll say Yokama won, Wellington 2. I think this has the potential to be 3, but I think we would need to see where it fits, because that 2012 game... That was the great All Blacks team as well. ...was extraordinary, but it didn't actually lead to anything. But as a one-off day in a game, I would say that's probably still above here, because of the All Black 15-23 they put out. It came... And Manu just running over them. The reason I really, really enjoyed today was because it just felt like it had been so long in the making.

32:24Whereas that win in 2012 was like a lightning bolt. And England were good in Six Nations, always finishing second, but that was a lightning bolt moment. Whereas this felt like so many players had put in so much to earn this that I really enjoyed watching that come to fruition. We followed this journey up to this point so closely. and seen so many frustrated players and frustrating games that for it to come to fruition was pretty special. So, yeah, I think this could be third. So it's tough between this and 2012. And then 93, I don't really remember much about it. Drunk too much, Eddie. I definitely wasn't old enough for that.

33:10Vimto. But I remember I was sitting in the south stand, John Teemu was tackled to touch by Victor Bogu, and England kicked their way to 15-9 win which was rare obviously but it doesn't quite compare with these games I don't think.

33:24Alfie: So England's ninth ever victory over the All Blacks. If you want to send us an email if you want to reflect on the game that we were all lucky to be here to watch tonight then send us one to theruckatthetimes.co.uk Alex we'll be back on Monday in studio See you Monday. And you'll be back next week presumably. Yeah I'll be back. Don't worry about me. I'll find a way of getting back on a microphone. So loads more coming your way from the ruck during the week. And yeah, appreciate you listening. We'll be with you next time. While every other channel is fighting for your customer's attention, podcasts are where they've already given it.

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