Nations Championship Review: Is it time for Pollock to start?

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1:17Alfie: Hello, welcome everyone to The Ruck, the rugby podcast from The Times and Sunday Times. November is up and running. Wins for Ireland, South Africa, New Zealand, Wales, France and England. plus arguably the game of November is coming up on Friday in Paris. We'll get to that. It's Alfie here back in studio along with Alex Lowe. All right, Alex. Hello. How are you? Very good. We didn't have you on the post-match pod from Twickenham, but you've filed, you've been able to digest a little bit more that England win over Australia. Yeah, since my job changed, I used to really enjoy doing those immediate post-match pods, but I file a match report straight after the game and then give myself a bit of time to tweak it and polish it and try and improve it.

1:56So, yeah, I was busy tapping away, cogitated and digested the whole game and looking forward to getting into it here.

2:01Alfie: Yeah, it means you can sound more coherent than we did on the post-match pod. But a matter of hours after our Twickenham debrief, Charlie Morgan also with us in studio. Right, Charlie? Yeah, ready to backtrack on everything I said on the post-match pod. Well, as I mentioned already, pod from Twickenham recorded on Sunday night. You can get that in your feed now. Also coming up on today's episode, 2003 World Cup winner Neil Back is going to join us to give us his thoughts on England. Look ahead to the World Cup next year as well. Plenty to chat to him about. Opening weekend of November though, chaps.

2:32Alfie: We'll get to England maybe in just a second. What was the standout for both of you? Standout game or standout moment? What springs to mind when you're looking back on the weekend we've just had?

2:41Charlie: I think the dominance of South Africa wasn't a massive surprise, but it was still striking for them to go 40 points up in 35 minutes or whatever that was in Italy. I think maybe the way that New Zealand's scrum really caught my eye because that was the source of how they kept Scotland at arm's length in that game. I think maybe what was striking was that a lot of the games didn't have an edgy, tense final quarter. We thought it would be sides from opposing hemispheres, feeling each other out a little bit in this first round. and we thought that the Scotland-New Zealand game would be the sort of cracker, didn't we?

3:22Charlie: And we didn't really get that. And then obviously England were comfortable on the Sunday. Maybe Friday is what really, really ignites this. But then France have had more injuries to go on top of the ones that they already had. So that's a bit disappointing.

3:36Alfie: Yeah, we'll tease ahead to that and chat more about the France-Springbrook game later in the week. Is that fair though, Alex? I really enjoyed the weekend, but actually probably none of the games quite sparked into life in the way that we might've been hoping for. I agree. I think it's, you know, November test weekends are great because there's wall-to-wall test rugby, but none of it quite ignited. I thought the first half of Murrayfield was fantastic. I agree. Scotland were in it and you felt, this is the game that we really hope it's going to be. And then New Zealand, as you say, Charlie, just sees control of it and do what they can do so well, which is just accelerate out of sight so quickly, which is a lesson England will have to bear in a couple of weeks' time.

4:16I guess the closest game was Wales-Japan score-wise, but even that felt like a fairly flat occasion. Disappointing opening round, I'd say. The scheduling was slightly odd as well. I think launching with Ireland-Argentina, which went exactly as I would have forecast it to go, it wasn't the occasion, I think, that you would want to kind of make the statement about the resumption of this competition. It will build, but it is an odd thing. like you're building towards a finals weekend and each game doesn't feel like it's part of something bigger and none of the games really kind of gripped you for long enough.

4:55And in that sense, Sunday was a disappointing game as well at Twickenham because England were very good and Australia were very bad.

5:02Charlie: It's sort of like because we are getting our heads around the format and kind of figuring out as we go who maybe are going to, which teams are going to face one another in the final. And maybe when we're more used to this tournament, we're going to be like, oh, well, that means that because this result means this for the final shake-up. Maybe that just becomes clearer. There is the element of, it didn't occur to me at the time when Jack Van Portfield scored that it was a bonus point try for England because we're not in that mindset of, this is part of a league table. Obviously, I noted it, but it wasn't a thing like you do in the Prem where you're like, well, Northampton have got their bonus point after 50 minutes.

5:4020. Yeah, 20. England is that kind of understanding of what it all means and so therefore England getting a bonus point puts them in a better position to finish higher up the European table but on the flip side it also gives them a better chance of a far tougher game on the finals weekend

5:57Alfie: Well I was just about to say that because we've got the box in All Blacks already wrapped up well there'll be one and two we don't know in what order in the Southern Hemisphere conference so already you're looking at it and you're thinking a team's hoping to avoid them on finals weekend when we get there We'll wait and see. Well, I think you can't say that because there is a trophy to be won and England would have to say they want to be number one in Europe, bat themselves to win something at Twickenham. But realistically, it's a slight... It's why it's hard to sell the competition still because there's every chance that Springboks and the All Blacks will be unbeaten in the pool stages, but they don't play each other in the final.

6:34Whereas France and England and Ireland are likely to be battling away to finish top having lost at least twice. So it's an imbalanced competition in that sense.

6:46Charlie: Yeah. I hope this is the last one of these tournaments with the bonus point, four-try bonus point rule because I think that, and actually if we just look really quickly at that Springboks All Blacks race for the top spot in that conference, it's going to be a serious effort for South Africa to go bones point, bones point now. I think that's a really great way actually that they'll give themselves an internal challenge. Can they go to Paris? Can they then go... Dublin? Dublin, yeah. So can they go to France and Ireland and win with a bonus point both times on the back of the really arduous schedule that they've had already?

7:22Charlie: That would be as much of a statement of dominance as anything that they've done this year, actually. I know we're slightly moving on to it, but they will frame it like that, I think. When we were out in South Africa for the first game of these, this competition. Razzy didn't even know what it was called. And he, for them, that was, there were three test matches to test some combinations and prepare for the greatest rivalry series. It wasn't about, it wasn't about a trophy that they could win at Twickenham. It certainly wasn't about doing it for the Southern Hemisphere and the Hemisphere Shield.

7:56But now they're here, they'll frame it differently, right? They've built into the greatest rivalry. They've won that test series. Now they're here. I think the fact that even Etzibeth has been called up in place of a fly half, it's just an indication that, well, we're here now. Let's go and do it.

8:13Alfie: Well, it was quite telling there, the team he named, I thought, to take on Italy. It was a strong Springbok team. And as you've mentioned, the games they have coming up, I honestly thought that we would see second, third string, the sort of team that went and lost to Australia earlier this year to play Italy. And then they would get closer to the strongest team against France, against Ireland, and for the finals weekend. So perhaps that does tell us a little bit. Razzy Rasmus didn't know what the competition was called back when you were there, Alex, but they're taking it a bit more seriously now.

8:38Alfie: They keep having to a really big...

8:41Charlie: They've got this third... this carrot of going for a third World Cup in a row, which will just cement them in the pantheon of all-time great teams, and they're there already, to be honest. But you have to keep... With that comes the challenge of keeping this group of all-time greats motivated, and it's a really good thing to have for them. The manner of how they went about that Italy game, I agree with you, just was kind of almost like an ominous. And at one point they went more, shock, they're benefiting from these more changes. But they went more try, restart, recovered box kick, 50-22, more try.

9:20Charlie: And you're going, right, they're going to score 100 here. And they didn't quite, well, they didn't manage that, because the thing slowed down in the second half. But yeah, a statement performance. Yeah, it really, that thing of backing it up hit home to me. I did a big in-depth read for the Sunday Times on really why England are in this cycle of coaches hoping they survive a four-year cycle to get to World Cup, where they'll have two months prep time and for the second time in a row a benign draw and therefore a really strong chance of making the final without having to play any of the top three teams in the world.

9:53So how's that come about? How the RFU allowed the game, the professional game, to slip into this cycle where in between World Cups, it's very middling for England. I look back at Clive Woodward's book, which he wrote after they won the World Cup in 03, and the book came out 10 days after he resigned. And the last few pages of a book, which are all about his leadership thoughts, his business ideas, and the way in which he forged this winning environment. We're saying, I've come back and I'm already having to fight. I know what I want to do now. We're going to have to regenerate this team. We've lost the dad's army as they got nicknamed down there in Australia.

10:35We need to regenerate and go again. And I need all these things in place and I'm finding it, they're asking me to compromise. And he resigned and the book came out 10 days later, which had outlined the last pages of that book where this is what we need to do if we're going to go again. The RFU are putting roadblocks in place and I thought this would be the carrot that allowed everyone to give us more time with the players, give us everything we need but they're just calling for compromise the whole time and it just and since then England have been number one in the world for one week in 22 years.

11:07The All Blacks went back to back with the greatest team of the modern era certainly and then South Africa have done the same to match that feet. And why? Because of the control they have over the system and the development of players and the ability, as Charlie said, to keep moving the bar, to keep laying down new challenges, changing selections, creating new opportunities. And the depth that the box now have is ridiculous because of the way that they keep reframing things. And it struck me looking back at 0304 as to where England were unable to do that, the All Blacks did it. And now South Africa are in the process of doing it for a second time.

11:54Alfie: And do you know what really stands out to me? Certainly this weekend, but with South Africa doing that, is Mourne Vandenberg, who seems to have just suddenly come into this team at nine. And if South Africa are in a World Cup final tomorrow, it's he, you're starting nine, and they just regenerate the team and he looks so at ease in that set-up. It's the perfect way of, it's what the All Blacks did in that era. If you're dropping a new cap into a winning team, it's just so easy to understand. And you're coming into an environment that's winning, that understands who it is and is on top of its game.

12:22And so you just have to go in and do your role. You don't have to go in and change the game or do something different.

12:28Alfie: Well, look, South Africa with a dominant win over Italy. We mentioned the Scotland-New Zealand game. I agree. I think you said, Alex. That first half, I really, really enjoyed. It just always felt like New Zealand were the better team to me. Even when they had those players going to the Simbin, they kept themselves in the lead, pulled away in the second half. What about Wales? Can we mention them? because it wasn't a great game, wasn't a great spectacle, lots of mistakes. Wales 28, Japan 21. We were kind of giving them the big billing last week, excitement about where Wales are. And it seems to me that the reaction, even from the players to a degree, certainly the media covering that game, the fans a little bit as well, that that wasn't quite what we were all hoping for, what Wales were hoping for, like a win, yes, but not a performance that gets you all that excited about the month to come and where they could be heading.

13:13Charlie: Yeah, it was a must-win game that they won. and the coherence I think they will have to hope will come and the All Blacks game is going to be about staying in the fight for as long as possible and I think they can really target that Australia game if they spoil Australia in the same way that England did. I think that can be a really good fight actually but I think they have to hope, Steve Tandy has to hope that that coherence comes because maybe we thought that it would be a little bit easier than it was for those players that have looked really sharp in the Prem to come together and put something that was, yeah, as I say, coherent and cohesive over the course of the 80 minutes.

13:53Charlie: That didn't really happen. Still really impressive sparks, right? Like, Lusri Sun, it's a... He's back to form, isn't he?

13:58Alfie: Really is. Dowie Lake with the big stitches down his forehead. Yeah, yeah. They'll hope that it continues to build. I think there's signs that, you know, they're not going to suddenly become a potential Grand Slam winning team one week into the autumn, but they had to battle for it. I just think what we talked about about Wales is that there's an optimism that maybe wasn't there because we know how good some of those players are. I like the centre combination. It does feel a bit Gatland-y, but it's very powerful. They're skilful midfielders, those guys. They've got classy forwards. I think there's just...

14:33It just feels like they may have bottomed out in this sort of spiral of depression around the prospects for the national team because they do have players. They just need to build those players into a team that can apply pressure against tougher opposition than Japan. But I think it's not as depressing as it was.

14:53Alfie: Yeah. So win for Wales, a big win for Ireland on the Friday. Ireland's best attacking performance, I think, in a long, long time. Let's get on to England. We obviously did the Sunday night chat with me, you and Will, Charlie. Alex, you couldn't join us for that. So your thoughts on England on the start of their November? Like super impressive. Like they delivered on, for the first time in a long time, on everything that they had wanted to deliver. And there are two sides to this, because Australia were dreadful. Part of that was because England made it really difficult for them. And I thought, as I think back to the try that was, the first try that got chalked off for the forward pass, had come from the kickoff, England applied the squeeze inside Australia's 22.

15:35They pull the, they tried to try to exit. Maro charges down the kick, forces a shallow clearance to touch. From there, England have a base camp in the 22. They don't quite convert because of the four pass, but that set the template. Well, certainly for the first half. Australia had one entry into England's 22 for the entire first half, and it was an intercept try on the stroke of half-time.

16:01Alfie: By the way, on that, should that count as an entry into the 22? And also a line break? It counts as a line break. Both of those things I'm not having as either of them should count. But sorry, that's just my interjection. I actually had in my live report just written a line saying Australia couldn't threaten England's territory at all. And then England gifted them a try as a delete. But that sort of set the template. The blanket of pressure that England applied on Australia was suffocating for Australia. And it shouldn't have been. I think if Australia had a decent kicking game, a competent 10, they should have found better ways out of it to relieve that pressure.

16:41But they couldn't. And to England's credit, England applied that territorial dominance through what they did off the ball. And then when they got the ball, particularly with the use of Manny Faiwaboso in a sort of running back role, like roving around, looking for half gaps, bouncing off defenders. I think he had four attacking carries in four minutes and what a weapon he became. So with the platform of territorial dominance and the pressure that they exerted off the ball, England were then able to execute some beautiful rugby with the ball. They would still be frustrated how close it was at half time.

17:20I think I listed five blown opportunities from a net roll or a stupid scrub-free kick unnecessary. Those kind of dropped ball from Manny at one point. it was closer than it should have been at half-time because England gave Australia 10 points. But they scored seven tries, record number of points in the fixture. Three or four of those tries were absolutely, like, things of beauty. And so in every area, England played very well. But they weren't tested at all by Australia, who couldn't escape that squeeze. So there's a lot of credit going around after us. England, no yellow cards. They've sorted their discipline out.

17:58Under no pressure. Under no pressure. You guys had a conversation about what is it that causes cards? It's decisions under pressure. They weren't under pressure at any point when the game was a contest. So that question remains unanswered. And New Zealand will come and do a far better job of testing England in that way than Australia did. But England did all they needed to do. All they wanted to do in this game, they succeeded in doing. they were assisted by the worst Australia performance I think I've ever seen.

18:29Alfie: Yeah, I mean, totally. Charlie, we were speaking about it yesterday, but has your view developed at all with the 12 hours since we were last recording?

18:39Charlie: I've whizzed through the game since, but I would just say that reinforced it. I think the Borthwick sides make bad or uncertain sides look horrible. and a really good example of that actually came in July when they played Fiji. It came in the first half against Argentina and that's really good, Alex did a really good job there of surmising sort of the marriage between what they did off the ball and what they did on it. They played to space, they played with ambition, sorry, with the ball and then off the ball they were working really hard for one another and just doing those nuts and bolts like pressure inside, pressuring sides, breakdown in their own tiny two as they're trying to exit.

19:18Charlie: That was the thing that Harry Wilson grabbed out of. That was what he said really stifled Australia, is what he kind of picked out as the most impressive thing of Australia's, sorry, of England's performance and what really kind of made the Wallabies struggle. So, yeah, that just reinforced that. It was a real marriage of some things that they have said that they wanted to do, which was, yeah, impressive.

19:40Alfie: Well, a couple of emails. Alex and Sam emailed theruck at thetimes.co.uk. Sam agrees with Will and what Will said on our post-match pod that it's time for a Jomo at 12 against Japan if Atkinson, as we expect, is injured. A couple of questions from Alex. The first of those is, it's not a criticism of Marcus Smith, but do England need to have a Marchant or Joseph type in the 23 shirt instead? Slade, Furbank and the bench nine at a push can cover 10. Marchant, Joseph would enable you to cover both 13 and wing.

20:11Charlie: You've got Slade potentially covering 15 as well. So, yeah, I think that's a fair point. And I was genuinely surprised that Pollock did get as long as he could on the wing because I thought they'd still move Slade back there, sorry, bring on Marcus Smith and move Furbank to a wing or something like that. But they obviously, A, backed their training plans and there was a bit of nuance in that with, say, Freeman always being the wing that was closest to the ball and coming off his wing to be a distributor and Pollock always being the open side wing. which is quite smart. But getting Pollock scores the try.

20:46Charlie: Getting all reels out, brilliant. Yeah, yeah. I'm either carrying into traffic or passing, cheers. But no, they, yeah, as I say, they back that plan really well. But yeah, that's, it depends. I would be very interested over the next, however, test matches it is now, and it's not very many, to see how, whether Furbank gets a bit of game time at 10. Maybe that could come this week. And I think... Yeah, that's key to that decision, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. They'd have to be able to trust, or not trust because it's not like you don't trust him but Have to see it. Have to see Furback who has played 10 for England he started a test match for England at 10 to know that he is your backup 10 within the 23 and then that opens up other options.

21:27I'd said I do think that I imagine it's Japan one of Marchant or Will Joseph will be in the team for the Japan game.

21:35Charlie: Will Joseph was travelling reserve seemingly ahead of Marcus sorry seemingly ahead of Marchant. And that extra pace would definitely add a different dimension to the England 15 or 23. And ordinarily, I would go Henry Slade would be the one who would be in trouble. But it's actually, it's so nice to see him playing the best international rugby of his career at the moment, not just on Sunday, but he was very good in Argentina as well. Like, it feels like he's just now quietly authoritative, some incredible touches defensively so intelligent so important to what England do he'd won a lot he missed out on that last World Cup he won a lot of caps without imposing himself yeah feels like he is now doing that it's so nice to see

22:21Alfie: you mentioned him missing out on the last World Cup he could be a player that we look back on the Steve Borthwick tenure and he had the most mental time under Borthwick because he missed out on 23 then he got partnered with Lawrence and they were the most cap centre partnership England have ever had then he dropped out of the team again and now he's back and he's winning Man of the Match awards and playing great. It's kind of like, he must be there like, where do I fit into it?

22:41Charlie: He went from missing the World Cup squad to leading an entirely new defensive system. So it was like one of the, it was like, we don't need him. Jeez, we really need him. Yeah. Yeah, then we don't need him again. Then we need, I think one thing that maybe goes a bit overlooked with him is, I think his personality really suits bringing the best out of other players somehow and his maybe manner on the field. It's just that, that composure and almost a understated way of playing and I think it is I agree really nice to see that coming I think he's got more authority in this team than he's had in previous iterations of England teams and then that just lends he's a sort of quiet leader who if there's other loud people around him might not force himself into the conversation but if you allow him the authority he shares how influential he can be and he's playing fantastically well he was awesome on Sunday really really sorry Charlie go really quickly just talk about 12 I know he spoke about it in the in the post-match pod but when I whizzed through the game, a couple of things I saw that Steve Borthwick will need to replicate from whoever comes in at 12.

23:44Charlie: So Atkinson's, it was Atkinson's choke tackle on Suri Liti. It was Slade that got across first, but it's Atkinson that comes in there. And that kind of typified, he does a lot, he gets through a lot of defensive graft and that's over the ground. It's also on the floor. He really kind of facilitates the back row with how hard he competes on the floor. So I think that is one thing that they're gonna be mindful of. Whoever they bring in at 12 is going to have to graft a hell of a lot without the ball to set up those opportunities on it. Which doesn't bode well for Max Ojoomo. They're not confident that that's the best part of his game.

24:16And it's definitely the best part of Atkinson's game. It's the thing that Bootho has talked a lot about, the value he brings off the ball, the work that he gets through. Obviously classy with the ball, but they see in Max Ojoomo a real attacking threat as being his strength. but less so the areas you just described.

24:35Alfie: Well, we'll see what England go with in terms of selection. We'll also see about the severity of Manny Fabio-Boso's injury. The second part, actually, of Alex's email was, is Fabio-Boso the new Tua Lange, a player who raises the level when in the team but one who you can only treat as nice to have rather than a critical component given his injury record? Such an interesting question because he's integral to what they want to do attack-wise. One of about six awesome questions. Yeah, we appreciate it.

25:01Charlie: Thank you for doing our features ideas list for the week. That's really, really handy. That's good.

25:06Alfie: Yeah, that's really, really good. Yeah, well, look, we spoke about it yesterday, didn't we? We were all just like, oh, man, Manny Ferry. But he's so good when you see him in an England jersey. He struggles to stay fit and he is so important to England. That was harsh, that. I mean, that wasn't his body breaking down on him. No, no, I mean, we said it's through no fault of his own. It's just these incidents seem to be happening, don't they? Which is so frustrating. Look, we'll have a really quick break. We'll come back in shortly and we'll look ahead to the games coming up this weekend. But up next, 2003 World Cup winner Neil Back joins the pod.

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27:15Alfie: Well, Neil, welcome on to The Rutt. Great to have you with us. How are you? Really good, thank you. Especially after yesterday's performance. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, well, we've just been speaking about that. We were all at Twickenham for the game, kind of digesting it. And actually, Alex was looking back to the Clive Woodward tenure, your team in 03 and talking about the building blocks he put in place a long way out from the World Cup in 2003. And it's got us thinking, what do this England team do you think need to do in terms of building for that World Cup next year? And where do you see them in their progress?

27:53Well, last year I was in a much happier place when they went on a run of victories. I mean, this year prior to Australia, three wins from eight was not great. I think we got away to a good start against Wales. No disrespect to them, but that was an expected result. But then I think we focused on the final game being France and forgot about those games in between, which went wrong for us. And I think they've looked at those games and looked at what went well. And obviously, importantly, those things that didn't go particularly well. And I think they identified that the defence, they were missing too many tackles and also their discipline.

28:43When you concede more than 10 penalties in a single game, it's putting huge pressure on you. And that suddenly mounts to yellow cards, red cards. And over the eight games prior to Australia, we received 14 yellow cards and a red card. So it was just too much. You don't win test matches playing like that. So I think they've addressed those areas. I was really impressed. I think they looked cool, calm, collected. They had a game plan, which they stuck to. And they did what I hoped they'd do. the top four teams in the world crushed their opposition in this round of the Nations Championship and England did exactly the same against Australia I guess that's really important isn't it Neil that England have got a record under Steve Borthwick of doing well against teams ranked around them the next phase of their development is to go and start punching upwards and they'll have that chance in a couple of weeks time against the All Blacks beat the All Blacks last year.

29:49That's the next stage, isn't it? It is. Let's not do what we did in the Six Nations. Ignore those teams in between because every game is a stepping stone and what you've got to do, you've got to have the same attitude and focus for that game. I remember, you know, I captained four times for England and one of those games was against Romania and everyone thinks, what are you going to do? the expected results. And we sort of created a white line mentality in that training week that our standards were going to be as high as if we were playing the best teams in the world. And once we scored a try, we got back, reset and went again.

30:35We won that game 134-0. You know, you can't avoid three pointers because penalties are given, it's on a peg and they kick it between the poles. But tries you can manage. And that was a crucial game. So let's not forget what we can learn and develop that winning mentality. And winning conceptive games brings confidence and belief. And that's what we've got to do at the moment. England and Australia are teams that can beat anyone on their day. But what they can't do at the moment, I haven't proven, they can beat the best teams in the world consistently. and that's what you need to do to win a Nations Championship or a World Cup.

31:18One of the things that England have changed since the end of the Six Nations to now is the balance of their back row, Neil. They were operating with three sevens, if you like. I think Ben Earl is in commanding form at eight, but they're now playing the biggest six with a jackaling seven. Do you think that's the right balance for their back row? How do you see that area of England's game at the moment? Yeah, 100%. That is the right way to go because previously, you know, I love seeing three sevens on there, but, you know, you're missing a line out and you're missing that sort of extra ball carrier that gets across the game line.

32:00So, you know, I thought Chesung, you know, is a good lock, is a good number six. He carries the ball. He scored a try yesterday. His work rate was incredible. And the balance of the back row, I would like to see now the next step for me. I'd like to see Pollock started. You know, I think, you know, I think he's played 13 games now. He's scored, I don't know, how many tries he did, eight tries now or something like that. So I think we need to see him in the team. And I'd have Cheson, Pollock at seven and Earl at eight. And I'd like to see how that functions. And maybe that'd be, you know, thinking a game ahead, that might happen against New Zealand.

32:45Alfie: So Pollock in the back row though, Neil, just to clarify, I didn't know if he's starting on the wing after what we saw at Twickenham yesterday. Well, yeah. Well, Pollock, when you play 6-2 bench, You've got to hope you don't lose one or two backs in the first half. You've got to pray that happens. And if it does, then you can utilise that 6-2 split. They have to put the policon on the wing. But as he said, the team, the players around him, made the job easy for him because they're continually telling him where he needs to be, what he needs to do. And he finished off two tries that a winger would have.

33:23or let's face it, I think anyone in the back row, England have got about 10 back rows at the minute, they can pick three and they'd do well. So, you know, they'd have finished up those opportunities, but you've got to be there, right place, listen to the players around you. And he did an incredible job. You know, he's quick, but I think against the best wingers in the world, best teams in the world, you need to play in that position and in some position, because if you're thinking what you should be doing, it's often too late. at the top level. So he did a job and he's proved he can step in there.

33:59But, you know, against South Africa, New Zealand, France, teams like that, Ireland, he'd be found out.

34:06Charlie: Neil, you mentioned the concept of balance when you're talking about selection of a back row. What do England need to be mindful of if they are going to start Henry Pollock as far as balancing and covering bases around him? Well, I think it depends on the team you're playing and their strengths. to be honest with you but if we're thinking about beating the best teams in the world you need balance in there I think he could fulfil that role at seven alongside Erlen Chesom, unfortunately we can't call on the Willis brothers but that's a story and a conversation for another day the balance there would be I'd like to see, I think it can do it, play 80 minutes Pollock the best players in the world start and finish games.

34:54I think he's proved enough now that he's got the quality, is a great player at the minute. There's areas that he needs to work on and he'll sort of freely admit that himself. He's not the Finnish article, but he's heading in the right direction. I think we need to see before the World Cup next year whether he is that 80-minute player.

35:18Alfie: Well, he's the sort of player that makes things happen as well, isn't he? As you say, his tri-scoring record for a guy that hasn't been starting. He's made an impact in the games we've seen. I'm sure many of the fans as well, Neil, would back you there in wanting to see him start. We should say as well that you're joining us thanks to Rugby World Cup Experiences, which is the official provider of ticket, inclusive travel and hospitality for the Rugby World Cup next year. Speaking of that, looking ahead to Australia, I mean, it must bring back memories for you, doesn't it? Of 2003, the World Cup heading back there to where you had that famous victory.

35:49Yeah, you know, it's incredible that it's been 23 years. Every four years, I'm hoping they can do it again. They got close in 2007. But if they'd have won that to my show at the time, with the sort of build up to that, it would have been, yeah, a bit of a surprise. But it was like a boot against the line away. You know, it could have been given and we could have won it. But, you know, question was asked earlier, what have they got to do? What they've got to do now is do what they should do against Japan. And then 12 months out from the World Cup, when we played New Zealand in the autumn, as well as Australia and South Africa, we beat all three of them.

36:34You know, we beat them at home. And then in the summer prior to the World Cup, we went to Australia, New Zealand, and beat them on their own backyard. So this is what the team has got to do now. We may get to the final of this Nations Championship. I don't think we will be. I think potentially France or Ireland may be slightly ahead of us. But if we can get four wins out of this game, it will make the start of a very difficult Six Nations next year where our first game is Ireland away. so if we go there with a winning track record we've got more chance of winning that game because winning brings confidence and belief in the squad and in a World Cup year we certainly set our goals as winning the Grand Slam all five games that year our last game was Ireland, they wanted to knock us off the cart like other teams had the previous three years but we we beat them 42 two points to six and like we just kicked on from there we ran into the world cup i mean won 15 out 16 games on the bounce lost game 15 against france 17 16 and then put 45 points on them the following week with a sort of starting team so but that loss was it grounded the whole squad and it was the best thing that happened if we'd have gone in 16 out 16 at that level.

38:09It only takes one person to think they're better than they are and that can go awry. So that defeat meant a lot. We look back on that and didn't want it to happen again. After the East Midlands derby a couple of weeks ago, we were on the pod talking about Oli Chesson. Stuart Barnes was on with us and he said that Oli is sort of cut from the same cloth as the Dean Richards and the Martin Johnson. There is no new Martin Johnson and Oli's doing it in his own way, but I can see what Barnsley means about the kind of cussed impact that a leader like that can have, the importance of someone of that character going into a big tournament.

38:51Jono, obviously, for you guys, do you see those similar traits in a player like Oli Chesson and the importance of him in this England team? I do. I went to Welford Road to watch that game. Look, he is similar to Jono, similar stature in terms of size and weight, etc. He's got a great engine on him. He's a physical player. He's a no-nonsense player. And he seems like he understands the game. And good players like Dean Richards, Jono, know where to be. Jono was a bit of an athlete. Dean Richards, he'll say it himself. He wasn't the quickest, he wasn't an athlete, but he was tremendously strong and he just knew where to be.

39:40Jono's mother was an ultra-American runner. Jono wasn't the fastest on the pitch, but he could run that fast all day. So he'd run, he'd do work, he'd recover really quickly and go again and again and again. And Chesum seems to be that player. I did like his leadership when he was sort of escorting opposition players off the field. It's exactly what Dono would have done back then. So, yeah, I see a lot of similarities.

40:12Alfie: Neil, look, we'll let you go. But I think we're all intrigued to see how we can look for the rest of this November and looking forward to that World Cup in a year's time. So thanks for your time and all the best. OK, cheers, guys. Thank you. Awesome. Neil back joining us there. Quick break. Next up, we'll finish by looking ahead to the matches coming up this weekend. Okay, so final section of the pod. I think there's only one place to start when looking ahead to this weekend coming up. Charlie, Alex, France, South Africa. Is this still the game of November, Charlie? France with a few injuries, which makes life tougher for them?

40:49Charlie: Yeah, I think so. Until we get to the, well, certainly game of this weekend. I think England All Blacks will be very tasty as well. And then we're into the finals weekend, aren't we? But yeah, it's felt like the one that has been circled from the furthest out. The injuries compromise France, certainly. But I would say that they were more, they were impressive because Fiji were, I thought they were just far more assured and sort of accurate than they had been in July. And France put them away really easily. What they do at 10 is fascinating, I think. Whether it's going to be Leucou with DuPont at nine.

41:25Charlie: I mean, DuPont getting another crack at the spring box is great though after that, obviously the World Cup quarterfinal and how that ended and his press conference afterwards, which you all remember as being slightly tetchy, clearly with emotions running high. So, yeah, that's going to be cool.

41:40Alfie: Should be good, Alex, isn't it? I mean, that is one of those games that we've all had circled for quite a while. I do. It'd be wonderful if they were both at full strength. South Africa would just name their team as we're recording and they are stacked. as Charlie says like France it'd be lovely if we knew they were going in with at least one of Jalbert or Untermac feels like they might pick Maxine Leucou at 10 and have him dovetailing with Dupont which in any other country would never be a consideration I mean England wouldn't look to pick Ben Spencer at 10 but in France there's just a trust that you think that actually could work for them and I hope it does because for the competition for everything we talked about earlier I'd love this game to be the belter that it really could be and injuries are part and parcel of it but I think Friday night in Paris that atmosphere there'll be a belief among the French that they can do it and like all through the summer when I was in South Africa with Charlie for the England game and then back for the All Blacks there was just this feeling of like well the greatest rivalry is massive South Africa, New Zealand is huge who are the European teams who could challenge the box.

42:56And we felt that France, with the power they have, the athletes they have, and their ability to play, to move the ball, to attack with pace, could really challenge the spring box. Obviously, there's now this asterisk of injuries, but certainly in terms of style and mindset and the make-up of their team, they'll have the athletes to do it. I just hope they've got the quality on the night to deliver.

43:26Charlie: Yeah, I feel like on more than one occasion, we were sort of watching the greatest rivalry from our vantage point here in Europe and going, holding up France as the sort of European side that could mix it with them. But I think always we did say with the caveat, if they are fully loaded, if they have Miafu, Jalbert, you know, these guys are real difference makers for them. It will be really interesting. If they can make a statement for themselves, France, If they really mix it with South Africa, take them deep and even win that game, albeit at home with that advantage, if they do that with the names that they've got out, that's a big marker for them ahead of the World Cup too.

44:00Alfie: I guess that's how you bill it from a French perspective, right? Is we know that teams are probably going to have to go through the All Blacks or the Box to win the World Cup. And, you know, some teams are on a better side of the draw so they're a bit luckier. But you may have to do that without some of your frontline players. Like from a French perspective, it's like, all right, that's the challenge. Yes, they have been decimated at 10, which is such a key area, but that's your challenge. You might have to do that. You want to win a World Cup, well, you might have to do it without some of your best players.

44:27Alfie: So there you go. Go out and prove it.

44:29Charlie: Just had Neil back on talking about sort of flagship results from the England side ahead of the 2003 World Cup. And I think that's the same for every World Cup cycle. And I think one of the, maybe if, you know, off the top of your head, you think about the Springboks last time, them absolutely battering the All Blacks at Twickenham with a 7-1 bench felt like a real seminal moment. of we're here to retain our crown. This is how we're going to do it. We're going to load up on forward power. And to look at it the other way, this would be, if France are going to challenge in Australia, this would be a fantastic week to put together a performance that gives them confidence going ahead.

45:06Alfie: Yeah, well, Alex mentioned the Springbok team and yeah, stacked is the right word to use there, isn't it? I mean, Ethan Hooker's at 11. Chez and Colby, if he was fit, would probably start there in his place. But really strong Springbok team. Hanekom and Paul de Villiers as part of a 6-2 bench split.

45:24Charlie: They've got 13 caps between them, right? I think it's relatively inexperienced. But we just know from watching them in the URC and the Champions Cup a bit as well, they are utter dogs. Like, real. They're going to bring so much impact from that. I would say Hooker is amazing on chasing box kicks. He really gave Italy a torrid time and was really impressive, I thought, during the Greater Struggle Series as well. So what did we speak about in the first part of this is Springboks are at a point where not only are they sort of broadening their player pool with giving people test experience, but because they've got the fixed kind of excellence in place and the experience in place, these players are hitting the ground running.

46:08Charlie: And those are three really good examples there, actually. And the opportunity for statement result applies to them. Yeah, yeah. A year out for the World Cup, they'll play New Zealand again. They obviously beat them in the greatest rivalry. They'll play them again next year. They won't meet France again until a potential World Cup semi-final. So this is another occasion for them to make a statement. Yeah. I was just going to say, it feels like they can really leave Europe in flames in the next three weeks.

46:37Alfie: Was it kind of like last year when they went to Dublin and just scrummed Ireland into the dirt? It was like, we are here to, we don't, it's not about building a score. It is about just destroying your will. And you feel like we could see something similar. This is all back to where we talked about before of like, how is Razzie framing everything? Go and set challenges. That day was, and I'm sure we'll talk about it next week ahead of the Ireland game. But that day they could have won that match on the scoreboard way more comfortably. But it became a unique game that it didn't become about the scoreboard because they were winning it in the scrum and Ireland were just left in the dust.

47:13And it was a remarkable game, the way that it unfolded with the props coming on early and then Ireland having props in the sim bin. But it was another statement and that's what feels like the box are out to do. Which is what makes this Friday night game so compelling because it's really important for France to not just crumble and blame the injuries. It's really important. It's equally as big for South Africa on their march towards the Third World Cup, on their Third World Cup quest.

47:42Alfie: Yeah, I hope it lives up to the billing. So France, South Africa, Friday night. Then across the rest of the weekend, Italy, Argentina, Wales, New Zealand, England, Japan, Ireland, Fiji and Scotland, Australia. Maybe mention the last game there, Scotland, Australia. Big week for both of those sides after losses, quite different losses, but both coming off the back of a defeat.

48:00Charlie: Yeah, it felt like Harry Wilson's focus was shifting to that very quickly because I think the man, however long it was, perhaps about an hour after the final whistle, he was very immediately aware that Australia had been very poor in that game. And someone said, are you going to get a response? And he said, we kind of have to because we've been that poor. They'll start, surely they'll start Valentini. I don't think they'll try and load their 23 that way again because they lost the gain line comprehensively at Twickenham and that led to a lot of their problems as we've already spoken about. So that has to be fixed.

48:36Charlie: But Scotland will be looking for a response as well and they've had good wins over the Wallabies historically. I felt they loaded their back row like that with Jeremy Williams at six purely because of the ball and the law changes there and it didn't help them in any way. England still marched them back within five minutes to score another mall try which was a feature of you asked at the start, Alfie Bout, this weekend. It's very rare, and this is a kind of unique style of competition, but you have laws changing mid competition. But that's what's happened since July. We've got the hip drop tackle laws come in.

49:13We saw that in action at Twickenham, and they've tweaked the mall laws. Steve Borthick was saying in the buildup, was asking about it, and he's like, the balance of the game was fine. The mall was well balanced between attack and defence. And as I said it in my submissions to World Rugby, I said the balance is fine. They've changed the balance. And so it was absolutely no surprise to me whatsoever that England's first try came that way. Australia was set up clearly with that in mind. It did them no good. It didn't stop England, but also, as Charlie said, denied them what Valentini can bring, what we saw him do when he was playing against the Lions.

49:53the carrying the gain on impact he can have so they need him in the team I think against Scotland and Delga they were the point to prove I think Scotland it's a big game for them too because you know they lived with the All Blacks for a half but couldn't see it out but this is a game that Scotland will think they can win and we're interested to know when the bookies come out with the odds and the margins how they pitch it but I think Scotland go into that favourites

50:18Alfie: I would have thought so yeah on the driving rules as well I do fear that this is going to become an increasingly big talking point as we build up to the World Cup. And then once we get to the World Cup... Well, they may just have to calm it down again, World Rugby. If it becomes... I've been on this pod with Barnsley, and he's arguing that they should be banned from the game. I absolutely didn't agree with him on that because they provide a balance. And what you want in the game is, as the attacking team, it's part of your armoury. But now, as we've seen it in the Prem increasingly... certainly seen it in URC and now we've seen it this weekend that it's so hard to stop it legally that the balance has shifted too far and so the concession of a penalty on halfway suddenly becomes incredibly damaging because as long as you get your line-out throw accurate now, now the team is sort of almost semi-competing to just do enough to force the throw to be straight, they're more often than not, they're going to score from it and the game is supposed to be a contest, an evenly balanced contest, and it doesn't feel like it's quite there at the moment with them all.

51:29Charlie: It's going to change to one stop use it, I predict, rather than two stops.

51:33Alfie: Should have happened years ago that, by the way.

51:35Charlie: I think, have they not trialled it at under 20? They've trialled it somewhere, I'm fairly sure, and I think that's because that's the way that they keep preserving the contest as they say they're doing with these tweaks while sort of depowering them all a little bit.

51:48Alfie: I agree totally. I think that would make sense, I think, because there's too much leeway given to the attacking team in that situation. Elsewhere, Ireland-Fiji, I think we're probably expecting an Ireland win. I thought, as I said earlier, from an attacking sense, they looked good against Argentina. Fiji better than we saw them in the summer, which I know is a low bar. Very low bar.

52:07Charlie: Yeah. Yeah, very low bar. Jake White coming in for a crack at a World Cup is a very interesting subplot with them. You know, the hallmarks of his coaching style are pragmatism. So how that marries with a side with all that attacking flares, very interesting. Nathan Hughes caught the eye actually for them against France. Just a hell of a lot of biff as ever. So yeah, that'll be fun to watch too.

52:31Alfie: Where else do we want to go? So it's Wales, New Zealand. That's a tough test for the Welsh against the All Blacks. Italy and Argentina are actually looking to respond after really disappointing opening weekends. And as we've spoken about already, Alex, England, Japan. We expect Steve Borthwick to probably shuffle his pack. By the time people listen to this, I'd imagine the England team could be out possibly. Are they going early this week? I'd expect they'll go early this week. I imagine he'll name it on Tuesday. He was sort of trailing some of his thoughts immediately post-match on Sunday night.

53:02I think Neil Backerby get his a wish. I think Henry Pollock may well start at seven this week. Will Joseph, as we said, probably come into the team? He's not going to... He won't want to change it loads. That's just not his style. he's big on I guess evolution just tweaks here and there rest certain players which is important I wouldn't be surprised if Ellis Genge drops out this week he was supposed to be rested in the summer wasn't because they were short on options he's the kind of player I can imagine stepping back for a week but you know he won't want to overhaul the team but he'll want to give opportunities to a few to see a bit like you said earlier I feel like you're going to have to understand what players can do in different positions.

53:48So yeah, I think that, you know, you look at how many, was it 30 ,000 in Cardiff? England have sold out this game or near as damn it. And it's a different crowd, family crowd. So the kids will enjoy getting there, see Henry Pollock playing seven is what I reckon is going to happen.

54:04Charlie: Watching Henry Pollock at the weekend, you knew it was a big theme of your match report, which I think was beautifully sort of done. But watching the back end of Joe Mahler's career at Harlequins, I always felt like you were watching a comedian sort of try out new material for 80 minutes while he was still good enough at scrummaging to absolutely batter whoever was scrummaging against him and still thumping people around the pitch. I got that same feeling watching Henry Pollock and it wasn't, that's not a criticism of talk. It was like this guy just so obviously having fun while doing it and I know yeah people think he's an acquired taste but it was really difficult to not to watch that and just smile.

54:40Charlie: It was a guy really in the purest sense enjoying what he was doing.

54:46Alfie: Yeah. So England, Japan will be there on Saturday. We'll be podding afterwards and we'll also have another pod coming your way later on this week on Thursday where we'll look ahead to that but we'll also look ahead to plenty of the other action coming up this weekend. Boys, we know what the week looks like. Are you going to Paris? Yeah, I'm off to Paris Thursday. Good gig that, isn't it? Going to the game Friday night. Be class, fly straight back to get Twickenham on Saturday for the Japan game. So busy, week would be great. It's a good one.

55:10Charlie: Yeah, that's me. Twicking him full steam ahead. Potentially a couple of Penny Hill shuttles this week as well. And seeing Eddie, hopefully, as well at some point.

55:18Alfie: Yeah, of course. See if Eddie throws any grenades out there this week to keep things interesting. We'll wait and see. Thank you to all of you that have been watching this episode of the pod Timesport on YouTube. Do go and subscribe if you haven't already. And thanks for all of you for listening. If you do want to get in touch, then the email address is theruckatthetimes.co.uk. We'll be back with you on Thursday.

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