Are these the most evenly matched Prem semi-finals ever?

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0:48Hello, this is The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times. Welcome along. We've got Prem semi-finals to look ahead to and to help me do just that. My name's Alfie Reynolds. I've got the Times rugby correspondent, Alex Lowe. Hi, Alex. Hello. And senior rugby writer. Have I got the title right? Charlie Morgan, good morning.

1:07Charlie Morgan: Right, reading off the script, you've nailed it, mate. Thank you. I was off script for that bit. Thank you very much. But I'll be on it for the rest of the pod so we can guide us through. Look, final weekend of the Prem to look back on, gents. Charlie, you were at Sandy Park. I was at the Rec for Bath Leicester. I think we both really enjoyed those games. The semi-final line-up is set as well. And later on in the pod, we'll have a little chat about Andy Farrell because the IRFU, chest out, announced that he is staying to the 2031 World Cup last week. Shall we start off with the Prem though? As I just said, Charlie, I think we both really enjoyed the matches we were at.

1:39Did we kind of get the final day drama that you were hoping for? Did the final weekend of the regular season deliver?

1:45Charlie Morgan: I think so. And it was different for, as it was always going to be, it was different in a season that's been sort of a wash with tries. It's been fast and loose. There was more tension. Weather helped a little bit. It was a greasy surface in both games. It certainly was at Sandy Park, even if it didn't sort of team with rain. And it was pretty wet at the wreck as well. It was 5-3 to Saracens on the stroke of halftime. And Exeter scored sort of to fit the game, really, with a Charlie Bracken yellow card happening as well. But it had been tense and it had been just been edgy. The consequences were really heavy and you could feel that.

2:17Charlie Morgan: And I guess it's a bit of an indictment on the rest of the season that there haven't been too many of those games. But it was really enjoyable to have it back and timely as well. Well, speaking of the conditions, yeah, in Bath, one of those evenings where I really felt for the people that are paying north of£100 to sit in that stand and get absolutely soaked because it was chucking it down. But Charlie's right, I think, Alex, in that upon reflection, I really enjoyed Bath Leicester. Upon reflection, it almost wasn't because of the quality. It was because of what was on the line and that something was at stake.

2:46It felt like a really good afternoon in that regard.

2:48Alex Lowe: I actually know someone who was sitting in the stand. amazing Tom Alwantinoff a mate of ours had put a lovely picture of that lovely picture you get of the wreck birthday treat and so I messaged him going oh well done mate you deserve it he went bought my own tickets it's pouring with rain so yeah so he sat through it soaking wet but yeah I think what's great about what we love about these big games where there's a lot riding on them as you get deeper into competition whether it's the Prem or a World Cup knockout as the game in Exeter was essentially a quarterfinal, every moment becomes bigger.

3:23Alex Lowe: So every tackle, you feel that every moment in the game can be decisive. So every tackle becomes big. Every turnover you feel could swing the momentum. And that's what becomes engrossing about these games. It can be low scoring. And the ultimate game in the last few years, World Cup final 2023, low scoring game, but it just meant that every moment in that game, every contest felt like it could have an impact on the final score, even if it's not a trifest.

3:49Charlie Morgan: Totally. You want the palpable consequences behind everything. And as you were talking there, I was thinking about big test matches, Lions test matches, where they turn on tiny things, breakdown turnovers, scrum penalties, things like that. At Sandy Park, there were really obvious moments when you thought, that's going to be big in the final shake-up. And it was towards the back end of the first half. Saracen's knocking at the door. They conjure a chance with Fergus Burke, make a brilliant break, linking with Rottie Shaggin. and it's Henry Slade who was phenomenal both sides of the ball and in every aspect as a leader as well.

4:21Charlie Morgan: He gets back with Paul Brown-Bampo to force a knock-on. Surrey still have another chance which they miss with Andrea Zambanin getting in line-out still and he's been amazing all season. And then in that little passage either side of half-time that's where it's won. And that just, it was great. It was clearly as essentially a quarter-final but a regular season game to have, for there to be so much riding on the little moments that's what we want and that was what was so great to sort of experience.

4:47Alex Lowe: On that moment, on that tackle, Henry Slade tackle, he was unbelievable all day. When you see, we were messaging afterwards, when you see Henry Slade commanding a game on both sides of the ball, but particularly with the ball in hand with his kick, it's one of the great sights in rugby because he just has a, the way he moves is so smooth. The way he plays at the game is so aesthetically pleasing to watch. But that tackle was critical. However, my first thought watching it was, Carl Dixon's going to give a penalty try here.

5:16Charlie Morgan: Off of that rule where you dive on someone.

5:19Alex Lowe: Because Paul Brown Bampo came in after the tackle had been made and sort of fell on Rotimi Sagan. And I don't think it was a penalty or a penalty try, but I've seen Carl Dixon give it twice. Twice, yeah. So as soon as I saw that happen, I was like, oh.

5:34Charlie Morgan: I hadn't even thought of that. But yeah, that would have been very loud booing.

5:39Alex Lowe: You see, they've done it for tackling the man off his feet. I remember two occasions he's definitely done it twice

5:45Charlie Morgan: and I think I think it's two Exeter twice I think it's in Leicester Exeter games that's really interesting yeah the thing to to highlight about Henry Slade as well as all that real elegance he plays with maybe being left footed kicker helps and his distribution is really silky and stuff but he's tough as well he is really tough really fit which is why England got him to basically lead that Felix Jones blitz stroke hammer whatever we're allowed to call it and yeah I mean, I wrote in my match report whether or not he adds to his 74 caps and he can't be doing much more to do that. He's just been a great for Exeter and it was really cool that he was part of a famous day there.

6:24Yeah, totally. Speaking of fine moments, imagine if an Orlando Bailey misconversion, which hit the post, could have been the difference between Leicester being third or fourth. In the end, actually, it wouldn't have mattered because Exeter got that bonus point try. In terms of the semifinals then, Northampton Leicester on Friday, Bath Exeter on Saturday. Are these the most open Prem semifinals we've had for a while? What do you think?

6:48Charlie Morgan: I'm so bad at doing this. I'm so bad. In my head, I was hoping you'd say since last season. Yeah, definitely. Now, this is the part of the pod, Charlie, where I try and get you to have a hot take. You're like, chill out. Well, I think it's certainly the most I can remember away teams having a shout because I think this top four has been potentially more level than we've thought. I think Bath and Saints have been the eminent sides for two years, notwithstanding Saints kind of slipping in the league last year, but they made up for that in the Champions Cup. Those two have made strides and maybe raised the bar.

7:23Charlie Morgan: But I think Leicester have been quietly consistent and have looked particularly steely this year under Jeff Parling with that sort of more of a willingness and an ability to move the ball. They've married up their game really well. And Exeter, I just think the remarkable thing about Exeter is how well they've gelled. Because I think they've, so four signings for them come to mind. In Zambanin, who we've mentioned, Tom Hooper, Lenikitao and Stephen Varney. And it's so unusual for all of that to hit the ground running and be so effective so quickly. And I would highlight Henry Slade as somebody who's really good at that.

7:57Charlie Morgan: He's really galvanising force. Whether or not he's been massively influential for England, And I think England have sort of valued how he embeds players like Marcus Smith, for example, and is sort of an experienced head for them. But I think what the two away sides have in Leicester and Exeter are tough, gnarly packs with a lot of depth. They can go 6-2 if they want. I think that's just really important. And if they're going to stick in the set-piece fight, they're not going to get blown away, as sides tend to do in those away semifinals. I think they could take it deep. I mean, and Leicester have, albeit at Welford Road, pumped Saints just a month ago.

8:35Charlie Morgan: And Exeter, I was at the wreck in January for Exeter getting really close to Bath. Bath needed an absolutely mad pick-and-go sequence, I think, of 20, 30 phases, I want to say, unless I'm misremembering that, to rescue themselves. So it's, yeah, we're set up for really close, more games with really a lot, so much palpable consequences on every play, which is great.

8:58Alex Lowe: Definitely, definitely. I think, am I right in saying that the home team wins the semi-final about 80 % of the time? Yeah. So your question is, is this as open as you can remember? Yeah, I think, as Charlie says, the percentage chance of an away win is much higher than 20 % in both of these games. And Exeter come into this with such a, you know, we talk about what makes teams effective, identity and understanding. I'd add he's not a new signing, but he feels like one. Harvey Skinner at 10 has blossomed suddenly into this super consistent, really effective 10. So at Exxon, they're on a roll. They have the momentum.

9:38Alex Lowe: They have a real deep understanding of who they are and how they're playing. They won't fear going to the wreck. Now, Bath, who've wobbled a bit since losing to Bordeaux in the Champions Cup, they also have a very deep, deep understanding of how to play and who they are. And I think that makes that a real seismic contest. And then I think of all the spicy semifinals we've had before, Northampton Leicester in particular, but the idea of Tigers going to Franklin's Gardens with who they've become this season. Like that league game was, there was a bit of pantomime fisticuffs in that game. It could probably boil over on Friday night.

10:18Alex Lowe: It's going to be epic.

10:18Charlie Morgan: I was at that first one and just loved, yeah. There was an element of pantomime to it, but the feeling there was packed out. It was great. It's obviously hard to replicate for games that aren't the East Midlands derby. But I left that thinking, jeez, if every Prem game had that much spite about it, you don't want... It's great that England players get on, but I don't want to see it when they're playing for their clubs, you know what I mean? It's also one of those things you can't manufacture, can you? Because there it's actually real. It's funny, though, me asking that question of, are these the most open Prem semi-finals for a while?

10:49because I'm very conscious that I'm probably being such a prisoner of the moment and that if we went back and listened to episodes of the pods going back years ahead of the semifinals, we're always building it up in that kind of way. But it does feel a little different this year, as you have both touched upon. I know previous years in the Prem, one and two has basically been locked in from a long way out, whereas even though I think most of us would have had Saints and Bath as the two best teams in the league, and they are one and two, it doesn't feel like they have quite as much of a stranglehold on those positions as we have seen from teams in previous years.

11:18Alex Lowe: Just another thought. that's just occurred to me. Like I'm quite pro innovation in the Prem. I like a lot of what they try and do. Not all of it works. Not all of it has a massive impact, but you've got to try these things. One of the ideas they want is to have work built towards a neutral semifinals day. So you have both games back to back at say Villa Park or Old Trafford or something, which I love the idea of the event the day out, but that would take something away from these particular games. The spice on these games is added to because they'll be in tight small grounds. There'll be Tigers travelling to Northampton, wanting to turn over Franklin's Gardens.

11:56Alex Lowe: I like the idea of something to build towards, but it would actually take the edge off these two semifinals for me if these were being played at a big neutral stadium somewhere.

12:06Charlie Morgan: It also takes off the edge off what you earn, right? So you earn that home semifinal. And in France, they have the neutral ones, but they have the previous round, which is the barrage, where they do have the home advantage that you've earned. And then the teams that go straight through to those neutral home semis have the benefit of a week off, which is key in the top 14.

12:25Alex Lowe: If you expand the prem, you open the opportunity for that extra round. But part of the charm and excitement about these two semis is that these two stadiums are going to be packed to the rafters. It's going to be spiced. It's going to be so physical. There'll be some rugby played as well. It's going to be wicked. And I think, as you guys have said, you can make a case for all of these teams winning these semifinals, which isn't always the case. I was quite impressed by Leicester on the week, and I think they would actually view it as a bit of a missed opportunity against the Bath side that are not on their best form, are they?

12:56Certainly since the Champions Cup semifinal. Leicester I think look like a team that are quite well set up for knockout end of season rugby like I would back them to get themselves through a semi-final. Exeter have been as you've said Charlie this team have had such an amazing regeneration this year. They have weapons that you think will be able to hurt Bath who as I say yes they're second but they still didn't look overly convincing. They lost the week before to Bristol in a game they probably should have won. They just about got over the line against Leicester in tricky conditions. Yeah, I just find it really fascinating because you can look at all these teams.

13:29I think you can make a really good case for why you think they'll end up getting to the final.

13:33Charlie Morgan: It felt like Bath have needed a second win for a little while, haven't they? And I know they'll hope that Finn Russell comes back for this semifinal, which would be key. Barnsley was writing about that in his match report as well, that he is key for them. Yeah, yeah, they need that because they're not sort of, I don't feel that they've connected very well. They're the tight stuff with being really clinical. They have it at times, but not consistently over the whole season. and maybe that's kind of more, that's more sort of easily explained away by the fact they lost Lee Blackett at the beginning of the season, brought in Martin Gleeson and that's just, it's just a new voice in charge of things is not the easiest thing to bed in without a pre-season.

14:08Charlie Morgan: So yeah, they've, the other thing for them is fighting on two fronts, which they did, but only in the Challenge Cup last season has probably taken a little bit more out of them. Will Stewart is a big kind of absentee for them because then they get the one, two point, And Thomas de Teut has been, again, one of the best players in the league, but he would be fresher if he'd had, and their set piece would be stronger over the course of the 80 minutes with Will Stewart there too. But that's great. That's sort of in a league with a salary cap. That's what you want. You want it to be hard to retain.

14:43Charlie Morgan: And I think the Prem has been that, clearly has been that over the last six years. and yeah and it's great that it's been hard for Bath it's great that they haven't sort of walked it and actually when we think about those you said that I certainly think that these four sides anyone could win the whole thing and that's exactly where you want to be. And we should mention actually even though it was defeat for Saris and their season is over the end of a proper end of an era here not just the expression. Mark McCall I mean the question I had for both of you is has anyone been a more influential figure in English club rugby over the last 15 years than Mark McCool at Saracens?

15:19No, no.

15:20Alex Lowe: The only figure who'd come close would be Rob Baxter. Yeah. And then the whole undercurrent of that rivalry and what might Exeter have won had everyone been playing by the same rules. Not many of the players exist from those days, but fans remember it and the coaches remember it and we remember it. So he'd be the only one and you may say, and let's see how things pan out with this new Exeter team he could go on and rival Mark McCall but not just for trophies and all extra fans would say well some of those trophies have an asterisk against them but not just for trophies, they won European Cups where there is no salary cap requirement to win the European Cup they were successful in Europe but I think for setting the standards for what modern day players can expect in terms of a culture and coaches who look after of the individual and really what they what they stand for as people I think he's been he's been outstanding and then for a minute the benefit to England and English rugby the way that that academy those academy prospects have been nurtured and coached to become you know Sarasota's got themselves in trouble because they they had academy players who went from academy players to British and Irish Lions in the blink of an eye suddenly how do you afford to keep them all But he's been instrumental in the development of some of the best players to have ever worn an England jersey, never mind best players in the premiership.

16:47Alex Lowe: And I've always really admired how understated he is as an individual. I think we all enjoy those coaches who are open and happy to show the full range of personality down the microphone or when we interview them. he's not one of them but I really admire the fact that and that he's just himself and it genuinely is all about everybody else so you know it's impossible to tell the Mark McCall story without referencing the salary cap situation but what he achieved as a coach and with those players and with those people marks him aside from anybody else I think um maybe other than Rob Baxter because of of the work that he did in building Exeter up but yeah I I don't think anyone else has had the same impact on the Prem or the England team as big as Mark McCall.

17:38Charlie Morgan: 100%. He was talking about, we've got five, ten minutes with him after the game and he just despises those duties, doesn't he? He absolutely hates doing them because he's so understated. But he spoke about his gratitude and he spoke about, somebody said, will you miss the most? And he said the coach's room at Saracens, which we can sort of picture at OAs where they train. And he said, oh, it's a place of honesty, a place of loyalty. in a place where you have sort of free conversations about the game. And he's going to be involved sort of in a very peripheral capacity, I believe, with Saracens.

18:11Charlie Morgan: We were talking afterwards, I can't imagine him, the last thing he would want to be is overbearing at all, because again, that's the sort of individual he is. I think a big mark of any legacy is the state that they leave the club in. And although I think it's the first time that Saracens have missed the playoffs in consecutive years since the season before he actually started as head coach. So they've been through a little bit of a dip there. But if you think about the fact that Charlie Bracken has looked excellent as we touched there, guys like Noah Kalori have come through the academy. Oli Hartley's settled and is going to push towards England stuff.

18:45Charlie Morgan: Fergus Burke has been signed as Owen Farrell's sort of successor. And I think this season will be a seminal one as far as how he settles and pushes on. Yeah, and then you look at who they're bringing in for next year. George Martin, Alfie Barbary, Thomas Williams. those are three potentially transformational signings. And I think we're going to look back at the foundations Mark McCall has laid as well as what he's achieved as far as trophies and everything. And his stock is only going to grow when he's out of the game.

19:19Alex Lowe: The other point I should have made is his influence on coaching. So look at the names who are working elsewhere who've all at some point worked with Mark McCall. And you're talking between the England head coach, Steve Borthwick, the Ireland head coach, Andy Farrell, Phil Morrow, who's now the sort of, what's his actual title with England? Like head of performance, but basically like England went, had to prize him away from Saracens because he's so highly regarded. Alex Sanderson at Sale. There are lots, Paul Gustard has worked with England now in charge of Stade Francais. all these guys have benefited from their time working with Mark McCall and so that's just another area that I think he deserves huge credit and he's leaving a year earlier than was planned and I think the year coming up will be tricky for Saracens because Brendan Venter will come in Brendan Venter has always been attached to the club as a mentor but he is so different to Mark McCall in character I think and personality

20:23Charlie Morgan: so he was there he was two seats away from me on Saturday and was noticeably I think the loudest of the coaches there

20:32Alex Lowe: yeah it'll be a change and I've heard Saracen's players say they're slightly nervous about it but I think that could be a really positive thing he'll come in like a fresh I'm going to say a fresh breeze he'll be much stronger than that like a bit of a cyclone coming in I think Brendan Venter but that's exciting if you're a player but yeah Mark McCall hands over

20:53Charlie Morgan: It's going to be your ace for us. It's going to be brilliant for us.

20:56Alex Lowe: Mark McCall hands over the reins of a, you know, there's a body of work there that you'll have to go some to replicate anywhere. And even you could argue because of his impact on other coaches and because of his impact on players who became huge for England, you could argue that even if Rob Baxter couldn't deliver one or two more titles for Exeter, the overall benefit to the English game, there won't be anyone to match him. Yeah, it's a legacy that takes some beating. Just before we get on to chatting about Andy Farrell, shall we round up the other teams, end of the regular season? So Bristol ended up finishing sixth.

21:28They were way ahead of Sale, who were in seventh. Gloucester ended up coming eighth, which reminds me of an expression you used earlier this season on the pod, Charlie, that it blows your brains to smithereens. The eighth in the Prem gets Champions Cup. But Gloucester in the Champions Cup, Harlequins with how much they spend and close to the salary cap come ninth. And then Newcastle are bottom. They only won two games all season. So a couple of questions for you. oh I thought we'd rattle through this because it would cover off a lot of the other sides

21:54Charlie Morgan: most disappointing season yeah sale for me I think they had designs on the top four I think if they'd you know ifs and buts but they could have had seen certainly seen more of the more of the I'm not sure they've played together at all this season if if they have it's been very very sort of fleeting and they just haven't got much together at all Alex Anderson has taken and I was reading some of his quotes afterwards and he is desolate. There is, to step on what we're going to get into, there are reasons for positivity. They've recruited well, but they just never seem to get a foothold in this season whatsoever.

22:34Yeah, I had sale written down, Alex.

22:36Alex Lowe: Yeah, I would say the same. I would also give a word to Bristol, not because they're about where I thought they would be, but they did threaten more early on. Frightened to deceive almost, yeah. They've been struck by injuries. and they end up having to field a full English 23 at the weekend, which was never going to be strong enough, I don't think. But they had to for EQP reasons. And one of the reasons for that was because they've been unable to field so many of their English players because of all their injuries. So that's undone them a bit. So I'd say from pre-season, definitely sell. But from the point where you thought Bristol might have a shot here, they haven't been able to sustain that.

23:11Alex Lowe: And so for that perspective, I'd say them as well. Yeah, I think it is quite revealing in a way that neither of you mentioned Quinns. And I agree with you, by the way. But it's almost an insult to Harlequins that they're not the most disappointing season. Because despite the fact that they pay close to the cap, they have been so dreadful. And for me, they're the team that for my next question, which side do you think are under the most pressure? Whether that's kind of going into the summer or heading into next season, having to rebound from this season. I would put Harlequins because I think for that club, the stature of the club, the money we know that they spend for them to get it so horribly wrong.

23:42Once again, I think there's a lot of pressure on Harlequins.

23:44Alex Lowe: and also the kind of implementation of the new coaching setup has to work for them you know this this global search which really ends up with Robbie Dean's coming in on a consultancy and some backroom changes quite a lot of upheaval behind the scenes medical department people have come in there've been changes there so the players will feel some change but outwardly the the fans and and the rest of us will, there'll be pressure, huge pressure on Laurie Dalrymple and on that club for there to be signs of improvement because it'd be very, very easy to go immediately, well, hang on, your global search resulted in...

24:23Alex Lowe: The guy already there. The guy already there carrying on and an advisor coming in who won't be there full time. So huge pressure there. There'll be pressure at Sale.

24:33Charlie Morgan: I've had Sale. I think partly just because I think, I agree with everything you've said about Harlequins they've got to hit the ground running but they should be maybe we can help with getting the understanding out there that it's going to be a gradual project for them certainly if you look at their incoming and outgoing sort of player their player turnover for next year suggests they're going to be relying heavily on younger players and they've got I think George Furbank people keep saying they need to bolster their type 5 they do but I think George Furbank can really give them really give them a lot in attack a lot of direction to their attack and that's going to be very important.

25:10Charlie Morgan: But Stefan Lovies gave a really interesting interview. He said Elliot Williams, who's in England under 20, Locke, he said he could be at the next World Cup. He's that good, which is a massive shout. But it shows that that's the calibre of player. Josh Bellamy was on the bench against Saints for Harlequins as well. These players now that are coming through, Harlequins have to pick and stick because they've lost too many of them as we have covered very well. So for that reason, next season, I think, is a season that Sale will have to kick on, given who they've recruited. I think Harlequins will have another season, at least, of consolidation.

25:46Charlie Morgan: But yeah, they're certainly in a disappointing place that they need to climb out of. Marcus Smith is in a fascinating position in his career, isn't he? This might be a talking point for another time. Been a bit better the last few weeks, I think. No, he has. But I look at him kind of almost since 23 World Cup, which was when we first started seeing him at fullback for England. he's been like basically a fullback for England hasn't been given much of a shot has he at the 10 jersey I suppose he did have that autumn campaign where England were losing and he was actually playing quite well and then they kind of made changes there was a fascinating interview

26:17Alex Lowe: that Jamie George did uh on a on the pod with Ben Youngs and Dan Cole in which he talked through how the England leadership sort of works and at one point you said that Jamie George Finn Smith and George Ford they're the sort of the game plan brains they are from the player's perspective what they want to bring to the coaches is devised by those three and i thought marcus's the absence of marcus's name was telling in that and that he's not if he's not even a voice in in the players conversation about how they want the game to run then that that shows how peripherally is to to the to the leadership of the game plan and therefore almost reinforces that he's considered

26:55Charlie Morgan: as a 15 in that in that setup it's almost like he's considered a wild card right yeah it's like he's on the bench to cover 15 cover 10 and if we're really up against it we'll chuck him on and that yeah his I actually hadn't thought that was a real I would echo that's certainly worth a listen that conversation but yeah I hadn't thought of that but I did think my reaction to it was oh George Ford is still peripheral when it feels like Finn Smith's going to be the man moving forward but yeah for Mark Smith not to be in that picture at all and then you couple the England stuff with how Harlequins have gone really for the last four years and I'm looking at Marcus Smith he's such a good bloke he's such a professional isn't he that he would never come out and say this but I can't help but look at him kind of neutrally and think you would have benefited from getting out of that club earlier he's not the only

27:45Alex Lowe: I mean like Caden Murley is probably the same I'd be looking at Chandler Cunningham to really lead next season at Quinns

27:52Charlie Morgan: shout out for Alex Donbrandt has had an excellent season he's been good

27:55Alex Lowe: yeah he has but if who was the player who Sef-Lavis mentioned

28:00Charlie Morgan: Elliot Williams right

28:01Alex Lowe: if he really does have a chance of making the World Cup in 12 months time effectively Quinn's going to have

28:07Charlie Morgan: Scott atare exactly

28:08Alex Lowe: as part of a type part of the current Quinn's type 5 like a you know and that's back to your point about Marcus like it just the whole environment doesn't help these individually good players shine at the moment and that's where Furbank has a really important role to just try and help build just bring leadership as well as his own skills help build something because and yeah you're right they're not going to turn it I don't see Quinns doing what Exeter have done in 12 months and go from also rounds to semi-finalists I don't not impossible but I don't see it because I think there's so much that needs to be fixed but the pressure is maybe less on the coaches it's but on the club it's huge because I think they've fallen short in delivering the management setup that they wanted to deliver and so therefore this has to work for them otherwise the pressure which is already pretty intense aimed at the very top will only grow.

29:03Yeah final question who has the most reason for positivity all of those sides that we're kind of talking about here I suppose if we're looking at Sale, Gloucester, Quinns, Newcastle which of those has the most reason to feel positive off the back of what has undoubtedly been a disappointing season?

29:19Charlie Morgan: You might laugh at my answer because probably somebody said this in this section every year, but Gloucester, I think, I think more with, you know, Chris Boyd there as a sort of sounding board for coaches, potentially giving George Skivonton more scope to really focus on the coaching matters. I think Rob Burgess can be really influential from his kind of position sort of backroom, another backroom position he was really important to how Bath turned things around and I'm just looking, sort of skimming through the sort of ins and outs of every club here but Jack Morgan and Dowey Lake I think are players who can hit the ground running and transform teams straight away as we've seen from the guys who've come in at Exeter and I know they're losing a few as well Gloucester but yeah clearly Newcastle is a really really really exciting project and that should that's clearly going to be a big upturn straight away but Gloucester shout out to Charlie Atkinson as well they've had another fantastic season

30:19Alex Lowe: I'm just fascinated to see what Newcastle do because you chuck in you have that much turnover chuck in that many players Nottingham Forest did it and somehow managed to make it work but it doesn't it's often quite difficult it's hard yeah to just bring a team together you know as well as your recruitment is it's not just about how good that player is but it's about how quickly they build the relationship with those alongside them how quickly they understand each other so there's a lot of interest about how rapidly Newcastle can form into something now they've got more investment again I don't think that's a one season project if I was a Newcastle fan I'd be really excited about the direction and I'd be intrigued to see how quickly this all comes together but I would agree with Charlie.

31:01Alex Lowe: I think Gloucester have been a team who've underperformed for way too long in the Prem. They shouldn't be a team who are 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th in the league with the history, with the stadium, with the fans that they have. I think Chris Boyd could be huge for them. Would they be the two best players signed by a Prem team for next year? In Dowie Lake and Jack Morgan? I mean, Dowie Lake would have been a Lion if he'd been fully fit that year. Jack Morgan is a test Lyon. Players from outside the Prem, certainly. I'm trying to think there's signings internally, isn't there? Like I look at Thomas Williams to Saris and players like...

31:38And Barbary.

31:39Charlie Morgan: If Fehi Fignangafnofo, the Hurricanes wing, turns up at Newcastle then I think that's going to be very exciting and I'll promise to learn how to pronounce his name properly. That's a genuinely X-factor signing.

31:58Alex Lowe: But in terms of Alfie Barbary to Saracens Saracens are getting a hell of a player but in terms of upgrade and impact you've got the Wales captain and one of the outstanding batterers in the Northern Hemisphere, British and Irish Lion flanker, that's you I know they're losing Thomas Williams but I think that's more than offset by those two guys coming in who can drive everything, it's not just how good they are and with Chris Boyd I would like to see Gloucester threatening top four next year, I really would because it would be great. And Charlie Atkinson has matured massively. He'd probably be second only to Billy Searle for me in fly half of the season in the Prem.

32:40Alex Lowe: I think he's been superb.

32:42Charlie Morgan: Yeah, Charlie Atkinson, my view on Charlie Atkinson, and I always could use him as a sort of example of the lack of depth that England had behind those top three guys because he was getting caps and he was involved in squads without nailing down a position in a Prem side. And after this season, you feel like, and actually to be fair, he's played well for England A too, hasn't he? So I think it's been great to just watch just how good he is. Really, really good player. I'll be honest, for me with Gloucester, similarly to how I view Quinn's, I'll believe it when I see it. I've seen too many seasons of them being disappointing and underperforming.

33:21Alex Lowe: I think there's, you know, with Atkinson, Atkinson, Llewellyn, there's something there. and the two Welsh boys coming in, it feels like there's an opportunity there. So I would be hopeful for Gloucester and just really interested in Newcastle and how they pull all of that together and forge a team out of basically a whole new squad. I think that's the thing. The reason I would say Newcastle for the team with the most positivity, I probably would say Newcastle almost because their base has been so low previously that it's the first time in ages that if you're a Red Bulls fan, then you're actually looking at it thinking, we could actually be a team that does something more significant in this league because your team has just existed in the prem because they know they can't get relegated exactly they're spending or have been spending half of the available salary less than half of the available salary cap they've just been treading water with no ambition other than to not go bust and now if you're talking about excitement and optimism you know that they're going to build up towards the salary cap now as harlequin show it's a guarantee of nothing it's a guarantee of nothing but if you're a fan you're like well that means that they they will be investing in players that they'll be recruiting

34:32Charlie Morgan: guys like charlie's mate from super rugby who fehy who's been electric you know uncapped but

34:39Alex Lowe: electric in super rugby like they are there is a that that's something for for red bulls fans to

34:45Charlie Morgan: be excited by one um take that you can edit out if you want because it could be total garbage but But it would be really interesting to see how far Newcastle, if Newcastle do spend up to cap, and they do spend sort of to the cap that is allowed, including marquee players and all the credits you can get, how much further will layers go because of where they are in the country and because of the cost of living? Is that even a, that would be really interesting. I remember Tobias Mattson when he was at Harlequins saying, you know, it's more expensive down here, isn't it? There's no London waiting in cap.

35:18Charlie Morgan: Yeah. So it would be really interesting to see how that plays out, just another sort of little subplot. Totally. We'll leave the Prem stuff there. If you want to drop us an email, then the email address is theruckatthetimes.co.uk. We'll have a quick break, and the other side of this, we'll finish by chatting about Andy Farrell signing a contract extension to remain Ireland head coach until the 2031 Rugby World Cup.

35:41So the news announced last week, Andy Farrell has signed a contract extension. He's going to be the Ireland head coach until the 2031 Rugby World Cup. I described this earlier in the pod, Alex, as the IRFU being chest out, getting this bit of business done. Because of all the talk of looking ahead to post-World Cup and Steve Borthwick in England and England fans wanting Andy Farrell to be the new head coach, the IRFU have gone, no, no, no, don't worry about that, locking him down for another five years.

36:08Alex Lowe: Yeah, I think it's a very smart piece of business. If you're Ireland, why would you not? there's a guy who is deeply ingrained in in the Irish life his his son's at school in Dublin he loves he loves living in Dublin he he's had a huge impact on on the game there he's got a new project now really with with this team and I think they've they've from Farrell's perspective it allow I think it probably allows him to be the Lions head coach without major disruption he can take the time off that he took last time, but can also work on something longer term with Ireland. And I really think that Ireland would have looked at the threat of elsewhere, you know, and thought, well, if we could nail him down.

36:52Alex Lowe: He wants, I spoke to Connor Murray a few weeks back for an interview and he was like, I don't think he'll want to move. And I don't see any reason why the IRFU would not want to keep him for all he's achieved. And for, you know, he's still as energetic and enthusiastic and committed to coaching that team. Feels like a big statement to me though from the IRFU because he has been there a little while. You would have thought that in many ways next year's World Cup would have been a good time or it would have been a time to step away, which would have made sense, move on to something new. To nail him down feels like a really big coup.

37:24Alex Lowe: Which is why I think it doesn't reflect brilliantly on England because you're right, two World Cup cycles would have been a natural time for everyone to look for a new challenge. and the obvious challenge that could have been presented to him would be the England job. Post Six Nations, it looked like that would be something that the RFU should really have attacked. What I find odd is that they then went into their Six Nations review and with question marks over whether the England head coach would continue even beyond the summer, they emerged from the review, nailed on backing Steve Borthwick through to the World Cup and their position even before the Six Nations had been, well, Borthwick will have done really only one World Cup cycle.

38:10Alex Lowe: So all things being equal, we could see him as the England head coach through beyond this next World Cup. Then suddenly all of that became uncertain because of how badly things unraveled. It's not just about losing games. There was much more to it, as we've discussed, how badly things unraveled in the Six Nations that placed that question mark over him. And now without playing a game, he's been solidified through to the World Cup and therefore he's given the RFU leadership the confidence to support him. And meanwhile, the RFU have gone, right, we'll snap up our guy and take him off the table.

38:43Charlie Morgan: And Farrell taking himself off the table, to reiterate what you're saying, it shows what a prospect the England job isn't for him. I think in the last Six Nations we saw two things, or at least two things but first being how fickle the sort of approval rating can be for test coaches Gregor Townsend's dips then went back up again and kept going up until the Ireland game Steve Borthwicks carried on dipping Andy Farrell's if you remember after the first game was pretty low among Ireland fans and then I thought his I thought Ireland's performance ironically at Twickenham really spelled out what he's excellent at, which is rallying players towards a cause, which clearly Ireland were fiercely motivated for that game.

39:34Charlie Morgan: But I think also it was quite significant that he produced a really tactically smart, accurate performance with players like Robert Balakun on the wing and Stuart McCloskey and tapping into sort of new talents that he's not really used a lot of over his tenure so far. Now, I think over the next part of his tenure with Ireland, from what I gather what Ireland supporters will want to see is a more explicit if not regeneration of the squad then a sort of evidence that they can carry on past the next World Cup they can challenge it this one that's upcoming and then really build for 2031 and I thought all of the tone of the statements that were coming out not just from Farrell but from David Humphries and from the union and the union as a whole was the best is yet to come and We're confident in our pathways and we're confident in the players coming through that we can regenerate the squad and be in a stronger position for future World Cups as they were in 2023 when they absolutely should have got further than they did.

40:38Alex Lowe: A bit like what we said about Harlequins and the pressure being on the leadership, who've backed a certain direction, that it has to work. I think Ireland re-signing Andy Farrell has just shone a light back on the England Six Nations Review, and all their eggs are in that Steve Borthwick basket. From the perspective of Conor O'Shea and Steve Borthwick and all their advisors, that has to work because what they haven't done is go out and plan for the the obvious replacement post-world cup one of the things i was going to ask you is what does this news about andy staying with ireland do to england's post-world well i think it shows that they want that they that england would want the steve borswick project to work at the world cup to such an extent that he continues beyond because although he did 23 that's viewed as a kind of very separate one-year project which I understand I think that's fair enough the idea of two World Cups being a coach's shelf life doesn't quite equate to Steve Borthwick because the first one was in those unique circumstances so I think this shines puts the focus straight back on that original position they were in pre-six nations which is they thought the best was yet to come from Steve Borthwick that he lead this England team to the World Cup and beyond.

41:58Alex Lowe: How they have managed to get to that point two months after placing a question mark over his future remains baffling and totally unclear. You know if it doesn't go well for England at the World Cup and it is the end for Borthwick then I think England then have to look within the Prem and a Johan van Graan. I don't think even with a year's rest Mark McCall would want to be the head coach but But he could easily be, if they change the structure, he could easily be a director of rugby type advisory figure. So again, it leaves, the only conclusion is that England are left backing Steve Borthick as their man through to this World Cup and beyond.

42:37Alex Lowe: And I think it's a missed opportunity to try and, you know, I think they, I don't believe they went all out to try and recruit Andy Farrell. Now, they might say they can't because they have a man in place already. and if they've been convinced enough through the review that his longer term vision is right then they have to be seen to back their man but the reason why Charlie said the England job is maybe not the enticing project that England fans would want it to be is absolutely right because Andy Farrell operates in a system where bar the sort of slight blip we've had with Leinster and Nina Abad's influence slightly moving Lensra away from what Ireland do which is a bit of challenge that they need to to deal with from an Ireland perspective he operates in a system where he has enormous control and everything is aligned and I don't believe that he that the English system is attractive to him in anywhere close to the same way now you know it'll come to a head but if England go and play in the summer and they have to rest their captain because he's had too much rugby that to me is indicative of a system that is not working now saracens will say well why should we arrest him because we pay for him and england will say well we pay for him and he's the captain but it shows a system that's not working that would never happen in ireland and so if you're so sorry but so if you're the island head coach and you're you're looking at the project a system i understand system which i can influence um a project i'm really excited by versus a job in England where the money would be better, I suspect.

44:14Alex Lowe: I'm certain the money would be better if he got recruited by England. But his influence is hamstrung by a system that doesn't suit him and he can't control the players and manage the players in the way he would want to. It's not very exciting. That's not a... It doesn't sell the England job very well, I don't think. Just quickly, do you think the Faye Woboso injury surgery decision is an example of the agreement in England working well at the moment? Yeah, I think I think the so I asked Pat Lam that because England sent their medics down to work with the Bristol medics over Ellis Genghis scan when he did his calf against Bath.

44:53Alex Lowe: And I asked him whether that is working well or not. essentially is it better to have England down or not because what if you have different opinions which we have seen with Fairo Boso in the past Patlam felt it is after some early teething problems that medical side of it is starting to work better and yeah if England are now saying that Fairo Boso could be available for the South Africa game in which case that would imply that yes that that is England starting to influence some medical decisions but it's wider than that It's not, you know, and that could be of benefit to Steve Borthwick. But the control that, and the influence, the control is probably not quite the right word, the influence that Andy Farrell could have in Ireland compared to what Steve Borthwick has in England.

45:39Alex Lowe: Yeah. It's quite different. And therefore, I think the environment in which Farrell would have to consider working if he was to come to England just wouldn't appeal in the same way as the job he's got now. Which is a real damning indictment, isn't it? And we should emphasize for our Irish friends and our Irish listeners that maybe even if the RFU had gone all guns blazing at Farrell, he may well not have wanted to come. Because as you said, he's based in Ireland. His family are in Ireland. They're happy there. He's working in a system that is clearly way better than the English system. But that is a real indictment on that English system, isn't it?

46:12That an English coach would rather stay in the Irish system because actually the way it's set up in England doesn't really appear. I think so.

46:18Alex Lowe: I don't believe he was presented with two options. Yeah. I don't think he was sitting at home in Sandy Mount weighing up what the RFU were offering him or what Ireland were offering him. I don't think he'd ever came anywhere close to that. But if it had done, and he'd compared simply what the jobs were, then I think his day-to-day job would be much more preferable to him in Ireland. The potential in England is always a thing that attracts people, because the talent pool is there and the number of players to choose from is so much greater than in Ireland. And that is always a thing that would attract.

46:52Alex Lowe: But the influence isn't there. And I think that counts against that England job to a lot of people. We'll leave it there. Do send us an email. Your views on Andy Farrell staying with Ireland. Missed opportunity for England. Does it reflect poorly on the RFU? You can have your say. Email us. The ruck at the times.co.uk. We'll be back with you next Monday to review, hopefully, two absolute crackers in Prem semi-finals. Alex, Charlie, do you know where you're heading? What game is going to be at? I am going to go to Bath Exeter on Saturday on Saturday nice

47:23Charlie Morgan: TBC but looking like the East Midlands for me there's no bad option though is there no there isn't there it isn't there's no bad option so we'll review all that next week we appreciate all of you that have been listening and watching Timesport on YouTube this has been The Ruck the journalist's rugby podcast from the Times and the Sunday Times