An evening with Lewis Moody

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1:20Hello, everyone. Welcome to The Ruck, the rugby podcast from The Times and Sunday Times. Alfie here, and we have a little midweek treat for you. There's loads more coverage of the Nations Championship coming your way. But last week, Alex hosted a very special evening with the former England and Leicester back row, Lewis Moody. They chat about his new book, his incredible career and his diagnosis for MND. We hope you enjoy it and we'll be back with you on Thursday to build up to the weekend's fixtures.

2:09Thank you guys. Thank you. Thank you so much. I nearly left him to walk out on his own there, like a classic Lester prank from back in the day. Stitch me right up. Thank you all for being here. Special Times Plus event with the one and only Lewis Moody. Thank you all if you are subscribers to the Times and Sunday Times. And if you're not, why not? No, seriously, great time to join us. Auto International is around the corner. World Cup coming up. Come and join us. When I was asked to intro about the questions, it reminded me of a line in your book, Lewis, in which you said, as I moved through my sporting career and even more after I left it I realised there's no such thing as a stupid question which is good for us to know although as a journalist who's interviewed Martin Johnson he's the first person who would disavow that notion immediately with a raised eyebrow and a burrowed frow well anyone that knows me knows that I'm capable of many a stupid question so yeah it's quite nice, it's the first time I think I've been is this a church where we describe this as a church?

3:17This is probably the first time I've been in a church since I was at school. It feels a little bit confessional. I wasn't intending that in front of 600 people, I have to admit. This is going to be a good session. We should say Annie's here. Mrs. Moody, tonight is a special Annie's here.

3:46A special occasion tonight for you guys, not just being here. Yeah, so 28 years ago today, I took Annie out on our first date. So what's better than a beautiful, intimate evening like this? What a lucky lady. I'd love to say it was a very memorable evening. And Annie was my first girlfriend. And my first girlfriend? My only girlfriend is... That's a terrible way to start. That's a terrible way to start. Yeah. Annie is my only girlfriend. And we... So I was quite a shy, sort of naive young man when it came to women. and so we were 20 when we met and growing up in a in a world of rugby you know very macho sort of environment where everyone takes the piss out of you for anything and one of the things that everyone seemed merciless a little bit like a episode of the in-between is you know when he gets a new friend and they're like oh friend friend it's a little bit like that if you got a girlfriend it was like oh girlfriend girlfriend so I was so nervous about being seen with a girl that I was like, oh my God, I've got to find somewhere where none of the players will see us.

5:14And so I chose a football club that was directly opposite the training ground in Wellford Road, thinking the lads won't go to the football club. I turned up, literally half the team were there. I was like, oh no. And I said to Annie as we went in, we literally stayed, didn't we? I feel so bad about this now. But as I went in, I saw them in the distance. I was like, oh, we'll just stay here. She was like, why don't we go over there? no, no, no, we get a better view here, a much better view. And as it transpired, as the fireworks all started shooting off, obviously the bits that come off the fireworks started landing all around us, and it was a disaster of a choice for me.

5:54But thankfully she decided to stay with me 28 years.

6:05And actually I should say, Sorry, this is going off on a complete random tangent. I'm sure none of you are here to listen about my early antics and girlfriends. It's a confessional school. It is a confessional. It is a confessional school, yeah. My brother-in-law, or Annie's brother Andy, is here as well. And on our stag do, I've no idea why I'm telling this, mate. I'm really sorry. Andy decided to come and join us. So it was like a group stag do. So myself, Will Johnson, Martin's brother, and Jamie Hamilton, we had this sort of group stag do. we all got together and invariably, you know, a lot of us ended up in sort of pants and downing all sorts of stuff.

6:42It was a fantastic evening. And we came to leave, we realized we'd done the bar or the venue was in the ground at Welford Road. And when we came to leave, it was sort of 11 o 'clock and no one had informed the ground staff that we were still there. So the entire squad had to try and find their way out and we had to basically climb over a high fence and Andy was a couple of drinks in and we were lowering ourselves basically down this wall. You had to climb over a small barbed wire fence and then lower yourself down the wall and Andy had forgotten after several beers that he'd had a small shoulder operation and I lowered myself down the wall and said, Andy, are you going to be all right?

7:31It's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll be fine, I'll be fine. All I heard, I lowered myself down. All I heard was, ah!

7:39His arm didn't work at all. It just, like, fell off the wall. You've probably still got the scar today, mate. But, look, it's lovely. I just want to start. I know Alex is going to dive into questions, and we're here to talk about the book, and I know you guys have kindly shared a load of questions as well. But it's really special for me. I've not done anything like this before. so I feel very privileged to be here and that you guys have given up your time on a Thursday to come out and be here and listen to my ramblings and nonsense about my brother-in-law so hopefully it will get better as we go along but thank you for coming obviously it's been a difficult time for my family over the last year but we'll get into that a bit more I just wanted to say it, it's really appreciated thank you

8:37I'll try and remind everyone at the end, there are books, pre-signed books. If you haven't already bought one, I would recommend a copy of it. We'll get into some of what Lewis writes about, but it is a fantastic book. It's moving, it's really thoughtful, the clarity of thought, how you've managed to... I guess it's lessons in life, isn't it, Lewis? you have an autobiography which you wrote when you finished playing, but this is a different book. Again, it struck me that there is a section in which you talk about the nickname that you've got as a player, as Mad Dog. And when you read this book, it's almost like it's not written by that character.

9:16And I guess the point you make is that that really was a character. It was, and I had a fantastic ghostwriter as well. you know again for anyone that knows me knows that if I had to sit down and put pen to paper and write it out myself would have been a very different book altogether and would have taken far longer I had a wonderful I had a wonderful ghost writer and Catherine Ormond and when we were interviewing for the book we sat down over 40 sessions we interviewed a number of people for it to sports journalists that I knew really well. They probably would have done a good, a great job. But when I met Catherine, she came from a totally different background and had a totally different perspective on it.

10:04And this book, so my first book was a genuine autobiography. It was about my early days and my rugby journey culminating in England captaincy and the disappointment of the World Cup in 2011. And this book is far from a rugby autobiography. In all fairness, when we started out on this, I didn't really know what it was going to be. I knew in terms of the idea around the chapter headings, the sort of journey experiences I've had and how I wanted to share those. But it's very much, you know, as it's sort of evolved, it's become a piece of self-awareness for me as well, you know, as hoping that it is useful for other people around understanding, you know, why when you're put in a position like me and my family are now and you're given a, you know, a life-limiting diagnosis, why are you able to deal with it in the way that you are?

11:01And as I sort of look back retrospectively on my life, I was fortunate, and that may sound like a strange word, that life provided me numerous opportunities where I got to experience adversity without really any choice. I was just thrust in my path. At the age of four, I developed whooping cough. My parents were given a phone call to say that I might not make it through the night and to talk to my mum about that and reflect on that. I obviously don't remember that. I have a memory of sitting in an oxygen chamber and just listening to my parents' voices, being strapped in a car seat, being unable to breathe.

11:41I don't know about you guys, but I tend to connect with feelings rather than actual physical memories. The feeling takes me back to the place. And from that moment onwards, life just presented opportunities for me to overcome various different things. And I don't know if I'm built any differently to anyone else. And I mean that. I mean that genuinely. I just feel that I've been given these experiences to get around. And dad had this saying, which at the time I was like, that's nonsense what you're talking about. But he had this saying, which was just keep on rowing. And as I look at it now and I reflect on it, what it means to me is that you find a way, right?

12:25No matter what happens in your life, whatever's put in front of you, you find a way. And I think that's all I've ever really, really done. I was diagnosed with ulcerative colitis when I was 24, 25. Do you want to know what ulcerative colitis is? Yeah, bowel disease basically. And it means essentially that being more than a couple of feet away from a loo or any given stage is an absolute nightmare because, you know, and you can imagine growing up in a rugby environment that, you know, basically, excuse my language, shitting yourself, you know, at any moment that you may or may not be aware of. you know it's not something that you're going to get away from you know there's in my head I was like there's going to be all sorts of nicknames coming my way like pooey pants and I don't know what you know because the the changing rooms are unforgiving place um but but that really you know the sort of the battle with colitis really is where I started to realize that I just had this view on life that nothing that was put in my way would stop me doing what I wanted to do.

13:37And what I wanted to do at that time was play rugby. So, you know, despite the fact that I could lose 10 kg if I had a flare-up, which, you know, was a relatively light rugby player anyway, was not. And you're playing people like Alessandra Tuolangi and Samoans and South Africans, and you need all of those 10 kg to compete. It was just, you know, lots of opportunities. as I said, you know, you suddenly realize when you're put in those situations that your human spirit is much stronger than you ever realize, I think. And as individuals, we are much more capable than we ever realize. But it's only if you're, you know, put in those positions or if you're prepared to accept those positions, you know, the sort of discomfort that comes with having to sit in front of 600 people and talk about pooing yourself.

14:27Or, you know, anything that gives you discomfort. And for all of us, it's different, right? But if you're prepared to accept it and still do it, there's so many learnings in that. And I just feel that, you know, sport afforded me those opportunities. And I find myself in this position now where it's not that you can overcome motor neurones disease in the sense that you can beat it. You know, the way that I overcome it is by gaining more information, understanding, you know, getting a bit of control back, the more people you speak to, the more information you can gather, therefore you feel like you have a bit of control.

15:06And I suppose all I've wanted to do since diagnosis is use my platform to have as big an impact as I possibly can in this space. And I can't remember what question you asked me now at the start, but I'm pretty confident it wasn't anything along the lines of where I've gone. But yeah, it's been a journey. Was it something about adversity? Well, loosely, it was about how thoughtful and self-aware the book is compared to the nickname and the character that you felt you were playing with. So I literally didn't answer it at all, basically, as we were saying. As a player who was known for throwing themselves into every challenge, that does sum up who you are.

15:56It sums up what we'll talk about this evening, and it did sum up your rugby, but then you felt it was also, it didn't represent all of you. Thank you for bringing me back to the point. That's a really good example because I think, you know, sport, rugby in particular, gives you the ability to amplify a certain area of your personality more than any other. And in that environment that is really, you know, competitive, really macho, you can be whatever you want to be and you can be that extreme version. So I could really pour myself into the game and the way that I played. But I can't live my life like that absolute lunatic that I was on the sports field, you know.

16:35I can't live my life, you know, sort of, well, you very quickly find out that one of the areas that I really enjoyed about playing rugby was the physical sort of contest, you know, the battle one-on-one contest, the physical contest between the opposition and you, you know, it might be Richie McCaw or George Smith or whoever. Where else do you get that? Nowhere. And I'm finding that more and more in retirement. It's been 15 years, but when I first retired, it was a real shock, you know, you can't just go and start tackling people through the fruit and veg stand, you know. That's apparently not okay now.

17:07So rugby provides this unique space where if you love the physical outlet that it is, and you thrive in it, which I did, it's quite difficult to then move on. But I suppose my point is that you're never one thing or another. I was, for want of a better term, mad dog on the rugby field, and I had to be to play in such a robust, combative, competitive environment and succeed or get any semblance of success. But I can't live my life like that, and I don't. And people are often surprised how relaxed I am off the field. You know, you have to have almost two personas. And there are great examples of that across all sports.

17:53But I think probably the greatest example for me was the Samoans that I played against or played with. You know, they were such kind, you know, almost timid people off the field. And then, holy shit. I mean you just can't I can't explain to you what it was like to play them, they were just beasts, they were awesome to play against but off the field they were just lovely, they're all about community and people and they wanted to look after you and protect everyone it was a cool place to grow up and have your formative years in a you know in that sort of sporting environment, in that rugby environment especially at Leicester are there many Leicester fans in the room?

18:34There's a couple. And cheering and booing. One waving frantically on their own over there. Hello. But yeah, it was as an 18-year-old public school boy that had only known the sort of the fruits of the public school sporting system other than touching briefly with Oakham Town. You're going to Leicester and meeting Darren Garforth, Richard Cockrell, Martin Johnson, Graham Roundtree I mean these were some tough, horrible, nasty human beings and I was like this 18 year old public school boy from Oka, I was like hello I remember to this day I walked into the changing room at Oval Park which is the training venue and still is of the Leicester Tigers and my school first team coach was a chap called Ian Smith, wonderful guy I played 300 games for Leicester.

19:34He said, when I finished school, finished A-levels, he was like, mate, go and do pre-season down at Leicester Tigers. So I wandered in. Literally, that summer, having been sat in the common room watching the 95 World Cup and Will Carling, Rory Underwood, all those guys with Joan Lome, who was destroying my cat. Didn't the Underwoods do a pizza commercial off the back of that? But so all of a sudden, I was transported from being that fan in the common room to being on the training pitch. And I walked through the door at Oval Park, and directly in front of me was Dean Richards, who's like sort of 6 '7".

20:12I mean, it looked like he weighed 95 stone, quite frankly, at the time. But he was huge, and he was one of my schoolboy heroes. I sort of walked in this like timid sort of public schoolboy, and I thought, I'm sure they'll be welcoming.

20:31Dean just looked at me and he went you theme changing rooms down that end son you're not in here and the only response I could think of was Mr. Smith sent me, I'm really sorry it was humiliating at best so I sat in the corner and got changed and then that actually I won't go too much into this story but at the end of that first training session, we used to do team runs. And for anyone that's played any type of sport, normally that's the day before a game and you go out and you run through all the plays so that you're prepared for the game itself the next day. And it's normally done at 50, 60%.

21:13But I got there and Dean was like, we're going on a team run. So in my head, okay, I was like, well, I don't know any of the moves. How am I going to go through? So we just actually went on a run. He just took us out of the ground and we ran up the road about 500 metres and we stopped and went in the pub. It's like, how different? Like 1996 to 2012 when I retired. It was so different. And we proceeded to stay in there until most people were sick. And I won't delve too far into this story, but I remember my last real memory is when Dean started drinking the sick and that was it. I decided, I decided.

21:57Yeah, I stayed there for 16 years at Leicester. I don't know what I was thinking. And if that's not delving too far into the story, God knows what the rest is. Yeah, no. I can't, yeah. Ask me, yeah, if you catch me on a quiet day, I'll share the rest of it about Austin. But yeah, anyway. On the theme of taking on challenges and adversity, that is an intimidating environment to walk into. a club who would probably beat each other up on the training field routinely every week, go out and then play together at the weekend, but the antics of the field, the personalities, the violence, it's not for everyone.

22:35No. I loved it. It's one of those things. I probably didn't look like someone that would love violence when I turned up, but that's definitely the wrong way of putting it because it's not... Like I tried to describe, it's really difficult. but it's just something about the physical contest that I love, the competition in particular, but especially in rugby. And when it was so combative, it's one of those sports, a couple of my sort of character traits are loyalty and protection. And so rugby gives you the opportunity to use your, well, the way that I played the game, use your body in a way that could benefit the team.

23:11You know, you can throw yourself in a ruck. You can dive on the ball and take your shoeing. You know, back then, you were physically allowed to move a player with your studs. You know, you could ruck him off the ball. My kids were watching, like, I think, a 96-97 video, and it was South Africa v Wales. And Gareth Thomas, Welsh centre, absolute brute of a man, legend of a player, takes the ball in. I think James Small spear tackles him into the ground on his head. Then two South Africans fly in to clear out the Welsh player. You know, it's like a clear headbutt. In the background, Jus van de Vesthaisen is knee-dropping one of the Welsh lads who's gone over the top of the ruck and someone else is getting punched and the result of it was that Gareth Thomas was penalised for not releasing the ball on the ground.

24:11trying to explain to my 16 year old son who loves rugby he's like dad was rugby really like this i was like yes mate fucking brilliant but the the training sorry i sometimes have a little bit of Tourette's and my swearing takes over in my exuberance. I hope you don't mind. But yeah, you know, Leicester in particular was a great place for me to land. It kept me grounded. You know, those guys, they were all superstars, you know, Rory Underwood, Dean Richards, Neil Back, Will Greenwood, Martin Johnson, you know, all played by the end of their careers, you know, over 50 caps on numerous occasions and to land in that team at that time, you know, there were no, they were all stars but there were no stars if that makes sense, you know, no one really was allowed to get above their station there other than Austin Healey obviously.

25:08You know, we won't talk about Austin too much but he's actually a brilliant, he's a brilliant bloke. But yeah, so for me, landing in that space was perfect. You know, training was brutal. It was brutal. You know, now a lot of the sessions, they're conditioned timing-wise. So the physicality or the contact nature of the game is really tailored into time zones. So you know specifically how much contact you're going to do at any given time. We could turn up on a Wednesday, which was a defense session. and it could go on for three hours and it would be one team against another but we all loved it and this will sound strange when I say it out loud but invariably if a fight didn't break out in training at some point we just didn't feel ready for the match at the weekend it's so strange I think that was due to the sort of competitive nature of that environment and it's not that other clubs like Wasps and...

26:15Well, I can't really think of any other decent clubs at the time, but, you know... Sorry. Just alienated 90 % of the audience. No, we had great games throughout those decades, but Wasps were, at that point in time, they were the toughest opposition, and they had a very different approach to playing the game, you know, with Lawrence and, you know, Josh and Fraser Waters, those guys that were sort of, it was more about the bravado and the, you know, but they found their own way of being very successful at Leicester. It was just different. But I enjoyed it. I loved it. And, you know, taking the back seat, again, seems absolutely bonkers, but was so much fun.

26:57I might have to explain what that is. So when you made your debut for Leicester, we would have a bus journey if it was an away game and invariably after club games back then you'd stay and have a drink with the opposition and you'd meet the fans it was really you know sociable and and we'd get back onto the bus and all the old players would sit at the back and the last sort of four rows and if you'd made your debut at some point during the journey home you would be asked when I say asked I mean instructed to get up and attempt to make your way to the backseat. No one obviously ever made it to the backseat.

27:40It was a futile exercise, really, because the point wasn't that you made it to the backseat. It was a little bit like, is it milling in the military and some of the services where two people are just picked and you go. It's not about who wins or loses. It's just about who throws the most punches, who's got the strongest attitude. That's all that was. It was about seeing who had what it took, you know, socially as well as on the playing field. But only one person that I know ever made it to the back, and it wasn't any of the forwards. It was one of the backs called Pat Howard. He was a canny Australian, and he sensibly just waited till all the massive forward muppets were fighting and wrestling and breaking the seats.

28:28and he just crawled under the seats. And he was just sat there at the back. It was like probably for 20 minutes before anyone even realised. Made himself a tee. And he was the only person that was ever, ever officially made it and was granted sort of safe passage to the back. But yeah, it was a wonderful environment to grow in even though it may not sound like it to a lot of you, I'm sure. What I think is interesting is we talked to guys like yourself about their playing days, you don't mention the titles that you win the success, the big days at Twickenham you won all those premiership titles, Europe it's the people and it's the moments along the way building towards that that are the most precious Absolutely I don't know for you guys sat in here today when you experience success in whatever form that's shows itself or rears its head in your line of work or in your world.

29:28But I always find that when you get to the moment of success, when you get to lift the trophy or you win a title or you have a good result, it's like the success is fleeting, like the sort of elation, the euphoria is fleeting. It's there for seconds and then it's gone. And I was in a conversation earlier, I can't remember who it was with, but they were like, when you reflect on winning, what do you look back on? What was the proudest moment of your success? I was like, for me, everything about the process, that sounds too wishy-washy actually. It was just about the training. The thing I miss the most about playing the game is the training.

30:09And it was the effort and the intensity and the stuff that sadly, none of you probably would have got to see because it happened behind closed doors. And that we did day in, day out. and it was nothing to do with the games. They were the byproduct of the effort that you put in. The guys that put in hundreds and thousands of hours and rarely got to play at the weekend but that prepared you for the match that you had huge respect for, who put as much effort and energy and sacrifice into it as any of us. You reflect on those moments and the silliness. Yes, the hard work and the effort and the energy that goes into it because that provides the exuberance or the disappointment at the end result, right?

30:55But equally, you know, the silliness that goes on around that, you know, there's a serious part to whatever we do. But just, I think, sport, above anything else, keeps you in a childlike state for longer, you know? And there's something beautiful about that for me. And for most people that know me will probably think I'm still, you know, in that childlike state, nearing 50. and I think there's something about the silliness of life that sport embraces probably better than any other jobs and probably because you have to and because you're a young individual but yeah I don't ever look I don't go into the room and look at you know the World Cup medal or any of the other medals or any of the other bits and the caps I don't look at that and have any sort of great connection with anything other than the memories of the effort and energy that went into doing it because that was so enjoyable.

31:46That's the thing I miss more than anything now is that you can't replace the training. You can't find that same level of collective effort. You can try and recreate it, but nothing ever gets to the same level. You mentioned the World Cup there, and your book is, if you were to encapsulate it, it's how you have learned all the lessons through adversity and challenge to get you to the place with the challenge that you have now, to help you be where you are now. I wonder whether 2003, and not the day itself, although that was a challenge for England, but as you just said there, when you look at the medal and you know what you achieved, whether it was all the setbacks along the way, the missed grand slams, the defeats that you felt, in the games you felt you should have won, that actually, I guess, that's why it matters so much.

32:47That medal that you've got at home is because of what it took to get there. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, there's something, we talk about it in the book, about the inevitability of failure in everything that we do, right? You know, it's just part and parcel. You know, perfectionism is not achievable. You know, and there's something about accepting, especially in sport, because you know, you know, at some stage you are going to fail. You know, it's just inevitable. and how you approach that and how you accept it, I think, and how you become at peace with it is a part of how you develop through that sort of journey.

33:18But in terms of 03, I think for me, certainly my greatest lessons in life have not come from my greatest successes. They've come from my greatest failings, you know, or greatest challenges or disappointments or setbacks or issues that I've had to address. And it was the same for us in 2003, for sure. you know, the group that I came into that side two years prior to it. You know, there was two failed Grand Slams. You know, there was all sorts of players that were in and around the periphery of that squad going into it. And I think they, you know, they very much had to learn the hard way. When I came into it, I was quite privileged because, yes, I played.

34:01The first game I played for England in the Six Nations was a loss to Ireland, which would have been a Six Nations or Grand Slam victory. We ended up winning the Six Nations, not the Grand Slam, so it still felt like success. And actually, in that group, I only ever really experienced the success of it. You know, it was a weird time. They'd had the disappointment, and I'd come in, and they'd take already all the lessons. Clive had gone on this. He'd had the sort of disappointment of the... Clive's first tour with England was also my first tour as a 19 year old school boy, a year out of school. And it was called the Tour of Doom, so I'll tell you how well it went.

34:44We lost by record scores to Australia, New Zealand and South Africa. And I didn't get capped. But Clive then went to the 99th home World Cup in England, Clive Woodward. Prepared to win. they were absolutely convinced they were going to win and they got knocked out by South Africa in the quarter final and that started a journey for Clive, a four year journey and as I said I came into it two years in he was an incredible man, incredible manager he was very clear on his goals actually Clive's great strengths for me that he recognised his weaknesses and just went about filling those void spaces in his knowledge and his experiences and expertise with people that were experts in their field.

35:31When you look at it now, it makes total sense. But everyone at the time was like, why has he gone from three backroom staff to like 40 backroom staff? Which we pretty much did. We had more backroom staff supporting the team than we had players at one stage, which people couldn't get their head around. It was nonsense. But Clive was like, if we get to the World Cup final and we're good enough to win it, I do not want any excuses in place that there's a reason that we could have won it. so he just did everything that he could. He was a genius. And we arrived in that final, and for those of you that have seen it, and I'm sorry that I've spoken so much about rugby during this, but it's taken up a big part of my life.

36:14I was on the bench in the final in 2003. I'd played in the pivotal game against South Africa, which we had to win to avoid playing New Zealand at any stage. and

36:30you know because we'd beat New Zealand twice prior to the World Cup away and at home but New Zealand in a World Cup right they're just they're incredible so the South Africa game was the pivotal match and we won that and you know go full circle to the final we all knew in the build up to that World Cup you know the preparation was spot on we'd won a grand slam we'd been unbeaten for 18 games on the bounce. We'd beat Australia, South Korea, New Zealand away and at home. We knew we could beat anyone that was put in front of us. And we arrive in that World Cup final and everyone on the day knows that, you know, Johnny Wilkinson's attempted 300 drop goals during the course of that tournament to that day.

37:11It probably wasn't quite that many. So in the dying moments, the last minute and a half, everyone knew that we were going to try and get Johnny in a position to kick a drop goal. What you won't have known is that we spent hours for months on end during pre-season camp, during the World Cup, preparing for every eventuality at the end of the game because we knew we were good enough to make the final even in pre-season, which sounds arrogant, but we knew. So it was about making sure no stone was left unturned. And so, you know, whether it was needing a try with minutes to go, whether it was defending our goal line, whether it was getting a drop goal.

37:55So come the last minute and a half, people often say, how nervous were you coming off the bench? Or how nervous were you receiving the line out that led to the drop goals? I wasn't nervous at all because we'd rehearsed it thousands and thousands of times. So you just literally dropped into a routine. And it's not like the most nervous part about playing international sport is being sat on the bench, because that's when you can't, there's no control, you're not doing anything. You're just waiting for your moment to get on. And I like to think that anyone's in that position that is a competitor and that is playing international sport believes that they should be on the field making a difference.

38:33And that's what I felt on that day. And so I remember going through the 80 minutes and then it went into extra time, Clive, you've got to get me on, get me on, I can make a difference. And then as it seesawed in extra time, you know, a point here, a point there, all of a sudden I had these like demons crawling up the back of my neck going, do you want to go on and be the person that gives England, that gives away a penalty and costs England a World Cup? I genuinely, that's what I was dealing with on, you know, on the bench. But, you know, those sort of intrusive thoughts are something that have, you know, been a part of my life at various different stages from a young man all the way through.

39:09So it's something I'd learned to deal with. So I was able to sort of repress it. We just sat there, kept myself busy, chatting to the coaches, going through the first phase calls that I needed to know to get on. And eventually Clive came over and he was like, are you ready? I was like, yeah, yeah, I'm ready. Get me on, get me on. He was like, are you nervous? I was like, a little bit nervous actually, yeah. But it's like, don't be nervous. Bearing in mind that all I was thinking in the back of my head was right whatever you do don't go on and give away any penalties this is what Clive told me as I was going to the field he was like mate don't worry you're set for this whatever you do one thing just don't give away any penalties

39:53and do you know what it was it was a good focus not that I wasn't thinking about it already but it set me up perfectly and and I don't know whether if any of you have seen the documentary I talk about this, but, you know, Johnny, everyone knows Johnny's going to go for the drop goal, including the Aussies. So in the build-up to the game, we had to, obviously, plan A, zigzag is what we called it, Johnny in a position to kick the drop goal. We had a plan B and a plan C, which was me and Ben Cohen on either wing, because if the Aussies congregate around the breakdown, because they're trying to get to Johnny Wilkinson to charge down the kick, then there'll be another opportunity to score on the two wings, because there'll be space out wide.

40:35And if you see the video, you will see me waving my hands frantically. I was like, Johnny! Johnny! He can't hear me. Johnny! I generally thought that was it. It was my moment. Here we go, guys. Thankfully, thank God, he decided to stick with his non-trusty foot, kick it with his wrong leg, and he still managed it. But to be on the pitch at that moment was, honestly, you know, one of life's highlights is meeting my wife and having our kids. But the thing that probably gives me greatest joy is to have been a part of that team with Jono and Clive was just super special. And Jono's reaction...

41:25in one word Jono's reaction to you being out there waving for the ball he said well he was asked this in the documentary someone said to him did you know Lewis was stood on the wing calling for a cross field kick he was like what a bellend

41:46fair point I think it's a fair point I'm grateful Johnny didn't kick it in all fairness because as as I was waving frantically all of a sudden the next thing that goes you know the brain always goes to the negative right I don't know why it is but it does you know whatever we do in life it tends to the first thing that creeps in is a negative so I'm already I'm seeing the opportunity I'm waving then the next thing I'm like now you've got to catch it I was like oh god where's he going to kick it I'm grateful he did and actually it couldn't have if you wanted anyone to have that moment Johnny worked so hard he was such a remarkable professional at such a young age you forget that he was pretty much the youngest person in the squad but the standards that he set for the rest of the players even the players that were much older were remarkable and you wouldn't have wanted that moment to fall to anyone else quite frankly you just wouldn't.

42:37How do all those experiences Muted clap, thank you. Prepare you.

42:48How have all those experiences, many more which we haven't touched upon which are detailed in the book, how have they set you up for the challenge you and your family are now facing?

43:01I think sport over anything else, you know, has There's just something about elite sport that gives you the opportunity and prepares you for these difficult situations. There's probably something about the individual as well. You know, I am always an optimistic, positive human being. Not always, sorry. Annie will definitely agree. Not always. Most of the time. Most of the time. But it's just an approach. It's a choice, you know. And as I said, I was afforded opportunities in my career and my life in playing and in retirement. that have meant I've been able to see challenges as nothing other than an obstacle to get around and figuring out a way to get around it.

43:43As dad would have said, just keep on rowing, bud, you'll find a way. So for me, that mindset, those experiences, those opportunities, some of those opportunities you have to embrace, right? You have to get in there and be comfortable doing it, even though it's hugely uncomfortable, the anxiety, the pressure. you know I think sport allowed me to view pressure as something that is performative you know that focuses the mind that allows you to be really clear on what you're trying to achieve and why you're doing it you know stress is this isn't just my language stress is something that's much more negative it's when you know the pressure becomes overwhelming you have too many things going on and then stress becomes jesus a lot of people drinking in here tonight it's empty though which is a wonderful sound I like the sound of that one so yeah you know those experiences have just afforded me opportunity you know colitis as well of course you know set me up in a way probably that has been has been truly beneficial but I think when you're given a diagnosis like this I don't know I'm only experiencing it so I can only say what I'm feeling, but I don't know why you wouldn't choose to, you know, use A, you know, use the platform that you have for positive influence to have as big an impact as possible, to choose to approach life with purpose and, you know, energy and positive energy.

45:10And the decision, it's the diagnosis itself. It's like everyone's doing it on purpose now. the diagnosis itself weirdly it gives you clarity because none of us know how much time we have on this earth we just don't right so i would i would have been say i would have been disappointed imagine walking out into the street and you get hit by a bus you don't have the opportunity that i have you know knowing that my time is is different my time on this earth is shorter potentially than many of yours, but that comes with, that brings with it a real clarity of action, you know, how I want to spend the rest of my days, you know, what we do together as a family, how we approach things, and that may sound strange, but it really isn't, it's just the way that my brain simply processes information and goes, what an absolute gift is the wrong word, but, you know, opportunity to go out and live however many years, months, whatever we have left in front of us, purposefully doing the things that we really want to do.

46:19So for me, that's the gift that I feel sport has given me, which I feel grateful for, I suppose. Thank you.

46:37Don't go anywhere. We'll have more from an evening with Lewis Moody in just a moment after this.

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47:23With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs, and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at goo.gle slash workspace with Gemini. That's goo.gle slash workspace with Gemini. Are your ad campaigns lighting up the dashboard, but not the pipeline? That's bullspend. And marketers are calling it out in dashboard confessions.

47:58My boss asked for results, so I opened my dashboard for the only positive-sounding metric I had. impressions. Cut the bull spend. See revenue, not just reach. LinkedIn delivers the highest return on ad spend of major ad networks. Advertise on LinkedIn. Spend$250 on your first campaign and get a$250 credit. Go to linkedin.com slash campaign terms and conditions apply. Okay, we have some questions here. Please keep them coming through. Put your name on it if you like. I'm trying to find the one. Here we go. so Lewis you've spoken a lot about the support you've had from your wife Annie we're here as part of my friend Matt's stag do stag do where's Matt Matt that can't be a first marriage you know you know As grateful as I am that you are here listening to me, I hope the night has some serious pleasures in store for you beyond.

49:07Thank you for being here. What has changed about how you think about marriage since your diagnosis? What advice would you give Matt? Matt,

49:20the only adversity he's been through is his hairline. Oh, wow. what advice would I give Matt? I do not, there was another question there. I don't think, correct me if I'm wrong, I don't think anything's really changed for us since diagnosis, other than maybe it's brought us closer, reconnected a little bit, maybe slightly differently as well. But, you know, people talk, as soon as I was diagnosed, people come up to me and talk about bucket lists, you know, what is it you want to do, and blah, blah, blah. and Annie was like, and I didn't really like the term bucket list because it's quite negative, isn't it?

50:01It's like talking about sort of death and the end and the inevitability, which we all appreciate anyway. So Annie was like, I came across this thing called the fuck it list. And then as we explored things slightly further, we came up with the naughty list. And Matt, I would heavily advise you to explore the naughty list with...

50:34And if I can give a serious answer to it, is one of the things I think Annie and I have been fortunate with, is that, and this is meant in the best possible sense, we are simple people. As in, we don't need big things. We are really simple. Life is simple. And down to the simple forms of communication, being open, being clear. There's a great expression I came across that clear is kind. The more information we share, the more people can do with it rather than make assumptions about how we feel and all those types of things. So definitely for me and Annie, the sharing of information. We don't always get that right.

51:15And we learn as we go. but that open sharing of information, Matt, will be invaluable in years to come. And you understand me? So, Les, you obviously not got married, is what I was thinking in my head. Where's he at? So he's not got married yet. Oh, no, I don't want to mention that.

51:37Sorry, we'll move on to another one. You'll love it, by the way. It's awesome, being married. You are a father of sporting kids. There's a question here about the process you had to go through telling Ethan and Dylan about your diagnosis and how difficult it must have been. Our guest here, my fiance who's here tonight, has recently been diagnosed with MND and went through the same experience. We watched your documentary together afterwards. How do you get through the difficult days as a family? That is a great question. Thank you for asking it. Thank you for being here tonight.

52:19How do you get through the difficult days? Do you know, I had a conversation with my therapist psychologist post-diagnosis, and she was talking to me, and I struggled with the conversations initially because I didn't see the benefit. And I said one thing to her. It was almost like talking therapy. Just the ability to chat about it was useful. And I said to her, sorry, she said to me, is there anything that you're not sharing with me? I was like, well, I feel like this, whatever I do, there's an underlying sadness. And you don't have to sort of scratch too much for the emotions and the sadness to come out.

53:05And especially when you relate that to your kids. and she said well have you accepted that it's a sad situation and I actually hadn't I hadn't sat with it and she was like it's okay that it is sad you know what you're experiencing is sad and you don't always have to fight it you can sit with that sadness but the key is to not sit with it too long, you know, not to go on a rabbit hole with it. You know, for me, the things that take me on a rabbit hole are music. So, you know, if I'm feeling that way, and I'm sure a lot of us in the room have experienced that, right? You're taking a dip, you're going somewhere, you might bang on Celine Dion, and it's only going to take you further down that road.

53:54But I mean that seriously, is that be aware, have an awareness of where and how you feel and that you're going that way and choose to step out of it and that's what she said it's like sit with it it's okay because it is sad don't don't fight it off because you know that's that's counterproductive accept it and then just choose to to come back to the moment and move forward and with the kids um i think again it's just that open conversation that open dialogue um if they want to know more i don't know if any of you've seen the documentary that we did for um for hbo but chatting to the boys, man, that was so cool because I had no understanding of what they would articulate or how they'd articulate it.

54:40And I'm grateful that we did the documentary because it provided a way to talk to the boys that otherwise wouldn't have had. And for anyone that's got kids in the room, you pick the kids up from school, the type of conversation you get is, mate, how was your day? That was good. Anything else? No. and that is generally what the boys like and so when I was going into these conversations like I don't really don't know how this is going to go but it allowed them to open up because they knew they had to talk it allowed them to open up really honestly with me in a way that we otherwise wouldn't have had that chance and it was so informative you know because Dylan was really reluctant to share if he was noticing my progression you know so my progression you know started in my shoulder continues in my arm and you can maybe see it in my hand and my forearm now it continues and if he sees it he didn't want to bring it up because you know he didn't want to take me on a negative thought process and I was the same I was like mate I don't want to talk to you about my progression because you know you might not have noticed it and we were just at that point where we're like talking more is okay it's like it's okay and it suddenly opened us up so I don't know if there's a clear answer to that question because we're all so different but for me that open sharing of information again and accepting that where we're at and some things in life are sad, just choosing to not go too far with that and come out, accept it, come out and find peace with where we're at, I think.

56:24A question here from Phil. Based on your own career and your diagnosis, what advice would you give to a father whose four-year-old son has just started playing rugby? I guess the inference there is, what's your relationship like with rugby? Is there a connection, do you feel, between the sport you played and the condition you have? Ah, OK. That was not what I took from that question. I'll answer your version of this. No, no, no. I'll answer yours, and then we'll come back to it. So I was actually, I was really, I was almost floored by a conversation with someone I had who just approached me in the street.

57:02And it was just a flippant conversation that they thought nothing about. They came up to me and said, you must be really devastated that rugby's put you in this position. And in my head, that was never a connection. You know, I am fully aware and always was that, you know, if you repeatedly get concussed or repeatedly hitting your head like a boxer, that the long-term prognosis for that, you know, isn't going to be beneficial. That I was totally aware of. But it really prompted me, that question or statement really prompted me to go and speak to the specialist. And in speaking to Martin, I said, mate, has rugby put me in this position?

57:42and Martin's been in motor neurones disease for 25 years. He's a specialist neurologist and he was like, Lewis, I can categorically tell you that rugby is not the reason that you have motor neurones disease. He said, I can't sit here and say that the concussions that you would have suffered or the head knocks that you suffered didn't have a part to play in it but equally I can't say that your genetics, your lifestyle, trauma, stress, all these things didn't add to it. There's never one reason that you are diagnosed with motor neurones disease or a neurological condition. There's multiple factors at play.

58:22And the fact that he could sit there and say that rugby isn't the reason that you have motor neurones disease was, I don't think it was a relief because it wouldn't have mattered to me anyway. There's no point in looking back. I'm where I am now and I loved my rugby career and I wouldn't change it for the world. but if it prompts more research and more study into it to find out what's going on. The only thing that he did say was that there is a connection or there's an understanding now that there may be a connection between extreme exertion, extreme sport and exertion and most neurons disease.

58:53But again, there's no papers, there's no evidence, there's just anecdotal sort of observations. So there's research and all sorts of stuff going ahead now. Just ask that question again. because there was something else in it. Phil's four-year-old son has just started playing the game. What advice? From your career, what would you say to the lad? Well, I would say as a parent, I'm probably, you know, I don't know what people would expect me to be like as a parent, having had the nickname as Mad Dog as a player, but I can assure you I'm probably the polar opposite of what you'd imagine. I'm completely quiet on the sideline.

59:31I see my role as a parent is purely to be supportive and encouraging. You know, I went through a conversation with my kids that taught me, you know, after every game and training session, I'd always ask them from the point of, you know, interest and wanting to understand, you know, how they were getting on, you know, how did you get on today, mate? You know, what did you learn? You know, how do you think you played? And I was getting less and less. And eventually, I had a conversation with a priest, which is convenient. And he'd written a book about parenting because of all the conversations he had in the confessional and everything.

1:00:11And he said, have you ever asked your boys whether they mind you asking them questions after the game? I was like, I haven't actually. He's like, well, try it and see what happens. So I did exactly that. and I asked Dylan, who's my eldest, who's now on his own professional sporting journey as a footballer, which was slightly disappointing initially.

1:00:36It wasn't. It wasn't. If anything, I watch more football now than I do rugby. So I asked that question to Dylan when he was probably 11 or 12, and his answer I suppose it surprised me at the time he was like so I said do you mind me asking you questions after games or training he was like to be honest dad I'd prefer you didn't because I feel like there's a pressure to answer it in a certain way and I was like mate that is wisdom thank you you know from that moment it was a step back and just allow them to enjoy the experience you know encourage them, you know, support them, but definitely don't coach them is my take on it, because they're getting all the coaching now be there as that sort of enthusiastic cheerleader no, not a cheerleader, that's because my mum was like on the sideline, it was awful we, we're going not awful but where am I going, come back to the point encourage them, it will be a wonderful sport, you know whatever he does with it he will enjoy it with a group of people he will learn social skills he will develop all sorts of things whatever sport it is, if it's rugby fantastic just encourage them to keep going We have a couple of questions on the same subject you mentioned the Samoans you played with you mentioned Alessandra Turlangi Is that the same subject?

1:02:12Same subject as your four year old No, we have two questions on the same subject related to... That is a complete misunderstanding. Where do you sit on Samoan children? Four-year-old Samoans. What about if my son was playing against one of them? I was like, absolutely don't go on the field. In New Zealand, interestingly, they have weight categories for age group because of the disparity in maturation points. that is a complete side note and we'll come back to the question there is a famous picture of Billy Vunapola at school where he looks like he's about five years older than all the other kids, he's almost breaking the school chair in the canteen, he's enormous compared to the others, no the question was about that day at Twickenham first one, what was it like exchanging punches with Alessandra Tuolangi and I'll just mention the second one which was about competitors.

1:03:14I can't find it. You worked with a psychologist after being sent off that day, after earning what Joe says was the badge of honour as England's first player sent off at Twickenham for fighting your club mate. It was fair. When playing day's end, how can we channel that ruthless competitive instinct into a force for good in everyday life? So basically, that day, that also international at Twickenham red card so to paint a picture for anyone that didn't see it I played with Alessandra Tuolangi at Leicester who was a 6 foot 4 19 stone Samoan absolute monster of a human being he could run 100 metres in like 10 seconds he was a winger he was just a phenomenal player and I was playing for England and Alex was playing for Samoa, and with about seven minutes to go in the game, the Samoans, they're ferocious players anyway, as I've sort of alluded to.

1:04:19You know, on that day, there was a few, you know, late hits, cheap shots, all sorts going on, and there was this sort of underlying feeling of unfairness brewing in me, you know, and I was getting frustrated, and I was a fairly emotional, you know, and I still am, I was a fairly emotional player. And it was easy to trigger me. And I think it was Charlie Hodgson putting a cross-field kick to Mark Cueto. Mark Cueto, feisty little man, Cunian, hell of a player. One of England's, well, it was England's top try scorer for a while. He leapt in the air, caught the ball. Alassane came in. So Mark's probably, I don't know, like he's probably 14 stone and 5 foot 9.

1:05:00Alassane, they're on the same position, right? Alassane's 6 foot 4 and 19 stone. And Quates goes up, catches the ball beautifully, and Alex takes him out in the air, which even in 2005 was still illegal. And, you know, so Quates comes down, literally lands on his head. And I was the nearest person to him. And as I said earlier, you know, I have a sort of fierce sort of protective loyal streak. And I was the nearest person. So I was like, I know Alex. He's a fiery, you know, competitor on the field. I know Quates. he's also a fiery Mancunian, but I also know there's a slight disparity in size, power, and I was like, I've got to get in between these two before Quates gets absolutely filled in.

1:05:47And I did, I jumped in, and my honest intention was that I wanted to stop anything escalating, I swear.

1:06:02What transpired was, as I jumped in, so already that sort of sense of unfairness was brewing. As I got in there thinking, I'll separate the two, yeah, be the peacemaker, Alex basically chinned Mark. So he just threw this little right hand jab that you couldn't really see on the TV and no one picked up and Quates like sort of recoiled and sort of rolled back onto the floor. and at that point I felt that I needed to interject and I threw I think roughly 30 punches. I think it's fair to say the red mist definitely descended and I had no idea. I certainly didn't consider myself a violent player. I was very physical.

1:06:51When you think of all the English players that have, you know, Brian Moore, Wade Dooley, Actford, Richards, Skinner. I mean, Teague. There's some horrible, nasty, hard... I was the first Englishman ever to be sent off. I was... I mean, maybe it is a badge of honor. I don't know. It's like, for a while... For a while, if you... Obviously, I've been retired 15 years now. if you put my name into Google so bearing in mind that I played with Leicester for 15 seasons we won 7 Prem titles, 2 Heineken Cups thank you 2 LV Cups obviously with England Grand Slams, 2 Six Nations, World Cup I think roughly those were the titles and if you googled my name despite all that and the fact that I played 71 times for England, 3 times for the Lions I captained England, I went to 3 World Cups as a World Cup winner if you put my name into Google you may think that you know a couple of tries some big hits, sidesteps you know some skill related stuff would come up no, all that came up was my fight with Alessana to a Lange so you know if you're going to be remembered for something but it did on a serious note it did genuinely teach me about you know I had no absolutely no awareness at that point that I maybe had a trigger.

1:08:22You know, there's a great movie called Anger Management, if any of you have seen it, with Ben Stiller. And I think one of my mates came up to me, or maybe it was Mark Spores. One of my friends came up and said, mate, do you think you've got an anger management problem? I was like, no, I think you might have an anger management problem. And, you know, the sort of twigs started to drop. And is that an expression? The twig started to drop. You know what I mean. The penny started to drop. And I sat down with a psychologist. And it was absolutely the best thing I ever did. Because for so long, so what I'd been playing, nine years at that point professionally, for so long I had seen dealing with your own mental mindset, headspace, your inner voice, not being able to deal with it as your own sort of, that's weakness in me is that I can't deal with that myself.

1:09:22You know, why should I need a psychologist? You know, that's nonsense. You know, I don't need a psychologist. I should be able to deal with all that stuff myself, of course. You know, as soon as I sat down with a psychologist, I recognized the benefit of, you know, being able to train your brain, you know. So he very quickly recognized that the frustrations that I had from, I think, 16 operations I had in my career, but I had a year and a half out prior to that Samoa game for various different reasons and injuries. And the frustration that I felt mentally, the physical manifestation of that was violence on the field.

1:09:58It was an inability to control your temper. But I didn't recognize it. And as soon as he said it, it was like, do you think those two are maybe related? I was like, yeah, that's probably true. He was like, so what are you going to do now? Because people, when you play, they've seen you've got a trigger temper. they're going to try and wind you up they're going to get stuck in what are you going to do so he gave me this sort of distraction technique which does not it's not anything special other than when you feel that emotion and that you know when we get that sort of rage or that inner turmoil building to whatever it may be it's normally something we can feel might be a raised heartbeat might be sweat might be sort of tingling sensei whatever it might be as long as you're aware of it that's all that matters and then he said is it helpful to then continue staring at the person that is causing that, you know, frustration and rage, or is it maybe helpful to look elsewhere?

1:10:48I was like, hmm, it's a tricky question.

1:10:54Obviously, you know, and he was like, and if you look somewhere else, where could you look? I was like, well, I suppose, you know, I could look at my captain. He was like, well, that's Martin Johnson. He'll probably be, he'll probably either angry at you or angry at someone else. So it's like, and then he was like, why don't you look at the ref? I was like, well, that makes sense. Yeah, look at the ref, because then whatever I do next, he will then be judging my next AK. So it was literally a simple distraction technique. It's like, be aware of the inner turmoil that's going on and then choose to take an action that will distract you from that next thing.

1:11:26And it was brilliant. So I went from being the most yellow-carded player alongside Martin Johnson in the premiership history at that point to not receiving another yellow card or red card ever again. and I played for another six years, seven years. So that was pretty cool. That was pretty cool.

1:11:53Can I just say, that is a really strange thing to be applauded for, just realising. Well done, you know. Well done for not being set off. Yeah. Question from Will. You are an inspirational figure to many. who was your inspirational figure growing up or while playing and who's been your most inspirational figure since your diagnosis wow um i think for any son your father is quite a pivotal figure so for me that's easy you know dad was um for one of their term the sort of hero that you idolized dad also was a hero in the in the in the actual sense you know as a 13 year old he rescued a baby that had got into trouble and fallen into a river and dived in you know saved him took him back to the house and to some friends and eventually got an award for doing so which i have that at home it's you know it's pretty much the only sort of connection i i have now with dad other than photos.

1:12:58So he was a literal hero to me. And in the book we talk about walking with grief, and I'm sure everyone in this, well, most of us in this room, if you haven't at some stage, we will obviously experience grief. It's a difficult thing to deal with. We're not prepared in this country. I mean, some of you may be much better prepared than I was to deal with the passing of a loved one. but I won't go into it here because I'm aware that it can trigger people in different ways. But if you want to, do read the book because I talk about it openly and in depth about my experience with Dad and how I found that and how difficult I found that and how I think I would like to have known more, I would like to have spoken more about death and what the end really looks like and is there anything I could prepare for.

1:13:50But yeah, so Dad was an absolute out-and-out hero to me. On the rugby field, heroes. Martin Johnson was my schoolboy hero. He was my hero as a captain. He's still a hero. I absolutely loved playing with him. Everything about him. We could not be more different as human beings other than the absolute love for competitive sport and wanting to win. When you stand alongside Martin Johnson, And for any of you that have met him, he's obviously massive and can come across very grumpy. And if anyone's seen this, I think there's a series of Star Trek. There's a sort of breed of Star Trekians called the Klingons.

1:14:41Yeah. So Jono's nickname was the Ferengi, which was a range of Klingon. Anyway, where am I going with this? I bloody love Martin Johnson and he's an imposing intimidating figure and this is a strange thing when I say it but Jono was the type of person there's a movie called As Good As It Gets with Jack Nicholson where in it he tries to pay a compliment and he's really he finds compliments really difficult and in it he tries to pay a compliment by saying to a woman that he's trying to impress he says the compliment he tries to pay is you make me want to be a better person or a better man, I think maybe.

1:15:21And it sounds strange when it applies to Martin Johnson, but being around him absolutely made me want to be a better rugby player. You know, just the aura, the essence of him, the effort that he put in, whether he was away with England, the Lions, as soon as he was back, he'd be into Leicester. He'd be on the fitness machine. He'd be setting the standards. He was no nonsense. He was just the most incredible human to have on your team. and as a captain, you know, just by the end of it, by the end of when he was captain of England, he would run those sessions. He was so intuitively aware of when we'd done enough as a team or when we needed to do more.

1:16:00Sorry, I'm going off, but Jono, my dad, Jono. Was there another facet of that? And since your diagnosis? Inspirational figure since your diagnosis? Well, since my diagnosis, everyone that I meet that is living with motor neurones disease, that has been living with it for a long period of time is inspirational to me because it affects us all differently. I'm a year in now and still my progression is limb-based, still mostly in the arm and this arm mainly, but to meet people that are at various different stages, seeing how their own strength and fortitude, their spirit, I talked about the human spirit earlier.

1:16:43When I meet people with motor neurones disease, I realize how vibrant the human spirit is and how strong the human spirit is and how much more capable it is than we ever realize. Because, you know, those individuals, they're doing all the hard yards. I'm afforded a platform, having been a sportsman, to be able to talk about it, to be able to use this space to talk, to try and make a difference. But I do that because of all those individuals that have been living with it day in, day out, unable to escape their bodies, unable to communicate, hug, touch. It's a horrible, horrible illness. It's not an illness, it's a disease.

1:17:19So when I meet people living with it, I'm in awe. I'm in awe of what they're capable of doing, and it gives me strength.

1:17:46Thank you. And there's, I think, John's in the room here today, who is another human being living with motor neurones disease. He is one of the most inspirational people. Told you. Don't clap. Don't clap. Don't clap. Thank you, though, but let me finish. I told you, emotions are always just under the surface. You know, when you meet people like him, you really realize, you know, what we're capable of, humans. really impressive individuals whose spirit shines through and John wherever you are if you're in here I'll come see you afterwards but thank you for providing me with purpose and inspiration as well everything that you've done I just want to take that baton from everyone that has been working so hard for so long and try and help move it a little bit closer and I hope that you guys in here tonight will join that fight with us.

1:18:43I hope you'll be a part of that going forward because there is so much hope in this space now, but hope is irrelevant without action, and action is nothing without outcomes, right? So I hope that at the end of this today, if nothing else, we've inspired a few of you to get involved in a little bit of campaigning and, I was going to say fighting, but I know that might take you in a different way to be taken out of context. but yeah ladies and gentlemen Lewis Moody

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