Do England have a culture problem?

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1:20Hello, welcome everyone to The Ruck, the rugby podcast from The Times and Sunday Times. Test week, the first one of November, is upon us. Alfie here, along with Alex, Will and Owen Slott. All right, fellas, how are we all doing? Hello. Well, we're all a bit stunned, aren't we? The bonfire night last night, and Slotty's coming in with firecrackers. I like the way you did that.

1:40Owen Slot: Yeah, very good. I tweeted it as well, just so it's like using the joke twice. Yeah, so is there like a metaphor of Steve Balthwick, the guy on the top of the bonfire? Well, you can tell us, mate. What have you done to him? Well, shall we tee this up? I was going to say, we'll be at the England training base shortly, reacting to the team to take on the Wallabies. Will has spoken to the former Australia winger Nick Cummings, the Honey Badger, so that's on the way, entertaining listen. Before that, though, we're in the pub because yesterday, Slotty, readers of the Times will have seen online your article come out.

2:15The title being England Stars Lost Faith in Steve Borthwick this summer. Can he win them back? Do you want to just kind of explain what you found out, what you've been looking into and what you've learned about some of the culture behind the scenes of this England team?

2:28Owen Slot: Yeah, I've obviously been following and watching England ever since Steve took over. sometimes closely, sometimes not half as close as you guys. And I suppose over the last three years since the World Cup, you start hearing things about what it's like inside. The big red flags obviously were Felix Jones and Alain Walters going, which was preceded by Kevin Sinfield trying to resign but being persuaded to stay. That's the unsatisfactory history to this, which was never really addressed or answered. And then I suppose I've had a few people saying to me that things are not good in the kingdom of Steve Borthwick.

3:14Owen Slot: And I haven't really wanted to believe it, to be honest with you, because I really wanted him to work. I think he's essentially a really decent guy. And I think I really believe that England being successful is something that he feels genuinely passionate about. I think his heart is in the right place. but I think the more that time has gone on and critically the more that the pressure has turned up on him the worse that he's responded to it and I think we've seen increasingly that his ability to be a leader and a man manager is limited, is flawed and that when the pressure goes up then his performance gets worse and he transfers pressure onto the players and he takes power away from the other coaches because he feels he needs to be in charge of everything and the result is, the product of all that is kind of what we saw in the Six Nations at the start of the year and then he sort of wriggled through it in the summer but I was hearing from post-summer tour that actually the environment around the team was worse than ever and then it got to the point in Argentina where the players got together and said, listen, this is, you know, enough's enough.

4:34Owen Slot: We need to go and have a clear-of-the-air meeting. I don't know if showdown meeting would be too strong because there's like slightly differing versions of quite how mutinous it was. But it was definitely a we've had enough of this and we're not going places with this. And it was definitely Bill Sweeney's in town and we quite like him to be in on this as well. I guess, I don't know, Alex, Will, Will, do you guys want to come in here? Yeah. What does this mean for England right now, I suppose? We're looking at this at the start of November. Where do you want to take this conversation? Well, weirdly, I was just chatting to someone else on my way in here that you've got a head coach who came through a review from the Six Nations, which backed him.

5:17Then he went through a summer with two wins out of three. And yet we're entering the autumn and it still feels like England have to beat Australia or he might be sacked, despite Bill Sweeney's unequivocal backing, despite the review that followed the Six Nations, the public pronouncements are all of support for the regime, and yet it doesn't feel like it's actually meaningful. And it's interesting, like Slotty said, he follows England from near and far. We had been hearing similar tales, particularly from the summer, again, differing versions, which really confirmed what we'd said when we were out in Argentina of he's a head coach under pressure.

6:00He's a head coach who is selecting in order to protect his job. When we look at this week when we thought Finn Smith might not make this game, what was the big conversation? It was, does he pick Marcus Smith at 10 or does he pick the safe selection of whom he might trust more in order to try and get England over the line? and that's where it feels this is all... In George Ford, you mean? In George Ford, yeah. That wouldn't be a form selection. That would be a safe selection. Now, it hasn't come to pass. We don't think we'll get the team shortly, but we think Finn Smith's going to be fit. So that actual conversation is irrelevant this week other than being indicative of where England are and that the pressure is huge.

6:48And can the conversations that followed the summer, and there were some, I think Borthwick tried to make right over the summer. They got senior players together. They tried to come together on the same page, create alignment so that they could use what happened as a way to move forward. The challenge we've got is how glued is all of that? If Australia can bring some pressure on Sunday, who is everyone playing for? How aligned are they? How often do we hear of England players talking about how much they love playing one way and then they turn out on a Saturday or Sunday for England, they're playing a different way.

7:24There's a lot about the England set-up that doesn't talk or speak of alignment to me at all. And the fallout from the summer, the pressure being brought down onto the players are all examples of that. I've got loads I could say about the Felix Jones thing, the Joe Lewis example that you wrote about Slotty and the wider management of a boss who evidently hasn't learned from one error because the mistakes are repeating. So when I read your piece, Lottie, and through all, I guess, all of Steve Borthwick's tenure, really, the one word that keeps coming back, I think, when you talk about him is whether or not he's got enough empathy or sympathy, whichever way you use that phrase.

8:16And if we linger on that Joe Lewis example that Alex has just referenced. Do you want to just explain that in case people aren't aware? Sticking to the facts of what you've written in your piece, Joe Lewis, who was the England analyst, had a tragic incident where his father passed away. Father-in-law. Father-in-law, apologies, yeah. He then requested for some time away to get his head back in the game, really, and within 48 hours was being asked for analytical clips. Is that basically the price? Yeah, pretty much it, yeah. so and that's not an isolated incident

8:52Owen Slot: of lacking empathy and that was the catalyst that that encouraged him to or that was the thing that that was the straw that broke the camel's back for him and he handed in his resignation after that whereas it looked like he'd been recruited by South Africa to then be signed by South Africa yeah he quit and then was signed by South Africa and again you referenced it in the piece Ben Youngs has written in his own book that Steve Borswick didn't have a lot of empathy when he and his family were going through a difficult time there have been other situations like this and what I find interesting around all of it is that we have always known that Steve Borswick's one of his key flaws I guess has been this area the soft skills he is obviously a fantastic details analytical coach but the one thing he's never been good at whether he was a player or a coach at Leicester Tigers or an assistant coach with England or everywhere he's been he hasn't had a huge army of friends and supporters and he hasn't had a huge obvious amount of human sympathy and human empathy and so what I find interesting is that if everyone knew that throughout this whole process why have there not been people installed around him who can help who can help him with that because I thought that would be Kevin Sinfield would be that guy who could be the arm around the shoulder the positivity dude and maybe Conor O'Shea's a bit like that but the problem with Conor O'Shea is that he's sort of meant to be his boss he can't be the positive vibes guy I don't understand that Conor isn't Conor's job is head of professional rugby pathways he doesn't have any responsibility for the senior men's team and until he's put forward to go on a podcast and talk about the senior men's team but so to I guess to drill into the point I was making after Felix Jones after Alan Waters quit to join Ireland and then Felix Jones followed him out with no job to go to.

10:43That was, to me, at the time, all of us, because we spoke about it, that was a red flag about the way that the environment is. But who is saying to Steve, listen, you've got to realise what's happened here. This can't happen again. This is a failing, frankly. But is that coming from Bill Sweeney, who's his direct line manager? Evidently not. Connor is sort of floating around, but he's not Borthwick's line manager. But then as Slotty's written, he's now sort of been pushed back into camp to kind of inject a bit more life into the thing, right?

11:14Owen Slot: Yeah. I mean, I think in answer to who's telling him to, you know, to change your ways a bit, learn, I think he's getting that information quite a lot. So he's got Kevin Sinfield, who he's sort of the culture guy. He's got Richard Smith, the QC. Now, whether you think that's an appropriate person for the job or not, but he's got him right next to him. And from what I gather, he's going around trying to put out fires and mend wounds and tell people he didn't really mean that and what have you. And I think also in Steve, you've got a guy who knows, you know, he's a sort of learner by intent. And he knows I'm not good at this and I need to be better at this.

11:54Owen Slot: So my conclusion is that he is who he is. And under pressure, he will revert to that guy and he will be the same guy. And you can't change him. You can put all this stuff in around him, but when it gets really tight, when they start losing matches and he's worried about his job, which he worries about a lot, then he reverts to tight. So when I was asking around about this and looking at that Argentina week in particular, because at that time the players had played back-to-back test matches, they'd flown all around the world. It was the last week of the season and he drilled them incredibly hard that week.

12:30And when I was asking around about it, from Borthwick's perspective, he was he felt that was necessary because he wanted to dispel the idea of excuses of we're tired we've been on these flights we've got beaten up by South Africa had to go to Liverpool all these extra flights that the players didn't want to do they wanted to land in London from South Africa and play in London but they ended up going up to Liverpool then they wanted to land in Buenos Aires and play in Buenos Aires not have to fly again there was lots of reason for excuses And so what I was told that one of Borthwick's decisions was to drill them really hard.

13:04So they had to work hard so that they would then deliver this performance on the field and they battled to a victory. That's the kind of pro Borthwick perspective on it. But the players just felt he's drilling us because he knows that if England lose, he's under pressure. And so whether it was intended in a positive way, that's not how it was received. by the players and then you that's where you have this divide split disagreement whatever word you

13:36Owen Slot: want to use yeah as soon as you have players thinking that they're playing to save the managers or the coaches job you know are they playing to to win for for their country and for their pride or or is this all happening because he's scared that he's he's next on the block then you've got a problematic environment you know to say the least to link to a point that you mentioned will of this is no secret in terms of we all know what Steve Borthwick's strength is and it's the the tactical detailed coaching side it's not the softer human side of things like everyone seems to know that about Steve Borthwick why hasn't this been flagged earlier there have been enough Six Nations reviews and reviews into bad England campaigns that is this not getting brought up in reviews so what why why has it not come up previously um yeah i guess they haven't drilled into it far enough i mean in my piece i also write about the review that you know the bigger review if you like which they did after the six nations when they lost four out of five worst six stations ever etc and and and i just i just think that the rfu should have learned by now that that the kind of review that they were conducting which is getting the players in and interviewing them even though they promised them anonymity and they tried they tried to make the the environment as as easy and encouraging for them to be honest I think they should have learned by now that that players just don't want to engage like that because they're they they're worried that if they say something one there might be a leak now you think they probably shouldn't be a leak but if if Steve's then reading a reading some feedback and and he'll and it's an anonymous player saying something the chance are he might recognize it and and and they know that if you criticize the regime then the guy under pressure might decide he doesn't want you around anymore that's I mean there's history of that it's fascinating isn't it I don't think if we can just finish off on this to bring it back to originally what we were talking about the culture in this England team how how big of a thing is that that Steve Borthwick has to wrestle with and get right for this month he's been given the backing from Bill Sweeney, from Conor O'Shea.

15:48They say he's taking them through to the World Cup and we're going to get on to building up to the Wallabies game in just a second. I'll jump in quickly because I know Will's about to answer. One of the things that we learned from when the 2003 players came into camp was how they clocked very quickly that there were issues within the leadership group and that was during the Six Nations, worst ever Six Nations. I think there There was a slight, there was a problem, not of his deliberate creation, but Maro had been away dealing with family issues. Then he got ill and he was supposed to be the captain, but he wasn't, he was worrying about himself, his own form, wasn't playing too well.

16:29So it's hard, he found it hard to impose himself. And there were issues within the leadership group, which elite former players who've got a nose for these things picked up on immediately when they were in camp. so if you were to kind of boil it down to journalists there's a split in a leadership group definitely friction division not antipathy don't hate each other but just coming at things from different angles and that was something that was made very very clear to Borthwick on that day this is something you need to fix and then Morrow then had the summer off I think it was the right decision ultimately although that's a whole other conversation but he feels better for it So Borthwick needs to, and this was the conversation he had over the summer, trying to get this alignment, get everyone working together.

17:16But that also comes down to the players, to Will's point. And my sense is that someone like Oli Chesson is going to be massive for England this autumn. Because he's the kind of character who, sort of Jono-like, can knock some heads together and get everyone on the same page. So that, for me, it's going to come down to that leadership piece. And Borswick needs to work on that. But it's also the players need to park any vested interest, any ego. Because ultimately, they're the ones who have to deliver it. I used an E word earlier, empathy. And I think there's another good E word for this coming up for England is empowerment.

17:59I think that's also another thing that Steve Borswick hasn't been very good at. He needs to get good at very damn quickly. Because I think you don't have to be a genius to look at the England team and what they've delivered under him to say that doesn't look like a team that's delivering the absolute best of itself all the time. And the best of its individual talents. And they've done it in tiny bits and they've not done it quite a lot. And so that's why I think Sunday is so fascinating. Like is Finn Smith empowered and is Lee Blackett's back line empowered to play the way they want to? they clearly want to which is moving the ball getting Manny Faber with both his hands on the ball using Freeman off the wick like not kicking box kicks and boring the hell out of everybody like they did in Italy they clearly didn't want to play that game despite what they're all having to say publicly that well now we're sticking to the plan what do they do in France immediately move the ball wide all that jazz and can they also empower someone like Ollie Chesson to sort of push into that leadership group properly and start rattling some cages like I think the way that he has been acting as Leicester Tigers has been fantastic and even to the point where he's calling players out on the field live like he absolutely eviscerated Will Wan the other night at Bristol for making an error and you think kind of want to see that if things are going to crap in the game on Sunday I think England fans and lots of us will would like to see someone like Ellie Chesson being like, live on the field, that is not good enough.

19:28We don't accept this. It's accountability. If you just think of some of the conversations that have come out from senior players as much as the coach over the last six months, they're now pushing this stat that when they have 15 men on the field, they're the second best team in the world. When they have 14 men on the field, they're the ninth best team in the world. It's such a short time. They've got 15. It's not a big data set when they've got 15. The conversation you had with Ben Earl in Rome after the Italy game where he's like, well, we were great for an hour. If the game finished off for an hour, we'd have won.

19:59And when we're in Johannesburg and the 17... We rattled the box for 30 minutes. 17-0 down in 12 minutes. But the players' narrative is, well, for the next hour, we match them. Yeah, but 17-0 down in 12 minutes. It's all these things like... Sorry, that's not all the players, though. Because we've kept saying, Finn Smith, and he did it again on our pod to preview the Prem, worrying signs if we revert to Typhoon in the autumn. But that comes back to the point of the leadership group, Finn is in that leadership group of approaching this from different angles. So if you've got Finn going, lads, this isn't good enough.

20:32We were decent for an hour, but we were 17 or down. This is not good enough. Then you've got other leaders going, well, weren't we great for an hour? That's the kind of division that I'm talking about. It needs a much more aligned attitude that forget being really good when you've got 15. If you spend most of the game with 14, that is irrelevant. None of that's good enough. You can stop pretending that lots of it's good enough. It isn't in the round good enough. Well, plenty of questions for this England team this November. We'll get to the team news in just a moment. Slotty, great to have you back on.

20:59Appreciate you joining us.

21:00Owen Slot: Thank you for having me. It was an exciting little conversation. It was. You don't fancy coming up to the England team base and seeing your mate Steve? Well, I'm going to see him on Sunday after the game, so I'll leave it to them. But just to finish off, where do England go or how can they get out of this hole? I just think Alex and Will have just kind of said it. It's about empowerment and it's about taking control of themselves and responsibility. And I think in their heads, they want to do that. But more importantly, in Steve's head, he wants to encourage that. Like Steve talks about the sort of game he wants to play.

21:37Owen Slot: But when the pressure comes on, then he starts to direct them and tell them what he wants them to do. And he starts to direct the game, how they can play without losing rather than with trying to win. So less of a Lee Blackett game, if you like. And so I think that's his challenge. And I think we've got to the point where you wonder, well, can he actually operate that way? And we'll find out, won't we? This is a proper podcasting gear change after a heavy chat on the culture of the England team. But we will get to the squad selection in just a moment for Sunday's game. Before that, Will has had a chat with Nick Cummings, the Honey Badger, the former Australia winger, about the game on Sunday, the World Cup next year, and also his travels around Australia.

22:22OK, on the ruck today, we've got a special guest. Formerly, he's known as Wallabies wing Nick Cummings, or former Wallabies wing, I guess, but you probably know him as the Honey Badger. Welcome, Nick. How's things? Mate, it's fantastic. It's bloody terrific. And, mate, getting sunny days over here in WA Australia. So, mate, we're bloody can't be complaining. yeah you've got a pretty cool background for those of people who can't see you explain where you are well actually yeah well believe it or not we're doing it we're at a caravan and we are traveling around australia a whole lap of australia now australia is enormous i've come to work that out and uh we're at a beautiful caravan park uh just near the near the coast there the kids buddy have a swim in the salt and they come back and carry on and then um yeah mate listen to the birds in the Arvo.

23:11It's a beautiful spot. Amazing, so whereabouts in Aussie are you and where have you been already? Yeah so we took off from the Gold Coast where we live and we've gone up the coast of it to Rockhampton, gone in through the guts to a couple of big stations and farms out there to do a bit of work, mustering and doing some work in the yards. That's been an eye-opener, a lot of fun, tough, hard work. Geez, they work hard, those roosters. And then, mate, yeah, just cruised across, did the, it's called the Gib River Road. It's a big one. It's one to tick off. It's like a bucket list, you know, trip. Your car and your van, things shake and things fall off and wheels get punctured.

23:56It's quite an experience. There's, you know, little crocs around. There's animals everywhere hit the coasts in Broome and now we're cruising down the coast and we've already got down to Perth and then we'll uh we'll go along the bottom in the next couple of months okay so a bit of that journey that I have done is the Great Ocean Road but you're probably miles and miles and miles away from that right now yes yeah so that's down now you're Vic isn't it and um yeah South Australia like Adelaide to Melbourne kind of yes yes perfect beautiful beautiful drive yeah it's incredible so what's the reason for the trip is it just your adventuring spirit or you're doing it for your kids or why are you traveling around the whole country mate i'd do it if i had five lifetimes i wouldn't be able to see the whole of australia you know it's uh it's a beautiful big place and mate we yeah we just think it's healthy for the kids to get out and while they're young and they're not not in school yet so i can take them out and take them out fishing and catch our tucker for the night and cook it on the coals or uh mate yeah we i just want to give them a natural upbringing you know as best we can because it's a it's a crazy world mate any scrapes along the way like you're you're a man of the outdoors you know what you're doing out there but i imagine someone like me from a big city you probably find some pretty scary animals knocking around like if you had any scrapes anything go wrong so far mate yeah we've uh well i don't think you you escape without some kind of strange, bizarre encounter, whether it be with animals or your tyres, your inflatable boat that blows away in the wind and you've got to swim after it, but it's blowing away faster than you can swim.

25:36There's a whole lot of things that happen and a bit of luck will get you through. But yeah, lots of animal encounters where you think they're, no, that's not a venomous one. No, actually, yeah, that's one of the top two most deadly in the world. I was going to say, what about the people you've met along the way? Imagine a different type of person who lives out in the outback in Australia than in the big cities. Mate, you get the whole kettle of fish. You get some strange cats. You get some just good, honest, hard-working Aussies that are just the salt of the earth. They're just what make the things tick.

26:13They put Tucker on your plate. They don't complain. They've got good character. They've got good yarns. And they just fair dinkum straight up and down. You know, you go everything in between. And do you get a good perception? Like, I was thinking about this from our perspective. I feel like you're sort of the Aussie Joe Marler. Like, we've seen him get into the celebrity world, go on celebrity traitors and do TV adverts. You've done the Bachelor. I'm a celeb, TV adverts. Do people recognise you more for that stuff than the rugby these days? Oh, it depends. depends on the age group definitely strangely enough the older women it's from the undies the tradie undies the adverts yeah those ads I do which is sort of awkward but you know okay cool and then you've got yeah so rugby is the main one out in the country it's mainly rugby out in the middle of the country and then on the coastlines yeah it's more TV shows I think that's probably what they watch more so it's everything mate absolutely everything how did you stumble into that world because i was looking at through your kind of rugby stuff and with the wallabies you only actually played for for the wallabies for two years which kind of passed me by i thought you were there for so much longer than to play two couple games against england that we can talk about in a bit with the game this weekend coming but how did you sort of transition in because i know you did the japanese stuff you did a bit of sevens didn't you so you're playing rugby for a long time but when did this sort of like post rugby career that you've developed blossom I suppose well it's the thing it's the the best way to go about it is it's it's too too much of a a change at the one time if you just go from just going cold cold turkey you just go rugby and then bang into that it doesn't it doesn't never it never works like that you need to see if it works for you and you you know there was I had a few um luckily I've I had a few gigs a tradie undies gig and a couple of shampoo gigs.

28:16The locks were out and the management said, hey, you need to get a shampoo sponsor on board for sure. I was like, well, why not? So I just had a crack. It's more about just having a crack at it and if it did work, it did. I didn't care really at the time but geez, it turned out to be bloody good. I think, mate, just a couple of post-match interviews, playing a bit of good footy at times helps. And then, yeah, buddy, just buddy getting a mark set, mate, and throwing your hat in the ring. And if they tell you to bugger off after a while, then you bugger off, but I'm still here. Yeah. Do you look back at those post-match interviews that people can find on YouTube with the quick quips and things like that and laugh at yourself?

29:00Or is that still how you are now? Like you were a young lad at that point, weren't you, just having a laugh? No, well, yeah. Yeah, I was having a laugh. But also, like, it's what I grew up with. You know, it was definitely, definitely, you have a laugh with it. and some of the boys were like, oh, yeah, can you, like, randomly, they'd say, oh, can you throw this one out there this time? I'm like, mate, I don't know, I've got a game to play. But, yeah, no, then obviously most of those sayings, I grew up with them with my old man and his dad. So granddad was always throwing things out, and I was just like, I wish I could bottle all that up, and then we could put that straight into the school system, and then we can teach our kids a bit about the culture as well, you know, keep it alive.

29:39Yeah. But, yeah, it's funny, mate. Yeah, I was having a laugh, but having a good time too, you know. I just loved it all because you sort of jeet up after a game. You're like, yeah, you know. But I can see people might look at that as, look, he's not the full bucket of chicken. Like, he's a bit, you know, your screws or whatever loose. But at the same time, who gives a rat's bluer? You know, you throw it at him, have a bit of a laugh and move on. Yeah. what was your favourite one you tucked out there? I didn't mind. There's a couple. There's a fine line because in this day and age, back in the day you can get away with a lot more.

30:19But now, if I said, you know, as full as a fat laddie's sock, which was a common one back in the day, it's not trying to be offensive. It's just describing the sheer capacity of a situation. But yeah, so I didn't mind the kid that fell out of a tree. He just wasn't in it. I thought that was a goodie. Nice, nice. Yeah, absolutely. And I think people appreciated the quotability. We needed a bit of that, yeah. Let's talk about some rugby. So particularly, I guess, your Twickenham memory. 2012, scored your first international try. I just watched the highlight of it. And Nick Phipps with a dart and then you on the right wing.

31:02and the commentary said at the time it was the first Wallabies try in three tests which feels like that would never happen these days that a team wouldn't score a try for three games. What do you remember of that day? Especially with all these really high scoring games we've got going on of late. But yeah, mate, it was a cracker. I tell you what, Twickenham Stadium. Take your hat off, buddy. Sing your swing lows and whatever it is you swing. But that stadium there is an absolute cracker. you got they're right there i remember thinking i can feel the sound waves hitting my body as this as the the the song that as a crowd would sing these songs i could feel it hitting me from different angles i was just like wow what a what an experience you know and and uh yeah it was 80 something 83 000 or whatever there that day um which is a pretty good pretty good show and uh Yeah, buddy, I think the Pommies kicked.

32:00Curtly Beal got it at the back. He gave it to Nick Fibbs. Fibbs had a run. I think he beat one, and then he sent it across to me. Buddy, basically wrapped this thing up. I'm going to put a bow on top of it and just placed it on my chest. And, mate, just, buddy, I just, buddy, hit two turning and two burning. Because it's been a drought, and you're right. It's been a few tests before, you know, last try. I thought, there is no way in hell I'm not crashing over for a meaty in that corner right now. So I bloody hit the afterburners and launched myself over there. I was stoked. And looking at that Aussie-England rivalry, it's come through most strongly through cricket, hasn't it?

32:39Through the ashes and everything else that everyone gets up for every couple of years. But rugby union-wise, do you feel like it's still that mega rivalry for both teams? Mate, well, I think it is. And we've got a very different team these days. The average age is 26 or 27. They're young roosters, but they are good. They're bloody fit. They're strong. They're sharp. And in saying that, though, it's going to be a real tussle. I reckon in front of a home crowd, the English are going to be up for it. And it will be quite a hard day in the office. The English, they're very physical. They're big units.

33:20No, I do look forward to the tussle. I think it's Australia's, you know, went off to a cracking start there with Les Kiss. And, mate, you know, you saw, I think we had five or six in a row, seven in a row wins. And then playing the All Blacks, Eden Park, we got dusted there, which was a good reality check. And then, you know, coming back with this English test will be another cracker that we need because we need to get the swords sharpened for when this Rugby World Cup, the biggest Rugby World Cup that has ever happened, when that comes around. The world's coming to Australia and we want to play all these teams, get our swords and sharpen our ducks in a row and then when you lads turn up, we go to war and then we have a beer afterwards.

34:13Yeah, because that game, it'll all get thrown up because someone will lose or whatever, but it looks at the moment that Australia or England could be one of the quarterfinals in Sydney. I mean, how good would that be? Aussies hosting the World Cup, England in the quarterfinal, that's going to kick off, isn't it? Mate, if it is, you and I will go to the game and we'll sit there, we'll put a personal bet on, we won't disclose that to anyone else, and that'll be an absolute build-up. And I do agree. I think, yes, a quarterfinal showdown is very possible between the two powerhouses there. And, mate, what a game to be a part of.

34:53I'll tell you what I'm looking forward to. There's one in Perth that's a... I think it's Scotland Island. Imagine the kilts walking down the street, the bagpipes, the violins, the bloody... Just that explosion of colour. You know, that's what it's all about, though. Like, what's your second team? Well, as a journalist, I'm neutral on everybody. and I find equal pleasure in supporting all teams Nick you know that come on dodge that one pretty well but um no very good I think I think generally fans would probably say they're like the Pacific Island teams always get people jumping don't they like people like seeing Fiji go well there's going to be some cool new teams aren't there like Hong Kong China and And the Spanish are coming back.

35:41And Uruguay and Chile have been decent in other World Cups. So there's some fun, smaller teams to get excited about too, I guess. Yep. And great way to build. Great to see Hong Kong. I think it's actually Hong Kong-Australia is the first match. So that will be awesome for Hong Kong. Good for rugby, for the growth of rugby. And, yeah, mate, I think that's one of the really cool things that are in the new way the Rugby World Cup are approaching this is they've got these outdoor training facilities where you can actually come up and watch these blokes. You can stand next to these blokes and they're doing their stretches and they've got their little whiteboard out.

36:21They're going through some strategy. You can see the size of their calves are like this big and all the kids are like, wow, look at these big units. And they watch them. They can play a bit of warm-up even at times when the other teams allow it. and that's what a way to bring the next generation through and build excitement in rugby absolutely yeah I was last couple I was thinking you're going around the country trying to get your kids to fall in love with it as a country what about getting the country falling back in love with union because we know cricket's huge we know league's huge we know Aussie rules is huge union has probably fallen by the wayside in the last 20 years or so and is trying to build itself back up via big events like this, the World Cup coming next year.

37:05How can Aussies fall back in love with Union, in your mind? Yep, and that's why the way they're approaching this new set, it's so important for Australian rugby. Honestly, it really is. We've got a lot of major sports here in Australia, and we've got a lot of great athletes. But when you spread that over a vast array of professions, it can, I mean, yeah. I mean, it's the young characters coming to these World Cup matches, the young kids, the next generation, when they see the colour, they see the oneness of it all. It brings everyone together. There's good vibes. They sweat and they bleed their national blood in the moment, but then they all sort of realise at the end of it, we're all humans.

37:52We all come together for competition, to sharpen the swords, but also for a win too, for our own honour and that's bloody beautiful. And when we put this show on, I hope everyone goes home feeling like they spent the money the right way, they had a great time and they made some beautiful memories. Well look Nick, you've done a great sales pitch for everyone getting round to the Aussie World Cup next year and let's hope we get a belting game on Sunday. England Wallabies always kicks off a bit, doesn't it? So I'm sure you'll be watching somewhere in the outback in the middle of nowhere. Get your satellite dish up and find the stream somewhere for your kids.

38:33Mate, I've got to dive down and grab these lobsters in the next couple of days. So I'm hoping to have some lobsters ready on top of a bit of steak to watch this absolute belter of a game. But I like to catch my own food and there's a ton of it here, mate. So I look forward to it. Good luck. You're going to need it. And we'll talk further, eh? Surf and turf sounds great. I'm definitely coming for one of those if we get there next year. Awesome stuff, Nick. Thanks so much for your time. Right, there'll be a spot around the campfire for your old son. See you there.

39:12Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of The Best One Yet. Behind every episode, there's research, email, spreadsheets, and our shared Google Doc, the Headline Hammer. With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs, and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at goo.gle slash workspace with Gemini. That's goo.gle slash workspace with Gemini.

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41:30Okay, so once again, thank you to Nick Cummins. Will, I had a smile on my face throughout that whole thing editing that. What a good bloke. He's absolutely mad, but in the best way. and yeah, all of those quips. And my favourite is tighter than a fat laddie sock, which he said he couldn't get away with these days. I thought that was fair enough. Fat lady sock, wasn't it? No, laddie. Fat laddie, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, interesting. But I mean, what a character. Just, yeah, amazing to have him on. We've got to try and link up with him when we're in Australia for the World Cup next year, Well, he's offered me a place around the campfire, so I'm going to take him up on that if he remembers in a year's time.

42:05And you're going to have a bet which no one's going to be told about what the stakes are as well. So good stuff. Really enjoyed listening to that. Look, before we were with Slotty, we were chatting about his article. Well, we're now up at the England team hotel. Alex will hopefully be joining us in just a moment. By the way, he's... I mean, priorities. He's betrayed us for another pod. You might have already heard him if you were listening to all sorts of podcasts on your feed. He's with the BBC at the moment, which is why it's just me and you. Unbelievable, yeah. Probably getting paid for that one as well.

42:36Fair play. Surely not more than what we pay him, surely. Oh, gosh. But Alex will be joining us in just a moment, although he's betrayed us for our friends at the BBC. But he'll be joining this chat midway through, where we can bring people up to speed. I thought we were going to start off straight away with the England squad that Steve Borthwick has named. But I think the big talking point from us being up here has been the squad's reaction, the senior or some of the senior leaders who we've been speaking to, Jamie George, Oli Chessom, Mara Toje, and you guys have had Steve Borthwick as well, their reaction to Slotty's piece, which has been, as you maybe expect, strong.

43:09Yeah, it has been pretty strong, as you would expect, I guess, especially from the senior leaders. Steve Borthwick played a fairly straight bat and just said he doesn't recognise the criticisms in that piece. Fine. Jamie George was very fiery. And one of the many things that he said was, you come for us, you come for all of us. And we will show our love for Steve Borthwick on the field on Sunday. which is fascinating because I think if they don't play well and they play meekly wow what are we talking about on Sunday night like the message from here now is that they are absolutely 100 % fully behind Steve Borthwick the senior leadership team because that's all the people we've seen and Oli Chaston similarly I didn't chat to him but you did gave the sort of party line similar message didn't he yeah both of them very strong both of them saying very similar phrases as well so you wonder how much they've had a chat this morning after that article came out and well they had a meeting yeah it's jamie george explained to us that they saw slotty's piece drop last night him and marito j shared it with each other and called a meeting at which they were all very angry and everything else so look we weren't in that meeting but that was their view of it and how it was all played out.

44:28So what I think is fascinating turning onto the game is the only evidence we get of how aligned they are and whether their words match with their action is on Sunday, isn't it? It's how they play. And that's what England fans will be looking at from the stands. It's like, okay, we've read the interpretation of their environment. We've now heard their response to it or at least some of the players' response to it. Now, what does the rugby look like on Sunday? Which, for all of these reasons, and how they've played all this through this year, is going to be fascinating, isn't it? And both Oli Chessam and Jamie George said, this has been designed to divide us.

45:08It won't divide us. If anything, it's going to make us even more unified. So as you say, we'll see what they look like on Sunday when they take on the Wallabies. You've got to run, Will. So we'll let you go. Back on Sunday night, post-match podding. Post-match pod on Sunday. Alex is going to join us now. This is going to be seamless. I'm literally going to pass a mic to Alex. Oh, sorry. Been busy promoting the ruck on Rival podcast, making sure everyone tunes in. Sorry, Will. See you later. See you, Will. We'll see you Sunday. Well, about as seamless as we can make that transition. Alex, we've just been speaking, Will and I, about the England team reaction to Slotty's piece that we were obviously chatting to Slotty about earlier.

45:46Very, very strong. Jamie George, Oli Chessam say it's going to unify the group is there anything you want to add before we get on to the actual England team selection? I think just I'm not surprised by that reaction. It's what I would imagine. And we would defend Slotty's journalism. We would defend the work that he's done. I guess we just know how these high-performance environments operate. And when they feel they're coming under attack, they use material to circle the wagons, to create a siege environment. And I think the key thing, it was no coincidence that Jamie George, Mara Utoji, Oli Chesson came out to speak today, the three senior leaders in this team.

46:30And one of the areas that we have discussed about England and concerns about England, we talked about earlier in the pod, was the leadership. Were they united? Were they pulling in the same direction? They are going to use this to galvanise. We heard them talk about that. they've got to deliver now on Sunday Sotti wasn't writing this to give them fuel for the fire but it doesn't surprise me in a high performance environment that they do that because England historically start these campaigns slowly and I know that a lot of the conversations that have happened internally since the summer tour have been about capturing that fight and that scrapping edge that they displayed in Argentina they may have been fortunate to win the game depending on your view of that late try that was disallowed for Argentina, potential high tackle.

47:21But they fought. It was pretty ugly at times. It was some really nice attacking rugby at times. But the mentality to get over the line with all the yellow cards was they needed to dig in and fight for each other. And I know that that has been a topic of conversation since the summer about coming into this campaign with an edge, coming in and, I guess, imposing themselves right from the outset. and so something like this happens and given that that's what they're already talking about they're only going to use it as fuel and you know listen maybe they'll be giving Slotty a World Cup winner's medal in his time yeah well look let's see what they look like on Sunday speaking of Sunday the England team headlines Finn Smith starts he was 50-50 earlier on in the week He's at fly half and as reported, Ben Curry is in the back row in place of his brother Tom, who is injured.

48:17What stands out to you from Steve Borthwick's selection? So a few things. Tom Curry would be in the first 15 because he is a big game player. But we also know that he's got this hip issue, which is not going to go away. And if this was a World Cup final week, I suspect he'd be making himself available to play. I mean without knowing the full extent of it but Steve Borthwick said to us it was tight a tight hit doesn't keep Tom Curry out of matches that are massive and while I'm definitely not one of those who thinks everything's about the World Cup we are in a year where there are going to be big games and he's a particular case where he has to be looked after and I think it's really helpful this week that his understudy, his twin brother is actually perfectly suited for this contest Fraser McRae, arguably, probably the best jackaling bat rower in the world ben curry statistically the best jackaling bat rower in england so it doesn't feel like too much of a of a setback there i think there's a one of the things that steve both who's always hung his hat on is his continuity of selection so while i think england maybe ultimately will benefit from the pace of a marchant or a um will joseph outside center i always thought enemy slade would would start this game but overall for all the kind of pressure and angst that's around the place Steve Borthwick has the strongest hand for this game that he's had all year and if you look at the the run that England went on last year when they were winning games the hallmark of that of that successful run the character was the impact off off the bench and so having having the two having four four kind of frontline props available this time with Stuart and Genge coming off the bench with Cowan Dickey that's three Lions front rowers and then George Martin with the kind of heft and power in the second row and then the kind of jack-in-the-box X-factor of Pollock who'll be covering wing and Fisilau who's really had to wait and earn his go.

50:24Yeah, making his debut. It feels like, so that's a much and Furbank and And Finn Smith, which is their 10-15 partnership, England have been desperate to get out on the field. So England have had a poor year and they've played badly, really badly at times. They're under pressure now. There's negativity circling, there's scrutiny. But Borthwick has the best team that he's been able to pick all year for this crucial opening game. Yeah, you feel the return of George Furbank is key. He's a guy that they've been waiting on for ages. I mean, you guys were out in South Africa writing that Furbank's back just for him to pull out of the team close to kick off there.

51:00He's named on the team sheet again. And you do feel like he is the sort of guy that for this England team to click and to work, they have been waiting on him to be available. They have. And it's two years. Yeah. And, you know, again, you can't hang your hat on one professional rugby. You can't hang your hat on just one player, as poor George Furbank has shown. But he will make a difference to this team. The impact he's had at Harlequins has been immediate. You can see what a classy player is. You can see how he interacts with a playmaking 10. Finn Smith and Furbank are so tight, so important in everything Northampton have achieved in the last few years.

51:39And everyone's been desperate to see that come alive on the international stage. So, yeah, his return is huge. As we've seen with Harlequins, really, these players the skill playmaker players they do still need a platform so that England pack to me look punchy, they look superior to the Australia pack Australia have held some players back on the bench but that sort of bomb squad if you like in inverted commas that England will be able to send on just has hallmarks of that winning run that they had it's an opportunity here to really show what they are and who they are, impose their personality on the game.

52:20I suspect they'll maul quite a lot because that is the way the game is now. But they've got playmakers there. They've actually got three of them with Slade at 13. They'll want to move the ball where they can, I'm sure. Yeah, interesting. Final one on England, Alex, before we just rattle through the other matches. What's success for England this November? Well, I mean, that's a big question. I was looking at this the other day and I think it's maybe a sign of where England are and the expectation around them that England's best chance of winning three out of their four games this autumn. So they'll play Australia, Japan, New Zealand.

52:57I think if they win all three, that's definitely a success. I think to beat Australia and Japan is what is expected. But then we go into finals weekend, where the European pool will play the Southern Hemisphere pool, 1v1, 2v2, 3v3. so England's best chance of a successful November I'd say three wins out of four is actually to finish as the third best team in Europe because then they play probably play Australia or Argentina in the finals weekend so it's not setting the standards very high because if they were to finish first or second in Europe which is possible they'll play Australia or New Zealand in that finals weekend and they could finish first or second without beating New Zealand because everyone, the top four have all got the same record.

53:47And I just say that as an indication that, you know, to get three out of four, they actually don't want to be playing the best teams. Well, that's one of the weird things about this format, right? Like how it works is, you know. Yeah, it is. But it's also indicative of England over the last four years that they are, they're in that second tier and they don't have a very good record or really any record of punching upwards. I think England, if they can demonstrate success, it will be beating teams who are above them in the rankings. But then to get the results they want, they kind of want to avoid those teams.

54:23And that sort of shows where England are at the moment. Yeah, well, we'll see what the month has in store for them. Round us off then, Alex. We're literally recording this a matter of hours before Ireland-Argentina. So we won't ponder too much on that, although you can have a word on it if you want to. But the other games, we've got Ireland-Argentina on Friday, Italy, South Africa, Scotland, New Zealand, Wales, Japan, and France, Fiji. Scotland, New Zealand, the obvious pick of those. What stands out for you? Yeah, really exciting opportunity. It feels, I remember covering Wales, where every time the All Blacks went to Cardiff, when Wales were in their pomp, you're like, could this be the day?

54:59Could this be the day? And Wales, under Gatland in particular, they actually targeted the Six Nations less than the Novembers. And they never quite got over the line against the All Blacks. We're having that conversation about Scotland. Could it be? Could it be? They had a real good go against the box, didn't they, in the summer? Couldn't quite get over the line, but landed a few blows. So I'm really excited for that game this weekend. I think there's a real fascination for me about Wales-Japan too. I think there's so much wrong with the game in Wales, structurally and politically, but there's an opportunity here for a team.

55:39I mean, we've talked before on the pod about how many Welshmen are in the Prem. How many Welshmen are flying in the Prem and making a huge difference in winning teams? Aaron Wainwright, the two boys at Gloucester. Aaron Wainwright just wasn't winning matches. He'd go the whole season winning a couple of times for the Dragons and Wales. Bring those guys back. They're playing well. They're informed. They're confident. You know, this is the kind of game against a tricky Japan team that I'd like to see Wales really impose themselves and start to show that they could mean business heading through into the Six Nations where you want Wales to be winning games.

56:18You want there to be this excitement and expectation and fervour around the national team. I want that to start against Japan. Yeah, I'm excited by the excitement around Wales, which it's been a long time since you said that. I know listening to colleagues who have a much better understanding of the Welsh game than I do, but they're excited or encouraged by the depth in the front row, which feels like it's the first time in a while. It feels like there's reasons to be positive there, but certainly that Japan game, massive for Wales to start well and get a result a bit like it is for England because the whole month looks very different if the post-match pod on Sunday, Alex, is us digesting another England defeat.

56:52We shall see. As I've just mentioned, next pod coming your way will be from the stands at Twickenham on Sunday where we will react to England's match against the Wallabies, then back as usual in studio on Monday. Going to be a good month though, Alex? Looking forward to it? Yeah, really looking forward to it. I think the nation's champ format is hard to grab hold of in July. But now we're into November. And just because part two of it is months away. But we're here now and the permutations of how the final scene will play out. It's a slightly odd competition still, but there's silverware available.

57:29There's a level of uncertainty. We don't quite know how the month is going to go. there's so many individual narratives around so many teams we'll talk about it next week but France South Africa on a Friday night how are Ireland can Scotland take their chances this November what England will we see you know now they've got this this selection they want now they've got this siege mentality brewing there's loads there's loads for us to get into loads of great games every weekend exciting yeah it's going to be good and we love doing it we love bringing you more pods We'll be doing three a week throughout the month.

58:02So I hope you enjoy them. Get them wherever you get your pods from. And then the Monday episode, you'll be able to watch as well. Just search Times Sport on YouTube. Back with you on Sunday. Thanks for listening.

58:30logins, just personalized AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at go.gle slash workspace with Gemini. That's go.gle slash workspace with Gemini. Good news for anyone who's bad at waiting. Black Friday deals at Lowe's are already on. Get up to three free select DeWalt, Craftsman, or Cobalt power tools with the purchase of a Select Battery Kit. Three for free? You better believe it. Plus, select ladders are up to 50 % off. So go ahead. Get in there early.

59:08Shop Black Friday deals in-store or online now at Lowe's. Valid through 1118. While supplies last. Free tools vary based on Battery Kit purchase and location.