Nations Championship preview: Who should be England's fly-half?

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1:17Alfie: Hello, welcome everyone to The Ruck, the rugby podcast from The Times and Sunday Times. It's the start of November, which means a month of international rugby ahead. I'm Alfie Reynolds. Great to have your company. Coming up, we'll preview the first round of fixtures. What are the big selection questions for Steve Borthwick and England? Can Scotland build upon their encouraging summer? And is there reason for Welsh optimism? All of that and much, much more in the company of Charlie Morgan. Hi, Charlie. Hello, mate. How are you?

1:45Charlie: Very well, thank you.

1:46Alfie: Little week off for half term, but back, raring to go for November.

1:49Charlie: Little week off with the kids in Weymouth. Yeah, I'm back with a bang. We were, when the match days came around in July, they were stacked and awesome. And I'm feeling excited about the same happening now we're in November.

2:02Alfie: Yeah, looking forward to the month ahead. Also with us in studio, Stuart Barnes. Good to see you, Barnesy, in person. Always a pleasure. Yeah, studio looking very fine, resplendent, taking me back to the sky days. Well, we were saying it's like you're used to this sort of environment, a man who spent many years in TV. Yeah, most of my life. Whether it's wasted, I don't know, but it's very exciting to be back. And this should be a really good month of rugby. Yeah, well, it is always good to have you in person as well, Barnsley. We should mention we're going to be chatting to Mark Palmer coming up.

2:32Alfie: He's going to be joining us to look ahead in detail to Scotland's match against the All Blacks. That's one of those really intriguing games. We should mention, lads, in studio, for those of you that are watching on YouTube at Times Sport, they'll be able to see in the background. We've got the trophies in here with us, the Nations Championship trophy, which is going to be going to the top individual nation at the end of this month. And then also the Hemisphere Shield in between Barnsley and Charlie as well. Looking shiny, looking good, aren't they, lads?

2:57Charlie: They are looking gorgeous. And you've explained that beautifully, succinctly. That looks like a roulette wheel.

3:03Alfie: It looks good. Marvellous. So Hemisphere Shield, that's going to be settled on the finals weekend at Twickenham at the end of the month where we're going to have number one in Northern Hemisphere playing number one in Southern Hemisphere, basically like a Ryder Cup. the overall winners, the overall hemisphere winners, pick up the shield and then the nation's championship trophy as well. So thank you to the guys who've brought them in for us today, to Callum and Charlie who have been lugging them across London to get them in studio. We appreciate it. They're looking good. I think we're in agreement with that, aren't we, lads?

3:31Alfie: Look, absolute stacked billing of international rugby to come up. Just before that, can we just have a really quick word on the Prem? Because I always think it feels weird. We spend so much time focusing on the Prem, then internationals come round and we totally forget about it. But just really quickly, Charlie, before we build up to that England-Australia game and chat about all the other international rugby. If we're looking at the Prem, this first block, right, five games, now it breaks for the internationals. Leicester are top, having won four of their five games. But below that, it is so close, isn't it?

4:01Alfie: Like you feel like everyone's very, very evenly matched this year.

4:04Charlie: Yeah. Leicester kind of three points away from on the opening day from having a clean sweep. and maybe they've gone under the radar a bit, maybe not quite getting the plaudits that their performances have deserved, certainly up front. And I thought they were really... Aside from the difficulty they had breaking down a 13-man Bristol on Friday night, I thought they were really impressive in that game. Really kind of stout, really set piece, really accurate as well. I was at Bath to watch them get past Sale and they were just a little bit more, as Jan van Graan said afterwards, a little bit more clinical than they had been in previous weeks when they'd been frustrated by sort of struggles in the opposition 22 and not being able to put away sides.

4:46Charlie: Henry Arundel coming back was huge for them, just gave them that spark and that out-and-out speed. I thought Myles Reid, opposite the two Curry twins, was outstanding. Just phenomenal at the breakdown, really, really tenacious there. And yeah, I think that's a pretty decent summary. I've been impressed by Gloucester, but Saints getting one over on them It was a big result. And yeah, they're sort of queuing up for the playoff race when we return.

5:12Alfie: Barnsley, you were in Devon over the weekend. What have you made of this first block, though, of Prem games? Well, I would say that possibly we haven't got one outstanding team at the moment. And I think Jeff Parling made the point. Parling said that Leicester aren't even at their best, yet they're the team top at the moment. So I think on a global scale, it's a slight worry, and maybe this month of November we'll see whether the Premiership, after that orgy of tries in the first few weeks, is the real thing, or whether it's a product that is still a little bit underpowered from the point of view of putting together an England team.

5:54And that's where it's going to be interesting. On the club rugby itself, I would say one thing. I thought Harlequins were outstanding, especially in the first 20 minutes. There was a massive penalty count against them, but they got back over the line. And I'm sure we'll talk about it. But the 10-15 axis that we see so often with New Zealand and South Africa, it's alive and well with George Furbank playing beautifully alongside Marcus Smith. And I think that is an interesting talking point for the hours, weeks and months ahead.

6:28Alfie: Yeah, I think that may well be coming up very, very shortly about what England do at 10 and at 15. Before we get into maybe the gritty detail of it, I was looking at in 12 months time, the start of this week is going to be building up to the World Cup semifinals. And we've gone into that territory now, haven't we, where you feel like, particularly international rugby, everything is happening with the context of a World Cup next year. So with that in mind, this month, Barnsley, what does this mean? What's this month all about? I think it's foundations now. Some of the building has been awful and it's been blown over by gusts of wind, if you like, especially if we're talking about England.

7:07New Zealand, you can see where they're going. South Africa, they're rigid. They know where they are. But Razzie Erasmus has got everything marked out. But New Zealand are the team who have the potential more than anyone to beat them. And I want to see if they can maintain this high-paced game that could scare even South Africa. I'm English. We're an English product here on the pod. So, yes, of course, I'm interested with England. There's been too much inconsistency, not necessarily in selection, but how they want to play. I want to see England pick a core of key players and then develop around it and play that way.

7:50The last time England should have said, let's experiment, was after South Africa when they lost 45-21 against Fiji in that Fijian stronghold of Everton. They should have experimented then. They didn't. That's history. That's the past. I think Steve Borthwick now has to say, how do we go about putting together a World Cup squad? And it isn't any longer about plucking names from nowhere. It's about having a core squad and getting it together.

8:22Alfie: How much harder is that, Charlie, for Steve Borthwick? Look, we're recording this on Monday morning. We're expecting that the England squad to come out this evening. So depending on the news there, then this might be a little out of date. But Alex Mitchell hobbled off on the weekend with what we understand is another hamstring injury. his fourth in, was it 12 months or the last couple of years, like a pretty short space of time. There's doubts over Finn Smith, Archie McParlane. Those are some pretty big and significant injuries for Steve Borthwick to have to deal with, aren't they?

8:49Charlie: This might sound counterintuitive, but I think two of the most kind of damaging, strong word I know, but damaging injuries are to two players that could potentially raise England's ceiling. So I'm talking specifically about Capitupolotu and Archie McParlane because I feel like they were two young guys, both 21, earmarked to give England a bit of energy heading towards the World Cup and maybe be, well, maybe, they still might be, but be bolters for that tournament. And I felt like this campaign was earmarked as one where they would be integrated, give them more game time, certainly playing against Japan and then maybe playing a little bit more in the other games because I think they have the potential for different reasons.

9:26Charlie: Kepu Tupolotu for his power, his jackaling, Archie McParlane for his sort of craft around the base of Rucks and then also he's excellent at picking up those second touches in broken field. But they're both out. They both didn't survive this latest alignment camp. Both got injured in that. That's really frustrating. Seems like they might not figure at all. And it feels like a little bit back to the drawing board at Hooker, where you've got Jamie George, you've got Luke Kandiki. Who's that third guy? Theodan's game time has dried up in the last year. He's had 13 caps, I think it is, over the World Cup cycle.

10:02Charlie: but you're thinking, is he really trusted as a third hooker? Scrumhoff, you mentioned that Mitchell going off, seems like Jack Van Portfliet is the go-to guy now.

10:12Alfie: He's the guy that would come in, right, most likely? I think he might have started anyway,

10:17Charlie: but I think they've got Ben Spencer to come back and we'll see, as you say, we're recording this before, we know for sure, but we'll see who the third choice is. Harry Randall's been in good form for Bristol, but they could go elsewhere. I was going to say that choice on a bowl to scrum half is really dependent on how they want to play. And it will tell you quite a lot. If they want to play a controlled kicking game at a sort of third gear, then Ben Spencer's the man. I've got to be honest, I've been critical of Spencer for slowing down Bath and slowing down Russell and the ambition of their game.

10:52And if England want to think, if England think to beat the best, they've got to be able to go into overdrive. then Randle, despite having a very dodgy start to the game for Bristol Friday when he kept getting charged down, by the end he was picking and going and I'm not saying he's a certainty, but he's a player that's done certain things that make you think, if McParlane's not there, would that quick bolt and go? And I agree with everything you say about McParlane, I'm a big fan, but if he's not there, you want a like for like. Spencer's not a like for like, Randle is.

11:24Alfie: And it'll tell us, as you say, an awful lot about how England may be are approaching this November and how they want to play. What about fly half then? We understand Finn Smith is 50-50. Barnsley, who do you think should start at 10 against the Wallabies if Finn Smith's not available? I sometimes feel I was the last man who deserted Marcus Smith and I feel guilty for my desertion. Finn Smith has played very well in the last year and if he's fit, has earned the right to be England's first choice 10 to start this tournament. Marcus Smith in the past has played beautifully for England at times. It's one of those things that people forget it and they don't want to remember it.

12:05The way Smith is playing now with George Furbank in a 10-15 access is a little bit like what England were hoping for two years ago from Finsmith Furbank when they were both Northampton. So he's got a lot going for him. And the way Harlequins are using their centres to crash the game line just tells me that playing his way will suit them. And I think Steve Borthwick, I don't know what you think, but Borthwick, you said to me, five blokes he'll definitely pick between now and the World Cup. I think Seb Atkinson is nailed on as his 12th. And if you nail him on as your 12th, then Marcus Smith enters the equation because he's going to be playing front football.

12:50He becomes a massive challenger to Finn Smith. and I think it takes him way away from George Ford because Ford sits back and plays a different game. If your 12 is Atkinson, then your 10 very much becomes an issue where Marcus Smith could almost, with one big game against Australia, could get his place back.

13:13Alfie: To come back at you on that, what's changed for you in the last 12 months? Because we were joking before, weren't we? We had this same conversation about a year ago ahead of England playing the All Blacks And I think I was saying, I think Finn Smith should start. You were saying it's George Ford all day long. Is it just a matter of form for George Ford? Yeah, you would drive me mad when you were saying Finn Smith would shout. It was so obviously George Ford, but it was George Ford then. Because at that stage, George Ford was playing beautifully. In the last year, he's got a year older. And in the last year, he's got more conservative.

13:46I wrote about it in Monday's Times. his brother Joe said Bath's defensive line speed spooked us watch South Africa, watch New Zealand probably watch Australia Sunday if your fly half cannot play in the face of defensive line speed then you have nothing to do but to kick the ball away and if you want to kick the ball away to New Zealand, South Africa and Australia you better kick bloody well because they'll tear you to pieces on the counter So I think the difference is George Ford at 21 year old was the most exciting young English fly half I'd seen for 20 years. George Ford a year ago was playing beautiful controlled rugby.

14:31But times change. Things change. And George Ford at this moment in time is neither playing well enough at the moment. But more importantly, he doesn't fit the system that is required if you're going to play Seb Atkinson at 13.

14:47Charlie: Charlie, you agree? I agree with just about every word there. To play devil's advocate a little bit, Marcus Smith has played more time at scrum half. Since round two of the 25 Six Nations, he's played more time at scrum half for England than he has at fly half. And that's because he had those two emergency outings at scrum half against Fiji and then Argentina in the summer. And he was just seen as this auxiliary fullback, wasn't he? Because England didn't want Freddie Stewart there and they were absolutely desperate for George Furbank to get a run of games. George Ford is a test centurion. The noises coming out of the England camp last week suggested that they know they are pitting themselves as this team that haven't had that much time together against a team in Australia that have.

15:34Charlie: And therefore that makes me think, which I don't agree with, I think they should be bolder than that and they should have the confidence to sort of lean on the cohesion, the existing cohesion that they already have and they have built up over the last year. But if they are in that frame of mind, I can see George Ford starting. Now, I don't necessarily agree with that. And what I would go back to, as you mentioned a few years ago, in 2024, England went to New Zealand with Marcus Smith at 10. They had George Fairbank at 15 and they had Theo Bosa and Freeman on the wings. And they caused problems and they should have won at least one of those tests in New Zealand.

16:11Charlie: And so there are arguments, there are cohesion arguments for starting Marcus Smith at 10 as well. And I just think that maybe the intangible to throw in here is that it's England's first trip back to Twickenham since they were abysmal in that Ireland game. and I think there is a little bit of a sense that they have to bring supporters along with them a little bit right from the start of this campaign and I think the best way to do that is with Marcus Huckton.

16:39Alfie: I can't help but look at it as well and let's say I agree with you both by the way I think Marcus, if Finn Smith's not there Marcus is the man to start against Australia. If he then plays really well and keeps the shirt through the Six Nations and I'm getting ahead of myself but kind of come with me and then into the World Cup wouldn't it be mad that you'd have a World Cup cycle where you'd have Marcus Smith, who you say, Charlie, has played more at scrum half recently, has mainly been a fullback, and then still could be England's fly half when we get to the World Cup.

17:04Charlie: You have happy accidents in the World Cup cycles. And I think that would be quite a nice one, wouldn't it? Because if you have Finn Smith coming, but if this calf injury clears up after he misses this first game, after Marcus Smith has gone well at 10, that's great. And then maybe there the solution is that England flip to a 5-3 bench and have scope to really change it up over the course of 80 minutes in the road to the World Cup. We've seen it with New Zealand, how a happy accident for them is that they've looked at Ruben Love, who's looked pretty tidy even against. And then Damien McKenzie's looked fired up when he's come in at 10 and has been excellent in those two wins over Australia.

17:43Charlie: So, you know, there can certainly be situations that kind of inadvertently enhance your depth. and I think that could be one of those things.

17:54Alfie: Fascinating. I tell you what, it's interesting. I think there are loads of different selection calls we could debate with England. We've ended up focusing on the back line, which makes sense, I think, based upon the injuries. Do we want to rattle through and try and name... Do you try and name a back line that you think should start against Australia? Because I found it interesting that you said with Atkinson Barnes, he's a guy that's nailed on and actually he's got what, Charlie, eight? Seven. Seven caps. Not nailed on by me. I think he's nailed on by the England management. I just get that feeling.

18:20And there was one score, Gloucester, in their defeat at Northampton, when he got onto the game line, his timing, he had the physical prowess not to be buffeted. The timing of his path to Will Joseph was just mesmeric. And I'm thinking that's what England are looking at and that's what England have been missing. In someone like Fraser Dingwall, tremendous player, but does he quite have the heft at test match level? There's that ability to be there every week at club level. And then there's that which you need to go that little bit higher. And England have got to find that. And I think Steve Balfour believes that Atkinson has it.

19:04And if that's the case, then I think it's Van Portfreak now. But I think it's McParlane come the World Cup. I think it's if England are going to win the World Cup, it's Marcus Smith now and the World Cup. I think you look at Faye Woboso and Freeman as your wingers. I'll go along with Steve Borthwick because I like to agree with him now and again. And I would say...

19:34Alfie: He'll be delighted, I'm sure. The only thing we've got in common is we're both SB. I think Atkinson is a good option. 13, I'm still thinking about it. and 15 is George Furbank nailed on. Help me with 13. I think they will go with Slade.

19:54Charlie: I don't think that's a, I think that makes sense because of that existing familiarity. Certainly now, all of this is now. I would like to see, yeah, because the 13 is 30. I mean, just it's mind-blowing. It can't be in pace every conversation

20:09Alfie: we've had over the last 10 years.

20:10Charlie: It really is mind-blowing how there is so much uncertainty about those centres. That's an indictment, Charlie, of England's lack of selection coherence. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I think, so I think in that respect, you can only go on this weekend. I think for this weekend, Slade there, I would really like to see Joseph in the 23 shirt, whether it's a 5-3 bench or a 6-2 bench, because I think he's flitted between wing and centre really well for Gloucester. He's done that really well in harness with Seb Atkinson. And I think he's in better touch than Joe Marchant is. They've come in as a similar profile of player.

20:53Charlie: And I just think he just looks, he's just sort of being more influential in games than Joe Marchant is. And again, like I said with George Ford, Marchant is back in for a reason. He's a classy player, but crucially, there's that test experience, 28 caps, which is something that Steve Borthwick finds hard to ignore, as we know.

21:17Alfie: I do wonder whether he'll go with Marchant, but we'll wait and see. The only thing I would probably push back on, based on everything you guys have said there, is I think England can still win the World Cup with Finn Smith as the 10. I'm excited to see what Marcus Smith looks like. I've got to say, I don't think he can win the World Cup full stop. But you said they can if they've got Marcus Smith. No, their best chance. Their best chance of winning it is by having the capacity to be like as if it Damian McKenzie is your 10 and you've got to open up South Africa. England won't beat South Africa by playing box kicks and high balls.

21:49They won't do that. They'll just feed the South African counter and they'll get clobbered. New Zealand, they've lost three games, but they're developing and they've shown if you're going to win the World Cup, let's say you've got to beat South Africa. Is that a fair sort of assessment? Yeah, France might beat them, but that's the level to which you must attain. And I think that the catalyst for England to attain that level is Marcus Smith because it can make their backs more than just and add on to a strong pack.

22:22Alfie: I should clarify as well that I accept at the moment England look a million miles away from winning the World Cup. But I suppose I was saying that I think Finn Smith is a good enough player that in an England team playing well, I think he can marshal that team was kind of what I was going for. I'll tell you what, just very quickly before we have a chat to Mark and look ahead to Scotland's game against the All Blacks. Australia this weekend, how big a challenge are this Wallabies team under Les Kiss? They picked up some good results, Barnsley, but against the box team that have rotated. Where are Australia in your mind ahead of Sunday?

22:51Well, they got flattened by the All Blacks twice, but I would say to any English fans, don't take that for granted in terms of England winning. They have a very strong front row. They put Angus Bell on the bench for the second test against New Zealand because they just got wiped out in the second half. So they tried to get impact subs. Bell went really well, but the game was over by half-time because New Zealand were very good. But Jeremy Williams is outstanding. Canham is a very good lock. Their back row is excellent. They've got Hooper back, who wasn't available for that match. They've got Paisimi back.

23:28They've got Iketao, who is genuinely one of the best 12s. We talked about Seb Atkinson and a 12 who gives you the line and lets people play. He's there. They've got Carter Gordon at 10 where they've struggled. You know, I think Australia, despite getting hammered by New Zealand, I think that was more a reflection on how good New Zealand were. Australia will not be anyone's fault on Sunday at Twickenham.

23:55Charlie: I'm really interested in the back row they get. Carlo Tisano is just an absolute dog at the breakdown. I think he could, there's this sort of notion that the Prem sides are a bit soft there on their own ball. That is going to be put to the test, whoever Australia pick. And yeah, I'm, as Barns is, really looking forward to seeing how Wiccao gets the most out of those around him, for sure.

24:16Alfie: That should be good. Looking forward to Sunday. We're all going to be there. We'll be podding afterwards as well. And we're going to have more England chat coming your way later on this week, either Thursday or Friday. We'll have another pod looking ahead to the weekend, reacting to the team that Steve Borthwick has selected. So lots more coming your way in the Ruck feed, wherever you get your pods from. We'll have a quick break. Up next, Mark Palmer will join us to look ahead to Scotland's match against the All-Dikes. So always a pleasure to have Mark Palmer on the Ruck. Mark, how are you? I appreciate you joining us.

24:46Very well. Always a pleasure to be here. Morning, gentlemen, afternoon, whatever it is. Morning, afternoon. The time difference.

24:53Alfie: Look, Mark, I'll get straight into it. I think this is arguably the game of the weekend. certainly such an intriguing match at the weekend. Scotland had a positive summer, didn't they? Wins against Fiji and Argentina. They were commendable in defeat to the Springboks with some of the questions they posed the back-to-back world champion. So are those the kind of positive foundations for Gregor Townsend's team to build upon this November? They are, but I think that it's not just my innately pessimistic self speaking here. I think this is a very different All Blacks team than the one that Scotland have run close on the last four occasions.

25:28Actually, I think it's been by a margin of eight points or fewer, won by five points as well in 2017. I think that was Gregor's first game against them. So the pattern has been trending in the right direction in terms of us appearing to get closer to them. But I think this is a different beast that we're dealing with altogether under Dave Rennie. So I do fear, I must say, for the weekend, I genuinely don't really see how this is going to be the one where Scotland break their duck in the fixture. I've got to say Mark you're such a Calvinist really but I mean you're right about Dave Rennie do you think the Scottish backline are going to try and go toe to toe with this incredible pacey New Zealand setbacks I think they will because it's really the only way that Scotland know and whether that's advisable or not is open to question but I think in one sense having set it up there by saying I think Scotland will lose the game I think it's set up to be a great game of rugby.

26:28The weather, I think, is supposed to be decent. It should hopefully facilitate a game where both teams will be looking to get to the wins, looking to play with pace. Fantastic talent all over the pitch behind the scum, and in the scum as well, the play-making ability in there. So I think it should, it has all the makings of a fantastic spectacle. I just can only see one outcome, unfortunately.

26:49Alfie: I get, I totally get where you're coming from there, Mark. I was thinking about this game and thought, it felt like last year was the really great shot, right? That Scott Robertson, All Blacks team, which weren't as, we don't feel anywhere near as dangerous as the team we suspect that are coming to Murrayfield this weekend. Does Scotland take much encouragement, though, from the Six Nations game against France and the way they went about their business in beating a very, very good French team? Do you think they look at that much ahead of facing the All Blacks? I think they will. And it's, you know, it's that pattern of also, you know, how to take on and beat critically a team that, you know, never mind the talent in the backs, also have a formidable pack there.

27:28You know, and that's been Scotland's Achilles heel is going up against the really best powerful units in the world and finding a way to get past them. The crucial bit about that France game was that they were utterly clinical in terms of chances that they created and then took. That's been a recurring theme over the past week when we've spoken to everyone within the camp that, you know, that South Africa game you referenced at Loftus, They did go toe-to-toe with South Africa for long spells and had umpteen chances to actually go on and win the game. Didn't take them. Springboks, on the flip side of that, incredibly clinical when they got in the red zone.

28:02And you know that that's what New Zealand are going to be like as well. They showed it last year when Scotland pulled them from 17 points back to 17 each. And then Damien McKenzie scored that absolutely incredible finish in the corner. Meanwhile, Scotland are letting two or three golden opportunities pass them by in that same period. So, you know, they're going to have to produce something that's been well beyond anything they have collectively up to now under Gregor. That's the challenge, really. But it's one they shouldn't be shying away from equally.

28:30Charlie: Mark, you did a lovely piece with Mike Blair at the start of his sort of tenure. So did you. At the start of his tenure with New Zealand. Can you tell me about watching on and the influence that he's had on the all-black side and maybe now how there's an element of familiarity with Scotland going against him and trying to shut down an attack that he's running? I think it was a brilliant marriage and meeting of minds. A great pick from Dave Rennie to bring Mike in there because the best of Kiwi attacking rugby and the traditions there that Dave has been trying to revive, it fit exactly with the way that Mike has always seen played and coached the game.

29:05So, you know, trying to get to the woods, trying to encourage players to, regardless of the number on their back, to be able to bring out those softer skills. And, you know, you can see that influence having really come out, not just in those two big heavy beating of the Wallabies, but also in the greatest rivalry series. You see that imprint coming through. It will be really fascinating to see this kind of game within a game. Perhaps not so much Dave Rennie against Gregor Townsend, but Mike against Gregor Townsend, because for so long he's been seen as Gregor's protege. He brought him on to his coaching staff at Glasgow way back in the day, having coached his kind of final year as a player, then brought him on to Scotland very early on as well.

29:43And it was seen that the natural progression was that Mike would eventually replace Gregor. And then when he went into the head coach's role at Edinburgh, he showed incredible self-awareness to recognise fairly all on that it wasn't for him. There's not many people who would walk away from a number one gig like that, but he knew that being an attack coach was where he could offer the most. And he's now ended up in the best attack coach's job in the world. And it's interesting as well, because I asked him in that piece about, did he feel kind of what's that dynamic like when you're a Scotsman walking into an all-black changing room trying to tell them how to attack and he said he genuinely did feel at the start a little bit nervous is the right word but a little bit of trepidation there but he says he's been blown away by the coachability of these guys.

30:25Dave Rennie when he appointed him made the point that he felt that New Zealand had fallen behind some of the ideas in the Northern Hemisphere that had been coming through over the last generation so Mike's job has been to bring some of those as well and he also has, without wishing to tartan fry this too much, he's very much praised the influence of their skills coach, Ewan McIntosh, who very coincidentally happens to be a fellow Invernesian like myself. He has ended up via Todd Blackard, Toshiba Brave Lupus, the Chinese women's team. A very circuitous route is now the all-black skill coach and apparently is running sessions, half-hour slots from dawn to dusk in that camp.

31:05So, again, it shows the willingness of these guys to actually step up and still be... You know, the desire for self-improvement, even though they're already clearly quite good at rugby. I've got to say, it's like the empire in its balmy days when everything was coming out of Glasgow to the rest of the world, Mark. And now it's Inverness. So, there you go. Now it's Inverness.

31:31Alfie: Mark, where is Scotland in terms of the Bill of Health? We were chatting about England before, and as always, injury concerns at nine. Who's going to start at ten? What do the centres look like? Where are the Scots in terms of personnel? Touched with actually a remarkably good place from this point in the season. Darcy Graham, who we know has had a hell of a run with injuries. He's been in and out, in and out, and I think at the moment is in. But whether he actually starts the game, there's been a bit of a changing of the guard in the Scotland back three, as you know. So that aside, it's a pretty clear Queen Bill of Health.

32:06They lost Jamie Ritchie at the weekend there, who has been certainly an excellent bench option in recent times with that ability to play across the back row and his aerial ability in the modern game has really come through. But that aside, they are pretty well placed. So there'll be no excuses on that front.

32:24Alfie: And what about, I feel like this is a question, we get to certainly November, international windows. I ask you every single time, and I'm going to ask you again, lack of originality on my part, but I think it's because it's worth asking, Mark, New Zealand, Australia, Japan, plus then the finals weekend, what success this month for the Scots? I think there'll be, you know, a very good recent record against Australia, albeit much like we were saying with the Kiwis, I think this is a different beast of an Australian side. I think they will, you know, if it's two wins against Australia and Japan and then a creditable performance against New Zealand, I think that probably does constitute a successful month.

33:01It would then tee up hopefully for a, you know, maybe a second or third place final down at Twickenham. So, yeah, I think that's probably the two out of three and hoping for the magic third.

33:12Alfie: Either way, it's an exciting way to start, isn't it? I know we started off on a pessimistic note, but the All Blacks at Murrayfield, it's going to be a good afternoon. As a spectacle, yeah, it should be absolutely outstanding. Mark, good stuff. Really appreciate you joining us as always and no doubt we'll be chatting a lot more over the next month. Thank you very much, James. Perfect. Thank you very much, Mark. Another quick break. Up next, we'll finish the pod by looking ahead to the rest of the action this weekend.

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34:58Alfie: OK, so rounding off the rest of the pod with the rest of the action, where do we want to start, Stuart Charlie? Maybe Friday night, Ireland-Argentine. I feel like it's going under the radar a little bit. I'm intrigued by that game.

35:07Charlie: Yeah, it's a real... There are a few... I wouldn't quite say that one is a... It feels like every week there's a real signpost game for how the World Cup's going to go as a whole. England-Australia this weekend, it feels like a potential quarter-finals. Scotland-New Zealand, though, is the one that I'm most excited about. and I think and as Mark says Scotland are going to throw some shots which is exactly what we want but this one yeah this one coming up on Friday creeping up and sort of sets up the weekend really nicely it means hopefully that the weekend will be on sooner than we know Argentina have just been an infuriating side for a little while haven't they they're sort of like the old France where their ceiling is super high but their basement is in the toilet so they've got those really ill-disciplined inconsistent sort of patches within games in them.

35:56Charlie: But if they are consistent across that 80 minutes, they're going to be a handful for anybody. And you're kind of, you know, you're waiting to see how much they can trouble Ireland in that regard, I guess. If you're looking for a building block from autumn to the World Cup, I say I see Ireland and Argentina as two teams you wouldn't consider as World Cup winners, but dark horses, teams that could really stun someone and get to the semi-finals and cause some pain along the way. Argentina, I was disappointed with them in the summer, really disappointed. But I think we've got to say, you know, Steve Borthwick says, there's talk about England having had time with the players.

36:38They get all this time with the players. They've played three games in the summer. Argentina really do have it difficult. They've got players, they're playing in the best leagues. Yeah, they're all over the world, but that's the problem. They're all over the world. They're not just playing in different club styles in an English team or a French team. They're playing different global forms of rugby. And then the league play Contopone gets them together. And really, they're tired because they play all the year round. They rely on this sort of crazy Argentinian passion. When you see the anthem, it's my favourite anthem in world sport.

37:19because of the tears and the emotion. It really gets you going. And they rely on that first game or so until they get their patterns going. They have a lot of very good players. We see that in the Prem. But, you know, I don't like England saying we might not have a lot, you know, we're not ready. I don't buy that. Argentina, I do.

37:40Alfie: Talk to me about Wales. Wales against Japan this weekend. I've just got, I don't know if it's because I've got a bias now that there's a lot of Welsh players in the Prem. We've got Jack Morgan and Dowie Lake at Gloucester and they're going brilliantly. Lewis Rees-Zamit, I think, has returned to form. But I find myself feeling far more positive about Wales heading into this November. And I don't know why. Is it just because I'm biased that the Welsh players are playing well in the Prem?

38:02Charlie: No, I feel a bit basic on that regard because I'm like, these players are now in front of my eyes in the league that I'm covering once a week. And I've had a newfound appreciation for them. I mean, maybe less so someone like Jack Morgan, who's been prominent now for a while in Tess stuff. Lake is the one that has really opened my eyes, to be honest. And just because if you just watch him go about his business, if you've watched him go about his business for Gloucester this season, I think particularly defensive breakdown, he's a menace there. And I think he's, and actually, even if you're watching him sort of off the ball in moments when he's sort of getting a, let's not forget, this is his first season.

38:38Charlie: He's been made captain because they've clearly seen his influence around the club. And everybody is hanging off his head with every word when the TNT cameras are over the top of these huddles. And he's played like he's really demanded that attention too. Louis Jussanet scored a phenomenal try against Leicester on Friday night. That was really, it was haze that he went, haze and I think crack normal. He went through around the ruck, but the manner in which he finished it was exceptional. Aaron Wainwright has gone maybe under the radar a little bit for Leicester, but has been excellent. He really rolled his sleeves up on Friday night as part of that forward effort.

39:17Charlie: There's a lot to like about them. Whether they can kind of come together and get a bit of impetus is a different thing. But that means this game, this first game, very important in that. But what's really intriguing as well, and will tell us a lot, is how good is the Prem? because these are blokes who do it, strutting their stuff week in, week out in the URC. And English fans largely don't watch the URC, ignore it, decide the Prem is a better tournament than anything except the top 14. And so we're going to find this out. You know, we had one round of Europe and I would never judge a competition on just one round.

39:57The result pool is too narrow. But, you know, if we have another round of European matches and the English get hammered, you're going to say, well, maybe it's not that the Welsh are so much better in the English league. It's that the English league, which there are notable people in the Celtic world who say we blow it up and it's not as good as we have you believe. And maybe it's not. And that's really intriguing. How do England go? it tells us not just about Steve Balthwick in England, but it might just tell us a little bit about the Prem and its associated leagues.

40:38Alfie: Yeah, maybe. What you would say is Wales have to win, don't they, against Japan? That's the game that they've got to get a result this weekend. Yeah. Oh, yeah, for sure. With the challenges they have to come. France, France-Fiji this weekend. France are interesting because it's building up to that game at the Stade de France against the Springboks, right? Going back to your point, Charlie, of games this month that you circle and you focus. because I think we're all excited about that. Do you have some significant injuries, though, Barnsley? It's not just because I like to think about fly halves, having been an ancient one myself, but I've always been a massive fan of Mathieu Jalibert.

41:13I thought when France were picking Entomac over him, it was crazy. I thought there was a stage almost where Galtier should have lost his job because he was making such a horlicks of the number 10 position. And Jalibert has come in and Jalibert is up there, probably the most consistent fly half in the world in the last year. South Africa and New Zealand have brilliance, but this guy has done it. And all this talk about, well, he's flash and he does this and he does that. He drives the team and he drives France just as he drives Bordeaux. and they will miss him hugely. But this isn't a threat for France.

41:57It's an opportunity. They've also, I think, Thomas Ramos is injured. Yeah, yeah. Meafu, Flamengo. But, you know, Meafu is massive in how they drive him. But if you lose, we talked earlier about the 10-15 axis when we were talking about Smith and Furbank. Dare I say it, but right now you look at Jalibert and Ramos as almost on a slightly other level again. and both of them out, then France have got to really work on this. And if they can come through against South Africa with Entemac at 10 and probably Atisogbon at 15, then they have got two back lines that can compete with anyone. So if they lose, they've got an excuse.

42:43If they win, watch out, France are coming.

42:46Charlie: I'd help them up. We were on a pod in the summer, I think, where we were holding France up as the sort of the northern hemisphere side that were most likely to make a dent at the World Cup and challenge South Africa. My confidence in that happening next Friday, Friday week, has gone down because I think that's the difference between depth and then when you lose a player that really elevates you or players in France's case. And Miafu is just a different sort of profile of player, isn't he? That big second row, dense kind of defensive lines. And obviously, Jelibar. Jelibar, what I would say about Jelibar is not only is he being consistent, but he has been sort of on the tactical wave of tens that are offering a running threat.

43:29Charlie: And Finn Smith speaks about this really well. I think it was back in the last season I interviewed him and he was speaking about how, if you think about Sasha Feinberg and Gomazulu and Matthew Jelibar, the amount of times that they're running to try and pick up an offload off their forwards, that they're abandoning that deep position to push flatter. that's what's elevating the teams they're playing for and Jalibar as I say right on the cusp of that Thomas Ramos is how many times have we seen him win games with his goal kicking alone almost and he's obviously a fantastic player vision as well isn't he awesome in the backfield he'll be down these cul-de-sacs and he'll all escape and sort of conjure something so they're three really big players and Flamman as well is an excellent player so yeah that's what I mean about the difference between having that depth but then having the sort of the star quality to deal with when you lose players that really kind of enhance you.

44:19And Charlie, what a stark contrast. We talked about Meafu. South Africa come without one of the greatest second rows in modern times, even Ezebet. They've got three or four first-teamers out, but if you look at Ezebet and you look at Cheslin Colby, you've got the Ironman and a match winner. But South Africa come with a squad where they don't say, woe is me. They don't go, we're not with Eben, we've not got Cheslin. They just say, Razzi will say, it's an opportunity. They've got so many good players. They've got wingers. They've got cover for Etzabed now. And that's where World Cups, there will be injuries.

45:00And squads aren't as big as they are this coming November. so the South Africans are just saying our squad will be in a position to go for the three times World Cup France have got a golden opportunity to say we can challenge you in terms of strength and depth because there will be in a World Cup key injuries and we can't papers will say oh it's a crisis you've got to get out of this mindset of saying it's a crisis you've just got to say hell we've got another really good player and that's how you win a World Cup

45:33Alfie: yeah everyone's going to to have to deal with injuries. The thing with the France-South Africa game, I think, was it last year that South Africa had a player sent off and still beat them? Was that last year? Yeah, it was last year. In November, you look at that and then plus you factor in some of the injuries the French are having to deal with. Look, you never know. We know how good a team that France are. But, you know, looking forward to that game next week. And also South Africa, they start off this weekend against Italy, who I think we were expecting that to be a South African win. But we shall wait and see.

46:00Alfie: Barnsley, Charlie, we'll leave it there. It's going to be a good month, though, isn't it? Fantastic. Each England game, we're all going to be at every England game, aren't we? Yep. So you guys will be filing, we'll be podding, loads more content coming everyone's way. So whether you're watching on YouTube, whether you're listening to the pod, then just keep your eyes and ears peeled. As I've said already, the next pod this week will come towards the end of the week. We will be at the England training base reacting to the team that Steve Borthwick has selected. We'll leave it there. Thank you very much for watching on YouTube at Timesport.

46:28Alfie: Thank you for listening. This has been The Ruck, the rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times. guessing is for game shows not your business workday is the enterprise ai platform for hr finance and it with ai grounded in your context to get work done and done right it's a new workday control of capitol hill hangs in the balance as donald trump faces a contest that could supercharge his presidency or turn him into a lame duck join me john pina on times radio drive live from Washington, D.C., and Andrew Neal, who'll be presenting Times at One from New York all week. We'll be bringing you the sharp perspective and expert analysis straight from the decision makers who are shaping this race in the U.S.

47:14Follow every moment then, live and free on Times Radio.