Are one sided score lines an issue at the World Cup? When will LRZ return for Wales?

0:15Alfie: Welcome back to The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times. I'm Alfie Reynolds and joined once again by Elgan Alderman following the opening round of the Women's Rugby World Cup. big build up ahead of this one the tournament is finally here and Elgin we are underway how was the last week or so for you because you were up in Durham covering all things England USA ahead of

0:38Elgan: that opening night last Friday it was a bit of a slow build in the days before the opening match and the Red Roses said as much both both John Mitchell Zoe Oldcroft Megan Jones all talking about the snails pace of the week the itching to stop training against each other and finally get a match underway and hopefully now that the games are underway it will will track along a bit faster yeah I mean interesting week everyone always talking about these forecasts of what this World Cup would do for women's sports talk about the attendance we might have in Sunderland at the Stadium Light and now we've got something tangible to look at as well for the progress of the game

1:14Alfie: yeah absolutely so we'll start off on the the Women's Rugby World Cup chat about England the the kind of so-called big four and who's looking best placed to challenge them and some of the one-sided matches as well. We've also got a chat coming up with Lewis Rees-Zamit. I went to the Bristol Bears training centre last week to have a chat with him following his return from the NFL and we'll round up matters in the rugby championship as well. But Elgin, if we can start on Friday night, a record crowd for a Women's World Cup, 42 ,000, over 42 ,000 at the Stadium of Light. and as expected, an England victory, pretty one-sided England victory as well.

1:52Alfie: What did you make of the Red Roses' performance?

1:55Elgan: There were areas to improve on, of course. They started perhaps a bit nervily. They failed to gather the first three restarts in the match. And obviously, as a team that score a lot of tries, they have a lot of opportunities to practice restarts. That was probably the main area where they were clearly not operating at their best. But generally, they had far too much in their attacking shape. Megan Jones and Zoe Harrison able to get outside Alona Mar at outside centre channel for the USA and in the end a 69-7 win was in keeping with the expectations we had so there will always be things that they can improve on that were far from perfect but in terms of the outcome it was it was exactly as everyone expected.

2:37Alfie: As we have so often Elgin when we're reviewing Red Rose's performances which are often quite one-sided victories it becomes quite difficult to look at individuals and individual performances but someone that absolutely stood out to me was Meg Jones I thought she was exceptional her ball carrying she had the cross field kick in the first half that's ended up setting up one of the tries as well in particular that centre partnership for England it looks to me is in a really strong place at the moment in particular because of Meg

3:06Elgan: Jones and how well she's playing yeah Meg had been asked in the week about the potential matchup with Ilona Ma. Obviously, there's so much focus on Ma given her social media profile. Megan Jones, she's listed as 5 '5", 10 stone, 8. Ilona Ma, 5 '10", 14 stone, something or other. But it was Meg Jones really throwing it around. I mean, she sent Lottie Sharp driving backwards in one huge tackle. She sat down Georgie Paris Redding, the US flanker, and that actually ended Georgie's game in the opening quarter with a huge bosh. Like you say, the cross field kick for one of the tries. She was everywhere.

3:43Elgan: And she even ended the game moving up to fly half after Zoe Harrison was taken off for Emily Scarrett. That's one thing that's been interesting this week is that John Mitchell is always talking about how the Red Roses have to be ready to deal with unfairness. So injuries, cards, things that crop up in games. There's actually a few of the people that are covering halfback all happen to be the injury worries of the past week, Helena Rowland, Claudia Maloney-McDonald and Holly Aitchison, they're all expected to be fit for the next weekend. So they're not long-term injury troubles. But it's interesting to see how Meg Jones has now morphed into perhaps the fourth choice fly half should something arise on the field in a big game.

4:22Alfie: I do wish though, Elgin, that we had seen Alona Marr versus Meg Jones a bit more within the actual game itself. I know that these things, just because you're wearing the same number and on opposite sides in rugby these days, doesn't necessarily mean that it's a one-on-one matchup in the way that we often bill it as but I was hoping we would see it a bit more Ilona Ma had that one really good carry actually leg drive got herself over the game line it felt like the whole crowd got behind that moment Meg Jones then responded because I think it was shortly after that she set up that try with that carry and cross field kick we spoke about I just wish we'd seen that one-on-one battle a little bit more

4:56Elgan: yeah that first drive is the only real instance I could remember where they properly came up against each other. Far more often we saw Ilona Ma running at first receiver in phase play for the USA, which was quite interesting given that obviously her speed and her size is the main thing that people associate with her. And yet we were seeing her fulfil that sort of secondary playmaker role as well. But after a decent first half in attack, obviously as the Red Roses took over the game, we saw less and less of Ma, as was always going to be the case when USA began to tie and lose the game.

5:28Alfie: The occasion itself though, Elgin, did it live up to the expectations? On last week's pod, you described this World Cup as starting with a bang. Was it that bang? I suppose it's a total reflection of the growth of women's rugby in England and generally speaking, that the opening crowd for this World Cup is a record at a Women's World Cup, beating the previous record from the last final in New Zealand. That's kind of the growth we've seen in the last few years.

5:52Elgan: Yeah, it just crept past that tally, I think by 144 people. We'll take it. The official tally from Eden Park. Of course, at the time, that was a world record. So this has beaten that. Since then, England's matches at Twickenham have broken that even further. So these big England occasions do draw big crowds. I mean, what was more interesting, we'll get onto these games, is what the attendances were like at the smaller games on Saturday, which even though they are significantly smaller, they are also in and of themselves often records for matches between particular teams. or if you've got Salafka facing Brazil, it's obviously always going to be quite difficult to get a decent crowd.

6:30Elgan: But even those figures are tracking up on previous tournaments, despite being much less headline-grabbing than 42 ,723. But yeah, in terms of how busy the fan zone was in the day, obviously the amount of people that turned up at the match, it was very much an off-field success taking that opening game to Sunderland. And that will be a case of smaller crowds, but still quite healthy for the state of the women's game. until we get to that Twickenham final. Whoever's there, everyone's expecting 82 ,000 people to be there.

7:01Alfie: To round us off on England then, if you look at the other game in Pool A, Australia 73, Samoa 0, brilliant performance from the Wallaroos. Do you still expect England to be fairly unchallenged in this group, Elgin, or did that performance a record for the Australian women's team at a World Cup? Did that give you any pause for thought?

7:22Elgan: Of course, the Wallaroos can improve on their recent results, but even their recent results, they lost that first test to Wales when Wales were out in Australia. They won the second one, but the fact that they lost that first one, the fact that their recent games against the United States have been quite close scorelines, I think that's a realistic marker of what their level is. So one would expect, even if Australia improve, we could still be looking at a 40-point margin, which is quite a common margin for a Red Roses win. Obviously, next Saturday at Northampton, it's England against Samoa, and England are likely to use their squad players for that game, the ones that aren't quite in the first-choice reckoning at the moment.

8:04Elgan: Even so, if Australia can win 73-0 against Samoa, then everyone will be cheering on Samoa to try and get a point even Red Roses fans I'm sure but it is looking like that game could be one where we could be talking about three figures to be

8:18Alfie: honest well we'll wait and see elsewhere I mean the big game of the past weekend Elgin beforehand was Scotland Wales wasn't it because you feel whoever wins that are in the box seat to qualify the losers are most likely going to be heading home Scotland 38 Wales a absolute statement from Scotland a brilliant performance we'll perhaps get on to the flip side of it for Wales in just a moment but following the the heartbreak of the previous World Cup for that Scotland team they will be absolutely delighted with the performance and of course the result.

8:51Elgan: Yeah Rachel Malcolm the Scotland captain said that she had Keira Bevan's penalty from three years ago just sort of imprinted on her mind that that penalty kick that won Wales the game at the last World Cup even their game in this year's Six Nations there were only three points in it it was in Edinburgh, so Scotland had that home advantage. They just scraped home. So for them to have won this by 30 points was a real statement win. I mean, they were just fast, physical, inventive. They just bullied Wales, really. And while Scotland were ruthless, Wales were toothless. That was the difference. It didn't really look like Wales had any way of getting the Scottish defence open.

9:28Elgan: They just didn't have the weapons that Scotland had, which is really disappointing because after we were talking in the build-up about how this first proper campaign under Sean Lynn, you're hoping that that coaching would bring more to bear for what Wales can offer. But sadly, they seem not only not to have moved on from the Six Nations, but actually in that performance to have gone back slightly based off what they were achieving a few months ago.

9:53Alfie: What's going on there for Wales then, Elgin? Because as I say, that's the flip side of this. Really disappointing for them. We were probably all hoping to see a bit more progress and steps forward following the Six Nations because they've had more time together. I mean, just how deflating is that for Welsh women's rugby?

10:10Elgan: Yeah, I mean, the trouble is there's only so much that coaching can do. Wales do look good at times when they are building as a team and looking cohesive and winning penalties, kicking to the corner, setting up their driving mall. And that's when they look at their best. I think the worrying thing is that you're not quite sure who can make a game-changing moment. We saw a nice break for Jasmine Joyce, a smart move down the blind side of a line-out. We saw Nell Metcalf do a brilliant chip and chase over the top that almost led to a great individual score. But the trouble is, you're just not quite sure who can step up to make that big carry, make that big break.

10:51Elgan: Whereas Scotland had a few players who could do that, not least Francesca McGee, who scored the hat-trick set to join Trail Finders this season. So a lot of fans in South of England will be seeing her talents out wide. I think that's the worrying thing. You're just not sure who can grab a game by the scruff of a neck to make something happen in that way.

11:10Alfie: And it perhaps puts it in under a spotlight. Once again, Wales's preparations, that weird trip down to Australia is a way of preparing for a World Cup that's happening in England. I mean, sometimes we overreact and perhaps are clutching at straws for these sorts of things. That still seems a little bit strange to me. So disappointment for Wales. Can we talk about the big four then in terms of the teams we think could challenge England or best place to challenge England at this World Cup? Starting off with France, 24-0 winners over Italy. But were they the least impressive of those nations of the Black Ferns and Canada and Ireland?

11:44Alfie: I think so.

11:45Elgan: And I think everyone expects them to be number four of the big four as it stands based off their recent results. Obviously, that 46 defeat in Mont-de-Marsin by England was a real eye-opener for the level they're at coming into this. Yeah, a difficult win against Italy, only scoring three tries down at Sandy Park. One might have expected a bit more. I think one thing that France fans will hold in comfort is that they've been without Pauline Bourdain-Sensou, their star scrum half, for a suspension for those two results in a row. So they'll be hoping that her return might maybe give them a bit more direction, might improve them.

12:24Elgan: And as they build into the tournament, get back to that level where they haven't beaten the Red Roses for several years, but where they can get to within a score in big matches at Twickenham, which we've seen them do the past two times they've been at Twickenham.

12:36Alfie: Well, I suppose that's the thing, isn't it? When I was thinking of this, will France have a psychological confidence more than the other sides, even though they've lost to England and they have consistently lost, they have got closer to them. And I just wonder when it comes to potentially a knockout game, potentially the pressure on this Red Roses team, whether quietly this French team might think, you know what? Yes, we've lost to them, but we have been close. Factor in the pressure of this team playing at home and needing to win it and wanting to win it and being the favourites to win it, whether they actually could be well placed because of that.

13:09Elgan: Yeah, they'll be confident, of course. But I think one thing that will slightly ramp that down a bit is that if everything goes as expected, we'd see them facing the Red Roses at Ashton Gate in a semi-final. So perhaps the fact it's not quite this big Twickenham occasion will ramp that down ever so slightly. But I mean, looking at France's games coming up, they've got Brazil and South Africa up next. So they've already beaten the main threat in Pool D, as it were. So they're almost certainly going to win the next two games fairly convincingly. Although, you know, maybe South Africa can spring a surprise and really challenge them.

13:43Elgan: But, yeah, we're expecting them still, I think, to make it through to that semifinal. And then, well, French rugby teams, they do remarkable things in World Cup semifinals. So who knows?

13:54Alfie: Yeah, who knows indeed. Also in Pulse, Ireland 42, Japan 14. I thought Ireland looked pretty good, although Japan getting a couple of scores on the board. Canada 65, Fiji 7. Something incredibly close to your heart here, Elgin. A goal-kicking lock. Sophie Degudi here, who was scoring tries, kicking goals, great all-round performance. A legend of Canadian rugby.

14:19Elgan: Absolutely. I mean, she's a totemic figure for Canadian rugby, like I say, as someone who covers the entire back five of the pack, but also throwback to the old days of John Taylor, Alan Martin, and all these great amateur forward goal kickers from men's rugby. She kicked four conversions in that win over Fiji. She's been out for almost a year with a torn ACL. So it's just great to see her back in the game and fighting the good fights for the dying art of the forward who kicks it goal.

14:49Alfie: And another part of this game, Elgin, I was laughing because I thought there'd be plenty of people that may have backed Ellie Kildun to be the top try scorer in the World Cup. And she may well be. She played really well on Friday night, picked up the player of the match award and then enter over the weekend julia shell six tries in

15:05Elgan: the game for canada not just six tries but six tries without anyone else scoring during that 21 minute period she did six in a row but all in the second half it was a yeah quite astonishing run of run of tries i think she was saying afterwards that she wasn't sure she'd she'd scored six tries before you know ever for canada let alone in let alone in one 21 minute period Yeah, it was quite something.

15:27Alfie: Do you think, though, based upon the opening weekend, that Canada, as suspected, looked the strongest of those other nations?

15:33Elgan: I think so. I mean, they've done nothing to suggest that they're not ranked number two in the world at the moment. Obviously, the intangible thing you have is what World Cups can do to New Zealand and whether that sort of bumps them up from number three to number two. But no, Canada looked good again. And there wasn't really any change in any expectations for teams after that first round. I suppose the only one would be that Scotland-Wales win, much larger margin than would have been expected.

16:03Alfie: And the final team to mention then, the Black Ferns, New Zealand 54, Spain 8 in Pool C. Can you explain to us here, Elgin, New Zealand going down to 13 in the second half?

16:15Elgan: Well, yes. I mean, if you make all your substitutions and then have a few injuries, then it's a risky run. We saw South Africa women sort of copying what the men's team do and bringing on all eight replacements at once. And when you do something like that with 30 minutes to go, no matter who you are, that's a risky run. And in this case, New Zealand had two late injuries. So we ended up with only 13 on the field for a time. Obviously, they were far enough ahead Spain. They still had too much for Spain. Spain did score a late try, thanks to that numerical disadvantage. But it's something that the coaches run the risk of when they make these changes.

16:52Elgan: And that's the sort of unfairness that when we were talking about earlier with John Mitchell, where you have situations like that, in some cases brought on by coaching decisions, making those substitutions early on. But that's why you've got to respond, react to whatever a game throws up for you.

17:09Alfie: If you're the coach there, though, you're packaging that up, aren't you? It's great preparation for later on in the tournament. If we get red cards and have to play with however many, then we've got good preparation there. I have seen quite a few people, though, saying, Elgin, particularly in the first half, I know the final score was comprehensive, which we're going to come on to now in terms of that was a bit of a theme of the weekend. I know that the final score was comprehensive. I've seen quite a few people suggest that actually New Zealand didn't look that good, particularly in the first half.

17:35Alfie: Is that fair?

17:35Elgan: Yeah, I mean, we saw England in their World Cup warm-up put 90-odd on Spain. So that's the level of where Spain were at compared to what was an experimental England team, really. So in that regard, yes, 54-8 perhaps, not as one-sided as one would have expected. But again, they've got this Japan game, they've got that big island game in the last round of the pool stages. That'll be when we can really see what they're like in a big game. And as we've seen for the entire history of this Women's Rugby World Cup, New Zealand do have a habit of finding something extra when it's required. So that'll still be the big one that will set out their store for where they are at the moment.

18:17Alfie: The one other result we haven't mentioned was South Africa 66, Brazil 6, which brings us on to the conversation of one-sided matches, Elgham. Because we've run through a number of the results there and there are some very one-sided ones. Now, I was just looking back at the Men's World Cup just as a point of reference. and games involving Uruguay, Romania, Namibia, even Italy. Remember, France absolutely hammered them at the Men's World Cup. So one-sided games happen. It's not just something that happens in this Women's World Cup. But I suppose what the Men's World Cup also does have is one-score games and more games where there is an element of jeopardy around them.

18:54Alfie: It's to be expected, isn't it, with this championship and something that I've seen you have been writing about as well?

18:59Elgan: Yeah, of course. I think at the Men's World Cup, a quarter of all pool games at the most recent tournament ended with a margin of 50 or more points. So that's what it's like in the Men's game. As I always say, one-sided games are a part of any global sporting tournament, even the Men's Football World Cup, which you'd think might be the most equitable tournament out there. Even then, you get Spain 7, Costa Rica 0, that type of thing. So one-sided results in and of themselves don't invalidate a sporting tournament. And of course, what's slightly heightened about this World Cup is because women's rugby is still at a very developmental stage where you've got teams like England who have so much professional sport again, but then also teams like Brazil who are ranked 25th in the world, who've only played 16 games of test rugby before this match.

19:48Elgan: Obviously, it's a very different state of development. And so if you've got four pools of four, then you've got that big four separated. So they're the ones that really challenge each other and they won't be meeting each other until the knockouts. Whereas at the last World Cup, when there were only 12 teams, England and France were in the same group as each other. So they ended up playing out a 13-7. I think people expected that Wales-Scotland to be a bit closer. And that was probably the one game score that we were maybe deprived of. It's just the way the formatting goes, that there's probably one game a weekend where it might be really genuinely close.

20:22Elgan: and I think next weekend that should be United States-Australia. We'll see what happens. Or games between minnows as well, throw up close scorelines. But it will be a lightning rod for criticism for people that want to criticise this tournament, say there are too many teams or whatever. But my belief is always it's better to have one too many teams at the World Cup than one too few. And seeing minnows get these opportunities, that's part of sport. And no one's pretending it's a completely positive thing, But hopefully over time, you know, next edition that will prove and the game will be more competitive than ever.

20:55Alfie: And I suppose as well, when you look at a team like Brazil, for example, that you mentioned there, there's a world in which you make this whole thing more exclusive with the hope to get more competitive games. But given that where women's rugby is and wanting to grow, it's a good thing that Brazil gets that opportunity, isn't it? It's trying to drag everyone else up. You mentioned in that piece the dangers of sporting competitions when what you do is almost close shop.

21:21Elgan: Yeah, the Men's Cricket World Cup, to use another sporting example, the last two tournaments have gone down to 10 teams when previous ones were 14 and 16. And I think those events get criticised quite a lot for being a bit too samey with the same old teams over and over again. I always think that, and maybe I'm pie in the sky in this, but I always think that seeing minnows take on big teams of the World Cup, Yes, the score is one-sided, but we want to see those teams having opportunities. Now, obviously, we want to see those teams having opportunities between World Cups, not just at World Cups.

21:55Elgan: But we see it in the men's game as well, when we say we want Georgia to be playing against the top European sides more often. They're not going to just suddenly turn up and almost beat these teams. They will have to go through a few years of losing heavily. And some teams will just always lose heavily because that's sport. I mean, Japan, prime example, 95 World Cup, they're losing 145-17 to New Zealand. Still the most one-sided World Cup result in history in terms of points scored by the opposition. And yet, you know, 20 years later, they're beating the spring box and challenging for quarterfinals.

22:30Elgan: So it can take time, but that's what happens at global sporting events. Hopefully it will improve, but I don't think it's the lightning rod that perhaps some people will suggest it is.

22:39Alfie: Yeah, good stuff. All right, we will leave it there for the Women's World Cup. Up next, let's hear from Lewis Rees-Zamit. Big news over the last couple of weeks that he is returning to Rugby Union. He has signed with Bristol Bears. And last week I went up to their training base to have a chat with him on his return to the sport. Well, Lewis, first of all, welcome back. Yeah, thank you. It's great to be back. Talk to me about why now? Why was now the right time for you to return to rugby? yeah so I've been I've been kind of thinking about it for a while I just felt like I was kind of wasting my talent over there I was kind of getting minimal reps because it's so hard to make it in

23:16Elgan: the NFL and unless you go through the college system it's even harder so yeah I just thought right now was the perfect opportunity to come back especially before the season started but yeah I've I've had a whirlwind for the past couple weeks and you know I'm just so excited to get back

23:33Alfie: What were the conversations you had out there? Was it still an option to continue on that pathway? Or as you have kind of said there, did you feel that it reached its natural end point? I mean, I definitely could have continued through pre-season and further. But I just felt like because it's a sport that you can't you can't necessarily get yourself involved. Like you're very reliant on other things happening around, whereas rugby is a completely different sport. And it's one that you can kind of get yourself involved in the game a lot more. and I can kind of use my attacking abilities within the game.

24:06So, yeah, it just felt like the right time. And, yeah, I think Bristol Bears are the perfect team for me.

24:11Alfie: How are you coming back into the sport as a different athlete? Because, as you said, such a different skill set and type of athlete, you have to be in the NFL. Yeah, it is completely different, to be honest with you. A lot of it is kind of your anaerobic fitness, short, sharp sprints, you know, plays last four to six seconds. so whereas in rugby if there's a ball in play for a long time that's no good to you uh you've got to be very fit uh you've got to be very conditioned and that's kind of what I'm focusing on now because I don't think the skills is going to be an issue you know I've I've been working you know with a rugby ball for a couple months now um you know one of my best friends Isaac Marsh he's in he's in university in Cardiff I was with him doing fitness with him every day and kind of seeing if I still had my skills um and you did yeah we'll see I'll back myself um but yeah the conditioning wise is so different and that's going to be the biggest thing for me uh but I'm yeah I'm I'm definitely going to be ready for for the first week of the year so how is the fitness it's not not too bad it's not too bad no um we're just kind of we don't want to rush too much obviously the way Bristol play is a lot of the ball in play time is huge so um you've got to be very fit so I'm kind of doing I'm doing some running on the side um until until Monday I'll be back in team training don't want to rush into things don't want to be pulling any hammies or something like that so um we're just easing myself in and yeah I'll be ready for the first game of the year and physically how are you different are you quicker or are you quicker over a shorter uh kind of distance because that's the NFL are you bigger yeah I've so I put on some muscle when I went to went to the NFL because the conditioning is a lot less so um it's a lot easier to put on weight uh but yeah I'm bigger faster stronger I'm in a great physical shape and I'm in a position now where I can I can come back and kind of show that off a little bit more especially with with the way that rugby is and that kind of free-flowing game I can I can kind of use my physical attributes more and you mentioned that it's been a crazy couple of weeks can you take us behind the scenes of that of what's been crazy how's it all gone making the decision coming out of Bristol yes it's been crazy because you know one day you're you're living in Florida and the next you've made an announcement to leave and come back to Wales come back to well I say Wales come back to wherever wherever the team was there were many leagues that we we had contact with but you know I think Bristol was the perfect fit for me and and it also allows me to live in Wales as I just mentioned yeah you mentioned as you say Bristol perfect fit for you I think there's a lot of reasons that it makes a lot of sense ball in play time you've already spoken about how important was the style of particularly I suppose the attacking rugby Bristol play to help you make that decision yeah I mean it was it was the biggest thing you know when I had that call with Pat it was he spoke about uh you know his system and how he how he likes his back three players to work and and how I would suit that that kind of that play style but yeah we we had a we had a great chat it was we had about an hour two hour and a half of just talking rugby and talking dreams and talking so many different things that you know it was the perfect place for me to be and I know they got great coaching set out great facilities and and it's one of my favorite stadiums to play on because of the track as well so you know that I like that football stadium out in the grasses allows me to run quicker and yeah I'm just I'm just very excited to get going and a one-year deal yeah one-year deal I think it would be very unfair on both parties to do any longer considering I've been out for 18 months haven't played since then they don't know how I'm going to do this year I don't know how I'm going to do this year but you know we're both very confident that I'm going to do very well so yeah we'll see what happens in the in the future but for now it's about you know getting fit and getting fit for that first game of the year and continuing that throughout the season and I can imagine the experience you've had in terms of pursuing that NFL pathway must be absolutely unbelievable but was there stuff that you missed about rugby yeah I mean as I mentioned earlier just being able to get involved as much as possible being able to get the ball in my hands as much as as much as I can to have an effect on the game and as we as we mentioned with the style of play I think this is the perfect team for me the perfect fit to allow myself to do that and hopefully I can score many tries this year and you'd have been really aware of it when you made the decision I know you'd have balanced everything out but when you're watching the Lions tour is there part of you that were looking at it thinking oh do you know what that would have been awesome to have been on that I mean it's obviously very special to play in any Lions team I was very fortunate in 2021 to go on a Lions tour.

28:35I mean, it was obviously a lot, it was a bit too late for this year's tour, considering I left 18 months ago, but I've watched rugby since I've been out there. It's something that I think I've missed more and more watching it. And it's one that I'm so excited to get back to.

28:48Alfie: The priority for you is going to be focusing on Bristol and returning to the game, but is a big kind of carrot dangling in front of you also the potential to return for your country and play for Wales again? Yeah, for sure. Obviously Wales massive for me, but ultimately I've got to play really well for Bristol to make that selection easier because we've got some very strong back three players in Wales and it's going to be tough to get in the team. So first things first is making that impression for Bristol and playing as well as I can to make that selection easier for me to join my country again.

29:21Alfie: What do you think rugby as a sport can learn from the NFL? I mean obviously their marketing and commercial side of it is absolutely huge. they show that in all the sports they do i think rugby as a sport is one of the most entertaining and exciting things you can watch and we got fans all over the world um it's just about being able to to market the game and commercialize it so that you know people want to be involved in it um a lot of that comes a lot of that comes down to the money you've got available you can learn so much from the nfl and you know you go to if you go to a game over in america you'll understand you know how excited everyone is to go watch that game but not just the game it's the things around in the stadium things they have going on at the event I think rugby can definitely learn from that but my job is it's just to play well on the field so uh yeah I I mean if they if they go look around the world and see different sports I'm sure they can they can add on to what rugby is 18 months ago when you probably left union there's a lot of uncertainty around the league we'd seen things happen post-covid with different clubs do you feel like you're coming into a stronger league that might not be something you've necessarily thought about I think I mean I've only I've only ever played in the premiership but I absolutely loved my five to six years in the premiership I thought it was unbelievable I mean it's one of the best leagues in the world and another big decision of me coming to Bristol was getting to play in that competitive league again it's something that excites me as a player to be able to play against other internationals I think the the league is at a high level of internationals and yeah when I made that decision to come here to Bristol Bears I think that was on my mind, being able to play against some really competitive teams throughout the whole year.

31:00And yeah, as I said, I'm so excited to get going.

31:03Alfie: Just finally for you, really appreciate your time. It's been a busy day of loads of interviews. You've got another one to come. Of everyone you played with in the NFL, who would make the best rugby player? Wow. Saquon Barkley. Yeah, I think just his athleticism, just the way he plays the game with such excitement and he definitely have to work on his fitness his conditioning but I think with his skill set he'd make a great rugby player give him the ball in a bit of space ball in space and yeah he's going to tower up the field well mate all the best great to have you back in the premiership and go well this season thank you very much

31:44Alfie: so great to chat to Lewis Rees-Zamit he was on good form he was having to do a lot of interviews Elgin as you would imagine I think they were trying to get all of the media requests into one day in pre-season when he can then focus on on returning to the game as we get closer to the new Prem season I asked him about playing for Wales again there how quickly do you think we see Rhys Samet back in the Wales team I know it's very hard to say at the moment because we haven't seen him play the sport yet but do you think he could be back for the November internationals I wouldn't

32:14Elgan: be surprised at all and I think as long as he plays a game or two for Bristol Bears then I I think Steve Tandy would have him in the Wales squad straight away just because of what a big name he is, what excitement he will bring to the stadium. And the Principality Stadium is really craving some excitement. Wales haven't won there for quite some time. So the entire time he's been away in NFL, Wales didn't win there. So I would expect him for on and off field reasons to have him in as early as possible, frankly.

32:44Alfie: He described himself as being bigger, faster, stronger. It's a very different type of athleticism and conditioning you need for the NFL. Would you expect him to fit back in relatively seamlessly? I still think him and Bristol is a natural match made in heaven.

33:01Elgan: Yeah, very much. Bristol are going to be working on re-acclimatising him to the different fitness demands of rugby. Obviously, for the past 18 months, he's mainly been focusing on speed and not necessarily having that fitness to go for 40, 80 minutes. But equally, I spoke to Christian Wade about this shortly after he came back from NFL when he was at Rasty 92. And his view was that, you know, I've been training with a really high caliber of athletes. So my general athleticism, fitness, speed is going to be there. I've just got to tweak it slightly. equally christian's view at the time was that obviously he hadn't actually played much contact sport for a while because when you're not playing in the nfl and they don't train huge amounts or they have limits on the amount of training they do so in his regard he was talking about how he was very fresh for that reason so we look at someone like lewis you know he hasn't really played proper consistent contact sport for for 19 months so his body should be fresh and it might be the type of thing where he ends up playing you know an extra year or so at the end of his career than you would because he's had that 18, 19 months away from contact sport.

34:07Alfie: Let's round off the pod, Elgin, with the Rugby Championship. So South Africa following their gutting defeat for them against Australia at Ellis Park the week before. They win in Cape Town 30-22 and Argentina get their first win in Argentina against the All Blacks, 29-23. This has just been blown wide open, hasn't it, after the first couple of weekends?

34:29Elgan: Yeah, it's huge. I mean, we talked about how Argentina, you just never know exactly what they're going to do. They've beaten New Zealand in Argentina for the first time ever and yet they had a period of time against 13 men where they couldn't score, but then the rest of the game they were just inspired and it was one of those performances where they were just flying into New Zealand and being inventive in one of those games that increasingly Argentina are capable of doing after the sadness of that first round. But yeah, I mean, with South Africa having lost that first game, only just winning the second, Australia had two early injuries to key players that obviously didn't help them.

35:08Elgan: But then that Argentina win as well, it's, yeah, after the first two of six rounds, the rugby championship is looking very interestingly poised. And we'll see how the next two doubleheader weekends go.

35:18Alfie: And in this week's episode of overreactions to just a couple of performances, I have seen it suggested or questioned at least, are South Africa in a bit of decline? because yes they won this week but it was unconvincing frankly they were pretty clunky they just had enough in the end I think Andre Pollard was crucial to them in terms of just a simplified game plan kicking the points from the tee what have you made of the spring box so far because progression is never linear and we usually see teams peak and trough a little bit in between World Cups do you think South Africa might be in a in a period of I wouldn't necessarily call it

35:54Elgan: transition but development maybe i think it's one of these things where we've seen sort of the the prologue of possible worries and and as they ramp up with these two big games in new zealand against the all blacks that'll be just another marker we see oh wow this actually really is you know if they go to eden park and wellington and and lose both times convincing to new zealand then that's when it really crystallizes where they are right now but but certainly the the sort of veneer of invincibility that perhaps South Africa and the Springboks have been building up around them has certainly been pierced by those those two matches against the Wallabies yeah I hope we from this

36:31Alfie: point on where you've had each side have played twice they've all won one and lost one I hope that it does continue to be possibly one of the most competitive rugby championships that we've seen for a long long time because there's question marks as we've just said over the Springboks you've got a resurgent Wallabies team who by the way have had to deal with so many injuries this year already losing Tom Wright who's got an ACL injury which is gutting because I think he's been on brilliant form this year but you lose him in the first half you've got Suelihi and Nick White that had head injury assessments we saw them lose Harry Wilson and Dylan Peach from the week before but you've got this resurgent Wallabies team that hopefully are in a much much better place Argentina have now beaten New Zealand at home so they've won a game you've got a New Zealand team who are capable of still being excellent but again there's not quite the formidable force previously i just hope we still it continues to be so competitive throughout the rest of this rugby championship i think it's set up absolutely brilliantly elgan what does your week look like so when we were recording the pod a week ago you were getting the train up to durham and you were up in the northeast for england's preparations this week what does it look like in terms of

37:39Elgan: covering the red roses the red roses will be doing some media that are playing at franklin's gardens in northampton on saturday so they're based in in that neck of the woods so they'll be conducting some media on tuesday they'll be announcing their team on thursday then captain's run on friday so there'll be a few trips north of london to uh up towards northampton for that and uh yeah building up to that game against samoa on saturday and next week on the pod we'll

38:03Alfie: be looking back at the second round of fixtures in the women's rugby world cup and all the other things happening across the game elgum pleasure as always we'll speak to you next week thank you for having me thanks very much for listening this has been the ruck the journalist rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times. Make sure you follow or subscribe from wherever you get your podcasts from.