Rain-soaked Prem thrills, Borthwick's squad and Mitchell's England dilemma

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1:17Alfie: Hello, hello. Welcome everyone to the Ruck, the rugby podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. I'm Alfie Reynolds and coming up we've got a wet and windy round of Prem action to get into. an England training squad ahead of the November internationals and what is going on, another defeat for the Red Roses alongside me in studio. To pick through all of that, Alex Lowe. Hi, Alex. Hello. How are you? I'm all right now, thank you. Been a few weeks. My advice to everyone is if you're going to hire an e-bike up in London, make sure it's in full working order, otherwise it will throw you off like a grand national rider.

1:53Alfie: Yeah, if anyone has been wondering, where's Alex Lowe been on the ruck? that somewhat of an injury after falling off one of those bikes, but you're good. You're back. You're ready for November. The broken ribs are healing. OK, good. And an interesting week in the past seven days, but we'll get to that in just a second. Also in studio with us, Elgin Olderman. All right, Elgin? Yes, very well, thank you. How are you doing, Alfie? I am very well, thank you. Loads to unpick as ever. And joining us from the Wilshire studios, a very good morning to Stuart Barnes. All right, Barnsie? Yeah, very well, Alfie.

2:19Alfie: Good, good. Look, Alex, should we start off with your last week? So you were actually on holiday, probably having a lovely time with the family, and then out of nowhere, your phone starts going berserk. Do you want to pick up the story from there? Yeah, we were in Cappadocia. We'd come off the beautiful hot air balloons, and my phone lit up. First message from a mate going, are you OK, mate? I've just seen the Saracen statement. I was like, what is going on? Anyway, I'd written a piece designed to shine a light on everything that's been going on at the club, particularly behind the scenes where there's been a lot of executive churn in the last couple of years.

2:55Edouard Kutzi has now come in as the third chief exec in two years. And I was just highlighting that it's not been a particularly well-run or functioning club. And my first version I wrote was, well, it was really punchy. But I spoke to Ed Kutzi because I wanted it to be balanced. I wanted to include his perspective as a relatively new CEO who recognised a lot of the mistakes that the club have made in terms of communications, ironically, in terms of leadership. And he gave a positive view of the future, of how he wanted to lead the club, fix some of the problems, and I guess make the club what it was in their heyday, which was they weren't loved by everyone around the Prem, but he spoke to other players around the Prem at the time, and they were envious of Saracens.

3:47Alfie: They were admired, weren't they, for a lot of reasons. Of the environment they had. It was a people-first club. So I filed a piece, which I felt was pretty balanced. It was punchy, but it also gave Saracens their chance to recognise what had gone wrong and explain how they were going to get things better. Filed it, forgot about it, went on holiday. And then a few days later, Saracens put out a pretty bizarre statement, the latest in a run of odd comms decisions from the club, which ironically, all it did was reinforce everything that I'd written. And they ran through a load of achievements under Ed Kertzeer, who hadn't been a target of criticism from me.

4:31Although what I'm told, a lot of those achievements are part of regular business. But nevertheless, they're achievements. That's fine. I spoke to Ed he didn't mention any of them to me but that's fine too they obviously named me in the statement again right at the start

4:48Alfie: of the statement I criticised them so they can name me if they want but the weird thing was that quite often I think you see it with Man City fans at the moment like they're in the in the crosshairs as a club a lot of Man City fans are instinctively behind their club now I don't support Man City if I was a Man City fan I'd actually be fuming about the management of the club and interestingly the reaction from Saracen's fans was frustration that they had stuck out this rather bizarre statement when actually what the fans care about is what's happening on the field. And of course, I was at the Stoop on Sunday and what happened on the field was another show, was woeful, was a shambolic performance really from Saracen.

5:27So it's been a lively week between myself and the club, but I had people messaging me on socials going, oh, well, Alex Lowe, you hate Saracen's anywhere. That isn't true. And there are people within the club who I know personally and players and coaches who I have reported on and covered and spoken to regularly, who I admire hugely as individuals and as players and coaches. And there are staff there who I respect enormously. It's just that as an entity, it's been off the rails for a couple of years.

6:02Alfie: Well, an interesting week, a holiday you won't forget. Indeed. But I agree with you. Actually, the thing I found really interesting is what you mentioned there. Often you see clubs and fans batten down the hatches. Everyone's against us. Fans quite like embracing that mentality. A lot of the reaction from Saracen's fans that I've seen has actually been the total opposite to that. I said, what are you doing? What is this statement? This is embarrassing. So let's see how they get on. And we'll come on to the game that you're at at the stoop. but they weren't good. Can I also make a point as we are, this is a podcast of journalists, that it's very easy for executives in the game, people in the game in general, to not want scrutiny.

6:41I go back to the 2016 England tour of Australia. Ian Ritchie was the RFU chief exec at the time who had made a point during that tour having read all the Australian newspapers and found very little rugby union in it. He said when we were down there that we may not always like what you write. We may not like the questions and the scrutiny, but at least you care. At least you're covering the game. And we've got colleagues at the Telegraph this week who have been laid off because that paper is clearly shrinking its sports department. I just think the game needs to be careful what it wants because what's happening at the Telegraph is awful.

7:18It's awful for all of us as an industry. It's actually really bad just from a narrow rugby perspective. I think it's really bad for rugby. and I don't mind having a to and fro with Saracens over it. There's no hard feelings. It's just what I feel, just what I saw. But to undermine or try and undermine the idea that a national newspaper has an agenda covering a sport is wrong. They should recognise the importance of people being interested in the sport. Go back to what Ian Ritchie said in 16. At least people care. I understand they may not have liked what they wrote, but at least we were writing it.

7:53Alfie: At least you're writing it. And you'll know this better than me, Alex, but I know loads of you that have covered England for a long time and World Cups and tours and things like that. It's very noticeable that the press pack that follows England has been shrinking, which, as you say, you might not like what people write, but that is not a good thing for the sport. And all those other great pods out there will very often base their conversations, their insight on news that is generated by traditional outlets. Absolutely. Important. Totally. And look, I think that's a really important point to make.

8:21Alfie: Shall we get on to the action on the pitch? Because Derby weekend, I mean, Barnsley, let's come to you on this first. But Derby weekend delivered, didn't it? We got some cracking games, affected by the conditions, of course, but a lot of really intriguing matches played. Fascinating, yeah. I think Leicester's second half performance was outstanding. I think Gloucester's defence was outstanding. I thought Harlequins took a very big leap. and yeah, it was good, but we can't take it out of the context of the week before. We mustn't get carried away with the fact that the English clubs only won one game out of eight, but we mustn't get carried away that we didn't have tries, that we had thunder and blood, but that was one weekend and only one weekend And what we saw, you know, we can't just say, right, well, that was good.

9:17We didn't get much in the way of attacking rugby. Funnily enough, I thought Gloucester played some superb rugby with a ball in hand, but they didn't get much of it. So if you were prem rugby and you were into marketing the sport, you would say after the week before and after the Northampton Bath game and the avalanche of tries in the early weeks, a weekend of wind and rain was perfect it pulled the scores down and it made people because people have they've gone from saying oh you know you've got generation z i'm told love tries and excitement you go to bristol that's what they seem to want now we've got so much of that that people don't want that anymore and we didn't get it we did get exciting rugby we got um intensity we got the other side of the game that we haven't seen maybe in the first three weeks, the Premiership.

10:11So overall, it was good. Yeah.

10:13Alfie: I think it links back to and we had that conversation a couple of weeks ago on the pod after that crazy Northampton Bath game of is this good for the game? Is this what people want to see? And I think we made the point on that pod that it's about variety. Yes, some of the attacking rugby, the tries being scored is great. But if that's what you're getting every single weekend, then it just it doesn't quite have the same impact. And I really enjoyed this weekend and actually you can make the argument that some of the rugby on display wasn't that great because there were mistakes all over the place there were dropped high balls when people were under no pressure because of the conditions but actually it meant it was really really compelling and the great thing about the sport is it's about variety.

10:49Elgan: Very much Phil Dowson the Northampton director of rugby who has obviously faced a lot of these questions because Northampton are the team that won 71-48 in the game and he'll say that he said that afterwards after the Cardiff game in Europe, which was a bit more of a wet and windy affair. And he said, you know, it's all about variety. We don't get 71-48 games every week. The fact that that was the second highest total there had ever been shows that, you know, it's not 119 points every week. If anything, I thought there were still too many points for the wet and windy. I loved the 8-3 that was that Bristol Exeter last season.

11:20Elgan: The 8-3 is a much better score than I thought. But one of the things I particularly enjoyed seeing was, and it's the thing that because there are fewer penalties than in previous seasons is that the age of the long distance goal kicker that just steps up for one every now and again because there's so few penalties we had Freddie Stewart stepping up for that 50 meter penalty I think it's only the third penalty or conversion he's ever kicked for Leicester and six years after the last one so that was my highlight of the highlight of the weekend Freddie Stewart stepping up out of nowhere to send it over from 50 meters things you love to see well you were

11:53Alfie: at Welford Road Barnsley and I mean the thing that got a lot of traction and interest here was the bust up at half-time. And I suppose if I'm trying to ask a sensible question off the back of it, is did that ultimately help Leicester? It's what everyone's talking about from the game, but did it actually, was it an advantage to the Tigers all the scenes at half-time? Yeah, when you play at Welford Road, that can be a million years ago, like when I played and you get smoke on the water in the changing room beforehand. There's an intensity and there's a psychological intimidation or there's an attempt to one.

12:26and to win at Leicester you have to go there and you have to face that. Now Northampton you've got to remember were 8-7 up though it hadn't been a good game. There'd been a lot of errors. The scrums were slippery. They weren't the Leicester dominance we would get in the second half. Line-outs were a lottery. So Northampton were really in this game and then we got this bust up. It was pushing and shoving and it was a bit silly and thank God it wasn't the era of a proper punch-up but that moment when Pollock, when he stopped and he bent down to tie his shoelaces knowing he was just going to cause this log jam of pressure, it was just so stupid and Chessham gave him this shove and he went down again and Chessham shoved him again and the roar at Welford Road was incredible.

13:18It had been noisy in the first half. From that moment on, when they came out for the start of the second half till the 80th minute, every decision that was greeted Leicester's way was cheered and roared. Everything that went against Northampton, it was 25 ,000 and every one of them was screaming. It was primal. And I believe that was instigated by that incident. That's what happens in some rugby matches. You have to, if you're the home team, you've got to get the crowd on your side. It does lift you. If you're the away team, you don't do anything stupid to really just give an incentive for not just the team, but for the crowd.

13:57And I felt that Pollock and his silly petty act really did lift Leicester. And in the second half, fair dues to Leicester. May I say I thought they played the best 40 minutes of playing rugby this season. It wasn't pretty, but it was accurate. Their set piece was superb. I saw Fraser Dingwall after the game, and he just looked glazed and he said, he said, we didn't win one collision. We didn't win a turnover. We didn't win a tackle. We didn't win a breakdown. And he was absolutely right. And that's why he ended up with a 25-0 scoreline in the second half. Northampton were poor, but I'm giving credit for Leicester.

14:38They played what was perfect Leicester wet-weather rugby.

14:42Alfie: And when Will and I went to see them last week, Oli Chesson, when we asked him why he'd been a little bit grumpy, he was really not happy with what they'd produced in Europe. and, well, he was kind of front and centre of a lot of that result at the weekend. It's interesting to me that Henry Pollock and Alex, we've been, I think, on the pod pretty consistent in positivity about Henry Pollock and is bursting onto the scene. A lot of the good stuff he brings to the game, both in terms of on the pitch and some of the off-pitch stuff as well. It does strike me, though, that the two major blots on his copybook are away to Leicester Tigers at Welford Road in that derby from last season and then at the weekend.

15:16There's a couple of things on that. So Barnsley there talking about Fraser Dingwall saying we didn't win any collisions, we didn't win the physical battle. Pollock isn't going to drive that on his own. He needs the lads around him to help set a platform for him. So it's often why the balance they have in that Saints back row usually really works for him. So Pearson and Kemeny, who can be the sort of the henchmen and allow Pollock to do his bit, if Saints aren't winning those collisions, it's much harder for Pollock to affect the game. And I think Barnsley wrote about that in the paper on Monday.

15:50I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall at the England team hotel on Sunday night. The squad have come back in for a camp. And really because last year's game at Welford Road ended with Pollock histrionics, but then Oli Chesson pulling him to one side on the field and clearly having a word with him. And that day did actually, I think Pollock listened that day because he finished the season from that day magnificently well. And then it was the two of them again on the weekend clashing. And I really admire Oli Chesson as a leader. He's just in the Leicester Tigers mould as an enforcer captain.

16:29Elgan: He's a Titanic figure, isn't he, really? He seems like that. And he makes Henry Pollock look a bit like Scrappy Doo every time they come up against each other in a fight like that. It's quite entertaining to watch. But I wouldn't be at all surprised if when they get into camp on Sunday night, Monday, if the two of them aren't having another constructive conversation because Chessom is fast evolving into one of the most influential players in that England set-up. And if they want to get the best out of Pollock, which Northampton saw the back end of last season, it was his rugby doing the talking and nothing else.

17:01I was just going to say, Chessom, he's very much out of the school, the Leicester school, of Dean Richards as a leader and Martin Johnson as a leader. Now, in English rugby, you can't get more praise than that. And he is developing that way. There's no doubt about it. I remember the England's game in France last season. He was absolutely magnificent. And, you know, Maroua Toge will lead England into the World Cup and rightly so. That's the long term plan. After that, Chessham has to be a long way clear as favourite to captain England, the next England captain.

17:42Alfie: So Leicester 28, Northampton 7. Shall we get on to Gloucester, who continue their brilliant start to the season? Awesome game on Friday night as well. Gloucester 23, Bath 5. I think in your match report, Alex, after the draw with Bordeaux, you said Gloucester are the real deal. Well, this is further confirmation that this Gloucester team... I think so. I mean, I think that was my favourite game of the Prem season so far. The thrill that I had, just watching you on TV when Gloucester are down to 13, and however clunky and ineffective Bath might be in attack, it still took an enormous effort for Gloucester to not only keep them out with 13 men, but then go down and kick 3-6-9.

18:29And after the saccharine hit that we'd had in the early rounds of all the tries that we mentioned earlier, I was engrossed in that game. And what I loved about it was it's more than just a variety. It's the spirit and it's the togetherness that they showed. And I guess encapsulated by Jack Morgan, who's just taken to the prem by storm. He's been unbelievable. It's not a one-man effort at all at Gloucester, but he epitomises what the character of that team, someone like George Barton, who's pretty lightweight in physical terms, but is playing like a mammoth. His defence, his goal-kicking, his attack, And I loved it.

19:14Particularly that first half, I loved it more than I'd loved. I'd admired a lot of the skills that we'd seen earlier in the season, but I loved that first half. And Barnsley's right, they also played some really good rugby when they had the ball, and it was terrific. And it wasn't just the yin and yang of a contrast to what we'd seen before, but that is what we love about rugby. We want skills. And, you know, I was at the Stoupon on Sunday, and Harlequin's played some lovely stuff, but it was founded on a grit that they found. And we'll get to that. But the game needs both of those things. And basketball scores are kind of fun and fleeting, but what you want is the balance.

19:54I felt the Storm helped. I think defence coaches have probably gone, right, we need a bit more time with the lads this week. The Derby element helped. And I felt in so many of the games, and that Gosta won in particular, we've got this beautiful balance. between having to earn the right to show your skills and that spirit and that character that they showed in defence. For me, it was my favourite game of the season so far because of that. Sorry, can I just say on that one, Alex just said you've got to earn your right and it's a phrase that commentators and coaches use all the time. Well, I would say that Bath earned their right to go wide about 100 times, who's going phase after phase after phase, and said, you've earned the right, Bath.

20:41Had they played, as they did at Northampton when they were in the Northampton 22, they probably would have scored three tries in the first 25 minutes. They did nothing, and I'm taking nothing away from what was a glorious rearguard from Gloucester. But by God, it was ineptitude in Bath's case, and it's not the first time. And so everything about Gloucester was really good. And if Gloucester had got as much ball as Bath had got, they'd have got 70 points again. They'd have done a Northampton on Bath. But Bath are in a real mess at the moment. Why do you think that is, Barnsley? I would have thought that what happened to them at the end of that Prem semi-final, and I know they feel hard done by, they feel that Billy Sellers scored, they feel there were six offsides in the 41 phases that weren't given, but they could have just gone wide and scored a try and won that game.

21:33You'd have thought that that experience would have informed them against Gloucester when they were in a similar situation, but against 13 men. It seems to me that, remember before Exeter, Bath for about a month, six weeks, had been playing exactly the same way. They'd got obsessed with the Thomas Dutoy 50-minute impact substitution. And I think they thought they were the spring box playing in the Prem. You can't help but say it does look to me like the departure of Lee Blackett a season and a bit ago has had a real bearing on the balance. And it feels like Johan van Graan's South African driving obsession doesn't have anyone to say, hey, Johan, we've got to stop this.

22:21Finn Russell is a genius. He's a hugely gifted player, but he was like an attendant and has been when he's played this season. He throws the odd pass, but he's peripheral. And I'm getting the feeling that maybe he's now just getting a little bit bored with what Bartha not doing.

22:42Alfie: Yeah, the Blackett absence, I think, has definitely been keenly felt, hasn't it? And the thing I do quite like about this is just almost for Gloucester fans' point of view, that they can actually be excited. Because how many seasons have we had? We only had four games in the Prem, but already by that point, Gloucester would probably be thinking, well, this isn't going to be our year, isn't it? We're not going to do anything in Europe. We're not going to do much in the Prem. Whereas now you feel that there is a real sense of positivity and excitement for that fan base. And those two signings of Daryl Lake and Jack Morgan are really smart pieces of business because Gloucester have been developing something.

23:18They haven't had success and they haven't challenged enough. But, for example, in the Charlie Atkinson, Seb Atkinson, so Max Llewellyn trio, that was looking really promising last season. And I think Charlie Atkinson, who hadn't quite found his place in the Prem, has really taken charge of that Glosser team and on form would be in this England set-up now. If George Ford didn't have a million pounds of credit in the bank with the coaches, Charlie Atkinson would be in that squad, I'm sure. I think they also deserve credit for cool-headed approach to coaching realignment. They haven't just fired and hired someone new.

24:03They've backed coaches. They've brought in what they needed, some grit. I think I'm going to see Joel Tompkins this week. It's clearly been an effective recruitment. Brett Deacon as well. They haven't just booted people out. They've recognised that guys they have there have ability, but I think they've added to it to create a real good chemistry. The only way you get a performance like they delivered is if you've created the right environment. Chris Boyd obviously overseeing it all.

24:36Elgan: It'll be interesting to see how they can build on that grit throughout the season because we've seen very impressive mauling. We've seen a backs-to-the-wall result against Bath now. I was at the Leicester game on the Friday night, which is the one game they've lost, only narrowly. But it felt like out wide on that occasion, they did struggle to cut Leicester open once the maul and the tight aspect had hindered them slightly. Then again, they were still very close to beating Leicester at Welford Road. So it'll be interesting to see. They played so well against Bordeaux. Absolutely. So interesting to see.

25:05Elgan: I think that's the one thing. They've got that foundation there now, and now they can build on that throughout the season.

25:10Alfie: Well, exciting for Gloucester, maybe. Exciting for Newcastle as well, if we can rattle through some of the other games for different reasons. but a victory for them over Sale. We've been saying, haven't we, over the last few weeks on the pod that it will become an increasingly more difficult place for teams to go. They've got their first win. I know Will, not here this week, will want credit for saying on the extra pod we did from Leicester Tigers last week that Newcastle were going to beat Sale. From a Sale perspective, though, is the concern here for Sale that we know that most teams in the Prem, if they're missing players, if they're not at full strength, can drop games and lose to other teams that you don't expect them to beat?

25:45Alfie: But the team for sale at the weekend was Nicky Smith, Luke Cowan Dickey, Thomas Francis, Ernst Van Rijn, Ben Bamber, Christians, Tom Curry, Ben Curry. That's your pack. Hansen. OK, so not your necessarily starting or usual starting nine. But George Ford, Riketti, Marcy White, Joe Marchant, Tommy Flaherty, Tom Roback, Tom Robuck, Joe Carpenter. That's a strong sale team. And they really don't look like the force that we probably expected them to or the team that we're really going to improve on last season at this point in the campaign. No, they don't. And they are performing, they're a team performing way below the sum of their parts.

26:20And I guess we do say on this part, I remember last year looking at the team, somebody who you think should be better than they are ends up being eighth, ninth or tenth. And Sale right now are heading in that direction. The recruitments they made were smart. They hadn't recruited very well the year before, but Courtney and Joe Marchant, Nicky Smith, these are seasoned, experienced international players. The team you've read out there is, what, 75 % test players, plus a couple who have that potential. Ben Bamba, for example, has definitely got that potential that keeps developing. So what is it?

27:03Like, it's not just, you know, it's the opposite of a Gloucester thing. You know, there's a team there that should be competing for the top four. And right now, they go to Newcastle and, well, they score three points. Yeah. I mean, that's, yeah, there should be an attacking force. That back row, they should be bossing the game. Newcastle will grow and are growing. And you're right, they will become harder to beat. But this almost felt like the story was sale rather than Newcastle. I know it was a significant day for Newcastle. But, you know, if you're covering that game, It was like, great for Newcastle, but my goodness, where are Sale?

27:45Where's their identity? Why are they not firing?

27:49Alfie: I mean, it's so strange, isn't it? I mean, we all like Alex Anderson, isn't it? But definitely, I think the pressure's ramping up on him, isn't it, to get more of a tune out of this squad that he's been given. They were poor last year. The start to this season has been poor once again. And perhaps if I can bring it on to Exeter, because I think there's a point here. I mean, Sale have won more games than Exeter, So the point I'm about to make doesn't totally go with them. But if you look at Exeter and firstly, actually, the game at Ashton Gate, which I went to, was a matter of who played the conditions.

28:21Alfie: It was such awful conditions. It was just going to be about who plays them the best. And I think Bristol just about did that, although there was a point in that second half where it looked like Exeter would be the team that would go on and win. But I was looking back in a 10 team prem, which we've only had three seasons of. The team that finishes fourth. Last season, it was Leicester. They lost six games. The season before Bristol, they lost eight. The season before that, it was Sarri's and they lost seven. Exeter, finalists last year, are already on three defeats. So with 14 games to go, it sounds like a lot.

28:51Alfie: That actually doesn't leave them with that much wiggle room, does it? If they are to get back in the top four. And Sale, as I say, aren't in the Exeter bracket entirely because they have a slightly better record. But because their performances haven't been that convincing, you're looking at them and thinking, you don't have much time to turn this around. And if you continue performing like this, you have less and less room to drop the odd game. What we know in coaches, coaches will say it's fine margins. Like, Exeter have lost Le Niquetau from that team and suddenly they don't look the same, don't have the same chemistry.

29:24And Henry Slade isn't influencing the game at 13 as he did last season. And you just take out one or two ingredients And, you know, I would have thought in conditions like you sat through at Ashton Gate, that that would play into Exeter's hands as a team who like having a big pack. I mean, it gets the same with Sale and Newcastle. There I wonder about the pitch being, the Astro pitch being sort of slight leveler in bad conditions. But you would think that Exeter would relish those conditions at Ashton Gate, particularly against a Bristol side who would much prefer a bright sunny day and a hard pitch it's just those small ingredients I know like Christians has left obviously as well but it just feels like losing their Nikitao at 12 has just upset the the balance because even at the start of last season they were struggling a little bit and he before he got in the team and then he then he arrived from Australia got in the team Slade just starts playing like a dream Harvey Skinner comes of age finally after a couple of seasons where he didn't look like he was really prem ready.

30:33Is that all it takes to just upset the chemistry? Because it looks like it with Exeter at the moment.

30:40Alfie: Yeah, it's bizarre. I'm really conscious of time, which is so often the case. I think I probably say that every single week, but just to be able to rattle through and get onto other stuff. Shall we finish off on events at the Stoop where you were on Sunday? Alex, two questions I've got for you here, really. We'll get onto the one for Quinns in just a moment. But from a Sarri's point of view, they're a similar boat to maybe a sail or one of those teams I think we're all struggling to place and working out who are you. Are you as good as we feel you probably should be with the squad you can put together?

31:11Alfie: Do you think Sarri's rotation policy at the start of this season has backfired on them? I don't think it's helping them. So yes, I suppose so. So, I mean, even in the minutiae on Sunday, Fergus Burke goes off for an HIA, fails it, and Owen Farrell is on the touchline as a water boy, and Max Malins had to move to 10. He can play 10, but he wasn't having a great day at 15, and he didn't have any better day at 10, because Farrell had been rotated out this week. When Saracens were dominating Europe and the Prem, They operated a similar rotation policy. They had a much deeper squad, of course, to be able to do it.

31:53And their idea then was that everyone gets a shot and then they have selection games. So Europe, for example, would be a selection game or maybe the London Derby they'd choose as a selection game. I think they've got a bit too deep into their own heads about this sort of wine tasting. We won't judge anyone by their label, by their age, their salary, their international status. Everyone's going to get a seat at our table and you'll earn the right. Now, it is early in the season and they're 2-2, I think, in the Prem. But they look like a team that's disjointed. And Saracen's had no cohesion. And you can only put that down to the fact that they're changing their team every week.

32:27And it's all part of a bigger strategy that by the end of the season, they'll have their starting 15. And then if one drops, they'll be able to bring someone up who's been ingrained in what they're trying to do. And this is all part of their process. But it did not help them on Sunday one bit up against a Quinns team who were outgunned in terms of internationals and experience, but they had their heads in the right place and they played some really effective rugby, up the guts. And some of their young guys, Seb Driscoll, for example, Lucas Schmidt, number eight, really driving this team forward.

33:02And Finn Bax coming back, playing 40 minutes. What a 40 minutes he had. That set the platform for them to be able to play. And Marcus Smith just had the run of the place.

33:11Alfie: On his 200th appearance for Quinns. Scoring tries, creating tries, saving tries. A horrible moment for Max Malins, who was just sauntering over. And it just encapsulated a kind of a hunger and desire and urgency that Quinns brought to the London derby. Saracens just lacked. And it's like they couldn't get up for this game more than another game because it's all part of a wider rotation policy. So it does feel like it's backfiring on them, yeah. Yeah. Feel free to come back in on this in a second, Alex, because as you were at the game, but Barnsley, I wanted to ask you that the easy thing that we point to with a match like this, and Saracen's even tweeted at the start of the week, it's their cup final, it's Harlequins' cup final, it's a game that means more to Quinns than it does Sarri's.

33:57Alfie: Do you think Quinns are starting to figure out who they are? And this wasn't just a team that always get up for playing Sarri's at the stoop? I'll tell you what I think it was. I think it was one of the most mindless press releases you'll get. Marcus Smith, when he got the post-match, man of the match interview, said, we're always up for Saracens. It's our cup final with the broadest smile. If you could have done one thing to infuriate Harlequins, to get the crowd going, to get the team riled up, it was say it's their cup final. if the Pollock incident at half-time was stupid and wound up Leicester this was on another level and it got Harlequins going and I was thinking before we're in danger here we're only four games in and we're talking about you know this team's playing well this team's playing badly it is four games you know Harlequins were three for three defeats and they've had one big game and we're saying how positive things are You know, apart from Gloucester, there's not been one team that has really dominated.

35:05But there's no doubt at all. Harlequins played with excellent shape, pattern. But most of all, they had fire in their bellies. And credit to Saracens, they lit the flames. I think the thing about Quinns, Barnsley, is that they were starting. I mean, they were predicted by a lot of people at our place, never mind around the game, as the likely bottom team in the Prem. So they're starting from pretty low base. I thought Sale, we know aren't great. And Quinn's a pretty regretful of the moment that Ford's hip drop tackle on Chandler Cunningham South, put Cunningham South out of the game. Had it happened two weeks later, it would have been a penalty to Quinn's to end up leading to a try for Sale, Cunningham South out for two months now.

35:51He needed ankle surgery. But they showed something in that game against, admittedly, a SAIL team who aren't any great shakes right now. But they did show something. And then they beat Van in the Challenge Cup. I think Van were much changed. But it just feels like, from a low base, they're just starting to make some progress in who they are. And there's just a glimmer of positivity there, which wasn't there at all last year. And it just feels like maybe it's coming through now.

36:24Alfie: Yeah, it feels like that's the thing that there might be a little bit of positivity for them to hold on to. And a couple of weeks ago, you were trying to work out where that was going to come from, I suppose. As always, a really interesting, entertaining round of the Prem. Loads for us to try and get through. We'll have a quick break, but up next, we'll chat about Steve Borthwick's England training squad and another defeat for the Red Roses.

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37:20Elgan: At PwC, we optimize the systems that put your data to work, so you can scale your AI from proof of concept to competitive edge, and accelerate your tech evolution so you can redefine what's possible. From blueprint to breakthrough, we take you further with tech, so you can outthink, outpace, and outperform. PwC, so you can. PwC refers to the PwC network and or one or more of its member firms, each of which is a separate legal entity.

37:50Alfie: This episode is sponsored by ZocDoc. Have you been putting off a doctor's appointment or need a dentist and you don't know where to start? We've definitely been there and that's why we use ZocDoc. Actually, over the holidays, Michael had a dental emergency and seemingly every office was closed. but we hopped onto ZocDoc, found an in-network dentist, had great reviews, saw real-time appointments available, which was key. It was on New Year's Day and booked an appointment in just minutes. It took so much of the stress out of the already stressful situation. ZocDoc makes it easy to search and compare over 250 ,000 local in-network providers across more than 200 specialties.

38:33Alfie: So you can find the right doctor or dentist and book instantly. Taking care of your health just got easier. Download the ZocDoc app today and book that appointment on your to-do list. That's Z-O-C-D-O-C, ZocDoc. So to finish off, starting off with Steve Borthwick's training squads. This is a couple of days training camp ahead of November, but it gives us a pretty good idea of where the England head coach's mind is ahead of those matches coming up. And, well, a bit of breaking news as we're recording this morning, Alex. You said Charlie Atkinson on another day would have been involved. Well, he is now involved.

39:10He is, yeah. Finn Smith took a bang to the calf over the weekend against Leicester. So Charlie Atkinson has been drafted into the England training camp for the next couple of days. He is obviously the next in line outside those three. So I don't think at the moment there's anything to worry about about Finn Smith. Steve Borthwick will give us an update on Tuesday about his status. But Charlie Atkinson, who we said 15 minutes ago, was maybe harshly excluded, is now back in the England set-up.

39:38Alfie: OK, good. The other kind of headlines, I suppose, if I round them up, is the uncapped duo of McParland and Tuopilotu returns for Ben Curry and Tom Pearson, and then added just to the injury list, Charnel Cunningham South, Ben-Heidiansy van Rensburg. And as we reported over the weekend, Joe Marchand and Will Joseph are both included. Barnsley, what stands out to you? The centres, Will Joseph's inclusion is quite interesting, but what stands out to you? It's interesting, but it's a big squad and I don't think he's going to be involved in the Australia game. What stands out for me, I think, in some ways, are a couple of Bristol exclusions and people won't be expecting to see them.

40:23But I think in the last few weeks, you've seen Harry Randall playing a very different sort of game. He's quick and everyone says he's just 100 miles an hour, but he's developed a really good kicking game. And I think he's a little bit unfortunate not to be in the squad. And I also think the same for Fitz Harding. I know that England have a million back row forwards, but Harding is the turnover king. He's outstanding for Briscoe, but he's got a reputation now as one of these blokes who can do it at club level, but not international. And we don't know. and I watch Saracens and I watch yet again Ben Earl, who I'm a great fan of Ben Earl's ability, but blimey, I can remember a year or so ago having a chat with Peter Winterbottom who wasn't so certain because he was concerned about the amount of stupid penalties he gives away and we saw it again at Harlequins and I just thought those Bristol players are a little bit unfortunate not to be in the squad.

41:28And I think maybe at his age and the way things are going, I think perhaps Luke Cowan-Dickey is a little bit lucky to be in the squad.

41:36Alfie: It's always interesting, isn't it, with the players that aren't there. George Hendy is another one that I know a lot of fans point to. Is he going to get his opportunity? In terms of some of those younger players, Elgin, that are there, Kepu Tuopalotu, Will Joseph, I mentioned, Noah Kalori, Archie McParlane, as Barnsley suggests, often we see with this squad, Young players come in, but we never really see them when it comes to an England squad. If we look with a World Cup in a year's time, any of the youngsters in that England training squad you think could really break through into the team that we see properly play a role at the World Cup?

42:07Elgan: I think Capitura Pilotto is perhaps the one that jumps out to me. Barnsley's mentioned there, Luke Cowan and Dickey. It feels like for a long time now, England have struggled for who that third hooker could be that could then challenge Jamie George and Luke Cowan and Dickey for the top two spots. We've seen Theo Dan is sort of the perennial come-and-go third-choice man. Now Kepi Tupolotu, who we know how dynamic he is around the field, a rambunctious ball carrier and able to win turnovers over the ball, perhaps question marks over the line-out, as there often are with these ball-carrying number twos whose strengths maybe lie elsewhere.

42:39Elgan: But it feels like he's someone that over the next year could really force his way in if he gets the opportunity. The line-out throwing is fascinating because Jamie George is a world-class line-out thrower. But behind him, I don't think if the game is on the line, England would want Jamie George on the field to hit his man because Luke Hound-Dickey is not as good as Jamie George. And behind Luke, you've got Theo Dan, who's now dropped out of the squad, whose throwing was wayward on Sunday, and Kepu, whose throwing was wayward on Friday. Both Kepu and Theodad are magnificent around the field. But Jamie George is a class above everybody else when it comes to hitting the man in the line-out.

43:23And now everyone is... I think defences are challenging in the air a lot more because it forces you to throw it straight. Therefore, there's more pressure on the accuracy. And we've seen Kevin Dickey's accuracy fail him and England at key times. And England can't find that third guy. to put the pressure on from behind because their accuracy is questionable as well. It's a real area of concern. And I find it bizarre because it's a closed skill in a way. I know there's a moving dynamic in the line-out, but goal kickers, especially goal-kicking coaches, but there aren't enough specialist line-out throwing coaches, I don't think.

44:02I think if I could pick up on some of the youngsters. Yeah, go for it. I'm really interested in the Will Joseph and Joe Marchant selections. I said on the pod from ages back, I thought Marchant would come straight back in. And he has. Will Joseph has earned his recall. It was a long time ago, 2022, where he made his England debut, got two minutes off the bench, caught flat and did a tackle, got up, made a tackle, and Eddie Jones said he was the player of the tour, which is classic Eddie. I forgot about that. But if you look at, from a World Cup perspective, I think this signals that the Tommy Freeman experiment of playing him at 13 can be over.

44:43I think Tommy Freeman, particularly in attack, Tommy actually likes defending at 13 more than he likes defending on the wing. But he's at his best playing as a wing and effecting the game from there.

44:55Alfie: Is it also partly sorry to jump in because England aren't picking from a position of strength anymore? And when they first started trying, that was when they're on this unbeaten run and you can try things and build up to the World Cup. Whereas now it feels like it's harder for Borthwick to do that because they're also under pressure to get results. Yes, but I also think he's worked through a load of other wings and has decided they're not good enough. You know, Henry Arundel, Tom Robuck's not involved now. Kalori is involved, but that's a pick for the future. I think he's got a long way to go before he gets in an England team for a frontline test match.

45:27Whereas with Joe Marchant, you have a 13 who can play wing. With Will Joseph, you have exactly the same skill set, if you like. He can play 13, he can play wing. I think Marchant's defensive qualities are so highly regarded by Borthwick and the England set-up. His footwork that makes him a threat and attack also makes him a really effective defender at 13. And I think with some of the injuries that England have, so Van Rensburg not being there, Mark Atkinson, Seb Atkinson, Mark Atkinson, former England centre. So, Zerbackinson, we think his knees are going to be okay. But Fraser Dingwall's back in as a 12 option.

46:11Jomo's back in as a 12 option. You've got Slade in there as a 13 option. I think Marchant and Joseph, I don't think Joseph will play against Australia. I think Marchant could easily be involved against Australia. I don't think he's necessarily earned his place through what he's done with Sale so far. But that balance that he gives them, brilliant in the air, defensively sound, versatile, played two positions. I could see him being involved in a front line 23 very quickly, if not immediately.

46:42Alfie: I do find it quite interesting though that firstly to go back to the hooker discussion, it feels to me that that is the most important position that England need to develop or at least grow some depth at in the build-up to the next World Cup. And then centres is funny because so long under Steve Borthwick, it was Slade, it was Lawrence, it was a centre partnership that have played together more than, was it anyone ever? or is it certainly the most in a long, long time, more than anyone ever? But now, actually, we're in a position where you're thinking, who are the centres? What's the combination going to be?

47:10Alfie: And that's a big question in the build-up to the world. I think if they're all fit, he'll start with Atkinson and Slade as he played in the summer. Van Rensburg's had two horrible knockouts in his last two games, one for England, one for Bristol. So he's not involved at all. But he will be involved. I think England like the ballast that he would bring and that punch that he can bring into the midfield. he could end up being the starting 12. But yeah, like who's the 30? Ollie Lawrence seems to be gone now, discarded completely. So we are back into a bit of uncertainty about what the balance will look like.

47:43But I just feel that Marchant and Will Joseph can bring England some of the balance that they want in terms of defensively, some sharpness in attacks and pace and some expertise under the high ball and allow Tommy Freeman to play on the wing where he's most affected.

48:03Alfie: Which is his best position. Barnsley just finishes off on the England squad. No Courtney Laws. Do we read anything into that? What do you make of it? I read into it that we in the media were bigging up Courtney Laws and it never crossed my mind he would be in the squad. He's a very good player, but he's been playing second-tier rugby in France. He's just back in the Prem now. Well, Steve Borthwick doesn't regard Prem performances necessarily as any indication of what happens for England. It's no surprise. I think the other thing with Courtney is Steve doesn't need to take up a space in his 36-man squad for Courtney.

48:41There's absolutely nothing he'll learn about Courtney in camp this week if he doesn't already know and that we don't already know and he just wants to watch Courtney play. I had always felt that Margin might come back in straight away, that Courtney would be more likely to be involved Six Nations time or maybe even in the summer. I think the selection of Tom Pearson, I think Courtney not being there, let's say he's in Borthwick's World Cup thinking. Courtney not being there this time allows Borthwick to pick Pearson, who does deserve a shot and is that kind of powerful back rower that can help bring some balance.

49:18Ben Curry's back in. I think one of the things that's frustrated of the England coaches about the Prem has been the lack of competition at the breakdown. Therefore, there hasn't been as much focus on the jackal. But there was more of that in Europe and there'll be more competition on the floor in the November test. So someone like Ben Curry coming back in does allow England to have that sort of jackal threat option. And he doesn't need Courtney to be there. If he is in the World Cup thinking, which I believe he is, the balance that Borthwick can work with this week ahead of Test Week is probably more beneficial in the immediate term for someone like Tom Pearson.

49:58Alfie: Interesting. We'll see what the England squad looks like when they actually get to those matches in November. You're going to be going up chatting to Steve Borthwick this week, Alex. Anything else that's come in people's way? I'm looking forward to seeing Joel Tompkins, actually. Oh, yeah? It was 2013. He made his three England appearances in Stuart Lancaster's midfield during his short spell playing rugby union. He's a rugby league at heart. Come back across from league to be a defence coach at a time where rugby union is about to introduce the hip drop tackle law, which rugby league has had for so long.

50:33So I'm looking forward to seeing him. And then November, France, South Africa is the game that stands out. Yeah, I think we're both starting to go, Elgin and I. Yeah, that's the game that stands out. because for all summer we talked about who can challenge the box. I'm like, well, France, they have the equipment to do it and they've got injuries, which is a problem. But that Friday night in Paris will be pretty cool.

50:57Alfie: That's going to be good. Let's finish off the pod. Elgin, Canada 31, England 22. Consecutive defeats for the Red Roses for the first time since 2016. Perspective, I suppose, is somewhat important here. It's only three defeats in 74 matches, which we should probably point out. but I think you mentioned this in your match report. More than anything, has this WXV Global Series shattered the sense of invincibility that the Red Roses previously had? Fire John Mitchell. Two defeats against part-timers. What are we doing?

51:26Elgan: I don't mean that. It certainly eroded... That's what he's from the Red Roses coming their way. Mr. Lowe again. Always Mr. Lowe. It certainly eroded that sense of inevitability and invincibility around them because with the organisation of these four fixtures, three against Canada and one against New Zealand, there was always a sense that they could slip up once, but they've lost the series 2-0 to Canada. They haven't beaten them at all. So it does feel like maybe a shift in the axis of the women's game is a bit too strong. But for the first time in at least seven years and possibly ten, it feels like England cannot categorically say they are the best team in the world right now because we know Canada have had the talent for a long time.

52:10Elgan: Sophie Degudi, best player in the world, goal-kicking lock. They've got some absolutely brilliant forwards like Delica Menin and Julian McQuale, who were both huge in both of the last two games. But then they've also got these very exciting backs with sevens backgrounds as well. So it was this combination of pick-and-goes at the middle, but also just shipping it wide so much. So it was a real all-court performance by Canada. And in the women's game for a long time, talent goes a long way. Because it's been a long amateur and semi-professional phase, talent could do what investment and support a little bit couldn't do.

52:46Elgan: England stole a huge march on that by going fully professional seven years ago. Canada had been a few years behind. You sort of alluded to there, Alex, the crowdfunding that they used to help them at the World Cup. During that game, Rugby Canada made an announcement, a huge amount of extra government funding towards the Rugby Canada programme. So they've got a bit more support and infrastructure around themselves now, which has plugged that gap a bit. And I think that's why we've seen Canada able to match England in basically every facet other than the scrum. They were the equal or better of England in the last four nights.

53:22Elgin, behind you on the wall of our studio is Mark Aspen's picture of Ellie Kildun biting her gold medal with the red rose on her tooth. What's happened to Ellie Kildun? I mean, best player in the world, arguably. I know she didn't win Player of the Tournament, Player of the Year at the World Cup, but certainly the most famous, I'd say, player in the world in rugby circles, dropped to the bench because of form. Has it just all become a bit much? What's happening?

53:50Elgan: I think in terms of just the last two weeks, it was a result of a poor performance in that Toronto game. The back three in particular has been a bit of an area of struggle ever since Abbey Dow retired after the World Cup. She was just such a solid option out wide. She hardly ever did anything wrong. So she retired having won the World Cup. She took the perspective just, well, I've sort of achieved what I want to rugby now. I've got massive hinterland. I'm going to go and be an engineer, basically, and do my crochet as well that she loves doing. So that's left a bit of a gap on the wing that has felt a bit, you know, for all England, the fact that they were unbeaten for 41 games in a row, it did feel like they haven't quite replaced that fully.

54:31Elgan: And Claudia Maloney-McDonald, who has come in for Abidou, and Ellie Kildun both struggled a lot in that Toronto game. So it was a direct result of that performance. In terms of over the past year entirely, I mean, Ellie Kildun is such a mercurial rugby player. She can be not involved in the game at all, as we saw, you know, like against France in the World Cup semifinal, where she's got two brilliant tries, or the way she settled the nerves against Canada in the final. She could just conjure something out of thin air. So if she plays a game where that doesn't happen, you just have a collection of things that aren't quite good.

55:04Elgan: And there's been a bit more of that in recent matches. And I think what we can perhaps extrapolate from that is it would be completely understandable for the Red Roses if they had a wobble after winning a World Cup and going unbeaten for so long, because eventually things might get a little bit stale. You might be able to push yourself with internal standards for so long, but you need something from outside to be a cup of cold water in the face. And John Mitchell has said, when we come back, they've got a long gap now. The Women's Six Nations isn't until April. First, they've got a game against USA next weekend, but everyone's expecting that to be fairly convincing.

55:41Elgan: They've got a bit of time now. And he said, I've got to find with the girls a new stimulus now because maybe we have become a bit predictable and complacent. And Canada have shown that we need to do something a bit different now.

55:52Alfie: And it's quite fascinating, isn't it? How they navigate that. There are players in this squad who have never been anywhere near it, let alone winning one game. They've never lost back-to-back games. So how they deal with that is, as you say, when we get to Six Nations and obviously they've got the game this weekend, is something to keep an eye on. A big talking point, though, off the back of the game was John Mitchell's comments about the PWR, where he said that young English players need to be given PWR minutes. What is it at the moment? Is it 13 English-based players in every PWR match squad?

56:18Elgan: An average per match day over the season of 13 England qualified players. and then I think it's in knockout games, it has to be 13 in all of them. So an average of 13 during the regular season and then at least 13.

56:30Alfie: OK, and so he's pointed towards that there needs to be opportunities for young English players coming through. For example, 25 of the Canadian squad, the players are contracted for this coming season in the PWR. It's the best league in the world, but that means you get a lot of overseas playing as well and overseas players playing as well. And John emailed us, theruckatthetimes.co.uk, and he asked this question. He said after two losses, are England really going to pull up the ladder in the PWR? Could a combination of protectionism and professionalism end up killing off the women's game before it really begins?

57:02Alfie: And that was not John Mitchell. That was a different John that emailed.

57:06Elgan: Not John Mitchell emailed. So I'll pick up on the point Alex made about the crowdfunding and the plucky underdogs. John Mitchell has absolutely no truck with that characterisation because he says those Canadian players are professional and it's because of us. It's because they play in Premiership Women's Rugby. A team like Saracens, for example, has a little Canadian enclave there. They've got De Goody, they've got quite a few of the top players. Kevin Rue, the Canada head coach, has even coached there at Saracens. So you can see why from a purely performance perspective, John Mitchell looks at that and thinks, why are we helping the other teams in the world when we've established this infrastructure and now we're dragging the rest of the world with us?

57:45Elgan: I think it would be a real shame if that protectionism came in because I think there is something more at play here. I think the women's game would suffer if the rest of the world suffered and the Red Roses took on. I fully understand why someone who's fully involved in that high performance would think that. I think that there are some areas where it could improve, but there could be a slight increase in that number. Even if it were 14 or 15 as an average, it would be below the GIF rules in France, for example, where it has to be an average of 16 in a match day. The other way I look at it is Alex was reporting on London Irish last week.

58:22Elgan: They're an example of a team that would perhaps like to establish a women's team. Someone like Bath doesn't yet have a women's team. PWR is looking to expand. So there could be some more teams in future in which there'll be more match days available. The other aspect of it is part of that expansion is possibly Wales, Scotland and Ireland getting teams in PWR, which I think would be really exciting. There'll be a lot of financial and commercial considerations. But as an idea, I think that's really exciting to have a British and Irish league in women's rugby that somehow the men's game over 30 years has never managed to create, even though I think it should have.

58:54Elgan: That would free up spots on English teams as well, because there are lots of Wales, Scotland and Ireland players playing at these clubs as well. So I think there are other ways to go about it. I fully understand John Mitchell's point of view. But looking at it from the global perspective, I hope they don't pull up the ladder.

59:10Alfie: I think it's, as you say, clearly the best thing for the women's game, as exhibited by what we've seen this summer, is for the PWR to help, in some way, help other teams grow. And we're seeing that with Canada. But it's an interesting question. We'll see what happens. Lads, we've run out of time. Alex, you're off to England training base this week. You're going to be chatting to them? Yeah, I'm going to be off to see Joe Marchant this afternoon. I think Steve Borthwick tomorrow. Nice.

59:34Elgan: Yeah. Elgin, do you know where your week takes you? I've got some trips up towards Huddersfield for an interview tomorrow. I'm not going to say why. And then Wednesday down to Bristol as well for a few things. And then Friday, there's a bit of an England cross-code double. We've got the Red Roses game at the more sociable hour of 9.15pm against USA. In the morning as well, there'll be the Rugby League. It's England against Papua New Guinea in the Rugby League World Cup. And then Saturday, I believe I'll be going to Saracens against Newcastle, which, well, we'll see if Newcastle can do something else or if Saracens can get their act together after last weekend.

1:00:05Alfie: Busy week. Yourself, Barnsley, do you know where you're heading yet? I do, yeah, and it's going to be interesting. I'm going down to Exeter and they are playing Harlequins. So the Harlequins recovery, let's see where it goes. And it's a big game because in terms of the biggest sort of tactical picture, I think it's going to be fascinating at Exeter. And the Harlequins, big game. Big game. Yeah, massive. Well, look forward to the match report on that. Thank you to everyone that has watched the episode on Timesport on YouTube and been listening as well. This has been The Ruck, the rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times.

1:00:45People are disappearing again, just like before. Nocturne. Streaming on Apple TV on the 30th of October. Liev Schreiber.

1:00:57Elgan: Walter has a way of getting to people. When he does, they don't come back. Stephen Graham. The world is full of dark places. Zassi Beetz. How's he getting messages out? He's locked under six feet of concrete. She's still alive. I'm a fighter. Nocturne, streaming on Apple TV on the 30th of October. Subscription required. At PwC, we optimize the systems that put your data to work so you can scale your AI from proof of concept to competitive edge and accelerate your tech evolution so you can redefine what's possible. From blueprint to breakthrough, we take you further with tech so you can outthink outpace and outperform pwc so you can pwc refers to the pwc network and or one or more of its member firms each of which is a separate legal entity