England dismantle dismal Wallabies

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1:08That's goo.gle slash workspace with Gemini. Hello, hello. Welcome along, everyone. This is The Ruck, the rugby podcast from The Times and Sunday Times. Alfie here along with Will and Charlie standing in an empty Allianz Stadium, Twickenham where England got their November up and running England 45 Australia 22 we'll try and get into all of it but Will Charlie was that about as perfect to start to November as Steve Borthwick and England could have hoped for yeah I kind of think so um it's a funny one because yeah they scored seven tries they won the game they played well but also I think perfect in the sense that it's the first game and there's a lot that they can be better at which is not doing the thing that they hate us doing which is going well the opposition weren't very good so that doesn't count kind of thing I think that's valid and I think they're now going to progress from this in a good place because they have started with a very good win they've got a record number of points they've scored against Australia they've scored seven tries the Pollock thing worked on the wing we'll get onto a couple of annoying little injuries but there is plenty to work on Charlie in that because there were bits that didn't quite stick but plenty that did so therefore happy days for

2:22Charlie: them yeah I think they I think they married what they do really well and what they tend to do really well under Borthwick which is make stifle opponents and make them look like they're playing left-handed to use that to use that phrase Australia were really kind of didn't fire a shot for a long for long periods of that but as I say England married that with some really clinical stuff in attack they played space really nicely they did what they promised they were going Nduin got their most dangerous players on the ball a lot. And a lot of that was Manu Feboboso causing absolute havoc. So I think, and then if I think, just to add on to that, if you are going to be critical, the cliche is you want to be winning well with things to work on.

3:02Charlie: That just stopped short for me of being a real statement performance because I think they did enough well to score 60, even 70 points here. That's how well a lot of the stuff went. that they've fallen short of that can be encouraging for them and can give them a spur to go into the rest of the autumn. We were saying that, weren't we, Charlie, before we started recording, that actually if you're being hypercritical of that game, England could have scored 60 there and we'll get on to the Wallabies. You're right, Will, poor performance. And if we were an Aussie journos podcast, then we'd probably be starting this thinking, geez, what on earth do we say there?

3:37And speaking to colleagues that have made the trip over from Australia in the press conference room, they were there. Like, what on earth was that? So we'll get on to the Wallabies and their obviously underwhelming performance. But as we've said, from an English point of view, it's job done. It's a win to start November. And we know they don't always get their first win of a campaign, which sets them on the back foot. Plus the fact that they didn't have much preparation time, which they don't want to use as an excuse. Do they not? But it is a factor, isn't it? They've mentioned it nine times this week.

4:05Charlie: To me, they spoke about that too much. And actually, so do you know what's been rattling around in my head quite a lot? After the first round of the Champions Cup, we did a little run round of journalists from other countries and asked them, what do you think of the Prem? And by extension, what do you think of English rugby? And our colleague, Rhoda O 'Connor from the Irish Independent said, English rugby is really good when it puffs its chest out. And I've been living rent free in my head because, and I thought that when Pollock went over for a second, I thought this is the moment, this is where they really put the foot on the throat.

4:37Charlie: They didn't quite do that. But I mean that. I think they can really do well to adopt that mindset, if not publicly, certainly privately, for the rest of this World Cup cycle. When they've got four front-line props fit, when they've got all their locks fit, they're going to have set-piece pressure as a template to fall back on throughout the 80 minutes. If they can marry that, if they can continue to marry that with an attack that plays to space and puts their most dangerous players on the ball, that is going to be tough for teams to live with and I really think that has to be the baseline and a lot of that comes back to this mindset of not being apologetic so I'd really like them to speak less about the time they haven't had together yeah it does get boring that excuse and I think it is an excuse because it is something that they just constantly constantly message to us and you keep thinking you should bloody talk to Bill Sweeney and the PGP lads about that it's nothing to do with us and now it's six-day turnaround six-day turnaround we've got to work with a six-day turnaround that we've got there's a six-day turnaround you're like okay we get it we get it but putting all of that to us to one side as Charlie has said and as you've said Alfie there's a lot to be happy about if you're Steve Borthwick there was a lot of pressure like I think all of us were walking up the road as were all the fans here going really don't know what's going to happen today could be literally anything England told us on Friday they were super angry they were going to show how much they loved Steve Borthwick with that performance and there were elements of it where you thought you're not you're not going to bottle this are you come on like when Jorgensen went in for that intercept at half time we were all looking at each other going like surely not surely surely not when they'd had 11 entries into the Aussie 22 and scored two or three tries they'd had 85 percent territory in around the first quarter of the game Aussie had had two entries one was the intercept on half time one was basically kicking the goal for the penalty well there was a Ben Currie turnover wasn't there that was it Australia offered nothing and they were nine points down at half time and you thought oh man and we were looking at each other Charlie going a good team here Ireland, South Africa New Zealand and France put 60 on Australia because they're rubbish today and England would have got there if they'd scored a couple of those ones they should have done early on like they had the silly forward pass Ben Curry to Ollie Chesson that chalked off the Fabio Boso try that's a great start to the game it was yeah gave away a free kick at their own putting inside the opposition 22 which Maratoji had forced with a with a charge down Ben Curry went off the base of a maul and passed to Fabio Boso who dropped it yeah um those are the what they really need to work hard to eradicate in their game over the net over the rest of this World Cup cycle as I say in the lead up to that tournament is this just lingering sense of fragility that as much as they do well, sides can stay in touch with them without doing very much and I think that really has to be the goal because as I say they did loads well today they really did and it can be, it really can be a platform for them, a launch pad for them if they play the next few weeks right The other thing I think, and it's interesting isn't it because we've had a whole year basically of Bortha's on the back foot haven't we and even when they've won games it's been like yeah but it's only Fiji lads and that sort of reaction hasn't it from fans and everyone else but today they've put away Australia they've scored a record amount of points against them and he was clearly fizzing but it was coming in straight after the game which is he's usually not very good at with like constructive critical points after the match we've just been in a very impressive post-match press conference I would from him and Mario Toji.

8:20Charlie: I agree, yeah. And one of the things that he talked about was that he felt there was a bit of an intensity drop-off in that kind of third to fourth quarter bit, which is absolutely bang on. Like, the energy wasn't that high in this place anyway. It's a Sunday. Maybe people didn't know what to expect, but it did drop a bit, didn't it? And Australia, who had fired no shots for the whole game, kind of came back with two quite annoying tries, if you're the England defence, going, we've defended really well today, and they've come away with 20-odd points. That's frustrating because that should have been like a 45-7 gone game, shouldn't it?

8:54Well, look at the tries that England conceded. One is an intercept on halfway on half-time and one of the other ones is Marrow, who played really well, by the way, but Marrow just dropping the ball five metres from their own line. Two of the three Wallabies' scores are just total freebies, aren't they?

9:09Charlie: It was in the last 10 minutes that I thought the Wallabies got any shape to their attack with Dalgunu sort of roaming around and Lennar Kittau finally sort of getting to the game line and playing those no-look passes that we've seen were so familiar from his time at Exeter Chiefs. I thought they did, as I say, did fantastically. Harry Wilson said something really interesting in the post-match as well, where he said that just in our own, this is Australia, the Australia's captain, said in our own 22, we just felt like they were coming so hard at our breakdown, making our exits just really messy and that allowed them to pile territorial pressure on it.

9:40Charlie: That to me is like England 101. on that's exactly how Borthwick loves his pack to operate and yeah it's just marrying it's being consistent with that and marrying that with a real clinical edge massive step forward today in that regard and I think what we're trying to say here is that we're now in a good place with England after that nitpicking at little things that they could have done better when they've done a lot well so it's not us going oh they only won 45 22 it's like they played well they won well done them but here's three more things they could be better at for when their All Blacks are here because look, the best thing for Borthwick now this week is twofold I think, is that it's a calm week there's no questions about his future there's no...

10:22Charlie: Be an Eddie Curveball won't there? Possibly yeah, but it'll probably be fun rather than mental and well we don't know do we? Who knows? But also he can now change the team a bit from a position of strength and we've seen in other games of this ilk in years gone by where I remember one against Japan and maybe was it two years ago three years ago where Tom Curry was had a few concussions and it was one of those we thought there's what are you doing rushing him back for this game it's Japan lads but they had had a poor autumn I think must have been 24 and he played and it was like do you really need to rush Tom Curry back for this match whereas now he's already talking about well, that was Ben Curry's first big game back for a long time.

11:04Maybe he needs a rest. Finn Baxter, Will Stewart, they're only just back. Maybe they need a rest. And we can get onto it, but they've got a couple of injuries. But I think they've now got the position already. Like one game changes a lot, doesn't it? But they can already go, OK, what can we learn in the Japan week that helps us for the World Cup and helps us for the All Blacks? Because that's the game now of this autumn for them, isn't it? Yeah, I mean, it's amazing. You're right, it's amazing how quickly things change in international rugby, which I guess because we don't get that many games, but it feels like for Japan, he's selecting from a position of strength again.

11:37We'll get onto that and maybe some of the selections and some of the injuries in just a moment. Really quickly, because Charlie, you mentioned we've just come out of a quite impressive press conference from an England perspective. Do you want to explain what you mean there? Because people might be listening and wondering, well, how so?

11:51Charlie: Yeah, I just thought it was quite restrained as Steve Borthwick always is. And he was able to sort of get it a little bit into the nuances tactically of what went well for England, their ruck speed, their cohesion and attack being quite impressive with the caveat that they hadn't had that much time together. And then there was also, he was asked to respond to Owen's piece earlier this week. He gave that a bit of a kind of forward defensive, but then Maratoji stepped in and said, look, as far as rugby coaching goes, Steve is superb. And what was quite pertinent was he gave the example of other players to have worked with Borthwick on Lions tours.

12:28Charlie: for example he used was Ireland internationals who kind of rave about the technical detail that Borthwick can give them and I just thought and clearly it helps when they've just won and and and won convincingly um but it made you sort of compare that with some quite stilted um presses that have happened in the past and I just thought I just thought he was a bit freed up and I just thought it was more impressive for that. He cracked two jokes. Did a Henry Pollock banter, which was nice. Henry Pollock finds playing on the wing easy, and we're going to have to endure that, which is great. And then there was another one, sorry, where he was about to say the word environment, and then went, probably shouldn't use that word.

13:13And you're like, oh, here he is. And there's a third, if we want to throw in, of saying loads of previous England coaches got in touch this week and said, been there, done that, got the T-shirt. Yeah, yeah. The thing on Otoji, that was a good sort of impassioned speech, but the one thing I'd say there is that he's aiming for the wrong criticism there, because throughout Slotty's piece, he made it very clear that the criticism is not that Borthwick's a bad coach. And Marrow was basically saying, you talk to anyone on that 17 lines and they'll say how amazing he was for them. And Sam Warburton, one of our columnists, would absolutely echo that and said, some of the best line-out sessions he'd ever had have been from Borthwick.

13:49That was never the criticism. The criticism was about empathy and empowerment of players, but we've done that but yeah you've done it as well Alfie like you often have to ask one of the first few questions in these press conferences and sometimes it's like you've just beaten the All Blacks and it feels like someone's dropped a dead cat on the table and nothing's happened

14:05Charlie: Is this a chest out thing again? Yeah Is this a chest out like be excited about pumping Australia at home and starting your November on the front foot and now being able to go to Japan where you can change the team up a bit and then having this really kind of cool game against the All Blacks to come and then you know what if you win that you're in a final at Twickenham how exciting maybe try and avoid them maybe that's the distinction we've got to be making between what is publicly uttered by these guys and what they're saying behind closed doors because I'm not having that they kept talking about the little time they had together behind closed doors because that would have just been defeatist and actually I don't think they would have been able to play like they did today as I say moving the ball from there was the first scrum they had I think it was a scrum when Henry Pollock came in on the wing and moved the ball to him, gave him a run against Jorgensen.

14:54Charlie: And Jorgensen was sort of visibly like, what the hell's going on here? I've got a back row running at me. And that was, it was bold, you know. It looked, a lot of it looked very saint-sy, next hole attack. A lot of it was really kind of intrepid and, yeah, impressive. Can I just, you just triggered something in my head there. How good to see Furbank, finally. The moment, we all mentioned it, The moment it's the Jack Van Portfliet try, where he goes through, holds the ball long enough to take the gap himself, and then the only way he can get the timing of his... Not only the timing of his pass to Slade, I think, but the way he flicks it is the only way that...

15:34Was it Freeman on the right wing who then passed it back inside?

15:37Charlie: Yeah, but that link-up is just inch-perfect, and that is how they open up Australia. Yeah, that's just the subtleties of him at full-back. that's why they have wanted so desperately to give him a sequence of test matches. Dominic O 'Connell and Hannah Privet here from The Business Podcast. Join us for a special episode with President of the British Chambers of Commerce and former Chief Economist at the Bank of England, Andy Haldane, and PwC's UK tax leader, Claire Blackburn, as we look ahead to John Healy's first budget. We'll discuss the challenge he faces trying to get the economy growing, with an uncertain geopolitical backdrop and a party that's not keen on making cuts to public spending.

16:20We'll also ask what businesses are looking for, whether the government will be in a position to deliver, or if more tax squeezes are on the way. Listen to the business wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of The Best One Yet. Behind every episode, there's research, email, spreadsheets, and our shared Google Doc, the headline hammer. With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs, and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about.

16:55Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at goo.gle slash workspace with Gemini. That's goo.gle slash workspace with Gemini. This episode is sponsored by ZocDoc. Have you been putting off a doctor's appointment or need a dentist? and you don't know where to start, we've definitely been there and that's why we use ZocDoc. Actually, over the holidays, Michael had a dental emergency and seemingly every office was closed, but we hopped onto ZocDoc, found an in-network dentist, had great reviews, saw real-time appointments available, which was key. It was on New Year's Day and booked an appointment in just minutes.

17:34It took so much of the stress out of the already stressful situation. ZocDoc makes it easy to search and compare over 250 ,000 local in-network providers across more than 200 specialties. So you can find the right doctor or dentist and book instantly. Taking care of your health just got easier. Download the ZocDoc app today and book that appointment on your to-do list. That's Z-O-C-D-O-C. ZocDoc. I thought looking at it generally whilst it was certainly by no means a fully polished England performance and they left opportunities out there I thought it was probably quite close to the type of attacking team that they want to be in that what they scored a couple of more tries with Jamie George and Joe Hayes unbelievably good There was a moment where I was like because Jamie George gave it the full beans after he'd scored his and I was like if this is the game to show how much you love Steve Borthwick don't make it seven more tries like I know he would really like that but come on but they had the they didn't it was just funny because I was like oh man they're literally just going to get Jamie George a double hat trick yeah well they had the Moultries they had that unbelievable strike move as well for the second Pollock score the Van Portfliet one as you guys have just mentioned so I thought the different ways in England attacked albeit it wasn't a perfect attacking performance was good should we get on to some of the injuries because that is the downside here Manny Feu can we start with Faye Roboso because it's like it just breaks me mate It's so sad.

19:03It's unreal, isn't it? In that pretty much every time you see him in an England shirt, you're like, this guy is unbelievably good. He changes what England can do and comes off his wing, gets over the gain line through midfield, does so much good stuff. And through no fault of his own, man, he struggles to save fit. It is savage, isn't it? And it's actually like we probably can be seen from the outside as being quite cynical. But I honestly just love watching him play rugby because he's the guy with the big smile on his face. He's really lovely to speak to after games as well. You sort of wish the best for him.

19:40And he runs like a rubber man. He can't get tackled. You can't get him down. And bless him. And then he's almost too good for the game. And then he gets one of these annoying hip drop tackles. And possibly because he's been out and missing games, he tries to struggle on. It was so obvious that he couldn't run on his leg. He's going to go for a scan now. He definitely won't play against Japan. And it'll be a struggle for All Blacks, I think, probably. He was in a boot, wasn't he, at the end of the game? And they sort of add a boot to anyone these days. But it's just brutal, that. Like, we've seen Cunningham South get a hip drop one, and he's out for a few months.

20:17Like, the same with Leroy Carter, the All Black. Again, we mentioned it when this thing came in. We felt like I'd never seen one of these tackles, and now they're everywhere. But just brutal for Manny, because he honestly just changes the game for England. But it is hilarious as well that he's England's best player for like 35 minutes, doesn't score a try because it got disallowed. And then Pollock goes, I'll play in the wing. Oh, here's two and a nutmeg. He's just like, mate, come on.

20:42Charlie: While he was, as I say, he was picking up so many carries in and around the ruck as well as off his wing. And the disallowed try is exactly what they want from him, isn't it? It's him steaming around onto the shoulder of the distributors that England have got in midfield. and it was Finn Smith in that instance after a really nice pullback from Seb Atkinson. It was Lee Blackett written all over it. But while he was making all those carries, I was thinking, this is a heavy workload for a guy that has just come back off a two-week layoff. It was like three touches in five minutes, wasn't it, straight off the bat?

21:14Charlie: It was relentless. But I was also thinking, if he does go off, he's almost like a unique athlete in England. and who are, because it works so well when you get a player who is that explosive but then also that industrious that they are getting so many touches. So who do England replace him with if they don't have to play a World Cup knockout, if they have to play a World Cup knockout game, sorry, without him, how do they play? They can't play the same way because he's unique in that. He's not quite at this level yet because he hasn't played enough but it is like when England didn't have Manu and it was like, oh, Daly and Slade midfield?

21:55Crikey, there's no carry there. You need to find it completely somewhere else. Whether that's Morel, although he already carries like 100 million times every game.

22:04Charlie: Probably the one other, the next most explosive athlete is Pollock. So that's maybe what they've been thinking about. I think he'll play seven next week though, not Banks. Yeah, but just a phenomenal player. What did you think of the decision on the hip drop tackle? I feel for Angus Bell in that he did his best to make a normal tackle, then was beaten and then just was sort of stragging. And then that was almost like an instinct thing that players have now got to scrub out. Yeah, I feel like it's maybe on me for not fully understanding the interpretation of hip drop. But I presumed it had to be where they also fall on the lower limbs.

22:46and he didn't really, did it, like, Faye Woboso's ankle kind of got caught underneath, but it wasn't one of those properly just all the way on the lower limbs and the ones that I was expecting to get penalised. So when it happened, I thought that seems to me to be really harsh. But, I mean, Les Kiss in the Aussie press conference was like, yeah, no complaints. So I think it's probably just the refs are going to be so hot on it and how they officiate it. There is an element of it, which I think Ben Earl mentioned in the week, who's done a dissertation on rugby's law changes, who said that refs, when new things come in, always want to get one.

23:17to almost go like oh noticed there we go are you watching joel jute i've got a hip drop here well done me and like a parking attendant yeah exactly yeah um i sort of thought sorry you've just distracted me because that's what ellis genge calls us oh really he says you're like a traffic wardens you sort of have to be there and do your job but you're quite annoying and i was like that's actually quite a funny mug off from him but anyway um but the i sort of thought on the balance of it It probably was a yellow, but we've seen so few of them. We haven't got like a big database of that's what's a red, that's what's a yellow at the moment.

23:52But I do feel sorry for these players because when someone's running away from you, someone as dynamic as Fai Woboso, and you're a prop maybe, it doesn't matter really, but how do you tackle them when they're running away from you if you can't use your weight to drag their legs down? Like where are you meant to aim on their body? Well, I guess you're having to try and use your weight to drag them down, but not... not like be on their side guess so you sort of have to be side on like if you're beaten you do you leave them because the Leroy Carter one was him scoring a try wasn't it and was it Valentini yeah took him out and you think well does he just not try and tackle him I don't know it's a really counterintuitive thing sometimes yeah well and even we didn't see it today but the the no knees on the ground like that's gonna be so difficult defending around your own line well and another thing Earl mentioned in the week was that as this is rugby you can be on your knee on the goal line because the laws are different on the goal line of course and he said well we don't want people to come in our 22 so what does that mean like can we not be on our knees on the 22 but we can't count on our goal line it's rugby's weird we know that okay uh let's put Seb Atkinson that was the other injury which I thought Steve Balthwick's response in the presser was really funny because he kind of said like he almost said I expect it's probably not too serious but it's too early for me to say yeah like he backed out he really really really loves getting the full medical report steve yeah that is one of his like he he has a few little things on his bingo card and that is one yeah but no that that's annoying too because i think i'm right in saying henry slay's 14th different center partner today and positives if we do positives for a second yeah is is that that backline really did have to jump around and be muddled up today and they came through pretty They didn't really face that much adversity because Australia were not very good.

25:36But the adversity they did get presented with, they did cope with, and actually thrived under because they put Pollock on the wing and he scored two tries and looked good. And they dealt with Marcus at 10, Finn Smith at 12. What I'm interested to see is what they do next week with the 12 because Atkinson, I think, is not going to be fit. Yeah, so on that in particular then, the 12, what do you think they do against Japan? So if it were me, and I'm never going to select an England team, I think Max Ajoma's got to play. And I know it was a different type of game, but on the England A game on Friday night at the rec, he was taking the mickey.

26:11He was a joke against the Argentinian 15. There's one thing that he did that we'll try and clip up on the Times tomorrow or Monday, where he gave a no-look pirouette offload pass that set up a try. And you just think, this guy's a joke. And he's had two caps, one in the USA, won here against Argentina where he was man of the match and then has never played again and it's always felt really weird that he's never really been fancy he just looks the most perfect classic modern day 12 a bit like Sione Tupolotto his distribution at the line is great he can carry if not now, when? I know Fraser Dingwall played pretty well in the All Blacks game particularly last year he would be another option but for me it has to be a Jomo

26:55Charlie: I think a Jomo, if you're going to use England A as a launch pad to, and use it as a kind of fillet for players and say, look, if you play well at that level, then you're going to get a shot at test level. Then it follows that Ojo Moe would now get a shot. Him and Northmore went really well together. The other side to that is Dingwall has that All Blacks performance in his back pocket. It was excellent in that game. He also brings that cohesion, another word that Steve Borthwick likes to use, with very saintcy. And I would say also that what Seb Atkinson did well in this game wasn't necessarily mega flash.

27:32Charlie: It was neat and tidy. It was tying things together with little pullback passes, little tip passes. Fraser Dingwall's excellent at that. And he's also a very smart defensive mind. But it is a really interesting either or for sure. But do you not think what you guys have both run through there leads me to think that they'll go with Dingwall? because we know how much Steve Borthwick loves players that have been in camp before. Like if a Jomo was really close to breaking into the starting team, he wouldn't be, I don't think, playing for England on Friday night. And the fact that Dingwall has been there before, has been there against the All Blacks, I think that's the direction they'll probably go.

28:06For right or wrong, I think it's quite obvious that Borthwick doesn't fancy a Jomo. Like I remember when we talked with Joe Hayes about my mad upgrade that I got on the flight home from Argentina, he was in one of the seats and I was a bit like, oh, Jomo's here, I forgot about him. and like Raffi Quirk and a few others who joined the squad because he came late, didn't he? And I just think, God, what a shame. He's not that old, Hageoma, so he's got plenty of time. But I think if Hageoma doesn't win 30-odd caps, you think, what a waste, because he's got something in there. And I know the Prem is nothing like Test Rugby, as we keep saying and being reminded of.

28:42But he's got so many talents there. You think it's got to work, surely.

28:47Charlie: Is he going to play against Japan and get man of the match again? Well, that's the problem, isn't it? So he's two out of two at Twickenham and then drop out of the side again for the All Blacks. That's the other problem with playing him. If he tears it up. The clamour. Yeah, exactly. Well, we'll wait and see then for later in the week of what Steve Borthwick does for that match against Japan. Shall we get on to the Wallabies? I mean, that was an awful performance. She's a stinker. I think if we were on the Rucco, the Aussie version. The Honey Badger's back on. Yeah, she'll bring him up. I mean gosh as you said they did a bit better in the sort of 50-65 minute mark but against the back line with Marcus Smith Finn Smith and Henry Pollock like one of the smallest back lines I think you could have put out that's what it took for them to sort of come alive also didn't like they were handed an absolute lifeline at half time as you mentioned with the inset and you thought okay straight out after half time this could be really interesting and England just go bang bang took the game away from them again like they offered so little I thought.

29:46Charlie: At half time you're honestly thinking right, Australia won't be that bad again. Australia will get a foothold in this and it's almost dangerous because they're at 19-10 without playing but actually it would have been so disappointing for them to just give up that try straight after half time. I went to see them on Friday for the team naming press conference and it was quite interesting. They didn't start Valentini which felt like a flagship selection and putting Jeremy Williams who's just an excellent player at six looked like they were really aiming to stifle England at the line out which they nearly did a little bit but they were just so so off it in other areas so off it at the contact area Fraser McWright might have got more reward another day but I think was absolutely man-marked by England's clearers and England were really the intensity of England's breakdown where I've just spoken to Jack Van Portflouy downstairs and said talk to me about sort of the subtleties around the ruck that allowed that attacking performance to flourish and he was just like we were just the forwards were just out to cause some damage at the attacking breakdown and they really they did that really well and yeah and just some of the some of the stuff then when australia were forcing it like passes to touch you know just just look really ugly i think also they may be caught between really going in on this contestable kicking game and doing what they're very much known for which is spreading the ball because they won they caught a little bit of pay in the contestable kicking game and then weren't really able to play off it because they didn't sort of they weren't sort of very clean was it no it wasn't they england did a job england absolutely did a job on them and maybe something maybe something that we don't stress enough is how when england play well they make the other side look horrible and they really did that today australia look horrible at times aussie i don't know i just never know what to think and they're a bit like argentina aren't they and the old france not the current france where you just go So hang on, you beat the box with four people on the field.

31:44Box second or 13. Box second or 13. But then in the last few weeks, they've gone 50 points to 19 New Zealand, 43-21 New Zealand, 45-22 England. That's utter dross, isn't it? Really. And we've said this a lot. We've followed them around the Lions. We've been on tours there. They've come here. I don't understand Joseph Sueli and what they're not doing with him. Like, he is one of the most insanely athletic specimens in the game, and they never get him the ball. And they did in his first ever game of senior rugby here, when they won out of nowhere. And since then, honestly, like, every time I see them play, I'm like, why are you not just bombing everything?

32:30He is a genius in the air. And using him roaming off his wing, I hardly noticed he was playing. I think they tried to do that a bit today in the kicking game. I actually thought Tommy Freeman did pretty well, even though it wasn't that clean. I thought Freeman did a pretty good job of just getting in his way enough or getting a few back for England. It was quite messy, wasn't it? And Les Kiss said, didn't he, that England were then better of when they did get an opportunity there of capitalising on it. I think Surly, I think his best position is probably the wing. Like, I don't think it worked at 13.

32:55He wasn't working at 13, no. He wasn't working at 13. Apart from maybe that MCG break, do you remember? In the Lions' second test, it was like, oh, finally, there's a bit of Surly. And then it's like, and never again. And then Tom Wright, I think, is too good a player that you want him as your 15. So I think wing is the right position for him. I mean, today it was just a team that weren't operating, weren't giving themselves any platform. But do you know the thing with Australia that frustrates me the most is I feel like we probably, in November, this is like the third year in a row where we've been looking at an England Wallabies game and thinking, so what are Australia?

33:24And at one point it was like, can they build for that Lions tour to be really, really competitive? And they turned up about halfway through it when the series was basically done. They were preparing for the box. Because they were preparing for the Rugby Championship, as they kept telling us. then you've got this World Cup in a year's time and you're like, home World Cup for Australia, so exciting and you're just looking at it and you're like it's very difficult to make a case other than the fact that they will probably end up on the better side of the draw for them massively making an impact of that and I think that's such a shame Yeah, and one thing you've always characterised really great wallaby teams with is attacking intelligence and going for space and one thing I thought was just so alarming today that they didn't do was, as we've said, Manny Fogosa was walking around with one leg for 15 minutes and they never challenged him.

34:07They never put a bomb on him. They never ran at him. Nothing. You're like, what? Come on.

34:12Charlie: Everyone can see this guy can't run. Did Henry Pollock have to catch a high ball in a whole half of rugby? I mean, talking about targeting players, no, I thought exactly the same. It was very disappointing. But yeah, just to stress, I do think they were stifled, strangled a lot. No, that's fair. That's fair. Right, let's wrap it up then, lads. I suppose Friday, the messages from England when we went up and spoke to them and we were podding at Penny Hill was that they were going to put in a statement performance. Did we get that? Did we get the statement performance to start England's November?

34:44I mean, yeah, I mean, they'll go home really happy and good on them. Like, fair enough. Like, they've been criticised. There's been some fair criticism in there, we would say, because we're the journalists and we back our journalism. And they've responded, they've played well, they've scored seven tries, they've put Australia away for the second year in a row in a better way than they did last year and now they can build towards that All Blacks game which I think as I said before is the one because we don't really know what they're going to get in the finals weekend but the All Blacks you'll get onto it on Monday's pod properly but that was impressive what they did in that second half but they keep losing two important players in every game and it might not be that they're both out for the England one but Jordy Barrett got a big bad head knock Will Jordan went off like two of the worst players to lose they're already without loads of others including Arde Svea and if you're England now you're going right, we've like rolled the clock back to 2025 when we had our POM squad, we had our props that we could rotate nicely, we've got all the locks we want, we've got Martin coming off the bench and no one even really noticing because it's like wow great we can really target that game now because surely the All Blacks will be blowing steam out of their arse by that game, don't you think greatest rivalry series What does that mean?

35:58They're pumped yeah yeah sorry that's probably a bad metaphor isn't it they will be i've never heard that one they were blowing out their ass yeah that's fair blowing steam out their ears if they're angry blowing out their ass if they're tired there we go okay all right fine fine i think that is time so it's time to wrap up the pod isn't it i think probably most likely um charlie did you want a final word on england or are we happy to leave it there no i think i think just internally they'll

36:22Charlie: get very yeah i think they'll be excited internally definitely and it's a nice fixture next with Japan, as Steve Borthwick sort of hinted, they'll come with some plans to test and tease England around the pitch, I'm sure. And Eddie Jones, as we hinted, is going to throw some grenades in the week, which is going to be ace. But he can rotate a little bit and just make sure that they're absolutely ready for what is a huge game against the All Blacks. And then, as I say, they've got to get excited about the prospect of a final at Twickenham. Because did you feel today that I felt like the crowd responded to them a bit?

36:57Charlie: Certainly in their moments where the intensity was high. And yeah, they get that for three more tests. How good. I thought it was a better Sunday atmosphere than you can have it. I thought it was decent. And I think it set up the November nicely. Slightly bad news for ticket sales for that Friday game. Because I think they secretly were hoping that England would make the Friday. Because England looked like they might get top two now. But they're probably going to finish one or two, aren't they? So there'll be Saturday or Sunday. And I should have fact-checked this already. but I saw it on social media which is never reliable but is a box New Zealand guaranteed to be one and two in the they're on 20 points each I think they are I think they're already guaranteed and like Aussie are next so yeah I think they may well be yeah and obviously they won't play each other and then sort of laymans will go what?

37:41so the two best teams are not playing the final which will be a bit weird then we'll have to do the long explainer as to why that's happening but yeah we'll get there in a few weeks that'll be the conversation in a couple of weeks time Will appreciate it Charlie see you in a few hours in a few hours yeah Charlie and I will be back tomorrow as we're recording this, which is Monday, which a lot of you will be listening to this pod on. So this is all getting a little bit weird here. And you'll be on YouTube. I can watch you from home. You can watch as well, yeah. So next pod coming your way, our usual Monday episode back in studio.

38:07Charlie, Alex, back alongside myself. Special guest, I've heard. Yeah, we have a 2003 England World Cup winner coming on. So we'll pick out the bones of this game a bit more, get Alex's view, and all the rest of the action over the weekend. New Zealand's thumping win over Scotland. Wales beating Japan, but was it that convincing? loads for us to try and get into. So loads more coming your way. Appreciate all of you listening. This has been The Ruck, the rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times. Dominic O 'Connell and Hannah Privet here from The Business Podcast. Join us for a special episode with President of the British Chambers of Commerce and former Chief Economist at the Bank of England, Andy Haldane, and PwC's UK tax leader, Claire Blackburn, as we look ahead to John Healy's first budget.

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