An all-time great 6 Nations produces an ending for the ages

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1:21Will Kelleher: Welcome along to The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times. Sunday morning, sun is shining on the streets of Paris. Welcome along, I'm Alfie Reynolds. And for our Six Nations debrief, what a Six Nations it has been, by the way, what a super Saturday it was. To my right-hand side, I've got Will Kelleher. Hello. Got Charlie Morgan straight in front of me. Hi, pal. And to my left, Alex Lowe. All right, Alex? Good morning. Lads, what a super Saturday.

1:47Alfie Reynolds: Incredible. Do we sound a bit like we're a bit gone? We're a bit lacking in sort of energy and pep, maybe?

1:55Will Kelleher: I feel like we're probably still brain scrambled a little bit. That's how I feel anyway.

2:00Alfie Reynolds: Melted wheelie beans all over the place.

2:02Charlie Morgan: Coming to our senses. I'm glad we're outside in the fresh air to sort of, yeah, as you say, pep us up a bit. But you're right, I'm nearly being reversed into. So, yeah, that's live broadcasting. You've run over. No, but it was a phenomenal, phenomenal Saturday, a fantastically gripping tournament that came. It couldn't have come closer to the wire if we'd have scripted it, right?

2:22Alfie Reynolds: Can I ask Alex a question? and this is going to sound a bit like when Holly Willoughby asked the nation when that Philip Schofield stuff was kicking off but how are you?

2:31Alex Lowe: Mate.

2:31Alfie Reynolds: Are you alright mate? So Alex has had to do the on the whistle match report and that has got to be the most savage thing ever.

2:39Alex Lowe: I think that was the hardest on the whistle report that I've had to do. You talk to guys like Matt Dickinson, old colleagues of ours who was covering Man United winning the Champions League in 99 where their live copy is on deadline so they're writing as the game's going and they're starting to write that Ferguson's messed it up and the tactic's all wrong and then bang bang United win it with two goals in injury time and they've got to rewrite everything in about three minutes. Yesterday I couldn't even commit to one take. My job was to file a match report on the final whistle. So we would do it as what we call a runner so I'd set a chunk at half time sort of runner play stuff through the game but then the top which is obviously the key bit it depends what happens at one stage I was I had three different versions I was trying to write at once the version of England collapsing to another horrible defeat I was able to bin that one fairly early but I still had two two versions on the go which is quite common one England pull out a sensational win and one England lose with some dignity and every time I started to work on one of them something like something happens like just working on England winning and then France score.

3:52Alex Lowe: And so I got about 10 minutes from time and neither were quite in where they needed to be.

3:56Charlie Morgan: No second screen?

3:57Alex Lowe: No second screen.

3:59Alfie Reynolds: Yeah, of course.

4:01Alex Lowe: As in you didn't have a replay screen. So we had to go to the final kick of the game and it's the difference, and it could easily be the difference between whether Seaborthwick carries on as the England coach or not. I mean, it wasn't just the result, but it was the consequences of it. And I've not had a match where I've been doing the whistle report that has been that tight, but also with the potential fallout from it as well. If England win and suddenly France have lost twice and it's kind of chaos and knives out in Paris, England almost do it, but then you have to remind yourself that they still lost.

4:38Alex Lowe: You have to cut through the adrenaline of the occasion to just remind yourself, a moment of clarity, they still lost the game. They've still lost four games this championship. it's still their worst ever six nations and their worst championship in terms of defeats for 50 years so it might finish with with a bit of a high relative high but it's still really really poor and you can't you couldn't lose sight of that either even among the the kind of chaos and the fireworks and the disco lights in the stade of france so it was uh yeah it was mad and got back about 2 a.m so late that even the bars of paris had shut yeah that's that's not that's not because you went out

5:14Alfie Reynolds: and had 10 pints that was just the mix zone finished at what 1 30 or something and rewrite

5:20Will Kelleher: well they they love a late kickoff as we learned well at the world cup and yesterday was another one as you say getting back to the hotel in the early hours so we as i said previously we're on the streets of paris quite literally sat outside a little cafe here lots of people walking past the sun is shining blue skies we will try and get into everything over super saturday although there is an awful lot to try and unpack we'll start off in paris france the champions england with a spirited display i mean maybe before we we try to dive into england a little bit more it's got to be the the greatest end to a six nations ever isn't it it's clock in the red championship on the line penalty from quite far out and tomo ramos steps up to knock it over do we rewind back to

5:59Charlie Morgan: ireland's performance ireland's performance i think worthy of them being in the mix to stay in the mix of champions into that last game some monster performances from their big players ty burn was phenomenal cale and doris was phenomenal stuart mccloskey both sides of the ball and bearing in mind we were watching this game in a brasserie weren't we uh on your laptop on my laptop having yeah um sort of the vpn um issue and everything like that but that was a really impressive performance then we had had wales kind of i think getting what they probably deserved over for their improvement over the course of the championship and then you wanted we saw enough from france to sort of have them crowned i think as well but you're right to have it to have england put up such a thrilling fight and for France to still prevail with what that meant to the crowd.

6:46Charlie Morgan: You mentioned that someone mentioned the disco lights earlier. It is so intoxicating. They know how to put on a show.

6:53Alex Lowe: It was the last day that the championship deserved. It has been compelling the whole way through because every round has had a statement. Has that a story? Has that a twist or a surprise or a statement performance? And that theme continued right up to the last day, and Wales delivering, as you say, Charlie, they finished this competition, I reckon, with way more credit than England, even though they end up on the same points with the same number of wins. You can see how that team are growing and developing. Ireland's performance was out of this world, I thought. I thought Scotland played well, and yet Ireland were awesome.

7:35Alex Lowe: And then it comes down to a game in Paris, which twisted and turned the whole way through right up to the end. It was the finale that the Six Nations deserved, I thought.

7:45Alfie Reynolds: I can agree wholeheartedly and just say that I think that was the most astonishing match I've ever been at. France-England, it was just ridiculous. 94 points. And as you say, clock in the red, a kick not just to win the game but the championship and all the context around that. To have a Sean Edwards defence that's conceded 96 points in two games and won the title. and it was flashbacks all over the place because it reminded you of Lyon 2024 when Benel no arms tackle and Ramos kicks the goal for 33-31 it reminded me in a completely different context of Pollard's long kick in the semi-final at the same venue almost

8:22Will Kelleher: in exactly the same position on the field Jamie George referenced that in the mix 16-15 that's

8:27Alfie Reynolds: quite a different score line for 46-48 but yeah and there was a there was a shout that we were developing I suppose a few weeks ago where we thought that we could end this championship with every coach being under pressure or annoyed or each each country in their different way being unsatisfied by the six nations and now we've almost flipped it to the point where the only team now

8:49Alex Lowe: unsatisfied is England right I'd say so because France even though they didn't deliver a slam

8:53Alfie Reynolds: have gone back-to-back titles from the for the first time since 06-07 Ireland who looked gone broken dead on the floor in round one have raised themselves to a great triple crown level and some they clearly play for Andy Farrell so much there and they've discovered new players like McCloskey albeit he's been around for ages who's one of the players of the tournament Scotland I don't know they're probably leaving on a slump but if they zoom out they go some one of the great days against France another amazing victory against England Italy have had one of their best ever six nations albeit losing at the end and then Wales won yeah first time in three championships so we'll get deeply into England I'm sure but I think your reference to Lyon is particularly relevant

9:37Alex Lowe: because if you rewind to those two years England were playing a risk averse for a programmed brand of rugby and they then went to a fallow week in York and had some pretty open conversations the players made it known what they felt and they came out of that fallow week with a different attitude and they went to Lyon and they went toe to toe with France and they lost it at the death and while it was a defeat it felt like the birth of a new way of England playing and you could transpose that championship to this one or this one went deeper into the negative I guess but England were playing, they started well they got punched on the nose against Scotland and reacted by going tighter, more risk averse more programmed and they lost all their identity to the point where they hit rock bottom with a first defeat by Italy.

10:29Alex Lowe: They went to Verona and there were very clearly some pretty significant conversations had. And just joining the dots, I really suspect that this was player-led. And I'm not saying there's a revolt. It doesn't have to be a revolt. But a lot of the feedback we've been getting is that the leaders in this England set-up haven't been as commanding or challenging as they probably should be. It's been a bit teacher-pupil relationship, I think particularly after they lost to Scotland. And the way that Maro, when he spoke to us on Thursday, he made a point which jumped out to me. He said, this game here in Paris is about character, not about strategy or game plan.

11:09Alex Lowe: It's about character, not about, we'll take a scrum there and a line out there and a kick there. And the immediate inference to me is, well, that's different. therefore was last week or the week before more the opposite more about strategy and plan rather than heart and feel and therefore I wouldn't be at all surprised if the players have gone right we need to own this which is a good thing by the way that's not a good thing own it they've come out and they've owned their performance and they played with feel and vision defensively suspect but with the ball they showed really what they had also showed in Lyon two years ago what this England team can do if they actually take the shackles off and go for it.

11:50Will Kelleher: I think that's going to be the question, is it, for a lot of England fans yesterday, would be where on earth has that performance been in the three games previously?

11:57Charlie Morgan: I think there are really sharp ways with which you can contrast certainly the performance in Rome and the performance in Paris. And you can do that from a tactical point of view just with the sheer open-mindedness of how they attacked. And that was crystallised for me seconds into the game. where Elliott Daly took the ball, took a pullback from Finn Smith, shaped a grubber in behind France, moved the ball to Caden Murley, carry, they zigzag back, and then on the next phase, the decision is a better decision to kick on that phase, and then Tommy Freeman nearly, they nearly score within seconds.

12:29Charlie Morgan: So there's a little bit more open-mindedness of kick return, and then the other thing that they had, they didn't have in Rome, clearly that selection of a third lock, which gives the line-out variety more scope to trouble defences, and that's so important we saw those two with those two tactical changes and the attitude i think that's hugely significant that almost revamps the entire side now you would say that england are naturally going to develop and become more cohesive and therefore effective over the course of six nations with time together however that doesn't to me excuse how poor they were i would say more so against more so against ireland that's that's the game that sticks out to me as being unacceptably flat and almost emblematic of how this side have sort of oscillated during it's like they've had five world cup cycles within a world cup cycle it's really strange and just not being ever able seemingly to build on a campaign and go up another level that to me is why this this has to be a line in the sand this this paris game has to be a line in the sand and a baseline certainly thinking about their attacking game and their and their

13:39Alfie Reynolds: attitude to attack as well but this is the thing Charlie isn't it is that I think the frustration for us that follow England and the people that come and pay their money and support them is that how many lines in the sand you need yeah like line of the sand Fiji 2023 before the World Cup line of the sand Lyon that York trip well sort of after that Murrayfield game where they couldn't catch a cold and then responded line in the sand after november 2024 that then got worse because they lost to ireland away start 25 line in the sand again after ireland line in the sand after scotland line in the sand after italy like how many bloody lines in the sand you need lads like come on and the second bit of it is that it was something maybe he was just reaching for something to say last night steve borswick but he yet again mentioned well that proves that what we can do and we've got time together, and you say, I'm sorry, mate, but that is not acceptable that it takes eight weeks, ten weeks together to produce something coherent.

14:41Alfie Reynolds: France have the same system, and they actually got worse through the tournament, didn't they?

14:45Alex Lowe: It also doesn't really make any sense, because Izzy's saying that the key days they really were waiting for were the days in Verona between losing to Italy and playing France. So Izzy's saying if they'd had one more week, that last few days is what made the difference? I don't buy that at all.

15:01Alfie Reynolds: And then the second bit is that, spinning off what you were saying there about us chatting to Etoje at Stade Francais last Thursday, there was a follow-up question I asked him which he couldn't really answer, and it was probably a difficult one because he probably can't exactly say what he really thinks. But the fundamental question with England is, why does it always take this bottoming out to reset? Why can't there be a team that resets when they've put in a six out of ten performance? They have to wait until it's a one or a two to then go, right, now we're going to get it sorted. It feels like they go in these long waves of performance.

15:37Alfie Reynolds: And that's not just been a Porthwick thing. That's been a 20-year thing.

15:40Charlie Morgan: And if you're really going to hammer that point home, and this is a point that Stuart Barnes has made in his piece, suggesting that it's time to move on from Porthwick, is that actually what does this newfound open-mindedness mean when actually there's nothing tangible to play for apart from pride?

15:58Will Kelleher: game yeah no other option totally do we think that was it for england that pressure is off six nations absolutely done they'd hit rock bottom so therefore there was a freeing of the shackles

16:08Charlie Morgan: which meant they attacked in the way that they did might be in a factor i think the i think balancing that there is the fear factor of if that hadn't worked they could have been torn apart really quite and really quite badly humiliated um there is something in and this again not an not an excuse because there are ways around this and with hindsight would you have looked at a the 10 12 13 more often if not from the start of this tournament if you've figured that that was going to be a a combination with a bigger ceiling but the total change from rome they were sort of predictably rusty in rome for a backline that was totally sort of um revamped in an unprecedented way and then they got better because if you stick with something the likelihood is that it does get

16:55Will Kelleher: better and it did it's so funny isn't it how I find particularly with international rugby you can often tell so early in the game of what it's going to be like I think I said this point at Murrayfield will after the Scotland game early on in that Scotland game you just got a sense of this is going to be a tough day for England and I was sat next to colleague of ours Rob Kitson at the game yesterday and after 60 seconds I turned to Rob and said that was a better one minute than England have produced in the three games previously like you could just tell that everything was sharper I mean it goes back to the question that I asked previously on where where on earth was that performance but it's so frustrating but also so strange of how a team can fluctuate so dramatically between performances every element of the game immediately looks sharper looks slicker the physicality the defense the intensity all looked better yesterday straight away and as you say it's so it's so bizarre when you see this England team and actually is this where we can

17:52Alfie Reynolds: give them credit and be positive about them and say look it's obvious that they've got it in them and it's obvious actually like so lots of the criticism of Steve Borthwick when you talk to people who know him or have seen the environment is that the more under pressure he gets the more he takes on himself and doesn't empower other coaches because it's like I think he's very hard and himself both he's very self-critical and very he almost like beats himself down quite a lot I think with his sort of like betterment coaching philosophy and always striving to get better thing but sometimes he is proving that if he empowers other people or lets others take the reins a bit more whether that's the players whether that's Lee Blackett whether whatever it can be the ceiling of it can be higher it doesn't all need to be taken on him and sort of shrink the whole thing down it can be opened up like a response to it doesn't need to be shutting everything down and almost bringing the floor up and the ceiling down it can be like well why don't we expand both and see where we get to like it was something that shane warne used to say about cricket wasn't it it's like you've got to be prepared to lose a game to win it sometimes and maybe there's a bit of that in there too that this can be a learning experience for england they like those but you know what i mean they've like it doesn't need to just all kind of collapse in on itself every time in order to grow i think the really important thing now is there's still kind

19:11Alex Lowe: of a certain headiness around that 80 minutes but there are a few in their review cannot ignore what happened in the weeks before it and i've got to go really deep into that is now critical because there's enough red flags through the championship to show that there are issues that need to be

19:29Alfie Reynolds: that have not been rendered irrelevant by a wild final game.

19:34Will Kelleher: And where does this leave England then? Because as you say, Alex, it was an amazing game yesterday. They almost pulled it off, which would have been, I think, the best result of Borthwick's whole tenure. They didn't quite get there. And we're sat here. England have had their worst six nations in their history, losing four games. Now, the sounds we're hearing from the RFU is that Borthwick's not going to lose its job. that's still the understanding ahead of them going to South Africa?

20:00Alfie Reynolds: I mean, I think basically the statement from last week still stands. And they are determined to look at this properly, get under the bonnet properly. I've heard that they're going to, it's not just going to be Bill Sweeney, Conor O'Shea and Steve Borthwick chatting. They're going to consult with specialists from outside rugby and also the board members and people like Ben Kaye who have been recently appointed.

20:21Alex Lowe: One of the reasons he's been put on the board to bring some rugby expertise.

20:24Alfie Reynolds: And he would have been one of the people that went in as part of the sort of 03 visit where they had a curry. And it's very easy to find people among that group who went in there and were totally taken aback at how bad that environment was only two weeks, three weeks ago. So, again, that stands. It's not difficult for them to roll some stones over and find some tricky conversations. That's a terrible mixed metaphor, isn't it? You know what I mean? I'm with you. and unturn some stones and find out what's going on here because I think there's a danger here that England slightly drink the Kool-Aid and go, there you go, crack tip, we can do it.

21:03Alfie Reynolds: Happy days, everyone go back to the clubs, don't worry about it. It's like, come on, arrest this.

21:10Charlie Morgan: To take it back to shamelessly steal a point that Alex made off camera is that that has to be a baseline for England because of the variety, not necessarily because we're heralding them for being extremely brave. They are merely showing what the most effective teams in this tournament did, which is a varied game where, wow, that is a lilac Porsche going past us.

21:35Alfie Reynolds: With a Monaco number plate. Wow. Same colour as your hoodie?

21:39Charlie Morgan: Yeah, well, she's clearly disgusted with the point I was making. But England have to be able to show the variety of their game. Ireland showed it. Scotland showed it. France showed it. to a lesser degree Italy and Wales even have shown that they can play off the back of this kick pressure it really did seem in the middle of that six nations that England just had had kick pressure and were really flat at doing that and and had a really ineffective attack and then when suddenly when they look a little bit rounded they look like they can trouble one of the best teams in the world that's why it's got to be a baseline and not a not a not put it up in lights

22:17Alex Lowe: my sense is there's a theme that covers a lot of these points about um slow starts and about energy through through the champ as charlie just said and it's and about what drove the performance on saturday is is it player empowerment you know i think there was a sense that that the players took ownership of the game on saturday and i said earlier that doesn't mean they've they've done a France 2011 and kick the coach out of the room and just go like we're running this ourselves or in England 07 or in England 07 but but it's like almost a much more collaborative conversation but the players are going this is they they didn't play against Ireland and Italy like they really believed in what they were being asked to do they played as we've all described they played as if they were being constrained here they played you saw their personalities within the game therefore they were playing their game and suddenly you saw how this is only this is an attack clearly they're vulnerable as anything defensively particularly out wide and in that space in behind the wings but that that's another conversation we're talking here about they put 40 plus points on on France in France and it looked to me like pretty much to a man those players were playing their game in the way they want to play and it was a rare occasion where what they delivered it It matched the vision that Steve Borthwick always talks about, about being big and bold.

23:45Alex Lowe: And that doesn't mean taking stupid risks. It just means backing yourself, moving the ball. They played with a character that I think that team bring when they are in some sort of ownership of the plan.

23:59Charlie Morgan: Identity and clarity, going right back to the very first press conference that Steve Borthwick gave as England coach. I'm going to give this team clarity. By association, I'm going to give it an identity. looked like they had an identity back.

24:10Will Kelleher: Two very final quick questions on England before we get on to France and everything else. We've mentioned Oli Chessman at six. I thought he was immense yesterday. Do we think that is the end of the three sevens in the back row for England?

24:22Charlie Morgan: I think so. I think that there's been a realisation in this tournament from England that they can run into breakdown difficulties with that lighter, more mobile back row and maybe what was working in the autumn, that real sort of contestable kicking playing off that which suits three sevens because there's a lot of mobility on the park i think sides found that out a bit actually because they had more to their more to their game you have you don't just have excellent variety off the line out with those three sixes you have a bit more power and therefore you have a bit more scope to keep the ball because you've got one more big body blast away jackal is and it was notable that england scored a few of their tries with low phase count but they also scored a couple of them off 15 20 phases which was when they were running out of ideas and actually they kept the ball long enough to get better shape which helped by that back line settling so yeah short answer yes i wonder whether that opens up whether they rethink a little bit the the sort of profile of back rowers that they have in the wider squad might be good news for ted hill finally might be good news for someone like emica ilioni um that'll be really interesting to see how that develops but I'd strongly suggest that that would be a way forward.

25:31Will Kelleher: I thought it was really impressive as well, actually, after England were held up over the line late on, the goal line dropout from France. The way England then went through the phases to actually score the try, I thought was really impressive. Final question on England. It's one of those games, right, like 48-46, one with the final penalty. You could go through that match and probably find something in every minute where you say, well, if that went differently, then it could have been a different story. I have seen England fans suggesting, if we look at those final couple of minutes, it's box kicking it away and then obviously the Henry Pollock strip which was brilliant but forcing a pass and knocking it on is it a game England should have won or is that just too unfair and you know you could look at loads of different moments it was wild

26:08Alfie Reynolds: but and it's sort of brutal to nitpick through a game like that as you say because you sort of want to revel in the glory of the madness but there were naive moments one of them like it's tough because Chessom scores one of the great intercept tries but you still go cold light of day cut inside a bit and actually watching the clip back Freeman is pointing to the post

26:31Charlie Morgan: well Freeman's been told off by Finn Smith before for not giving him easy conversions for Saints I have to say my phone my phone blew up with people who adore Oli Chesham saying he's got to go what's he done yeah

26:43Alfie Reynolds: and so then there's that one I mean there's 75th minute I remember Alex you were probably like ripping up your latest retry

26:50Alex Lowe: they were hammering

26:52Alfie Reynolds: it at the line it's when Gens got held up just before that goal line dropout England had a complete set of backs out to the right and I think it was a five on three and they just didn't pass the ball

27:02Charlie Morgan: Jalbert and Bielbiri in the defensive line looking nervous I mean that was the attack from which they scored from the dropout so in a wild game like that but you're right

27:12Alfie Reynolds: and then here's another one again I spent most of the game doing that just laughing which Alex you were probably like can you just shut up and let me get on with this bloody report but one of the most

27:24Alex Lowe: stop scoring tries please yeah

27:26Alfie Reynolds: one of the most remarkable things that made me do that which then was immediately sort of ruined was Pollock had two interventions in the last minute and a half which were insane it was so good and then he ruined it so he DuPont breaks down the right wing and Pollock has the pace and tackling ability to run him down run him down and like cheetah tackle him like dive on his back kind of thing

27:50Charlie Morgan: same lid

27:50Alfie Reynolds: yeah yeah yeah and And then a few phases later, he does such an amazing strafe, strip, that half the players on the field don't even realise he's done it. And then he almost gets so excited that he's done it that he goes, well, hey, we might even bloody score here. Passes a pass that he didn't need to give. And then Murley hacks it on because it's on the floor and he's just trying to get rid of it. And then it all goes to pot from there. You think, gosh, really tough. That was with 60 seconds left. That was a minute on the clock, yeah. And then they afterwards were sort of sour grapesing about the change of advantage from a penalty advantage to a knock-on advantage as Finn Smith is kicking away said advantage that then DuPont kicks long, Bielberet scores his fourth try, 17 in 10 tests.

28:35Alfie Reynolds: They quibbled about that.

28:36Charlie Morgan: Do you want to get into the last penalty? Yes. Because we've sort of come to the fair enough.

28:41Alfie Reynolds: And there's clarity on that as well.

28:43Alex Lowe: Yeah, so before we get into the detail of it, I'd like to make a slightly wider point. I think you said it feels harsh to nitpick, and it does. It's a wild game. Alfie said, should England have won? Yeah, because they easily could have won had they not made that mistake or that mistake. I found it pretty poor of England to come out after a game like that, so many points scored, to be picking out a couple of refereeing decisions. Borfit was fuming about the Genji yellow card penalty try and I know why because it led to 21 points France took full advantage when he was off but I was talking to a couple of mauling type 5 experts who felt it was probably the right call that Genji put himself in a in a position where

29:27Charlie Morgan: that decision could be made I thought that was another comical moment when they slowed down the maul on the big screen and they the three officials were going through going I don't think that's a penalty for blocking? Might be. They were just looking, if you slow down the mall, shock, you're going to see a lot of offenses.

29:46Alex Lowe: And then the decisions at the end, which we'll come to now, but I just don't like the fact that there's a lot on social and a lot from England going, wow, the referee has cost us this. So they might not have liked the Genji penalty, but they came back to lead after conceding those 21 points. They don't, they also had an issue with Amshar Kelly and the TMO kind of slightly messing up, well, definitely messing up the communication. They thought they had a penalty advantage. This is 64 minutes. Turned out to be a knock-on advantage, which is very different. They kicked the ball away and France scored from it.

30:21Alex Lowe: Again, that's an error from the officials. But England come back and take the lead again. So I don't like the idea of blaming the refs for decisions that actually cannot be said to have decided again when England put themselves back in winning positions on both occasions and had the ball in the last minute.

30:40Alfie Reynolds: So very, very quick clarity on the final decision, the penalty that won France the game. So lots of people on social media are looking at an Oli Chessom high-ish tackle and it actually wasn't that one.

30:51Alex Lowe: It's because that's the moment that Amster Kelly signals for penalty.

30:54Alfie Reynolds: But what actually it was given for was Trevor Davison tackling Brennan, which was a high head-on-head collision, which happened a little bit before that. And then they had a second option of a penalty when Otoje slapped the ball down. And, yeah, they took their time to work out the exact placement of the penalty. Because in the scenario where you get two, you're allowed to choose one or the other, aren't you? And that's why there was a bit of a fight. Because Otoje was making sure that Ramos put it exactly on the mark rather than chucking it a few metres forward. All that. So, yeah, that's the clarity on that one.

31:26Alex Lowe: So, it was a pen. It was a pen, yeah. It wasn't a bad decision. There's a lot of anger because people are looking at the moment that the pen's given. They were just looking at the wrong way. Follows a tackle which, if that had been given as a high tackle, you would say that's a bad decision. But it wasn't for that. And so both penalties were legit penalties. France chose to take the kick from where Maro knocked it on.

31:48Alfie Reynolds: Yeah, which was that, what, 47-odd-meter strike. And by the way, I know we're going to get on to France, but I love Thomas Ramos because he's such a one-man dichotomy. he's the most mental bloke who's like volleying the ball in the backfield loses his head all the time and yet is the most clutch goal kicker in the sport I don't get that and it's brilliant isn't it

32:14Alex Lowe: 95 % he's done those sort of grubber kicks in his own in goal area or volleys for assists for France and to lose that does it so often that that also feels clutch it's not like he's just being wild and loose

32:28Alfie Reynolds: Spencer is Penno, but you watch Penno and him sometimes in the back three, and you go, I don't know if they know what they're doing. And then he's able to do that. And you're like, the pressure of that goal kick is utterly insane. And he just walked up, smashed it. Never missing, was it? One of my hot takes. Went right through the middle as well. It wasn't like a nipper on one side.

32:46Will Kelleher: One of my hot takes at the moment, I think, is where are all the dead-eye goal kickers? Yeah, well, there's one. Tomo Ramos is one, and I think the best in the world. Everyone else fallible. The standard of goal kicking, I think, is very hit and miss. and again I'm not saying England lost because of this we're not going back through the game with a fine tooth comb but missed conversions for England tight game and you've got Tom Aramos who steps up and nails everything

33:08Alex Lowe: interesting point which I'm going to credit to the off the ball pod in Ireland about Jack Rowley's goal kicking and particularly conversions where you don't have as much time that he frequently gets right to the end of the shot clock and is almost out of time so therefore he's ended up putting more pressure on himself for conversions because he goes through sort of a breathwork routine, has to reclaim the ball, get into position, and uses up too much time. And there was quite, I thought, an interesting analysis there of he could make life a lot easier for himself and therefore improve his strike rate by just managing that clock a bit better.

33:44Charlie Morgan: Finn Smith's phenomenal bit of skill when the ball came up. That was just one bit of the vast content of that game. But I do think it was significant that Mark Smith took over from him when he came on. That felt like a big moment.

33:56Will Kelleher: Yeah, and so Tom O 'Ramos, brilliant. France, where are we? The way France have won this Six Nations sums up this Six Nations, doesn't it? In that after two or three rounds, we were saying, is anyone going to get anywhere close to stopping France? And then they get 50 put on the McMurray field and they lose, so they don't win a Grand Slam. And then they almost, they almost mess it up. And Ireland could have won the title having had a really mixed bag of results.

34:21Alfie Reynolds: I mean, it's a great position to be in, isn't it? To be annoyed that you've only won the title.

34:25Alex Lowe: it's like England would kill for that wouldn't they halfway through the championship it was a kind of a it was another Sean Edward special for France their defence was unbelievable and then they shit like 100 points in two games and I just saw the clip this morning of his ITV interview which he ended going I've won seven of these now and walks off I was like fair play mate fair play he does keep a tally of all the trophies he's won

34:49Charlie Morgan: they effectively won by rallying from 47-14 down at Murrayfield to get that bonus point and then winning a mad helter-skelter shootout

35:00Alfie Reynolds: we were saying that

35:01Alex Lowe: at the time in Rome I thought if I was working for Le Keep today that last 20 minutes in against Scotland I'd almost hold up as the most important 20 minutes of the championship do you know

35:12Charlie Morgan: who's amazing Ramos again was conducting that the point had gone off

35:16Alex Lowe: because they've been run ragged by Scotland their game's gone they're out they're out of the game they cannot win but what could happen is that they spiral and they don't get a try bonus and they don't close the points difference gap. But what they do is almost, it felt like they almost just restarted and went, right, new challenge, let's get a try bonus and it just gets as close to Scotland as we can. Because in that moment, an hour into that game, the test match is gone, but the title could have gone as well and it didn't and I thought that was, that was really, actually really impressive mental strength from France to not just completely collapse at Murray Thread.

35:57Alex Lowe: Because as you say, that ultimately is a critical 20 minutes.

36:00Alfie Reynolds: Someone's just walked past us and heard that we're recording a podcast and said with a strong Irish accent that England are bleep. Is that what he said? And I wonder whether that's come from a place of frustration. Because England didn't do the job that Ireland needed them to do. But can I make a...

36:16Charlie Morgan: He's looking quite pleased at himself. Looking through a few cards. finally making his way away.

36:24Alfie Reynolds: But can I make a wider point, which is related to France, but then brings in Ireland, is that we're sort of firmly, we were before, but we're firmly in the France-Island duopoly era here, aren't we?

36:33Will Kelleher: I thought it was over after the opening weekend.

36:36Alfie Reynolds: Well, yeah, I know, I know. But France Slam 22, Slam 23, Ireland Title 24, France Title 25, France Title 26. And then on the Ireland side of it, They've only dropped below a four from five, and this includes a five from five, in 2021. That's the last time they won only three games. And that's standards.

36:59Will Kelleher: Isn't that amazing as well for this Irish team at the moment? It's similar with France, isn't it? Yeah, but Alex, you were here on the opening night where Ireland were pretty poor against France. They weren't that great against Italy. They weren't that great against Wales, but they produced a brilliant performance against England, brilliant performance against Scotland. and they were one kick away from winning the title. It's incredible.

37:20Alex Lowe: I think Andy Farrell coaching, I just think he has the, talk about identity of a team and the man management of a team. The way that Ireland played and grew through this championship and the way they played against England, I think they're even better against Scotland. Just all stems from Andy Farrell coaching.

37:38Charlie Morgan: I'm really interested with the framing, how we look at how Andy Farrell is slowly kind of regenerating Ireland because it looked like that was a dead end almost. And it was almost out of necessity that we got Robert Balakoon, we got Stuart McCloskey. I know Robert Balakoon's 28, Stuart McCloskey's 33, 34. But they're going to be good to go for the World Cup, right? And they've been transformative. Darren Murray coming on yesterday, scoring a try during a bloodbill period. They're coming back and looking really assured in a really high-quality game.

38:11Alex Lowe: it's like Fogel's grown a bit of a beard and has suddenly become the angriest prop in six nations he wants to look a bit more like Alex Lowe

38:20Charlie Morgan: let's not forget they had a brutal injury cluster of loose head props the top three loose head props going down at the start of this tournament and they've ended up with a tight head in Tom O'Toole going really well I wonder whether there's been a healthy amount of defiance from Andy Farrell during this tournament going look I'm certainly still I'm he was criticized for being away during the Lions and and the team not necessarily moving on maybe as much as supporters would have liked during that period but I feel like they're in such a healthy place because they've come very close to winning this Six Nations and and broaden the sort of player player pool from which they're picking I think

38:59Alfie Reynolds: well that's right isn't it because you then look at it and go when the guys who have been injured who are clearly top-class players, come back, they've now got six props to pick from, not three. They've added depth on the wing. They've added depth at centre. You suspect Bundiaki's going to stay around unless he leaves the country or retires. But now they've got the option of going, well, McCloskey's actually better. And that's a good position to be in because then if you go to the World Cup with someone like Bundiaki on the bench, you go, well, that's a better 23 than you had a few years ago.

39:30Charlie Morgan: I can't get over McCloskey. He's so skilful. Wading through midfield. Some of the defensive breakdown work. Back rowers were smashing into him and basically hitting the floor and he wasn't moving. He's an absolute beast.

39:43Alex Lowe: And the fly half selection is so interesting because Farrell has invested a lot in Sam Prendergast. And you could say, well, he had to pull him out of the fire. And he did have to pull him out of the fire. And he's ended up taking him out of the 23 altogether. And Crowley, he did it at the right time. I think that's what I liked about it. He knew that a lot of his reputation was tied up into the selection of Prendergast because he'd backed him for so long. But I don't think Farrell cares about that. He's like, what's the right decision? What's the right decision? I mean, you could apply that to Owen Farrell being called up on the Lions tour.

40:16Alex Lowe: Just what's the right decision? And he was like, that's the right call. I would not be at all surprised when Prendergast comes again that he's an infinitely better player because he will be managed. His return will be managed. And that's, I think, that's where Andy Farrell is so effective as a coach. Because if you look at how Ireland reacted to losing out here, like A, detail, but B, emotion. Just like emotional intelligence, character, identity, all the things that England lost for two or three weeks after they got punched in the nose by Scotland. Ireland just grew it to the point that they came within one penalty goal of winning the title and I would I don't think Prendergast has gone and he'll be around this Ireland squad and he will he'll come back for as long as Andy Farrell's there he'll come back better because I think that coach that that coaching unit is really really effective the

41:13Alfie Reynolds: thing I find fascinating now like rugby's mad isn't it international rugby's mad because there's so small pockets of it and things change so quickly week to week that you sort of are always recalibrating what you think about certain teams but now you look at what's going to come in July and you go, France and Ireland are going to play the All Blacks and we don't know what on earth they're going to look like with Dave Rennie as the coach. And so how are we going to then recalibrate what we think about all of those teams when Ireland, France and Italy go down to play the All Blacks, Aussie and Japan and then the flip will be the England, South Africa, Argentina, Fiji, Scotland, Wales bit, won't it?

41:45Charlie Morgan: Dumb France, but Gautier was one kick away from being under pressure, peacocking a little bit in the presser afterwards. But he thought, that must have been pretty testy. and one of the first questions to him was did you feel fear? and he was like no no no it's just a sort of very complex game and he actually said there wasn't enough time to feel fear to feel anxious but I think he probably did a bit

42:08Alfie Reynolds: there wasn't a press box in order to beat fear you have to become fear

42:14Will Kelleher: hasn't that all been magnified though by this championship that Ireland after one game we thought was an ageing team that Andy Farrell had delayed the regeneration of it where were they heading? England after one game, 12 game winning streak title hunt, Scotland after one game defeat in Italy, absolute disaster, and all of where those teams find themselves at the end of this championship in a totally different kind of position to that, I suppose, which is an amazing thing. We'll have a really, really quick break here, and then we'll get on to Scotland, Italy, Wales, and maybe finish off with our team of the championship.

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44:39Will Kelleher: So Scotland, we haven't mentioned too much about them. They'll be disappointed with how they went in Dublin. Overall, though, is it still net positive for the Scots getting to the final weekend with a shot of the title that performance and victory over France feels really significant along with another good winner against England I would say so maybe they

44:57Charlie Morgan: will I think maybe the tipping point was losing their two locks for to go to Dublin I think they looked lacked maybe a little bit of steel for that trip and that's been it's really funny you speak to guys who've watched a lot of Calcutta Cup games and guys that have watched a lot of Scotland Ireland games and they will have vastly different views on where Scotland are how good a side they are and the Irish guys are always going look soft underbelly they don't rock up when the pressure's on England fans will go you know people say for example I've watched a lot of those Calcutta games and I think of the Calcutta Cup games and I think of them as a really sort of patient tactically smart team that are tougher than they maybe get credit for they didn't look like that when they're when their depth that sort of in the type five was was compromised and I think that's where Greg Townsend will want to sort of concentrate his efforts ahead of the World Cup I do think a

45:47Alfie Reynolds: lot of encouraging signs yeah three gate three wins are still their ceiling though yeah they all they're doing it in a different order all the time but still they can't break through and get four

45:55Alex Lowe: no four wins would have been their target three wins is is that it's par but beating england and france sort of makes it makes it okay i think yeah oh and the front i mean if you're a Scottish fan that's one of your best days you've ever seen isn't it yeah in like club cricket it'd be like a winning draw you know like you're on top you come out of it feeling good about yourself even even though it's not quite what you wanted.

46:18Charlie Morgan: Some 16-year-olds come to block out the last five overs.

46:22Alex Lowe: Like I said earlier on, I thought they looked really good against Ireland. It's just they came up against an Ireland team who aren't unreal.

46:30Alfie Reynolds: But then you look at the final analysis, and I know it blew out at the end, but you go, they had their historic shot at the title, and they lost by 21 points. Yeah. I like that Savage because the end's trying. Yeah, the margin is not really reflective.

46:43Alex Lowe: the key part was Ireland hit them twice to open up that window that gap and then they made 230 tackles whatever it was they just like they were ferocious defensively Ireland as well as being brilliant in attack Scotland just came up against a team who probably the best individual performance of any team on Super Saturday Ireland delivered Scotland just weren't weren't as good but I think certainly from where they started in the rain in Rome to how they finished the winning draw 3 out of 5 is par they want more but if you beat England and France in a championship and you land some blows on Ireland it's not the worst

47:24Alfie Reynolds: So progress for them is beating Argentina away, beating Fiji at Murrayfield he's got to do that and then what's the box? Honourable defeat

47:33Alex Lowe: Sounds similar to England

47:36Alfie Reynolds: what's next doesn't it? In lots of ways.

47:39Alex Lowe: I don't think anyone can expect to beat South Africa in South Africa.

47:42Alfie Reynolds: No, gosh no. Townsend's wrestled back his job. And Slotty wrote a good piece in the scrum on Saturday about is he the one who survived best out of this tournament because he's the one who's most used to crises. It's that sort of polarised point we're making of rugby so mad at the moment. And flips. And the one coach who's experienced more flips than anyone is the Scotland coach. Toony flip.

48:06Will Kelleher: it's an interesting thing with Townsend though because even like I know social media isn't the best barometer for these things but I do think it's hit a point now where after every single Scotland defeat you are going to see people that want a changing coach same with England isn't it? yeah but England almost regardless of the results sometimes depending on who you listen to definitely but Scotland have had a much better Six Nations than England whereas it feels like that with Townsend it almost doesn't matter what he does now for some Scotland fans

48:32Alfie Reynolds: is that just because he's been there for such a long time

48:33Will Kelleher: that people just quite like

48:35Alex Lowe: I think Scotland hit a point where they could have had two big wins in November but fell away. Then they lost in Italy and there was a sense that Greggy Townsend, could he take the team any further? Had they reached their ceiling under him just to the natural evolution of a coach in charge of a team? That was the conversation at the time. It's different with England. The England thing is their faith in that Borthick can actually allow this team to hit their ceiling. and we've discussed he doesn't have that warmer relationship with the English public etc. So I think if fans see progress and growth and can feel optimistic about where their team is heading then those questions don't get answered and I don't think you'll find people questioning Gregor Townsend at the end of the champ in the same way they did at the start because I think you've seen some growth and development in the team.

49:28Charlie Morgan: On to Wales-Italy, how important was that for Welsh rugby? yeah I think they thoroughly deserved it they showed sort of the togetherness that we've been talking about with like a dash of incision about their attack I thought Aaron Wainwright was immense they've unearthed Eddie James in midfield Rhys Carey has had a humongous tournament Dowie Lake as captain has been brilliant and there was actually a moment when again we were we were we'd just arrived at Stade de France haven't we so we watched the sort of end of it in the in the press room and the camera flitted to Jack Morgan in the stand you're going well you know they've got an elite back rower to come back in um and the reasons to reasons to be cheerful I think Italy are a funny one for me I I think I thought it was a little bit disrespectful to say that England fans were being disrespectful for being annoyed at losing to Italy because I actually didn't think Italy played particularly well in that game I think they have parts of their game that are impressive and it's important to say that they've also they're also missing quite a few key players certainly game breakers in the back like in the back side Kapuazzo and potentially Tadaro I know he's young but he's very exciting but that disappointed me from them and maybe that's just them getting used to this roller coaster that Six Nations can be and the difficulty with backing up sort of historic performances and big emotional spikes but yeah that that will be a dis because Quesada is just such a smart coach I think actually he will be pretty filthy with aspects of that England performance even but aspects of the performance against England but certainly the way they finished

51:03Alfie Reynolds: on the Wales point there's you've got to be pleased for Steve Tandy haven't you to be in that maelstrom that goldfish bowl every week to have basically the most existential crisis looming over your whole sport your whole national culture and to bottle something and create a team that fought for each other and tackled their hearts out in Ireland and then won the game won a game in the six nations the first time in three tournaments that's remarkable and you can also say with all of that you still don't have faith that they'll kick on from it because of all the chaos behind the scenes which is so sad isn't it you think they finally feel like they've got a character a spirit an energy in that team and some good players and you just don't have faith that that'll actually blossom into something because of the way everything's

51:53Alex Lowe: being torched it's not the responsibility of those that young team to to make up for the failings of the wru and the chaos in walsh rugby but how nice is it that they've they've managed to kind of at least part the clouds for a bit and the the noise inside the principality the last couple of games has been has been like loud and obviously has been bouncing and there's a bit of hope and a bit of unity in that squad and I think, yeah, what does kicking on look like? I think so long as they can keep playing with that same character like what they've unearthed, what they've forged there under Tandy, they're playing for Tandy there are some green shoots in that squad.

52:34Charlie Morgan: I'd be really interested, maybe it's one for the next few weeks but it'd be interesting to sort of interrogate how much the unity and the swell of support behind the team is out of defiance and out of you know screw the wru let's get behind let's get behind the team good point okay so uh need to

52:53Will Kelleher: wrap up let's rattle through very quickly a team of the championship don't need this be my definitive because we were asked for a team of the championship uh which i updated we had to file on

53:04Alex Lowe: saturday morning i updated it once through the day but then all hell broke loose at the stand to France and I never actually submitted my final version.

53:13Charlie Morgan: I won't say what the call was but I emailed in twice and the second time I prefaced it with I'm sorry this is pathetic but please can I? So this is the definitive. Start in the front row.

53:27Alfie Reynolds: I had Fischetti who's going to argue with me?

53:30Charlie Morgan: I had Carey. Probably vibes but he was classed in the last game.

53:35Alex Lowe: I had Fischetti but I would go with Carey. Let's have Carey for Icon. on status.

53:41Alfie Reynolds: Reece Carey. Sheehan, two?

53:43Charlie Morgan: Hooker from a slow start? That was my pathetic one. I had, at the start of the day I had Lake, swapped him out for Sheehan, swapped Lake back in. But you can have Sheehan, you can have Sheehan.

53:53Alfie Reynolds: And then I want Ferrari at tight head and it sounds awfully like he's had a really bad neck injury. So we're wishing him all the best there but I'd like Ferrari at tight head. I'm going to die on that hill. I'll have it.

54:04Charlie Morgan: If you want to die on that hill, can we have a very loud, robust chat out But for Joe Hayes, I think he's been fantastic.

54:11Alfie Reynolds: He's been his best player, probably. Him and Benal. Four, there's been a few sort of flocks knocking about. Alfie, you need to pick some here. Come on. Charles Ollivon I had because he played eight. You could pick him in two positions, couldn't you? Thibaut Flamont? Flamont. He didn't play all the games. Didn't play all the games.

54:26Alex Lowe: That's tricky because actually picking French players is tricky because they did rotate quite a lot. I had Ollivon.

54:33Charlie Morgan: I ended up with a really lightweight pack with Ollivon.

54:37Alex Lowe: I think I went ultimately I nearly put Oliven at 8 because he had to be in there somewhere so I think I went Oliven and then Tygburn so Oliven

54:46Alfie Reynolds: and Byrne we'll have that fair enough 6 7 8 I had Lamaro at 6

54:51Charlie Morgan: so did I

54:52Alfie Reynolds: I can be persuaded

54:54Charlie Morgan: otherwise

54:54Alfie Reynolds: I'm trying to remember who I had now who would I have had I had Darge at 7 yeah I had Darge at 7 so you have Darge Darge Lamaro I had Darge at 7 yeah

55:02Charlie Morgan: Darge Lamaro who's your 8

55:03Alfie Reynolds: we're going down this route of picking 2

55:05Charlie Morgan: 2 7s and 2 lightweight locks Proven it hasn't worked, Charlie.

55:10Alfie Reynolds: Eight. Doris in the end.

55:12Charlie Morgan: Doris with a big shout-out for Wainwright.

55:13Alex Lowe: Ben-El?

55:14Alfie Reynolds: Oh, yeah.

55:15Alex Lowe: Yeah, I think I went for Doris. I think I went for Doris, but if I had redone it at the very end, I probably would have put El back in because him and Hayes were England's two outstanding players. Yeah, but they also were the worst. And I thought the kind of consistency with which Ben-El just tried to get things going for England was really impressive. so I'd actually be yeah I I definitely want to have a shout out for Earl whatever we conclude

55:43Will Kelleher: on to Scrum Half my controversial take here is that it's not about Antoine DuPont it's Gibson Park or Ben White I agree with him

55:51Alfie Reynolds: DuPont didn't hit his highest of standards no he can't have an English

55:55Alex Lowe: are you keeping Italian because I suspect we're going to end up with more Irish than French which is going to might feel a bit weird but White

56:01Alfie Reynolds: I'll go White White you love a bit of Ben White don't you I love a bit of Ben White

56:05Charlie Morgan: I swapped him out after the Scotland game for Gibson Park. Back yourself, mate. DuPont wasn't... DuPont was phenomenal. He still... I think he got... Did he get three assists last night?

56:16Alfie Reynolds: Last night he was good. Scotland game, he wasn't great. There was one point where I turned to you and I was like, what on earth was that? Where he did the highest box kick I've ever seen in my life. He was like... He jumped up in the air. Having hit it, he was that powerful.

56:31Alex Lowe: It reminded me of when we were playing Paddle in Verona against Chris Jones. That's where the real championship was won. In a dome. And he'd got me in the corner and the ball was just dying on the glass. So I just leathered it straight up in the air so it hit the dome roof. I was like, let's. Which actually turns out in paddle rules that isn't that. I should have lost the point. So it just reminded me of that. I just absolutely wellied it as high as he possibly could. White, are we saying then? Go with Ben White. Happy with Ben White. I think Gibson Park But against Scotland, I particularly against England, was sensational.

57:08Alfie Reynolds: And then I had Jalibar, but then he made a couple of dodgy passes yesterday. But also so many lovely kicks for Biabare. It has to be Jalibar, doesn't it?

57:17Charlie Morgan: It can be Jalibar. I had Russell, but I think that was mainly because I forgot to update it after the last game.

57:22Alfie Reynolds: Right, Jalibar. 12, McCloskey. I think these are hard because there's lots of 12s, but not many 13s, which feels like the wrong way around.

57:28Alex Lowe: This is where you have to decide whether you can pick two 12s in the mid-final.

57:31Alfie Reynolds: Because the contenders are obvious of, like, McCloskey, Menoncello, and then... Tuipolotu. Tuipolotu. But the French changed their centres midfield three times, I think. Yeah.

57:41Charlie Morgan: There's an easy out, which is to... I don't think you can ignore McCloskey. Menoncello started with 13 on his back twice in the tournament. Oh, go on. And has... He sort of sets up there and attacked when he's playing with Brecht. Yeah, let's do it then.

57:54Alex Lowe: That's how I ended up with McCloskey and Menoncello. So no Tuipolotu.

57:57Alfie Reynolds: So McCloskey... But he gave some of the best quotes of the tournament. let's have an honourable mention for that I've done it for Gregor and all that

58:02Will Kelleher: yeah true so McCloskey and Menoncello centres and then round us off back three

58:07Alex Lowe: there's a French winger who just can't stop scoring tries who might sneak in yeah he might get in but does he want it though?

58:15Alfie Reynolds: yes he wants 17 tries I think he might have got in

58:19Charlie Morgan: on the basis of his M-frame glasses that he was wearing his 1990s Aussie cricketer glasses

58:27Alfie Reynolds: they were very zinc underneath type class. This was in the mix zone. We haven't even mentioned his name yet, but everyone knows who we're talking about. Louis Bielberet is just a complete joke. Ridiculous. Easily gets in. Easiest pick of the whole team.

58:39Charlie Morgan: Right wing, there's loads. So Atisogbe, Steyn, Balakun. Steyn,

58:43Alfie Reynolds: I'm saying Steyn.

58:45Charlie Morgan: Steyn, you can have Steyn. Balakun, shout out for just being transformed. I actually had Atisogbe at one point

58:53Alex Lowe: because I think as a newcomer to the team, he was awesome against Ireland and he just looks so comfortable at this level already. I was really impressed with him. Balakun and Steyn would be the two. I'd probably go Balakun in the end, but I'm happy with Steyn. Oh, okay.

59:08Alfie Reynolds: I can't be over with Steyn. It's all right.

59:10Will Kelleher: So we're going Steyn or Balakun? Steyn, I'm happy with Steyn.

59:12Alfie Reynolds: What do you think, Alfie? Come on.

59:13Will Kelleher: We're empowering you to speak up. We'll go, well, you know, I'm just kind of here. If I have to get involved, I will. We want you involved. I would go with, I'd probably go Balakun, but that's going to make it a draw. No, that's fine.

59:25Alfie Reynolds: Go Balakun then.

59:26Will Kelleher: we're happy that there's a lot of silence that's fine fullback Tom Aramos Ramos yeah has to be Tom Aramos

59:34Alfie Reynolds: but not just for the clutch kicking no he's been but that too

59:37Will Kelleher: yeah yeah final question then for you as we leave you here in the Paris sunshine 2026 Six Nations where does it rank in terms of the championships that you have covered incredible ending unexpected results and great storylines every single week where does it rank for all of you

59:54Charlie Morgan: talking to a father of two kids is under five with porridge brain who has terrible short-term memory so yes hi i think yeah i think it was great for a for a point again to steal off alex everybody got punched in the face everybody had to show a bit of resilience and adversity everybody by the end including england showed showed variety about how they played and we aren't it's boring to talk about world cup cycles but to talk about world cup cycles it sets us up brilliantly for an 18 month race into 2027 in

1:00:26Alfie Reynolds: oz so why not i do think the six nations is now as hard as hard to win as it has been for a long time if ever if we're just talking the six nations as in since 2000 because italy can beat england scotland probably could have won other games could have beaten ireland couldn't they we'll be disappointed with wales so therefore the as we've talked about on the pod before the floor has come up which means that it's harder the grand slam is really tough to win really really tough to win which is exactly how it should be France was supreme for three games and didn't win the slam because they conceded 96 points and it's again a refrain I've come back to quite a lot but I can't have it that rugby was better before the quality of play on the field in the current era is way better than anything we have ever seen in the sport and i will that is my full point on the six nations alex yeah i just echo that i i think i can't think

1:01:28Alex Lowe: of a championship where every weekend there's been a twist or a statement performance where teams have been knocked and challenged and responded it has we've had talking points through this pod, like, endlessly, and that's what you want from a championship. I guess one way of looking at it is we were all asked to do our predictions pre-championship. AI beat us, by the way.

1:01:53Alfie Reynolds: They had France title.

1:01:55Alex Lowe: But week on week, what you thought was going to happen didn't happen. There was somewhere where your predictions were ripped up because sport happened, and that's what you want from a championship. That's what you want. And it felt to me sitting there last night that just reminded me why the Six Nations is arguably or definitely just the greatest thing in sport because every year it delivers in a way you hadn't expected.

1:02:20Alfie Reynolds: You've just made me think there of a marketing strapline now for the Six Nations. There's two versions. There's either sport happens or six happens. Does that work? That's a nice little neat hashtag. You'd see that sprayed on a pitch somewhere, couldn't you?

1:02:35Charlie Morgan: You could, yeah. The Six Nations, sport happens. before a couple of horses ran all over it in the pre-match. We haven't even spoken about the pre-match. I enjoyed it. Five seconds on that. So they upheld a massive flag,

1:02:45Alfie Reynolds: and Charlie and I were like, is that meant to be a silhouette of the Six Nations trophy?

1:02:49Charlie Morgan: Our colleague Nick Simon had, God knows how, heard whispers that there would be horses involved, and was teasing this over the day. And it wasn't taking too much notice of him, to be honest. I thought he was joking. And then, yeah, they ropped up.

1:03:05Alfie Reynolds: But it ended up being a representation of the channel. And then like a battle for the soul of rugby, I think. Between kids and like warriors. Big cheer for Freddie Michalak.

1:03:14Charlie Morgan: Michalak in the cardigan. I enjoyed that. And the bizarre sort of very modern day kind of sideshow of England's non-23 players sprinting up and down the pitch in the dark. And the kind of slight warrior.

1:03:29Alfie Reynolds: Who was it? Manny Jog and George Kloska doing shuttles. George Ford. Raffy Quirk. while there was the Hundred Years War going on on the pitch beside her.

1:03:37Charlie Morgan: Worrying if the fireworks were going to spook the horses. Do you know what?

1:03:40Alfie Reynolds: I almost thought Ben-Hol was going to be set on fire because he does the thing where he does a prayer. Oh, he ran through. He ran through the pit when the flames started going off. And I was like, I think he's going to catch a light. I'd like to see Mischlack in the middle get a huge ovation.

1:03:52Alex Lowe: He ripped into France last week. Did he? Yeah, he absolutely ripped into them. And then there he is. I will also take the fee.

1:03:59Alfie Reynolds: Thank you.

1:04:01Will Kelleher: well maybe it was a mad it was a mad start to what was a mad game in a mad championship and that's what how we'll probably leave it it has been uh awesome to to bring you all the pods throughout the six nations from edinburgh to rome here in paris games at twickenham it's been good fun so appreciate all of you that are listening lads what does it look like back to back to prem

1:04:21Alfie Reynolds: bath saris friday night let's have it there you go that's good game back at the wreck yeah good You see that Oli Lawrence and Henry Arundel played against Bedford last Friday and they beat them 94-14. I heard they played. I didn't know that was the score. Oli Lawrence was meant to be injured.

1:04:34Alex Lowe: That's the gap between the Premier and the Champ.

1:04:37Will Kelleher: And on that note, we're back into it. There you go. Well, we'll be back with you next Monday. So no podcast for you tomorrow on Monday. But the following Monday, we'll be back with you with domestic action. All of that stuff has been a great pleasure. Email us if you want to get in touch. the ruck at the times.co.uk Alex speak to you soon speak to you soon Charlie likewise cheers mate we're on the same flight Charlie's done his first extension for the times

1:05:01Charlie Morgan: he has yeah have done enjoyed it very much so sign off with a flight home with you mate exactly perfect perfect

1:05:06Will Kelleher: and Will you'll be at the rec see you next Monday see you at the rec appreciate all of you listening this has been the Ruck the journalist's rugby podcast from the times and the Sunday times youth mental health is a complex challenge that requires comprehensive solutions We must strengthen after-school programs.

1:05:25Charlie Morgan: We must make digital literacy tools available in our schools. We must work with mental health professionals to support children. And we must empower mentors, educators, and parents to keep kids happy. Learn more about our commitment to finding lasting solutions at empowerourfuturecoalition.com

1:05:43Will Kelleher: slash solutions. Paid for by the Coalition to Empower Our Future.