Who is playing for an England World Cup spot?

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1:19Alfie: Hello, welcome everyone to The Ruck, the rugby podcast from The Times and Sunday Times, hurtling through November. We're into week two. Welcome back. We're once again at the England Team Hotel. Alfie here, along with Will and Charlie. Will, Charlie, all right, boys? It's looking quite autumnal, isn't it? Red leaves, orange leaves, brown leaves. I'm going to name other colours until someone else says something. All of those are autumny. But freezing cold, yeah. It's very autumnal, feels very autumny. A bit of a different week, though. Yeah, I reckon there is, by the way, on us being outside and it being very autumnal, I reckon there's about one pod a year where we'll be up here.

1:53Alfie: and I say, should we go outside? Let's go outside. And we all get outside. And now we're like, we are absolutely freezing. We're layered, we're layered, but we're all right. Yeah, but yeah, very different week for England. Build up to the Japan game. We'll speak about the other fixtures happening this weekend as well. I've had a chat with Mark Palmer to look ahead to Scotland's match against Australia. Starting with England, though, we're here at their training base. They have named their team. Steve Borthwick has named his team. Ten personnel changes from the 15 which took on the Wallabies. Henry Pollock starts as reported this week.

2:24Alfie: Max Ajomo is back in place of the injured Seb Atkinson. Will Joseph starts as well. Emmanuel Faye Waboso, of course, out of November entirely. There's a whole new front row. Archie McParlane could debut from the bench just to go through a number of the potential talking points there. Change is expected, lads. Obviously, injuries have played a real impact here as well. Are you surprised by the amount of changes that England have gone for?

2:47Charlie: I think so, yeah. There's three players there. Jack Van Port, Philippe Maratoji and Henry Slade wearing the same shirt numbers. Alex Coles was scrummaging at six, but is now actually wearing six. And obviously Earl slips from eight to seven to accommodate Henry Pollock. I think he's more than potentially Steve Borthwick would have wanted to make. He's all about cohesion and continuity, as we know. But that's played into some of the players that are there. So George Ford, I think, would catch the eye probably first in that selection. I think people are really pumped to see Henry Pollock at eight, Max Ojooma at 12 and see Will Joseph rewarded for his Gloucester form at 14 I think there might be a little bit of what's the word frustration maybe to see Ford return for his first game since the Ireland game but we know that he is an absolute expert George Ford at facilitating other players being really understated and making sure things tick the amount of times that I've heard him referred to as an additional coach the amount of times that he's been praised for his keeping standards high in training I think that's really pertinent here because the way that those players the more the more in very commas exciting exciting players perform is with is within a team performance that doesn't overreach that is understated that is makes right decisions that isn't potentially swayed or thrown off course by the curveballs that Japan are undoubtedly going to throw at them so it's it's a classic borthwick blend that's how i'd describe it it's a it's an interesting one too because he's pitched it himself as a world cup squad audition for the likes of joseph for the likes of a jomo and a few others and he offered up the other day that he already settled on high 20s of his 33 man squad which is which felt like a lot which felt like a lot and then today he gave an exact number he said 26 to 28 so 23 so 27 yeah so so there's not many positions up for grabs and and we can talk in detail about the sort of newbies but i think an interesting point to linger on is the ford one where where it feels like an audition for a jomo for lawrence for arthur clark for muck parland it's almost like a re-audition for george ford i think like we were talking about this off air Charlie that obviously he is so valuable as this kind of auxiliary coach this hundred capper who through all of these world cup cycles is the 10 for a bit gets dropped and then comes back to save things at some point like that's that's the George Ford arc that has ever been but what's interesting now in this sort of era of versatility is that he is ostensibly now the third choice fly half who doesn't play any other position and the first choice fly half doesn't really play another position either fin smith can move to 12 but with who else is going to be in that squad he's really never going to be considered as a proper frontline 12 so oddly where marcus has been overlooked as the 10 here he's probably more likely to be in the world cup squad because of his versatility and therefore similar with joseph and others whereas ford i think he almost gets down with faint praise doesn't he because it's like wow he's so good at the non-23 stuff and after a while you go god I'd actually bloody play as well

6:07Alfie: so I think this is important for him this week but barring injury George Ford is surely in the 26 27 28 players that he's going to take to the World Cup do you need three three three tens and all three well two of the three of them don't play anywhere else do you not take a hundred capper that has been ever present in your squads over the last four years yeah I think certainly if he if he

6:29Charlie: goes well at the weekend and as I say allows others to shine I think that is it's a no-brainer I think it becomes a lingering question mark if he looks as probably fair to say off it as he did the last time he was playing for England which was in that Ireland game and has done a bit for a stuttering sale side my the way I put it is that these the three tens the Smiths and Ford have been ever presence in the central contract group haven't they and they've been ever presence in squads. They're clearly very highly valued for both what they do on the field and in all of their cases, to be honest, what they're doing in training, how they're keeping standards high there.

7:08Charlie: I don't think you can bring all three of them in a World Cup squad with Henry Slade and Freddie Stewart as well. So that's to me where the pinch points are coming. As in the immovable players, the players that don't play any other position than their front line one? Well, no, I think those five, you might have to lose one of those and to be honest that would be I feel like it would be a big casualty of any of those notwithstanding Slade was that last time he was yeah and it was I was just sort of looking back at the last sorry the first World Cup warm up but it was the last one before the cut off and he was in 23 shirt for that and he came on and they lost 29 in Cardiff and it's a funny old back line to sort of funny outside to be honest to look back on but But yeah, that's just an idea of, I think, what the decisions coming down the track are for Steve Borthwick.

8:04Alfie: Fascinating. I hadn't considered that George Ford might be playing for a spot in the World Cup. With Furbank, I mean, again, he's picked up another little annoying injury. But if he's also going to be the 15 that can play 10, and let's be honest, they could probably play whoever they want at 10 against Zimbabwe and Tonga and win that game. so it's who's the most valuable person for the potential World Cup quarterfinal semi-final and that still might be Ford because of his knowledge experience coaching talent basically and being the opposition in training but I think this versatility thing is going to be very interesting on that front anyway.

8:43Charlie: I asked both Steve Borthwick and then George Ford himself about George Ford's form over the last year because it's been a wild year because if you think back We're not yet a year removed from what was undoubtedly an excellent performance of his against New Zealand. Steered England past New Zealand, albeit sort of a clunky, sort of uncertain New Zealand, but England were really assured in that game. And Steve Borthwick chose to speak about, he said that I think I've seen some good things from George Ford on sale duty, but I really value the dialogue that I have with him as a player and as a coach I really value that and how you can sense how the way a week's going and things like that.

9:22Charlie: I would like to have heard more about actual in-game stuff, to be honest. And then there was a bit of, I thought there was a bit of defiance in George Ford's answer. I'd probably phrase it a little bit of a different way and asked him sort of how the last year has been. And he was saying, I have loved it. I have loved the grind of it, the difficult times with Sale and trying to work our way out of that. And he said that he's taken a lot of pride in the training role he's had with England. I just think that supporters, and as I've written just now, I think supporters justifiably want and need to see a commanding George Ford performance to be reminded of how he can facilitate an England side.

10:03Alfie: Well, he's definitely one of those players, as you've hinted at already. I would say, along with Freddie Stewart, that for whatever reason, in the comments section on social media, that people are just saying, Ford and Stewart there again, which I think for both of those guys is harsh. But you're right. I think he is someone that, for whatever reason, isn't as in favour with the fans at the moment. Shall we get on to Max Ajomo? Yeah. Because... Steve Borthick reads the times. He listens to the Ruck, obviously. We gave him the big pitch. Sunday for Monday, didn't we? And Monday for Tuesday. Well, you were saying, Will, and I think you agreed, Charlie, that you wanted to see Max Ajomo come in for this game against Japan.

10:35Alfie: I was saying, if he's playing England Day on Friday night, we haven't seen him since the Argentina game. I'm not sure he's particularly in Borthwick's thinking. I think it will be Dingwall. But Ajomo does play. What does that tell us about Steve Borthwick's view of Max Ajomo? It's really interesting because all those things are true. And when I was writing that piece and we talked on The Rock on Saturday night, I thought the same, almost like, well, I'll write that I think he, and I do believe that he should be playing 12, but I don't actually expect it to happen. And those around him earlier in the week were like, well Borthwick never really promotes straight from England A into the test team so don't know not sure so then when Charlie did the good job of digging and got the news that he was going to play at 12 I was like okay all right okay interesting very interesting but it's a funny one again like we always try and read between the lines of what people are telling us here and Borthwick was very praiseworthy on Saturday night sorry on Sunday night of Jomo's England A performance and immediately started talking about Fraser Dingwall and then today he said he is one of the most talented players in English rugby and then pivoted the conversation to how physical his other midfielders are the ones that aren't available Seb Atkinson, Bernard Janssen van Rensburg and how well they get the ball back and his big thing at the moment is telling us which is very true the tactical trend at the moment is that the longer you are defending the more likely you are to give away pens, yellow cards, everything else, which was the thing that was killing England earlier in the year.

12:06So you've got to get the ball back, which is why Ben Curry played last week. And he is basically saying to Max Ajomo through that, I think, I know what you can do in attack, mate. You're very good handling, but I need to see dog in you. I need less flashiness. I need to see you smashing blokes in midfield, in the carry and in defence. and I need you jackling. Because Seb Atkinson was good on a few strafes pulling the ball away last week, wasn't he? And he knows that Van Rensburg's got that in his locker. So I think this is a really big test for Ojoomo to show that we all know the stuff that he can do really well, but it's can he marry it with all that other stuff too?

12:46Charlie: Totally agree. I was at the Bath sale game, which was the last Premiership round before the England players broke for this. And very early on in the game, Ojoomo made a tackle, was back on his feet, burrowing into a breakdown I think Miles Reid eventually won the turnover from the same ruck but he peeled away and not in an ostentatious way necessarily but was really pumped celebrated that turnover and it was that was just one of those things where you think is that something that's he's been told to go he's been told to make sure you're because because Will's spot on and really just listening to Borthwick there the it's not it's not going to be a surprise if Max is sparkling at the gain line, throwing tip passes, throwing pullback passes, playing through the line and offloading.

13:31Charlie: We know he can do that. I think he can really lay down a marker by being a real nuisance in defence too.

13:39Alfie: Well, I did speak to Max Ajomo today. The England media team kindly sent him my way. And interestingly, he said, so physicality both sides of the ball was clearly something that he has been told. And in terms of his relationship with Steve Borthwick, there's been rumours there, haven't there? after the Argentina game of how Borthwick viewed him and that sort of thing. I asked him what his relationship was like with Steve Borthwick and he said improving and that they had a really honest conversation at the end of the summer in Argentina where he hadn't played. He was frustrated to have not been involved.

14:11Alfie: So I think there is a better relationship there. I think there's a better understanding there now and maybe this is a reflection of that.

14:16Charlie: How good that he said that. He's always... Especially after last week where everyone was like, everything is absolutely fine. I think he after that Argentina game because he wasn't meant to play in that was he it was a late withdrawal that gave him that chance he spoke really well about he said my head had gone my head had absolutely gone I just thought that I was going to just miss out again and actually he said that Lee Blackett sort of spoke him down from the ceiling almost and yeah he's always really admirably candid about that sort of thing so that's really interesting to hear.

14:53Alfie: Yeah, elsewhere in the squad if we pick out a few other bits I think we're probably all excited to see Archie McParlane get shot. Finally, yeah. He said sort of two nearly goes and now he finally gets a go. That's nice. And another one which is a position I think we keep talking about because it just feels so important, Charlie but Theo Dan getting minutes off the bench at hooker.

15:10Charlie: It'd be interesting to say how this very spot the bench spot against Japan seemed sort of earmarked for Kepitupilotu so I think Theo Dan will absolutely want to I mean they've got their work cut out there because Japan are going to really pressurise that line out so Theo Dannen want to be super tidy there and offer what he offers what we know he offers around the pitch certainly

15:31Alfie: And then the other one is and we reported this earlier in the week but Henry Pollock starts for the first time since that Ireland game where he was certainly not the only one but England massively struggled so he starts

15:42Charlie: Yeah in a more balanced back row as well and he's got the cohesion of a Saints buddy in Alex Coles there at six got a heavy carrier in George Martin starting as well. So he is set up for success far better, I think, than he was against Ireland. And yeah, interesting to see, and this was something that Borthwick touched on as well, just how him and Earl sort of dovetail as carriers. Because as Borthwick said, there's going to be guys who are going to have to be hitting a lot of rucks with those two liking getting their hands on the ball so much. I was looking this up in the week and I think we've all sort of known that Ben Earl has dominated that number eight shirt.

16:23But it's been remarkable how much of a lockdown he's had on it. So I was looking through. I'm incredibly sad and I keep a spreadsheet of all the teams that Steve Borthwick's picked. So on days like this, you can go, ah, here's a theme. so since the other Wales World Cup warm-up game in 23 when Farrell got sent off and they had 12 on the field at one point yeah that was since that day Ben Earl has been in England 23 every single time he's been available aside from the three tests that England played in the summer of 25 when he was on the Lions tour and he's played either seven or eight they obviously moved to seven when Tom Willis burst through for a small period then Willis got binned off because he was going to Bordeaux and then went back to eight.

17:10So I think he started 31 of the 48, 49 England tests that Borthwick's had. He had a tiny couple on the bench at the start, if you remember, 23 Six Nations, where he has said himself since that he was really poor in the Scotland game and got dropped from the whole squad. Missed a few of those Six Nations, came back for the World Cup warm-ups, was the eight at the World Cup ahead of Billy Vinopola and then vroomf, ever since. So someone else getting a go at eight is interesting, but it's But Earl's still there at seven. And the thing I'm interested about is, does England's eventual back row at the World Cup, the best version of it, include both of them?

17:48Pollock and Earl? And does that necessarily... Because also what I'm thinking is, Pollock's role has always been this bench 20-minute, come and fly and do something fun.

17:58Alfie: And he's got a great back catalogue of doing that well as well. Loads of that. He's only started that one Ireland game, which didn't go well for anyone. He's got another chance here. What I'm thinking is, by the time England gets to a last 16, a quarterfinal and possibly a semifinal, is actually the best order that you start with Pollock and Earl, and then when the game definitely is likely to get tighter at the end, you have Curry. Is that maybe where it shifts in the next year? I don't know. What do you guys think?

18:27Charlie: I think Pollock outgrew his replacement role for Saints really quickly, and part of that was because his engine is so remarkable that he was such a weapon in the last 10 minutes of the first half. So when fatigue was setting in a little bit, this guy was relentless, still going. And I think he's been a great impact replacement for England because at 50 onwards, people are starting, there's starting to be a bit of fatigue on the pitch. But I can see it happening at test level, actually, where because he's on from the start, he gets that last 10 minutes of a half where not just his pace and his explosive athleticism, but just his relentlessness almost surprises people.

19:10Charlie: Yeah, and I can see it would follow. It would follow his club kind of trajectory if the same happened with England.

19:16Alfie: So Pollock starts for England for the second time. More on this game in just a second. But Pollock recently spoke to the Sunday Times magazine. Here he is explaining why he recently signed with Eddie Hearn and Matt Frum.

19:30Charlie: Yes, my agent Matt knew Eddie from there, younger than working together. Matt said he had a cool opportunity coming up about potentially Eddie. He didn't actually say Eddie, he just said potentially someone a big time wanted to get involved and then obviously when he told me he said let's go meet him and then met him he was so inspirational and just kind of made everything seem really easy and he just said that listen mate I can take you to the next level. So being able to have him as a mentor has been amazing and obviously all the commercial side of stuff is now getting completely taken care of which is really nice so I can just kind of focus on my rugby and focus on my recovery and then all the kind of stuff off the field is like I guess I don't have to worry about it.

20:12Alfie: What do you think Eddie can do for rugby?

20:15Charlie: Yeah hopefully I think I think rugby definitely needs to change some of its policies but I think the influence of Eddie's been massive and I think the way he can definitely change his sport in a very positive way get more kind of coverage of the sport get more people talking about it and that's ultimately what rugby needs you know it needs more more to kind of watch games and um so i think he's definitely going to help that and yeah hopefully we can kind of be the people that um i guess kickstart that whole journey and kind of start start rugby becoming this this major sport especially a world cup 12 months out you know building hype around that is going to be massive so um any influence we can have on that is it's going to only be beneficial for the sport there's two you've got your traditionalists in the sport

20:52Alfie: and then you've got people that really want to see the game develop and there's it's only really going to happen by better marketing getting more eyes on it and that sort of thing how do you see

21:00Charlie: your role in that um yeah that's a good question to be fair i think i think that my role is being myself being being organic and um being being true to who i am and then hopefully on the back of that we can kind of see influence but i think the the more we can kind of get the fans to become close to the the players and the sport is only going to be beneficial you know we have such a good strong base here in northampton but regionally we need to kind of increase it more in the grassroots level I think that's the way forward, you know, we need to get people getting pubs in seats. We need to get more schools getting participants in rugby because you see like footballs, people playing football in every single state school.

21:37Charlie: But rugby is not an option. So how do we kind of increase the level at that kind of grassroots level? But yeah, as I said, I'm kind of not consciously playing my role a little bit, but I'm very much focusing on day-to-day stuff and they're kind of taking care of all the off-field stuff.

21:53Alfie: Henry Pollock chatting to James Palmer for the Sunday Times magazine. Subscribers, if you haven't already, you can go get the full read online. Shall we do a bit more on Japan here? Massive underdogs at the weekend. How do Japan cause England problems? Well, something that Eddie said to you, which was one of the fun little barbs that he threw to Steve Borthwick, was that England don't like unorthodox rugby. This is to you, sorry to interrupt, to you, Charlie, because you've been speaking to Eddie this week. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And interestingly today, Steve Borswick, he's obviously absolutely maxing his time subscription because not only did he read Slotty's piece last week, but he read our Maxi Jomo piece.

22:32And then he's definitely read that interview because there was a we were asking this question to Steve Borswick about what are you expecting in kerfals and things like that. And he started talking about the fact that Joseph was on the wing and things like that. And he was a bit like, oh, that's not very orthodox, is it? You're like, oh, OK, he's read it. but look it's funny with well two things so statistically Japan have a very good line out Maro Otoji was saying today that they're one of the best statistically one of the best line outs in the world and with Warner Derns the Kiwi who's found his place in the Japanese team and is one of those sort of almost not anymore one of those hipster world 15 picks like he's a really damn good player he causes some problems Cornelson as well they've got to throw something different at England's and but they don't look like the team that we loved at the 2019 World Cup who just played with such pace that people couldn't keep up with them and the way they just blasted Ireland and Scotland that World Cup everyone was just adoring what they did it doesn't look like they're that team anymore and they've got their best 10 playing university rugby so he's not available and then Eddie Jones has also picked Rico Tokito on the left wing who's playing his first professional match in rugby 15 a side rugby he's a sevens guy I know it kind of worked for Sueli but that's going to be interesting isn't it baptism of fire but yeah Sueli is the thing

24:07Alfie: that immediately springs to mind is the 10 that basically his university doesn't have to release to Japan. It's amazing. I don't know. Maybe that must be a loophole in World Rugby's Reg 9. They haven't written in that if you play for a university team you have to release them. But one thing I think is interesting with it like I'm going to write about this in my preview probably about the curveballs that they're expecting in England under Borthwick have not always shown brilliant adaptability on the fly. And I should probably say that about England teams for 20 years is that they're quite good when they're on the front foot and they're dominant.

24:40Eddie's teams used to be very good at that. they'd beat you in 15 minutes and then just ride you for the rest of the game. Whereas if it got a bit sticky and a bit kind of difficult in Wales Away or something like that, or things were going against them. Is that Eddie flying over us on his helicopter? I was going to say, who's been picked up? But when things used to go awry in England games, and we could list loads of them, quite a few of them would happen in Cardiff. England would kind of not know what to do. And I remember Eddie talking about it himself, saying that the grenades were jangling at the back of the Jeep.

25:14And he was sort of talking about the baggage of the 2015 World Cup was still with them, that they couldn't cope with things that went wrong. And so if Japan do throw curveballs at them, I'd like to see how they adapt. Having said all that, I do think it's funny sometimes, because Eddie Jones is very good at talking about innovations and not actually doing any. that he was the guy that said Jack Knoll should play flanker and then never actually did it. Whereas Steve Borthwick has played Ben Earl at 12 and Pollock on the wing as the boring guy in inverted commas. And Marcus Smith at 59. Yeah, and it's funny, isn't it?

25:50Because Eddie's known as this great innovator and not a lot of his innovations actually have happened on the field. So I'm interested to see whether England basically mauled them to death because they did against Fiji. You remember that? They get one area of the game they're good at and they just go, right, oh, we're just going to absolutely fly here. I don't know what the odds are on a Cow and Dickie hat-trick, but I'd lump on it. But on the other side, if Japan are just a bit like meek and mild and don't really offer any sort of, I don't know, curveballs that everyone's expecting.

26:21Alfie: Yeah, I also feel that for England, I think they come into this week with the pressure massively off after the win and the performance against Australia, but would still quite like to see them put Japan to the sword with no disrespect to the Japanese but England are expected to win samurai sword that could do could do that yeah uh but like what 10 changes for England in the start of 15 loads of different injuries like there's quite a lot of ways that you could look at this and say are we going to see quite a clunky performance from England and I'd quite like to see them do what they did last week which was come out bully Australia get the job done do something similar here and really feel like they are kicking on i think that'd be fair to demand that i think

27:06Charlie: there are enough individuals straining to put in a good performance but they've spoken really well actually all of them mara toji steve borthwick and um george ford today about the only the only way they sort of put forward their individual cases is with something collective that looks you know cohesive and polished and i think that'll that'll have to be have to be the case certainly um yeah Yeah, so I went along to Japan's sort of vision access earlier in the week and got Eddie Jones at the end of that. And the unorthodox thing was really pointed. He'd also, there's been footage emerging of him sort of drilling forwards off nine to jump in the air, and training he had a little hurdle, and the forwards were jumping in the air, stopping and then stepping.

27:53Charlie: That looks a bit synthetic to me. I'm not sure how that's actually going to help them out, But I would expect them to, to Japan this is, to play with a lot of pace. Previously when they played England, they've hit a lot of short kicks and attacking kicks. I think England can, to answer your question, I think England can, with a fast start, by finding that area of superiority that they should have in them all, I think they can set themselves a base in the first half to really make, because it's about maintaining momentum for me. and George Ford made one really interesting point where he was talking about the back line looks unfamiliar but actually a lot of us have spent a lot of time in squads training against the first team but that is a little bit of a let's see it to believe it but coming back to the sort of the point of individual momentum having to fuel a collective performance and that's where England are I think That clip you're talking about I don't really see the benefit of it I was just about to ask, sorry what are they trying to do?

28:51Not as in, I can see the benefit of Eddie wanting that to be filmed and getting it out there to be like what am I up to what's happening everybody oh what's this but the actual act of jumping just before contact seems to I don't know dissipate all of your full momentum like if you're a tennis player I'm crap at racket sports but the thing that you would do sort of performatively is like jump but then you lose all your power don't you because you're not basing yourself on the floor doesn't all your power come from your trunk and your legs.

29:21Charlie: Is there a bit of trying to sort of make it harder to sort of get your level right for defenders? Possibly. But I mean... Or spook the defence to be like, what is he doing? Oh shit, he's gone. But I'm not sure how... There's a difference between sort of gimmicks in coaching, aren't there, that work for like, that sort of make an opposition sort of a bit... Like the Italy no-ruck thing in 2017. Yeah, but that was a gimmick, but it was so well coordinated that went on for 80 minutes, which is why it was so... And Dylan Hartley was actually there at Japan training as well, which sort of reinforced memories of the 2017 Rutgate.

29:59Charlie: But that was an 80-minute thing. And then there were other gimmicks like, I don't know, lining up a blindside wing at number eight, as Eddie Jones did with Joe Thokinasinghe for England against Italy once. For Japan to cause problems over 80 minutes, they're going to have to be super accurate as well as a bit unexpected. And yeah, and whether they're capable of that, I'm not sure. The other thing on that is England are sort of damned if they do and damned if they don't this week, aren't they? And it's quite a family crowd. It's going to be quite a family crowd on the weekend. There's some quite cheap tickets around, 15 quid for juniors, under 15s, I think.

30:39And to be fair to them, we criticise them a lot. The RFU have done pretty well to sell this game out, where Wales were 20 ,000 short of capacity. but it's just going to be a funny one because the perfect game for Borthos is going to be like finding that area of dominance and just hammering it all game and the 15 year olds in the crowd are being like I've seen five more tries and I want to go home like do you know what I mean like the the crowd that are coming are not going to appreciate some of the things that England will do and keep doing until the cows come home which is sort of what happened in Everton didn't it like we were all there going like and they were delighted at how well they thought they beat fiji who were crap and had a man sent off and there was an element of all of it being like okay like you're just killing bambi every time here with the rolling more that are really easy to score now so i hope that england produce a rounded performance not just well we can score six more tries and that'll be enough and everyone goes okay well what have we learned about you at all yeah i guess the other point is what's a what's beneficial for them to have come from this for the all blacks the next week some of it is the fact that they can rest finn baxter will stewart ben curry finn smith i think a lot of it is yeah but the other bit is who elevates this team who gets them to a higher ceiling than they are already and that's where i think i'm going to watch joe mo someone like him really closely.

32:05Alfie: Yeah, it's going to be interesting. Post-match pod on Saturday after England, Japan. We'll get to the rest of the games this weekend in just a second. Up next, though, let's hear from Mark Palmer looking ahead to Scotland's match against Australia.

32:24Charlie: Good news for anyone who's bad at waiting. Black Friday deals at Lowe's are already on. Get up to three free Select DeWalk, Craftsman or Cobalt power tools with the purchase of a select battery kit. Three for free? You better believe it. Plus, select ladders are up to 50 % off. So go ahead, get in there early. Shop Black Friday deals in-store or online now at Lowe's. Valid through 1118, while supplies last. Free tools vary based on battery kit purchase and location. Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of The Best One Yet. Behind every episode, there's research, email, spreadsheets, and our shared Google Doc, the Headline Hammer.

33:00Charlie: With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs, and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at goo.gle slash workspace with Gemini. That's goo.gle slash workspace with Gemini.

33:25Alfie: How likely do you think another pandemic is? It's right at the top of the agenda. It will happen. It will happen. You know the story? you remember the headlines, but what if you could hear from the people who were actually there? I saw a man who'd been hit in the face with two bullets, put my camera to my eye and he looked at me with all the pain in the world in those eyes. He was trying to move his head to say no, and I didn't take that picture. I'm Cathy Newman and I'm going back inside the stories that changed everything with the people at the very heart of them. Search Backstory and follow wherever you

33:58Alfie: So back on the pod, Mark, always a pleasure. We weren't able to chat to you on Monday. So before we get on to teeing up Scotland's game on Sunday against the Wallabies, shall we start with your reflections on last weekend? We always knew it was going to be a challenge against this All Blacks team. What did you make of how Scotland went about their business against the All Blacks? Well, I did tell you on the preview pod that our best chance of winning this had gone. and lo and behold, sadly, it felt like a very familiar tale where Scotland were in it until they weren't, frankly. First half, they got a bit of joy through that mall, Ewan Ashman's hat-trick.

34:34They did get a little bit of decent attack in shape, which breached the All Blacks a couple of times, a couple of times held up. But it still felt they were slightly hanging on there and then that impression just magnified in the second half. by many multiples because at the same time all the good bits of Scotland game were disappearing. The discipline, the accuracy, the intent, the physicality, all those were being dialed up by New Zealand at that exact same moment. So you had two teams sort of disappearing in opposite directions, both on the pitch and on the scoreboard. And by the end, what had looked a fairly close contest ended up a bit of a rout in New Zealand's favour.

35:16Alfie: yeah and I suppose this I think the point I'm about to make is very much one that we in the media make and I know the team themselves would never view it in this way but when I look at Scotland at the moment even though I know they've been close to they've been getting closer to a scalp against the All Blacks we saw how much they caused the Springboks problems in the summer but I almost don't look at them and think those are the teams that I'm looking at can you beat them right now because I think New Zealand to Africa will probably go into the World Cup as the favourites. My question with this Scotland team is can you beat Ireland?

35:45Alfie: Because that's a team they've struggled to get over and if we're looking ahead to the World Cup, that pool game is so important for what side of the draw they fall on. So I suppose, is that fair? Is that almost the real test of this Scotland team at the moment? Can you beat Ireland when you get to the World Cup? I think that's absolutely fair and what I would say is that probably the real test is can they beat them in this year's or next year's 2027 Six Nations because I personally don't think they will beat them at the World Cup have they not already beating them in the Six Nations. I think they have to get that one out of their system, prove it can be done to give themselves the belief that on the very biggest stage they can go out and do it.

36:19I think if there are 13 consecutive defeats heading into that fixture down in Australia, then I don't see much hope for them. So that Friday Night Lights at Murrayfield, maybe that will be the time when it happens. But yeah, they've been an impossible nut for this team to crack under Gregor Townsend. And frankly, they don't look much closer to doing so to taking that very next step.

36:42Alfie: Well, we'll wait and see. In terms of the game this weekend, I mean, coming up against an Australia side that I saw at Twickenham against England and the Wallabies were awful. So we've got two teams coming into this match off the back of defeats, quite different defeats. I think, you know, that Australia performance was really, really poor, but two sides that really need to respond. That's it. I mean, I don't know. You're like two wounded animals in one position in context. I don't know how that works. But yeah, and you know, invariably these games in recent years have been really entertaining, really good head-to-heads.

37:14You've got two teams who kind of both want to play in a similar way to get the ball to the width, to play with freedom and play, you know, to try and put on a spectacle. And then, you know, maybe it just comes down to who's better at executing on the day. That has in fact been Scotland in recent times. They've won four of the last five. so it's with you know unlike the you're all blacks in the springboks in ireland that we're talking about there there is no baggage with australia this is a game that scotland have proved time and again this group themselves that they that they can win so i think there will be an expectation there that they will go on and do it again i do think you know i think australia are better or they have to be better than what they showed at twickenham um you know and even in those kind of heavy defeats by new zealand and the bledisloe leading into this november month you could see signs of progress there.

38:03Again, there were a lot of chopping and changing in key positions. They really look like a team that doesn't have much cohesion, which you'd expect them to have probably at this stage of what's been a long season. So, yeah, I think it's one that Scotland will expect themselves to go and win whilst also anticipating a much stronger Wallaby challenge.

38:21Alfie: And with playing on Sunday, we're expecting Gregor Townsend to name his team on Friday. So, any steer on selection, Mark, some frustrations against the All Blacks? Are we going to see a reaction in terms of selection? Well, we asked Gregor about that very point in the heat of the moment, probably after the All Blacks game. And he said at that point, you know, you've got two ways you can go. You can offer a second chance, a shot of redemption for those who've maybe fallen short of expectation or standard in that first game. Or you can kind of, you know, mix it up and give the guys that have been chomping at a bit in training for an opportunity.

38:55So I think there'll be somewhere between the two. I think there will be changes. I think the back three is an area where, not least in response to what they're going to expect from Australia in terms of that aerial game, I'm not convinced we'll see Jamie Dobie start there this week. I think they'll maybe look for a more physically imposing guy on the wing, maybe a Blair Kinghorn or Kinghorn starting at 15 and Kyle Rowe moving to the wing. But other than that, we're back to a situation where we like to think of this squad as having the most depth that Scotland have enjoyed in the professional year.

39:30And it probably does, all told. But again, it's probably telescoped into certain positions or concentrated in certain positions. Whereas in others, there aren't really many other options to go away from the tried and tested. So I think there will be some changes, but not anything like a complete rip-up job.

39:48Alfie: And one of those areas where you're looking at who are the other options would be fly half. I don't know where we are with Finn Russell. He's been so good for so long for Scotland. I saw in some suggestions elsewhere of could they rotate at some point at 10? Do you think that's unlikely given the options below? I think it probably is unlikely. And it's, you know, again, probably tied into a bigger issue or a bigger challenge for Scotland that they are still very Finn dependent. Yeah, I didn't mean to, I didn't mean that in any kind of punning sense, but yes, that sounds quite good actually. I might take that one for later.

40:22but they are that so much of their game still goes through him so that even when he's marginally short of his usual level and I think on Saturday by his own admission he would have been well below his usual level against the All Blacks despite a couple of really big moments in the first half it can cause the whole game plan to go look awry or to look as if it's off kilter Sione Tupolotto has been very good in recent years at taking a bit of that playmaking responsibility off Finn's shoulders by offering and he can slip in at first and second receiver. He himself wasn't great against the All Blacks, so it felt like they were kind of getting a bit stuck in midfield there.

41:01And again, it goes back to that old maxim that if the pack aren't winning you enough good ball, then the best fly half in the world is going to look slightly off colour. And I think, again, that was the case. Scotland's set-piece struggled massively against the All Blacks. They won the breakdown, they won the collisions, and there wasn't a huge amount for Russell and those other guys in that area to conjure with. So I would expect him to keep the jersey for this game, but you'd like to think that the likes of Fergus Burke, Tom Jordan and even Blair Kinghorn himself, who has been starting at fly half for Toulouse in recent weeks, will be putting the heat on to say, well, look, we are viable alternatives.

41:45We don't need to be absolutely tied to one individual.

41:48Alfie: And I know we get to months like this, Mark, and we all probably listen to so many different podcasts and read so many different articles and things. I'm genuinely not sure if I'm stealing this point from someone else. So I apologise if this is a question. There's no new ideas. Yeah, I know. We all borrow it from each other, don't we? But I have this just nagging feeling that, did I hear someone else say that? But how many nations are like Scotland and have an absolutely nailed on starting 10? Because England, it's Finn Smith at the moment, but in this World Cup cycle. Exactly. We've had Marcus Smith.

42:18Alfie: We've had George Ford. Ireland are working out, whether it's Prendergast, Wales are working out who their options are. I mean, the Box and the All Blacks have a wealth of options, but they've kind of got two or three options that they rotate between. I guess Italy with Garbisi, maybe he's kind of the nailed on 10. But it's actually, it's funny, isn't it, how few countries are like Scotland that you have, you're absolutely nailed on starting 10. And, you know, the Wallabies themselves would be another example of a team that's had a lot of chopping and changing in that area. I know some of it injury and force, but they haven't sort of backed one horse above all others to this point.

42:53But yes, Finn Russell is still head and shoulders the outstanding candidate there for Scotland. I think Garbisi probably is the nearest equivalent. But even there, there's a lot of mutterings in Italy around, you know, he hasn't looked quite his usual self probably for the last, you know, certainly since the Six Nations. So, you know, they're starting to waver. But then, you know, the next obvious question is, who do you then turn to? And if it's still, you know, if your coaches still believe that it's a significant drop off from that to the next cab off the rank, then, you know, you can see why they'll favour the continuity.

43:27Alfie: Yeah, absolutely. Well, Mark, look, we'll leave it there and we'll be speaking to you soon, no doubt. Hopefully, well, I suppose you probably want to see a Scotland win. I know you're independent as a journalist. you probably want to see a Scotland win, but I was about to say that hopefully Australia put up a better fight than we saw them do at Twickenham the week before. OK, yeah. Mark, nice one. We'll speak to you soon. Brilliant. Thank you. Always good to have Mark Palmer on. Charlie, well, let's finish off with rounding up the rest of the action this weekend. France, South Africa, Friday night.

44:00Alfie: Alex is going to be there. Can injury hit France? Do it against the box? DuPont at 10.

44:06Charlie: I doubt it but I'm looking forward to seeing that I'm looking forward to it there's a narrative around South African fans certainly seemingly that they've got to see it to believe it with DuPont he's compromised by not being in his favourite position but it's going to be really interesting to see how he tries to guide a really injury hit front side through I think and South Africans if they do listen to this will go but I think it is better for the nation's championship as a tournament if France win on the weekend because I think the sight of New Zealand and South Africa going wild up the table winning all of their games sweeping the board and not playing each other in the final and the final feeling like one of the best teams against the world against one of the sort of third or fourth doesn't really work.

44:58Alfie: Do you think actually I know this has been a big talking point like do you think if we do get to that position people are going to say oh this doesn't well I feel like I suppose you've had four head around it they kind of be twos in the summer but yeah exactly I do think like I don't know for the whole sort of battle of the hemispheres thing that they clearly want to ramp up to work you need them both to be quite competitive whereas at the moment I know Australia and Argentina were pretty poor on the weekend but the two best teams of the world are so obviously South Africa and New Zealand a change of the narrative in some way would be useful for everybody I think because I think it was a good point made on another podcast this week but not a lot has actually changed in men's test rugby this year the only thing that's really changed massively is that New Zealand have got slightly better than they were before whereas everyone else has kind of stayed in their lane so it's funny thinking about France beating someone at home to be a shock it's not really a shock but it would be an unexpected result and I think the whole tournament would benefit from a bit of a, oh, okay, that's happened.

46:03Everything's kind of going to form right now.

46:05Alfie: Maybe more than just looking at the nation's championship, but the World Cup next year. For sure. And that could be, it's not going to be a World Cup final because they'll probably draw each other, depending on who plays who in the quarters and everything else, but it could be a World Cup semi-final, France-South Africa, couldn't it? I mean, still, it's going to be an epic occasion. They always are. They've had the France nights with the lights on and off and all that. That's going to be cool. And last year, I mean, Salaf could beat them with 13. So there's a lot for France to prove. New Zealand, quite a few changes against Wales.

46:36Alfie: Bowdoin Barrett captaining them for the first time. That took me by surprise. On his 147th cap? Ninth. 149th cap. It's amazing, that isn't it? That's got to be the... Well, definitely. Surely there's no other player who's won as many caps and never captain their country.

46:50Charlie: Has Geordie Barrett ever captained them? Because at some stage, there's going to be three brothers that have captained them. That's cool, isn't it? Yeah, really cool. That is outrageous.

46:58Alfie: Yeah, had to wait a while for it. It was 149th cap and he finally gets the captain of the All Blacks. Elsewhere, actually, what I did want to ask both of you guys, putting aside, I think everyone expects Wales to lose to New Zealand, everyone expects Fiji to lose to Ireland, but if you're looking at the teams that lost last weekend, so we've got Italy, Argentina and Scotland, Australia, who needs a win most out of those four nations? This one, these little curveball questions that I just threw in. Like an Eddie Jones curveball.

47:24Charlie: Yeah, exactly. That's actually happened. There's been a bit of existential angst about Australia, I've sensed. So maybe them. Maybe them just with the World Cup in mind.

47:33Alfie: Because the performance against England was so poor.

47:34Charlie: So poor off the back of being pumped twice in the blood is low. But I think there's a bit of desperation about that one. I think with Italy, you kind of can forgive them with the injury list and stuff. And Fiji are just where Fiji are, which, you know, who knows really. But yeah, so who have Argentina got? Italy. Italy, Argentina, Scotland, Australia. Yeah. so how about I think I'd say Argentina and Australia to me Just a quick one, let's credit Ben Darwin the former Aussie player who now works in stats and things like that he's put out an unbelievable stat the other day on his social media In the last 100 tests the Wallabies have changed the number 10 50 times 50 times Says an awful lot doesn't it I mean we'll get their team with the Scotland one tomorrow but I do think you're right Charlie whoever hosts the World Cup people want them to be quite good and Australia was so bad on Sunday thinking God and also too maybe selfishly we met up with some of the Aussies after that game and had a pint and they're probably going like we've got three more weeks of this boys not often they all get sent up this way which is a shame and now they're here and Australia are rubbish I feel like I want Pato and Panda and all those lads to get a win which is a shame for poor old Mark Palmer.

48:54But I don't know. I mean, Italy's a funny one, isn't it? Because this is just not the Italy team. They've just got hardly anyone fit. So I'm sort of less worried about them in some ways. Argentina are weird. We say it a lot now, but they're like the new France of just, it could be anything with them.

49:12Alfie: But you'd back them at the World Cup to be quite good still on their day. Yeah, I mean, they make more semifinals than some other pretty large nations dressed in green. So, yeah, I mean, they come to those tournaments heavy loaded. So I'm maybe not so worried about them. I think Aussie is the one. Aussie is the one. Because it's the two teams that lost and would be really disappointed. Scotland and Australia playing each other. The bald men fighting over a cone. Yeah, it's huge, isn't it? For whoever loses that, then the noises get a bit louder, don't they? Look, we'll leave it there. I haven't done a huge amount in Ireland the last couple of weeks, I'm conscious of.

49:47Alfie: But with them playing the Springboks coming up, we'll be chatting to Peter O 'Reilly. will do more on the Irish. Will Charlie see you Saturday?

49:53Charlie: See you, pal. Yeah. Up for it. Up for it.

49:55Alfie: Post-match pod coming to you from Twickenham on Saturday. We've got Monday coming up. You know what it's like by now. You know the race. More layers on Saturday night. Do you think you're jumping around now? A little bit cold. We've done pretty well, but I think Charlie's the one who looks most underdressed here. I think Charlie's desperate to get underdressed. You're just warm-blooded because you often aren't very layered and you don't seem to be... I've got a secret jumper underneath here. It reminds me of when I bumped into you in Paris in Six Nations. you're just walking through the street in the driving range remember that when you've turned up yeah I do actually yeah anyway there's a there's a tangent that we weren't expecting to go down we'll leave it there back with you Saturday night this has been the Ruck the rugby podcast from the Times and the Sunday Times

50:39Charlie: Good news for anyone who's bad at waiting Black Friday deals at Lowe's are already on Get up to three free select wall craftsman or cobalt power tools with a purchase of a select battery kit. Three for free. You better believe it. Plus, select ladders are up to 50 % off. So go ahead. Get in there early. Shop Black Friday deals in store or online now at Lowe's. Valid through 1118 while supplies last. Free tools vary based on battery kit purchase and location. Hey, we're Nick and Jack hosts of The Best One Yet. Behind every episode, there's research, email, spreadsheets, and our shared Google Doc, the headline hammer.

51:15Charlie: With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs, and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work, around the work, and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at goo.gle slash workspace with Gemini. That's G-O-O dot G-L-E slash workspace with Gemini.