An All Blacks win for the ages: Is Pollard South Africa's answer?

0:14Alfie: Hello, this is The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times, back with you on a Monday after the opening test between the Springboks and the All Blacks. And what a test match it was. What a test series we have set up. Lots to get into. Lots to review, lots to look ahead to. I'm Alfie Reynolds. Great to have your company once again. Now in studio with me on this Monday morning is Charlie Morgan. Morning, Charlie. Hi, pal. Great to be back. Good to have you back with us. Good summer so far. A little bit of time off.

0:41Charlie: Yeah, a little bit of time off, but that whet the appetite for the series to come and the season to come. It was a fantastic test match with absolutely everything.

0:49Alfie: And you've been hard at work already as well, up to Newcastle fairly recently. Big piece up there with the Red Bulls.

0:54Charlie: Yes, just to check in with them, are checking with what is probably the most exciting project in the sport at the minute and lots of anticipation there 26 new players they're tempering expectations slightly and i think it is potentially going to be a steady start but they want to be challenging for titles eventually and yeah it's just great to have that feel-good story in the sport yeah exciting times up in the northeast

1:15Alfie: probably for the first time in a long long time in terms of the pod today we're going to be chatting to alex lowe who's out in south africa shortly he's going to be joining us to react to the Springbok team for the second test. Razzy Rasmus is going early. He's naming the team. So we're going to be hearing from Alex fairly shortly. Charlie and I are going to review the first test between the All Blacks and the Springboks. South Africa 16, New Zealand 33, Charlie. I mean, this has just set up the series brilliantly, hasn't it? Like we were excited about the series anyway, but New Zealand were the underdogs.

1:47Alfie: Everyone probably expected the Springboks to win it. The fact that the All Blacks have taken the first test makes this such an intriguing, even more intriguing series than it already was.

1:56Charlie: Absolutely. And I think just to throw it sort of from a wider perspective and point of view, and I think we maybe have that advantage more as kind of neutral guys watching it from afar. I think this whole World Cup cycle was going to be about who can stop South Africa going three from three and how, and maybe more crucially, how do you stop South Africa going three from three? And I think that test match, albeit it could have at 55 minutes, it absolutely looked like it was going the other way. It looked like South Africa's scummaging power was just going to leave New Zealand with no foundation in the game whatsoever.

2:31Charlie: And I think there are a few, if you take Malcolm Mark spilling from the driving wall before halftime as well, bar those couple of moments, it could have very easily gone a different way. But for New Zealand to pull through that, to find a way to have an attack so sophisticated that they can score five tries off 56 rugs, which we can get into a little bit in a little bit more detail later. I think that sets up this series. It sets up the next 18 months just in a fascinating way.

3:00Alfie: I know the Springboks were nowhere near their best, but I agree. One of those things watching that game, I think it was about 46 minutes, start of the second half. South Africa kicked the penalty to go 16-13 up, I think it was at that point. Their scrum was on top. And I was thinking, we have seen this so many times before from the Springboks. They are going to squeeze the All Blacks and they will end up winning this game. Like a huge amount of credit to the All Blacks, really. And we'll get into the details of the game and how they were able to hold on and turn the tide. But you felt like you'd seen that game so many times before where the Springboks win it.

3:29Alfie: But on this occasion, they didn't.

3:31Charlie: Usually, yeah. Yeah. And I think that's a credit to the conviction that the All Blacks have under Dave Rennie, to the conviction they have in the game. they want to play and the fact that they think that that that is the solution to a side that can can really squeeze you i think yeah i think it's very important to acknowledge that south africa were below the best they were rusty their attack looked very kind of more confrontational but also super clunky and there was numerous the 23 turnovers is just going to cripple you in any game and it really hurt them and it really hurt them on saturday um they will get better but new Zealand also have areas that they will want to get better their scrum certainly their aerial stuff I think they're they'll want to hold the ball for longer than they did at the weekend and that just you know that just makes that just makes Saturday even more compelling I think.

4:22Alfie: You talk about the style and the All Blacks approach which was also a big talking point in the build-up to the first test last week between the two coaching groups and in their press conferences and using the media to to get kind of their messages across you've analysed it and people can can read that online Stuart Barnes has been writing about how the All Blacks approach the game and how you hurt this Springboks team. Is it further confirmation of the best way to get at the Springboks is to try and do what New Zealand did, try and do what Scotland did in the Nations Championship this summer? I know they didn't win that game, but to kind of back your attack, to try and move the ball when it is on to get it to space, that sort of thing?

5:00Charlie: I think this game probably reinforced that it's a real struggle to grind it out with a kind of set-piece, kick-heavy game. I think it's really important to say that the ability to move the ball through the hands and go to the edge, as we have come to expect from New Zealand throughout the years, that's what manipulates the space for you to kick into. So if you've then got those various options to use the boot, that's what makes you an all-round more effective attacking side. What was quite interesting about this game was to contrast it to the Nations Championship. The first three games under Rennie, New Zealand averaged 138 attacking rucks.

5:39Charlie: So that's a huge, huge number. And that meant that they kept possession for ages. They ground sides down. There was variation. They weren't flinging it wide to wide. They also went through the middle. In this game, they scored five tries from 56 attacking rucks. That's the level of efficiency you expect from a team like Bordeaux, who are excellent in transition situations. And we saw that through the counterattack with Jordan and McKenzie, which was a telling point just after that period that you're talking about there, which led to another try. There was a willingness and an accuracy to move the ball that South Africa didn't have.

6:18Charlie: So if you think even about the close range tries that New Zealand scored, they moved the ball to the edge with long passes from either Roygaard or Surveyor at one point. They were happy to move the ball and they were able to do it because of the accuracy of their handling. That's what South Africa really lacked. That cohesion, but also that accuracy. And the kind of big irony, one of the big ironies to come out of this game is that New Zealand have signed Tony Brown for after the next World Cup, which I guess is kind of a...

6:46Alfie: Who's currently a part of the Springbok.

6:47Charlie: Who's currently a South Africa side and has kind of implemented...

6:52Alfie: Is he in charge of attack? He's in charge of attack for the box.

6:54Charlie: And you would say that he has widened South Africa's horizons. But Saturday definitely wasn't an endorsement of the effect that he has had on South Africa. So that's an interesting subplot down the line for after this World Cup cycle. But wow, this win has set up the rest of this World Cup cycle in a fantastic way.

7:13Alfie: Yeah, I'm intrigued to chat to Alex about the reaction within South Africa. How big a blow do you think this is, Charlie, for the Springboks? I guess in the context of this series, but also in the context of they didn't play well. They had the scrum dominance we expect them to and they still didn't win the game. Almost for the confidence of this Springbok team. Good question.

7:34Charlie: I think they have. So Erasmus mentioned this afterwards that they've had setbacks within World Cup cycles before, whether that's losing group games, as they have done in both of their successful campaigns, whether it's losing getting absolutely pumped by Australia at Ellis Park they bounce back from that superbly well to to win I think 12 on the bounce before Saturday I think sometimes defeats like this can be can just give you a jolt we should stress that with even a modicum more handling accuracy with without a without another ridiculous try line save from Geordie Barrett But without a little bit of indiscipline at a five-meter scrum where they just stepped to the left or they're a judge to a step to the left before driving forward, you would think they would have gotten a pretty good situation to win that game.

8:23Charlie: They were also a little bit rusty. They've had a slightly more disjointed build-up with having to go to Argentina to play that one-off test and coming back and having that longer break since the Nations Championship. and meanwhile New Zealand have had this tour where they've been able to adjust gel combinations, look at ways they want to play. We'll kind of get into what Alex has gleaned from the press conference and whether there is any kind of change of tone. Razor Asmus looked very collected after the game, didn't he? But this team's got a few subplots in it.

8:59Alfie: Yeah, well, as I said, speak to Alex in a moment, but both the halfbacks have changed. So Cobus Reiner and Andre Pollard are at nine and ten. It's either going to be Sia Khaleesi or Paul de Villiers at six. But Sia Khaleesi slash Paul de Villiers, which is, I mean, I don't think we've ever seen that before, Charlie. So, yeah, kind of intriguing. Thomas de Toye on the bench. I don't think it's panic from South Africa, but I agree with you, actually, in that my reflections on this game, I think, from a Springbok point of view, would be the fact that they lost Ellis Park to Australia last year and still bounced back and had a great year and won the rugby championship.

9:35Alfie: They lost the first test against the Lions in 21 against New Zealand at the World Cup in 19. That's going a little bit back, but even so, it was still Erasmus in charge, still a chunk of the players that were involved in a lot of those experiences, plus the fact that there were uncharacteristic handling errors like their catch pass and simple basics were just not very good. They'll back themselves for that to be a lot slicker next week and the fact that, as we've said already, I think that is a test match so many times before that South Africa were in a position they wanted to be in and normally you would then see them pull away.

10:06Alfie: I think they would back themselves to be able to correct a lot of what went wrong, not to mention the disruption to the back line with players going off early through injuries and having to shift around and move there. I think they will back themselves to get better. I don't think it will be panic quite yet, but I just think it's brilliant for the series because all of a sudden the pressure is on them to turn this around. And you know, you know, of all the things that Erasmus and this group have checked off of winning the World Cup, backing up the World Cup, winning a Lions series, you know, all of that stuff.

10:35Alfie: They will not want to be a Springbok team that loses a Test series on home soil to New Zealand to the All Blacks.

10:40Charlie: No way. Given the hype that this series has had, it will be seriously painful for them to go 2-0 down. And I had, I know it's not a particularly good gauge, is it, the kind of replies you see flying around social media. But I saw people say, like, you know, does the Baltimore test even count, you know, if we're going to go there with one side already 2-1 up? And I answered at the time, well, good luck convincing the team that's behind that the Baltimore test doesn't count. But, yeah, nobody wants to go. It would just be brutal for South Africa to go 2-0 down. and this is a side that he wants to get a response out of.

11:21Charlie: The halfbacks thing is very interesting. We can get into that more with Alex Grant Williams. Not only was he charged down for the Fabian Holland try, he was certainly targeted on the short side. South Africa have for a long time stationed there, nine on the short side in defence. You'll remember Fafta Klerk doing an amazing job rushing up there. New Zealand looked, in the first half, they really went after Grant Williams. At half-time, he'd missed four tackles and made Ford more. So they really looked to find him. And I wonder whether he's paid the price for that as much as anything else. And then Sacha Feinberg and Gonzalo looked rusty, but I think you would have to say, you know, he's their answer for the World Cup, isn't he?

12:02Alfie: I'm surprised that they've changed the 10. I think long-term viewing, I would have thought that you would stick with him. He's come back from injury. There's a reason that he is rusty. Him and Grant Williams haven't really ever played together. So I thought there were reasons there. If we were to maybe flip it onto New Zealand and give them credit for what they did well. I thought there were kind of maybe three key moments throughout, or if I was to pick out three moments, which was the final 10 minutes of the first half, the fact they didn't concede, which involved that incredible Geordie Barrett intervention with Malcolm Marks meant he knocked it on over the line.

12:32Alfie: Then the Fabian Holland charge down, which came just after the Springboks had kicked that penalty I mentioned earlier at the start of the second half to score the try, go back in to the lead. And then the third one was that scrum penalty. We know test matches can be all about moments and key moments. And I think the key moments in this game went the All Blacks way, which is kind of credit to them.

12:53Charlie: Can I mention two more? There were loads and that's a testament to, I'll mention three more. And that is testament to how tough this New Zealand side are. Geordie Barrett stripping, that's part of the first one you mentioned, but Geordie Barrett stripping Jasper Vesa. and then in the second half we had a moment where Peter Steff de Toye gets absolutely buried by Safa Amua and George Bauer and then Luke Jacobson comes in and it's a bit messy. Luke Jacobson steams into the breakdown and he sort of cleans out Jasper Vieser along the way into Reineken. There's a turnover. Mike Adamson...

13:34Alfie: Yes, when the TMO came in on that, didn't he? and Matthew Carley, to be fair, was like, no.

13:38Charlie: Yeah, I feel a little bit for Mike Adamson here because it looked odd. Because I don't think Jasper Vese was part of the ruck, although he was quite close to it. And Jacobson was hunting the ball. And if you watch it, Peter Seftitoy reaches back really fast. So he almost sort of presents a new gate for Jacobson to go for. But it's a great, it's really opportunistic defence from Jacobson and really tough as well. and it's a 50-50 call. You know, you wouldn't be surprised if any sort of, it could have gone any which way, but Carly, you're right, sticks with his decision of just a knock-on. And then the last one, just to mention, is Will Jordan is not renowned for his defensive disruption at the breakdown.

14:22Charlie: He's a fantastic try scorer, a fantastic link man, and he sets up the Damian McKenzie break brilliantly, but he chases back a Grant Williams break. He's in over the ball, and Cobus Reinick just about escapes, moves away with the ball. Jordan is over Reinick again for a second time, twice in as many breakdowns he's challenging for the ball and the second one he wins a penalty. And that's summed up, that's also all hands on deck approach to defence that New Zealand have had to keep South Africa, to restrict South Africa to 16 points is a remarkable effort, given the attacking gains that South Africa have made under Tony Brown.

14:59Charlie: And yeah, that was as much as a five tries to one speaks to a fantastic attacking performance from the All Blacks. They were steely in their own way as well.

15:08Alfie: It's reminiscent a little bit of the Wallabies' victory last year. Very different games, but that was also a match where South Africa stopped scoring, basically. I think they stopped scoring even earlier, actually, against the Wallabies. Here is their last points around 46 minutes at the start of the second half. But that was a theme in both of them, which is probably quite alarming. How important do you think this is for Dave Rennie? and this New Zealand team, the start of this tenure, it's been really positive so far. This was the huge step up in challenge from what they had at home in the Nations Championship this summer.

15:40Alfie: But significant moment for kind of this group and where they're going and what he's trying to build.

15:45Charlie: You know, I honestly thought that winning one of the three tests in South Africa would have been a good effort whenever it came. And I think that would have given them, if they'd have won one in South Africa and then gone to Baltimore. I honestly thought, and I still think, that 2-2 in the Test Series is as much of a statement from the All Blacks as it is for the rest of the world to say this World Cup is going to be fantastic and the Springboks won't have it their own way, not least because these two might have to meet in the quarterfinal, which is another... That's not going to be an issue at all, is it, when we get to Australia?

16:25Charlie: No, it's just another mad thing that this draw has built up. So, you know, for them to have won the first one, for Dave Rennie to have improved his record against the Springboks to four out of five as a head coach, which is just superb given the era in which he's been coaching against them as an international head coach, it's great. gives them a footing to maybe releases a little bit of pressure, gives them sort of a grounding to go right. If they will really want to go after areas, as I said earlier, they will really want to go after areas and improve areas. And one of those areas is attack. And they'll probably work with a little bit more freedom now.

17:05Alfie: Final question, then we'll cross over to Alex in South Africa. It's just such a reminder of how quickly international rugby changes, isn't it? like it was less than a year ago that we were at Twickenham in England. We're having a famous win over the All Blacks. And you were kind of wondering where on earth New Zealand rugby was and where the All Blacks were going. And fast forward now, different coaching regime on a huge upwards trajectory. But it changes so quick at international rugby. We're often kind of prisoners of the moment or what happened before. I think we were chatting before we started recording and kind of England's Six Nations this year was quite a good example of that.

17:40Alfie: We were looking at England amazing end to last year. Had only lost one game all year and that was at the start of the campaign. You think that's going to continue and then you get the Six Nations that England had this year. And again, with this result, it can change so quickly. I think a lot of teams, probably England included, would take a lot of encouragement from that.

17:57Charlie: Well, England will take, not to make this about England at all, but England's scrumaging performance against South Africa, especially before George Martin went off, certainly looks good. How about those as two kind of snapshots, right? England go really hard at the high ball against South Africa. They're on top of the game, they're on top of the tactical trends for a split second. And it has felt like since then, the game has pivoted towards maybe favouring sides that are more willing to go through the phases a little bit more. And Saturday was a little bit different because Matt Carley really allowed the breakdown to breathe.

18:37Charlie: There was a contest there, but the whole Rennie era so far has been geared towards keeping the ball high tempo, having variety about both the way you move the ball through the hands and the way you kick. And yeah, Test Rugby, it does change. It can change over the course of this World Cup cycle. their teams can undulate um but also the other thing is that because there are relatively few games for any given test side in a in a year say say an average of say 14 um you do take a lot you make you draw a lot of conclusions from any given 80 minutes and i know that's a frustration for coaches because they can tell you that stuff's going on really well sort of behind the scenes And if it doesn't translate, they feel like they look silly and also don't feel like they're justified in what they're saying.

19:35Charlie: So, yeah, I guess one thing about it that it's good that these guys get to go at each other four weeks in a row is that we can draw some proper conclusions when we get to sort of mid-September, can't we?

19:47Alfie: Yeah, it makes it exciting. I'll tell you what, as we've said already, Razzy Rasmus has named his team for the second test. some really interesting selections to get into so we'll have a quick break here and the other side we'll be chatting to Alex in South Africa to react to that Springbok team news

20:05Alfie: okay so joining us from South Africa Alex Lowe back on the pod and fresh from a Razzi Erasmus team announcement press conference Alex and Charlie and I have teed this up already but a Pretty interesting team at that. Yeah, really interesting team. A lot of it was expected on Saturday night, talking to a lot of the South African journalists. They felt Andre Pollard would start at fly half. And Razzie confirmed that a lot of his selections were pre-planned. He did think he was going to be in a position of strength going to Cape Town. Obviously, he wanted to have won the game. A few of them are injury-related.

20:43Grant Williams has dropped out with an ankle injury, for example. Jesling Colby who came off at the end of Saturday night they said he had cramp now they're saying it's slightly more than cramp but haven't totally ruled out the possibility that he might come back in ahead of Ethan Hooker I would suggest that's unlikely because one of Razzi's kind of main mantras is that the team for Saturday has to train on Monday which is why he has bracketed Paul de Villiers with Sia Khaleesi if Sia Khaleesi comes through Monday's training session in full strength, then he will start and captain the team on Saturday.

21:22Razzi said he had a niggle on Sunday. So they've bracketed. Now you might say, I'll tell you whether you discussed it earlier, but if you don't know your team, why do you name the team?

21:31Alfie: That was literally about to be the question I was going to ask you. Why name it on a Monday if there are question marks over Khaleesi and Colby? Because it completely changes the conversation around South Africa about the team. because they've had 48 hours of self-flagellation after losing to the All Blacks at Ellis Park. The longer he waits to name the team for the next game, the longer that review goes on. I think he was very open post-match and again today, no finger pointing to anybody apart from themselves, only have themselves to blame, but it changes the narrative, doesn't it? You've now got a new team with a new 10 and a new nine um and pretty much a new bench going to a cape town hundred thousand in the rain he's just he's changed the conversation and that's what he's trying to do um now through the course of this week we may well get we should get wind next time the box put a coach up about whether calisi comes through uh today's training session but i think that's what he's trying to do.

22:34There's been quite a lot of angst here. The performance has been called embarrassing by colleagues in the media and he himself, Razzi himself, called it a hiding. He doesn't want the country to wallow in that for too long. I think he's trying to change the picture and that's what he's done by naming a team today. It's not unusual for him to go on Monday, is it? But if you don't know what your team is, it's pretty unusual.

23:01Charlie: I think there are so many fascinating calls around this side so Dion Fri back in having caused a lot of trouble for the All Blacks in the Stormers tour game but covering Hooker as we know he has done before but that suggests a big kind of workload for Malcolm Marks coming back. Should we get into the Pollard selection a little bit more because I just feel that Sacha Feinberg and Gomzulu they gave him time to get back fit he played in the Argentina game looked a bit rusty, looked rusty again on Saturday. But we've seen so many times, haven't we, the improvements that you can get with just that week extra playing together as a unit.

23:39Charlie: And they sort of have disrupted that process potentially. And I want to make this point on Pollard is that he's got all this amazing success behind him and he's still only 32. He's almost to the day a year younger than George Ford. So he can certainly go to the next World Cup. But I just feel that at the next World Cup, to be a sort of more multifaceted attacking force, the Springboks would want Sascha Feinberg and Gomazulu to have more games under his belt. So it does feel like a selection for this weekend rather than sort of thinking further ahead. Well, it was a pre-planned selection. He was always going to play in Cape Town.

24:20And I asked Razzi why Pollard is the right player, the right 10 for this game. and he said well it's Cape Town it's going to rain it was part of the plan I think he then went on to talk about that series of scrums under the posts and he said he took the blame on himself but as we know they went scrum after scrum after scrum it was like like being in Dublin in November 25 where it felt like they just decided that was going to be their route to victory and then they get one wrong and New Zealand win the scrum penalty and there goes their chance really in the game and Razzi's point was three points we should have been taking three points almost take a grip of it and go because we know what how tempting it is for that box team because of what they did in Dublin with the same referee to just you know and they weren't being clinical in attack to just channel everything through the scrum and I think Razzi one of Razzi's points today was we should have gone for we should have just taken the three and pollard is the guy they they trust to do exactly that as we saw in the world cup final as we've seen in in lions tours he's he's the guy they trust in those situations and i think you're right charlie that this is what this is now one of those situations this selection has to be about winning on saturday and one of the big conversation topics out here is about how the depth that south africa have can become counterproductive to them they could overthink things and I thought the the lack of timing in attack the lack of chemistry almost on on Saturday was the result of the fact that a lot of those guys didn't go didn't play in Argentina and those that did play in Argentina played in a very specific like tight route one kind of way so that how many times did we see Sasha having to like scoop the ball up off the floor because that put that ball out the back hadn't quite gone to hand and my feeling on Saturday night when I was invited onto another podcast out here in South Africa I just said I was asked what changes I thought he'd make and I was like well I'm sure he'll make changes and it sounds like he's got some plans but I would be reluctant to make too many at all in the back line because another week of of fine-tuning that timing and those relationships and then you've got then you've got a back line that you know how dangerous that they can be.

26:43I think the plan was always to play Pollard, but I think Grant Williams not being fit is also a factor because Razzie does like his partnerships in 9 and 10 as well. But it's a really interesting call. It's the return of the old guard, the guys who could be trusted to deliver at a crucial point in the journey of this team. And it is an enormous game for them now on Saturday.

27:10Alfie: Do we think that this selection in any way highlights goal-kicking concerns for the Springboks? I'm going to steal a point that you made here, Charlie, so apologies for that. But in terms of, we saw at the weekend, Alex, Colby was the goal-kicker, not Sasha. We know they don't particularly trust Marnie Libok, so he's dropped out entirely, so therefore you need Andre Pollard. Yes, I get what you're saying, it was almost pre-planned anyway, but does it put a bit of a spotlight on the goal kicking options that the box have available to them i reckon yes i think it does and he razzy was asked about he was actually just asked a very gentle question about why they'd gone with colby over sasha and he took it as a criticism he's like did did chesley miss any kicks no he didn't he's been our best kicker in training but he's not available and despite what they say i suspect he won't be available and so i wouldn't be surprised if sasha over Libok on the bench is goal kicking related because we you know we know what Libok can do to set the Springbok's attack going he's arguably the most informed creative fly half right now but he's a suspect goal kicker as we saw through that World Cup so I think potentially with Cheslin not there maybe Sasha got the nod on the bench ahead of Libok for that reason as a backup kicker but there's no doubts over Andre Pollard I mean that's why he's there and there's no doubts that if it is raining in Cape Town which the long range forecast says it will be his game management and his ability to take hold of those moments as I said he's done it on the biggest stages for the box before and that is the kind of stage in which he will thrive he might not be as electric as Sasha but I'm not sure that this game is going to call for that from the box.

29:07I think it's about doubling down. You can see them, particularly if it's raining, doubling down on playing a kick, pressure, territory, physical scrum game again.

29:17Charlie: I didn't come in today or didn't expect before this series at all to draw any comparisons really between where England are at and where South Africa are at. But we have seen at very close hand the friction between the desire to sort of win today and maybe alleviate pressure and then also simultaneously kind of the fans really desire to think ahead and push younger players, younger, more exciting players maybe and think about even the World Cup. And so to have South Africa here really needing a win when they seem to be progressing quite serenely towards the World Cup is a really interesting friction.

29:57Charlie: and you obviously balance that with the fact that they are very used to winning these effectively knockout games. But I'm really interested as to how that's manifesting over there, Alex, and is there a heightened tension around everything that's going on? Yeah, there is, and it actually started before the first test. I was in the same hotel just in the room behind us where Razzie named the team and then made a point of saying actually tests two and three are going to be where this series is decided. Of course, we want to win game one, but it's two and three. And he harked back to the Lions series in 21, where they dropped the first test and then won the series.

30:37But to win this series as a four test, they've got to win three in a row. And so immediately, there's nowhere to go for them now. They've got to win on Saturday. And so I think they have been playing that game of building depth while winning perfectly. You know, they haven't lost in a year until Saturday. And they've been bloody, they played, what, 45-odd players in July, which carried on winning, giving caps and test minutes into the next generation with an idea that, of course, the plan was they then win on Saturday. They make the changes, the positive changes in an environment of victory and they can keep building through the series but also through to the World Cup.

31:19But the practicality is, although the Pollard change, I think it's probably symbolic, maybe Dion Fury a bit, the Pollard section is symbolic. Although that was planned, they didn't have to follow through with that plan. But to me, it absolutely represents the pressure. And you talk to the media out here and Brendan Nell, our friend of the pod and friend of the Times, his view was, if they lose in Cape Town, they've lost the series. It doesn't matter that they can come back and draw it to all. There are three tests in South Africa and they will have lost the series. They'd have lost the chance to win it and they would have lost the tests in South Africa.

31:56That's the kind of pressure that Razzi and the box are now under.

32:00Alfie: It's fascinating, isn't it? The first thing we started the pod with, Alex, before you were able to join us, was how good was that result at the weekend for this whole series? We were excited about it anyway, but I'd imagine that must be your feeling out on the ground there as well. You were always going to have a great time. It was always going to be a great series to cover. but all of a sudden this thing is alive after that All Blacks win. It's very interesting being in neutral covering this series because I talked to people at SA Rugby and I said, this was before the game on Saturday night at Ellis Park, I was talking to someone from SA Rugby and I said, the best thing for this series, for the interest in it, for the commercial benefits of it, for the marketing, is for the All Blacks to win tonight.

32:41And he was like, no, the best thing is that Springboks win 4-0. and I was like but it's it's like it's not it's not because you can't market something as rugby's greatest rivalry if one of the teams wins it 4-0 like you've got to engage people and really for so yes for the for the success of the tour for the engagement for the interest the All Blacks winning on on Saturday and the way that they did it was um was the perfect thing to to set up this week and to retain interest certainly through the first three tests here in in south africa um it's absolutely the best thing for it and yeah being i i made that point on a south african podcast and i don't think they agreed with me particularly but i but it is interesting being being a neutral out here because you know they're both sides are so vested both both media groups are so vested in in their team and understandably so and it's it's actually a real pleasure to sit back and watch it and judge it and listen to both sides as a complete neutral writing for a neutral audience you know when we cover England we're neutral but we know we're writing for and broadcasting here to predominantly fans of the team here it's about the interest in the game and you know I know that the interest in readers we can measure it there's been a lot of engagement in the coverage that we've done I've had so many compliments by the way out here from I was just talking to the sports editor from Rapport the Afrikaner newspaper who pulled me to one side to talk about the pod series that we we pulled together on the history of this rivalry and and it's and it's great to hear that even people who understand the complexities and the and the history and the politics of that are all entwined with the rugby to make this rivalry what it is you know they they found a lot in in the project that we pulled together there so it's just fascinating to be out here um you know and there's a bit of paranoia going on okay as I arrived at the hotel the Springboks forwards were doing some line-up drills just in the car park by the team bus out the front um and I sort of stood and watched them through the window while waiting for the lift and then 10 minutes later the security came into the press conference room asking who'd seen it who'd taken pictures got to delete all the photographs and I hadn't taken it i hadn't taken any photographs but i can exclusively reveal that even et to beth was catching some of the line outs and then i think hobus ryanak was firing a few passes out i mean i don't know if that don't know if they really can take anything from that but yeah there's a bit of paranoia going on um but interestingly like referring back to 21 and that lion series this is the week where it went toxic this was the week when razzy released his video allegedly released his video it's the week he recorded his hour-long uh diatribe against Nick Berry's refereeing the tone is incredibly different this time around he's not looking at anyone else to blame he said repeatedly it wasn't the referee's fault he said repeatedly the All Blacks did nothing illegal at the breakdown for example we just didn't handle it it's it's a role reversal really from from that week and you know that at that point they do like being in this situation sometimes the box to kind of circle the wagons everyone's against us but it is only monday yeah wait and

36:05Alfie: see it's a long week what's the rest of the week look like then alex we'll let you go as we said series set up absolutely brilliantly can't wait for the second test what does your week look like so tuesday tomorrow is the the lions game all blacks play the lions back at ellis park i think a pretty sparse crowd is expected uh but it's a good lions team and the lions have been trading against the Springboks for the last couple of weeks. So I think the Stormers, because John Dobson really bought into the whole ethos of this tour, the Stormers were ready for the All Blacks. The other two haven't really turned up, the Sharks and the Bulls.

36:41There was lots of excuses about our pre-season and the Stormers were ready. I think the Lions will be ready to put up as good a show as they can. They've spent two or three weeks training with the box, so that'll get him in decent shape. Richie Mwanga's return to an All Blacks jersey for the first time since the World Cup final in 23 will be really interesting to see how he goes after three years in Japan. He's got a tough challenge to get that All Blacks the Test number 10 jersey back because I think Ruben Love is settling in really nicely to Test rugby, and because they play Damian McKenzie at 15 they're not going to carry a 10 on the bench.

37:16But his return's really interesting, and then we will fly off to Cape Town on Wednesday All Blacks will name their test side on Thursday and then it's all eyes on the second test and what a contest that looms to be in Cape Town.

37:31Alfie: Yeah, going to be awesome. Should be a good week. Good stuff, Alex. We'll catch up with you next week after the second test. We'll wait and see what's in store. If it's anything like the first test, then I think it's going to be a pretty fun occasion. Just a reminder that an evening with Lewis Moody is coming up for you. You can get your tickets at thetimes.com forward slash events. It's on Thursday, the 5th of November. Alex is going to be joined by Lewis Lowe's to discuss with him his new book, his diagnosis for MND and all the highs and lows of his career. So you can head to thetimes.com forward slash events to book your ticket.

38:01Alfie: Charlie, not around next week? Not around next week.

38:03Charlie: I'll be tuning in from holiday.

38:05Alfie: Good stuff. Well, Charlie will be back with us soon. No doubt we'll be back with you next Monday. We'll be reviewing that second test between the Springboks and the All Blacks.

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