And then there were three…Is there one last Six Nations shock?

0:15Alfie: Welcome along to The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times. Last week we were in Rome, today we are in Paris. Welcome along. My name's Alfie Reynolds. Alongside me is Alex Lowe and Will Kelleher. How are you gents? feeling fresh feeling good

0:30Will: very good thank you nice couple of days in Verona

0:33Alfie: I was going to say you followed England to Verona so what was that like after their first ever defeat against Italy

0:39Alex: Verona is an exceptionally lovely place isn't it Alex yeah it's beautiful I'd love to go back there I was chatting to my partner at home and we were going like imagine doing like Milan Verona Bologna as a little sort of 10 day trip it was lovely like historic old city Shakespeare and stuff everywhere Romeo and Juliet balconies nice sunny weather and then Alex we got we did a bit of slow travel didn't we got the train from verona to milan and then milan to paris

1:04Will: over the alps through the through the alps yeah so we swapped trains unscheduled stop surrounded by uh snowy mountains it was it was actually amazing yeah and also we were we were commenting weren't

1:15Alex: we about if this had happened in the uk we'd we'd still be in swindon or something yeah or the second

1:21Will: train wouldn't have as many carriages as the one we got off and then it'd be a massive bun fight to try and get a seat.

1:26Alex: It was a remarkable efficiency, Alfie, because they had to empty our entire train and put us on the one on the other platform and then swap the people on that one to our one. And everyone just sat in the same seats as they had in the previous one. It was just so efficient and lovely.

1:39Alfie: You can imagine in the UK, as you say, A, you wouldn't even have a train with the correct number of carriages. But if you did, it would be absolute chaos running between trains.

1:46Alex: You're in my seat, mate.

1:47Alfie: Well, I'm glad that your week sounds like it's been all right. It's been all right then, because off the back of England losing to Italy for the very first time, very quickly, because we've got a lot to get into here so we'll preview the weekend we have a bucket load of emails i'm going to try and get through as many as possible thank you to all of you that have got in touch what has it been like covering england in verona speaking to the team three defeats in a row the noises outside the camp are loud and negative at the moment what's it been like being

2:12Will: sat in front of them and chatting to them well they don't think we know what we're talking about they are doubling down on the game plan they all maintain religiously that they are fully behind it despite indications that maybe they're not and any attempt to sort of suggest that they could maybe bring it in what is it that we don't get is met with a kind of a bit of disdain really and like I get it they are on the back foot, they're on the defensive, difficult position for the players to be in, but you only have to talk to other players outside of the camp who do really understand the game to know that what we see is what we think is what we see.

3:06Will: They're in a very difficult position, this England set-up now. Steve Borthwick has essentially been put on notice by the RFU. he's got four games to save his job and he was actually the least sort of combative of of anyone that we've spoken to in in camp and he acknowledged that things haven't gone right and but then he sort of rolled out the thing everything that's very obvious to us which is there are too many yellow cards and not and they can't score tries it's very difficult for him mid mid campaign to to kind of lift the bonnet on really what's going on. But there doesn't seem to be a huge amount of adaptation going on, I don't think, by England through this campaign.

3:50Alex: There's always an issue with the difference between being the man in the arena, as people often phrase it, and us guys who just watch them from afar. But I think the thing that concerns me about the stance that a lot of the England team are taking is that it doesn't matter what they think of us as the journalists who follow them around, but what they're doing is by extension telling their fans that their fans don't know what they're talking about or what they're seeing isn't the reality and I think that's quite a dangerous path to tread because these fans spend a lot of money, thousands of pounds that we've met people on our journey around Italy and France, Alex haven't we who've been popping across on the trains as well and booked tickets optimistically quite a long time ago as you have to do some have missed out on thinking I don't have a ticket for the Paris game but I don't really want one now and things like that and the fear for the England rugby team and they are a few is that it's a different version of the Welsh question that we've talked about a lot is the apathy or people who switch off or basically being told by the team that we don't really want or value your support that's that's a really tricky place to be and look I think possibly some of it will be that They're in the sort of like denial grief stage.

5:07Alex: And with a few weeks grace, they might go, do you know what? That was a bit strong. But look, they're in a tough spot. They know they're in a tough spot. I think they admit that they're failings when you give them a chance. But to sort of turn it back on you guys don't know what you're talking about, which was a bit of a refrain from Oli Chesson the other day. And what we got from Ben Earl in the mix zone on Saturday night, which I referred to on the pod after the game and then wrote about, I just think it jars a bit. Don't you, Alex?

5:36Will: It definitely jars a bit. I do feel for the players to an extent of having to try and explain what is obvious to everyone else, but without wanting to criticise their teammates to show weakness. They're circling the wagons. I can see what's happening.

5:56Will: What the listeners and readers of the Times think is what's happening to England is what's happening, There are problems in attack, there are problems with leadership. That is obvious. The players don't feel they can really acknowledge that or admit that publicly because they want to be seen to be united and I admire that. So they're in this awkward position of, they're probably given some lines to say. Whether they believe them all or not I think may emerge in the fullness of time. So it's difficult. I just always think honesty is the best policy. The RFU statement called for some honest conversations, and I'm not sure we've had too many of them.

6:38Will: I think it's also notable this week that the senior leaders, Mario Itoji will speak today because he's captain, I think he's obliged to, under tournament regs, but none of the vice captains have spoken. None of the senior coaches have spoken. Borthwick has, but the most senior coach has. Again, he's obliged to under tournament regs, but I think that's notable too. And, you know, at the point when I thought the senior figures would need to take control of the narrative and take control, be seen to be leading this team, they haven't been.

7:10Alfie: Well, let's get into the emails then, because as I've said already, we got loads of them as we expected to. The reaction off the back of Italy has been strong amongst the England fan base. Let's do the ones which are specifically about Borthwick first. Sam got in touch. I quite enjoyed actually. capitals in the subject heading of his email was emergency which I thought kind of summed it up he said this is the worst England team I've seen in over a decade despite having one of the best squads on paper hand over the reins to any top coach and we're looking strong for the Rugby World Cup 2027 immediately Simon said Will you asked for a six nations where it was just pretty decent that won't happen with Borthwick in charge I'm afraid the 12 wins in a row was a somewhat fortunate string of results that doesn't mask the fundamental shortcomings of this coaching group and Mark says surely Borthwick now has to go this England team looks so devoid of any skill flair enjoyment and this has to start from the top we cannot take away Borthwick's 12 match winning streak but he has also overseen record losses to France and Ireland and first ever losses to Fiji and Italy.

8:19Alex: I think a lot of that from our readers and listeners is true and not, some of it's maybe phrased in a quite sort of dramatic way, I suppose, but I don't think you could quibble with quite a lot of what they're saying. And this is like, I've been looking at lots of these emails and sending them onto you, Alfie, and I think this is the point. It's like quite a lot of these people are reasonable, like sort of right-thinking members of society. They're not nutters and loonies and people on social media. they're like proper England fans who care about the team a lot. And this is why I think that's an issue.

8:51Will: A lot of the emails start, I've never felt the need to sit down and write an email and get my thoughts out. But it's cathartic doing so. This is the first time ever I've felt the need to do that.

9:03Alex: So look, on the Borthwick out camp, it's a heavy amount of England fans now, I would say, and not just represented by people on X or in the Instagram comments or under the line on our website and everything like that but and that's a worry as you said Alex they've given a kind of backing to an extent with the RFU statement from Bill Sweeney the other day but actually as you wrote on Sunday for Monday's paper it looks more like an ultimatum i.e if the things if things don't turn around before well during the nation's championship so South Africa in Joburg Fiji and Everton and then Argentina away then they will make a change I think I've got a slightly adjacent point here which is we're all in rugby obsessed with getting ready for the world cup and actually england are quite good at getting ready for the world cup and i've said it i said it maybe a year ago and i said england are an average team that peaks for peak for world cups and that was in a point where they couldn't really deliver in other bits of the year and then they started delivering in other bits in the year and you think okay well then they're changing that narrative but now we're back to this position where it's another six nations in history's dustbin and everything else but the point i wanted to make about the world cup is the whole sort of like forced narrative about it being really like oh you can't possibly sack someone a year out from the world cup or months out from the world cup it's like my take is that getting to the world cup semi-final is easier than winning the six nations easier than winning a grand slam the bit right at the end of the world cup is harder because you've got to beat two of the best teams in the world and it's the world cup semi-final and the world cup final and england have got to the semi-final point fairly regularly and they've only won the final once as we know but the whole thing of oh wow you've got to have months and months and months and months of prep it's like actually quite a lot of coaches in quite a lot of world cups have proved that you kind of don't checker razzi's first go even brian ashton 07 england made the final so actually the thing that england should focus on the rfu should focus on with the appointment of whoever the coach is and whenever they do that, whether they change or otherwise, is nailing the Six Nations because they historically can't do that.

11:11Alfie: Just a couple more emails. Chris, there's loads of detail in, well, a lot of the emails actually, but there's lots of detail in Chris's email. He's also a debenture holder at Twickenham. He said in any other industry, Borthwick would be gone. What's so different about rugby? To be fair, that difference might be a positive if it reflected a long-term plan and much-needed patience. Where is that plan, though? I can't see any evidence of it whatsoever. Oliver sent us an email for the reasons for and against Borthwick. For, he said he's a talented coach with a bright future. He is a strong tactician and he rotates his coaching team.

11:47Alfie: The argument against Borthwick, he doesn't get the best out of his players. He's out of touch with the fans. He only faces hard truths when forced. He doesn't adapt. Basically, he said the verdict was the arguments against far overwhelm the arguments for. And then maybe one final one on this and Borthwick's position. Greg, who it was a two-parter, I read out the first part of it on Monday's podcast. The second part of that was, does the sacking of Scott Robertson impact the RFU decision on Borthwick? And actually, if I can throw David's email in there as well, he said, why hasn't there been more clamour for Andy Farrell for the England job?

12:21Alfie: Which I think I can't see Farrell joining England before the World Cup. But to those points, to Robertson, to that whole sort of thing, Alex?

12:28Will: Well, on Robertson, he's got an exit clause in his deal with the All Blacks. So he can't take over a rival nation until the All Blacks have played that nation. So he essentially couldn't become England head coach until next year's Six Nations. Andy Farrell isn't going to become England coach before the World Cup. Let's just fast forward to a point where we think this road would end for Borthwick in the summer. What do the RFU do? Now, this is definitely a conversation further down the line. But for me, the priority for the RFU has to be to try and secure Andy Farrell post-2027. He's, you know, Borthwick would have done, even if England win the World Cup, Borthwick would have done five years, but by then two campaigns, history suggests that's the right time to make a change regardless.

13:19Will: If in the summer the RFU choose to change the England head coach, for me all they can really do is find an interim who will do it for a year do it through to the world cup because it would be a bit sort of sean edwards like that england would then get themselves in a situation where they can't try and recruit andy farrell because they've had to make a change a year out and they've given someone a five-year deal and therefore they've sort of missed out again on on that opportunity they've they've tried to bring andy farrell back twice since he was since he left in 2016 on the first occasion he was definitely prepared to come back because he was still assistant coach with Ireland and he wanted some assurances from the RFU that he'd come back and then succeed Eddie Jones after 2019 those assurances weren't given whereas in Ireland he had that situation lined up with Ireland and so he didn't come back so therefore you're looking who's the kind of interim and it's a kind of a checker situation, a Gatland situation, I would say.

14:20Will: This is a conversation for down the line, but that's just to address those two points. I would say that Farrell has to be absolutely top of the list for post-27. Robertson isn't available until next year's Six Nations.

14:34Alfie: But we can't see any world in which Andy Farrell is leaving Ireland before the World Cup is. That's just not going to happen.

14:39Alex: And actually, add to that, is it better for Andy Farrell, unless the World Cup goes dreadfully, to stay with Ireland in a position where he's in full control of what's going on there and then coaches the Lions in 29 again in New Zealand? Yeah, potentially. Where if you were the England coach, England are probably a bit like, well, we need you to concentrate on getting the England team good. A bit like Borthwick was, so therefore don't be a candidate for 29. And Andy Farrell goes, well, hang on, I wanted to complete the set and all that. There's a whole Saracens question too.

15:08Will: Might he choose to step back from Test Rugby, do Saracens and the Lions? that's perfectly feasible as well. I do think the control element in England is a turn-off for coaches.

15:21Alex: Despite, actually, the head coach now having more control than they've ever had.

15:24Will: But it's no way comparable to New Zealand or Ireland, say, or South Africa. Razzie's in full control of the Springboks players, even those who play in Japan, full control. So that will make it harder, I would say, for the RFU to convince certain coaches to come because the system in England just isn't as... Not everything is geared up for the national team.

15:46Alfie: OK, also thank you to Thomas, William and Charlotte who all sent us brilliant emails as well. Charlotte included questions like, what expertise did the RFU actually bring in terms of the decision to appoint Forthwick, the accountability, and it got on to the structural issues of player availability. The other kind of big thing or themes maybe from a lot of the emails we got was about the game plan big big discussion at the moment about how england are playing so emma who put pen to paper for the first time i do feel like we are the kind of agony aunts in a way for a lot of england fans to just get their get their feelings or you're welcome everyone that's our role but emma got in touch and said how can steve borthwick not see that the game plan of kick and chase is a 50 50 left up to the odds plan which is counterintuitive to his reported methodical approach glenn said look at almost all sport these days a conservative game plan which england have will not win tournaments the game has moved on teams take chances they may lose a few but in aggregate it will be a winning strategy and then william said this england is not a serious team but that's nothing new they're playing more or less to their mean throughout borthwick's tenure and william had also detailed a lot of their results and the stats between between 22 entries and all that sort of stuff as well gents game plan so two of the players we

17:08Alex: spoke to earlier this week made it very clear that the game plan will not and does not need to change and they were ben spencer and tom roebuck and i guess there's multiple things that you can spin off from that conversation the first bit is probably the most cynical take is that of course ben spencer and tom roebuck the box kicking nine and the wing who's usually very good in the air are going to say, happy days, keep this game plan because it gets me in the team. The second element to it, and I've been spending some time speaking to some well-respected head coaches who are outside of the England camp at the moment, is that England couldn't have changed the game plan or ripped it up, as lots of fans would have liked them to, after the Italy defeat to the France game.

17:49Alex: Because there's just no time. They had basically two training sessions before they're coming to Paris on Thursday. so in terms of personnel and style they can't just throw the baby out with the bathwater so they sort of have to double down was the view of lots of these coaches but the third thing is an interesting thing which is there's two bits I guess because the England team have shown that they're not very adaptable on the fly and I think that's now true of the coaches in the tournament as well it seems to me that Steve Borthwick is a very campaign to campaign coach there's a strategy for the campaign and then he can change it between campaigns but maybe not during it they've tried to throw the baby out of the battle to a bit haven't they in other six nations tournaments and it's kind of half works where they had that big 2024 summit in york and said right we're going to attack and it kind of worked for a bit and then kind of faded off the second bit i think here is that the players or coaches that say well it worked last year is true but the game moves so quickly it sort of doesn't matter if it worked last year isn't the point that you want to be ahead of what's going to work next year and do that where someone like Razzi Erasmus would be not interested in what worked last year but what's going to work next year so therefore building something this year so there's a danger there that you get stuck in a game plan that everyone has moved along from and it reminded me we were talking about this during the game in the Italy match, Alex, weren't we, up in the Stadio Olimpico of when England cricket team went to the 2015 World Cup and got bombed out on the group stage and their coach Peter Moores at the time was very data driven and he would say things like, the stats show that if you get 2-6-5 you've got 68 % chance of winning a 50 over game, keep wickets in hand for the end of the game and like the West Indies in New Zealand were just getting 400 so the stats were like based off stuff that had happened before whereas someone just came in and changed the game Brendan McCollum and Chris Gale and players like that were just changing the game completely overnight and England were left way behind so on the kick chase thing particularly those escorting laws have been different for one year pretty much so it's actually quite a small data set and at the beginning of that data set people didn't really know how to do it and then worked it out the other interesting bit with it is that England's catching of high balls has actually got better but the thing they got worse at is scoring tries when they get the ball so they're now scoring at 1.5 points per entry which is the fifth best in this six nations only better than italy but they're getting into the 22 the second most amount of times just short of france 12 entries per match so it's the finishing that's the issue maybe not the dialing up of the kicking plan based on everything

20:36Will: that we've seen the six nations the game in here in paris on saturday will be a huge contrast in style and attitude. So England haven't always kicked the most in their games through this championship. And one of the things that Steve Balfour said to us on Tuesday when he was asked about the game plan was, well, it would look very different if we had scored more points, scored more tries, which is true. Because if kicking leads to attacks, which leads to tries, then suddenly it feels that people have a different view of it. It looks much more dynamic, much more full of intent. The fact that England are getting down there, getting down there, and then conceding turnovers, dropping the ball, being penalised, whatever it might be, missing touch, all the things that have undone England in the red zone, gives some truth to what Steve Borthwick is saying.

21:26Will: But England's inability to... It's not inability, because the players can do it, but they haven't been playing with their heads up. They haven't been playing with their eye... They're not seeing a wide screen in front of them. because they're almost not being required to or asked to. Now, where France play the game, the way they play the game, is to keep it alive. So their transition play is devastating.

21:52Alex: In IMAX Panorama. It is. To use your metaphor, stretch it even further.

21:57Will: They have scored so many tries from kick receipts, from transition, from turnovers. They are devastating.

22:06Will: Sorry, the motorbike sidecars just got... We've got everything going on here, haven't we?

22:11Alex: Shall we quickly describe where we are? So we're sitting in the Odeon area of Paris, near Saint-Germain, and the Jardin de Luxembourg and stuff like that, and we've just had a retro tour motorbike trio come past us with side cars, and they're beeping away, so that's what you can hear in the background.

22:25Will: So the French attitude, the way they play the rugby, is the opposite to England. England are almost playing for rucks, playing for the next phase, playing to kick, to regather, to then attack further down the field. France don't play that sort of structure. they don't play for rucks they play for transition they'll kick a lot they'll kick a lot but they will punish teams in transition they have done all six nations they want to keep the ball alive you've seen it with Bordeaux you see it with Toulouse they don't mind a scruffy offload out the back because they'd rather that than die with the ball and it's so opposite to the way England play and very quickly Alfie just on Emma's email I think as you said she hasn't put pen to paper not really, you know what I mean she hasn't felt the need to put her thoughts down before but Emma is the niece of Steve Bale who was a much missed colleague of ours in rugby writing circles I knew him first when he was at the Daily Express, latterly at the Sunday Times and so I just want to particularly thank Emma for her email because Steve was very fondly regarded by everyone in in the rugby media and and is much missed so thank you to emma

23:42Alfie: absolutely good stuff lee blackett the question of lee blackett this is okay i think we've probably got borthwick was maybe the main theme the game plan was second lee blackett came up time and time again seb goes apologies for charging in off the long run but hope everyone is licking the wounds after another dismal england display would it be possible to discuss lee blackett's role with England this week on the pod this is one of England's most revered attacking coaches with a proven track record I cannot understand what he is being employed by England to do Jonathan who was a Bath fan posed lots of questions one of them being that he didn't think Lee Blackett was being allowed to bring his nous to England and Simon asked where was the attack coach in the box this was something that people picked up on TV why was he nowhere near Borthwick Lee Blackett discuss we

24:30Alex: We haven't seen a lot of Lee Blackett and we haven't seen a lot of what Lee Blackett can deliver as an attack coach, which is obviously exceptionally good because he was the head coach of a very good Wasps team and was the attack coach before that under Di Young and helped Bath win the Prem title by being empowered to help their game plan with Joanne van Graan. Not seen it here. There's lots and lots and lots of things like there is with all of these questions. One thing is that England have quite a big backroom team and quite a lot of them slash most of them are defence coaches by trade. So if what we're told is that each coach gets their kind of section of the week where they get to talk through what their plan is.

25:13Alex: So if you imagine that Kevin Sinford has his go, Richard Wigglesworth has his go, Joe Elab has his go, Byron McGuigan has his go, they're all defence coaches. And then Lee Blackett has his go and you get 10 minutes of attack when you've just had 40 minutes of defence. so in that sense it seems like the messages we're getting from people who know what they're talking about is that there is less of a focus on attack the second bit of it is that when steve borthwick talked to us on monday alex the thing he was most critical of was the profligacy and attack which you could read one of two ways you could say like well it would all be fine if we could just score tries and we're trying to solve it or it's him going what's lee blackett doing i've employed this bloke to coach attack which is an area of the game that's not my strong point and it's not working so what's he doing well it's interesting reading so go back to the very start

26:02Will: of this pod where we talked about how there's sort of a certain view among the england players that we the journalists don't really understand what we're watching um courtney law's understands what he's watching he's played for england 105 times and if you read his column in the in the times he will say or he does say that the more the pressures come on the more risk averse that england have become the the more controlled almost that that game plan has has become and there's plenty of screenshots out there available of situations where england should have passed and should have moved the ball which steve borthwick keeps saying every week i want my players to be to play brave to play big, to move the ball.

26:48Will: It's why they brought Daly and Atkinson into the team to try and move the ball. And yet every time they had a chance to move it, they tried to stick an angled grubber kick through into the corner against Italy. So there was a huge disconnect between what they're saying they want to do and what they're actually doing. And I don't see Lee Blackett's imprint on the team the way they're currently playing. Now, Oli Chesham and the others might say, well, you don't know what you're looking at. But if other professional players also don't see it, then I think I'm probably on the right lines.

27:20Alex: One thing I was speaking to a coach about this week was what Bath were like when Lee Blackett was in charge of their attack. And it was really fascinating because it's something that I genuinely haven't noticed, that maybe only top-end analysts and coaches would. that the Barre style was to play slow, slow, slow, slow, slow, slow kick-off, slow set-pieces, slow scrums, almost lure you into a false sense of security that it's a low-key game. And then bang, bang, bang, high tempo in the 22. And they almost shock you with their going up of the gears. And that's what this coach was saying to me, was what he thinks England have been trying to implement.

28:01Alex: But when they do that, they're just dropping the ball. And I wonder whether some of that is connected to what we've talked about before, which is this kind of kick-first mentality where quite a lot of people whose natural instinct in that team, like Finn Smith, for example, would be to look for space and find holes. They're going, but I should kick. We've been told all week to pressurise Pani in the backfield, for example, in the Italy game, or this weekend, Ramos, let's say. So I should kick to that corner, but it's against their natural instincts. So it feels like they're being pulled one way by their instinct, another way by the game plan.

28:36Will: It felt to me there were three occasions in the Italy game where England players reacted to the situation and trusted their skills. And the two of them scored a try. And the third was that desperation attack in the last minute, which was ended by what looked to everyone like a side entry. But the penalty went to Italy. Is that when Chesson went through Gallup? Chesson went through. Van Portfleet round the ball a couple of times. only Spencer ran it once in the game it felt like they just went off the script because they had to because the urgency of the situation, which I guess was then undermined by the fact that they didn't compete at that last line out, which was bonkers like I said these players have the skills, you see it in the prem all the time, they're highly skilled players you can read a game but they're not they're playing a narrow, formulaic style of rugby and Balthwick's point is well if we just score at the end of all of these 22 entries then then it'll look better but if you're not if you're not scoring and that's become a pattern of not scoring and I think as we've discussed previously when you're in the 22 it's harder to score because they've got 15 players on the on the goal line France are stinging teams from a long way out where there's more space to

29:55Alfie: exploit I'll say it again thank you so much to all of you that emailed apologies to those of you that took the time we haven't been able to get to them the email address is the ruck at the times.co.uk so if anyone would like to send us an email then that is how you get in touch we'll have a quick break final question on england though the theory by the way i'm really enjoying that we've decided to do the pod and alex you did flag this to me beforehand actually that there's people taking down some scaffolding i think across the road um we wondered what england would do in terms of team selection borthwick was loyal scotland into ireland wholesale changes for italy just the one change Oli Chessom coming into the back row at six for France on the weekend.

30:34Alfie: What do you read into that team selection?

30:36Alex: So Oli Chessom coming in at six is sort of a two-parter. It's to add heft, which is a phrase we've used quite a few times during this tournament and maybe a lack of heft with England and also solve the line out. And Chessom was one of those guys who talked about the lack of physical intensity against Ireland and then was one of the people who was dropped for the Italy game and was pretty disappointed and did all right off the bench so he comes in at six somewhere he doesn't play that often anymore for tigers and the fascinating bit of it is that fabien geltier has gone hold my pression and gone how about adding heft 23 stone manny mayafu comes into the second row which is probably one of the biggest locks in the game alongside someone like will skelton so he's come in with thibaut flamand into the second row charles olivon's gone to eight because anthony gelanch has got a hamstring injury and they flipped around the centres with Barassi and Moafana now playing there too.

31:32Alex: So a few changes with France. They've also got debutant at seven, Mathieu. But, I mean, their team on paper looks dangerous. And the one thing I'm excited to see, it feels like it's surely going to happen, is Biel Barre to score his 10th Six Nations try in 10 Six Nations games. And that is ridiculous. He scored all five in five last time. and he's going to do it again this year. And before last season, no one had ever done it and he's going to do it two tournaments in a row. Freedman did it as well last year, didn't he?

32:03Alfie: Yeah, well, it'd be extraordinary. We'll leave it on England for there. We'll have a quick break and the other side of this, we'll look ahead to all the other action coming up this weekend and who is going to end up lifting that trophy. Okay, so France-England, final game of Super Saturday, which we should very quickly say, Will, that France are going to be playing in the nicest kit of all time.

32:25Alex: What a kit it is. The light blue 120-year crunch Adidas kit. It's unbelievable, isn't it, Alex? Here's a question for our readers, listeners and us here. Who do you think is going to look the sharpest in the cool kit? I'm going to say a bit of Charles Ollivant. He looks like a Roman god anyway and then wearing the light blue.

32:48Will: I think Jalbert, I reckon, will look flat. they're all gonna look good aren't they the thing is France always have the coolest kit

32:56Alex: they do yeah Argentina I give them a run for their money I'd say the classic hoops is lovely

33:02Will: so like England how do you change a white kit you sort of tweak with bits of red here and there I feel like they under club the red I think the England kits in recent times have been pretty average whereas every time they tweak the France kit because what do you do with like dark blue but they just they just there's a style to it anyway this I mean I'm not sure when 120 years became a thing but I'm glad it has because if we get the kit no one cares yeah and everyone like it is it's sold out in a flash yeah it is yeah it's pretty it's pretty swish I like it

33:35Alfie: yeah so keep your eye out for that Super Saturday then Ireland Scotland then Wales Italy before as I say that France England game rounds things off Ireland Scotland what a day of rugby

33:46Alex: it's going to be So let's pick ourselves up because I think it was right to do a lot of a deep dive on England because all of our readers and listeners are just desperate for answers. So hopefully we tried to answer them. But let's remove ourselves from the sort of England lens a bit and just go, great Saturday incoming, isn't it? Like three teams capable of winning the title. Obviously, most likely that one of them is going to do it, France, and the other two are having to hang on. Scotland might pull off an amazing result and still not win the title. but great set of fixes isn't it and Italy Wales has got great intrigue over it as well doesn't it, can Wales win their first game for two tournaments, three tournaments which is mad when you think about that as much as Italy have been good

34:28Will: you go through the teams and Italy have had a really encouraging tournament to start with a wing against Scotland to beat England, Wales haven't won yet but the mood around the national team the mood around Welsh rugby is still negative and it's the basket case it's in crisis but the the national team the sense of optimism has grown because i think you're you didn't want to talk about england but there is a the way that wales have reacted and they're playing for one another and they're playing for the coaches and the the principality was was jumping for the for the scotland game and there's

35:05Alex: just a sense of positivity around the sort of dog and heart and fight against ireland didn't they and they tackled their hearts out. They defended like dogs, didn't they? And then Carré goes and scores one of the most amazing big man tries at the moment of the championship. That just lifts the mood.

35:20Will: 240 tackles, Alex Mann led the way. It's just ridiculous. Like 35 or whatever it was. It's close to record numbers. That's fight. That's what we talk about. When other things aren't working, how much do you just want to do it for the guy next to you? And Wales is showing all of that. And that's what people can connect to that. And I think that's what's happening in Wales. I guess there was always such a huge pressure on the national team. When Gatlin was there, we often talked about it. It kind of papered over the cracks underneath it. It's not on these young players to overhaul the whole of Welsh rugby, but they're doing a hell of a job in just reframing things that side of the bridge.

36:01Will: I'm really excited for that game because there's a chance for Wales, definitely. There's also a chance for Italy to finish this champ with three. wins which would be awesome for them and so well deserved um and that just tees up the rest of the

36:17Alex: of super saturday as we said the other days like uh it's what do we call what would be an italian triple crown i know they get to play four of the home nations we call it like the tricolore or something they get i work on that england scotland what you don't you don't like my italian accent no no i've been working on that all week grazie mille no no i didn't mind that i didn't mind i'm slightly better at french but not good enough wouldn't theirs be the celtic nations because

36:40Will: they're the ones they play against in the URC. What's the Neapolitan? The Neapolitan ice cream, isn't it?

36:47Alex: The three colours. I don't know who's playing in pink. Who's playing in pink? Is it pink? Is that what it is? It's not the one where it's like pink. It's chocolate, strawberry and vanilla, isn't it? Pink would be Wales. Come on. White is England, the vanilla. And what's the other one? Chocolate, brown, Scotland. There you go.

37:01Alfie: Well, maybe the colours don't necessarily reflect the team, but I quite like the ice cream analogy. There aren't enough trophies in the Six Nations.

37:05Alex: We don't have one for Italy being all three out of the four teams.

37:10Alfie: I like the name of that more than the true calore. In terms of... So rude. Ireland, Scotland. I asked Elgin and Charlie this on Monday's pod, and we were speaking about it. What's the balance in your mind at the moment between Ireland and the 11 years, the recent history against Scotland? 11 tests in a row, isn't it? Sorry, 11 tests in a row, the recent history against Scotland, but Ireland, with the exception of that performance at Twickenham, where they were very, very good, have kind of had a mixed championship in terms of performances compared with Scotland, who have produced perhaps their greatest ever performance in beating France, an excellent performance in beating England.

37:49Alfie: Where do you see the balance of power of this game in Dublin?

37:53Will: Well, I'm not 100 % sure, which is exactly where you want it to be.

37:57Alex: First time we've said that for a while in this section.

37:59Will: I just think Scotland have got a spirit in them. They've unlocked something.

38:06Alfie: losing it in Rome has unlocked something in that team which is so impressive that that this has happened off the back of that you would have thought that defeat would have been the thing

38:15Will: that their whole six nations crumbled I still find it hard to predict Scotland winning in in Dublin I think they've lost both second rows which really doesn't help them um so I would I would expect Ireland to win because although Ireland have not hit the heights other than than against England they just sort of have ground it out and and I think I think Andy Farrell is is also So, you know, he's a master at getting his players in the right place. And we've talked about his influence with Ireland over the next 18 months through to the World Cup and how important he'll be in getting those players to perform above the sum of their parts.

38:49Will: So I find it hard to back against Ireland, but I would be more confident for Scotland going into this trip to Dublin than I would have been in a long time. Because although they're missing both second rows, which is savage for them, in a game of this size but sometimes when you're slotting players into into something that's working that's thundering down the tracks you just jump on board and you can you don't lose too much

39:18Alfie: isn't it great though that you're saying that because I think if you step back and in the cold light of day you look at these two teams then it should be Scotland easily in terms of I think they have played by far the better rugby I think they've got the momentum way more as well I know Ireland lost on the opening weekend and have won since but it was a bit of an underwhelming performance against Italy yes as I've just said very good against England but our context of where England are at the moment against Wales you might say as well well exactly so for so many reasons I think it should be Scotland but as you say Alex history matters you just don't know you just don't know

39:49Will: this this championship I mean on if you take this championship not history but this then Scotland win because that's what this championship has thrown up every round there's been something and I don't see England winning in Paris. So for the story of the 2026 Six Nations, Scotland winning in Dublin, don't they? That's just the way that it's been.

40:11Alex: Sorry, just imagine if you had predicted that Scotland would win the Six Nations after round one.

40:17Alfie: And also that they're then cheering on England to try and do the job on France.

40:21Alex: So should we do some perms? Go on. Some permutations. So for Scotland, because we're talking about them, they need a win against Ireland with one more bonus point than France against England and is that the most likely scenario if they are to win it that's how it's going to happen isn't it that they get a five pointer in Dublin which sounds mad but the way they play if they're going to win they're likely to score four tries aren't they and then England sort of have an honourable defeat and don't allow

40:51Will: to concede four tries to France

40:53Alex: but if Scotland are to win the title that's probably the way it will happen or here's a second perm for them if both France and Scotland get the same bonus points i.e. a five point win both of them or a four point win both of them Scotland will need to overcome a 58 points difference deficit to win the championship okay so that's not happening is it if you're on to France it's very simple any victory wins in the championship a draw wins in the championship if they get one more bonus point than Ireland or Ireland beat Scotland by 63 points not going to happen a loss with two bonus points wins in the championship if Ireland don't get a try bonus point unless Ireland can overcome a 63 points points difference deficit

41:34Will: I think there's so there is a scenario here where Ireland beat Scotland France either draw with England or lose to England with two bonus points losing bonus and a four try bonus France win the title with three victories and Ireland finish second with four victories, which has never happened before in the Six Nations. Nonsense and bonus points. It's unlikely to happen because I don't see France drawing with England or losing in a high-scoring shootout with England

42:06Alex: because that's not how England play.

42:09Will: But it is possible.

42:11Alfie: This has been a Six Nations of expect the unexpected, isn't it? Is there anything on Super Saturday that you think we're going to get another twist, whether that's Wales beating Italy, whether it's England producing something against France that surprises us. Would we say that Wales winning and Scotland winning, that would be double twisty, wouldn't it? But it's funny though, again, to go back to the Ireland-Scotland thing, is, I don't know, I feel like if you're basing it just upon this championship, the twist, the unexpected thing, you could make the argument, is Ireland winning?

42:43Alex: It's Ireland at home, they don't lose very often at home, do they? I know, I know. Especially in the Six Nations, like France have beaten them at home, but hardly anyone else.

42:49Will: Well, the huge twist is England winning. Yeah, that's the sort of... Like a week ago, you could see Italy winning against England. And I had to do it in the paper, I had to do my prediction, and I did, in the blurb under it, I was like, it's easier to make a case here for Italy winning, but I'm just not sure that England can sink low enough for that to happen. And funnily enough, they did.

43:13Alfie: You were starting to doubt that, though, on Friday night in Rome when we were sat together at dinner.

43:18Will: Yeah. And I just can't see England winning. I don't see how England win. So therefore, that would be the biggest shock of all.

43:26Alfie: Look, the context is very different here. Having a home game against Ireland is totally different to being in Paris on Super Saturday as France are going for the title and everything that's happening this weekend. But I do keep thinking back to Ireland at Twickenham a couple of years ago. And we were all saying heading into that game, that was Ireland when they were, you know, close to absolutely no chance. And they somehow produced something. As I said, I think the fact they're away, I think the fact that it's night-time Paris, France going for the title, there's too many things. I can't make that case for England, but that is what I can think about.

43:56Will: I know, Will, we did want to talk about England in this bit, but if you break it down to take the occasion out of it and take what's on the line out of it and just look at what areas in this game are England going to win against France. The evidence in front of us. It's really hard to see where they prevail enough. They should be better in the line-out this week. they should be better at the breakdown two key areas have gone wrong for them this champ, that might give them more of a foothold in the game but it's really hard to see so therefore the biggest shock of all would be that the Ireland-Scotland game is just it's such a ripper mid-afternoon game, can't quite call which way it's going to go, whoever wins that game will be top of the table and it'll be over to France, can you haul us in, it's wicked.

44:42Alex: I guess the flip with England and we've said this for three weeks, is that if they don't drag it into the mud and don't fight and scrap and make it difficult for France, then that's yet another worrying sign, isn't it? If they lie down and take a battering, Bill Sweeney might have to have another statement on Sunday.

44:57Will: Courtney Laws' point is don't bother doing that. Go and throw some punches. Metaphorical. Yeah, well, there's so many cameras now you can't get away with it. But look at Scotland against France. They went in and played their game. Now, their game is wide, is fast, it's Finn Russell putting the strings. That isn't a moment in England's natural game. But it showed that if you take the game to France and don't be too scared about being picked off the other way, you can win. I just don't think England will be too scared of being picked off and actually may end up, in that sense, playing into France's hands by kicking at them and then being picked off anyway.

45:41Will: which so to Courtney's point just go and throw some punches and see where you get could be fun

45:49Alfie: going to be a great day round us off who wins France the title the title and the game

45:55Alex: Le Bleu

45:56Alfie: yeah title France France title who wins Ireland-Scotland

46:01Will: I'll go Scotland I'll go Scotland

46:04Alfie: okay just to be different I'll go Ireland and Wales first win in a long time or Italy three wins in a Six Nations campaign

46:10Alex: So it's in Cardiff. I'm going to go... Italy still, just.

46:17Will: I think I'd still go Italy. And I'd remember Italy winning in Cardiff and everyone was like, Italy won in Cardiff. And now you're like, actually, I think they will win in Cardiff.

46:26Alex: But you know what?

46:26Will: We were here.

46:27Alex: Yeah, we were. It was 2022. England taking on France. And England were out of the tournament. And round the corner, some of us were staying in a hotel. We were watching the end of that game in the hotel lobby where Padovani went in and all that went mental.

46:43Alfie: So next pod for you is going to be Sunday evening, we're hoping for, because the kick-off time here in France is so late on Saturday. I mean, we're not going to be finishing until around midnight, so it won't be a kind of Saturday night pod for you, but we will pod Sunday morning. It'll be up Sunday evening and that'll be our full Six Nations debrief. What are the storylines we're going to be reporting on? Look forward to it. What should we do?

47:03Alex: Some awards? Not for ourselves, but for players of the tournament and things like that. Should we pick a combined team in the tournament? Depends. Do we have fun?

47:11Alfie: Do we... I mean, we can discuss.

47:15Alex: Trigger some more people before we just finish off the Six Nations and talk about Prem Rugby next week.

47:20Alfie: Well, we'll have loads to unpick anyway. The champions...

47:23Alex: Simone Ferrari, if you're arguing against him, we're going to have a fight.

47:26Alfie: Me and Will Collier. Right, we will see you Sunday evening, end of the Six Nations. If you want to send us an email, the email address is theruckatthetimes.co.uk. Thank you very much for listening. ActiveCampaign is the marketing automation platform built for big swings and big dreams. Generate ideas in seconds. Import your brand and create full campaigns with simple prompts. Get started for free at ActiveCampaign.com.