An all-time classic at the MCG as the Lions win the series

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1:47Well, here we are again. Welcome back to The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times out here in Australia. as we look out at an empty MCG where myself, Alfie Reynolds, Will Kelleher and Alex Lowe witness one of the great Lions test matches in one of the great stadiums around the world. The Lions have won the series. Hugo Keenan scored the final try. We had drama at the end and the Lions victorious in Australia once again. Will, Alex, the only place to start is what a game and what an occasion. Well, first off the bat, stat bomb from Stu Farmer. Before today, the biggest ever Lions comeback to win a test match was just 10 points, trailing 13-3 at half-time against the Springboks in 1938 to win 21-16.

2:39Today's was an 18-point turnaround. So the greatest Lions comeback ever. They did it with the final try to win the series. That was pretty special, Alex. It was incredible, and it was everything we wanted this game to be. I don't mean the result of it, it could have gone either way, but as an occasion, as an atmosphere, as a contest, the Wallabies needed to turn up and man, they turned up for 50 minutes at least. Will Skelton, Rob Vallottini, just kind of the one-two punch they delivered had the Lions on the ropes. The Lions were retreating, they were in trouble, they were back to that kind of conceding penalty after penalty, get on a warning, yellow card, bang, bang, bang.

3:20the wannabes behind that power game we then got to see really what they can do with the ball and what incredible athletes they have and suali and tom wright and tate mcdermott when he had to come on on the wing and and was as slippery as anything and they're 18 points up and what you know what a performance they they delivered to get there we were sitting quite high up will and thinking as good as they've been will skeleton cannot last i just before half time dan sheehan scored as the lions started this comeback and i re-watched it and you could see skeleton was was huffing and puffing and dragging his heels he he was struggling by that point he'd given everything and he only lasted a few minutes into the second half valentini didn't come back though and gleason is a is a very decent replacement but they lost that punch and that power that upon which they built everything and which the Lions had struggled to manage and cope with.

4:20And the Lions came back. I think the Wallabies scored three points in the second half. What composure... One of the questions I was just asking some of the players downstairs, that Argentina game in Dublin feels so long ago and they only had half their squad. In Australia, the Lions haven't been tested. So when they're 18 points down, nobody quite knows what the character of this squad is. How will they react under the most severe pressure that they have experienced? And they kept their composure and they kept their patience. And I suspect they thought that the Wallabies' big guns are going to punch themselves out.

4:54But they had to keep their accuracy too right to the end. And it was just one of the great finishes, one of the great test matches. And it stands alone against the rest of the series and against the rest of the tour, which has been a little humdrum, a little too easy. This wasn't easy. This was epic. and they deserve their win. I'm just so glad that it lived up to the billing and it lived up to what we hoped it would be, which I think is what you said earlier, Alex. Particularly, as you say, with the tour games, it struggled to get into it. The Wallabies didn't really turn up in the first test.

5:29You got to the MCG and yes, we don't have a decider, but that was just amazing work. Well, let's pull back the curtain a bit. We were all a bit, maybe we were moping on Friday night in Melbourne. We were kind of going, is the Lions series going to go out with a whimper? For you, personally, Alfie, this is your first Lions test series and without revealing too much about our pub chats, you were going, I don't know, just sort of enjoyed the World Cup a bit more and is this a bit kind of nothing much going on and then, bang, 90 ,000. Skelton's wading through blokes. So Ali's running through midfield.

6:07It's all kicking off. Literally, there's scraps and fights and the Wallabies found their spirit a bit and a bit of biff. It was brilliant and had an amazing finish, an amazing comeback and it was befitting a Lions test, that, wasn't it? I had a comment under the big preview I wrote around Martin Johnson and his experiences. He gave the jerseys out to the Lions players with a few lessons from history, I guess. There was a comment from one of our readers underneath it because I'd made the point that when Tom Liner was taken out in the air by Tom Curry last week, not a single Wallaby came steaming in to protect their guy.

6:45And the comment was, well, why is that necessary? Well, you know, that's not a sign of anything positive. You just might risk a card. And I thought, you know, I totally disagree with our reader. And I think it showed up there today that the Wallabies were there and determined to send a message that they're not here to be pushed around. They weren't here to be outmuscled and overpowered as they were last week. and Skelton was right in the middle of that, but he was backed up by others and there was a lot more bristle, a lot more fight. Marrow and Will Skelton were having a chat on the touchline after the Brisbane game.

7:20They were teammates, weren't they? They don't hate each other, but this is a test match. This matters and you have to, it's about intensity. It's about can you dominate your opponent for those 80 minutes? And Skelton had Marrow around the throat at one point. No one's actually hurting anyone. But it's an expression of intent and intensity that we didn't see any of last week from the Wallabies. And we saw it in spades today, particularly when those two were on the field. And then it allowed their runners. We saw shades of the Twickenham game in November when they struck from deep. They're incredibly hard to pin down.

7:59Tom Wright. And also their kicking game was so clever. Tom Liner was good, wasn't he? Tom Liner. Responding to last week a bit. Absolutely, yeah. Because he had a bit more momentum. momentum, a bit more platform. And when Harry Potter went off with a hamstring injury, he looked devastated. And they brought Tate McDermott, the scrum half, onto the wing. And we're sitting there going, well, I wonder why they've done that, instead of bringing on Ben Donaldson at 15 and put Tom Wright on the wing. And then within two minutes, McDermott had beaten about three players. He'd stood up Tom Curry on the wing.

8:27And then Tom Wright had pinged an unbelievable 50-22. And you're like, OK, well, that's why. That's why. Yeah. Have you guys ever played those Mortal Kombat or Tekken games? Not for a long time. Like Yoshmitsu against Paul and all that. I felt during that there was a bit of skeleton running out of his little battery. You know at the top when you do those games and you fight the big boss. And you just, as he was fading and fading, you could almost see him physically going, he's crumpling. And maybe the Wallabies' performance kind of started to drift as he lost his batteries. I think Valentini as well.

9:02Yeah. It wasn't the plan to bring him off at half-time, Joe Schmidt said, but he was getting a bit tight, he said. But he was unbelievable. He had said that's why he picked 6-2 on the bench to cover some of these forwards that have been injured. Gleeson's another one. It was just a bit of a shame, wasn't it, that you thought, oh no, Valentini's gone, and then Skelton's gone six, seven minutes after half-time. And look, massive, massive credit to the Lions who stayed calm and composed. and I think we need to, well there's so many heroes in that Lions team but we've done it about, what, every pod almost through the last few months but Finn Russell, man, like he is such a good player and he's finally now got a Lions Test Series win under his belt as a director at 10.

9:49He missed goal kicks today and he was funny afterwards because we asked him about it and he was like, come on lads, you really think I'm going to be worried about missing a conversion? You know me well enough by now. and nailed that one to five metres. Well, because he just kicked one out on the full. Not long before that, he'd got his angles wrong and he nailed a couple of big kicks to touch which put the Lions right deep into Wallaby Territory, which is one of those small things in a game that you could go a bit safer and then your line-outs on the 22 instead of on the 10 or the 5. It just changes the complexion.

10:24It heaps the pressure on. and I thought he was outstanding. The Lions win it with a try. He was never looking for a drop goal. I think Owen Farrell was looking. He dropped into the pocket a couple of times. They were messing up the position a bit, weren't they? They never quite settled for a drop goal attempt and in the end it didn't matter. Tommy Friedman was just talking about the... I asked him about that last passage, the last couple of minutes and he talked about the accuracy at the end and Andy Farrell was big enough, Gibson Park, who played the full 80 and how fizzy and how accurate his passes were.

10:59And then Toby Freeman made the point about the breakdowns needed to be quick and clean. We'll come on to the conversations about the breakdown. But Jack Morgan hit two really important clear outs in that section. I thought the Lions bench did exactly what it was picked to do. Genge was brilliant off the bench. Genge came on brilliant. Will Stewart as well. Will Stewart came once he'd swapped boots with Ty Glewell. That was so funny, wasn't it? He put on Tyg Verlong's left boot, which is a completely different colour and make and everything. Yeah, he had a boot problem, but it didn't seem to hold him back.

11:32He was excellent. James Ryan, who's been kind of a bit anonymous this trip, you suddenly saw him. I mean, it really mattered. He made a big impact off the bench. But there's plenty in the start of 15-2. You saw why they wanted Bandiaki. You saw the direction, the power, the ability to get the Lions driving forward was really important to them. and I thought he delivered that and then he had to play the whole gang and he ended up with some horrible cramp towards the end. You could see him struggling. But he was big. Dan Sheehan was big. Tom Curry, again, big. I mean, amazing tap tackle on Sueli.

12:07I mean, look, everyone looks through little moments in these games, but that was a massive one. And Jack Conan, I think, again, Russ Petty pointed this out, the great statistician on Twitter, that he had a combined tackles and carries number of 31 and that was 20-odd tackles and that's the most in the Lions Test match ever since they've started counting these things, which beats Toby Faletel from 2017, I think, of 30. So he had a mega game. I mean, and they've won. They've won the series. That's it. That's it. All done. And they've spoken about wanting to win 3-0 and wanting to be a special team and you can't take anything away from them.

12:41And I suppose, I know we mentioned it on the pod the other day about the Ireland-Leinster thing, not getting through big games and big moments, but... They've ticked a big one off there, haven't they? They came from behind. I mean, there were moments, weren't there though, when they were chasing shadows, the Lions, and Suley ran through Bundy, the biggest midfield hole you've ever seen. I mean, I know the Lions had Tommy Freeman in the bin, but the ill discipline of the Lions, there was a lot of offside penalties. We've had that all tour, really. And they conceded. Tommy Freeman got yellow carded when Slipper scored the try, and then there were two more tries.

13:17It was like the worst possible 10 minutes sim bidding, wasn't it? but they fought back to get within a few points before half-time and then the chat at half-time must have been so much calmer. At the risk of repeating myself, that fascinates me because how do they know that they've got that in them? I know these are the best players around and they are hardened test match players who will never give in but teams have built character. Teams have a character and there are teams, maybe even a totally different style of rugby but that Quinns team that won the league they were never out of a game ever because they just had this flow, this belief this Lions team, I know I've said it before but no one knew what they were, no one knew whether they had that depth of character, they've got the players but did they have the team ship, did they have the bond, did they have the kind of camaraderie, the guts to pull together and find a way no one knew because they hadn't had that tested at all.

14:18I don't count on the Argentina game because they only had half the squad. So at 18 points down, they had to prove something to themselves as much as anything else. And that's pretty special to then go and do that, I think. But do you know what I think would have given them encouragement in this game? And I think the thing that was always dangerous for the Wallabies, in particular that final phase of play, I was thinking danger here when the Lions got into the 22. When they got into the 22, they pretty much scored, particularly in that first half, didn't they? Like the Wallabies actually controlled the first part of that half really well.

14:51But when the Lions did get into the 22, they scored. And I think that is probably the one thing that the Lions would have been thinking about, that yes, we're on the ropes. Yes, the momentum's been against us. Yes, we've had defensive lapses and ill discipline. But when we get into the red zone, they were coming away with points. If you flip this around, you've got to be sick if you're Australia. Oh, totally. I mean, so utterly, utterly deflated. You're 18 points up when everyone like us has called you meek, mild, weak, wet wipes, all that sort of stuff, which I thought was all fair comment. They were soft last week and then they turned that back on.

15:28Wet wipes was particularly strong, but sure. But they had it. They absolutely had it. They were miles clear. And also what we mentioned on the pod the other day of come with a game plan, execute it brilliantly, and who knows? And unleash the athletes. We saw so much more of Sur Lee today, didn't we? Yeah. Like running into big carries in midfield. And there was a good point that John Barkley made where he talked about Valentini and Skelton and the way they fall forward all the time because they're so heavy. And that was so obvious here, wasn't it, Alex? Like every carry was making massive yardage.

16:04And it was, again, obvious that they were using Valentini one punch, Skelton another punch, then Sur Lee. And just like that should be the blueprint for Wallaby rugby now. like massive let's be honest Polynesian size and then amazing athletes off the back of it and look I hope they grow into a team that can compete hugely and blood is lows and come up to Europe and start tearing people apart like they did at Twickenham and then when we come back here in two years time that they're an awesome team to be reckoned with because they've built on it but I think that we've criticized Joe Schmidt for playing all of this thing down but I think one of the things that he said during this tour that is bang on is just that experience thing like Tom Liner, this is the second test he's ever started at 10.

16:43And he was very good. Skelton has won loads of stuff and they brought him in. But other than that, they've got a team of people who have not won anything. But I also think there's a part of that that comes back to where Rugby Australia have to carry the can here to a degree. And to credit another one of our number, Chris Jones from the BBC. And I was chatting to him pitch side actually here yesterday for the Vision Access. Look back to the World Cup or look back to the end of Dave Rennie's tenure. You get rid of him, you bring in Eddie Jones. It's an absolute disaster. He has a guy at Fly Half in Carter Gordon that's not even playing rugby union anymore.

17:17They also had Mark Nawanganita Wasi that's also gone to the NRL. That's the commentator. But you've got... So the guy that one head coach that you brought in ended up being a disaster. The guy he had earmarked as the future 10 isn't even playing the sport when you end up getting to the Lions series because you're not able to hold on to him because you've got a whole load of 10s that they've essentially contracted, essentially, I believe I'm correct in saying. And so he could go to NRL and get paid way more. That's where I think it links to the whole structure organisation of the game and where Rugby Australia really need to look at themselves and get their house in order.

17:50It's felt since we've been here, Alex, hasn't it, that the Australians are just doing this on the fly. They're not ready for it. None of their franchise teams have got a hope of getting anywhere near the Lions. And then they take the Wallabies out. They give themselves one test match to prepare, which they were pretty terrible in against Fiji and Newcastle. they're totally off the pace in the first test and then suddenly they come back for the second one but it's all too little too late. But that's where it must be so frustrating for the Wallabies fans and speaking to a couple of the Aussie press pack before this game they were saying, or it might have been before the first game but anyway it doesn't really matter they're saying they are capable of having these performances.

18:24Yeah, Twickenham. Twickenham, but in the Rugby Championship they've been close against the All Blacks and then just fallen away at the end of games there's clearly potential there but it's just not quite coming to fruition at the moment. Yeah, and we have discussed the state of Aussie rugby and the biggest challenge they have is persuading schoolboys to carry on and sign professional terms with super rugby teams rather than move to the NRL. Now the NRL is expanding from 17 teams to 20 teams which means there'll be an even greater demand for the best rugby players coming out of schools and at the moment because there's only four professional teams in Rugby Union there's going to be 20 in Rugby League the opportunities will be there to play first grade NRL rugby way quicker they don't have the money to compete I think I said on the pod the other day John Connolly who I went to see when we were up in Brisbane who was heavily involved in different generation but identifying John Eales and some of the greats of that generation.

19:31He brought them through. He spotted them. He also signed Elton Flatley, who was the Wallaby 10 in the 03 World Cup. He had terms agreed with the Brisbane Broncos, NRL, but he was like, no, Australian rugby needs this guy, so they paid more. He recommended that they sign Caelan Ponga, now one of the leading NRL players, when he was a schoolboy in Queensland, but they didn't pay the money. And that's where this battle has to be fought for Australian rugby because if you're going to get the superstars out on these pitches for the World Cup and beyond, you've got to get them early. But you talk about how sick they must feel tonight.

20:11Let's just paint the picture of where we've just been downstairs. So the Lions changing room was right next to the room where we had to do the press conference. We spoke to Andy Farrell and Marrow while the Lions players were singing. That was one thing. Something else for Harry Wilson and Joe Schmidt. Joe Schmidt's a bit more calm and collected, but Harry Wilson, who was fighting about the tears on the field at the end of the game, I imagine frustration as much as desolation because of what happened at the end, which we will come to. He's having to sit there and try and sum up all these emotions, everything that had gone into this game, his desolation, his frustration, while coming through the door are the Lions going through their full songbook.

20:56It was karaoke. What did we have? We had angels. Robbie Williams, yeah. I think they're all tailored versions for this squad. But their big team song is a version of Rockin' All Over The World, which Finn Smith has written and which the players are guarding. They won't tell. But we could hear. One lyric got changed tonight and it was series in the bag. Yeah, I think they've changed the lyrics as the tour's gone on. It's Farrell and Captain Marrow. Yeah, that's definitely how it finishes. Maybe we should go and do karaoke. Yeah, and then they went through Sweet Caroline and Angels and... A few Irish songs in there as well.

21:32Man After Midnight and Dirty Old Town. But all that is blasting through. All of that is... And it's like full volume... You can barely hear Harry Wilson. ...just through the door while Harry Wilson's got to sit there and take questions on how it feels to have lost. and then the key decision at the end. Let's do it.

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22:33No endless searching required. Thousands of growing businesses already trust Upwork to hire highly skilled freelance professionals for everything from one-off projects to ongoing support. It's free to sign up and posting a job is easy. Visit Upwork.com right now and post your job for free. That is Upwork.com to connect with top talent ready to help your business grow. That's U-P-W-O-R-K.com. Upwork.com. Hi, it's Mark Bittman from the podcast Food with Mark Bittman. It's back to school time, which means many of us are going to be busier than ever. But from getting out the door in the morning to enjoying delicious meals together at the end of the day whole foods market can help with convenient options and delivery plus because it's whole foods market you can feel good about the quality of the ingredients shop back to school must-haves at whole foods market in store or online you're a pro at running your life at committing to your workout at showing up every day at bombus we're pros too pros at making socks our sport assortment has specialized socks for whatever sport you're committed to.

23:39Running, hiking, golf, Pilates, and so much more. Made with sweat-wicking yarns, blister-fighting details, and targeted arch support. Bombas Sport is pro-level socks from the pros of socks. For another pro, you. Go to bombas.com slash audio and use code audio for 20 % off your first purchase. That's bombas.com and use code audio. Yep, so decision at the end. Jack Morgan clear out on Carlo Tosano, which They did check and decided that they both arrived at the same time. There was a rap there, so didn't penalise Jack Morgan for a contact to the head. The Lions, in their press conference and in all their interviews, say absolutely nothing wrong.

24:19The Wallabies, absolutely gutted. I think pretty furious at the officiating and even suggesting, because it was the final play and a deciding moment, that they didn't want to make that decision. What do we think? So, OK, let's run it through. So Jack Morgan arrived, what, a split second after Carlo Tisano at the ruck. He clears him out, bending downwards in a very similar position to Tisano himself. And looking at multiple replays, is it shoulder to the sort of back of his shoulders kind of thing? Possibly. Neck. Possible neck. But it's fairly unclear exactly where he hits him, isn't it? The referees have a look at it.

25:04They think it's fine. And everyone's happy apart from anyone wearing a gold shirt. So Joe Schmidt then... So Andy Farrell first says, I think it was a great clear-up. And actually, Finn Russell went a bit further when he spoke to us a few minutes later and basically suggested that Tisano took a dive. And he said, the bloke's thrown himself back looking for a penalty. Of course, he's going to do something like that kind of thing. And so the Lions are absolutely clear that the Wallabies were trying to buy a penalty, which is probably too far one way. And then Joe Schmidt comes in and says, we've watched it a million times.

25:38And all you need to do is look at World Rugby's law 9.20. He even quoted the number. Someone's found in the law book, which I will read to you. It says, in both the tackle and clean out, as per current law, a player must not make contact with an opponent above the line of the shoulders. so that's the first bit that he's saying Morgan is broken then there's a few other bits to it it says every time the head or the neck is deliberately grabbed or choked the offending player runs the risk of receding being a yellow or red card that one's irrelevant because there was no grab or choke was there head contact and clean outs around the neck must be penalised again I don't think that's relevant and then there's a final point which is in bold red match officials should work together to ensure that foul play is strictly penalised and that player welfare is paramount.

26:27And this is where I think Schmidt went way too far. And look, I understand why he's annoyed that they've lost the series and he thinks a marginal call has gone against him. But he then said categorically that the referees are not looking after player welfare, which I think as an international head coach is a very, firstly, bold thing to say and secondly, incredibly disrespectful to the team of referees who are basically the guardians of the laws of the game and are there to look after the players. And so as a head coach of a national team, to say that the referees are disregarding player welfare by allowing that is a huge thing to say.

27:09And it's something that World Rugby will look really badly on and could well bring him in front of a disciplinary. And I actually went back at him and said, I'm sorry, are you genuinely saying that you think the referees have no regard for player safety? And he doubled down on it. And I found that extraordinary. I don't know what you guys made of it. So did you think he was saying generally the referees aren't looking after players' safety? He was saying about that exact point. And that's what I mean. That clear out. Yeah. So I didn't know whether it was more with this specific clear out, I don't think they've looked after the player, rather than a wider point of referees aren't looking after players.

27:47Yes. But again, you're going, you've got to be very, very, very, very, very confident to say something like that about a referee, don't you? That's a really, really punchy thing to say, that they are disregarding basically the brain of Carl Tosano. That's what he's suggesting. And I feel like we haven't asked them yet because it's nearly midnight here, 20 past midnight. But I would be surprised if World Rugby aren't ready to slap him across the wrist for that because we can't be having head coaches calling into question referees looking after players. The other one that he was annoyed about too, which actually he made a bit more of a wider point about, was Dan Sheehan's try, which is a perfectly legal try, right?

28:30Because you can't dive into a tackle, but you can dive to score a try. If you weren't allowed to dive for the line, a winger would never score a try, would they? So like a few laws, the law changes when you're on the goal line, and that's one of them. but his point there was that how's anyone meant to tackle him are we are we saying well rugby that you have to tackle him in the head because that's the only way of stopping him and i don't i don't know the answer yeah i think that's a really interesting question because the two defenders went down for the usual sort of chop tackle on the line and he therefore just died straight over the top of them now i thought it was an awesome finish very clever very clever good knowledge of the laws and it was very because it and it was a it was a variation on a close range penalty style situation it was the most basic one ever it was just go dead straight and dive yeah that i've never seen but he literally he tapped it took a couple of paces and dived headlong over the two defenders who'd anticipated him crashing it up so it got down as low as they possibly could to make the tackle and joshua's point is well the only way therefore just is to have one of those defenders upright so that he then dives straight into the defender head first how how's the defender supposed to make that tackle I think that's a legitimate question to put to world rugby because what you know one of the as you say Will one of the the kind of oddities of rugby is that the laws do change a little bit when you get to the line because you know the pick and go situation a pick and go situation in open play almost every tackle that's made to stop the pick and go on the line would be penalised in well you can reach through a ruck on the goal line you can collapse them all over the goal line there's loads of things that change because just because to stop a pick and go you're going to end up tackling them above the stopping them above the shoulder because the the ball carrier is bent at the waist very low down the only way to do it but that's accepted because it's in a pick and go situation on the line there's an understanding that that that is the only way but that that required a lot of conversation at the time that these laws, the kind of head height, the tackle laws were examined.

30:35The one about Jack Morgan's clear out is that once the officials had decided that there was a split second, basically they were in for the ball or into the situation at the same time, then they couldn't give any foul play. Now, I haven't seen, I haven't had a chance to look back at it in slow motion, but someone said to me that Tisano isn't 100 % legal as he enters the ruck in the first place. There was a mention of a hand on the floor. If he wasn't 100 % legal, then where do you go? Do you penalise them both? Where do you go with it? I understand why they're upset, because there was contact above the shoulders, onto the neck.

31:16Was Jack Morgan's left arm wrapping? I understand where they're coming from, But I don't see enough of a penalty in it, personally, because they're both so low to the ground. How do you clear somebody out? It's very difficult. There's another law in the book, 15.3, which says players involved in all stages of the ruck must have their heads and shoulders no lower than their hips. Well, that never happens. So let's just have no rucks ever. So this is where it's kind of like, if we go through every single breakdown and we nitpick, then the game's dead. And actually, my view is it's almost the other way.

31:49I was surprised they looked at it. if that was a ruck of any other time in the game they'd never have a look but because it was a winning try they thought they better and so I'm glad that it wasn't it didn't deny a match winning try for an absolutely 0.1 second mistake basically I felt like it was a classic case of I can totally see how people can see it both ways when I first watched it I didn't think there was enough in it But I can also understand why the Aussie press or the Aussie team are looking at it and saying we have been robbed here. And I think it's a classic one like that, that it could go either way.

32:30And therefore, I don't really have a problem that the officials haven't ended up penalising it. But equally, had they turned around and said, actually, we have probably seen enough here. I'd probably also say, well, OK, fair enough. Do you know what I mean? I don't think. I think the two laws that Will's read out, if you apply them both at the same time. They contradict each other, don't they? They do. And I think, therefore, the second one about you're not supposed to have your head below your hips means that if you then get cleared out in that way, you've sort of forfeited the right to the protection.

33:01Two wrongs don't make a right, Alex. To the protection from the other law. Yeah. Because you're in a position that you're not supposed to be in. Now, I think what they would have wanted to happen was that there'd be a rat around the torso and then you'd drive through. you've got to be careful there though because if you wrap around the torso there's a crop roll which they hate that as well don't they? Torso and one leg Sam Warburton will show you he's got masterclass videos on it but he would want you to wrap around the torso lift one leg and drive backwards Will you love succumbing yourself to these kind of physical changes is that going to be the next one?

33:37I got cleared out a ruck by Sam Warburton no thank you Jesus but like it's a fascinating one isn't it and look it's not just line series where we nitpick over these tiny things, but it did make me think of 2017 and the Ken Owens, we play for a scrum, the Roman Poit thing. And do you know what I've heard? This is absolute gossip, but I've heard on incredibly good authority that there was a private line between the TMO and Poit on that night, which no one has ever heard. And so no one can ever tell me this is wrong because I've heard it from people who know and there's no footage of it, where the TMO said to Romain Poit, are you sure you want to decide the series on that call, Romain?

34:20And he went, we play for a scrum. So actually, where we have all for years gone, great diplomacy from Kofi Annan, Sam Warburton, it was Romain Poit saying, I don't fancy giving that, actually. And look, I'm not saying that happened tonight, but it's fascinating, isn't it? Like, all these series, we have one of these, don't we? Where no one agrees. Unlike, God, there were millions of them in the last series, which ruined it because Razzie put them on a video. But, yeah, it's... I think the right call was made in the end, and Australians will go, ah, well, you wanted the Lions to win, which we're not supporting anyone here.

34:55We're just, that's the game, brother. Well, look, to be totally honest, I kind of wanted the Aussies to win tonight, so we've got to decide it. Boo. It's because your wife's Aussie, so you've got to... Yeah, she's not happy, I'll be honest. She was here tonight with her dad. Oh, no. Yeah, they were pretty gutted, I think, which you can understand. Can I make a point on the Aussies, though? like we've talked a lot through this tour about the state of Australian rugby and how it's not quite where it could be and all that but that was great tonight and I know that there were loads of Lions fans here making it up to 90 plus thousand which is the biggest Lions crowd ever in Australia not the biggest ever because they had 100 ,000 in 1955 in South Africa but they can surely capture something from this off the field as well as on it like on the field they've got the athletes and they've got the power if they can get them on the field and off it you're like this is not a rugby state.

35:41There's no team here. And they managed to get a massive crowd, a huge occasion, a brilliant game. Lots of people are going to go back devastated, but they saw a belter. And so hopefully they come back again. And then we grow this pie in Australia. Is the World Cup final here? No, Sydney. So they have put it in Sydney. They've battled about everything, Sydney and Melbourne, forever, to the point where they had to create Canberra so that neither could be the capital, basically. Yeah. Let's round it off then, boys. Lions, Tunis. We should give it to the Lions, really, shouldn't we? Because we've maybe questioned...

36:10win in 12 years first series win in 12 years 2-0 unbelievable occasion unbelievable way and composure to finish that off as well it was just getting to the point wasn't it with about 3 minutes left where you're thinking their window is really slipping here like one more drop ball or something or a penalty and you're done they had to shoot their shot and they did it perfectly they'd been down there a couple of times hadn't they they'd been a knock on this was their last chance to go and win the game however they they chose to manufacture it and I was there watching I was fascinated by the mentality of Owen Farrell and Finn Russell together because Andy Farrell was asked whether they'd talked about drop goals.

36:50He said, Finn Russell doesn't do drop goals, does he? Is that what Owen does? Owen definitely does. And there were a couple of times where Owen dropped into a central position. He was like hovering behind a pod, wasn't he? But then each time he did it, he then had to rush in to secure the ball at the breakdown. So they were never quite in a position to drop a goal. And then in the end, it didn't matter because they manufactured, maybe with Jack Morgan's help, they manufactured the winning trial. We were saying when there were about 10 minutes to go, the FAS drop goal would just be the most unbelievable story, wouldn't it?

37:23And I was saying it would be amazing if he did it and then just ran off, like Imran Tahir, when he takes a wicket, just doing laps to the ground, just going, now boo me, go on, now boo me. It would be so good. My last thought, if you think back to early in the tour where we didn't see Hugo Keenan because he was tied to the hotel bathroom, ill for 10, 12 days, lost six kilos, kind of rolled out to play the Waratahs when he was feeling dreadful, played badly because of it. He'd been, as he said, I couldn't get off the jacks for 10 days. At that point, you would not have picked him to be the series winning try scorer.

38:03Lifted on the shoulders as he went off. But, you know, the Lions came strong. Blair King, who I thought was excellent as well. We haven't mentioned him off the bench. So, yeah, they deserve their flowers because they've cruised all the way around Australia up to the point where they had one game to win to take the series. And then they were made to really battle for it. And we saw what this team is made of when it really mattered. And I think that's quite a cool thing. And at the elite level sport, when you really find out what players and teams are made of, we saw that. It was class. And to round off with a stat, we started with a stat.

38:431927 was the last time the Lions swept a series. That was in Argentina. They won them all by 40, 30-odd points when tries were not worth five points. So they were really battering them. before that 1891 was the last time they swept a series that's what they've spoken about and the final thing actually i'll say on tonight is i'm so glad we got this match and this moment for yeah but just also just an iconic moment the keenan try at the end for this series because we didn't have that four years ago and the conditions of the touring covid obviously didn't help and the razzy video and whatever else but it feels to me the lions tours need these moments.

39:23They're what gives it lifeblood and keeps it going and the things you look back on and the moments that you talk about and that will absolutely be one and this match will absolutely be one. Well if we were doing another episode or another interviewee for the Red Lions series that we did before this, still available, can listen to it now we'd probably pick out from the first test the double Finn pass wouldn't we? One to Sheehan, one over the top to Tui Pilotto and then we'd pick up the Keenan the Morgan moment that tense bit I mean we probably talk about Sueli's amazing assist for Tom Wright through the middle and Skelton wading through everyone and all that so yeah we've because again that was something we were talking about off pod that kind of like have we really had a moment that you're really going to remember in four years and go oh yeah that game and we've had it tonight brilliant brilliant night brilliant occasion absolutely gutting for the Wallabies who played their part but ended up losing the Lions have won the series they are 2-0 up with a game to play in Sydney we will be in Sydney, podding for you once again, but it will be the Lions heading into the Melbourne night, probably to the casino or something to celebrate their win.

40:29We could certainly hear the celebrations in full flow at their press conference earlier on. So thank you very much for listening. Back with you next week when we're in Sydney. This has been The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times.

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